Ep 57: Deeproot to the Future!

Transcript

Speaker: Thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball podcast.

Speaker: We are on episode 57.

Speaker: I am Josh Roop and with me, my co-host as always, Scott Larson.

Speaker: And Scott, we have quite the treat today.

Speaker: We've got a couple of news items we want to discuss and just kind of shoot the breeze as we do.

Speaker: But before we do, let's talk about those friends of the podcast.

Speaker: Okay, first and foremost, Flippin' Out Pinball.

Speaker: If you are looking to get in the pinball game and to up your collection, please check out Zach and Nicole Minney at Flippin' Out Pinball.

Speaker: They will be able to cater to all your pinball needs.

Speaker: They even get trade-ins too, so if you don't want that hot new title and you want something that's, if you want to get that Batman 66 that they're no longer making, go ahead and contact them.

Speaker: Next, This Week in Pinball.

Speaker: If you want to get a quick synopsis of all the news in pinball,

Speaker: Check out This Week in Pinball.

Speaker: The Twippies just came out, so we are going to talk about those today.

Speaker: So it's always good to check out the news there.

Speaker: Also, another resource, Pinball Supernova.

Speaker: Just looking on there today.

Speaker: And there's a lot of different things that you can do on there.

Speaker: There's shop, contact, tips, videos, collection.

Speaker: There's also other stuff.

Speaker: So check them out.

Speaker: Another resource that is good for pinball.

Speaker: Next, Flyland Designs.

Speaker: We talked about it before.

Speaker: If you want to update your...

Speaker: Your Bally Williams game from the 90s.

Speaker: He has some alternative frames in there.

Speaker: Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, released Whitewater.

Speaker: He also has a couple of fun ones that are an amalgam of all sorts of Bally Williams greatest hits.

Speaker: And so if you want to order that, I just ordered a Art Blades to put in my Medieval Madness.

Speaker: So it's just fun to have a different look for an old game.

Speaker: Next, if you have that pinball trans light that's been laying around that you want to get up and make it look awesome in your room, check out Lit Frames.

Speaker: Litframes.com.

Speaker: Our friend Brad Hunter over there has a great and economical way of illuminating that trans light.

Speaker: And it's easy to swap them in and out.

Speaker: So if you just want to get one frame and swap them in, or if you want to make a collage on the wall, go ahead and check him out.

Speaker: Tell him we send you.

Speaker: Also, pin shades if you want that polarized lens that works really well on location pinball.

Speaker: It actually works great to cut out the glare.

Speaker: If you're not playing at an elite location with Invisiglass and everything, then it's a good way to step up your competition.

Speaker: Next, if you are looking for a blog, my buddy's website, ThePinballLoft at ThePinballLoft.com, just go ahead and check that out.

Speaker: He's always, the latest thing that he did, which is pretty awesome, he has a collector's edition of Guns N' Roses.

Speaker: And he decided that his ears were not exploded yet from all of that sound.

Speaker: So he even updated the sound bar on his guns and roses, pretty short rocks, the paint off the walls when he plays that next, if you are looking for a way to up your pinball game, check out Ray day pinball.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: Great resource.

Speaker: Ray's a great guy.

Speaker: Good friend.

Speaker: And also happens to be the world's number one player.

Speaker: So if you want to hop on and figure out how he does it, he really does make it a lot easier than it looks.

Speaker: Or than it is for me anyway.

Speaker: So it's a good way of figuring out how to blow up your game.

Speaker: And Josh, I hear there's another streamer that jumped on recently.

Speaker: You want to talk about that?

Speaker: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker: So...

Speaker: If you haven't heard, Carl D'Angelo has done pin clash again.

Speaker: Uh, this is the second round.

Speaker: The first one was Jurassic park and right now they're doing qualifiers.

Speaker: So if you want to attempt this, it is the least amount of flips finishing the black order, uh,

Speaker: multi-ball or the black order battle royale that's what it is um i decided hey i have two old phones well i have my phone i have an old phone uh i'll figure out this jazz on my laptop and i did and now i'm streaming so if you want to check us out we're at loser kid pinball on twitch.tv so just just look up loser kid pinball and you'll find us there you'll find me

Speaker: Yeah, actually, ironically, how I started following Josh doing it, and I may get into it, who knows, I was actually watching Raymond.

Speaker: Raymond just hopped on and said, Raymond's coming on.

Speaker: So I was watching Rayday, and he was actually playing this pretty awesome retro game that he started building online when he was like 14.

Speaker: And it's Banjo-Kazooie, which I'm totally old enough that I have no recollection of this video game.

Speaker: But it's pretty awesome.

Speaker: And he actually made a pretty deep rule set for it.

Speaker: So I was watching that.

Speaker: I happened to be at work doing nothing.

Speaker: And then he sent it over.

Speaker: He's like, and next, hang on and we'll send it over to Loser Kid Bed Mall.

Speaker: I was like, oh, I guess I need to ask Josh about that.

Speaker: It was pretty cool, too.

Speaker: So it was funny because like the first the first stream that I did was just it's well, you can see it.

Speaker: I mean, there's no background.

Speaker: There's no it's just seriously the play field, my laptop camera and then the pitch, the camera directly on the display.

Speaker: And I was just like, I want to see if I can even attempt this.

Speaker: And so when that worked out, I was like, well, I'll put a little elbow grease into this.

Speaker: So I spent the next night and Streamlabs OBS is fantastic.

Speaker: It's very easy.

Speaker: So I sat down and, and just kind of threw, threw together a, a template for loser kid.

Speaker: And I was like, boom, that's good.

Speaker: And I,

Speaker: I've done that a couple times.

Speaker: I think I've figured out the delay in the microphone because if you have watched the first couple episodes, I talk and then you can see me talking on the screen and then you don't hear me for like two, three seconds.

Speaker: But yeah, it's pretty fun.

Speaker: I've always wanted to stream.

Speaker: I've thought that'd be really fun to do.

Speaker: And with the advances in technology and technology,

Speaker: If you don't have an extra Android phone, I know people do Apple, so obviously you're not going to have an Android phone laying around.

Speaker: But I think smartphones have been around long enough that we have a couple of them in our dresser or wherever you hide your extra dead phones.

Speaker: Pretty sure I have a Nokia 95 somewhere.

Speaker: Exactly.

Speaker: And so I was just like, well, if I can use these phones, and I mean, they make it really easy.

Speaker: You just download the app and you can network everything together.

Speaker: And boom, it was amazing.

Speaker: It was something I could try without sinking a lot of the money into because I already had the equipment.

Speaker: So I was like, let's just do this.

Speaker: Let's see what happens.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: So let's talk about that.

Speaker: Let's talk about pin clash.

Speaker: I mean, we talked about it before, but he's throwing something else out there.

Speaker: So tell us about the competition and how people can get involved.

Speaker: So if you want to get involved, all you have to do is you have to record what you're doing.

Speaker: You don't have to stream it.

Speaker: But you do have to record it and upload it somehow, whether it be to YouTube.

Speaker: And it's just the Black Order Battle Royale.

Speaker: So you hold in the flippers and you select challenge and boom, you're there.

Speaker: The secret or the trick, if you've been watching these, is you shoot that mystery scoop or the mystery target, depending on which version you're playing on.

Speaker: And you got to shoot it twice.

Speaker: And the first one will give you Ant-Man and the second will give you Wasp and Wasp will give you a two ball multi ball and doubles the values of all the shots.

Speaker: So it's really nice because if you're used to making that black widow pot belly Hawkeye shot, you can knock this out pretty quick.

Speaker: um if you're not used to that then i don't know what to tell you but it essentially takes if you don't have that going you have to hit every single shot before it advances you to the next black order member and so it's it's really fun i figured to get qualified it's free so like it doesn't cost you a dime if you just want to see hey can i do this or not and i suggest if if you have the stuff to do it just do it you know and how often is that for carl to put this on right

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And that's really, I think I know with the Jurassic park one, it was his own money.

Speaker: He paid like a thousand dollars, his own money for the reward.

Speaker: And so, um, I think it's up to $1,700 this time.

Speaker: Don't quote me on that, but I think it's awesome that Carl puts these on, especially in COVID and all that stuff.

Speaker: And he's picking games that have, uh, like he could probably do those with turtles if you want to, because that's got the, uh,

Speaker: I don't know what to call it.

Speaker: The time racing challenge.

Speaker: But he's picking games that will have objectives that can be obtained later on.

Speaker: And so you're qualifying for the rest of this month.

Speaker: I know people are complaining that Avengers is being streamed away too much.

Speaker: Well, guess what?

Speaker: It's going to happen until the end of the month.

Speaker: And then in June, the top 24 will compete for the money and whatnot.

Speaker: And they're just calling it.

Speaker: It's not even competing.

Speaker: People are saying they're donating to the Escher-Lefkoff fund, which makes sense.

Speaker: So it really it's down between Escher and Ray Day at this point.

Speaker: Actually, no, sorry.

Speaker: ZMAC.

Speaker: ZMAC did it in 17 flips just two days ago, which is just insane.

Speaker: But it's a really cool run.

Speaker: If you haven't checked that one out, go check it out.

Speaker: Let's talk a little bit past the streaming though.

Speaker: I want to talk about if you guys haven't been checking out or following us, uh, we, it's not just loser kid.

Speaker: We've been recording with, we recorded with final round in January.

Speaker: If you didn't check it out, it's episode 25 winter kids, really, really fun, uh, being on with Marty and Jeff.

Speaker: We appreciate them having us on and talking about the twippies then and whatnot.

Speaker: And then in February, we joined up with slam tilt podcast on episode one 60, uh,

Speaker: which was a glutton of problems, which was a hoot.

Speaker: I mean, Slam Till is like the original podcasters.

Speaker: They're up there.

Speaker: They've been quite some time and they've, they've spurred all these other podcasts.

Speaker: It was really cool to be on one of the original ones.

Speaker: And then just recently we're on pinball players podcast with Jeff Parsons and Joe Lemire.

Speaker: If you haven't checked that one out, that is episode 67.

Speaker: I can't remember the title of it, but it was a really fun episode.

Speaker: It was really great to talk to these guys.

Speaker: We talked to them behind the scenes, but we were always like, hey, we got to record an episode.

Speaker: What did you think of it, Scott?

Speaker: Did you have fun doing Final Round, Slam Till, and Pinball Players?

Speaker: You know, the best part about it is that these guys genuinely are approachable.

Speaker: We feel like we're...

Speaker: we're starting to get into the middle age of podcast.

Speaker: So we're no longer the, we're no longer the new kids out there, but at the same time, you have to realize that in any industry, there's going to be some sort of competition, right?

Speaker: Like us against them, but really behind the scenes on, on the podcasters that we've reached out to, they've been more than welcoming to us.

Speaker: And it feels that the, the,

Speaker: The friendship is genuine.

Speaker: It doesn't feel forced.

Speaker: The reason why these people are recording is because one, they have a passion for pinball and two, they have someone they can talk to about pinball.

Speaker: I mean, let's be honest.

Speaker: This is, this is a niche kind of weird hobby.

