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Stoicism: Amjol Shrestha
21 Plays3 months ago
Dr. Amjol Shrestha is the vice president of Philadelphia Stoa and a philosophy professor at Rowan University. Listen to Amjol discuss the guiding principles of stoicism and how these principles can be helpful in improving the wellbeing of both patients and healthcare professionals.
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
You're listening to The Wound Dresser, a podcast that uncovers the human side of healthcare. I'm your host, Jon Neri.
Guest Introduction: Dr. Anjol Shrestha
00:00:21
Speaker
My guest today is Dr. Anjol Shrestha. Dr. Shrestha is the vice president of Philadelphia Stoa, which is a philosophical society dedicated to the study and practice of stoicism. He joined Philadelphia Stoa in 2019 because he was interested in pursuing a non-academic approach to philosophy to augment his formal studies. He also serves as a philosophy professor at Rowan University, where he teaches on a variety of philosophical topics. Dr. Angel Shrestha, welcome to the show. Ah, great to be here. Thank you. Thank you, John.
Stoicism's Core Principles
00:00:56
Speaker
So can you start by giving our listeners a quick crash course on stoicism and and what its core virtues are?
00:01:05
Speaker
Yeah, I think in a nutshell, I mean, these are always, you know, putting a philosophy and in a nutshell is always kind of tricky. um Because if you talk to two philosophers, they may emphasize different things. But so I'm going to emphasize, I think, the the i think the moral or the ah virtuous aspect of stoicism, and not so much on the the epistemology or the metaphysics of it, although those are crucial to it. ah Don't get me wrong, but so stoicism in a nutshell, it's kind of a philosophy of improving one's life. um And that can be achieved by being a rational and sociable individual person. So um stoicism emphasizes rationality and sociability as those two features of being human.
00:01:56
Speaker
So that's how I would say in a nutshell. um Personally, I think ah stoicism has helped me cultivate my character by teaching me what's in my control. um For example, my thoughts like can are and what are in my control. It teaches me about virtue. um And we can talk a little bit about that, you know virtue in terms of you You know, I think the word that the Greeks use for the word virtue is arate, which means an excellence. So um we apply the word arate or excellence. You can apply it on anything like um maybe you have a coffee pot or something like that. And you say, well, what would it be? The arate of a coffee pot. And then you would judge the coffee pot with respect to how it performs its function.
00:02:53
Speaker
Does it get the right temperatures? Does it grind the right beans in the quantity of water? So what would it be for an Arte of a human being? So the virtue of the Arte, the excellence of the human being. Well, for the Stoics, those two features, namely being a rational person and being pro-social.
Philadelphia Stoa's Role and Activities
00:03:16
Speaker
And so could you talk a a little bit about the work, ah the the organization you will work with does, Philly Stoa?
00:03:22
Speaker
Yeah, Phil Stoa, we formally got started. Formally, you met in 2018. It was started by a guy named William Broadwater. He's currently the president, and I'm kind of currently the vice president of um Philadelphia Stoa. About 2018, we formally got started. We've been meeting earlier, just going over books and stuff, talking about philosophy.
00:03:46
Speaker
um He started the organization because he basically he read, you know, of the stoic philosophy and he had no one to talk to. So we started getting together and just putting it out there and meet up. And so we've been doing that. 2018 is a nonprofit organization. We finally got our nonprofit organization. we um We meet regularly, probably every, ah res like Sundays we meet um through Meetup. We either meet online or face-to-face. What we do is we get the word out about what are the benefits of stoicism.
00:04:23
Speaker
um Our organization, like some of the things that we do on Meetup, like we have book meetings, book readings, like right now I'm reading Massimo's Pidliucci's, Professor Massimo's Pidliucci's of the quest for character. And ah we do it like a chapter or a couple of chapters a month.
