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Ep 11. Dreaming of Weaving Clouds and Inventing the Digital Jacquard Handloom with Vibeke Vestby
237 Plays5 months ago
In this episode of the No Ordinary Cloth Podcast, we speak with Vibeke Vestby, the inventor of the first-ever digital jacquard handloom.
She share about her passion for weaving as a child, her impatience with traditional looms and a trip to Italy that was pivotal in reimagining the 200 year old jacquard loom. Vibeke recounts her early inspiration, the technical evolution of the loom, and the collaborative process with the engineering company Tronrud, to bring her vision to life. Her persistence and determination results in the remarkable TC2 Digital Jacquard handloom.
Join us as Vibeke goes from teaching prisoners weaving to wanting to weave clouds and peonies and making a loom that will enable her and others to use the jacquard loom like a sketch book to quickly translate ideas and be a catalyst for creativity.
Vibeke also discusses her personal life, including how she became a trained pilot, and the importance of teamwork and curiosity in her groundbreaking work.
Tune in to learn how the TC2 digital loom, a symbol of potential, is revolutionising and democratising hand weaving, driving forward the ever-evolving ingenuity in textile weaving.
Connect with Vibeke Vestby and her team
Insta: @digitalweavingnorway
Connect with Mili Tharakan
Insta: @noordinarycloth
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mjtharakan/
Cover art: Photo by Siora, Photography on Unsplash
Music: Inspired Ambient, Orchestraman
Timestamp:
00:00:04: Introduction to the episode
00:00:28: Introduction to the main topic - The Loom
00:00:59: Introduction of the guest - Vibeke Vestby
00:04:49: Vibeke's passion for weaving and her early career
00:10:08: Vibeke's teaching experience in Norway's only prison for females
00:11:26: Vibeke's career at the College of Art and Design
00:11:36: Development of the first Weave Planner programme
00:12:12: Vibeke's learnings and experience at Silk Art Foundation in Lisio, Florence
00:15:04: The history of the Jacquard loom and its evolution
00:19:12: How the Jacquard loom revolutionised weaving
00:22:42: Vibeke's journey to creating the digital Jacquard handloom
00:23:13: Initial Challenges and Realisation
00:24:33: Funding and the First Prototype
00:28:29: The Difficulties of Bringing the Loom to Market
00:31:15: The Loom and its Scaleability
00:33:56: Market Adaptation and Customer Response
00:44:42: The Loom as a Tool for Generating Ideas
00:46:27: Vibeke's Background
00:49:05: Discussion on Traditional Norwegian Costumes
00:52:04: Vibeke's Interest in Flying and Pilot Training
00:57:56: Outlook on the Future of Creative Weaving
00:59:00: Current Projects and Interests
01:03:01: Host's Reflections and Takeaways from the Conversation
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:04
Speaker
Hey friends, thank you for joining me for another episode on the No Ordinary Cloth podcast, where we stitch together a rich tapestry of textile innovations, one episode at a time. So far, if you're familiar with the podcast, you would have realized that we focus mainly on the textiles itself, the innovative textiles our guests have created.
Focus Shift to New Loom
00:00:23
Speaker
But today we're actually going to discuss one of the oldest tools of our trade, the humble loom. Yes, the loom.
00:00:31
Speaker
But wait, this is not a history lesson on looms. This is about the making of a radically new loom and the story of the woman behind it.
Meditative Reflection on Weaving
00:00:40
Speaker
This topic is close to my heart because I love weaving. I could sit at the loom for hours and almost go into a trance while weaving. I think if you're a weaver, you understand what I mean. It is such a meditative process where you slowly see the threads of the loom dancing around to grow into patterns you've only imagined. It's quite magical.
Introducing Vibekke Vespi
00:01:01
Speaker
Our guest today is not just a weaving expert, she is someone who dared to completely reimagine the 200 year old Jacquard loom with the classic punch cards and the big wooden frames and the high harnesses and she's created a totally contemporary weaving machine that can sit in your studio.
00:01:21
Speaker
This is a jacquard loom without punch cards. The brilliant mind behind this machine is Vibekke Vespi, the inventor of the first ever digital jacquard hand loom. She has democratised the jacquard loom, calling it a sketchbook where your ideas can really start to take shape, making it a tool that we can play with and one that is accessible for everyone, even those who are new to weaving. If I can put this in sort of maybe computer language,
00:01:48
Speaker
It's a bit like she took the analytical engine version of the loom and redesigned it to be the MacBook Pro version. As it was for most inventors, she was decades ahead of her time. And it was not an easy path for her, but it was her sheer determination and persistence over the last 50 years that has kept her going to bring her dream to life. And she has given us today the loom that blows wide open the incredible possibilities of hand loom weaving
00:02:16
Speaker
while also saving weavers a ton of time and painstaking work. Even if you're not a weaver, stick around because there's so much to learn from this story today. So join me now as I speak to Vibekke to learn about the digital jacquard handloom that was created by a weaver for the weavers.
Meeting Vibekke Vespi
00:02:37
Speaker
Hello and welcome to V. Becky. It is an absolute joy to have you here with us today on the No Ordinary Plot Podcast. Having followed your work for many years, I finally got to meet you in person at the Tech Tech Steel show in April this year, which was just a month ago, but it feels a lot longer, right?
00:02:57
Speaker
In previous episodes here, we've talked about innovations in different materials that are used for textiles, like bio textiles, nano textiles, smart textiles. But you're the first guest on this podcast who's going to be talking about one of the most important technologies ever invented that enables us to make textiles.
Vibekke's Digital Loom Journey
00:03:16
Speaker
and that is the lume i mean it's such a little word the lume but it is so powerful and it can do so much and it's been around for centuries and evolved over time and today we're gonna learn from you all about the digital jacquardt lume that you've made which is an incredible tool in the hands of a weaver i'm just amazed at what it can do
00:03:34
Speaker
I have to tell you, when I first saw you standing next to the digital loom at Text Text Deal, it just suddenly hit me. Firstly, it's not every day that I meet someone who makes a new loom. So that's a privilege to have you here. And that too, someone who's a weaver that just decides that she wants to redesign the loom. Why would she do that? What was that journey like? I was so curious to get an answer to that question that I had to ask you immediately if you could be a guest. And I knew there would be a fascinating story to share about
00:04:04
Speaker
your journey. I'm so excited that you said yes immediately and that we could get you on so quickly. So I'm itching to ask you lots of questions and super excited about all that we're going to learn today. But apart from that, you're, I must say, you're also the first trained pilot I've had on the podcast. So that's another story that we have to get to here. So let's buckle up and get the show off the ground. Cause I know you're going to take us on an amazing journey.