Speaker: It kind of is.

Speaker: It's a little bit that way in that it's not like it was when I was a kid where there were arcades everywhere.

Speaker: It's hard to find arcades unless you're going to a bar.

Speaker: So it's just different.

Speaker: And it's fun to be able to interact with people who have the same sort of passion.

Speaker: And it just for them to be super supportive of everything we do, because we are supportive of everything they do.

Speaker: We listen to we're just we're fans, too.

Speaker: We're listening to other podcasts and it's fun to see how they do things and then just bring our own thing.

Speaker: Yep.

Speaker: Well, it was really fun, too.

Speaker: Like it's like you said, it's different with every other podcast, like what Jeff and Marty do with final rounds.

Speaker: Definitely different from what slam tilt does or even pinball players.

Speaker: But it was really funny because there's a part that that Jeff had cut out.

Speaker: He cut out what?

Speaker: 20, 20 minute conversation between Joe.

Speaker: Oh, yeah.

Speaker: Geez.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You guys just went off.

Speaker: It was like, oh, this is never going to get in there.

Speaker: Well, it was really funny because we talked about play fields.

Speaker: Everyone talks about play fields, right?

Speaker: And then at the end of it, it kind of went silent.

Speaker: And Jeff's like, and guys, that's not going to make it.

Speaker: That's not going to make it because that's not – you guys took a left turn and then you U-turned it and then you went on a corkscrew.

Speaker: But it was awesome.

Speaker: So it was really fun to be on those.

Speaker: And I don't know.

Speaker: It's fun.

Speaker: It's fun going on other podcasts.

Speaker: It's really – it just reinforces –

Speaker: that pinball really is a community sport.

Speaker: It's a community effect.

Speaker: I, I went out to, uh, to Jeff Rivera from the pinball podcast.

Speaker: He had a birthday party on Friday night.

Speaker: And this is the first time ladies and gentlemen, that I have been out and playing on location in a year, just because I, you know,

Speaker: I feel a little obligated and rightfully so that, you know, my job, I'm exposed to sick people all the time.

Speaker: And I felt that it was kind of my obligation to be a leader in saying we need to do things appropriately.

Speaker: Now, that's not saying that I wouldn't go down.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: This, the, we don't have as much location pinball here in Utah and I've been so crazy busy over the last year.

Speaker: So I think there are ways of doing it safely.

Speaker: So I, I'm not taking the high road and saying that anybody who plays location pinball is, is being reckless.

Speaker: What I am saying is there are intelligent ways of doing it, like going and wearing masks and doing all that.

Speaker: It just hasn't really fit into my schedule.

Speaker: And we've been so busy at work and really at home trying to maximize my time with my kids.

Speaker: It just hadn't bubbled up.

Speaker: So it was great to get out and play on location, though, because the locations do need it.

Speaker: And in this location, it's about an hour away from my house.

Speaker: So to do it is a commitment for me to hop in the car and drive down because it's at a bar.

Speaker: So I'm not bringing the kids.

Speaker: So that's the reason why I haven't been doing a lot here.

Speaker: But it was a lot of fun.

Speaker: It was just different.

Speaker: We had a quick tournament.

Speaker: I didn't take last in every group, so that was good.

Speaker: Just took last in two out of three.

Speaker: So it was still fun, and that's what I did over the weekend.

Speaker: Nice.

Speaker: And I wish I could have went to I texted Jeff and said, hey, buddy, I'm sorry, I'll miss it.

Speaker: I'm I'm three hours away.

Speaker: He said we'll catch up.

Speaker: But it's funny because, you know, people gave us crap about having Keith always on.

Speaker: But I think Jeff is tied.

Speaker: We've had Jeff on three times.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And I'm like, we should have him on again because it's been a while.

Speaker: It's been since what, February of last year?

Speaker: Yeah, it has been.

Speaker: Legitimately, Jeff's been going through some that he has been very open with some personal challenges and just trying to solidify things.

Speaker: So as everything, pinball takes a backseat when you have other things that bubble to the top.

Speaker: Amen to that.

Speaker: And life takes precedence over pinball, unless you're working for Stern or something.

Speaker: But, you know, that is that's just something that to be aware of.

Speaker: And as we've said before, very pro getting help if you need it.

Speaker: Talking about, you know, talk about your feelings, talk about things that you're frustrated with, talk about things that are going on.

Speaker: And if that involves getting a counselor, if that involves addressing your mental health, you know, your your brain is it's an organ in your body, just like your liver, just like your heart, just like your kidneys.

Speaker: And there are so many.

Speaker: We are grateful that the celestial architects set it up.

Speaker: So our bodies work really well most of the time, but sometimes they don't.

Speaker: And there's a reason why my job is medicine and my job is to help the body when something goes sideways.

Speaker: So again, just want to make sure everybody feels the support they need.

Speaker: And it was just good to see him.

Speaker: And I think things are stabilizing a little more.

Speaker: So we'd love to have him back on.

Speaker: It was good to see him.

Speaker: My kids are actually heading down south at spring break.

Speaker: There's actually right outside Vegas.

Speaker: Utah has St.

Speaker: George.

Speaker: And that's where my in-laws live.

Speaker: And so they're going to go down for a few days.

Speaker: I didn't get the time off because the hospital is still open.

Speaker: So we, um, so I'll be up here and I'm actually planning on doing a pinball night with Jeff.

Speaker: So cool.

Speaker: That is awesome.

Speaker: Well, you'll have to, yeah, I wish I could be there, man.

Speaker: It's yeah.

Speaker: Well, yeah, I know it's a, and I'm actually working Saturday.

Speaker: Otherwise I'd probably try to sneak away for a weekend, but yeah.

Speaker: I don't blame you.

Speaker: Yeah, we're getting to that point where it's like, we've been so pent up for so long.

Speaker: It's time to start getting out.

Speaker: And my second shot's Thursday, so I'm excited about that.

Speaker: I just...

Speaker: Life is feeling like it's starting to get back to normal.

Speaker: I don't know where you guys live and if it's getting back to normal there.

Speaker: I know like Teola set up in Canada, they're a little bit slower in rolling out the vaccine.

Speaker: So I hope for those that want it, I hope you get it.

Speaker: I'm excited.

Speaker: I'm excited that life is getting back to normal.

Speaker: And I'll make a plug.

Speaker: Vaccines work.

Speaker: I mean, seriously, I've seen that work.

Speaker: So be so devastating to many of my friends.

Speaker: And one of my friends at work ended up getting a double lung transplant because COVID hit her that hard and she was a healthy nurse.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: So, you know, it just, I don't want to make this political.

Speaker: I'm just going to say from a medical standpoint, vaccines work, please go get it.

Speaker: So, yep.

Speaker: Well, let's move on.

Speaker: We got our three topics we want to talk about today.

Speaker: I know you're chomping at the bit to at least get to one of them.

Speaker: Yeah, I know.

Speaker: Great.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: But I think we should save that juicy tidbit till the end because, you know, people come for the rant.

Speaker: They do.

Speaker: Oh, man.

Speaker: Let's talk about Twippies first.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: So, Twippies.

Speaker: So, let's do a quick rundown.

Speaker: Do you want me to just run them off real quick, Josh?

Speaker: And then we'll come back and say any surprises, anything.

Speaker: How did you feel?

Speaker: Yeah, let's just do a quick run of the list.

Speaker: So let's start with best music and sound effects.

Speaker: So that was, well, you know, we'll just talk about in category.

Speaker: So best music and sound effects.

Speaker: I have everything in front of me, Josh, and I'm sure you're familiar with it, but you may not know the percentages because I have the percentages pulled up.

Speaker: What was your gut feeling on what should have won and what and I'll tell you what did win?

Speaker: Okay, so are we going with best music first?

Speaker: Best music and sound effects, so it's a combined category.

Speaker: This one's hard because, I mean, obviously Guns N' Roses has fantastic music, but it's not technically music made for pinball.

Speaker: But you could argue Slash made specific riffs for the game.

Speaker: So I don't know.

Speaker: I think GNR did walk away with this one, and I'm fine with it just because Slash had put more music into it, additional riffs.

Speaker: than just the songs and if you've played gnr it's not specific like you don't actually start in a song you have to work into getting a song so yeah that's my pick is gnr yeah and that's it was the overwhelming favorite uh 42 of the vote yep so i mean it's kind of hard when you have an iconic band where a band member

Speaker: who makes the music is also involved in the design process.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It's, it's hard to compete on it because it's really a different level, right?

Speaker: Yep.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So next thing is favorite homebrew pinball machine.

Speaker: Now this is challenging just because unless you're familiar with all this stuff, you're not going to know like what is out there because you see them on pin side, but you don't really understand.

Speaker: It's not like you're going to see a high volume of these things.

Speaker: I'm just going to scramble these a little bit.

Speaker: There's a Mad Max rethemed pinball machine.

Speaker: There's a Legend of Zelda linked to the past.

Speaker: There's an Aladdin one.

Speaker: There's a crazy mansion by the pinball amigos.

Speaker: There's Steamboat Willie.

Speaker: There's Sonic the Hedgehog, and there's Dragon Ball Z.

Speaker: Have you followed any of these things, Josh?

Speaker: Because this is a tighter category than I would have anticipated.

Speaker: I've followed a few of these.

Speaker: I was actually kind of shocked to see some of these on the list because I didn't know they existed.

Speaker: But that's the thing, though.

Speaker: I don't follow the homebrew very closely.

Speaker: I follow Sonic Spinball because I think that is a fantastic game.

Speaker: And Ryan McQuaid has done a lot to it.

Speaker: I was super impressed with The Crazy Mansion.

Speaker: Is that what it's called?

Speaker: Yeah, The Crazy Mansion by the Pinball Amigos.

Speaker: Man, that one is insane.

Speaker: Don't get me wrong.

Speaker: I like Spinball, but holy crap.

Speaker: Those guys have done something special with that.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: So those are the top two.

Speaker: And it's actually pretty close.

Speaker: What did you think won?

Speaker: Sonic.

Speaker: I think it had more exposure than any of these other games.

Speaker: It did.

Speaker: And really, if there's one theme, you're right, that's going to translate so well to pinball.

Speaker: Anybody who grew up like I grew up playing the Sega Genesis.

Speaker: I had a Nintendo Entertainment System.

Speaker: And actually, I never bought the Super Nintendo.

Speaker: But I did buy...

Speaker: the, uh, I did buy the, um, Sega Genesis, which had Sonic the Hedgehog.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So it was 22% of the vote, but there was a lot less votes in this compared to the other categories.

Speaker: And I think it's just because people didn't, uh, they didn't know, uh, as much.

Speaker: And I, I don't even know if I had an educated guess on these things.

Speaker: So, um, okay.

Speaker: Next one, best theme.

Speaker: So this is actually going to be different.

Speaker: Um, so what do you, uh,

Speaker: I'll just rattle them all off.

Speaker: Avengers, TMNT, Stranger Things, Hot Wheels, Guns N' Roses, Heavy Metal, Rick and Morty, Heist, and Ranger in the Ruins.