00:04:40
Speaker
That's one Sunday, another Sunday we we have meetings with our members um where we talk about everyday challenges, how to apply stoic principles to everyday challenges. And then we also meet face-to-face either on some stoic topics like what does it mean for stoic joy or how we can control our our anger,
00:05:04
Speaker
What does it mean to be a sage? um These topics we meet and we get quotes and we talk about those particular topics. So we've been doing that. Also we organize. We've had conferences. Last year we had a conference at UPenn. It was called StoiconX.
00:05:24
Speaker
um Does, can virtue actually help us with our wellbeing? That was a question. And we had guest speakers come and talk about that. So also we have given talks at universities. At Rowan University, we gave a talk at the Philosophy Club on this introduction to stoicism. We also have talked about particular topics that um um at universities, like for example, um Penn State or, um yeah, Penn State Brandywine, we gave a talk on academic anxiety. How can students or even professors deal with academic anxiety? um So we gave a talk on that with practice, teaching about stoic practices. I've given a talk in Delaware on the Sussex Stoa about anxiety. So, you know, those are the kind of the program that we're kind of
00:06:21
Speaker
reaching out towards. ah Recently in the fall, we're going to be working with the Ethical Society. So Philadelphia Ethical Society and getting more involved with them because they want to do some more, perhaps, in the community. So yeah, you mentioned when you conduct when you had the Stoicon X ah conference, one of the questions was, you know can virtue lead to well-being?
Benefits of Stoicism in Personal Life
00:06:45
Speaker
What do you think? like the For instance, for for just people in general and perhaps patients in our healthcare system, what are like the the health benefits of practicing stoicism? Yeah. Well, stoicism focuses ah well the ethical component. you know
00:07:05
Speaker
so When stoics, when I talk about how stoicism can improve a person's life, um you know it's a little bit different than religion or psychology in the sense that um you know for stoics, the the reason why you might be undergoing a lot of stress or anxiety or some sort of mental anguish could be because you're not being sensitive towards morality or ethics.
00:07:36
Speaker
So when you go see a therapist today, a lot of times it may not just be about, they're not necessarily talking about ethics. It goes into a counselor perhaps. you know But stoicism, they think largely some of the problems people have may be due to ethics, um which is very different approach. And it's not necessarily religious either, or you know what you wanna call spirituality. It could, but it's not necessarily limited to that.
00:08:05
Speaker
at least my understanding of it, at least modern stoicism. I mean, classical stoicism, they might incorporate more of that spiritual component, especially the middle stoics. But modern stoics today, look at that, the spiritual component of stoicism. um As long as it provides a you know positive health, they would question some of that you know religious components to it or spirituality.
00:08:35
Speaker
you know, is there any sort of empirical justification based on that? So they, you know, especially the role of faith. So they they may question some of those things. But um as as far as, you know, living a virtuous life, they would say that's probably what gets you on ah to a more healthy, more positive, a more fulfilling life. Now this word, that word I'm getting to is called eudaimonia.
00:09:05
Speaker
the Greek word for eudaimonia, E-U, the word E-U, Deimos, D-A-I-M-O-N-I-A. E-U, the E-U part of the eudaimonia usually means something like good or something positive. So a good or positive Deimos, that Deimon or Deimos in Greek, and I'm not a Greek expert, but usually means your spirit, your demon, your internal demon or spirit. So how do you cultivate a good spirit?
00:09:35
Speaker
That was the goal, to have a a good spirit. It means a flourishing, well-lived, meaningful life. Now, how do you do that? You do that through practicing the virtues. and Primarily, the virtues for Stoics, they're just four. Easy to say, not necessarily easy to practice all the time. um You know, wisdom, that means, you know, for nieces, that means practical judgments.
00:10:05
Speaker
um you know, justice, how we treat each other and ourselves, being just, you know, courage, um you know, when you're dealing with a very difficult situation, being honest with yourself and stepping up and in terms of you tough situations. And the last one, which brings up temperance or self-control, and that's really disciplining yourself.
