Transcript
Speaker: Hey friends, just wanted to give you a quick update on Godspell here before we get started.
Speaker: Auditions are one week from Saturday, so if you are interested in being a part of the production or know anybody that would like to be a part of the production, we have online registration open until Monday.
Speaker: If you aren't able to get registered online or, you know, you're not sure and you kind of decide last minute, we are accepting walk-in auditions as well.
Speaker: So feel free to show up on the day and you can audition as well.
Speaker: Thanks!
Speaker: Hope you guys enjoyed the episode.
Speaker: Hey friends, welcome back to Artists of the Way.
Speaker: I'm John, the host.
Speaker: Today, you'll notice a couple different things.
Speaker: One, my audio sounds a little different.
Speaker: And two, we don't have video.
Speaker: That's my fault because my wife and I are traveling and I wasn't able to pack my normal mic, so I've got a little portable mic.
Speaker: And then I kind of messed up the video recording part of the podcast.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: It's a really great episode so I hope you guys keep listening.
Speaker: I have my friend John Taylor back on today and we speak about video games as art and what it means to kind of play video games from a Christian perspective and how that art form informs us.
Speaker: It was a really great discussion and I really enjoyed it.
Speaker: I hope you guys enjoy the episode as well.
Speaker: So how are you doing?
Speaker: I'm doing well.
Speaker: I just took a nap, so I feel rested.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: I just went for a hike, so we did the opposite.
Speaker: The opposite?
Speaker: I had a two-hour walk two days ago.
Speaker: Two days ago, I had a two-hour walk because it was just nice out and it was easy to do.
Speaker: It's been a nice couple of days.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Then I escaped to Colorado where I can literally, we went on this little hike and you can see like a wall of snow and rain just slowly making the mountains invisible.
Speaker: It's a fun time.
Speaker: Good.
Speaker: Sweet.
Speaker: So we are going to chat about video games today, which is something you and I mentioned briefly the last time you were on.
Speaker: Obviously, you and I talk about video games outside of the couple of times I've had you on.
Speaker: But I think we both shared the sentiment, I think we've talked about it before, that there's a lot of value to games.
Speaker: So I just wanted to kind of unpack those.
Speaker: I think it's an important medium.
Speaker: And so I wanted to just chat with you about it and see what God's doing.
Speaker: And so I think the first question with that, to even have the conversation, is to ask, are video games even art?
Speaker: So what are your thoughts on that subject?
Speaker: Do they belong on this podcast?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: If the answer is no, then it's like a five-minute episode.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It was funny to me just because I was reading the rest of the questions, and it just assumes the answer will be yes, which is correct.
Speaker: It absolutely are, or the minimalist can be.
Speaker: See, here's my promise.
Speaker: I'll just say yes.
Speaker: Because like, I think people are like, video games can be art if they're done a certain way.
Speaker: I'm like, no, if they're done a certain way, they can just be bad art.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like, the whole like, are video games are art, are video games art discussion.
Speaker: I think people like make it the assumption that like, in order to be art, they have to be good art.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Which isn't, like, necessarily true.
Speaker: I mean, they should be good because everything should strive to be excellent.
Speaker: But it's not... I don't think, like... There's not, like, a benchmark you have to cross where it's like, and now it's made it to Artland.
Speaker: Yeah, right?
Speaker: Like, it'd be weird if we did the other thing that with other forms of art where they were like, all right, kids, where it's time for not really arts and crafts because none of you are good enough yet.
Speaker: So just crafts.
Speaker: Like, for Daniel, this is art.
Speaker: For all the rest of you who are terrible, this is just something that we're doing.
Speaker: I'm, like, curious if that's... Because now you have me thinking if that's happened before.
Speaker: Because I know, like, thinking about painting, I just read this really awesome book called Rembrandt is in the Wind that went through a bunch of different paintings.
Speaker: Well, just artists in general and, like, talked about that and faith.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: When it got to Van Gogh and Monet and talking about the Impressionists, I don't know a lot of the discourse that was happening around that, but I wonder if there was a point where people were like, this isn't art, this is just smudging things on a canvas.
Speaker: Or if video games are kind of unique in that sense of like, no, it can't be art because it's like a game or something, you know?
Speaker: I mean, there's, I think, a facsimile in, like, people have asked, or people have said, like, rap isn't really music.
Speaker: And you're just like, well, no, it is.
Speaker: Like, unless you have a definite mission of music that somehow intentionally excludes rap, it has all the characteristics of music.
Speaker: What people are actually saying is, I don't like it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So I think the same comes up with art.
Speaker: Unless you have a definition of art that intentionally excludes video games, then I haven't looked up philosophical definitions of art.
Speaker: But I think they would talk something about aesthetics and visuals.
Speaker: Not necessarily visuals, but...
Speaker: aesthetic in a broader sense, including, like, poetry and music sense of a thing that's enjoyed for that purpose, which I think video games fall into.
Speaker: Maybe, like, edutainment games might not fall into that purpose.
Speaker: Well, yeah, because you mentioned, like, the visual component, too, and I guess... Because I feel like in, like, the general...
Speaker: the idea of video games as art is like something that I feel like has come about like within or close to our lifetimes, but games have existed for a lot longer.
Speaker: And I think even just in figuring out how to render things in 8-bit and make it visually pleasing, that in and of itself is some form of an artistic thing, you know?
Speaker: Yeah, and I mean, I think the whole thing still hinges on video games being...
Speaker: from a world perspective, new, right?
Speaker: Like music and painting and poetry, thousands of years old.
Speaker: And plays are thousands of years old.
Speaker: TV and movie, obviously not.
Speaker: Obviously a little over 100 years old at this point.
Speaker: But maybe we'll get into more of this later.
Speaker: There's video games are distinct in
Speaker: a more distinct way than I think other forms of art that I think gets to it.
Speaker: I also think... I was thinking about this the other day.
Speaker: For a long time, especially I think even within our lifespans, video games were seen as like a thing that kids do.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And maybe a thing that some adults do, but mostly it's kids.
Speaker: If adults are doing it, it's because they did it as kids or they're doing it with their kids.
Speaker: Yeah, right.
Speaker: And now, Vigium's been around for 30, 40 years.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: In, you know, in like home consoles, 30, 40 years for home consoles.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: It's just people have grown up with them and now adults play video games all the time because they grew up with it.
Speaker: It was just... I do wonder somewhat if there's a degree of like... In 1917... Were there like old people who were like... Movies are a kid's thing.
Speaker: I do know that when film first entered...
Speaker: like the artistic world, like that was where bad actors went to.
Speaker: Like that was the general consensus was if you're going into movies, it's because you can't make it at the real thing.