00:04:32
Speaker
To start with, I would love to hear about your passion for weaving. I'm a weaver myself. I could talk about weaving all day, but I want to hear about you. How did you get started? What do you enjoy about weaving? Yeah, it should be a simple answer. I'm not quite sure. I know my grandfather gave me a small loom when I was four.
00:04:55
Speaker
And I thought it was just another toy, but I was weaving through a couple of scarves and stuff and liked it. But I think my grandmother was very good with textiles and taught me knitting, crochet.
00:05:11
Speaker
So I think weaving was just one out of many different things. So I kind of forgot about it until I was 18 and everybody started to talk about what do you want to become when you grow up. And I realized I had no real idea.
00:05:30
Speaker
But I thought I should try to explore what I really felt curious about. And that was weaving. So that was how I started. Was your granddad a weaver? No, I think actually he was a forester working with plants of all sorts. But no, I think I don't.
00:05:47
Speaker
know actually why he gave it to me. But I was hospitalized for a few weeks and I think they needed to come up with something that would keep me quiet and sitting in bed or something. So maybe that was part of it. What a precious gift really. And who knew that you would
00:06:05
Speaker
go down this incredible journey with that, which started at four years old. So you trained as a weaver, you know, in your sort of daily life today, when you're weaving, where do you find inspiration and what is your creative process like? I think I enjoy the problem solving part of weaving. For me, weaving is, in a way,
00:06:26
Speaker
like a riddle or a maze where you have to find the correct combination of weed structures and materials. And very often when I'm satisfied and I feel I found a good solution, I've lost interest. I think other people I know, they then start planning, oh, I'll make a big exhibition or I'll take this far. But then my curiosity has been kind of satisfied and I move on to something else.
00:06:53
Speaker
Love that you describe it as a puzzle that you want to solve. I can completely relate to that. You studied weaving at university with the hope of becoming a weaver or did you want to become a teacher? What was the thought in the beginning? The starting point, I think that the best weaving education in Norway at that time was to become a weaving teacher. So that was the starting point. And of course, the whole education was very focused on
00:07:20
Speaker
methods, techniques and principles and systems. In a way, it suited me well. But on the other hand, I felt there was never really anything that inspired me like to explore and investigate. So I think by the time I had finished my education, I was not quite sure how to proceed. So I'd chosen a specialisation subject the last year when I was exploring variations of twees.
Inspiration and Educational Journey
00:07:49
Speaker
And that's when I realized that back then before the computer programs, it was a nightmare of job to draw all these point papers on paper to kind of make a plan, what should I weave? And then I realized that the whole idea of weaving was too slow and too cumbersome and too non-creative. I was ready for looking for something else, but I was offered a job as an assistant at a textile
00:08:17
Speaker
laboratory at the school. They were working with external customers and doing more customized things. And my teacher there turned out to be a very big inspiration. She was talking about her textile research as if it was a detective story and like reading about a fragment of silk found somewhere and then matching another sample from another continent.
00:08:46
Speaker
Well, anyway, she kind of ignited that interest that weaving is culture and history and more of a puzzle or a review to resolve. So I stayed there for two years. And then Michael, the way was taking me to more textile education in Spain. Yeah, I thought now was the time to look into the
00:09:08
Speaker
artistic part of it, because I felt it was overwhelming with the techniques. After one year there, I came back more determined than ever that weaving is my thing, but I didn't really want to be a teacher. But the only job I found, I was really desperate to get an income after a whole year abroad. And so the job I found was to teach weaving in the only prison in Norway for females.
00:09:37
Speaker
That was
Challenges in Teaching Weaving
00:09:38
Speaker
a tough job, yes, after a month. They had looms in the prison, and this was something that the women used to spend time doing. Yes. Actually, it was more like teaching them a discipline, proper profession, so that when they were finished in the prison, they could maybe apply a job and earn money in an honest way. But this was a system that was from
00:10:04
Speaker
two centuries ago, you know, because there was no textile industry left in Norway. So the whole education was pointless. But anyway, they had the looms and and I got the job for a few months until I decided that I was not interested in teaching people who were not even slightly interested. One said that I'm not only spending time in prison, but I have to have to learn weaving as well.
00:10:28
Speaker
like an addition to the sentence. So I kind of eliminated a few paths. I knew I would not want to be a teacher for kids. I did not want to be a teacher for people who had other issues. I wanted to work with people who really, really wanted to go deeper into it.
00:10:50
Speaker
And out of nowhere, I was offered a job at the College of Art and Design in Oslo. So it was kind of straight from hell to heaven. Amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So that was well, they needed somebody with a strong background in weaving techniques and weaving theory. So I felt I fitted right in. The others in that art college was more
00:11:17
Speaker
interested in developing their expression, but they didn't know quite how. So I felt my knowledge came in very useful. Once I had gotten that job and they told me that as a university employee, I'm not only entitled to do my own research, but I have to. So they were like, what do you want to do? And then I said, well, I
00:11:39
Speaker
I think I'd like to look into computers because I think computing is very close to weaving and I want to find a faster way of mapping the weave structures. Which year was that? Yeah, this was in 1984.
00:11:55
Speaker
Oh wow! Okay, so you were talking with computers back then. Exactly. And its potential, amazing. Because this inspiring boss I had when I worked at that lab, she had shown an article which was from some American magazine and it was from 1976. And the title was, The Computer Learns How to Weave.
00:12:17
Speaker
And it was about somebody making weave patterns with X's and O's, I think. Very, very basic, but that was kind of lingering in my head. That nightmarish experience when I worked on all my own point paper drawings for twills made me realize.
