Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Medical Education: David Swope
41 Plays3 months ago
Dr. David Swope is a teaching professor of embryology at Cooper Medical School of Rowan University. Listen to David discuss the concept of active learning, recent trends in medical education and best practices for staying up to date on medical advances.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Host Welcome
00:00:09
Speaker
You're listening to The Wound Dresser, a podcast that uncovers the human side of healthcare. I'm your host, John Neary.
00:00:21
Speaker
My guest today is Dr. David Swope.
Dr. Swope's Teaching and Research Journey
00:00:23
Speaker
Dr. s Swope is a teaching professor of biomedical sciences at Cooper Medical School of Rowan University. At Cooper, Dr. Swope facilitates active learning groups for first and second year medical students, while also lecturing on cell biology and embryology. He has previously conducted research in medical education and student centered learning, as well as translational research associated with heart development and function. Dr. David Swope, welcome to the wind dresser.
00:00:49
Speaker
Thank you. Thank you for having me, John. Glad to be here. So I know you've done a lot of research in ah medical education in the past. um What are some ah projects you've worked on in the past?
00:01:00
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So when I started at CMSRU nine or 10 years ago, I was involved with a few projects in medical education. I was looking at the ah effectiveness of team-based learning ah that we utilized at CMSRU, and I also did that in some ah summer programs. So we were looking at different assessment parameters within team-based learning exercises.
00:01:25
Speaker
ah I typically designed a ah project for capstone students who are interested in completing their capstone assignments for scholars workshops so we had a few students who are working on those projects and we actually got an updated to present at a.
00:01:41
Speaker
a conference at International Association of Medical Science Educators Conference a few years ago and that resulted in ah nomination for best poster presentation. So that was a pretty cool and oral presentation. um So I i did... ah Medical education projects similar to that as well as a few others for caps and projects years ago but since that time i've shifted to more administrative responsibilities at the school so my. ah Efforts looking at specifically medical education research is diminished over the years but certainly an area that i'm continuously interested in you know.
00:02:19
Speaker
medical education knowledge generation is really important and learning about the effectiveness of teaching. Figuring out the best ways to deliver content to medical students is is really intriguing. So it's something that I'm always open to going back to and and looking at more in
Active Learning and Educational Strategies
00:02:34
Speaker
the future. I know a big thing at CMSRU is um like active learning. How is that kind of defined in medical education? Like what is active learning? Yeah, I think that's a good question. I mean, in in general, active learning is kind of a generic term, I think, to to basically move away from the more secondary, more passive learning. Like when I think of passive learning, I think of these like big auditoriums where a professor will go up and present their history, their knowledge base, their are background information to a group of a hundred students. Whereas more active learning involves transmission of ideas and knowledge from peer to peer, teacher to peer,
00:03:13
Speaker
peer student to teacher back and forth ah so that's a big part of our curriculum at cms review it's one of the main reasons that i joined cms are you was the integration of that active learning i'm in small groups but also you know i think a number of faculty try to implement it as well into.
00:03:30
Speaker
into lectures to just try to get the the students as involved as possible to be active, to be engaging, keep your attention span. right um you know It's difficult to concentrate for more than about 10 or 15 minutes on a subject matter. I see that in students all the time, so I try to you know actively re-engage them in the material through different activities or questions um just to make sure that everybody's following along and actively invested and testing their knowledge base. I think it's a good way to kind of liven up some some lectures. So it's both parts active learning you can do in traditional you know lectures, but also in small group learning, it's ah it's a core part of our curriculum.
00:04:11
Speaker
um So yeah, I know with the the small group learning, I feel like one of the big keys is like mindset. You have to have like the right attitude in order for it to succeed. like what What kind of like culture do you try and instill in the students to like make the active learning groups ah successful? Yeah. Well, building a positive learning environment and dynamic is key. right like I think that's a huge part of the learning process is the students feel comfortable. And I think that if they're comfortable,
00:04:37
Speaker
um And there you know feel like they're in a safe inclusive warm environment you're just more likely to learn because you're not as nervous you're not as anxious you not feeling pressure that somebody's assessing you. You know you're you're open and welcome to to learning new things so i feel like creating the learning environment is a core.
00:04:58
Speaker
crucial part of of active learning and small group learning. And me as a facilitator, I think that's one of my primary responsibilities is to ensure that like everybody has space to contribute. Everybody feels comfortable. Everybody feels like it's a safe place to learn. And that just opens the door for, for learning.