00:10:32
Speaker
So those four virtues are going to be the means a lot of times to help you obtain this well-lived meaningful life. So a patient, let's say, maybe they're going through some mental anguish, the stoic would look at their life and say, well, what are your values with respect to what's going on in the situation?
00:10:53
Speaker
and if you perhaps don't, that's why <unk>s it's just not necessarily a hack or a technique. There are techniques, don't get me wrong, it's ptosis. But they will usually look at an overall purpose of your life that needs to be kind of questioned or evaluated. Not just, granted that you have to meet people where they are, eventually they would have to say this there's going to be a,
00:11:20
Speaker
to get the fullest of life, you would have to change your your values and get it more sense of incorporating the virtues in your life, which is a natural state for them, they would say. So mental anguish or anything like that would probably be something unnatural for them, for a person they would think.
00:11:40
Speaker
Now, as far as that's the mental issue that so the physical issues that people have, you know, chronic pain, addictions, or just physical, you know, pain that you undergo.
00:11:55
Speaker
The Stoics don't have any, I don't know if it maybe they do, they don't have any formal exercising for the physical body, but they are very aware of the importance of nutrition and exercise to you know cope with your physical body. This may involve you know working closely with your doctors,
00:12:19
Speaker
a nutritionist if you need to. They would be probably be open to any sort of exercises that are beneficial to your body, um anything like yoga or tai chi or anything like that. I don't think any of those things would be intrinsically adverse to stoic practice as far as one's health.
00:12:39
Speaker
So we've kind of touched on the ah you know patient experience, how it can potentially give health benefits to people, or something like stoicism could give health benefits to people.
Stoicism Combating Burnout in Healthcare
00:12:50
Speaker
um But now we could look at the flip side of the coin and and think about the the ongoing burnout crisis in health care. A lot of folks are, especially in the face of COVID and other ah challenges like you know the the the structure of insurance and you know very short appointment times and all these sorts of things that that people are really feel stretched thin in healthcare. care Do you think stoicism could potentially ah be a a strategy for for folks to to help reduce their their burnout?
00:13:22
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I mean, there are two. Yeah, there's burnouts with respect to the professions, like the medical doctors themselves or ah positions, you know, anyone working kind of desk and the medical field. um Maybe you're a nurse or an administrator or any of those professional or nonprofessional jobs. I think Stos doesn't have something to say about that. When when I think about um this notion of burnout, you know what am I, yeah how do you define that? um well one One kind of features, what are the sort of attributes that it has is people often talk about emotional kind of exhaustion that they're feeling, feeling overwhelmed a lot of times. They're feeling a lot of times cynical about their work environment, sort of demoralizing sometimes.
00:14:14
Speaker
The last one I think is that their their achievements are not necessarily living up to their personal achievements. And this all three features, I would say, entail something called burnout. And so let's look at the last one, this idea that achievement. you know So sometimes what Stoics like to talk about is, with you know, What are the things which are really up to you and things which are really not up to you? And this is a famous kind of dichotomy. They call it a dichotomy of control. It was talked about by a guy named and Epictetus, um who Marcus Aurelius read, um but but he was also there in Seneca earlier on.
00:14:59
Speaker
This idea that things which are up to me, what are those things that are up to me? I'll tell you. Well, the things that are up to me are my thoughts, my intentions. you know i can you know I can imagine my goals. you know Those are up to me. And you know my emotions, that's certainly up to me. So certain cognitive states and then actions that follow from those cognitive states. Yes.
00:15:25
Speaker
You know, those are things that are up to me. Well, the things which are are not up to me, you know, like my reputation, you know, my health, even health is not entirely up to me. My my my wealth is not entirely up to me. I can make goals, but actually those goals actually manifesting. Sometimes they're not necessarily up to me. ah You know, sometimes it could be just by luck or sometimes like that.