00:12:34
Speaker
computers is the way forward. So you were definitely well ahead of your time. So when you proposed that as a research topic, did you have some idea of who you might collaborate with, how you would start learning about computers? My brother, my older brother was into mathematics and physics and of course studied at the university and he was the one who said, why don't you make a computer do this? So that was
00:13:00
Speaker
I kind of knew that it must be possible. And I signed up for a part-time course at the university called Computers in the Humanities or something. One of the teachers there was a friend of a friend or a friend from somewhere. So he helped me make the structure for the first Weave program.
Weave Planner Software Development
00:13:20
Speaker
So by the time this was going through two semesters, and by the end of that semester, we had made a Weave program called Weave Planner.
00:13:29
Speaker
which was launched in 86 and that was kind of a milestone because I could immediately apply it in my teaching at the school. So this was a software that was developed? Yes, yes. You could draw the threading and treadling or paint plan and see how the woven pattern would reflect that and immediately make changes like you could change
00:13:54
Speaker
from a straight threading to a pointed threading and go through all these permutations that are part of the basic weaving theory in no time. That does save a lot of time. Now we don't realize, because we do all of it on the computer now anyways, we forget how long it used to take to do all of this aberration before you even started weaving.
00:14:17
Speaker
I understand along the way you then spent some time in the beautiful old town of Liso in Florence, Italy at the Silk Art Foundation. Yes, it's a foundation. The only place I know of where they have hand operated Jacquard looms weaving silk designs, reproducing the ancient patterns from the Middle Ages.
00:14:41
Speaker
producing limited fabrics, I mean limited amounts of fabrics for very high-end customers and every summer back then they would also offer summer courses for interested people. So I was there for three months. Back then they said either you are here for three months or not at all. Those three months were the most, I've never learned so much in three months anywhere in my life. It was a very, very inspiring place and
00:15:10
Speaker
so much knowledge and I was there with four or five other students. I was struck by the fact that weaving education in Norway had so limited and I mean I knew a fraction of what these other girls knew
00:15:29
Speaker
who had their education from France and Switzerland, Austria. This place sounds beautiful, almost quite magical in
Traditional Jacquard Weaving in Florence
00:15:37
Speaker
Little Town in Florence. Tell us a bit more about the place itself, where it was and this foundation that you went to. Okay, so the starting point was that I
00:15:46
Speaker
I thought the dream, of course, was that the jacquard loom was the tool where you could weave flowers and birds and think about the fabulous silks from Lyon from 1700, 1800. That was where I wanted to go. And so I thought at first I need to understand the traditional jacquard technology properly.
00:16:11
Speaker
how to go from a drawing to a point paper to the punched cards, put them in a room and make it work. After three months there, I returned home with three small samples, smaller than a four sheet each, but I had learned tons.
00:16:29
Speaker
It was in the Chianti wine district, surrounded by vineyards and peach trees. It's so lush and green and full of history. This is a foundation that's been there for a very long time. Oh, yes. Well, it's called the Arte de la Ceta Lissio. And the owner back then, this was in 1991, I think,
00:16:52
Speaker
The owner was, she had spent almost all her life in a monastery. Then when her father and sister passed away, she inherited this foundation and left the monastery and was living. She was a very kind of exotic person who would walk through the area now and then. Most of the time she would spend these resorts in the Alps or something, but she appreciated the cultural
00:17:20
Speaker
aspect of this and had a board appointed. They had this young, really skilled instructor who operated the looms. So I think she, despite having lived her most of her grown up life in a monastery, she had a clear vision.
00:17:39
Speaker
The place was going from, I mean, just some forgotten little weaving mill into becoming the most important place in Europe at the time. What is her name? Fidelma, Lizzio. Fidelma.
00:17:54
Speaker
She passed away maybe 95 or something. Just for the sake of the listeners, we're talking about the hand jacquard loom here.
Revolution of the Jacquard Loom
00:18:03
Speaker
I'd love for you to just quickly explain why the jacquard loom is such a powerful loom compared to Adobe and the others. Not all our listeners are weavers, so just set the scene before we get into what you were able to achieve. Okay, the jacquard loom is basically the first device in human history
00:18:22
Speaker
which was able to store information and retrieve it again and it was a mechanism where information was stored on punched cards and then there were needles either hitting a hole or not a hole and that would decide which warp thread should be lifted or not and this head is it was patented in 1801 by a French silk weaver named Jacquard
00:18:50
Speaker
And they say that the reason why his invention was lifted up was because of Napoleon, because he wanted to show that he represented the new world and
00:19:03
Speaker
He would bring France forward with technology and stuff. He got a lot of attention, but still it took him 16 years from the patent until he had a loom that was actually working. I mean, he was standing on the shoulders of many before him who had tried to resolve it because it was a natural evolution from the draw looms, where he just had children standing right next to the loom pulling the pattern
00:19:32
Speaker
with strings. And instead of the strings, they would have the needles, which would read the punched cards. So it was a long evolution. But the frustrating thing was that the Jacquard head is three, four meters up. And then there are strings going from each of these knives down to the heddles. So you could weave multiple repeats of something and you could mirror it. But the size of your pattern was the number of hooks or platens in that head.
00:20:02
Speaker
Of course, the evolution was that the number grew all the time. Like you could have a 400 course pitch or a 600 and then 1344.
00:20:12
Speaker
but it was a very interesting evolution of mechanical engineering as well because the idea was dependent on having small precisely made parts which would trigger the pattern. What did the Jacquard loom enable you to weave that other looms weren't able to do till then? What was that shift? That was a big shift, isn't it? Well, I had that dream that I wanted to be able to weave
00:20:40
Speaker
peonies or clouds or dragons, you know, like we had seen on the ancient Chinese silks. When I started to learn weaving in Norway and we started exploring four shafts and different materials, I felt that there's a missing link here. I mean, how do I get from there to those patterns?
00:21:02
Speaker
And so I thought the Jacquard loom must be the answer to that. So yeah, that was why I went there. It's interesting, isn't it? Because the Jacquard loom then became the inspiration for Charles Babbage to develop the first analytical machine and the computer.