00:05:17
Speaker
I know you said like lectures are still like a big kind of part as well of the curriculum. you're You're one of the most beloved lectures at Cooper, I know. um So what ah you know if you're giving advice to young faculty or just starting out lecturing, like what what makes a good lecture?
00:05:32
Speaker
Yeah. um Well, I certainly don't think I know everything when it comes to you know designing lectures and and being an effective like educator. you know These are some things that I've just utilized um over time. um I think When i am given an assignment for a lecture you know i i typically take more of a backwards design thinking about the objectives that students need to be familiar with and that's typically based not on chapters in a textbook but rather you know looking at what's required for like usm le content guides and like what's typically tested on step one.
00:06:08
Speaker
ah using a variety of different resources, not just textbooks, but you know a lot of outside resources, um being aware of the diversity of learners, trying to um'm not just use text, but images and effective PowerPoint slides, videos, demonstrations, um you know effective tables, summaries, things of that sort. I try to diversify my my learning materials, my educational materials.
00:06:35
Speaker
um Ensuring that assessments are aligned with learning objectives that learning objectives aren't just a random thing that I put in my first slide but are actually relevant and so that students are genuinely familiar with what they need to know in order to be successful on the exam.
00:06:51
Speaker
um you know i and In general, I just try to make it easier for the student. like I empathize with the student. I wasn't a student that long ago. I know how hard it is. I know the challenges that you're faced with and the volume of information that's getting shot at you every day. like I feel like I want to do everything that I can to help you as a student um get you to where you need to go.
00:07:12
Speaker
um So I think putting in that extra effort on my end and and um creating the best possible education materials for you for that 50-minute session as it as it might be um goes a long way in and what then you need to do secondarily to absorb that information.
00:07:34
Speaker
so um I think a lot of educators will get an assignment and just kind of say, like, here's you know chapter 11 in the textbook. My first slide will be the first image, and my second slide will be the second image in that textbook, and so on and so forth. And so, um you know, my my thoughts were really... crafted through a ah postdoctoral fellowship that I attended that not only allowed me to gain research experience, but also was ah training for me on education and and taught me how to teach essentially. So participation in that ah postdoctoral fellowship, I think really aided my development of educational materials and my approach to teaching my teaching philosophy.
Culture Shift in Medical Education
00:08:20
Speaker
Do you feel like lecturing is becoming like a a lost art as like there's a lot more remote learning? ah you know Sometimes lecturers will come into you know lecture halls and be bummed out that there's only 10 students. It's certainly different. Yeah. And then that happens. you know and i'm ah you know I think most educators, and I can speak for myself, is OK with that. like I know as an M2 student in the spring semester, the amount of students that attend is going to be much different than an M1 fall semester. you know that That drops off.
00:08:49
Speaker
I think you know getting past my initial ah thought process of, it's oh man, it's a bummer that out of 115 students, maybe only 30 are there. But in reality, I again try to put myself in your shoes and if I can listen to myself at one and a half speed and I can pause to go to the bathroom or I can pause it to to look up a term or to rewatch,
00:09:12
Speaker
You know a slide that that or you know a phrase a ah ah piece of that lecture that I needed to that is also really effective and I feel like I totally understand the benefits of of doing that. You know some people learn at different times during the day you know again you can really optimize your study habits by.
00:09:34
Speaker
listening to recordings when it best works for you. So I understand that and I try not i try to get over that initial shock of just having you know, maybe a reduced number of students in class to just understanding and just telling myself that, you know, this is actually beneficial for the students. And and at the end of the day, that's all that it really matters. Do you feel like, but it's, I think you're definitely acknowledging there's been sort of a culture shift in across like at medical schools across the country where it's not as like in person oriented, uh, which is good. White, white Cooper has like the active learning groups, but do you feel like that's a positive, negative, neutral development and in medical education?
00:10:12
Speaker
ah Pros and cons to both, I'm sure. um you know I think the in-person sessions are really important for building that critical thinking and teamwork that we try to emphasize in small group settings. right like I think that a huge part of our ALGs or our active learning groups are that teamwork ah component, that building those communication interpersonal skills.
00:10:37
Speaker
And I think that's one of the big reasons why we keep, ah we you know that that that's a big part of our curriculum is to build some of those components that you don't typically get in like a didactic lecture. um So again, I think that shift is is essentially trying to maintain or encourage those skills from students in a different setting, in those small group setting. Whereas in a big lecture hall, it's a little bit more challenging to develop some of those skills, um unless you do like breakout sessions or things like that. So i you know I think it's a just general shift in a lot of medical education. It's not just specific to CMSRU. I think a lot of schools are utilizing that ah that approach.