Speaker: So you're doing the cheap thing instead.
Speaker: So I know movies had to push through something similar.
Speaker: I don't think quite the same thing because video games, a, they have the word game on them, which, you know, makes people think, Oh, this is playing.
Speaker: This isn't art.
Speaker: They don't have to be mutually exclusive.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: and then obviously you alluded a little bit to the interactive piece which i'm sure we'll touch on yes absolutely coming up here but yeah yeah cool so we'll approach the final question that the answer to that question is yes yeah i i totally agree so continuing on the the premise that it is art which we both agree on um as an art form
Speaker: What are some ways that it does differ from other narrative forms of art or other like visual forms of art as well?
Speaker: Obviously we mentioned the interactive thing.
Speaker: We can get into that a little bit more too, but what are, are there other ways outside of that?
Speaker: I think there are, but I think, I think the interactive thing has to be the first thing discussed because I think it will go into the other things.
Speaker: Because,
Speaker: Almost no form of media outside of video games is interactive by the receiver.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Obviously, a play, a movie.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Like as its default, because there can be like plays or something written for an audience to participate.
Speaker: But video games is the default.
Speaker: Yeah, so I was going to say there are choose your own adventure books.
Speaker: There are plays and things like that with audience interaction.
Speaker: There's even art installations like sculptures that are designed to have people come up and draw on this or come up and do this kind of stuff.
Speaker: And that's part of the artist vision.
Speaker: Or you can think of the same thing as concerts where there are intentional spots where the artist will stop singing because they know the audience is going to fill in the gaps in a song.
Speaker: But again, that's not like you said.
Speaker: I think those can be seen as like an exception and not like it even certainly not essential to that.
Speaker: medium right like a sculpture doesn't have to have people interact with it to do it in a book you have to read it but you don't make any choices right or do anything and that i think we'll get to the second distinction which is especially if we're talking about narrative art in a video game depending on the video game for the most part
Speaker: The story itself can be different depending on the playthrough.
Speaker: Because in most games, almost every game, some form of side quest exists.
Speaker: And that makes my playthrough...
Speaker: different than your playthrough.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Now, it could be the same if we both go out and do every side quest.
Speaker: Even then, we're not necessarily doing it in the same order.
Speaker: But I can have, I mean, to think of an example, Majora's Mask, Legend of Zelda Majora's Mask, has like a long side quest that involves like a ton of characters and a bunch of story and a bunch of locations.
Speaker: All totally optional.
Speaker: You never do it, you can finish the game fine.
Speaker: But it is a major thing for people who do it.
Speaker: And it highlights why is it important to save this world and what are the things that have gone wrong because of this evil entity and all these things happen.
Speaker: But if you don't want to, you can skip it.
Speaker: You can skip the whole thing.
Speaker: Which doesn't happen in...
Speaker: movies, right?
Speaker: Like, I guess you could have some argument of deleted scenes or whatever, but that's not part of the final product.
Speaker: There's not, in a movie, there's not part of the final product that you can just skip.
Speaker: Right, the audience can't just be like, this is a part that I don't want, unless they, like, go make a fan edit, but that's super neat.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah, unless they make a fan edit, they'd be like, I'm not interested in the stuff with Hawkeye's family.
Speaker: I don't really care about that.
Speaker: Let's get back to Ultron.
Speaker: Like, they, in...
Speaker: most forms of art, those decisions about what's included is made for you.
Speaker: And then you receive it in a video game.
Speaker: You go, Hey, my son is got captured by some bandits.
Speaker: And you're like, I don't really care.
Speaker: Like, or I do care, but you get to make that decision.
Speaker: And based on that,
Speaker: that might determine a whole bunch of things.
Speaker: I mean, that can determine another weird one, which isn't even typically thought of as like a strong narrative game, is like Pokemon.
Speaker: But officially, according to the Pokemon lore, all Pokemon save files are different alternate universes within the Pokemon universe because they're all, hey, the player became the champion if you beat the game, but with entirely different groups of Pokemon.
Speaker: and how they justify that from a story perspective.
Speaker: Again, these are not story-strong games.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But instead, these are all alternate universes.
Speaker: Every time you play or anyone plays Pokemon, those are all canon alternate universes.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: And that's it.
Speaker: But that idea is like, hey, again, I'm making choices that
Speaker: determine some of the story, which is different than other narrative art forms.
Speaker: I think that's really, I think that's interesting to think about the audience engaging in that, because I think, you know, usually about art from the perspective of somebody who's creating something.
Speaker: I think a lot of people who listen to the podcast do.
Speaker: And so theater being the one I'm most familiar with, when you're either directing or acting, even if you're just acting with lines that are already written, you are making choices that inform the story.
Speaker: Absolutely.
Speaker: But the audience, like they can't, unless it's, again, written for that purpose.
Speaker: So I feel like I had not even like put these pieces together, but it like video games create...
Speaker: an easy way, an accessible way for audiences to get in and co-create with the story and have some of that.
Speaker: In some ways, video games make you a storyteller or part of the storytelling.
Speaker: No, you can't do anything.
Speaker: I can't determine.
Speaker: Obviously, there are still story beats that are written.
Speaker: I can't determine.
Speaker: Actually, John Marston lived in the year 2157 and was a...
Speaker: Brewer.
Speaker: Like, no, there's the theory that he exists in.
Speaker: But yeah, like when you're talking about, I think you can say the same thing almost that I said about Pokemon with plays.
Speaker: Where it's, hey, a billion people, not a billion, a million people have played Jean Valjean.
Speaker: But no one has exactly played Jean Valjean like you've played Jean Valjean.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I think you do this, I think this comes up, especially with Christian theaters a fair amount, is Christian theaters don't do
Speaker: exclusively Christian plays all the time.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: We did Fiddler on the Roof together.
Speaker: That's not a... That's not made to be an exclusive Christian show.
Speaker: It's kind of made to be a Jewish show in many ways.
Speaker: Yeah, right?
Speaker: But in a lot of ways, Christians will take these shows... Now, there are obviously some... Book of Job is an explicitly Christian show.
Speaker: And other ones... Horizons of Gold was an explicitly Christian show.
Speaker: But there are...
Speaker: many times where you take a not explicitly Christian show and you say, hey, this is not a Christian show.
Speaker: We're going to get back to this idea, by the way.
Speaker: I'm just realizing.
Speaker: You take these things and you pull out these themes.
Speaker: They're like, this theme is really about, the show is really about redemption or about loyalty, about courage, about all these things, facing your fears.
Speaker: And how do we emphasize those things to kind of put forward a Christian perspective in what's not inherently a Christian show?
