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You Make the Room: Overcoming Imposter Syndrome & the "Hamster Wheel" of Success
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Episode Summary
What happens when you stop trying to "fit in" and start owning the space you occupy? In this special live episode recorded at the WPPI Photography Conference, host Will Cadena brings together a powerhouse panel to discuss the mental grit required to survive the photography industry.
Elena S Blair joins fellow educators Jeff Carpenter and Chloe to peel back the curtain on "highlight reel" culture. From the 10-year journey to landing a major sponsorship to the crushing reality of "mom guilt" and pandemic-era burnout, this conversation is a masterclass in persistence, profit, and the power of a bulletproof mindset.
The Panelists
- Host: Will Cadena – NYC-based Commercial & Advertising Photographer.
- Guest: Elena S Blair – Lifestyle, Newborn, and School Photographer & Business Coach.
- Guest: Jeff Carpenter – Commercial Headshot Photographer & Lighting Educator.
- Guest: Chloe Ramirez – Portrait & Wedding Photographer and Lighting Educator.
5 Key Takeaways
- The "Dumbest Person" Advantage: Elena explains why seeking out rooms where you feel like an underqualified "imposter" is the fastest way to accelerate your growth.
- Strategy vs. Mindset: You can have the perfect business funnel, but if you don't believe you deserve the money, the strategy won't work. Elena breaks down why her students "come for the strategy but stay for the mindset."
- The 10-Year "Overnight" Success: Persistence isn't just a buzzword. Elena shares the reality of bugging Canon for a decade before finally landing her sponsorship.
- The "Hamster Wheel" & Burnout: The panel discusses the "toxic" side of the 4-hour workweek myth and how to embrace the seasonal "rhythm" of a photography business instead of fighting it.
- Permission to Succeed: Chloe highlights that most photographers already have the talent; they just need an expert to give them "permission" to simplify their gear and own their value.
Resources & Brands Mentioned
- WPPI (Wedding & Portrait Photographers International): The host photography conference.
- Adorama: Catch Will and Jeff’s live demos at the Adorama booth.
- Canon, Profoto, & Westcott: The gear that powers the panel’s professional work.
- Elena S Blair Education: Elena’s platform for school and family photography business education.
Thank you for listening. If you loved this episode follow and submit a 5 start review! See you on the next episode!
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Transcript
Introductions and Backgrounds
00:00:07
Speaker
Seth with the popcorn. I love the Seth. Yeah. All right. Perfect. All right. He's just like throwing popcorn us. What's going on, guys? My name is Will Kadina from New York, and I have the honor of sharing this stage with three amazing human beings. And for the people that don't know who they are, just i want you to just elaborate a little bit who you are, Jeff. ah What's going on? Sorry, I'm like facing this way, but I'm... I'm talking to y'all. I'm Jeff Carpenter. I'm a commercial headshot photographer based in Franklin, Tennessee. um
00:00:39
Speaker
I also do photo education, which is, I guess, why I'm here. That's how I met you. yeah but yeah, I teach a lot of lighting. I try and make it simple and not daunting, and that's kind of my thing. It's a lot of, i try and teach what I wish I had, you know, had access to when I was learning. So that's the very simple. If you want to learn more, I'll be at the Adorama booth in a little bit doing some stuff. So right three o'clock, come see me.
00:01:03
Speaker
And we got the beautiful Chloe over here. Chloe, let them know who you are, what you're about, and what are you doing? what What am I doing? It's like day four for me here at WPPI, so I'm definitely like drained. But I am a portrait and wedding photographer. I've been doing this for about 16 years. I'm also an educator, podcast host, and I love being here with you guys. so Nice. And of course, we have... i feel like you're always on the stage. What's going on with you? Please let them know who you are, what you're about.
00:01:30
Speaker
My name is Elena. I am a lifestyle family and newborn photographer and I have a school photography division of my business. I've been doing this for 16 years and I have an online education platform where I help family and newborn photographers and school photographers and i really love helping with the business side. So I help photographers learn how to create profitable, meaningful businesses. But we should chat later. no that's chat. I like helping people make money.
00:01:57
Speaker
Will, who are you? Oh, so I'm Will again from New York. I do corporate America commercial advertising work and ah and I'm here with you guys. I share knowledge and I'll be at the Adorama booth tomorrow as well.
Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
00:02:08
Speaker
woo uh yeah that's pretty much what i do so all right let's kick it off okay all right so why are we here today right the room that doesn't make you you make the room what is that about i'm sure you guys been into a room especially now if you look over to your left to the right or seeing us on stage you question like why are we here how did it get to that level have they had any doubts in life in any way possible how many guys have doubts in life
00:02:32
Speaker
Okay. Have you ever walked into a room be like, either a shoot, a client meeting, or on a sales, so you're like, can I get that money? Can I lock in this deal? Am I good enough? I feel like that all the time.
00:02:43
Speaker
What about you guys? I'm sure you guys have. Yeah, for sure. So my question is to you guys is, i have ah um i have about six questions for you guys. We're going to get really deep.
00:02:55
Speaker
So the question is, Let me try. How about this? Let me pick a really good one. actually Let me spice this up a little bit more. I'm going to make it really good. Okay. Do you remember the first time you were in a room that you truly felt like you didn't belong?