00:11:19
Speaker
In general, when you think like big picture about like medical education, right, you there's kind of like, ah sort of like dueling goals in a way, right, you need your students to like pass their step exams, you need them to get through that. But you also want to instill this like sense of like lifelong learning, like of of like, you know, ah in this for the long run, not just to pass the exam. So how do you kind of like balance those two things?
00:11:44
Speaker
it's That's a tough question. I mean, my my viewpoint is they're not mutually exclusive, right? Like you can do both in ah an ineffective lecture, I think. At the end of the day, in order for you guys to be successful as medical students, you're gonna need to pass step one, right? Like we can talk about scientific curiosity and lifelong learning as much as we want, but if you don't pass step one, you cannot become a doctor. So like I have to do my job. I have to transmit this information to you the best that I can so that you are successful on these shelf exams, these board exams, um because otherwise you won't be a doctor.
00:12:18
Speaker
But simultaneously i hope that through an effective lecture that i do make you curious and that i do make you maybe potentially passionate about the material because maybe it's being transmitted in a way that you better understand it and you're more curious about it.
00:12:34
Speaker
And, and to be truthful, we're all nerds and geeks and we love science and medicine. Like that's why we're here. So we're all invested in science, you know, lifelong learning in the first place, like whether or not you come to embryogenesis lecture, you know, in, in molecular basis of medicine, you should be a lifelong learner regardless. Right. You always want to look into, uh,
00:13:00
Speaker
up to date or or the primary literature and and try to figure out the advancements in medicine. Like this is a constantly evolving field. It's not like it's just done with you. We can't just like stop learning. That just doesn't occur in this field. So whether or not you come to my lecture on embryogenesis or, you know, heart development, you should be a lifelong learner just because you love medicine and you love learning. And there's always things to learn.
00:13:31
Speaker
When you're thinking about like the curriculum and like what how you're incorporating things into your lectures or your you know the but whatever is being taught, ah like how frequently are you going back and like checking the literature and like seeing what's new to add in ah Yearly, every year. yeah yeah so um I guess luckily for me, being an embryologist, not a lot changes. ah you know we kind of ah Similar to anatomy, right there's no huge advances in the field. There's no um changes in in drug therapeutics.
00:14:06
Speaker
you know there's There's no new molecule that's discovered um like there there are in some other fields. But yeah, i it's my job of professional development to stay abreast and to stay current in the field to ensure that I'm aware of the content and that I'm transmitting it to you the best that I can. So, you know, there have been occasions in the past where recent literature will change and our interpretation of parafilicular C cells will go from being neural crest cell derived to becoming more endoderm derived. That happened years ago that, that changed, you know, what we knew about the, that origin and it changed in first aid and it changed in the resources that you have. But it's also my job to look through that primary literature and, and to appraise that information and, and try to again, transmit it to you the best as possible.
00:15:01
Speaker
But yet my my job is to always go back like yearly. I am always looking through my ah evaluations very carefully. I'm looking through my presentations very carefully. um I'm comparing ah the literature to ah new videos that are out there, the new resources that are out there again, because it's my job to stay as current as possible on the content that I'm delivering to you. I think that's a huge role for for educators. I think we we can't just create a slide deck and then not change it for 10 years. I don't think that's doing our job.
00:15:36
Speaker
What ah do you find to be like the best resources to kind of like hit to be like up to date on like the newest advances? Yeah, I mean, I think you have to diversify right like anything. um I try to look at a variety of different sources. I try to look at ah sources like ah textbooks, you know, again, like if I'm thinking about embryology that I'm teaching, there's there's at least four different textbooks that I read, ah specific to embryology that I always refer to. There are um new videos and new images that ah consistently um pop up online. We can go into the primary literature and read um things on PubMed.
00:16:16
Speaker
Um, I also utilize resources that students do. Like I have an AMBOSS account. I have a you world account. I look at, you know, osmosis and boards and beyond. These are all like really good resources that are available to students commercially. And I feel like for the most part, do a nice job summarizing the material, but it's also my job as an educator to see, okay, so AMBOSS said this about.
00:16:39
Speaker
you know, primary ciliary dyskinesia. Are they right? Are they off on a little bit of something? Is there a point of clarification that I could make in this practice question? You know, did they do a good job explaining why this answer was wrong? So again, I think that's, that's part of my responsibility as well as to clarify any misconceptions or any inaccuracies that you might find out there and in those resources, not to say that that that happens regularly, but students use those resources for a reason. So I think it's helpful for me to cross reference it and to view those materials to see you know what what you're seeing on the outside.