Speaker: So this is a weird category to me because what constitutes the best theme?

Speaker: Like what sells the most?

Speaker: What's the most integrated into our society?

Speaker: It's just, it's a weird, especially since there's a best theme integration category as well.

Speaker: Isn't there?

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Theme integration.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And so it's weird to me that there's like a best theme because it's, it's all very subjective.

Speaker: I guess a lot of these are subjective.

Speaker: Well, okay.

Speaker: I'll put it this way though.

Speaker: Best theme.

Speaker: I would argue in seasons past that star Wars was on everybody's must have theme list.

Speaker: Yeah, that's true.

Speaker: Now I will say, if you talk about theme integration, some people love the game, some people didn't.

Speaker: So it was a, it was a little different when it came to what the theme people wanted versus how it was integrated.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And you could argue the same thing about, um,

Speaker: when you talk about Pirates of the Caribbean, it was, it was an immersive theme integration, but one of the knocks on it, and we're talking about JJP one, one of the knocks on it is that, well, it's doesn't have any of the movie assets.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It just had like, yes, it's a pirate.

Speaker: It's, it's pirate and it's linked to Pirates of the Caribbean, but it doesn't have the same amount of volume.

Speaker: So anyway, I would say that,

Speaker: That's the argument on that.

Speaker: So of those, what would you say is the best theme?

Speaker: And then we'll talk about who won.

Speaker: Honestly, the best theme is either Guns N' Roses or Avengers Infinity Quest.

Speaker: Just because they're so predominant in our culture right now.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Is my opinion.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: And I would have personally – I think I ended up going with Turtles because Turtles is the perfect theme for me.

Speaker: Yeah, and that's your dream theme.

Speaker: Yeah, that's why I'm like – the problem is this best theme is very subjective.

Speaker: It becomes – It's personal.

Speaker: Absolutely.

Speaker: Yeah, it's very personal.

Speaker: It's not – and I think that's the problem I have with the Twippies is –

Speaker: With the pinball industry awards, everything was almost overthought.

Speaker: You know what I'm saying?

Speaker: Does this deserve that?

Speaker: It has to be – we all kind of gave – even though there wasn't a criteria, we all gave it criteria to follow.

Speaker: With Twippies, it kind of is like – it is popular vote.

Speaker: Yeah, but I actually think that they're really different award categories.

Speaker: Really?

Speaker: And, and the, uh, the pinball industry awards, I think is great.

Speaker: And okay.

Speaker: Full disclosure.

Speaker: We won the, the Twippy for, uh, um, or sorry.

Speaker: I'll let you edit that.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Uh,

Speaker: we won the award for excellence in podcasting and we are extremely grateful for that.

Speaker: However, it's a different, it's a different selection criteria.

Speaker: It's a different people voting.

Speaker: And I totally get that, that Twippy's, this is, this is the ultimate pinball fan participation.

Speaker: So Jeff's done a great job of letting, letting the people decide what's going to be.

Speaker: So yeah, I, you know what?

Speaker: Best theme.

Speaker: I, I,

Speaker: I'm in the dad rock category.

Speaker: And so I would say that the one that people really wanted was guns and roses.

Speaker: I'm going to vote with my heart though, and say that Avengers was immediate buy for me.

Speaker: Like when I found out it was Avengers, I just told Zach, I, I called him and I had heard the rumor the night before I actually was pretty blindsided, but they said, well, the rumor is this.

Speaker: And I said, okay, if it's a Keith L. One game, put me down, put me down for the LA.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Um, but I totally get that there are people who love Rick and Morty and that's what won.

Speaker: It was, it was slim between that and guns and roses.

Speaker: So I think it was the hipsters versus the dad rock guys.

Speaker: Well, and I think it's awesome that spooky took home this award.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I mean, it really is a great theme.

Speaker: Like Rick and Morty is obviously doing something right because of how much influence they have in pop culture right now.

Speaker: So they're actually on commercials for sodas or whatever it is.

Speaker: So that surprised me more than anything.

Speaker: So, yeah.

Speaker: Okay, favorite pinball location.

Speaker: I'm just going to call this out because all these locations are good.

Speaker: Logan's Arcade won in Chicago because why not, right?

Speaker: It's between Logan's and Sunshine.

Speaker: Those are the ones that I hear so much about.

Speaker: But every single one of these I'm going to call out because I want to give

Speaker: airtime to Logan's arcade, Chicago, Illinois, old school pinball experience, Sao Paulo, Brazil pinball palace in Brunswick, Georgia, Jack bar, Brooklyn, New York, sunshine laundromat, Brooklyn, New York, the pinball lounge, Oviedo, Florida district 82, uh, day pierre, Wisconsin moms, organic market, college park, Maryland.

Speaker: Seriously.

Speaker: There's gotta be some, some four 20 going on there.

Speaker: Uh,

Speaker: Fort Wayne Pinball Wizards World Arcade in Fort Wayne, Indiana, and my parents' basement on Avondale Estates, Georgia.

Speaker: Yeah, a lot of East Coast locations.

Speaker: Yeah, all of them.

Speaker: Yeah, really, Illinois or Indiana are probably where the line of demarcation goes.

Speaker: But hey, pinball is an Eastern sport, so we're an outlier in the West.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I'm kind of shocked that pinball hall of fame didn't make that at all.

Speaker: That's actually a good point.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: You know, I never thought about that.

Speaker: Because you think about it.

Speaker: Like, if you talk pinball and that new massive location.

Speaker: It looks great.

Speaker: Yeah, it looks great.

Speaker: But, I mean, that has got to be the ultimate location, right?

Speaker: Like, it's got every single pinball.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: The ultimate location is out of Banff, California.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: But, you know, they can't turn the lights on there all the time.

Speaker: So, I would say that they're going with places that they are familiar with and they're playing.

Speaker: Yep.

Speaker: So I'm actually a little surprised that more people from the Portland and the Seattle area didn't get their locations in.

Speaker: But I think it's because we don't hear about them as much.

Speaker: There's still a lot of people and a lot of podcasters.

Speaker: We're actually kind of an outlier in the West.

Speaker: Most of the podcasters are back East podcasters.

Speaker: And so they've been to these locations.

Speaker: They've talked about them.

Speaker: We've been like free gold watch.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You know, there's a couple of West Coast ones.

Speaker: I'm surprised they're not on there.

Speaker: But let's let's move on.

Speaker: OK, favorite pinball publication or article.

Speaker: I feel so bad because like Jeff Patterson is embarrassed that he got this.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: OK, but at the same time.

Speaker: And it's yeah.

Speaker: So Guns N' Roses, Pinball, Deep Dive.

Speaker: Come on, Jeff, you deserve this game, this award, because that was an amazing.

Speaker: I actually, but third to that, the third vote was the Deep Root Pinball platform, pinball, pin armor ecosystem, future games and future plans.

Speaker: Such a great article and so accurate.

Speaker: OK, all right.

Speaker: Next, best toys and gimmicks.

Speaker: Okay, I don't get this one at all.

Speaker: I remember this one distinctly.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Okay, the challenge.

Speaker: How do you define a toy or a gimmick?

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: When I think toy or gimmick...

Speaker: Honestly, what comes to mind is Pat Lawler.

Speaker: I think of Adam's family with the thing hand.

Speaker: I think of Twilight Zone with the battlefield.

Speaker: I think of something that's not conventionally in a pinball that is maybe specific to that machine.

Speaker: Yeah, I think it seems like peripherally involved in the gameplay.

Speaker: It's not just like a Barbie doll that you've glued under the glass.

Speaker: Or a Trolls doll you stuck in Rollercoaster Tycoon.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: So it's that.

Speaker: So it interacts with play at some point, but it's... Like newer stuff, Groot or Sparky from Metallica.

Speaker: Like they are called Bash Toys.

Speaker: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker: You could say that now.

Speaker: So this is Guns N' Roses by Jersey Jack.

Speaker: And I will say that, OK, I think that Avengers has, you know, they have some really cool things in there.

Speaker: I think the subway is cool and all that.

Speaker: I think just putting in.

Speaker: all of the instruments into the play field with the drumsticks and with the guitar lock and the spinner that's a guitar pick.

Speaker: And then you have the bass on the left side that has the different ramps.

Speaker: I mean, that really is a pretty amazing integration that Eric did there.

Speaker: But to me, that's theme integration.

Speaker: That's not toys and gimmicks.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: But I would say that that's a toy and a gimmick is part of theme integration.

Speaker: See, then you start muddying the waters on that.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Well, there's 1,800 votes in this.

Speaker: I can interpret it however I want.

Speaker: This is where I felt like pinball industry awards got it right because they gave it to Stranger Things.

Speaker: Even though like that might not be Harold is a fantastic game.

Speaker: That projection system has never been done on a pinball machine.

Speaker: Yeah, that was cool.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Well, actually, I thought the black light effect was was really cool.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: If I got in.

Speaker: Oh, my gosh, that pinball topper looked really cool.

Speaker: And yes, it was straight out of the 80s, which of course it is.

Speaker: But it was really cool.

Speaker: And like, I'm not a huge fan of stranger things.

Speaker: I know people are starting to warm up to it.

Speaker: I knew it took a year and a half or whatever it's been, but like it has a bash toy.

Speaker: The Demogorgon is a bash toy.

Speaker: Like it just, it may, that's why I have a rough time with this category.

Speaker: Cause like, don't get me wrong.

Speaker: Guns and roses is a fantastic machine, but there's nothing.

Speaker: I look at that play field and think that is a fantastic toy.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: So that's just me.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: So your hate mail.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: So favorite pinball virtual event.

Speaker: I'm just going to say this out.

Speaker: It was the virtual pinball expo by Chicago.

Speaker: I think they did a great job.

Speaker: They won with 27% of the vote and they were 11% over the next guy.

Speaker: So, and pin clash was next.

Speaker: So I would say that that was pretty amazing on the fly being able to, well, not really on the fly, but able to retool it.

Speaker: So that was pretty awesome.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Best theme integration.

Speaker: So same players.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Guns and roses.

Speaker: Hands down.

Speaker: Absolutely.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I would, I would argue that if you stripped off all of the cosmetic paint on a game and walk up to it and say, what do you think this is?

Speaker: If you walk up to a stripped down guns and roses, you're going to think it's guns and roses.

Speaker: Yep.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Favorite website.

Speaker: honest.

Speaker: Is there any other besides like, don't get me wrong, Jeff Patterson.

Speaker: We love this weekend pinball.

Speaker: I use pin side more than any other pinball website that's out there.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: You know what?

Speaker: The top three on here are what I go to a lot.

Speaker: Um, pin side,

Speaker: Hands down.

Speaker: Even with all the drama on Pinside, it's still a great resource.

Speaker: This Week in Pinball, again, great resource to summarize all that drama on Pinside.

Speaker: And the Internet Pinball Database, it's so great.

Speaker: Now I will say there's, there's obviously some other honorable mentions that I'm just going to run down.

Speaker: So pinball news, tilt forums, pop a pinball, pinball magazine, John's arcade, Buffalo pinball and fun with bonus really actually great, great sites.