00:03:13
Speaker
And at that moment, what made you realize that you actually did? going to start off with Elena. Okay. At that moment, when did I realize that I did belong? Yeah. ah this is When you didn't belong. Let's start with when didn't belong first. Okay, both. Okay, so actually, i will say that my first time here at WPPI in 2012, I was like, what am I doing here? I know nothing. i am i felt I had been in business about two years. I didn't know photographers were doing what they were doing, and I felt like such an imposter. I was just like, and...
00:03:49
Speaker
at the same time, I'm, I'm not like the other girls. i am a family and newborn photographer and everyone is something much sexier, like a wedding photographer or commercial or corporate, all these big fun names. And I did not feel like I had a place here.
00:04:05
Speaker
And, uh, I am a very scrappy, however, and I'm a Leo. And so I was like, but you know what? I'm going to make myself a place here and I'm going to keep on showing up and, uh,
00:04:19
Speaker
insert myself in these environments where I feel very uncomfortable very i you know i love I actually love being the dumbest one in the room that's my favorite thing okay I love ah being the dumbest one in the room where I can just like gleam off of all of these intelligent experienced people but I sort of faked it till I made it to be honest so yeah but when there was that moment you're like you know I could do this I could do this You know, um ah when I went home from that, that was actually WPPI is like in my DNA now because it really had it really did change the trajectory of my career. I went home and I was like, I want that.
00:04:58
Speaker
And not just to be a successful photographer, but I want to be up on stages talking. I want to start teaching people. And so I just, ah that was like a big switch for me after that. And I fought my way up.
00:05:11
Speaker
And it was a hard fight. it takes It took a long time for me to get people to pay attention to me. How many how many years? It took me 10 years to get Canon to sponsor me. Literally 10. 10 years. So yeah if you're hearing this, literally 10. Canon, if you're here, thank you, finally. But I was like, pay attention to me. And it was a room. It was a party.
00:05:30
Speaker
i was I got invited to the right party at WPPI and met the right person and bugged him until he paid attention to me. So sometimes you have to you have to show up, you know, and you have to fight for what you want. But it's yours. You just have to go out and get it. So she was being persistent. That's what you were doing as well. Persistence, yeah. Consistency. I'm annoying.
00:05:52
Speaker
Jeff. what Yeah, well, I think with the like the education side, for kind of going that direction yeah things, is I kind of snuck in a back door, I think, a little bit. i i I never intended to do education. i My first time at WPPI, I came with a brand. So I was like doing booth demos with them. So I was like kind of integrated into it, which is kind of an interesting way to do it. But I you know i i started teaching out of a...
00:06:23
Speaker
like I basically posted behind the scenes on Instagram just for a reference to myself and a like so I could go back and remember how to do it. And then people apparently liked that more than my actual photos. So so that's kind of where that happened. And then I started teaching some one-on-one workshops and stuff with that. with but So I...
00:06:44
Speaker
I've never been, honestly, one to like self-doubt. I do get imposter syndrome a lot, and especially like when it comes to the business side of things. like I don't feel like I've ever... There's this like sense of, like have I made it? And I feel like if you get to that point, then you get complacent. But...
00:07:00
Speaker
i'm I'm very much a like, there's always something you can do better and there's people that are doing like, from like financially probably like much more successful and like run way more successful businesses. Do do I take care of my family and it's like, am I able to survive and live? Yes. Is there always room for growth? Absolutely. like Anytime there's like a business conversation, I'm like, I'm going to take a step back and just listen because I don't feel like I really bring a lot to the table. If I'm being completely honest, like if you want to ask me about lighting, and I'm like, heck yeah, I'll talk to you all day long about that. I think there's like a place where I'm like, I just don't, there's that imposter like syndrome. Even if like from the outside, I'm running a successful business, doing this, that, and the other, it's like there is that sense of
00:07:41
Speaker
Do I belong like in so many cases, especially, i mean, really with anybody. It's a so Chloe, do you have any imposter syndrome? Oh, my gosh. Yes. um And I struggle with it every single year. It's not something that just goes away. It's just a self-practice and self-talk and making sure I'm not. oh excuse me.
00:08:01
Speaker
and and feeding myself good thoughts. So ah when I started in the industry, I really focused on posing, posing couples, directing emotion, and I got very comfortable in it.
00:08:12
Speaker
And when Profoto approached me to do a lighting class live, I was like, I don't know that I can do this. I don't know that I'm built for this. I think I was just so in my head. I'm like, there's amazing educators that teach it so technically. And I'm just like, I popped the flash on and I try my best, you know? Guilty. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I realized like there is a market for people that are scared to use flash and yeah I could fill that role. And once i was on stage, I was like, wait, I know my stuff. and yeah I love this. Yeah. Yeah. yeah How many you guys are scared using flash?
Dealing with Burnout and Finding Renewal
00:08:44
Speaker
Somewhat. all right. We got a few. Okay.
00:08:46
Speaker
For the ones that knows how to use flash, how many years did it take you to to learn how to do that? Several years. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You shoot flash little bit here and there. little but I mean, no, I am. and Again, I'm not. I do a natural light for my my regular work. We do use strobes for our school photography, though. No. So, yes, but I am not a lighting expert. So see, like, that's what I can talk about business all day. i will get you to six figures in 12 months. You got me. Like that. Don't ask me about this. But yeah, lights. I'm like, i don't know. I don't I don't know why I know how to use my camera even.