00:21:17
Speaker
because he was quite inspired by the Jacquard looms here in Manchester, the mills here. And that was the punch card. It was either punched or not punched, and it's just your zero and one that you think about when you're programming. So I love that connection. It almost comes to full circle with this loom that you've made, which is a digital Jacquard hand loom.
00:21:35
Speaker
So you went to this beautiful village, you learned about jacquard looms, you know, you learned a lot. You came back to Norway and what did you do? You were like, I want to make a loom or? Well, actually, before I went to Italy, I had acquired a small jacquard loom from a sample weaving studio in a factory in Norway. But that was when I kind of hit the wall because I realized I couldn't program it or I couldn't punch the cards without understanding.
00:22:06
Speaker
But then while I was at Lisio, I realized that there's no way that old Jacquard loom can help any weaver to make a business because the time factor was just overwhelming. You know, from starting to punch the cards until you had the loom going was weeks. If the customer or client or yourself didn't like the design, you had to start all over. So that was kind of the realization I had it
00:22:35
Speaker
teamed up with when we had made that weaving program in 86, I saw that for the computer, there was no limitation. I mean, my loom had 16 shafts, but I could design for 160 if I wanted to. I mean, for the computer, it's just another number, but I thought it's no fun.
00:22:55
Speaker
designing lots of stuff that I can't weave. And when I had the loom where I could potentially weave it, it took too long time. So that's where I was at. Did you have some ideas of how you're going to build this? Did you have kind of figure out what are the kinds of skills and people that I need to think about redesigning the loom? Not really. It was
00:23:19
Speaker
Because I was working at the College of Art and Design, there was this letter in my mailbox there one day saying that the Ministry of Education had invited all university employees to suggest new research projects.
Funding and Prototype Development
00:23:36
Speaker
And somebody had written that they would give special priority to projects involving females and traditional crafts.
00:23:43
Speaker
And that's when I knew this is my opportunity. And then, of course, the deadline for this was just the next morning or something, because at art schools, it's a little bit arbitrary when information is passed on. So I realized when I went home in the afternoon that I just have to make this application tonight. And I walked past the ministry. It was on my way to work actually, but I went there next morning and dropped the application directly there.
00:24:13
Speaker
I forgot about it, so three months later, I was summoned to the headmaster's office and he was like, what is this? Well, anyway, I'd been granted all the money I'd asked for, which was very unusual.
00:24:32
Speaker
Oh, that's fantastic. And again, which year was this in the early 90s? Yeah, this was in 1990. And then what happened? I mean, no, I had written the application without having time really to check around or find it, but I thought there's got to be a prototype involved here. And I thought one has to make some software because I knew that industry had Jaccar programs, but they would cost
00:24:58
Speaker
an arm and a leg, and you know, I knew no artists or designers who had access to it. But the software and the hardware, those two things were kind of the, what I applied for funds for. I got the money maybe in the late spring. I knew that if I hadn't spent the money by the end of that year, I would have to, they would disappear. They would go back to the government. So I didn't find anybody to help me build a prototype until August.
00:25:27
Speaker
And by then I had been helped by a colleague at school. He was at the industrial design department and gave me a list of engineering companies. He usually took his students too. So I started calling from the top of the list and I got kind of one third down and I got the company. And when I explained what I wanted, he said, I only know of one single company that might be able to help you. That was Trondred Engineering.
00:25:57
Speaker
and they are manufacturing the loom today. When I called to that company, I was not going to accept no as an answer. I was like so determined. It was a meandering story, but they built a prototype for me. I almost had a religious experience then because I
00:26:18
Speaker
I saw that this can be done. It's possible. And that was the moment. Tell us a bit more about the loom itself. What did you envision and what was that first prototype that you built? Yeah. So the idea was I wanted something that would be made for weavers. I mean, for hand weavers, because I'd seen in factories how difficult it was for the designer to get access to the loom. You've got small slots.
00:26:46
Speaker
and you had to wait for days. So I wanted it to be a technology level, which could be handled by a hand weaver every step of the road. And that meant that we had to compromise on a lot of things, for example, speed. And of course, since no weaver I knew of had concrete floor and three-phase power and climate control, now it had to fit in somebody's bedroom or office.
00:27:15
Speaker
So because of that, we had to make, well, we needed to be totally harmless. We used vacuum instead of compressed air. We used very low voltage so that there could be, I mean, it could fit in, you could plug it in in the place you live. It should be intuitive. So you shouldn't need complex training at all. If you knew how to make it work, you should be able to operate the loop.
00:27:42
Speaker
And we were also thinking that all weavers already have a loom. They don't need yet another one. So we made this as modules, which could be hung in a wooden loom. And because I thought looms are like, they're very personal. People prefer that brand or that brand because it feels right. But then we faced, gradually we faced a problem. And that was that every country in the world had their own
00:28:12
Speaker
brands of lumes and they never, I mean, we spent so much time trying to make the customer tell us how thick are the sides of your lume and what's the distance from the top of the lume to the headlight.
00:28:28
Speaker
And in the end, we found out that we just cut through all of that and provide the loom as well, because then we didn't have to waste time on adapting it to something. And it was one of the first customers, Carol Westfall, she's passed away now, but she was the one who said, make a new kind of loom. Because if you are a designer and you try to sell in that you are very creative, it doesn't really look very convincing when you're
00:28:55
Speaker
working on a tool that has looked the same since early Middle Ages. Now try to make it look contemporary. So that was inspiration. So we made the first loom in aluminum profiles. And then now we have the TC2, which is thin sheet metal. It looks quite different from the TC1, but it's the same principle.
00:29:16
Speaker
So you've made the TC1 in the 90s. So you got that first grant, you made the prototype. How long did it take for that prototype then to be built into a loom that people could buy? Well, it took almost five years because I had funding from the government for two consecutive years. And that was because in 1990, we didn't, because I got in touch with this company so late in the autumn that it was no time to build a prototype.