Speaker: And that interactivity comes in for the director, for the actors, for that kind of thing.
Speaker: And video games, I think, kind of put you in that seat.
Speaker: Can we put an official spoiler warning on this video?
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: So I think we're going to talk about, because I know it's a game we both enjoy, Red Dead Redemption 2.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Games like this, a lot of games do this now, have an actual morality system in the game.
Speaker: And the decisions you make for Arthur Morgan, or as Arthur Morgan, change interactions in the game and change how the game ends.
Speaker: And if you are a...
Speaker: will say what I think genuinely is the proper way to play the game.
Speaker: If you're going on a good play through and actually seeking to make Arthur a better man throughout the play through, you would get this more sense of redemption and this broader sense of what it really means to have change and courage and all these kinds of things.
Speaker: But you don't have to do that.
Speaker: Like there are endings for if you just play him as a jerk the whole time and he just gets killed.
Speaker: Trying to get the money.
Speaker: Yeah, he tries to get the money and Mike stabs him.
Speaker: And that ending exists, but that option for the player or for the person to become a storyteller, obviously Rockstar made those endings.
Speaker: So again, you can't choose much as we hate it.
Speaker: There's no option where Arthur Morgan lives, right?
Speaker: He always dies at the end of the game.
Speaker: But how he dies and how he's viewed by the people that survive him
Speaker: And what you choose to bring out in him, that actual has effects and highlights that change.
Speaker: And that's something you do as the player, as the receiver, because I didn't make the game.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Roxadar got to make all the decisions, like, in a way, a play director, about what was going to be included, what was not going to be included.
Speaker: But like I said earlier, video games, in a way, let you become a storyteller.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because I decide, hey, you know, Link doesn't care at all about Caffey and Andrew's story in my playthrough.
Speaker: You can play Breath of the Wild and be like, yep, I think I just care about saving Hyrule.
Speaker: I don't care about the memories.
Speaker: And that comes out to a very different experience than if you played a different way.
Speaker: Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker: So two...
Speaker: Two thoughts slash questions.
Speaker: Because talking about that, like you're... When you were talking about the plays and ones that aren't necessarily explicitly written to be Christian, but you're pulling themes out of that.
Speaker: And this might... This is getting, I feel like, more intellectual or theological than people normally get when they're thinking about playing a game.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: Do you feel like there's value as a player going into a game where you're like, okay, there's a whole range of things I could engage with, some that are, you know, more...
Speaker: Christian, I guess.
Speaker: That's not the word I want to use, but you get what I'm saying.
Speaker: Versus not.
Speaker: Like, I'm thinking about, like, Baldur's Gate 3 is a huge, massive sprawling RPG that came out recently where you can do basically anything, which means you can do many not great things.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Do you think there's some value for...
Speaker: I guess it's just a way to connect it to like spiritual practice or something to be like, I'm going to engage with this maybe just for a playthrough or something with the idea of being like, let's, let's see what the most redemptive, uh, reflective thing about God is in this.
Speaker: And can I keep steering towards that?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I think this even gets into your later questions, I think about what good is there in art or what, what good for the soul is there in games.
Speaker: And I think, um,
Speaker: This gets into a lot of things.
Speaker: And I think you even see this.
Speaker: I'm going to go not to video games right away.
Speaker: I'm going to give the example of a well-known, very much Christian author was J.R.R.
Speaker: Tolkien, right?
Speaker: He was a Catholic man.
Speaker: He was committed.
Speaker: He led people to Christ.
Speaker: And he wrote from a Christian perspective.
Speaker: His biggest work doesn't mention Christ, doesn't mention the Bible.
Speaker: That doesn't exist in Middle Earth.
Speaker: It's not like Lewis where it doesn't mention Jesus, but Aslan.
Speaker: It's very much not there, but he is still very much writing from a Christian perspective and a Christian kind of centered life and values because he's intentionally bringing out
Speaker: all these themes of redemption, loyalty, doing what's right even when it's hard, kind of the pain and difficulty that comes with leaving what you're comfortable with to do what you need to do because you understand what's right.
Speaker: These ideas of kinship and courage and kind of risking...
Speaker: I keep kind of saying the same thing, but kind of a big theme in Middle-earth is kind of risking yourself to do what's right.
Speaker: And we see that with... I mean, obviously, the main story of Frodo going on this death mission and all these people.
Speaker: We see it all the time of, hey... Farmer Maggot.
Speaker: Yeah, Farmer Maggot.
Speaker: Théoden goes out and says, hey...
Speaker: we're probably gonna die, but it's still the right thing to do.
Speaker: That's what Eowyn and Merry do when they go to fight the Witch King.
Speaker: They're like, hey, we're probably gonna die, but it's still the right thing to do.
Speaker: And absolutely at the Black Gate, everyone there is like, we're gonna die, but in doing so, we're gonna give Frodo a chance to save everyone.
Speaker: So this idea that without, you don't have to have this explicitly Christian perspective or explicitly Christian messaging
Speaker: to have Christian values and perspective and things brought out.
Speaker: I think that absolutely is the case in video games, right?
Speaker: I think about it all the time.
Speaker: It's my favorite video game series, Legend of Zelda.
Speaker: The main theme in every Legend of Zelda game is courage.
Speaker: If you've ever played Legend of Zelda, the whole thing, there are these different powers.
Speaker: There's Triforces.
Speaker: They are powerful entities in the world.
Speaker: And they're assigned to values.
Speaker: There's one for power that's always for the bad guy.
Speaker: Bad guy always has a Triforce of power.
Speaker: There's one for wisdom that's always for Zelda.
Speaker: She's always a side character even when she's occasionally semi-playable.
Speaker: And the main character always has the Triforce of Courage.
Speaker: So the games are always about going out, being brave, being bold.
Speaker: Now, the games are not Christian games.
Speaker: These are, you know, as far as I know, Masahiro Morimoto is not.
Speaker: I think that's who made them.
Speaker: is not a Christian.
Speaker: But this perspective of Christian fighting against, or courage, fighting against evil, fighting for those who, standing up for those who are weak, all these things are Christian values and values that Christians should understand and participate in.
Speaker: So I think there is a big value in
Speaker: games of seeing these and kind of being able to experience them in a different way because i think the way you do things in a game will especially play a lot ultimately kind of shape how you think um again i think this gets very much into the next question of what
Speaker: What good do video games do for the soul?
Speaker: Because I think you... I think for Christian, I don't want to say there's almost a... obligation to play games in kind of a redemptive way.
Speaker: But I think that's typically the wisest choice.
Speaker: Is to play games in a redemptive way.
Speaker: Where you're looking at essentially, hey... How...