00:15:53
Speaker
So when it comes to our you know goals a lot of times or you know outputs or achievements, a lot of times there' you know the sort of exhaustion is because demand is just too much. And we don't necessarily have to know how to engage what sort of output I need to have for my profession. um So you do whatever you can and just let it but certain things look. What you can do, you can do the best that you can. And don't worry about the judgments of the outcomes because those are not really up to you. You may get declined perfectly, that's not up to you. You may really like it, you know your outputs, it's not entirely up to you. All you can do is do your your level best.
00:16:40
Speaker
And if it's not up to you, then you shouldn't have to worry about it. It's not not something that you can worry about, you shouldn't be anxious about. Okay, so that's the last one. The first one, I'll talk a little bit more about emotional exhaustion. And the Stoics are very sensitive about emotions. Now, there's two senses of the word stoic a lot of times. There's the capital S stoicism, which I've been primarily focusing on, and that's the philosophical ideas of stoicism. And there's this other word,
00:17:09
Speaker
small as stoic, which, you know you know, the caricature of a kind of a stoic is like a Mr. Spock or something like this, someone who lacks emotion, um you know, super rational.
00:17:26
Speaker
indifferent about communities or something. that That's not stoicism. Stoics, we do, are very sensitive about emotions. What we are trying to understand is the negative emotions and how to avoid certain negative emotions. A lot of times they're called the passions.
00:17:45
Speaker
like fear, greed or anger or hatred or despair, depression, all those negative emotions. they They practice to understand how to get rid of those and they focus a lot of times on positive emotions like joy is perfectly okay or you know sometimes you have to be cautious, perfectly okay.
00:18:10
Speaker
you know So the healthier emotions, I think they would find. Now, the exhaustion that burnout oftentimes gets is this being spread out with your emotions and not knowing where to cultivate what sort of emotions. So for stoicism, ah emotions are a cognitive state. The reason why you are having negative emotions is because pro they argue that you will have some sort of, it's based on some sort of false belief.
00:18:40
Speaker
So if you clean up your false beliefs, then you will not necessarily have those in negative emotions, like anger. So, you know, um like, for example, let's say your employer, well, let's say a patient, you know,
00:18:58
Speaker
um is maybe yelling or screaming at you, or maybe a patient is extremely and unhealthy, or and and you did your level best, and they're mad and angry at you, you know your care for them, you know perhaps your empathy for them could be just misguided in one sense um because you're relying on something that's not entirely up to you.
00:19:26
Speaker
their appreciation towards what your efforts are. So oftentimes um our empathy can be sometimes misguided if we want a shared reply back to from ah from another person. um so So why is that? Because it's made based on a misbelief that this this feeling that I've had, this emotional state is based on the on the belief that, oh, as a profession, I need to care all the time about them. about them Well, sometimes that care, what is that care based on? um This cognitive state of doing your responsibilities, sure, you did your level best. If patients do fine, that's what,
00:20:21
Speaker
You did whatever you could based on the information that you had. um you know That's all that you could temper your emotions on. Anything more than that, and if they if it's not up to you and someone loses their life or they get angry with you, then I think that's where you get emotionally exhausted.
00:20:41
Speaker
Yeah, I think that definitely makes sense. A lot of ah physicians and healthcare professionals feel like that they kind of take a lot of the outcome personally when when they aren't necessarily under their control. You know, if a patient ah dies or experiences significant pain or or illness, you know, they kind of personalize it to I did something wrong, which can probably lead to that emotional exhaustion. But I think yeah, what you're saying is stoicism can kind of
00:21:13
Speaker
you know, tune you into the the fact that that's like a false belief that that's not under your control and that um and that that might be a way to navigate some of the the burnout that some folks feel. um Yeah, I mean, I think that the second one, you know, we talked about um you know, reduced personal accomplishments. We talked about emotional exhaustion. And and the this the the the the one that ah that also is kind of what I've been interested in burnout is sort of this depersonalization in the work environment. You know, um sometimes you psychologically withdraw
00:21:52
Speaker
um you know from personal relations that you might have with other people. um you know so for so for For stoics, it's important to to have healthy relations. That's the prosociality of stoicism. you know Understanding, cultivating positive emotions, using reason, and being prosocial.