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah, kind of tangent of that. I think just a huge challenge for students is that there's just so many resources, so much information ah for every lecture. There's a bunch of textbook chapters that I'm not sure how many people check out in their free time. No, I mean, even for mine, I have.
00:17:37
Speaker
ah you know, whether we call it required or suggested reading, I know that probably less than 1% of the class is actually doing so. And that that's also why, you know, I'll make things like the the syllabi that are associated with the lectures, because I'll take 120 pages in a textbook and consolidate it down to eight pages. Because I think the likelihood of you reading an eight page guide in conjunction with my slides is a lot better than reading 120 page textbook. Not to say, like, again,
00:18:04
Speaker
For the diversity of readers learners, you know some people might be enjoy reading textbooks, but again, I understand that you have limited time to learn all this material and to look at all these resources. So I think as educators, if we can make your life easier, you know that's that's what I'd like to do. Yeah, I think the reality of it is when you're like facedown with all these resources and reading and, and so forth, where it gets like really into the weeds, you end up just sort of like defaulting to a Google search, which ends up having its own kind of like problems. So like, for instance, like when you feel like you need to know something, like where where do you where's your kind of like first pass? Like, where do you go to like, well, I don't think like using Google as a resource is something that I would say don't do, you know, I you know, if
00:18:51
Speaker
depending on the question i certainly will use google as a resources across the you know just to check something but then. Further investigation if it warrants. Additional resources and and and to really. Check the accuracy of that materials i'll certainly go elsewhere um but like if you're just looking for a.
00:19:10
Speaker
you know what's the definition of tachycardia like i'm gonna google that and i don't need to necessarily go to pub med to see that you know what the heart rate needs to be ah you can simply google stuff like that.
AI in Medical Education: Opportunities and Concerns
00:19:23
Speaker
Also then one step further of that is like you have tools like chat gbt and i in general like how do you feel like that's gonna play a role in medical education.
00:19:31
Speaker
That is, I feel like the $10 million dollars question right now, certainly a hot topic on everyone's mind. I know that ah for medical educators, that is a a concept that is being heavily discussed right now, not just at CMS or you, but basically every medical school in the nation. ah You know, there's sections that go to annual conferences, and there are now sections of like every conference that's talking about the utility of AI and medical school curriculum. So I think the large oversimplified answer is we don't know yet, right? Like we're still trying to figure out
00:20:03
Speaker
ah When is appropriate to use it and when not for both. Educators ah administrators but also as students you know I feel like. Um, we're still very early in the learning process for AI in medicine and trying to figure out where, when it's appropriate to use it. And when can there be consequences of, you know, putting too much belief or confidence in those, in those systems. So like for instance, um,
00:20:40
Speaker
You know, I've heard some of my colleagues mentioned that during ALG, they will have students who literally just type in the question that a peer asks into chat GPT. And like, again, while they might be getting accurate information, that doesn't really demonstrate so much active learning to me because your, your kind of brain in that system is an artificial intelligence brain as opposed to the individual kind of researching that material. Um, so I,
00:21:08
Speaker
I think that while it has the potential to be a very strong resource for us in the future, you know, like anything, you have to urge caution because you don't know the the validity of the resources that it's spitting out because it is kind of like this artificial brain. You know, I think over time it'll it'll become really, really powerful, but who knows exactly the accuracy of the information that it's spitting out to you. I even, for instance, so like for myself,
00:21:38
Speaker
I had some colleagues recommend, you know, you can use it for all different things. One of the things was writing questions, writing exam questions and trying to build assessments. And I just, you know, tried to do it just to see what would would what would come out. You know, I said, you know, build me a question where the answer is, you know, atrial ventricular septal defect or something like that.
00:21:58
Speaker
I'm surprisingly accurate right but wasn't perfect so I think. At this point and again I'm my knowledge is pretty minimal when it comes to artificial intelligence like there still needs to be that authoritative.
00:22:14
Speaker
Checkpoint afterwards to ensure that what material it's spitting out at you is accurate because it's I you know I don't I don't know if it's a hundred percent Do you see like PubMed or like journals coming out with their own kind of like AI tools? Do you think that's gonna be like on the horizon? I mean it could I don't actually know um Again, I feel like this it's a kind of untapped potential. I don't I don't know really know where it's gonna go um But I I don't think we should ignore it I don't think that we should just say You know, it won't happen in medicine for any reason or it won't happen in education. You know, I think students are going to start using it if if they aren't already. I think, you know, again, I think even educators and administrative staff are, are, are using it as well. So it's just, we're still so early. Like I feel like there's a lot to learn about the pros and cons to it.