Speaker: this is gonna sound weird how do i make this character a christian um the sense of how do i do what's right i might get into another thing later on but i might go with a later question so i'll let you have share some some thoughts before i uh delve into that no that's good i'm just enjoying listening um
Speaker: Yeah, the idea of like... Because I feel like video games in general... Like they just... They put you in situations where I feel like that is hard to do.
Speaker: I guess the ones that I play at least.
Speaker: Because I tend towards intense narrative driven ones.
Speaker: So the ones that I tend to play.
Speaker: But like... And I...
Speaker: I don't even know if I have a fully formed thought, but that's just an interesting idea to bring into something.
Speaker: Like I think about something like Dark Souls, where it's like, this is a hellscape of monsters and people that you can't trust and you can kill whatever, you know, and it's Gothic and horrifying.
Speaker: And how do you walk through that as with a Christian spirit?
Speaker: What's a Christian perspective on that as a follower of Christ, even though it's some kind of fantastical,
Speaker: crazy thing that we probably won't like experience.
Speaker: Yeah, of course.
Speaker: Are there... Principles is not the word I want to use, but it's the word I'm landing on.
Speaker: Like, things to keep in mind for playing games in a redemptive way.
Speaker: Does that always have to mean good things happen, or do you think it could still be tragic or...
Speaker: cautionary or something and still be redemptive.
Speaker: I mean, absolutely.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Cause we have, I think the same thing will come out in like acting, right.
Speaker: Is if you're a Christian, do you always have to play someone who absolutely lives by Christian values all the time?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And it's just like, well, no, if you're going to do hunchback of Notre Dame,
Speaker: somebody has to play Frollo, right?
Speaker: And everyone can't go, no, I won't play Frollo because he's a terrible person, which he is.
Speaker: But I think you have to do that kind of with the eye towards...
Speaker: the greater story, narrative story.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And I'm part of this and the, I'm playing kind of a cautionary role.
Speaker: And then I think you also have to play into the idea that you're not in a game.
Speaker: You're not you, right?
Speaker: You're making decisions, but you're not you.
Speaker: So when I play red dead redemption, I robbed trains and I burned down houses and I helped,
Speaker: I didn't kill the guy, but I helped kill that guy in the swamp and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker: But again, do I have... I am playing as Arthur Morgan, who absolutely does these things and becomes parts of his character.
Speaker: I think one of the kind of strange things about Red Dead Redemption is like...
Speaker: Redemption is kind of a through line of the whole story.
Speaker: But also really at the end.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like, there's like a good three chapters where you're just kind of a criminal.
Speaker: Which is like half the story.
Speaker: Yeah, right.
Speaker: Well, and that's my point is in these games, I think there's a difference between making a choice to do something evil or dark or whatever and
Speaker: Playing through a scenario where the character is doing something illegal.
Speaker: I mean, like I said, in Red Dead, one of the first things you do is rob a train.
Speaker: And then you rob a bank, and you go and beat up debtors.
Speaker: Just checking all the Western tropes off.
Speaker: Yeah, right?
Speaker: The game is so cowboy.
Speaker: It's insane.
Speaker: You go, and if you want to, you can hold up the general store, which would be a terrible idea.
Speaker: But you can go and...
Speaker: rustle up cattle for money or whatever like but again i think these things are almost necessary to see the whole theme of redemption if right if arthur morgan was just a glowing guy right from the start who always did everything right uh it wouldn't really be about redemption it'd just be about it'd be red dead good guy arthur morgan
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: He's a rootin' tootin' nice cowboy.
Speaker: Yeah, he's a rootin' tootin' nice cowboy who never messes with people.
Speaker: He's part of a gang, but is always just helping people out.
Speaker: And I think, like, yeah.
Speaker: I think there's a thing in games where there's a difference between I'm going to actively choose kind of a darker path.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: and this character is already in a dark place, and I'm going to try to choose to live a certain way within that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I feel like this kind of bleeds into the next question with that is I feel like, and this is something that I think is true of art in general too, when you're existing in that dark place creatively,
Speaker: even as just a player who is helping create the story of the game that you're in, that kind of puts you on this weird tightrope that you're walking where it can be really easy to tip off to indulgence or to dark places that aren't healthy for you emotionally or spiritually.
Speaker: So I guess...
Speaker: What are ways where you see some red flags of like, these are ways that video games can really not be good in helping shape us.
Speaker: And what are some ways to combat that so that as we try and engage with video games in any way that is redemptive and embraces the good of the art that's there, that we can try and avoid those things?
Speaker: I think I'll go to two things here.
Speaker: And I think a lot of gamers have what I'll call like the 100%ers mindset or the perfectionist mindset where I want to see completionist.
Speaker: I want to see everything in the game.
Speaker: And I think for a Christian trying to live rightly, I think at times you have to give that up to be a good Christian because doing everything will entail
Speaker: doing and seeing some real bad stuff.
Speaker: It depends on the game, obviously.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Zelda 100% would be great.
Speaker: Baldur's Gate 3 100% would be... Yeah, that's the thing, right?
Speaker: Zelda, every side quest, you're heroic.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Everything you do in Zelda, you're always the good guy.
Speaker: It's always about, hey, you can either help save this town or not help save this town.
Speaker: You can't go...
Speaker: kill everyone in the town.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: For money.
Speaker: Or, hey, you can either help join this raiding party to clear up some monsters, or you can not do that, but you can't kill the good guys and attack the women and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker: Other games, that's an option, right?
Speaker: Other games, you have the option to say, hey, I'm going to basically be the bad guy.
Speaker: I'm going to make evil choices.
Speaker: And I think in some cases, especially games with, it depends on the person, but especially games with uber-violence and sexual and really dark stuff, if you're getting into demonic stuff and that kind of stuff.
Speaker: And I'll go demonic in a more realistic demonic sense, as opposed to like...
Speaker: Oftentimes fantasy will connect vampires or werewolves like demonic activity.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But they're very much a fantasy thing first.
Speaker: Same thing with like HP Lovecraft type monsters.
Speaker: Like they're kind of viewed as like evil spiritual things in their world.
Speaker: But they're not that connected to actual demonic things.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Once you're getting into actual demonic things...
Speaker: I think you're walking into real dangerous territory that you just shouldn't be in.
Speaker: So I think that's something that Christians need to break is this kind of mental attitude that if I'm going to play this game, I'm going to see every part.
Speaker: I'm going to see every ending.
Speaker: Some of those endings aren't going to be good for you to see.
Speaker: And that kind of goes into my second thing is I think a Christian needs to think about when they're playing a game.
Speaker: And obviously you don't know this right from the get-go, but is there...
Speaker: redemptive ways to play this game.