00:09:17
Speaker
i was telling I was telling Rachel that i I taught myself and I couldn't tell you why i know how to You were just born into this life. I just figured it out. It's like Leo energy. Yeah, right? All right. So let let's spice it up a little bit more. oh All right.
00:09:31
Speaker
Let's get a little deeper, guys. Who wants to go deeper? Should we go deeper? Yes, we should go deeper. Okay. All right. Was there ever a moment in your career where the pressure almost made you walk away from ah everything? Everything.
00:09:44
Speaker
Everything. think think about it Think about it. Thankfully, no. I think, okay, continue your question. I feel like I'm getting ahead of myself. A little bit. it's all right. You're there. But what made you stay? All right. Let's start with you, Jeff.
00:09:58
Speaker
i don't There's never been a moment where I'm like, hang it up and never do it again. Because I love what I do, and I'm i'm like grateful every day that I get to do what I do on on both the like commercial side of mike of the business and then also the education and like It's really two different industries and in a way. Oh, yeah. When you become an educator, you're starting a second business Yeah, exactly. 100%. And that's like a whole other thing. But I digress. i So there's never been a time where i'm like oh, i I'm done with it. Let's hang it up and and move switch careers because that sounds like a lot of work. But there's, I think...
00:10:32
Speaker
We all probably deal with like burnout for sure. I mean, it's like when you get to a point where like I'm doing like the same thing and then then it's like you just got to like. So I try and integrate creative projects just to keep myself sane. But when you get busy with stuff, it's really hard to like take time to do things for yourself. yeah So you I think you can run into burnout really quickly and pretty easily. Yeah, like a mouse wheel. You keep going right and going and going. Absolutely, yeah. You're on the hamster wheel and just kind of like turning, and then you're like, where did time go? yeah but So, yeah. But thankfully, there's never been a time where I'm like, I'm done with it. But yeah if there was, then I feel like, you know. i Well, you're blessed. God.
00:11:14
Speaker
Chloe. Yeah, I feel the same way as Jeff. I there's been times when I've had burnout, yeah especially with weddings. Is anybody a wedding photographer here? Wedding photographers. All right We got a couple times. You guys want to quit a year around November of each year. I'm like, am I doing this next year? I don't know. I also am a portrait photographer. So that also feeds me. But yeah but really, it's that burnout.
00:11:36
Speaker
And then and you have a break. With wedding season, you have this nice, you know, three to four month break where you can just reset and go, wait, I love this. It helps pay the bills. It's great. And I don't know. I just I love the art of it. I'm like you guys are talking about business. I'm an artist through and through. And that's what keeps me coming back. I always want to keep learning. And when I have those days where I'm like, I don't want to show up to this shoot. It's usually because I'm getting bored in my work. So I need to do something to inspire myself, which is stretch and try something new like lighting. So what do you what did you do to disconnect from, let's say, yoga or workout? love music. Just putting on headphones or even just driving in the car and like turning up my music so, so loud. It's probably really bad for my ears, but it's fine. And just that's like that's my version of meditation. Nice.
00:12:26
Speaker
Back to you. and ah The concept of burnout is really, really funny to me because... ah this isn't I've never got to a point where I thought I was going to quit. That's definitely never happened for me. Like, i I love it so much. I love both sides so much. I love teaching. I love helping people have breakthroughs like that's so rewarding for me. um And on the the photographer side, I love the people that I get to photograph so much. So I've never wanted to quit.
00:12:55
Speaker
But I think that. There's a lot of super entrepreneurs out there talking about burnout, right? And I actually think it's a little toxic. They're like, you should only work four hours a week from the beach. Okay, that's a bunch of crap. It's very rare that that's going to happen, right? would be And I'm sorry. I mean, i i mean i know the most successful people I know of work.
00:13:15
Speaker
a lot really hard and not just in the photography industry. Right. So I think that the concept of burnout is, is an interesting one. And this is a job. So you are going to have times where you're just going to your job that will happen.
Mindset and Success in Photography
00:13:28
Speaker
That's normal. This is your job, but you do have to do things to stay inspired. And Chloe is so good at that. And it's for me, that could be on the business side, creating a different funnel. I get all excited about that. Or it could be a new style of photography, a new lens, a new camera. But, um,
00:13:44
Speaker
i so I really just lean into the rhythm of it. So i'm you know I'm a family photographer. Fall is absolutely insane for me. It's crazy. I do like 20 shoots a month for three months, right? That's just a lot.
00:13:56
Speaker
And I just know that when December comes, me and my team take two full weeks off. I recharge by being with my family, scheduling everything, not being on social media and really feel rejuvenated after that. And it's I just lean into that rhythm. It's OK to sometimes feel overwhelmed and busy just as long as you know that you're going to have that space to recoup and gain your strength again. You brought up the example you were helping out one of your students to help them go go through this breaking point. Can you just elaborate a little bit more on that? What breaking point?
00:14:31
Speaker
Like, you with the education, you help them out. Sometimes they just feel like they just want be done with it. Breakthroughs. Yeah. For example. Well, I teach about family and newborn and school photography to posing all of that. But I have a my thing that I teach the most is business. I have a ah group coaching program and the breakthroughs happen for so many reasons. I could go on and on. But the breakthroughs happen actually mostly when people learn how to work on their mindset.