00:22:14
Speaker
And if you're not in a in a and in an environment oftentimes that it's, you know, you're not resonating with people, you know, it it could be very depersonalizing and you could, you know, feel like um and being cynical or being negative towards others. Stoicism recognizes this and is, I think it recognizes that what's,
00:22:39
Speaker
But you have to function sometimes. It's important to understand your role in your job and how that helps you define you know what the constraints of what you need to do as a profession.
00:22:51
Speaker
up you know Creating an environment where you can explore ideas with your colleagues and stuff like this. upmanship and all the sorts of ah professional environments, the Stoics were very aware that these are probably not the most healthiest environment. And that also kind of, its competitiveness can probably, unhealthy competitiveness can also kind of contribute to the sort of burnout
00:23:25
Speaker
A lot of these things that i've I mentioned in the medical profession, I think applies, you know, I personally experienced through, you know, even professors in university environments, not that I'm different. You know, a lot of professionals, I think, probably undergo some of these similar traits. But I think medical doctors are unique in this, where it's it's a moving target, it's very high stress, some of them, a lot of dynamics going on, and I really do respect, like I was just talking to my sister-in-law, what she has to do every day, that those sort of challenges about health, patient's life and death, admin work, coworkers, you know all these sorts of things that they undergo. I think ah they definitely, I think are in a high-stressed environment
00:24:23
Speaker
um which also can contribute to their personal lives and not only their professional careers, but this burnout also spills over. Primarily, I'm concerned, I think, with their own personal lives, raising the children their their husbands and their lives and their friendships. It seems like that finding that balance for medical professions is ah is is challenging. Yeah, that's definitely something I've heard throughout my ah
00:24:54
Speaker
education and continue to hear is that that work-life balance is probably one of the hardest things you have to do for for you know working in health care you you kind of feel like you you probably take a lot of those issues home with you um whether it be patient issues or or stresses or whatever and ah to kind of you know let that go and just be like you said a good father good wife or whatever you know role you might have in your personal life can definitely be ah really hard.
Illness and Value Shifts through Stoicism
00:25:25
Speaker
I read something else interesting actually just today um in a book and it was it was a quote to something of the tune of like, you know, you can't change your values through rational thought. You can only change your values through experience.
00:25:47
Speaker
And I thought that was a really interesting quote and I think it ties actually a lot into healthcare care because illness seems like a great experience that not a great experience but like illness is an opportunity illness is an experience where you can change your values and you know, is that something maybe healthcare care teams should should tap into? should they say Should they have patients who have illnesses and saying, hey, let's take a second to reassess your values. Maybe this is a good time to think about what's really important to you. I i think so. Stoics are very ah sensitive towards this in particular. Because it's a philosophical way of life, it does give you this whole sort of shift. It does offer that. um As far as, you know,
00:26:36
Speaker
You know, when you study stoicism, the the first things that, you know, most people do is, well, combination probably, but the primary thing, they're going to get some quotes, read some books, and um so you get some theory.
00:26:55
Speaker
um Like, what are the virtues? What is your diamineum? What are the dichotomy of control? All these sorts of, I think, technical terminology and stuff. and That's important for theory. What is the logos? All this sort of stuff. But that that's helpful. It gives you a framework. It gives you an ideology.
00:27:17
Speaker
But it doesn't mean much until you practice. And until you practice it, it's just a framework. It doesn't really have that much meaning. And then you start seeing how the theory comes alive through the practice. And that theory gives you some sort of constraints, but the practice is applying all these sorts of interesting ideas, histosism, to your real life situation.