Speaker: And most of the time there is.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: Two, in almost every narrative, most games, most books are about
Speaker: doing the right things, right?
Speaker: Most of the time, our heroes, our main characters are heroes.
Speaker: Not every time.
Speaker: You have Ballads of Snakes and Songbirds where it's about people essentially turning evil.
Speaker: And I think those can serve as cautionary tales.
Speaker: And I think those aren't inherently off limits.
Speaker: It's a little harder in a video game for me to do that just because...
Speaker: in a play, in a movie, in a book, I'm more observing something.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I'm observing someone make bad choices and I can mentally say, no, don't do that.
Speaker: Like I can, I can, I'm not the character.
Speaker: I can attach myself and say that's wrong.
Speaker: I'm still not the character in a game.
Speaker: It's harder for me to say, no, don't do that.
Speaker: When I'm the one who pressed the buttons to do it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And something too, with even like thinking about portraying,
Speaker: something evil in a play as an actor that comes after reading the script several times doing analysis doing a lot of rehearsals we're in video games it's like spur of the moment do you want to do this really evil thing or not you know and it's like oh now you have to decide and it's not like well what's interesting thematically and then let me detach and ponder and see how this plays out
Speaker: Yeah, it's very different.
Speaker: And there's a... I think video games oftentimes, especially certain type Telltale-style games, intentionally put you in really hard situations, right?
Speaker: They make you make agonizing decisions about, hey, are you going to do this thing your character wants to do or not?
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Or, hey, which of these people do you want to save?
Speaker: One of them's going to die.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that's, again, the situation there is, there's a big difference between I'm in a situation as a character and have to decide.
Speaker: It's a lot different to say, hey, I'm going to let Carlos die.
Speaker: Then, hey, they both could survive, but I'm going to kill Carlos anyways.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And yeah, I think, like I said, I think a thing to look out for is, is there a way to play this game in a redemptive way?
Speaker: And that doesn't even always mean I, as a character, do the right thing all the time.
Speaker: Sometimes we aren't given the option.
Speaker: Again, Red Dead Redemption, one of the possible quests, mostly side quests, are going and beating up debtors.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: It's one of the worst feeling things you can do in the game.
Speaker: Oh, I hear it.
Speaker: You cringe.
Speaker: One of those is a mandatory storage, right?
Speaker: You have to do it if you want to progress in the game.
Speaker: Now, you could decide.
Speaker: I think there's an option, too, that Christians need to consider at some point saying, hey, if th is is something I have to do, then I'm not going to play this game anymore.
Speaker: That's an option.
Speaker: I don't think that's necessarily the case in Red Dead Redemption.
Speaker: Obviously, I've played through it.
Speaker: But in this case, you even see... There's something you have to do in the game.
Speaker: And the plot lines are so interesting because it's one of the places where you can see definitive character progression on Arthur's part.
Speaker: Because as long as you've played in a redemptive way, in later things, you get the option to say, we're doing the wrong thing.
Speaker: Like, my crew that I'm a part of...
Speaker: is in the wrong and I'm not going to be a part of it anymore in this, in this way and say, Hey, this guy who is this debt collector is ruining people's lives.
Speaker: And then after the ruin, I'm going and beating him up.
Speaker: Um, and I'm not, you get the option to say, I'm not going to be a part of this anymore and forgive the debts and give people money and throw the guy out of the camp.
Speaker: Um, um,
Speaker: And that's something where you can see that's a redemptive way to play, right?
Speaker: You have the option to just get the money on those later collections too.
Speaker: But you have the option to play in a redemptive way.
Speaker: Whereas I can't even think of a ton of examples where there's no redemptive way to play.
Speaker: The original God of War games.
Speaker: And I was going to say, I don't even think that's because they don't exist.
Speaker: It's because I would avoid playing.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Those first God of War games, I feel like, before the reboots, from what I know, those are pretty non-redemptive games, by and large, with what your character's doing.
Speaker: And again, I think it's just kind of on the personal Christian's conscious and understanding to say, hey, at some point,
Speaker: if I'm in a game, this story needs to turn eventually.
Speaker: And if I feel like I'm not getting to a point where it's turning, I might just need to stop.
Speaker: And then there's some games where it feels, I don't want to say, everything is sacred, everything is holy.
Speaker: There are games that feel more detached, because like...
Speaker: Do I play Minecraft in a redemptive way when I'm digging and making houses and all this kind of stuff?
Speaker: I don't know that I'm playing that in a redemptive way.
Speaker: I think it's just more of a form of rest.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But... So I think there are games where that's less of a distinct question.
Speaker: But there's also less... Opportunity for wrong in those kind of games.
Speaker: Same thing that I'm playing...
Speaker: Angry Birds.
Speaker: Is there a redemptive way to play Angry Birds?
Speaker: No, but I'm also not engaging in anything.
Speaker: Christian pacifist birds.
Speaker: Yeah, right.
Speaker: They embrace nonviolence.
Speaker: I'm not engaging in anything that I think is clearly objectionable.
Speaker: It becomes harder in games like Red Dead Redemption or...
Speaker: uh dark souls types games call of duty type games where i have the option to do pretty bad stuff yep um do i also have the option to do not bad stuff yeah that's great that's awesome so weird question off of that that's completely silly
Speaker: doom the game where you're a superhero shooting demons is that inherently redemptive yeah i mean i i've had a long-standing rule in games board games video games everything i don't screw with teaming up this is important with demons i have no problem with killing demons
Speaker: Doom is a game all about killing demons.
Speaker: It's also the same thing happens in Broforce.
Speaker: Broforce is a game.
Speaker: It's a super 80s action movie inspired.
Speaker: Not really an RPG.
Speaker: It's kind of a dungeon crawler type thing.
Speaker: Yeah, 2D beat-em-up type thing.
Speaker: And you start by fighting enemy militaries, terrorists.
Speaker: Then you're fighting actual aliens from the movie Alien.
Speaker: And you end up fighting demons and killing the devils.
Speaker: I don't have a problem with it.
Speaker: I have no problem.
Speaker: I don't know that I would even call that inherently redemptive.
Speaker: It's just... There's also the thing in video games where, like, in video games often, we've talked about it already, you kill people, right?
Speaker: It happens in a lot of games.
Speaker: That is morally objectionable most of the time.
Speaker: I think there's a couple ways games get around this for me, and if people have a conscious problem with them,
Speaker: With this... Okay.
Speaker: I would understand it.
Speaker: A lot of times you're not killing people, right?
Speaker: In Breath of the Wild, I guess the Yiga people who are trying to assassinate you are people, but you're killing them essentially out of self-defense.
Speaker: Everything else is monsters.