00:15:00
Speaker
So um write that down. My side. There you go If you don't believe in yourself, no one will ever believe in you. And if you don't believe that this is going to work, it won't.
00:15:11
Speaker
So the helping people get that mindset stuff in order, limiting beliefs, money, mindset, all of that. That's when things really, really change. You can strategy your ass off. But if you don't have the right mindset, it won't work. So I love helping people with those breakthroughs. I always but i always say come for the strategy, leave for the leave with the mindset. when you Because i can I could give you all my strategy right now, but if you don't understand the inner workings of your brain, like it won't work. So I love those kind of breakthroughs. But then the next breakthrough obviously is the financial ones. when
00:15:44
Speaker
I will take a photographer who's been really struggling and it's usually systems and a pricing issue, you know, and get all of that implemented. And then they go from making 30,000 year to 100,000, 200,000. Some of students are making 200, 300,000 a more. have a figure photographer in one of my groups.
00:16:03
Speaker
That is so empowering because, guys, we need money to live, right? that this is You do not need to be a starving artist. like We have to be able to support our families. that We have to be able to pay the bills. you know It doesn't feel good not to be able to do that. So helping people with those breakthroughs is like so rewarding. So, Jeff, you teach a lot as well. Do you feel the same thing with other students? they feel like they just want to be done because they can't understand lighting? Yeah.
00:16:29
Speaker
I don't know. I don't like i don't feel like there is, like when you come to a conferences like this, workshops and anything, there's just this energy and everybody is generally in a very positive mindset, I think, when they come to these things. yeah you know i kind of like When you leave, I feel like it's like the church camp high kind of thing. you know and you ready to go like you're really You're inspired. and you you know You have this this mentality of like wanting to implement the strategies or the or the you know the techniques that you learn. So I think, like we thankfully get to deal with people because I don't do a lot of like I mean I don't do a ton of one-on-one coaching and stuff like that so it's like mastermind type stuff yeah usually it's kind of in a group setting or it's ah you know something like this where people have like again I'm dealing with people that have a really positive attitude about it but those lighting breakthroughs are huge yeah like when somebody's not nailing lighting and then they learn lighting like that's to change everything and then there's the thing where it's like people are like oh I didn't think about that one thing and then you do see the light bulb moment yeah and that's The whole body structure changes. Or when a student will show you, like, look what my work looks like now yeah because of this thing that you taught me. yeah That's so rewarding because you're like, wow, okay. I helped you with that. Yeah, and I love kind of hearing, like, oh, I like saw this one.
00:17:43
Speaker
I'll get messages and be like, hey, I like saw this YouTube video you did 10 years ago. And I was like, oh, I thought that was terrible. so and And I was like, oh, my gosh, i' should probably go look at that. Yeah. Chloe, how do you feel about that for your students? and The light bulb moment is the most rewarding thing. So I teach usually beginner flash, like off camera or even like little adjustments you can make for your posing so that it feels more natural and more lived in. And it's so funny because people kind of already know.
00:18:12
Speaker
You just have to give them permission to succeed. And you put your stamp of approval and they're like, wait, it's that simple. You're telling me that after 16 years it's this? I'm like, yes. yeah I'm not trying to make it more complicated for you. You already have everything you need to know. And it's usually for flash. I'm sure you get this a lot too. It's the settings are different when you use flash.
Struggles, Growth, and Work-Life Balance
00:18:32
Speaker
Aperture effects, you know.
00:18:33
Speaker
the the flash power. always a little dance. The little things. You move one thing, another thing's going to change. You just have to switch your thinking. It's different than natural light. so And when you see that light bulb moment go off, I'm like, they're going have fun now. They don't need to know everything that I teach. yeah They just need to know certain components and then they can just run with it. Yeah.
00:18:53
Speaker
One thing I love what you just said, Chloe, is you give yourself permission or give them permission, which I think is important. Like, how many guys have... I'm sure you guys, everyone gets burnt out. How many times have you guys booked yourself as a client?
00:19:05
Speaker
Take an hour for the day. Take a week on vacation. Who who has done that recently? I just started doing it recently. And it's been a game changer. What do you mean when you say that? We're confused over here. This side of the couch is... yeah I'm a little lax. You mean whiting out your calendar? Yeah. Yeah. Book yourself... Because we're always, like you said, we're on the mousetrap. We always keep going and going, but we never take time for ourselves. We never take a vacation. So what I've been doing a few times a year, I book myself as a client. I'll go into my CRM, put my information in, lock myself out completely, and that's it. And I'm free for that week.
00:19:39
Speaker
And I get to go and travel. I've never like that. Yeah, that's pretty interesting. I've taken vacations. Are you talking about vacations? Because we're yeah I like that, though. Because I love what I do. We all love what to do. But the thing is, and we keep going and going and going. And like, we forget. Yeah. And next year you get burnt out, then then it hinders your business, your family. Yeah.
00:19:55
Speaker
So that's what I've been doing for myself but maybe in the last maybe year and a half. And it's been a game changer. I know. That's interesting. I've never done it like that. But we definitely a couple times a year. i mean, I close down and I give my team time off, too, because if I'm off and they're working, then they're still messaging me. Correct. Yeah. So sometimes I'm like, guys, we're not curing cancer here. Like we can deal with this in two weeks. I promise. Like it's going be fine. there They work harder than me sometimes. But um we definitely do that.