00:29:46
Speaker
So I handed in the remaining money and asked for more money the next year. And so by the end of 91, we had a nice working prototype. And then that was when I saw that there's no way back. I need this. But then the project from the government was done and I was trying to find other possible sources to finance the development. And Norway by then was a nice
00:30:16
Speaker
place to be in because we had recently found the oil in the North Sea. So they had quite a lot of money and there were grants for females who wanted to establish industry and there were grants for inventors and all the time I got a little bit. I never got as much as I asked for, but enough to keep my spirits up and me going. But in 1994, Toronto Engineering approached me again
00:30:45
Speaker
and asked what happened to that room and I told them the long story about oh I got a grant from there and I got a little bit from there and then it stopped for a few months and then and I think that persistence they were a little bit impressed and decided that we should have a new meeting and we decided to move forward where my contribution was my leading knowledge
00:31:05
Speaker
And they have the engineering skills. So it was, yeah. You just briefly said that, you know, it kept your spirit alive. So there was some challenging times during the early days of trying to make this. I'm sure there were many challenging times. Could you share a bit about some of the challenges or the resistance that you faced in the process of building this? Oh, yes. It was in the engineering field, for example. I had no clue what it would take, but then we had
00:31:32
Speaker
I agreed that we had to rule out the solar noise which were used by the Jacquard industry because they were too expensive and they would draw too much electricity. So we tried with electromagnets and magnets and we tried the same principle as on a printer where you have the head going across from left to right kind of spraying ink on the paper.
00:31:54
Speaker
So we had the same kind of clicking in the pattern going across, and it actually worked. So then we were, I think, almost the first company in Norway who had laser cut parts coming in from Switzerland to make it exact and precise. But still after months of trial, we had to discard the idea because we realized that it wasn't scalable. You couldn't increase the weaving width or warp density, and that was very important.
00:32:24
Speaker
when you were, so we just had to shelf that idea. And then that's one example.
00:32:32
Speaker
You mentioned that this is a modular system. Tell us about how flexible it is in putting this loom together, depending on your needs. Yes, we wanted the modules to be right above the wall, as opposed to the Jacquard where it was three, four, five meters up. So that meant that you have to place these modules. The size is maybe like a book, almost a thick book.
00:32:55
Speaker
So you can place more modules behind each other and each module has 15 Ns per inch. So two is 30, then 45. And the same with the width that one module has 14.5 inches width. So two modules is 28. But once you have put them in the room, they operate totally individually. So you have the maximum number of work threads that can be controlled individually is 10,560.
00:33:23
Speaker
which is not done by name, but it's possible. So when you were building this, I guess you initially started with thinking about weaving at home for someone who's interested in sort of creating their own expressions or smaller
Weaving Technology Evolution
00:33:36
Speaker
pieces. But over time, you've thought about this for other users as well, sort of research labs, universities, companies. Who are some of the users that use this beautiful machine now? In the beginning, it was a paradox. I discovered that
00:33:52
Speaker
I thought every weaver would be craving one more shaft or two more shafts and when I showed them this loom which basically controlled every head build instead of the shafts so many told me that I don't need that you know I'm happy weaving my squares or stripes or they had kind of been trained to accept the limitations of the shaft loom
00:34:14
Speaker
And so that was the first surprise that we had made a product, but there wasn't really a market for them. And the other thing was that by then very few hand weavers owned the computer. And part of it was that there was no weaving program available. And so it was, when we sold the loom, I sometimes spent more time teaching them how to start their computer and insert a floppy disk and get this process going.
00:34:42
Speaker
So finally, by the time they got to weaving, they were on their own. Of course, I couldn't have known, but the evolution was on my side because computers became more and more available. There were more and more programs around. And by now, I think most weavers own not one, but several digital devices and everybody understand the concept of wifi or sending files. So.
00:35:08
Speaker
That made the threshold lower. And I think it also made some of the first customers we had were outstanding artists who had the confidence to push the borders. So like, of course, they would use inherited money or savings. So I knew it wasn't an easy decision.
00:35:32
Speaker
But I think that the more people who have made that position and made success stories, the easier it became to sell the loom. You said there's a software that goes with the loom. This might be really silly questions, but you still have the punch cards or no more? No. The punch cards were replaced by electronics, like, you know, zero or one electronically. The module is one piece of metal and it has a lid
00:35:59
Speaker
And under that lid, we have the small electronics and the components. So you send the pattern actually wirelessly to the module, and then it's giving message to each header. You should be up or down or two up and one down. And so once all of them are set, we use vacuum to lift the threads. It's a very clean and simple solution. Amazing.
00:36:24
Speaker
I have a quote here from someone who uses the loom and this is what she says, my love for weaving actually started when I was introduced to Jaccard weaving in the TC1. How does that make you feel? Oh, it makes me feel very proud. But it's really what I meant to say that I didn't understand the success of this loom until I started to see the success stories of our customers because
00:36:53
Speaker
People are creative and they approach their ideas in ways I could not have foreseen over and over again. I'm just stunned and impressed and very proud. Could you give us a couple of examples of work people have done, just so people can imagine what is possible with this loom? Yeah, I think very early on, there were two Danish textile artists. Their name is Greta Sörensen and Lise Freund.
00:37:23
Speaker
and they are now in their mid-70s. They bought a TC1 loom together in 2000, and their husbands were also trained to kind of move these modules from Lisa's loom to Greta's loom and then back again, you know, so it's a beautiful setup. But Greta got a Red Dot Design Award for an upholstery fabric, and Lisa got commissions. They shared their successes with me all the time, so
00:37:52
Speaker
I suddenly had these proofs I could show when I was traveling to conferences and showing what people made. So they were very important for me. Another lighthouse of a customer was Lia Cook in California. She had, well, she's maybe in her mid eighties by now. She was one of the first textile artists who exhibited at the Biennale in Lausanne with something that was not tapestry woven, but woven in a loom.
00:38:22
Speaker
So she bought the loom in I think 2001 and has produced her artwork on this loom ever since. And now you find this loom around the world, isn't it? You said one of your biggest market is the UK, but it is all around the world. It started with the art world, which I knew from working at the College of Art and Design. So educational institutions was the biggest market. And then very often the teacher or professor there
00:38:52
Speaker
would use the loom at school or maybe get one at home. But then I think the circles just got bigger and bigger because when rapid prototyping became a concept and on demand production as well, it was those buzzwords that made people see how can we make prototypes quickly.