Speaker: They're fantasy, pure evil monsters who...
Speaker: aren't to be reasoned.
Speaker: They're not going to reason with you.
Speaker: They're just trying to kill you and everyone else.
Speaker: So you're killing them because they're evil.
Speaker: Same thing with all sorts of things.
Speaker: Zombies come up in games all the time.
Speaker: All this kind of stuff.
Speaker: There are games, of course, where you kill people, but even a lot of that time, it's set in what I'll call a more morally gray or even permissible things like killing someone in your house bad and
Speaker: Killing someone in a military action, like Call of Duty, is maybe unfortunate, but the discussion of whether or not it's moral is a much more... You can land on the side that it is moral, right?
Speaker: And again, that's where I'll get into things.
Speaker: If you're in a game where you're just killing people,
Speaker: you're probably not in a great place.
Speaker: Even Red Dead Redemption 2, I'm trying to think, you don't often have to kill people that aren't attempting to kill you.
Speaker: You can choose to if you want.
Speaker: Yeah, you absolutely can.
Speaker: kill random store owners and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker: You don't have to though.
Speaker: Most of the people you end up having to kill in the game are O'Driscoll's that are robbing you or dirty cops that are trying to kill you and your crew and all this kind of stuff.
Speaker: And again, you can wrestle morally with what that is, but I think most of the time in games, you can, in a game I'd be willing to play, I think I can make the case that what I've done is
Speaker: At least morally permissible.
Speaker: Maybe not morally good, but at least morally permissible.
Speaker: And I feel like, too, I don't know where we got to this, but it's interesting.
Speaker: I feel like, too, there's something about fighting being one of the primary ways in which you engage with a game, where I feel like it...
Speaker: And, you know, you can debate about whether or not this is good or bad, but I feel like the fact that there's violence and killing gets desensitized a little bit.
Speaker: But I think a plus to that is when I enter Red Dead 2 and I'm like, okay, well, now I'm running because I have this mission where I'm supposed to steal this carriage and people are shooting at me, so I'm shooting and killing them.
Speaker: I am not, like, having any emotional, oh, I'm a murderer type of
Speaker: things i'm able to more objectively look at that and be like ah so this is a standard video game shoot amount in this scenario is this morally justifiable or not like i feel like just because it's one of those primary engagements with gaming i'm able to objectively look at the scenarios a little better because it's more par for the course and it's not like shocking me and catching me off guard
Speaker: Yeah, and I think some people see that potentially as a bad thing.
Speaker: Yeah, totally.
Speaker: Studies have shown that video games do not actually dissent stop people to violence in real life.
Speaker: That's a myth.
Speaker: But I think, yeah, you get this idea that you can begin to see, and this exists in other mediums, you begin to see tropes, and you can kind of take a step back and look at it as part of a trope.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: and understand what's going on in the broader story.
Speaker: I also think violence comes up a lot in games and fantasy stories in general.
Speaker: A lot because it is, in a way, the tangible, visual perspective of a real thing.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: So, like, in real life...
Speaker: people are involved in fighting evil.
Speaker: A lot of that comes in not as tangible ways, right?
Speaker: How I choose to talk to people, how I choose to vote, who I choose to purchase from, and spiritual things that are all true...
Speaker: But they're hard to visualize.
Speaker: And I think some games, like the Telltale-style games, Walking Dead, Life is Strange, kind of get into this kind of thing where you're making mostly... So Life is Strange is a... I'll just get into this.
Speaker: It's a Telltale game where you're a girl at an art school.
Speaker: And you make a lot of hard decisions, but those decisions really are like, hey, you know some information.
Speaker: Somebody's asking about that information.
Speaker: If you tell the truth, people might get hurt.
Speaker: If you lie, people might be protected.
Speaker: What do you do?
Speaker: And that's a very realistic situation that people could run into in life, right?
Speaker: Like, we have run into situations where it's, hey, do I...
Speaker: tell this person about this or not tell this person about it, and there's going to be effects either way.
Speaker: And I have to make the decision.
Speaker: That's the kind of decision that comes into... Most video games, I think, when you're talking about a fight with, like, good and evil, kind of unabstract it into an actual fight.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I don't know if you've ever read... Have you ever read C.S.
Speaker: Lewis's Space Trilogy?
Speaker: I haven't.
Speaker: It's on my list once I have time around school books.
Speaker: Sorry about a spoiler you're about to get for it.
Speaker: But at one point, there's a guy who is fighting with an evil power.
Speaker: And it's mostly happening at this point, up to this point of the story, through debates.
Speaker: And he's debating with this evil power.
Speaker: But this evil power is physically present, possessing a person.
Speaker: And at one point, this guy goes, well, what if I just kill him?
Speaker: He's clearly evil.
Speaker: he's clearly trying to promote evil in the world.
Speaker: What if I just physically kill him and no longer worry about the debate?
Speaker: And I think in this moment in the story, you move from the kind of abstract fight and then they have an actual fight.
Speaker: And I think that's what video games are often doing with this idea of fighting in good versus evil.
Speaker: It's easier to visualize and engage in if there's an actual opponent.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, that makes a lot of sense because even one of my favorite two games is the later God of War games where the main character is kind of, again, on a redemptive path from everything he did in the previous games.
Speaker: And he's like, oh, yes, I want to be a better man.
Speaker: And, you know, a lot of what he's regretting is his violent actions from the past.
Speaker: And they're very violent games still.
Speaker: Like, he's still primarily fighting these other gods and things.
Speaker: But...
Speaker: As he does it and as he engages with all of these, it's the vessel and the trope through which the story thematically communicates what's going on with him and what's going on with his relationship with his son and how's all that being processed.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I think a lot of times what you're doing in games, I'll even say often, what they're doing is giving you a...
Speaker: kind of tangible evil to fight rather than making everything abstract.
Speaker: In life, it tends to be more abstract, but it's still worth doing.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: In video games, they go, let's make things simpler.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: We can talk about fighting evil in an abstract way, or we can just put an evil monster in front of you and say, fight it.
Speaker: Because we, yeah, we do fight.
Speaker: I don't think we often think about it in these terms, but we are fighting all the time for something.
Speaker: Even if, you know, even if you don't believe in God or the spiritual, you're fighting, you know, to put food on the table with your job.
Speaker: You know, a lot of times just being at a job is...
Speaker: fighting to stay with a job you don't like.
Speaker: So, but that, again, just the practicalities of gaming systems makes that difficult sometimes to quantify depending on the type of game.
Speaker: Well, I think there's almost a reality that like, man, I don't want to do that in a game.
Speaker: I do that in my everyday life, right?