00:23:06
Speaker
I guess I sort of think you ah like an analogy of like sort of like the industrial revolution, right? You had a lot of these manual laborers who then like sort of, that were displaced, but kind of like a lot of, ah you know, what they did kind of was taken over by machines. and And if it's the same way, is it gonna be the same way for medical students, right? like Like right now I still feel like as a medical student that I'm like a heavy lifter, like doing a lot of the studying, but like is sort of that gonna become obsolete? Cause you're just gonna have this knowledge base where that's the knowledge base you go to and tap into.
00:23:34
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. I certainly hope not. You could say the same thing about educators, right? Like you could just get artificial ah education, right? Yeah, I guess humans could just become obsolete. and Yeah. So I don't know the answer. One would think that there there needs to be some, you know, oversight and some cross checking. But I do definitely think there are probably Specialties in medicine that this would be really valuable for like anything like i think of like diagnostic like radiology and things like that um you know if you can throw into a machine. Three hundred x-rays and say identify what's abnormal here you know and it spits out. Something you know and in slide eighty seven there's this error right like i feel like there's some utility there whereas.
00:24:25
Speaker
you know, like someone in like maybe family medicine or you know what I mean? So I feel like it it's dependent upon the specialty or the utility ah of artificial intelligence, but I don't know. It's, it's an interesting topic. Like I said, it's a hot topic though. That's on everybody's mind. and And they're certainly thinking about how they can implement it in medicine and in education. Yeah. I used to work in a radiology research and that was definitely something that's going on for sure. Um, there's sort of like debates over how much oversight there's going to be by radiologists and so forth. Um, it's certainly,
00:24:56
Speaker
I think it's moving slower than some people would like to think. So that's that's a consideration. But maybe that's a good thing, right? like I feel like if it's moving slowly, then we're at least being cautious about not going too fast and not relying on it too heavily because of the potential for inaccuracies. And then that opens up a whole other Pandora's box about like who's then liable for those inaccuracies or errors. I can only imagine. that That goes way beyond me. That goes way above my paycheck. But I feel like- Is it the algorithm creator yeah Yeah, I don't even know what the downstream consequences of that would be. But um it's really interesting. I feel like you know it's gonna it's not appropriate to ignore it. It's not appropriate for educators or for students to just say like, this doesn't affect me because it will. I just don't know how um how much it will affect us in the future.
00:25:53
Speaker
i I want to close by asking you about, like i know i I feel like medical school is a very unique learning environment because you have like so many different
Diverse Backgrounds in Medical Education
00:26:01
Speaker
professionals teaching you. right You have people who have PhDs in all sorts of ah the biomedical sciences. You have MDs teaching you. you know like how um like What like advice do you have for like i guess people at, like um you know if I were to start a medical school, creating like a good learning environment where all those moving parts work well together?
00:26:20
Speaker
Yeah, well, i mean I think a lot of medicine, education, all aspects of life are interprofessional collaboration and teamwork, right? So like i you know like anything,
00:26:31
Speaker
building a diverse group of individuals with diverse experiences and training is just going to better the environment and better the information that you're you're transmitting to to to learners.
00:26:43
Speaker
so I will enjoy and and and like the model of incorporating and working with MDs and PhDs and people from different background because I think that pushes or propels that lifelong learning. I learn consistently in ALG. I feel like I am exposed to clinical medicine which really opens my eyes based, you know,
00:27:08
Speaker
compared to my training. So I feel like I learn all the time from my my colleague and I learn all the time from my students in what they're learning. And I really enjoy that I i love that aspect of ALG but that wouldn't happen if it was just wouldn't happen as much if it was just you know a bunch of phd sitting around talking about their research so like i feel like. That's a wonderful aspect of of medicine and medical curriculum medical education is the diversity of the participants in a professional collaboration.
00:27:42
Speaker
sharing ideas, sharing you know your knowledge. that's That's a big part, I think, of medical education, and one of the things that I really like about CMSRU. Do you like sometimes PhDs and MDs speak like different languages? Yeah. I don't think you you're you're off base about that. but um That might have like different value different things in the whole learning process.