00:20:20
Speaker
full Full closure for a couple weeks at a time. It's like so good for the people. Love that. All right. So success is easy to celebrate. We also obviously like social media reels. We're showcasing all the highlight reels. We're doing everything.
00:20:33
Speaker
But I'm curious to know for the other side, what part of who you are today was built during the season when nobody was applauding you? No one was there supporting you in that way. No one saw you were crying and being upset and whining.
00:20:51
Speaker
When was that for you guys? When? When was it? I'm buffering, so ask somebody else. I know, it's a lot, it's real. I know it's happened. It's a lot. So again, what part, like, when did this happen? What happened during that time?
00:21:09
Speaker
You know, what were you doing? Like, building your business. The seven figures. Obviously, you first it's six figures, but we have to step it up. Seven figures as well. so Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:19
Speaker
I mean, okay. I don't know if i understand that question completely, but what, so when, what was going on behind the scenes when it wasn't like a big win moment? correct. Thank you. Thank you. By the way, guys, I was a special letter from kindergarten to college. I have an IEP. I'm a little special, so. I have dyslexia and ADHD. So, hey, learning differences. Everyone with disabilities, everyone else? Yeah. Woo. ADHD. We got them all over here.
00:21:42
Speaker
i ah So, um so much. Yeah. Right. I mean, I could I feel like the highlight reel is the highlight reel. Right. Like there were so many times i if we're going to talk about the photography side in the beginning.
00:21:57
Speaker
When I was making it look like I was way busier than I actually was, I was doing so many things for free, photographing every family I could get my hands on for free or like $100, right? And that was a hard. I had two little babies at home and um you know was probably...
00:22:16
Speaker
Lacking in that area of my life, not really feeling like I was being a great mom. So lots of guilt when I was building my photography business as far as that goes, like really wondering, like, am I doing the right thing here? This isn't making any money. Why am I doing this? You know, and so but then it paid off.
00:22:30
Speaker
Because I fake yeah faking it till you make it. if There's some truth there. Like I just kept showing my work and learned about marketing so that just that I think that's the part that people don't see as a from a mom standpoint is the guilt when you're building your business because you do have to spend a lot of time doing it and it takes time before it's like paying off.
00:22:51
Speaker
So that that was that would be what the part that I would say for that is definitely it was the the beginning stages. I mean, they were tough, you know. Can I interject into this? I have like a a different perspective being a dad. yeah So it's, but it's so, and I kind of went the opposite direction where I was like really busy. and then we had our daughter and then I took a major step back from my business and, and did like, I don't want to say the stay at home dad. Cause like we're both, it was during COVID. So everybody was home. yeah But I, I like kind of step back from my business a lot. And then,
00:23:29
Speaker
you get to the point where it's like, I wasn't, I wasn't broadcasting my wins and I wasn't like telling people that I was doing these things. And like people they essentially just like forgot that I existed. yeah And about a year ago I had to almost start my business over again and be like, Hey, like I'm still here. I'm still doing this. You know, and it was just like an interesting like perspective of, of like,
00:23:53
Speaker
I took a major step back and it was kind of like I had the excuses to do it. And I'm not saying it was the right thing to do, but it was like, oh, COVID. And then it was like, I've got a kid at home. That was easy. It was like I did give in to the excuses. was still working. It's not like I stopped working, but I wasn't advertising that I was doing all this stuff and I wasn't posting to social media as much and I wasn't around where people were like, are you still shooting? And I was like, if you're asking me that question, I should probably to change something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it was it was very much like a wake up moment, like kind of a wake up call to be like, I really do need to focus on that stuff, because if people don't see you and see your face, if you're not going networking events, if you're not posting on social media and doing that stuff, then like they're just going to move on to the next one.
00:24:40
Speaker
like from a client perspective and from even even like workshop attendees you know they're like if you're not around then no one's gonna buy your ticket if they're just like oh i haven't seen you do anything for two years you know so it's kind of staying relevant and it's just an interesting you know kind of take that i i kind of dealt with personally of of of taking a major step back. I think like from like mental health standpoint, I think it was good. Yeah. You got to recharge know, and it's so, and kind of going back to your like, what do I do to do that? Like I have to have like a house project or something every once in a while. I had an old truck. I sold it, but I would like do mechanic work in my driveway just like to break away and do something different, you know? So it's like, I think having that like extracurricular passion project is good too, you know? But yeah,
00:25:29
Speaker
And Chloe? Can you repeat the question? Yeah, it was like a low phone. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I just i just lost it over here. But pretty much just going down to what were you doing when? Obviously, it's easy to celebrate social media, highlight reels during the day of the week. But for you, what was the back end? What was your chokehold? What were you Okay, so like I said, i very much view myself as an artist first and I use that as a way to hide behind my work and not show up. So when I started down the education track and it was sort of similar to Jeff, the pandemic hit.
00:26:05
Speaker
And I couldn't make work. I wasn't allowed to. I was supposed to be at home and I was a single mom of three kids and I started to get panicked and and I had nothing to fall back on other than the previous work that I had done. And I was depressed, guys. I'm going to be so for real. It was not burnout. It was like, am I going to need to go drive for Uber? Like, I don't know. like yeah I built my whole entire career for the last 16 years on art.