Speaker: I don't want to have to think about, you know, am I going to be willing to...
Speaker: put in the extra hours because it helps my coworker out to do this thing.
Speaker: That's the stuff I actually do.
Speaker: It doesn't really abstract it and help me think about it objectively if it's just the thing I'm already doing.
Speaker: It's the same reason like superhero movies are superhero movies and not guys at jobs where they find out about some health concerns and are trying to decide whether or not to report it to their boss.
Speaker: And the funny thing is, those seem so different, but I think the same lessons can actually be applied from one to the other, right?
Speaker: Of, hey, what's a good example of... Iron Man is going to take this rocket and shoot it into this wormhole because it's what he thinks the right thing... Because he thinks it's the right thing to do, even if it costs him his life.
Speaker: In the same way, you can think, hey, am I willing to do...
Speaker: the right thing and report these safety concerns, even if it might cost me my job or my, like, those are obviously, they seem very different, but the same principles kind of guide.
Speaker: And you can all, this is almost in a weird situation saying, like I said before, video games do because, especially because you're making decisions, everything shapes you.
Speaker: Everything you are watching, the movies you watch will shape you.
Speaker: The books you read will shape you.
Speaker: Video games, I think, kind of do it stronger because you're making decisions.
Speaker: And if you're consistently choosing in a game to say, hey, I'm going to stand up for someone who's being attacked.
Speaker: I'm going to stand up for someone who can't defend themselves.
Speaker: When you get into a real-life situation and someone's being bullied, I think your mental process will be more likely to go into...
Speaker: well, I stand up for people like that because you've been doing it in games.
Speaker: And again, I think plays, poems, all these things will shape you in that same way.
Speaker: If you read books about people who are loyal to their spouses despite temptations and all these kind of things, I think you will be more likely to do that same thing.
Speaker: And vice versa.
Speaker: If you watch movies about people who are cheating on their spouses all the time, I think you can in some way say, hey...
Speaker: I think you can start with saying that I would never do all these kind of things, but it does become to shape you.
Speaker: And I think especially, yeah, in video games, again, because you're deciding, when you see these things in real life, it makes it easier to decide in a way you've already decided.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: This has been awesome.
Speaker: We're nearing the time where I have to cut us off.
Speaker: So I'm going to ask a question that's kind of...
Speaker: A little bit of both of our last questions.
Speaker: I guess for people who, well, just anybody who's curious about video games as art and as something redemptive,
Speaker: What are games you would either recommend that they play or maybe look them up and watch a playthrough on YouTube or something like that where either it's impacted you or you just are aware of it and know the value of it artistically and spiritually?
Speaker: I'm going to say play.
Speaker: You said play or look them up.
Speaker: I'm going to say try to play things because it goes into this discussion of
Speaker: Watching someone stream a video game is in a way more akin to a movie or a TV show because you're no longer the one making decisions.
Speaker: You're seeing what they do.
Speaker: And you can say, that's right, that's wrong, all that stuff, but you're not making the choice.
Speaker: So I would encourage people to play.
Speaker: Things I think of that are...
Speaker: I think of the Legend of Zelda series immediately.
Speaker: And in some ways, they're more, they're not always as story driven.
Speaker: And you sometimes have to understand the role that courage and other things are playing in them.
Speaker: But I think it's very much there.
Speaker: I would love to say Red Dead Redemption.
Speaker: If people haven't played games, I might not have them play it right away just because you are playing such a
Speaker: genuinely bad person at the start of the game and until I think you understand kind of the narrative arc of how things are going I think a person could struggle with that at the start rightly so I'm trying to think of I've played a lot of games here I don't know if this will make me disappear or not I'm just sitting like pull up my playlist Papers Please is a good one
Speaker: Paper Splits is a great one, right?
Speaker: Because it seems like a game that's so mundane, but it's so fun.
Speaker: And you genuinely have the option to do so many things that kind of help you think about what you do in kind of morally gray situations.
Speaker: Like, this is a very minor one that comes up, I think, early on in the game.
Speaker: You have two girls who come through
Speaker: And they say, hey.
Speaker: Real quick, just for the audience to know, Papers, Please is a game where you're playing as a border patrol guard.
Speaker: So everybody who's entering into this country, you have to vet them based on the country's constantly changing rules.
Speaker: And they all have, there's frequent moral dilemmas.
Speaker: Yeah, you check passports and you check border documents and people have to declare whether or not they have goods, what they're doing in the country.
Speaker: So there's one early on where these two girls come in.
Speaker: They say, hey, there's going to be a guy right behind us.
Speaker: Don't let him into the country.
Speaker: And you – he comes in.
Speaker: And he has perfectly every time this one's hard scripted.
Speaker: He has perfectly legitimate documents, right?
Speaker: He is always right up to code, whatever the code is at that point of the game.
Speaker: You should let him into the country.
Speaker: If you don't let him into the country.
Speaker: It's going to be dinged on you.
Speaker: You're going to get your pay docs and you're going to get essentially a strike against your record.
Speaker: Which, in this game, you play essentially a paycheck-to-paycheck character who's supporting a family.
Speaker: And you have to decide, hey, is it worth doing this for these random girls?
Speaker: And you have to make the decision.
Speaker: Spoiler, if you do let this... If you don't let the guy through, you'll get a strike, you'll get a paycheck, deduction, and that'll be the end of it.
Speaker: If you do let this guy into the country... I can't remember if you find out these girls get killed or smuggled into a prostitution ring or something like that, but it's very clear that this is directly connected to what you did.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: And then there are things in that game that are even more morally gray, like you work for...
Speaker: What becomes over time clearer?
Speaker: A corrupt government.
Speaker: And you have opportunities to do things against that government.
Speaker: And you kind of have to make the decision of, is that right?
Speaker: Is it better to flee the country and not get involved in this pseudo-revolution?
Speaker: Or what do you do?
Speaker: So that's another game.
Speaker: And then I will say, I'm going to totally change this.
Speaker: I think that's a game that has a lot of redemptive and hard, kind of helps you think about great decisions and is useful in that way.
Speaker: I think Gabe's can be just aesthetically beautiful, right?
Speaker: And I think, in a way, most things that are genuinely beautiful are in some way God-honored.
Speaker: Because God is ultimately the source of beauty and the source of what we understand beauty to be.
Speaker: So when you're just like, what's a good game for this?
Speaker: When you're just rolling around, this is going to sound weird because this game is not realistic at all.
Speaker: When you're rolling around Minecraft, there's a sense when we're like, man, this is awesome.
Speaker: And this is meant to emulate creation.
Speaker: Right?
Speaker: And there are plenty of other games.
Speaker: I might even go with Microsoft Flight Simulator.