00:39:13
Speaker
And then factories usually lost that time battle because they would have to finish weaving those 700 yards first. And then maybe you could have a sample woven next Thursday. But if you had the TC1 limb, you could weave that sample before lunch and have it approved.
00:39:30
Speaker
So what you would send to production would be the sample approved. But I think factories still are quite conservative. And I think there are very few, some, but not many, who have bought the TC1 or 2 for their design labs. A lot of them rely on going to trade shows and buy samples from submitters there, like Heinz Textile or Meso and Auger.
00:39:58
Speaker
different trade shows where people go on and just sell samples. But then we saw that with 3d printers, people started to think that you can, you can make a sample in no time. I mean, and then started to look, and I think knitting also was part of it that you could knit something quite quickly. So we got an interest from new kinds of places like, um, fab labs, maker spaces, cross disciplinary.
00:40:26
Speaker
videos and that's just in the beginning I think.
00:40:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's just the start. So exciting to see where this can go and where it is going actually. Do you host workshops on how to use the Loom or are there any online materials that the users can access to learn more about the Loom? We do teach workshops occasionally, but we've been careful because I don't want to compete with our own customers. Some of the customers who have saved up money for a long time and then finally bought the Loom,
00:40:57
Speaker
And part of their business plan is to teach a certain number of workshops per year, so I don't want to compete with them. But we allow people to come here if they have something they need to investigate before deciding to buy a loom. And so we have a studio here, equipment two, sometimes three, TC2 looms, and the different densities and weaving widths so that we can accommodate what people want to try.
00:41:23
Speaker
Are there any limitations on what materials can be used on the loom? Not really. I think the very thick and sticky materials like coir or sea salt can be a problem if you have it in the work because we lift the workplace with vacuum and that is the limitation. If you wanted to weave floor rags with a
00:41:46
Speaker
linen or hemp warp with very high tension, you would discover that it's not operating quickly enough. It isn't strong enough. But I think we have customers who work with surgical steel in the warp, fish line, silver, lots of carbon fiber, conductive fibers, glass fibers, in addition to all of them.
00:42:10
Speaker
natural or man-made fibrous. What is the next phase of this loom that you're thinking about in development?
Enhancing the Loom's Ecosystem
00:42:18
Speaker
I think it's maybe not so much the loom, but everything around it, because we see that if we have a market around the world, we need much more tutorial material that's maybe only visual, not so that we don't have to
00:42:36
Speaker
maintain an English version and have it translated into a Japanese version, et cetera. So I think online training and actually also training for people who have no weaving background is a very exciting challenge, which I think we can work on for some time. But I also think the surrounding equipment, like how to make the warps, there's lots of potential for improvement there.
00:43:03
Speaker
to make it speedier. Absolutely. I mean, here you make the loom so much more accessible for people who've never woven before. It's not a skill that you learn, unless you really decide to choose that as part of your training at university or an apprenticeship. It's very specific. I feel like anyone can kind of go through a few workshops or some tutorials and really quickly get the hang of how to use this loom.
00:43:29
Speaker
You're right. And I think it's a very important point because we call the lume a tool for generating ideas. It's like a sketchbook. And at that point, it's more the concept that's important, the design and the colors. Yes, but you can always have a discussion later on with technicians how to tweak some power lumen and factory to produce exactly this expression. But that doesn't have to come first.
00:43:59
Speaker
Do you get much time to weave today while you're building on this business? Oh, not enough, not enough, but actually more, maybe more now than when I was teaching at the College of Art and Design. But I think mostly when I'm weaving something, it is because some customer asks, is it possible to do this or that? Or can, can I, how can I do this? That's interesting. And sometimes people come with samples and want to have them analyzed and that's also
00:44:28
Speaker
a skill to teach, like how to break down a design and the parts you want or need. So I'm weaving samples. I think I'm the queen of sample weaving. Yeah. You'd love to solve a puzzle. That's what it is, isn't it? Right. Absolutely.
00:44:46
Speaker
Fantastic. Tell us a bit about yourself, Rebecca. I mean, I feel like I've got to know you so much through even just understanding your process of building this loom, but tell me about your life. You're from Norway and tell us where you grew up and what you enjoyed doing when you were a young girl. Well, not very exciting, I think, but my father was working in paper industry and that has been
00:45:12
Speaker
receding industry in Norway for the past 100 years, I think. So because it's cheaper to produce paper in Brazil or somewhere where trees grow faster. Anyway, so we moved around quite a lot when two factories were merged or one was bought by the other. But I was always in the Oslo area, like southeastern part of Norway.
00:45:37
Speaker
I had an older brother and a younger sister and we were taken out like in the winter we would go cross-country skiing and in the summer we had a summer house on the seaside so we had a little sailing boat which I didn't like it much because my older brother would always capsize with me on board and anyway but it was active, active summers
00:46:01
Speaker
Maybe also because of the grandfather with the forestry. I like being outdoor in the nature. A little birdie told me that you make the best jams in the world as well. What is your pick for this summer? What are you jamming? I like making raspberry jam and blackberry jam.
00:46:27
Speaker
also blueberries in the forest or cloudberries, quite limited production. But I think, again, I'm just using that principle of no artificial stuff and as little sugar as possible. And it's tasty because it's ripened in the sunshine, you know, the Norwegian white nights, it has a sunshine
00:46:46
Speaker
the hours a day or something. Yeah. I love that about the Scandinavian countries. Winters are difficult, but it's so worth it when the summers come around. Yes, yes, yes. That's right. This is a question that I ask all my guests. Because you're a weaver, you make textiles. There's a deeper connection that you have with fabric. Is there anything, any clothing or any textiles that holds very personal meaning or memories for you?
Cultural Significance of the Boonad
00:47:12
Speaker
It doesn't have to be something that you wove or that's related to your work, but some fabric that's been in your life. I think to mention the phenomenon of Boonad, which is a regional costume. I think in Norway, 75% of all females, at least, own Boonad. And it's something you get as a child, and you just get bigger sizes. But it's a garment that historically would tell where you came from.