00:26:32
Speaker
And, you know, once the world started opening up again and it got our new normal, it's very different still. I just realized, like, wait, if I want to educate, I actually need to show my face. No one is going to know who I am. And there is something so strange about truly being vulnerable enough to be seen as the artist as well.
00:26:54
Speaker
And once you just start practicing, it feels weird at first, but once you start showing up on camera, talking, it just gets easier. And I'm sure you guys have felt the same way. It's it's very strange. Yeah, absolutely. Like for me, in the last almost two years, I was going through chaos at home.
00:27:12
Speaker
Between family passing, between divorce, between so much you know property and finding out debt from a different part a different family member, it was a lot.
00:27:23
Speaker
So, you know, finding that ground, getting that foundation all over. I just give you a hug real quick. No, but honestly, I'm really happy now where I'm at because if I couldn't conquer that, I wouldn't be where I'm at today. So sometimes we've got to go through the pitfalls to really get to where we are today. Absolutely. So, no, commend you guys for that. There's always so going behind the scenes. There's always so much going on behind the scenes. Everyone's got their own story and struggle.
00:27:47
Speaker
Yeah, especially when people are walking around. you never know. You just never know. yeah All right, so at what point in your journey did you stop trying to prove yourself? You start owning the value what you bring to the room.
00:28:02
Speaker
Last year. Really? I'm serious. Last year. Yeah? Yeah, I struggled with imposter syndrome like my entire life. And I was like, wait, I'm more comfortable when I don't care.
00:28:13
Speaker
i attract the right people when I don't care. And I mean, clients, education. and when you have that energy and you just unapologetically put it out there, the universe rewards you. And I know that sounds a little woo-woo, but it works. Yeah.
00:28:26
Speaker
No, but since I met you, you've always been downturned. When I met you guys, I'm like, oh my God, i love their vibe. I love who they are. We did. We all fell in love. yeah you're like you I'm like, you're a badass. I love you. You're a chill guy, which is great. So, Jeff, let's go back to you regarding that question. Repeat the question again. Sorry. I swear I was paying attention. No, no, no.
00:28:44
Speaker
Pretty much, like when did you start proving yourself? like when when did you When you were like, you know what, i just don't care anymore. like Let me just do me.
Handling Criticism and Staying True
00:28:50
Speaker
I think I always still care. it's yeah I like to think I don't, but realistically, like there's this little piece of your brain that's like always trying to prove something. Something, yeah. you know And whether it's it may not be the same audience. It might be proving something to somebody else. you know It might be proving something to a family member that didn't think you could make it. Or you know it's something like that. but it's a i think I went into, like at least from the education side of things, like very much...
00:29:19
Speaker
I didn't really, I don't want to say I didn't care from the start, but it was like, it was very much a, like I went, i was like, what do I have to lose? yeah you know, like I had enough positive reinforcement that I think it gave me that confidence just to go out and do things. Um,
00:29:35
Speaker
you know and And people will be like, oh, I love this photo. And I'm like, i was like it's okay. you know It's fine. yeah you know I think I'm my own worst critic when it comes to stuff like that. And yeah and I think that's a big thing when it comes to not sharing things is because i don't like it and i'm like But like a client might be like, that's the best photo that anybody's ever taken of me. And I was like, yeah, but it's like, this could be better and this could be better. and you know's like So like I'm sitting here doubting myself. Yes. And and that that is an excuse for me not to post that on LinkedIn to then get clients or something like that. And and I'm like doing myself a disservice of like not just like putting it out there. you know I think I need to start creating my like commercial work more like art and be like, people just want to see it. Yeah. than than than me being like
00:30:21
Speaker
Well, it's fine, but I can nitpick it to death and that's why I'm not going to show anybody. It's so true. So, you know. yeah I'm going to chime in on this. So when I started judging for WPPI when it was before it became icons, same thing. I had the same issue. It was like, I don't know what to share. I don't know what to post anymore. I'm overthinking things. My peers are going to like, you shouldn't be posting that. You shouldn't be shooting should not be charging that. And it it went on for like a good solid a year. I stopped posting. yeah So, but same thing It like, I don't know where I just popped. I'm like, you know, who cares? I know I'm good at what I do. I'm getting paid very well for what I do. So when I share it.
00:30:57
Speaker
So what about you? I was going to say any day now, you know? i mean, I think i i i think that i I don't know if there was a time, um a one-moment situation for that. I definitely...
00:31:14
Speaker
ah really felt like and I had to sort of just say I don't care. i don't care that people are going to constantly tell me that I'm doing it wrong because I definitely do it different. You know, I don't have a studio. I don't use lights for my work. I'm all on location. I know. i know. We know some lighting teachers. I'm all on location. um And, you know, I'm obsessed with it, though. I'm obsessed with the way that I do it. And I have... a huge client base. And, um, as an artist, I'm, I know that what I'm doing matters. And so I just keep going. Um, and so I don't know what the, what, I don't know what the moment was for that, but I definitely just decided like, well, this is how I'm going to do it. And then when I decided to become an an educator, it was hard to break into the space because I don't do things like other people do. i have my own way of doing it. And I had to
00:32:10
Speaker
you know, fight to get on these stages. But I, I think a real moment for me that where I felt validated, i don't know if that's really what you're asking, but, um, was when I finally got to to teach on creative live.