Speaker: And I just want to make sure everybody knew about them, but yeah, the, the top three are going to be the juggernauts.

Speaker: So, yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Well, and the thing about Pinside, I actually never see the drama, but I use, there's 10 tabs on there.

Speaker: You know what I'm saying?

Speaker: I just, there's so much information there.

Speaker: It's hard not to go to Pinside because if you need to know something about a pinball machine that just popped up on Craigslist, you go to Pinside or, or internet pinball database.

Speaker: You know, it just, there's, there's so much I find on Pinside.

Speaker: I just, it's hard to say that there's any other site that's above that.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: So best rules, same player, except same players.

Speaker: However, I'm going to do an honorable mention and say heist heavy metal and Ranger in the Ruins by Nick Baldridge.

Speaker: By the way, anybody who knows who Nick Baldridge is, he is a crazy savant who does all these bingo games.

Speaker: And I guarantee if anybody actually had access to his game,

Speaker: they would be amazed by what a savant he is.

Speaker: But because he's in Virginia and it's kind of a niche area, I'm glad he got some votes.

Speaker: But let's talk about best rules between Avengers, GNR, Rick and Morty, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Stranger Things, and Hot Wheels.

Speaker: It's Avengers.

Speaker: Is there really any other thing?

Speaker: I mean, honestly.

Speaker: The rules on everything else are great, but the problem is Keith is pushing the bounds of what rules can be.

Speaker: It's hard.

Speaker: It's kind of hard to compete with the best player ever when you're trying to do the rules integration because he has such a great finger on the pulse of, okay, this is a great rule set and it's accessible.

Speaker: Like his, okay, even if I can stumble through his rules, you know, what was that?

Speaker: Even a blind squirrel finds a nut in the cupboard every once in a while.

Speaker: But he's able to take it to an excellent level.

Speaker: So even the top players in the world love the rules.

Speaker: So...

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And I, yeah.

Speaker: Total fan boy for his rule sets, which is why I own every one of his machines.

Speaker: And I, you know, I have a maiden pinball come in the summer.

Speaker: So, okay.

Speaker: Best animations in display.

Speaker: I'm fine with this one.

Speaker: GNR.

Speaker: I mean, yeah, the display, you could just say display.

Speaker: Like they have so much on there.

Speaker: It's not even close.

Speaker: Between GNR and Rick and Morty.

Speaker: Cause Rick and Morty was great too.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I would agree with that, but you also, that's when you have to take into the content and having that much concert footage is just unbelievable.

Speaker: I agree.

Speaker: Well, when, what Eric say on our podcast, when we interviewed him, did he say it was like two terabytes, four terabytes?

Speaker: It was so much that it's, they're never going to be able to, to watch any of that stuff.

Speaker: When they mail you a hard drive.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: That is a ton of content.

Speaker: So, and professionally shot that guns and roses was the highest, uh, the highest earning concert of the year until they shut it down.

Speaker: So, uh, okay.

Speaker: Favorite pinball YouTube channel.

Speaker: Straight down the middle.

Speaker: What is that, four years running?

Speaker: Yeah, it's great.

Speaker: You know, I will say there are a lot of great options out there.

Speaker: And I'm just going to run through these two straight down the middle.

Speaker: TNT Amusements.

Speaker: I mean, who has not pulled up Todd Tucky and watched something?

Speaker: Papa TV, obviously, if you're going to look at rules, you know, Kerry Hardy, Pinball Moss, Flipping Out Pinball, No Coin Drop Required.

Speaker: uh marv loco and hurry up challenge so all of these deserve at least honorable mentions so well and the cool part too i don't know if you caught that this year but if you made the top 10 regardless if you won or not you still get a plaque as honorable mention or for for top 10 and that's pretty awesome yeah that is really cool jeff to do that this year as well best call outs

Speaker: Rick and Morty, baby.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And the funny thing is I so we don't have a Rick and Morty around here, so I've only been able to see it online.

Speaker: But I hear everybody who plays it.

Speaker: They laugh so hard at it, which is what a great way of doing it.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Yep.

Speaker: And I'm fine with Rick and Morty.

Speaker: Oh, absolutely.

Speaker: No, perfect.

Speaker: Yeah, it's a lot better.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: The only other one that you could probably go with is, is probably Guns N' Roses.

Speaker: Cause that was all custom call outs as well too.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It's yeah, exactly.

Speaker: But I'm, I'm biased.

Speaker: So I like Mark Silk's like his, his work on teenage Mario turtles, man.

Speaker: Well, it's great.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I would say all top three are pretty amazing.

Speaker: You have Rick and Morty of Guns N' Roses and TMNT.

Speaker: And so, yes.

Speaker: And yeah,

Speaker: I guarantee if they just turned on the mic and let Mark just go to town, he would come up with even funnier call outs than what they were able to allow him to do.

Speaker: That's the secret.

Speaker: Did you know that's the secret?

Speaker: You know, Godzilla is supposedly rumor and Mark Silk's doing the Godzilla voice.

Speaker: He's doing the Godzilla voice.

Speaker: Yeah, I believe it.

Speaker: That's the rumor we're starting.

Speaker: But can he do that?

Speaker: He's not really a dinosaur.

Speaker: So can he play a dinosaur?

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Best pinball mod.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I don't know if you guys listen to Kerry Hardy.

Speaker: He went over the twippies and he kind of pounded this category.

Speaker: And the problem is, is now that I've listened to him, I kind of agree.

Speaker: Like,

Speaker: It should be in a modification to the pinball machine.

Speaker: And the one that won this was this.

Speaker: The Stranger Things UV kit.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: And so the problem is, he's like, you go to Stern's website and it's an accessory.

Speaker: Like it's, you find it under accessories.

Speaker: It was planned to be with the game.

Speaker: It was never a modification modification for the game.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I will say though, talk about anything that changes the game.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Changes in really, if you look at all this stuff, it's all amazing.

Speaker: So the stranger things, UV kit, if you own a stranger things, why on God's green earth, do you not have this in your machine?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It is amazing.

Speaker: And get the top or two.

Speaker: Well, can you argue that when we were talking with Martin on Final Round, he said when they got to Australia, they were already equipped.

Speaker: They came with the light kit.

Speaker: So technically, it's not a modification at that point.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: You could technically say toppers are modifications.

Speaker: I just don't know.

Speaker: We start getting muddy waters again.

Speaker: I'll call it.

Speaker: I'll say, yeah, that's good.

Speaker: So you have the interactive backboard display by 86 pixels, excuse me, Avira House of Horror, the Gargoyle.

Speaker: Yeah, all these things.

Speaker: All the...

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: The pirates of the Caribbean ship sculpts.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I, those things are amazing by the art of, uh, I don't know how to pronounce this guy's name.

Speaker: He's out of the country, uh, Loire, but it's, it's pretty amazing.

Speaker: The red smoke, which mod, uh,

Speaker: we need to get this guy on.

Speaker: I talked to him about a year ago because I got on the list for the red smoke, which mod 2.0 by Steve.

Speaker: And I have all of his mods.

Speaker: I, that reminds me I need to reach out, Steve.

Speaker: Sorry.

Speaker: I, we've, I'm really, I do follow up.

Speaker: Sometimes it just takes a while.

Speaker: So, you know, there's some other things on there.

Speaker: So yeah, pretty awesome stuff.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: Yeah, Measle Mods is on there for the Avengers Infinity Quest, Penn Stadium Lighting, Flipper Cooling by, you know, Creature from the Backlroom, Black Alley Creations.

Speaker: So all good.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Favorite pinball streamer.

Speaker: I mean, come on.

Speaker: It's Deadflip.

Speaker: I mean, he's the one everybody recognizes.

Speaker: four years in a row baby and that's so it's great like dead flip does good for the community like he obviously streams stern stuff he is on the forefront of showing games he's been doing it the longest

Speaker: And so, well, it's hard too.

Speaker: Cause it's like, he gets all the prime content, like Buffalo pinball might follow up.

Speaker: Cause they got guns and roses right out of the box.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And so they would be the only one that's comparable to having resources like dead flip does.

Speaker: So I don't know, but you're getting the personality too.

Speaker: So, and God bless RB flip France.

Speaker: Those guys are hilarious.

Speaker: I, I, I turned them on and I watch him.

Speaker: I have no idea what they're talking about.

Speaker: But it's fun to watch someone in another country enjoying it.

Speaker: Yes, it's fantastic.

Speaker: No shock that Dead Flip won.

Speaker: Yeah, good for him.

Speaker: And hey, Zach Manning's still on there flipping out pinball.

Speaker: Okay, best light show.

Speaker: And come on.

Speaker: Guns N' Roses, no chance.

Speaker: No one ever has a chance on that one.

Speaker: Yeah, I agree.

Speaker: Favorite pinball topper.

Speaker: Yeah, so Rick and Morty took it away.

Speaker: I don't know how I feel about that one.

Speaker: It is a free topper.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It's a good topper.

Speaker: But do you feel like there was other toppers out there that were better this year?

Speaker: No, I just didn't think there was a lot of great toppers this year.

Speaker: And I'm a topper guy.

Speaker: OK, I actually bought the Jurassic Park topper.

Speaker: I bought the Avengers Infinity Quest topper.

Speaker: OK, there wasn't a Black Knight topper.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Well, I mean, technically Turtles was because at the moving eye, but it didn't talk to you because it's the Technodrome.

Speaker: I just, I don't know.

Speaker: I had a hard, I had a hard time with that one because it was like a Walmart display.

Speaker: And I feel bad because speaking of toppers, it's fantastic that Rick and Mori was free.

Speaker: Or it came as a thank you for all the games selling out within four hours or whatever it was.

Speaker: But you look on the opposite end of the spectrum because Turtles, I was in on a Turtles topper until it came out $1,000.

Speaker: Yeah, that was kind of a lot.

Speaker: It's hard to justify $20.

Speaker: percent of the game so and i i felt like that was searching for the ceiling because i think they found it because i didn't buy it um yeah i didn't buy it either and i actually buy most of it and i actually i ordered a led zeppelin one because it has the interactive search lights which looks pretty cool um but yeah i yeah that was that was a dud for me but you know buy it now and you can sell it on pin side and for three thousand and two years or whatever yeah uh favorite pinball podcast i mean

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Good for him.

Speaker: Chris took it.

Speaker: Kaneda.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So he's entertaining.

Speaker: Obviously, there's a reason why people listen to his show.

Speaker: Well, and let's go back over the streamer, YouTube, podcast.

Speaker: These guys have won it four years in a row.

Speaker: They've been around for a while.

Speaker: They've got quite the fan base.

Speaker: It's funny to me because we saw a lot of drama.

Speaker: There's always, for some odd reason, there's a lot of drama with the pinball podcast.

Speaker: That's not odd.

Speaker: It's self-generated.

Speaker: Yes, it is self-generated.

Speaker: But I really did want to see Super Awesome take it.

Speaker: I feel bad that they put a lot of that effort in.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It was certainly the most well-produced show.

Speaker: It probably should have been in its own category because it wasn't just Chris and Chris talking.