00:47:41
Speaker
Just like, so the kind of pattern and the cut would tell anybody which part of Norway you come from. And so mine is with a hand-woven, woolen skirt, really sticky and heavy. It was kind of a family issue. I mean, small embroideries made by one relative and another one brought something else. So that's how it was historically, that it was pieced together.
00:48:07
Speaker
I'm not wearing it a lot, but at the constitutional day, you can wear it and maybe at some baptizing or weddings or something. But anyway, I have it and I love it. Beautiful. What color is it? The skirt is black. And then the top, it's like kind of the archaic dress cut where it's just almost like a little top over your shoulders. And then I don't know how many meters, five meters, I think, in the skirt. So it's really big.
00:48:33
Speaker
And then you use a leather belt to keep it around your waist, but then the top is red and white, yeah, a little bit of green. And it's all handmade. All handmade, yes. Beautiful. Who would make this for you? The tradition, it would be the husband's family, because historically that would be, so it was woven by the grandmother of my husband, and it was kind of his relatives who brought in everything, so.
00:48:59
Speaker
So you get this when you get married? Yeah, but I had another one which was from where I came from, but like several people have multiples, like if your father came from one area and mother from another. I'll look that up, I have to find out more about this. You told us when you got started getting interested in weaving, do you have that little loom still that your granddad gave you?
00:49:24
Speaker
right around right next to me. I can show it to you if you want to. Oh my word, that is beautiful. I'm from when I was four. Oh my word, that is fantastic. But you know, it's all friends with kids, they have played on it and
00:49:51
Speaker
But sometimes I'm putting a work on just to try out some colors. A little sample. Oh, that is so cute. It's the cutest little room I've seen. I'm just imagining you sitting on the bed and weaving how precious that is. That's right. Now, I have to ask you this. You are a trained pilot. I love that. I don't know where you got the time to do that, but tell us
Vibekke's Passion for Flying
00:50:17
Speaker
about this. What made you want to start flying? And when did you do this?
00:50:21
Speaker
In a way, it was also a childhood dream because my father went to Canada during World War II and was trained to be a fighter pilot. But when he was ready to start flying and then the war was over, so he never did any active flying. But to see those photographs of him and his buddies in the pilot uniforms, that was kind of
00:50:44
Speaker
one thing. And then there was another distant relative who had been a pioneer in polar flights and flying right to the North Pole and stuff. It was a dream. But then when I moved to
00:50:58
Speaker
was the little place where we make the TC2 looms. There's a little airport here and I found out there's a little flying club. And that flying club had the right to educate their own pilots. I mean, so I started to run into totally ordinary people who had the pilot's license. And I thought, if they can, I will try. And it was done through one winter. It was lots of
00:51:25
Speaker
I had to take an exam in navigation, methodology, engines, nine subjects or something, and then pilot flying. And this is 20 years ago, but it was the start of a total adventure because the engineering company got a license to sell a new kind of aircraft engine, a diesel engine. So I bought a little Cessna and we retrofitted it with that new diesel engine. And then I was flying around
00:51:54
Speaker
not only Norway, but Sweden and Finland. I think it's not about the airing. I mean, it's like Volvo, Amazon in the air, you know, like safe, best safety record of all. But it was such a fantastic way of zooming out and
00:52:13
Speaker
seeing the world from above. Beautiful. And how often do you fly? Do you still fly now? Actually, the pilot license is valid throughout the life, but you have to revalidate it every two years. So right now it's not operational, but everything goes in waves. And I think there has been a period now when I thought it's better to just leave it for a while and then get back later. But
00:52:38
Speaker
I've had a fighter airplane and now my husband, we fly helicopter a lot. Vibek, you've taken us on this beautiful journey again. I feel like I've been on a flight with you, an aerial view of 50 years of your journey and some reflections now, maybe of that time. If you had to start this all over again, 30, 40 years ago, what would you do differently? I think I would have dared to be more persistent, but then again,
00:53:08
Speaker
you know, every step of this travel, it has been a response to the surroundings in a way, because I told you we have the loom and I was surprised that people were not jumping on it, but they were not ready for it. And so we made the loom and then we had to make the market. And now it's a similar situation.
Mindset for Innovation
00:53:30
Speaker
So I think even if I had
00:53:32
Speaker
I don't know, I've been yelling that I've found the new way. I don't know if it would have brought me here faster, but I think maybe have had a little bit more self-confidence in the first few years.
00:53:44
Speaker
Actually, I'm curious, what is an important mindset one has to have to build something and reimagine something completely new, innovate something and see an opportunity where a lot of people say, oh, these are the limitations. This is how it works. And it's always worked like that. So we'll just carry on. But you saw an opportunity there to go beyond that. What is that mindset? I think it started because I realized that I was too impatient.
00:54:13
Speaker
to do weaving in the traditional way. And I was fascinated by all the new technology that was pouring in. But I think curiosity maybe is the biggest driving force. Always this, what if? And then of course, it's not possible to have all the skill sets required, but to have respect for those who have that skill set. Because I think the dialogue between people, nothing here has come out of thin area.
00:54:40
Speaker
talking to programmers, talking to the people who are making the parts. So I think you have to be stubborn, but still, I don't know, humble. Are there any artists or teachers or role models that have inspired and encouraged you in this journey? I know you mentioned one of them at the university. Yes, her name was Livi Elsvik, but you know, I think over the years, there are so many, so many that it's, and because I have
00:55:10
Speaker
customers who have become personal friends over the years. But I think I can admire some artwork made by one customer and then I can be totally impressed by an interior fabric made by another one. And I think it's the total sum of people that's fascinating because I think I tried to think through and I think so many of them have been in the forefront of their fields, you know,
00:55:40
Speaker
breaking down barriers and the loom maybe was only one part of it, but it was a part of it and that's important. What are some of the big shifts that you're seeing in the creative weaving space today and your thoughts on where we're heading in the next 10-20 years? I think what has inspired me a lot these past few years is
00:56:02
Speaker
all the new man-made fibers which have new properties of course that means somebody needs to test how they perform during wear or tear even if textiles where fibers were made for space industry or warfare
00:56:21
Speaker
it always ends up having importance in the art field as well. So I think it's very inspiring to see how protective textiles, for example, can be something that's not only for soldiers, but for elderly care. So I think textiles actually can get more meaning, not only having a
00:56:41
Speaker
pretty design, but something that has embedded sensors that can call an ambulance or measure your blood sugar or keep track of things which are important.