00:32:22
Speaker
RIP. I know that's not a thing anymore, it but actually is coming back. I heard, I know i there's a lot of lore going on about that right now. So, but that was like a secret, a crazy moment for me. that was it And it was Arlene. I and interviewed Arlene on this stage because she was the one that finally believed in me.
00:32:42
Speaker
And then I was like, oh, no, what did I just do? am I seriously going to be on Creative Live? I don't even know what I'm doing. Like, I literally don't know what I'm talking about. i I had never felt more imposter syndrome in my life. It was the most terrifying thing I've ever done. And I did it. And it was amazing.
00:33:01
Speaker
so hard, and so much prep. is that you know If you anyone who has ever watched a Creative Live class they're like six hours long. And ah after I did that and I i watched it, i was like, oh wait, I do know what I'm doing. yeah you know i do know what I'm doing. I can help people with this. And I feel like that was a very pivotal pivotal moment in my career as a speaker and an educator because i just sort of said, i know that I'm going to get people in the comments telling me I'm
Gender Dynamics and Community Support
00:33:27
Speaker
doing this wrong. and criticizing the way I run my business and criticizing the way I work with families and all of the things that i don't use lights, that I don't have a studio, you know, we could go on and on.
00:33:36
Speaker
And I was like, I'm not going to say F it, but I was like, whatever, I'm just going to keep on going and i'm going to go hard in that direction and I'm just going to believe in myself. Well, think anytime you put yourself out there, that opens yourself up to criticism. Absolutely, And it opens yourself up to people that are going to tell you're doing something wrong. Every time. And, like, realistically, like it's usually like, it works for you, like, who cares, you know? And that kind of comes back to the...
00:34:01
Speaker
I turn my trolls into content now too. When I get like a, yeah you do I love to, when I get a bad comment, I get them all the time. by the way It's usually a guy. and when I get a bad comment or something, or somebody tells me, you know, why aren't you doing like this? Or I can't believe you're doing like that. I will be like, well, let me show you the numbers. Let me show you the results. Let me show you how this is working for me. So I just take it and try to let it roll off my back.
00:34:25
Speaker
Chloe, what was something that you wish someone told you ah warned you about this industry before you got into it? So when I joined this beautiful industry, it was very much a man's world. It's a man's world. It still is. It still is sometimes. Ladies, take over. And I had a hard time finding my footing in the education industry. And there was few different companies that really took a chance on me.
00:34:52
Speaker
And usually by other women going, no, I'm here at this level. Let me pull you up with me. And so for me, I want to do that for women as much as possible. I've got my podcast, Hot Girls Photograph Love, and where I just interview other women photographers because it was such a thing for me. It was hard to break into the industry and it was hard to know that like, you know, you teach lighting probably different than I teach lighting. i actually don't know. Maybe we teach it the same. But yeah I felt like, okay, I had to be this certain way to fit in this box, and I'm not that way, so maybe I'm not good enough to be here. Turns out we all are. We all should be here. There's a place for everyone at this table. Everyone. The water is warm. Jump in.
00:35:32
Speaker
Jeff. Go. Go. Ask the question again? Yeah, please. Sorry. I have really a short attention span. It's the ADHD. Apparently all of us do. I get it. We all do. We're guilty. We could be like an ADHD medication app. It's the same thing where I'm like, I'm really bad at people's names because I'm like trying to listen to what you're saying.
00:35:51
Speaker
and in this case, I'm listening to what you're saying. So I don't remember the question. already forgot it. what what would you want? And so wanted to warn you about before you get into this industry.
00:36:03
Speaker
It doesn't have to be just educational. Yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah um I don't know. like I got into photography like very on accident. like It's the same with how I got into the education side of it. it's like I guess things just happen to me and it's all cool. But um I have a degree in audio production and I never worked a day of my life with that. I was working at a restaurant and I was making probably like $25,000 a year working double shifts, making $200 a day kind of thing. And I took photography class graduate like as a prereq to graduate college.
00:36:36
Speaker
And I was like, actually really like it. But my brain was like, I just spent all this money on this degree. But like, yeah also, let's work in a restaurant for some reason. no no, like no issue with that. But it was just like it wasn't for me. And i was like, well, I have a camera. I am making this amount of money.
00:36:53
Speaker
I like I'm just going to go. I responded like a Craigslist ad. that was just, it needed, it was event photography for 50 bucks and free beer for a St. Paddy's event. I responded, never done it before. question I was just like, and I was like, well, let me, I'll, I'll see, see what it is. And he's like, oh, we, we have that filled, but I can do, what do you do photo boosts? And he's like, it's 250 bucks. You also still get free beer. and And, but I was like, and I was like, oh yeah, like I could totally do that. um god So I don't know if there's like a thing cause like i
00:37:26
Speaker
I love this industry and there's not something where I'm like, oh, like, you know, we don't like like there's something about it that's kind of like a you know dark cloud hanging over it. yeah But i don't know, like I didn't I didn't know what I was getting myself into just in general. But it was it was just like a whirlwind from that because then I was like, I did everything because I met people through those events and they're like, do you do weddings? I'm like, yeah. Do you do headshots? Of course I do. Do you do this? And I did everything until I was like, oh, I don't like weddings. And i mean, I like weddings. I just don't like photographing them. and yeah, I just kind of like did a little bit of everything until I figured it out. So I kind of i guess I kind of like did that the hard way. I didn't like go in being like, oh I want to be a portrait photographer. yeah i got there eventually. It just took some trial and error. Yeah.