Speaker: You know, Franchi put a lot of time editing and really polished the show.

Speaker: What we do is more of an afternoon chat.

Speaker: Like you call up your buddy and we're talking.

Speaker: But they put a lot more into refining it.

Speaker: So maybe it should have been a different category.

Speaker: But hey, they took a second.

Speaker: They took a second.

Speaker: It was good.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I want to reiterate, this is all favorite.

Speaker: This isn't the best.

Speaker: The problem is, for some odd reason, people think that these awards are justifications for either how they run their podcast or it's a pat on the back, essentially.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Chris Franchi put a lot of work into that show.

Speaker: It is amazing how much editing he put into that show.

Speaker: Nothing to take away from Kaneda because he's been doing this for five years.

Speaker: He's obviously doing something right because, let's be honest, you've got the percentages there.

Speaker: Kaneda was like 900, almost 1,000 votes versus 350 from Super Awesome Pinball Show.

Speaker: So he has quite the following.

Speaker: He is doing something right.

Speaker: Okay, best artwork.

Speaker: I don't agree with this one.

Speaker: I would say this suffers with Zombie Yeti having two options.

Speaker: Okay, I can see that.

Speaker: And so it suffers because I think he did an excellent job with both Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and Avengers.

Speaker: And really, if you add both of those together, that's 34% of the vote.

Speaker: So if you're talking best artist, it's going to be Zombie Yeti.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: However, Jersey Jack with Guns N' Roses, they got I don't I don't know the guy's name and I'm sorry about that, but they were able to put together a comparable package.

Speaker: That was excellent package.

Speaker: I would argue it should just go to Jeremy Packer anyway.

Speaker: But hey, all three machines look fantastic.

Speaker: All top three.

Speaker: Guns N' Roses, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and Avengers.

Speaker: Yeah, I still think Ninja Turtles, hands down.

Speaker: Yeah, well, that's what I voted for.

Speaker: Best play field, gameplay, and layout.

Speaker: We're almost done, kids.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: uh avengers infinity quest i mean yeah it is the layout yeah i agree uh game of the year hold on there's one missing from this category that we never talked about best artwork no wait uh rookie of the year oh yeah you're right it's not on here i don't know why it's not on here but ken cromwell won that one and that was awesome good job man that is you did a fantastic job with the marketing i know it probably isn't just you

Speaker: but it is awesome that you took home that award.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Well, Guns N' Roses, that release was the best release I've ever seen.

Speaker: So, yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Game of the year.

Speaker: Guns N' Roses.

Speaker: This one is obvious.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And this seems to be, I actually think the last two categories nailed it.

Speaker: The best play field, gameplay and layout, I think is Avengers.

Speaker: And the game of the year is Guns N' Roses because of the whole experiential thing.

Speaker: So, yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: I don't really have anything else to add on that.

Speaker: We only spent 20, 30 minutes on just talking to you.

Speaker: We talked way longer than we were planning on it, but that's okay.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Give us your thoughts too in the comments when we post this episode.

Speaker: Tell us what you thought.

Speaker: If we're close, if you agree with you disagree, I just, I felt like for most of these, these were on par.

Speaker: I was very impressed with how many were taken home by Jersey Jack pinball.

Speaker: It's awesome to see Eric being recognized for the work that he's putting in.

Speaker: Great job, Jeff.

Speaker: Jeff should get an award for an award show.

Speaker: Yeah, and I agree.

Speaker: Let's talk rumors really quick.

Speaker: I know the Pinball Show, I know that we're releasing this after they did their show this week.

Speaker: But last week they talked about the next title rumor and it wasn't hard to not see where this is coming from because it was kind of alluded to on the Twippies.

Speaker: If you saw this, the mayor of back to the future had said, is there another back to the future pinball machine coming?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And they said like to be continued.

Speaker: So let's talk back to the future.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Obviously, if we go timeline, Brian Eddy's next, he'd be in charge of Back to the Future.

Speaker: Does that do anything for you?

Speaker: Okay, so we are just going off.

Speaker: We really don't have any spoilers out there or any leaked information.

Speaker: We're just going off who is the next person in line.

Speaker: And it's got to be Brian Eddy since Stranger Things was his last one.

Speaker: And we are assuming, we haven't heard anything different, that he's still in the rotation.

Speaker: So that would make sense by him.

Speaker: The big challenge with this is...

Speaker: with theme versus theme integration.

Speaker: It's all going to depend on what assets they're given and how they're going to be able to integrate this.

Speaker: You're not going to be able to play the Jurassic Park card, which I thought was an excellent choice

Speaker: in basically being a side character in the Jurassic Park story.

Speaker: So you have this parallel thing going on, and so it's associated with it, and it's relevant, but it's not necessary that you're Ned driving to the docks, or you're Ned trying to go in and steal the canister of the embryos.

Speaker: Or so they could have easily gone down that road.

Speaker: And that's what Ghostbusters did with, okay, who brought the dog?

Speaker: And it worked really well with Jurassic Park because it gave them a lot of flexibility.

Speaker: Josh, do you think that approach will work with Back to the Future?

Speaker: No, I think this has to be a theme integrated game.

Speaker: This can't be just some side quest of the series.

Speaker: I guess you could go that route.

Speaker: But with Stranger Things... You would feel left out, though.

Speaker: You would feel that you were shortchanged by the story if you're just interacting with Hildel High as opposed to actually being one of the characters, being Marty, being Biff or whatever.

Speaker: I agree.

Speaker: I think, but if you look at Stranger Things, Brian Eddy did theme integration very well on that game, regardless of how you feel about the gameplay or the actual game itself.

Speaker: The theme integration is fantastic on that game.

Speaker: So I think Back to the Future going to Eddy is a good choice when it comes to theme integration.

Speaker: I think that if you're going to do this, you do the first movie.

Speaker: I feel like the second and third movie were good, but the second movie, so half the story is just pretty much recapping what happened in the first movie.

Speaker: And so the second movie is look at the cool stuff that it's going to happen in the future.

Speaker: I, the stuff that we think about with back to the future is K one hoverboard or, Hey, I want the self-lacing Nikes or, Hey, I want all this kind of stuff, which is fun and gimmicky.

Speaker: But that's really all it was.

Speaker: It really didn't tell the story very well.

Speaker: Back to the Future is a perfect story if you just use the first movie.

Speaker: Yep, I agree.

Speaker: I think there's a lot of meat on the bone for this game.

Speaker: And I could see a lot of wonderful things.

Speaker: There's a lot of people that have talked to me about this being their dream theme, which kind of shocks me.

Speaker: But I did not grow up on the Back to the Future movies.

Speaker: I remember watching them growing up.

Speaker: And they were fantastic.

Speaker: Like as a child, I thought they were great.

Speaker: And I've bought them all since and have rewatched them within the last year or two.

Speaker: And they're good.

Speaker: They just, they're not my cup of tea.

Speaker: And so what I'm more intrigued about is to see what Eddie produces for a play filled this go around.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I, it has to be just the first movie.

Speaker: I, it really, the, the other ones,

Speaker: the other ones were a money grab.

Speaker: They didn't feel... If you do a critical examination of the story, it's kind of like The Matrix.

Speaker: The Matrix was the perfect one-off story.

Speaker: And when you start getting into third, fourth, fifth, sixth, it just feels like, hey, we made a boatload of money on this.

Speaker: And so let's rewrite something and make it extended.

Speaker: So...

Speaker: I think they have an opportunity to knock it out of the park, as we would say.

Speaker: I hope so.

Speaker: But it also depends on getting the licensing.

Speaker: You have to have the DeLorean in there.

Speaker: Yep.

Speaker: You have to have Michael J. Fox.

Speaker: That's one of the biggest complaints of the Data East one.

Speaker: Yeah, you have to have Michael J. Fox.

Speaker: Christopher Lloyd, you don't have to have Christopher Lloyd, because I know that there was a licensing issue on the Adams family with his likeness and Fester.

Speaker: And so on the virtual, on the virtual pinball machine.

Speaker: So they actually had to change that.

Speaker: So it didn't, it no longer resembled Christopher Lloyd.

Speaker: But you have to have Michael J. Fox.

Speaker: You just have to.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And there are other things in there that you have, the two things you have to have, you have to have Fox, you have to have the Lord, the DeLorean.

Speaker: Well, and this is what's funny is like, I know that they mentioned this, like people have mentioned this last year, but when are we going to get to the point where we're actually going to see titles that aren't being rehashed that's already been done before?

Speaker: Like Turtles had already been done by Data East.

Speaker: You had Avengers have already been done by Stern.

Speaker: I mean, they're obviously all better upgrades of those titles.

Speaker: um but back to the future's already been done before we know that godzilla is coming because spooky pinball was pretty forthcoming with stern getting the license anyway i mean whether or not they actually make it or they're sitting on it we just know they have the license because that was public airing but regardless like there's a lot of pinball machines that are coming back out there technically rehashed i mean jurassic park is another

Speaker: Data East rehash.

Speaker: So is this just easy, low hanging fruit or is this, this is the prime time to do it.

Speaker: It's the prime time to do it.

Speaker: It's, it's the dad rock stuff where, um, all the people who are growing up and that is their nostalgic sweet spot is arcades and eighties movies.

Speaker: And that's why, um,

Speaker: guys in their forties and fifties are feeling like, you know what, now I can, I can afford some of these toys.

Speaker: And so they're starting to do their own stuff.

Speaker: So this is the stuff they're going to collect.

Speaker: That's, that's probably actually why Beatles didn't sell as well as it could have, because it was aiming for the sixties to seventies year old, even though it's a great game.

Speaker: Well, and I even talked to operators and they say that Turtles is the best earner on location.

Speaker: I mean, these are just smart titles.

Speaker: But Turtles is also still relevant though.

Speaker: They have been able to ride that theme on Nickelodeon multiple times.

Speaker: So it's still there.

Speaker: But yeah, the reason why they're milking these 80s themes is because the people who are buying it are in that demographic.

Speaker: Yep.

Speaker: Well, I think we've touched on that long enough.

Speaker: I'm excited regardless to see what happens.

Speaker: We don't know for sure if it's Back to the Future, but listening to the rumblings, it sounds like that's what it is.

Speaker: And we're excited.

Speaker: I'm always excited to see a new pinball machine.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: No, absolutely.

Speaker: Let's move on to the last one.

Speaker: This is what people showed up for.

Speaker: The...

Speaker: We should do... I've been watching a lot of wrestling movies.

Speaker: We've been watching Young Rock on NBC, which is fantastic.

Speaker: If you have not watched that, you should go watch, if you're a fan of Dwayne The Rock Johnson.

Speaker: Are you serious?

Speaker: There's a show called Young Rock?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So it's about his... He says it's pretty accurate.

Speaker: Besides the stuff that happens in the future, it's all based on The Rock running as president, and he's rehashing it.

Speaker: the stories as a child to relate to the American public that he is like them, essentially.

Speaker: And so we watched that.

Speaker: I watched Fighting With My Family.

Speaker: If you haven't watched that one, that's a really cool one about Paige.

Speaker: She was in WWE.