Creative Wool Exploration
00:56:53
Speaker
So I think that's inspiring. And what are you enjoying working on today? What's that puzzle that you're trying to figure out that's giving you energy and it piques your curiosity? It's very minimalistic. I'm trying to look at working with
00:57:08
Speaker
wool simply and just to work with different weave structures and see how they change behavior with the light washing for example so to use the properties of the wool in combination with the weave structures and and it's of course common knowledge but i think it's about how to make garments for example that are woven to shape it's also about
00:57:32
Speaker
zero ways. So I think there's a lot of interesting and innovative ways of using weave structures to accommodate that in a more interesting way. One of my future guests is going to be talking about 3D weaving and kind of almost getting the full garment structure off the loom. That'll be exciting, yeah.
00:57:51
Speaker
The last question I have is actually not a question for me. It's a question from my previous guest, Linda Warbin. Maybe you know her from Sweden, who she's done some incredible work on textiles. And this is a question she left. She didn't know who the next guest was, but she just had to pick a question. So this is a question from her. And it was, I would be curious to know what you think is the most unique thing that you could contribute with from where you sit today.
Global Sharing of Weaving Innovations
00:58:18
Speaker
Well, that is a wise question.
00:58:20
Speaker
I think the biggest challenge now is to share this globally because weaving now suddenly the TCTulium can fit in R&D lab for a company making protective garments for soldiers, but it could also be used to redesign ancient patterns from the jungle and somewhere in the Philippines to kind of preserve a cultural heritage. But I think to share
00:58:47
Speaker
with people, the possibilities. I mean, a bit like educational, but I think we can go beyond the circles of traditional weavers to communicate this. And I'd like you to leave a question for the next speaker, whoever that might be. Do you have a question? Yeah, it could be something about when did you realize that this had the potential
00:59:11
Speaker
something like that because for me that was coming with hindsight. That's a great question. Brilliant. I know I asked you lots of questions. Is there any question that you wish I had asked you? It's not a question but really to thank you for this opportunity because I think what you're doing is important.
00:59:32
Speaker
is highlighting things that aren't in textbooks. Oh, thank you, Rebecca. That means a lot and it gives me energy to keep going and doing this. Whether you realize it or not, each of these conversations, it really fills my soul and inspires me.
00:59:47
Speaker
And I know it's going to do the same for the listeners as well. Speaking with you has been just such a joy, really such a joy. So inspiring. Your stories, how you look at textiles, how you look at weave as a puzzle itself is fascinating.
01:00:04
Speaker
And just your pure determination, I think, just to keep going, trying to do something so innovative, so new, to build the first digital jacquard hand loom, to even imagine that it takes someone very special to be able to do that. And you really are that person who could have brought it in the best possible way.
01:00:26
Speaker
It's given us all a tool. You've just given us a tool that we can create so much with. I think that's the most amazing thing anyone can do is to build a tool for the rest of humanity to explore, isn't it? But also remember, it's teamwork, teamwork, teamwork. Yes, absolutely.
01:00:41
Speaker
Absolutely. Absolutely. You and the team. Thank you for that. And thank you for just the insight into your journey, but your life as well. I think that's so important. People can see the loop and be excited, but I think it's so important to know that the person and the team behind it and why they built them, what they dreamt.
01:00:58
Speaker
Thank you again for the fabulous 50 years that you've covered for us. What an incredible journey. I hope we can continue to stay in touch and hear further developments of your work in the future as you build the sort of more, the ecosystem and the peripherals around it as well to match up what you've done with the loom itself. Thank you. Thank you so much.
01:01:21
Speaker
The power of humans to reimagine and invent never fails to amaze me.
Reflection on Vibekke's Contributions
01:01:27
Speaker
Viveke's story is that of a visionary. Her persistence, determination and curiosity is truly admirable. One of my learnings from today is that impatience can be a good thing. She has made a tool that makes weaving, even jacquard weaving accessible to all and I couldn't think of a greater contribution for a weaver to make in her lifetime to the community.
01:01:50
Speaker
As I mentioned in the episode, 200 years ago, the punch card jacquard looms at the weaving mills in Manchester inspired Charles Babbage and Ida Lovelace to create the first versions of the computer called the Analytical Engine, which I believe used the punch card itself. Now, 200 years later, Vibeké has taken her inspiration from computers and electronics to rethink the punch card system and created a new jacquard loom. How remarkable is that?
01:02:20
Speaker
I'm going to coin this the circle of invention when concepts from A feeds into inventing B and then concepts of B feeds back into reinventing A. How about that? I just made that up. But if you have any thoughts on this idea, let me know. I'm sure this isn't a new concept.
01:02:39
Speaker
Do check out the show notes below for links to the Digital Weaving Norway website for details about the modular TC2 looms that are available to buy and also to see a range of examples of what others have done using the loom to create these beautiful fabrics. Do connect with Vibeke and the team if you have more questions, they're really helpful. If there is a TC2 loom hiding somewhere in London that is accessible to the public, please let me know. I would love to spend some time weaving
01:03:08
Speaker
If you have enjoyed this episode, please take just 30 seconds to share the link with a friend or colleague. I would love to hear from you and do leave a review or email me to let me your thoughts on this episodes or suggestions on guests you would like to have on the show in the future.
01:03:25
Speaker
It can be a lonely journey when you're pushing the boundaries of your field and creating something new. And often you're way ahead of your times like Rebecca was. I believe it is so important to support each other through these times. So if you are interested, feel free to book a free 20-minute session to chat with me about your work, if you have any questions or if you want to brainstorm with me.
01:03:47
Speaker
Please don't hesitate to email me and set up a call. My email details are in the show notes below. And remember, it is a free call. I won't try to sell you anything at the end. I'm here to help you. And if I can't help you, I probably will know someone who can in the industry. Thanks again for joining me as we stitch together a rich tapestry of textile innovations one episode at a time. This is your host, Millie Therapin.