00:28:04
Speaker
I think that's possible. um And I'm sure you could ask different students, you know, their, their impressions on PhD educators versus MDs. But I mean, at the end of the day, I still hope that we're all there for the students. And we're all there for for education purposes and training purposes. So, you know, I'm sure there's different nuances in terms of their approaches to education. But At the end of the day, as faculty, we're all there to to assist the learner and we're there to help you grow and help you reach your goals of being a physician someday. so and That brings us all together.
Personal Interests and Work-Life Balance
00:28:41
Speaker
Cheers to that. um With that, it's time for a lightning round, a series of fast-paced questions that tell us more about you. Okay. Do you have like a favorite hobby in high school or college?
00:28:52
Speaker
Favorite hobby in high school or college? I played golf when I was in high school. I don't get to play so much anymore. So I have three little kids at home, um Addie, Nolan and Carter. So there's seven, five and three. So, so getting out for four or five hours to play 18 holes on the weekend, you know, it's a lot to ask my wife to go through, but we went to, I went to top golf the other day for the first time. That was cool. I don't know if you've ever participated. Yeah, I did that. It's a good time. Did you go to the one in Mount Laurel?
00:29:19
Speaker
There is one there, but and we went to one in King of Prussia. So I'm actually in PA. I'm actually closer to like Plymouth Meeting, King of Prussia area. But we went there actually for an alumni event from ah Thomas Jefferson. So that was my first time going. It it was a cool vibe, cool cool environment. I like that. But um yeah, don't get to play the very much anymore. Unfortunately, maybe once or twice a year with the family applications. What's up art form you connect with? Art form that I connect with?
00:29:48
Speaker
Um, that's a good question. Like music, art, reading. Those are all art forms that one would connect with. I don't know if I necessarily would say that, uh, you know, I'm key into a lot of those. Um, you know, I don't, uh,
00:30:08
Speaker
don't really look at a lot of those mediums typically, um you know passively. yeah Certainly listening to music on my way into work and things of that sort, but um you know going to museums if we're traveling abroad or things of that sort. But I wouldn't necessarily say that that those are You know, key ah components of myself. Yeah, you're getting busy with the kids, I'm sure. I don't know, it's it's kind of a, parenting is a full-time job for sure. so Don't get me wrong, I love it. Every moment of it, I feel like I was born to be a dad, but um yeah, that that and takes up a lot of your time. So I don't have a lot of free time for music and podcasts and and reading and art um as much as I might like to. What's your favorite activity to do with your kids?
00:30:59
Speaker
Favorite activity to do with my kids. um I don't know, just going outside playing outside. We have a swing set out back. The kids love to ride bikes and things like that. So I like to be active as much as we can with the kids. You know, we go on walks all the time and, you know,
00:31:16
Speaker
try to go hiking or in trails and things like that. So it's that's fun. My kids are doing soccer this year as well. So I'm a soccer coach and try to get them involved in outside and playing. I feel like they're sometimes overly reliant on their iPads and there's only so much bluey in Caillou that i can I can watch. So, um you know, I like to get them out and be active, but we do all kinds of stuff, um you know, artwork and,
00:31:41
Speaker
crafts and things around the house, but it's it's nice to get them out outside and be active. What's your pet peeve? I am very OCD and structured and regimented and and and organized and so even staying with the the kids narrative for a second, it's taking a lot of development and patience on my end as a dad to realize that ah clutter is okay, mess is okay, you know, disorganization is okay, I'm not always going to come home to ah a table that's nice and clean. um So um that's more of like my own self development and ah awareness, self improvement, just just um
00:32:25
Speaker
moving past some of those OCD qualities that I have for for cleanliness and organization. Well, I can attest your slides are very organized. So yeah, maybe there's some ah similarities there. um And lastly, what's one change you'd like to see in health care? Change in health care. I think sometimes I can even this is me speaking as a parent more as a patient and ah a parent of patients.
00:32:52
Speaker
It feels like some aspects of medicine are overly reliant on insurance and insurance coverages. And I feel like sometimes it feels like insurance can dictate your approach and your treatment plan. My son who has pretty severe asthma, unfortunately I feel like I am on the phone with insurance carriers all the time trying to see which inhaler is covered and which is not and and what hoops we have to jump through and speaking with his pulmonologist who has to change their medical decision-making and approach based on what inhaler is covered. I feel like I wish that wasn't the case and that you know medical decision-making wasn't dictated on what insurance decides to cover and what they don't. All right, Dr. David Swope, thanks for joining the show. Thank you very much. I appreciate being here.
00:33:54
Speaker
Thanks for listening to The Wound Dresser. Until next time, I'm your host John Neery. Be well.