00:27:44
Speaker
And what happens is oftentimes that practice reinforces the theory and that theory also reveals a lot of the practice. So you gotta have both. So change does occur, but it's going to be revealed through the combination of these two things, theory and practice, I think. Now, as far as um patience, you know like you were saying, you know,
00:28:15
Speaker
you have to meet people where they're where they're at. You know, one thing and that I noticed about ah stoicism and we have a meeting group where we we talk about everyday challenges. All kinds of situations happen to people from from annoying neighbors to you know ah you know, uncompromising employers to sicknesses, see you meet people where they're at. And one thing and I noticed is that people will tell you a story of where they are. And, ah you know, sometimes stoic practice, one of the things is just listening and hearing what people say. And not necessarily advocating a lot of times, stoicism,
00:29:05
Speaker
but just kind of resonating with the frustrations and the dissatisfactions that one undergoes in life. I mean, Marcus Aurelius has a famous quote saying that, you know, he just knows that every day in his life, he's gonna meet some terrible people, some jerks, we're gonna say some things to him, we're gonna want some things from him, and that's just gonna be a parted life.
00:29:34
Speaker
And so you know that it can be very humbling in that that sense.
00:29:41
Speaker
you know To study stoicism carefully, I think the next step is you have to be careful because you you may not want to do it alone. um that There may be more ways to get things wrong than right when you kind of study stoicism on your own.
00:29:58
Speaker
Traditionally, it's done with a teacher. right you know You might want to have someone who can slowly guide you. um So maybe a community like Philadelphia Stoa, someone who knows a little bit about the practice, either a friend or someone you can trust. I think that's important. Someone to dialogue with.
00:30:27
Speaker
So slowly, I think things get revealed in that manner, depending on where the person is at. But it it it I know one thing, personally experiencing it, um it's not going to be easy. It's going to be challenging. And you'll make a lot of mistakes. But you will see improvements if you stick with it.
00:30:54
Speaker
do you do you think that um in healthcare, like healthcare, care healthcare care systems shouldn't endorse kind of the the practice
Potential Partnerships with Stoic Organizations
00:31:03
Speaker
of stoic virtue. Is that something that would be good for both patients and providers? um Should there be, you know, partnerships between healthcare care and organizations like Philly Stoa to? ah Yeah, I do think so. I do think it's an option. ah You know, you don't have to frame it. You know, um
00:31:26
Speaker
You don't have to frame it it in terms of you know this ancient philosophy and all this sorts of stuff or some of sort of religious ideas. no My understanding, one of the values of stoicism is it's kind of the the secular component to it. And why? Because it could be consistent with any sort of religious background that you might have, whether you're a Buddhist or Muslim or a Christian or anything like that.
00:31:51
Speaker
so regardless of what you want to call it stoicism or not, there are some general psychological principles that I think can be very helpful. And if those could be as an option for people to examine, to look into, I think that's perfectly okay. Like the dichotomy of control or something, what are the things that are up to me? There are things that are not up to me. Simple things like that. Learning to step back a little bit before you make a decision, not being so impulsive,
00:32:22
Speaker
ah this notion of prosuke, learning to pay attention to the impressions and to your thoughts in your mind before you react. Simple things like this, I think it's hard to say that whether any tradition would be against these things.
Stoicism and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
00:32:38
Speaker
So I would frame it in that in terms of, um you know for example, cognitive behavioral therapy,
00:32:49
Speaker
ah Albert, Ellis Albert, I think he, we we know that he appealed to stoic practice. He knew about stoicism, incorporated cognitive behavioral therapy. You know, you don't have to call stoicism, just call it whatever you want. You want to call it rational behavioral therapy, perfectly okay. You want to call it dialectical behavioral therapy, where you talk and you examine your, an issue with someone else, inquiring into it, perfectly okay.