Speaker: She talks about how she got involved, and she's from London.

Speaker: And Dwayne The Rock Johnson was actually in London recording Fast and the Curious 6.

Speaker: And he had saw a local news article on this, and that's why he decided to make this movie.

Speaker: Fantastic.

Speaker: So that's why I'm like, when we were on Pinball Players, and I was like, dude, I've had an itch.

Speaker: I was like, that's why we should do the intro for You vs. Robert Mueller.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: So where do we start?

Speaker: So Josh set this up.

Speaker: I sent you the release that was sent out to the people who ordered the game and they're not releasing anything publicly.

Speaker: They've stopped talking to anybody except for the people who they have the money from.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And so they sent this release to them.

Speaker: And why don't you go ahead and recap this gem of a PR release?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I'm going just to kind of boil this down.

Speaker: I don't want to read this all.

Speaker: It's essentially saying, like, like Scott said, we are no longer telling the public any of this information.

Speaker: We're going to give it directly to the people that bought these games.

Speaker: The first paragraph is stating they still haven't got their UL licensing for the U.S. And the CE licensing outside of the U.S. is still becoming a problem with them.

Speaker: At this point, they're thinking they're at least a month out, if not more.

Speaker: So we're looking four to six weeks.

Speaker: They're not a month out.

Speaker: They're not.

Speaker: It's just, they're not.

Speaker: I'm sorry, but you should have had this done.

Speaker: Like, what were you doing for the last three years?

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Seriously.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I'm sorry.

Speaker: I can't even get past the first paragraph.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: If you come out swinging, like I'm going to do things like Stern and I'm going to be competing with them and we're going to be doing a faster, better and having better, uh, you know, we're having cheaper games and we're just going to flood the market and take over.

Speaker: This is like figuring out that you have to put a third prong on the plug.

Speaker: This is the stuff that they want.

Speaker: So when you buy it, it doesn't burn down your house.

Speaker: That's why homebrews don't do this because it costs too much money.

Speaker: You're like, well, if you're tinkering on it, fine.

Speaker: But if you are planning on selling thousands of machines, then you have to make sure that they are safe.

Speaker: And there are these licensing regulations that if you want to stamp on your box that this is safe and yes, we've gone through the certification of it and it's not going to shock you as soon as you hit it, then that's what you do.

Speaker: And guess what?

Speaker: Stern does this four times a year.

Speaker: Like this is not one thing.

Speaker: My understanding though, it's per model.

Speaker: So with Stern, no, sorry, like not per theme.

Speaker: It would be per theme.

Speaker: the spike two system would have to be UL listed.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: But everything that, everything that has spike two is UL listed.

Speaker: Okay, fine.

Speaker: But you have to do this.

Speaker: This is part of your job in making something.

Speaker: I mean, it's, it's just such a clown show that, that, that they don't even, it's like a kid who's smoking pot and saying, dude, do you know, it'd be really cool if we made a pinball machine.

Speaker: Do you know how to do that?

Speaker: No, but it's totally easy, right?

Speaker: It's like a ball and a plunger and a flipper.

Speaker: We're cool.

Speaker: What, you have to have two flippers?

Speaker: Okay, fine.

Speaker: We'll put two flippers in there.

Speaker: Maybe some pop bumpers or something.

Speaker: Or we'll call them jets because that sounds cool.

Speaker: But seriously, the fact that they are, it is beyond comical at this point.

Speaker: Just the ineptitude that it trickles top down.

Speaker: And it just blows me away that that's the first thing.

Speaker: And so, okay, so we're going to jump into the next paragraph.

Speaker: We continue to appreciate many of the vendors being able to get timely stuff out to us.

Speaker: Unfortunately, some vendors are having issues.

Speaker: Guess what?

Speaker: Your company's having issues.

Speaker: You can't make a stupid machine.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: And if you're having a hard time, you can't even eke out.

Speaker: So they were planning on doing 160.

Speaker: So they had orders for 130.

Speaker: So they were planning on building 30 extra games.

Speaker: And now they have scrapped that too.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: So we are just making 130 games because guess what?

Speaker: Nothing ever breaks in a pinball machine.

Speaker: So these are perfect.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: This is a ball being catapulted around inside this little glass case with plastic parts and rubber bands.

Speaker: Like, what do you think is going to happen to all this stuff?

Speaker: Well, and what's weird to me is at the end of that paragraph, it says it doesn't make sense now to make more Raza machines than what were ordered.

Speaker: Because if you remember originally from the release that was two months ago, it said we've had 130 on order, but we're going to make 160.

Speaker: And with this paragraph, it's saying like, we don't have enough parts.

Speaker: We can't get the parts that are ordered for the one 30.

Speaker: So we're going to just do the one 30 and call it quits for the day.

Speaker: Okay, Josh.

Speaker: So I, I'm going to give you a quick economics lesson.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: If I'm going to build a car, okay.

Speaker: How about this?

Speaker: I'm going to build a stealth bomber.

Speaker: How much does one stealth bomber cost?

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I haven't a clue.

Speaker: These are made up numbers.

Speaker: Okay, so don't go and Google these.

Speaker: Cost a billion dollars to make one stealth bomber.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Do you know how much it costs to make two stealth bombers?

Speaker: I would assume 2 billion.

Speaker: 1.2 billion.

Speaker: Do you know how much it costs to do three?

Speaker: 1.25 billion.

Speaker: Because what you have is you have economies of scale.

Speaker: There's a reason why Toyota is able or Ford or whatever is able to sell cars based on very little upfront cost because it's spread over thousands of models.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: So I'll do the pinball analogy.

Speaker: Josh, how much does the star Wars license cost?

Speaker: A million dollars.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So how much does it cost to make one star Wars pinball machine?

Speaker: A million dollars.

Speaker: A million dollars plus 3,500 parts.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: How much does it cost to make two?

Speaker: How much does it cost to make three?

Speaker: Exactly.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I get what you're saying.

Speaker: You see what I'm getting at.

Speaker: And so if you have no clue about manufacturing economies of scale and you think you're going to save money by making 130 machines as opposed to making a thousand machines, if your machine's good, you will sell a thousand machines.

Speaker: You will, but the fact that they have no faith in this POS retro nineties feeling game, that's not even that good.

Speaker: And they're only trying to run away from it so fast that they don't even want to make the more than what is contractually obligated.

Speaker: Here's the thing.

Speaker: I don't think it's that.

Speaker: I think the problem is, is Deep Root has been around for at least three years now.

Speaker: Robert Mueller came out swinging with head-to-head and on Eclectic Gamers and was very bold and upfront.

Speaker: And at this time, when you listen to those interviews for the first time, there is almost a sincerity there from Robert Mueller that you believe what he is saying.

Speaker: And as time went on,

Speaker: We gave them time.

Speaker: We gave them a year.

Speaker: We gave them time because they hadn't taken money.

Speaker: Now they've taken money in orders.

Speaker: And then a year later, they're like, the five days are deeper is coming.

Speaker: So we're like, oh, we finally get to see this.

Speaker: And then that gets canceled.

Speaker: You know, we're going to do that next year.

Speaker: And so two years go by and COVID happens, which is understandable.

Speaker: No, no.

Speaker: COVID rescued them.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Do you think that they were ready for Texas Pinball Festival, the five days of Deep Root, before COVID happened?

Speaker: So my point being, no, they were not.

Speaker: There's no chance.

Speaker: That's like saying, oh, I was driving in to to turn in the turn paper.

Speaker: It was totally done, teacher.

Speaker: But guess what?

Speaker: I got in a car accident, so I couldn't actually make it there.

Speaker: But I totally have it.

Speaker: And a year later, the teacher's like, wait, did are you ever going to turn that paper?

Speaker: But the point I'm trying to make here is we believe these people so much because we thought they knew what they were talking about.

Speaker: All the fancy words, the quad assembly, the we're going to pump it out, we're going to do it bigger or better.

Speaker: And so we're like, fine, you're not taking money.

Speaker: I'm interested.

Speaker: I want to see what you produce.

Speaker: And so as time has went on...

Speaker: And they've backtracked and they've backtracked and they've lied and said, hey, I didn't say that.

Speaker: Yeah, you did.

Speaker: But you're on record of saying that.

Speaker: Yeah, you're on record.

Speaker: It's right there.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Exactly.

Speaker: Red flags start going up left and right.

Speaker: Boom, boom, boom, right?

Speaker: So the biggest red flag to me is when you have six industry professionals, quote unquote, come into your place of business.

Speaker: And then when they go to leave...

Speaker: your whole operation comes to a screeching halt where we were going to release.

Speaker: These were, we're not going to, that's actually the bad part.

Speaker: They weren't professionals.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: They were.

Speaker: These are people that have never built a pinball machine.

Speaker: In the industry.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: In that, in the pinball media.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: But these are people that have never built a pinball machine though.

Speaker: So, you know, Kate, actually that's the one thing they have in common with Robert Mueller.

Speaker: That's terrible.

Speaker: Yes, I agree.

Speaker: But my point being is that's when not little tiny lawn red flags come screaming up.

Speaker: That's when someone sends up the red flag on a flagpole and puts lights on it.

Speaker: And it's so bad that you have to NDA those six people that came to your building.

Speaker: They're not allowed to say anything, but whatever they've said has halted your operations.

Speaker: You need to take a better look.

Speaker: I think that they have shot themselves so many times in the foot that when it finally came to orders, people didn't trust them.

Speaker: Shocker.

Speaker: Now, if this happened a year ago, let's say COVID didn't happen.

Speaker: I know people wish it never did.

Speaker: Let's say COVID never happened.

Speaker: Let's say everything's actually on track.

Speaker: Let's say Deep Root...

Speaker: unveils texas pinball festival 2020 it's been two years at this point that they've been talking and say hey we're gonna do this and they finally unveil and they're ready they've got games in boxes i guarantee that 130 would have been over a thousand people are dying for a john poppadu game people are dying for something different there people are frustrated not not to take a stab at stern or or jjp but

Speaker: there are underlining issues that aren't getting resolved with these companies.

Speaker: And when someone comes out and says, Hey, we're going to do it better than what Stern's doing.

Speaker: And we're going to do it better than what JJP is doing.

Speaker: And let's just be honest.

Speaker: It's the play field issues.

Speaker: You know, when someone hears that that's music to their ears, like they want a game that they don't have to take the glass off of it's plug and play, which you're not going to get with pinball.

Speaker: Like people wake up.

Speaker: It doesn't exist.

Speaker: It doesn't exist.

Speaker: Even Williams games came.

Speaker: I know everyone covets them, but they came off the line having to be worked on.

Speaker: So.

Speaker: So let's say 2020 TPF games are in boxes.

Speaker: I just I think the problem is, is there's so many red flags at this point that I am actually shocked that they were able to convince 130 people that they were going to do this.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And I think they had the momentum.

Speaker: They had everything right.

Speaker: They had.

Speaker: They were telling us the sweet little nothings we wanted to hear.

Speaker: They were showing us the designing team we all wanted.

Speaker: You know, Dennis Norman, Barry Osler, John Papaduke.