Speaker: It isn't even really a game.
Speaker: It's a flight simulator.
Speaker: But you can either see natural wonders and all these kind of things.
Speaker: Or games with really good music.
Speaker: Undertale and maybe the Monster Hunter games have these kind of visually stunning...
Speaker: things that I think genuinely in the same way nature helps you reflect upon God, even though these things aren't nature, these things are meant to kind of capture things from beauty and from nature and kind of show a display of creativity, which is something that God has given to us.
Speaker: And we can look at these and say, man, this is
Speaker: This is something in some way good and helpful and...
Speaker: kind of like a living painting where a lot of times sure yeah reflecting on a painting especially for me a landscape painting it's like oh you know if i have a beautiful landscape painting of the lake i'm like oh i love the lake and this is kind of bringing me back there and making me reflect on god and so i think a lot of times you know i have that with several games red dead 2 i know we've both talked about before there's one called ghost of tsushima where it is beautiful um
Speaker: And just riding a horse through those landscapes or just having your character sit and just look at a beautiful sunset and just being like, wow, creation.
Speaker: I'm trying to think.
Speaker: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker: And I'm trying to think real quick of other things that might fit in this.
Speaker: recommendations, just because you asked.
Speaker: I have on here that are good for people just thinking about it.
Speaker: Subnautica is a game that at first doesn't... It seems like a sandbox game at first where you're just kind of doing nothing.
Speaker: But it's a game where you crash land on an ocean planet and you kind of have to survive.
Speaker: And there's a lot of beauty and things to it.
Speaker: But things develop that you understand...
Speaker: meaningful one i didn't think i'd recommend but now that i see it it gets into some of this is like the relatively new guardians of the galaxy game oh that one is really good and that also has a lot of themes of courage and making right decisions and that one i will say just for anyone genuinely wants to play these games to recommend that one does heavily feature
Speaker: direct religious discussion.
Speaker: Because the main bad guy is the leader of a cult.
Speaker: And that could be potentially triggering for some people.
Speaker: Because it's not like, hey, this is an allusion to religion.
Speaker: It's very directly religious, but in a very clearly wrong cult sense.
Speaker: You don't get the idea that you're fighting against
Speaker: Jesus.
Speaker: Jesus, yeah.
Speaker: You get the idea of fighting against someone who is against Jesus.
Speaker: I'm trying to think of any other games that stand out.
Speaker: Obviously, I've played a lot of games.
Speaker: I would recommend many of them.
Speaker: But for this specific kind of idea of kind of highlighting how redemption is part of things, actually, if you're going to play a game, it's going to sound weird, a Legend of Zelda game,
Speaker: And this will be hard to get your hands on, I'm not going to lie.
Speaker: It's a game for the 3DS called Legend of Zelda A Link Between Worlds.
Speaker: I think that might be the Legend of Zelda game that has some of the most clearly redemptive themes.
Speaker: Otherwise, ones that will be easier to find either on... Because they reboot it all the time.
Speaker: It's like Ocarina of Time.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: I'm tempted to say Kingdom Hearts.
Speaker: You'd have to get a PlayStation.
Speaker: Like three to play the first two.
Speaker: And the storyline is insanely convoluted.
Speaker: But it does have this very clear sense of good versus evil, doing what's right.
Speaker: These kinds of ideas.
Speaker: Also, you get to hang around with Donald and Goofy.
Speaker: Who doesn't want to see Mickey be the king of a fantasy world and wear a monk robe?
Speaker: Well, not a monk robe.
Speaker: Yeah, wear like a goth monk robe.
Speaker: That game is crazy because it's very much like anime boys and girls fighting.
Speaker: And then there's just Goofy, like Disney's Goofy.
Speaker: And the game's like, and we are going to give them like a badass moment.
Speaker: Yeah, like, it's a very, like, Donald is, like, a very hardcore sorcerer in this game.
Speaker: Not, like, in any evil sense, but, like, he uses magic as his main form of fighting people.
Speaker: And he fights people.
Speaker: And he fights people a lot.
Speaker: Yeah, that's great.
Speaker: Which, it's just, if you like Disney, uh... There you go.
Speaker: And a lot of people like Disney.
Speaker: You get to go through all the Disney worlds, kind of play through the stories, but it all connects into like a broader narrative.
Speaker: And it's very much about fighting against evil and people trying to bring evil into the world and you stopping it.
Speaker: I'm trying to think of any other games that are kind of like standouts in my mind.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: This one might sound a little weird because the main gameplay really isn't anything.
Speaker: And you can, if you want, you can watch a movie or read the comics, but Injustice is kind of very... If you like superheroes, that's definitely very interesting.
Speaker: If you like superheroes, yeah.
Speaker: Injustice is a DC fighting game.
Speaker: And it's about... This is not a spoiler.
Speaker: This happens right at the start.
Speaker: Essentially, there's an alternate universe where Superman turns evil.
Speaker: And you kind of have to go and stop him.
Speaker: And it's about what...
Speaker: fighting against evil, but kind of what harm can happen when people with power choose to use it for evil rather than good and kind of the damage that can do.
Speaker: And interestingly, if you've read the...
Speaker: Comics, the movie, and the game all have the same premise, but they actually have somewhat different plots.
Speaker: So even if you've seen the movie or read the comics, it might be worth giving a crack at the game.
Speaker: It's a fighting game, which tends to be hard, but I didn't think... I didn't find Injustice to be...
Speaker: I think it's on the easier side.
Speaker: Yeah, especially in the story mode, I was able to get through the whole story as a guy who's not a big fighting game guy.
Speaker: I was able to do it without considerable struggle.
Speaker: I mean, I lost a lot of fights, but I also managed to get through the storyline and not like... It took me like 10 hours, I don't know.
Speaker: Which, if anyone's hearing and doesn't play games a lot,
Speaker: 10 hours, a long time for a movie, maybe an average time for a book.
Speaker: That's a pretty short video game.
Speaker: 10 hours is a relatively short video game.
Speaker: Like 20 to 30 hours is even still considered short nowadays.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So like we were talking about Breath of the Wild, which we've talked about, takes like 40 hours.
Speaker: I think the average playthrough of Red Dead Redemption 2 is like 100 hours.
Speaker: So, all right.
Speaker: I think it's like 60 to 80.
Speaker: But yes, thank you for chatting about this.
Speaker: This has been super fun.
Speaker: Yeah, we'll have you on.
Speaker: We'll talk about it more later.
Speaker: That's great.
Speaker: Perfect.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Have a good rest of your trip.
Speaker: You too.
Speaker: Thanks.
Speaker: See you.
Speaker: Bye.
Speaker: Bye.