00:38:18
Speaker
Wait, what do I wish I knew? so Yeah, so if someone had to warn you. like yeah Sorry, I didn't actually answer his question at all. We're going to finish this up real quick because we have one more to go. yeah So i there was there was no... Same for me. what I became a photographer because I was photographing my son and became obsessed and was like, oh, I think I can make this into a business. Knew zero photographers, like negative. Didn't know anyone who was a photographer.
00:38:41
Speaker
And... um What I wish that I knew was that i want to piggyback off what you said. What I wish that I knew was how amazing this industry is.
00:38:53
Speaker
it is. I am obsessed. Like i am i am on a high right now from being here with all with everyone, like all of the parties and meetups and and and the full classes like, oh, it's amazing. And so what I wish I knew was that I should seek out community sooner. The sooner the better. It took me two full years before I knew there were other photographers that were making money. Like I didn't know how this was working, right? yeah Literally two years. I was a nurse at the time, so I was kind of, and had a bunch of kids, or two kids, but they were very little, so i was, you know, drowning with life. And when I when i had discovered community,
00:39:29
Speaker
Everything changed for me. Everything. Game changer. Everything in my business changed. Everything in my my work got better. My business got better. My life got better because I met my best friends. I mean, Chloe have been friends for like 15 years now. And um so that was if you're listening to this and you're like just that you've stumbled upon this podcast because you're searching for knowledge. Like.
00:39:50
Speaker
Find community. There is a welcoming photography community for you. And if you find one that's not welcoming, peace out because there's a better one. But that's what I would say. Yeah, we're better together. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. As you guys know, i'm very big into connecting with people, community. You know. No, right? The man.
00:40:10
Speaker
So let's finish this up. We have literally five minutes before Sarah gets us off the stage. Whatever, Sarah. All Let's close with this. What is one truth about building a career that took you years to learn?
00:40:23
Speaker
Years to learn. But in someone sitting for, I want this for like someone sitting in the audience or listening to this podcast. What would the be the advice for that? for that Again, one truth about building the career that took you years to learn. Okay. What is a hidden gem? Okay, I have this. You got this. So like Jeff, I was i was a yes girl. i was like, yeah, I'll photograph this, I'll photograph that. And I quickly found out that I didn't like to do certain things. And then I was still posting very safe portraits or very safe wedding work. And then all of a sudden I was like, I don't like this work. Why am I doing this? Because I'm only going to attract those people, right? Because I'm showing them that. I know what I'm capable of and I know the cool photos that I'm not posting first on the carousel, right? What if you switched to that?
00:41:12
Speaker
What if you posted that a little bit more edgy or whatever it is for your work? For me, that's a little more edgy, different lighting, something cool. Guess what happens? You repel the people that aren't going to want that. Oh, that's too much for me. I don't i just need a basic photographer. or You can post the artistic stuff and have people go, oh, I can only go to Chloe because she takes this experience and does it this way. She thinks differently. I'm not to have the same photos as everyone. So post the weird work. Everyone here is artistic, right? Think of your inner child and go, what would she be proud of? What would he be proud of?
00:41:46
Speaker
Jeff, we got a one minute. Go. Yeah, yeah. I think like to piggyback off that same thing, kind of in the opposite direction. If you have a ideal client and you want to do work that is like that,
00:41:57
Speaker
post work that is like that. Exactly. If you want to shoot for Vans shoes or something like that, don't have a bunch of beauty photography on your thing because that is not... like you know So it's kind of... If you want to attract a client, have a portfolio that reflects that, I think. it It's one thing that like it took me way too long to learn. Yeah. Elena?
00:42:16
Speaker
I would say this is something that I tell my students all the time and it took me years to to learn this, that we're so obsessed as photographers with how our work looks and i especially in the beginning, I'm like, am I light and airy? Am I going to buy these presets? Am I going use this lighting? Am I going to style my clients? Blah, blah, blah, all that stuff, right? if you start instead focusing on how you want your work to feel everything will change and it's this is kind of going along exactly what they said because then you start attracting people who want you to make them feel something and i always tell my students this too that my clients love their photos before they've seen them because we had a moment you know anybody can take a technically perfect photo exactly So thinking about if three emotions that you want to evoke with your work. Like my work is like really messy. I'm a family photographer.
00:43:08
Speaker
um My family work is actually very moody, very romantic. Like just go with those emotions that mean something to you and you will connect to the right people. Agreed. For me personally, it's about the experience, connecting with people, just really tapping into their emotions and who they are as an individual. Right. So closing, guys, thank you so much for taking a time. For you guys out there, please look to your left, to your right, talk to each other, connect to each other, and go over through the good times and the bad times.
00:43:38
Speaker
All right? And again, guys, thank you for joining the panel beyond. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having us. It's an honor. So again, guys, thank you. Enjoy WPPI, and we'll see you guys next year. Yes? yeah Yes? All right.
00:43:52
Speaker
And come see me at 3 o'clock at our own booth. I know if you can cut this part out, but come see me.
00:44:04
Speaker
ah got roll up