Speaker: I mean, these are big names in the industry.

Speaker: And so it's like it all felt right.

Speaker: But as time went on, it just got worse and worse and worse.

Speaker: And so I truly feel terrible for those that decided to gamble and take a chance on this company.

Speaker: Because I feel like we are at Zidware 3.0.

Speaker: We're not at Zidware.

Speaker: We're actually looking at Skip B right now.

Speaker: Dude.

Speaker: It is so bad.

Speaker: I actually read a book over the last month.

Speaker: It was Malcolm Gladwell's book.

Speaker: It was talking to strangers.

Speaker: And it talks about the truth default that we have.

Speaker: And that it wasn't really saying it was good or bad because on some level you have to accept what someone is telling you is true.

Speaker: But he went through and talked about all these instances where people ended up being like a big spy or even talked about Bernie Madoff.

Speaker: And he talked about all these things.

Speaker: And,

Speaker: He said there were red flags and experienced people had questions about these things, but the truth default made them rationalize why it wasn't what they're seeing.

Speaker: And this is the, you know, this is the, the children's fairy tale, the emperor's new clothes.

Speaker: And if, if you don't know it, it's a fantastic story.

Speaker: And I think about it all the time where, um,

Speaker: I'll sum it up.

Speaker: It's a guy who comes in to the king and he says, I can make this magical clothes for you that the only people that can see it are wise.

Speaker: And so he pretends to make this clothes.

Speaker: And so the guys, so the king is wearing underwear.

Speaker: And of course, everybody who looks at him sees underwear, but no one wants to say it because they don't want to look foolish.

Speaker: And until finally a child.

Speaker: So he's walking outside and the child looks and says, hey, he's not wearing any clothes.

Speaker: And then everyone's like, it kind of breaks the spell, the collusion that everybody has to say, no, no, no, it's totally fine.

Speaker: He's wearing something.

Speaker: I can see it.

Speaker: I'm wise.

Speaker: So this is the challenge that we have with Deep Root.

Speaker: There's not four flags.

Speaker: The entire company is a giant red flag.

Speaker: The entire company.

Speaker: I'm sorry.

Speaker: Like, okay.

Speaker: I, and I have said, I hope to be loud wrong.

Speaker: I hope they pull a Gene Cunningham out of their hat and they make 150 or 130 of these games like big bang bar and prove me wrong that they can do it.

Speaker: But Gene Cunningham still lost money on the deal.

Speaker: He did.

Speaker: He, he still, um,

Speaker: It pretty much bankrupted after he did.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It bankrupted, but he was committed to do it.

Speaker: And so he did it.

Speaker: So I feel that this is going to be that side project that eventually is, it's so far out there that is just never going to get done.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Um, let's, let's, so the, the third paragraph kind of reiterates what says in the second one that they're not going to be making more machines.

Speaker: past the 1.30.

Speaker: They're kind of waiting on parts.

Speaker: There won't be any updates till mid-May is what it says.

Speaker: But here's the thing that just boggles me.

Speaker: Do you think there'll be an update?

Speaker: I don't.

Speaker: Well, here's the thing.

Speaker: This is what blows my mind.

Speaker: Let me read this verbatim.

Speaker: I'm not going to do this verbatim.

Speaker: They're going to offer financial relief to those games that were bought.

Speaker: No, no, no.

Speaker: If there are delays.

Speaker: I am going to do this verbatim because it's so ludicrous.

Speaker: Nobody actually with any sort of PR department would write this.

Speaker: With current lead times on the certification and parts, there will not be any significant updates in the next six weeks.

Speaker: Our goal is to update.

Speaker: Our goal, by the way,

Speaker: I would add parenthetically, well, it's been their goal to make machines, is to update in mid-May and at that time, if games are not immediately ready to start shipping, to offer some financial relief for the delays in the form of a return of store credit, discount of the Raza purchase, or allow customers to rescind Raza purchases for a refund with nominal interest.

Speaker: Okay, I want to break this down for two seconds.

Speaker: Return of store credit.

Speaker: What store credit?

Speaker: What are you guys selling?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Brazos is the very first product.

Speaker: You want a Magic Girl?

Speaker: Like that doesn't shoot?

Speaker: I know Kerry Hardy has already said this, but I totally agree with what he said.

Speaker: Like there is nothing else you're selling.

Speaker: Like I don't want to buy $6,000 worth of pin pods.

Speaker: Are you guys even pushing those out the door yet?

Speaker: Like there is nothing else you guys are selling.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: The warehouse is empty.

Speaker: And guess what?

Speaker: There's no warehouse.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And if you're not pushing out Rasa's, I guarantee the ship is halfway under the water.

Speaker: No one else is going to want store credit.

Speaker: A discount of Rasa purchase.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: So they're already probably losing money at this point because there's no chance 130 machines is going to make up for three years of lead time.

Speaker: So what does that mean though?

Speaker: Like they're going to give you part of your money back?

Speaker: You know what?

Speaker: It's probably an Ikea game.

Speaker: They send it to you and you assemble it yourself.

Speaker: And then you go and get your CE certification and the UL certification.

Speaker: You get it yourself.

Speaker: That's part of the fun.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: No, no.

Speaker: This is the one that blows my mind, right?

Speaker: allow customers to rescind their purchase for a refund with nominal interest.

Speaker: Oh, okay.

Speaker: Excuse me.

Speaker: So is it negatively?

Speaker: Is it negative interest?

Speaker: This is how I took it.

Speaker: And, and Robert Mueller's the lawyer, so he could educate us on what, what it said.

Speaker: But my, my thought process is, is you bought Raza for, what is it?

Speaker: $6,000 on the pro.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: We're going to go with $6,000.

Speaker: Cause I can't remember exactly.

Speaker: okay, I'm going to give you a refund, but there's interest involved in that.

Speaker: So I'm going to give you $5,000 back because you bought the game, but you no longer want it.

Speaker: So we're going to take a little bit off the top because of...

Speaker: you know, that's a game we're holding onto.

Speaker: What is nominal interest?

Speaker: Like is nominal interest like a restocking fee?

Speaker: That's exactly what I was thinking.

Speaker: Because I wonder what the, I wonder what the, the limitations on nominal interest, because I guarantee they're not paying you a percentage back.

Speaker: You're not going to get like 110% of your down payment.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I just, that one blows my mind.

Speaker: Unless you're going to give me more money.

Speaker: Like I'll cancel my Raza and you pay me $7,000 or $10,000.

Speaker: But a restocking fee is exactly what that sounds like to me.

Speaker: So you're telling me I took a chance on your company.

Speaker: You're not delivering on your product.

Speaker: You took my money.

Speaker: And after all that, you're going to shortchange me when you give me my money back for refund?

Speaker: Oh, no.

Speaker: That's not happening.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: So I just Googled this.

Speaker: Investotope –

Speaker: Investopedia.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: What is nominal interest rate?

Speaker: It says nominal interest rate refers to the interest rate before taking inflation into account.

Speaker: So they're expecting the inflation on their machines to go up?

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: Normal interest rate refers to the interest rate before taking inflation into the account.

Speaker: The federal funds rate, the interest rate.

Speaker: So I'm actually – So that sounds like to me because when you originally purchased the game, the pre-orders were $6,000, but then it was like –

Speaker: We're going to have an extra 30 games and they're going to be $10,000 a pop.

Speaker: So maybe they're saying, we'll give you back your money for the 6,000 instead of the 10,000.

Speaker: I don't, I have no idea.

Speaker: Like, okay, that could be taken two ways.

Speaker: That could be taken.

Speaker: Well, the interest rate is 1%.

Speaker: So we're going to give you that back.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: That's not going to happen by the way.

Speaker: I've seen into the future and I've seen how this ends because it's ended this way for about five other attempted startup companies that never happens.

Speaker: All righty.

Speaker: Last paragraph pretty much just says those are on the mail list that are not Raza customers are not going to be getting those extra machines because they're not going to have them.

Speaker: If people cancel, then you might have the opportunity to buy a machine because we'll make the 130.

Speaker: But that's going to be first come first serve.

Speaker: I would love to hear from anybody who actually has the money down and still is planning on keeping their money in.

Speaker: Because it's obviously someone who has more money than they care about and they're taking that long shot that it's going to be made.

Speaker: Well, what's weird to me is it says that they're going to offer these at the original price.

Speaker: So why the heck did you even jump the price by $3,000 for those extra 30 units?

Speaker: I have no idea.

Speaker: It's just so confusing.

Speaker: That's the problem.

Speaker: Do you know what it's like?

Speaker: It's like listening to my child describe a story where he's

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: And I was there and, and then, and then the dragon came and the dragon had like a princess outfit on and there was like unicorns and sparkles.

Speaker: And then we were in the desert and there, it's just non sequitur.

Speaker: There's so much stuff going on that doesn't follow any timeline of a reasonable business.

Speaker: So this is my thought process.

Speaker: I'm going to, this is, this is the gospel according to Josh.

Speaker: This is not a hundred percent.

Speaker: accurate, but considering the people that have reached out to us and saying, hey, you're pretty dead on with your description on what's going on at DeepRoot because they've seen behind the curtain, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this is what happened.

Speaker: Robert Mueller loved pinball.

Speaker: He said that emphatically on This Week in Pinball.

Speaker: He loves pinball.

Speaker: And he saw an opportunity to get into a market that seems like it is booming and it has room for growth.

Speaker: He has some money.

Speaker: So he figured, hey, I'm going to hire these designers that I love, Barry Ausler, Dennis Norman, anyone that's willing to accept the call that I send out.

Speaker: So he hires J-Pop, he hires these other designers.

Speaker: And he figures they've made pinball games.

Speaker: All I've got to do is throw money at this, right?

Speaker: I'm going to throw money here in Texas where I'm at.

Speaker: So first year's down.

Speaker: He's liking what he sees.

Speaker: He's starting to see product.

Speaker: And he's just kind of let the kids play off on their own, right?

Speaker: He goes back to work where he needs to be taking care of his law firm business.

Speaker: And the second year rolls around and...

Speaker: Maybe Pinbar popped up at this time, and he said, this is a great innovation.

Speaker: Let's keep going with this.

Speaker: He's getting starstruck by the fact that all these innovations are coming, and this is going to redefine Pinball, and we're going to make money just off the patents alone.

Speaker: And this is a guy that's a lawyer, so patents are his bread and butter.

Speaker: This is a fantastic idea.

Speaker: And he gets just more and more roped into this.

Speaker: Well, the problem is, is the public starts demanding, hey, we need to start seeing product.

Speaker: You're talking this up.

Speaker: You're excited about this.

Speaker: So obviously something's going right.

Speaker: We want to see as well.

Speaker: And so Robert starts visiting the factory more and more because deadlines are showing up, but nothing is being met.

Speaker: And he starts getting frustrated because you don't have a George Gomez.

Speaker: You don't have- You don't have a general.

Speaker: A David Fix.

Speaker: You have-

Speaker: And these kids, I keep calling them kids because this is, I relate this to a playground, right?

Speaker: Like dad's come home.