00:33:19
Speaker
All those, I think, are very helpful, low-cost strategies, but doesn't necessarily require medication to help a person examine their their life. Yeah, I think that's it that's maybe something that's refreshing about stoicism. At the end of the day, like you can slap whatever label you want on it, but it's just a collection of virtues that are kind of like,
00:33:47
Speaker
ah battle-tested time proven and that have worked for a lot of people and then yeah, if you if you kind of label it as Stoicism they can kind of you know, you could sort of get this ah Evangelical like like like, you know trying to trying to like bring people into your the way you see things and the way like you're but at the end of the day it's just it's just kind of like stripping down a lot of that and A lot of other traditions to like the virtues that are at the center of all of them Yeah, I mean there's some positive and and some negatives to that like let's do an analogy for example um Let's take like yoga. Okay now um You know yoga, you know
00:34:27
Speaker
In the Vedic tradition, yoga yoga yoga is a religious sort of practice. I mean, it's part of yoga school, you know, written by Patanjali over 2000 years ago that involved not just these asanas or these exercise positions, but a whole religious doctrine that goes along with it, you know, and it's called yoga. Now,
00:34:48
Speaker
You know, ah yes, you don't necessarily need all those metaphysical religious components to it to get access to these postures that are supposedly, this helps you with your physical health. You know, it seems like it's a very reasonable thing to do without all those things.
00:35:07
Speaker
Sure,
Accessibility of Stoicism and Yoga Parallels
00:35:08
Speaker
perfectly okay. You don't necessarily have to call it yoga, I mean, because that's, you know, you may be co-opting a certain name, but if you choose to do this, there is this other element to it, no doubt. If you want to explore it, it's probably there. But at first blush, it's just something I think that it could be very helpful for people who are experiencing physical you know, constraints, um you know, so, okay, so can we do the something similar to just stoicism? I would think there could be some sort of parallel, although you have to be very cautious, um you know, because overall, it's just not a bunch of hacks.
00:35:45
Speaker
mental hacks that stoicism offers. It is generally a philosophy of overall life, but slowly you meet people where they are, you you try some of these techniques, see if it helps them. If they want to inquire further into it, there's this whole philosophy involved in it that you could explore. But at first blush, like I'm saying, if you you know I think it's it's very accessible.
Quick-Fire Personal Insights from Dr. Shrestha
00:36:12
Speaker
All right, it's time for a lightning round, a series of fast-paced questions that tell us more about you. So who is your favorite philosopher? I wrote my dissertation on an Indian philosopher named Jayanta Bhatta. And um he was such a fair-minded philosopher that all the opponent schools um who would argue against him you know didn't like him, he would write so well and so fair-minded that even his opponents would use his writings that explained their own schools. So so you know this that sort of fairness in mind um was always a ah highlight example of what I try to aspire as a philosopher, try to be keep keen, fair-minded, and even my opponents will recognize that when I explain their views, they would accept it.
00:37:12
Speaker
What is your favorite junk food?
00:37:16
Speaker
um
00:37:18
Speaker
Favorite junk food. I kind of like. um Yeah, that's a good question. Junk food. No, um probably milkshake, strawberry milkshake. I've been kind of going towards Wawa's strawberry milkshake, so.
00:37:40
Speaker
What's ah one hobby you'd like to try? I think going back to music, maybe more, I'd like to play drums, something that I've always wanted to, I see my daughter, she does it. And it looks like a lot of fun. Maybe some time later in my life, I'll do that. And what's one change you'd like to see in healthcare? care Yeah, I would like,
00:38:09
Speaker
um I'd like the medical profession, especially doctors, um to to you know be more honest about their profession. I think it's being revealed now more and more about the stress and the strains of profession that undergoes it. I think the cost It needs to probably go down, but I would say just exposure to medical doctors and their lifestyles. I think that's really important. The more people understand what they undergo, I think the better we are at understanding health in our community. Dr. Angel Shrestha, thanks so much for joining the show. Oh, no, thank you. Thank you so much, John. It was it was a pleasure. pleasure to all
00:39:06
Speaker
Thanks for listening to The Wound Dresser. Until next time, I'm your host John Neery. Be well.