Speaker: Yeah, but I wouldn't say, okay, I would say that is undermining the professionality of these people.

Speaker: The people who hired, they actually are professionals on that level.

Speaker: And they are probably working at what they are told to do.

Speaker: But what he doesn't have is any sort of idea how to manufacture anything.

Speaker: So you don't have a manager to your workers.

Speaker: Let's put it that way.

Speaker: You show up, your workers aren't doing their job because they're being left to their own devices.

Speaker: I would say they're doing what you hired them to do.

Speaker: That's what I would say.

Speaker: But no one's making these games.

Speaker: He doesn't know how to, he hasn't transitioned from concept to manufacturing and that's the hardest part.

Speaker: So now he is at a point where the thing that he's throwing money at, he's running out of money.

Speaker: And so he's got to start making decisions of, if I want to keep this going, I've got to start making money somehow.

Speaker: And that's entered this year, the last six months.

Speaker: And that's the decision for the pre-orders.

Speaker: Even though you said,

Speaker: I'm never going to take pre-orders.

Speaker: The decision for all this other stuff that you just have said you'd never, ever do.

Speaker: And the problem is, is you figured out that you've dug the hole so deep, but there's the only person to blame is yourself.

Speaker: And I feel like this is, this could either be the closing chapter for deep root, or we're going to see it drawn out like highway pinball.

Speaker: And it just, it's sad.

Speaker: It's sad that a love for the hobby, because I guarantee that he loved this hobby three years ago.

Speaker: That's why he did this.

Speaker: And I think right now he just hates it.

Speaker: I bet he, I bet he doesn't go and look at a pinball machine anymore because it just brings so much angst from what has happened.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: I'll, I'll tell you what the next press releases.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: Due to COVID and the ongoing challenges of manufacturing machines, we have decided that we are going to close up shop and we are no longer going to pursue deep root pinball.

Speaker: We thank all the fans and all the fans

Speaker: all the support that we received over the years and the people who believed in us.

Speaker: Unfortunately, these were situations outside of our control.

Speaker: And so we, unfortunately we are a victim of COVID and this is going to, um, you know, stay safe, have fun at pinball, all the best Bobby two socks.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: If it's not that it is going to be an on running story of, um,

Speaker: of trying to buy time to pay back the customers that invest.

Speaker: No, this, this is a, this will be a, this will be a bankruptcy.

Speaker: This is we're getting closer to the event horizon in the black hole where everything just gets disillusioned and dismembered.

Speaker: It's just not going to happen.

Speaker: There's no chance.

Speaker: I think the other thing that really hurt them is Dennis Norman left before they took pre-orders as well.

Speaker: I think that was kind of the nail in the coffin.

Speaker: That was, as Dennis Creasel said on the pinball show, that was the canary in the cold.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So here's the question.

Speaker: How is this different than Highway Pinball?

Speaker: The only difference between this and Highway Pinball is Highway Pinball sold a game.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Everything else is exactly the same.

Speaker: Exactly.

Speaker: And it's going to be an interesting part of history.

Speaker: The problem is this is strike three for Papaduke, right?

Speaker: He is persona non grata.

Speaker: There's no chance.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I just don't see doing anything else.

Speaker: And ironically, do you know who comes out looking the best from all this?

Speaker: American Pinball.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: American Pinball because they saw the potential in John Papaduke and they said, okay, let's jump in.

Speaker: Let's resurrect this magic girl thing and let's make pinball.

Speaker: This sounds awesome.

Speaker: And they got in and they immediately saw what a dumpster fire Papa Duke was.

Speaker: And he said, no, you're out.

Speaker: We are going to retool this.

Speaker: And wait, how long did it take for them to get Houdini up?

Speaker: I thought it was only like five months, wasn't it?

Speaker: It was, it was pretty quick.

Speaker: As soon as Joe Balser was on, man, they, they knocked it out.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So if you want to see how it was done right, look at American Pinball.

Speaker: Whether or not you love the games, I think they're a different set of games.

Speaker: And it's fun.

Speaker: If you're looking for a different flavor, that's awesome.

Speaker: They have three very different games.

Speaker: And I think, and they've made three different games after they cut bait with, uh, with John Papa Duke.

Speaker: But ever since that, they, they are sinking like the Titanic right now.

Speaker: And guess what?

Speaker: They're playing near my God to thee with the four dudes in tuxedos.

Speaker: Yep.

Speaker: I just, man, it's, it's a sad story.

Speaker: It really, it's the, I just don't see anything else happening at this point.

Speaker: It's just, it's, it's done.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And that's the problem is that I, I really wanted it to work out, but I felt like I was the only one looking at the emperor's new clothes and saying he's naked.

Speaker: I think a lot of people in this industry has felt that there's just too many red flags.

Speaker: And there has been.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It's wishful thinking is what it is.

Speaker: And maybe, sadly, this is the closing chapter.

Speaker: It's done.

Speaker: But what's the future for pinball then?

Speaker: I think it's unaffected.

Speaker: I actually think it's unaffected.

Speaker: So you think that these companies that come in with starry eyes and stuff like that, because I know that we've talked about this in the past, like JJP did not have a great start.

Speaker: You know, American pinball was a decent start, but they tripped over some hurdles as well.

Speaker: You're always going to start.

Speaker: If you haven't watched things go bump in the night, the spooky pinball story, I have so much respect.

Speaker: Like Charlie, Emery, KT, Bug, your family is amazing.

Speaker: Awesome.

Speaker: If you haven't watched that documentary, it'll give you a better respect.

Speaker: I don't care what you think of their product.

Speaker: They did it right.

Speaker: But my point being is a lot of these companies that are permanent fixtures now in the pinball industry, the way that they started isn't defining how they're operating now, except for Spooky did a really good job and they limited themselves.

Speaker: If you're a pinball company, you're trying to get in.

Speaker: Like Haggis, you guys are doing a good job, I feel like.

Speaker: Your product is properly priced.

Speaker: You're trying to resolve issues that we're seeing in the pinball industry.

Speaker: My point being is this whole, we're going to churn out a thousand machines first year, or we're going to start producing like Stern.

Speaker: It's not going to happen.

Speaker: My recommendation is if we start seeing companies trying to make their way into the pinball industry here in the next few years, you're going to have to put your own machine, you're going to have to put your own money in and then hopefully sell a machine.

Speaker: And like I said, that's why I admire Charlie and Katie Emery from Spooky Pinball because they ate like box macaroni and cheese for that first year.

Speaker: That's all they had in their house.

Speaker: That's still awesome.

Speaker: Mac and cheese is awesome.

Speaker: It is.

Speaker: But like they remember being like, what are we having for dinner?

Speaker: Oh, never mind.

Speaker: We don't have to ask.

Speaker: And it's because they went on with a business style that suited them and it still suits them.

Speaker: They are truly boutique pinball.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: They sell at most right now is $750 for machine units.

Speaker: That's Rick and Morty.

Speaker: And so I feel like if you're going to want to come into this industry, you're not going to start off at stern levels.

Speaker: There is no way.

Speaker: And anyone out there that is listening to this, I promise you, there is no company that's going to come in at stern levels.

Speaker: If they tell you that, they are lying.

Speaker: That's a red flag.

Speaker: Stern is a, it's a manufacturing machine.

Speaker: It is a juggernaut that, that has been able to finally tune their process.

Speaker: And so they can fly through so many games a day.

Speaker: So, so I guess, I guess what I'm trying to say, and let's, let's wrap this up is just deeper.

Speaker: It's probably going to be gone before we know it.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: It was, it was quite the fryer cracker gave us a big boom.

Speaker: nothing ever else happened.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I, I'd like to say it was a fun ride, but after a while it just felt like it went to the weeds so fast.

Speaker: It was like a drag racer that, that popped the tire and immediately flew into the stands.

Speaker: Yeah, man, I really just kind of dragged on.

Speaker: I apologize.

Speaker: We kind of rambled.

Speaker: Yeah, we actually have a so we do have a big interview coming up where we're trying to nail down the logistics, but it's taking a little longer to find the right time to to record that.

Speaker: And so that's why we did this.

Speaker: Just recap.

Speaker: And we want to talk about different things.

Speaker: But anyway, it's hope you enjoyed it.

Speaker: We enjoy talking pinball.

Speaker: And if you have feedback, I really I I sincerely want to know what other people think about Deep Root.

Speaker: I sincerely want to know, like, am I am I am I just this evil troll out there?

Speaker: Because it seems that I I don't I don't like being this guy, but I just I have a hard time having any positive vibes for this company.

Speaker: Well, that's what sucks too.

Speaker: It's like, we we've tried to be positive.

Speaker: I mean, I don't think we've said really a negative thing about deep group up deep root.

Speaker: Deep root up until the, they took pre-orders and we had Zach and Dennis.

Speaker: You know, I, I think once we actually gave them the huge benefit of the doubt until they had the, the baby launch with the six, the deep six, and then they pulled the plug.

Speaker: And that's when I just said, okay, you're done.

Speaker: Yep.

Speaker: And so it's hard to be, it's hard to be positive with them.

Speaker: So also let us know back to the future.

Speaker: Is this something you're interested in?

Speaker: Again, we have no idea that seems to be the rumored title.

Speaker: But you know, let us know.

Speaker: And again, congratulations to all the Twippy winners and all the Twippy nominees.

Speaker: I mean, seriously, that says something right there too.

Speaker: So anyway, we hope to have something coming up here in the next, well, we will have something in the next two weeks, but we're hoping it'll be this awesome guest.

Speaker: So we'll, we'll let you know.

Speaker: Again, if you want to get ahold of us, we are loser kid pinball podcast.

Speaker: You can find us at facebook.com slash loser kid pinball.

Speaker: Same with Instagram and Twitter.

Speaker: If you want to get ahold of us the old fashioned way, loser kid pinball podcast at gmail.com or do me a favor.

Speaker: I know you're listening right now.

Speaker: If you're driving, pull over.

Speaker: If you're sitting at home, listening to us while you're trying to work,

Speaker: Sneak away onto your browser.

Speaker: Go to twitch.tv slash Loser Kid Pinball.

Speaker: Hit that follow button.

Speaker: I'm not on a super tight schedule at this point, but we're going to just have some fun with it.

Speaker: I'm not a fantastic pinball player, so you can harass me, whatever you want to do.

Speaker: We want to get to that 50 followers.

Speaker: I think we're at 20 right now, somewhere around there.

Speaker: So go on, hit follow.

Speaker: It helps us out.

Speaker: We're still going to give you great content here on podcasts, but we're still aiming for every two weeks.

Speaker: I know it's been, I mean, technically it was only two weeks because we did the pinball players podcast, but for us, it's been a little more than that.

Speaker: I do apologize, but we have some really fantastic interviews lined up.

Speaker: Um, there's one that Scott doesn't even know that I've been working on that I'm very excited about.

Speaker: I hope, I hope it comes to fruition.

Speaker: Um, just keep your fingers crossed guys and gals.

Speaker: So, all righty, Scott.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: See you in two weeks.

Speaker: Be excellent.

Speaker: Play lots of pinball.

Speaker: Shut up and sit down.