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From the Jungles of Belize: Beware the Duende! - Pseudo 154
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While some people like Bigfoot and others prefer a good helping of Loch Ness Monster or Chupacabra, the Belizean choice is the Duende. Join me as we track down this mischievous forest creature, and don’t forget to hide your thumbs!
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- For rough transcripts of this episode go to https://www.archpodnet.com/pseudo/154
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Transcript
Introduction to Pseudo-Archaeology and the Duende
00:00:00
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. You are now entering the pseudo-archaeology podcast, a show that uncovers what's fact, what's fake, and what's fun in the crazy world of pseudo-archaeology.
00:00:23
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the pseudo-archaeology podcast, episode 154. I'm your host, Dr. Andrew Kinkella, and tonight, the Duende. Mysterious forest creatures and they're coming for you.
00:00:49
Speaker
All right. So what's going on? What's going down? It's nice to be back. It's a new year.
Personal Reflections on Southern California Fires
00:00:54
Speaker
I'm recording this, I believe. What are we January 12th? Just barely because my friends, I'm doing this at like one in the morning, which is very me. And I, I just, I love the vibe of doing this late, late at night, you know, that kind of wheels of steel rolling to the midnight hour. I just dig it. You know, I, I think it adds that.
00:01:19
Speaker
feeling of mystery. I always envision you guys listening to this, you know, like maybe in your car and you're just driving down the lonely highway. You know, I love, I just, that's what I want. Just if you could do that for me, that would be great.
00:01:34
Speaker
And before I get into tonight's story on the Dwinday, I do want to say that I'm here in Southern California, right? I teach at Moore Park College, which is in of course, Moore parking, California, and I live in Thousand Oaks. And that's in the Conahoe Valley. And we are reasonably close to a lot of the big fires that have just happened. And as of this recording or not out yet, this week is going to have a bunch of new like wind events they call it, which is just basically, it gets really windy and it is really anxiety making. I do have to say I've been on my toes. I've been on edge really like the last week or more. And so far we've been lucky here, but
00:02:28
Speaker
This area where I live is classically known for often getting the brunt of some of these, you know, massive fires. So we have dodged the bullet. And I also have to say. When I heard that Pacific Palisades had been so but brutally damaged by the fires, it really bummed me out. I used to work in Pacific Palisades.
00:02:53
Speaker
in CRM archeology, right? So the other podcast I'm a part of is the CRM podcast. And the main CRM firm that I worked for, it was Greenwood and Associates out of Bobby Greenwood's house. Bobby is no longer with us. She was an older woman even when I worked with her years ago.
00:03:14
Speaker
but her house was in Pacific Palisades. So I spent a decent of time there in that community. It really saddens me what's, what's happened there. So I might talk about that, you know, in another podcast or something, my life and times in Pacific Palisades, but it really kind of adds a somber note to the proceedings, you know, and I will say that most of us in Southern California are still on edge because the fires at this point are kind of sort of mostly under control, but the week coming up really has the makings of more fire possibilities. And it's just, it's really tough. So many of us have been driving around with our stuff in our cars. Like I still have
00:04:02
Speaker
like most of my you know important documents and that kind of stuff in the in the back of my super sweet Azuzu Trooper, my archaeology automobile, Azuzu Trooper Mark I. I should probably do that in another podcast too. but I don't know, man, I'm getting pretty, I'm getting pretty frazzled. So I was thinking for tonight, man, I gotta get, I gotta to get my mind off this, but it's, it's funny while trying to get my mind off of it. I'm like, I just thought about the past.
Exploring the Folklore of the Duende
00:04:36
Speaker
You know, I just, I was sort of thinking about my life and times in archeology.
00:04:40
Speaker
And I thought about in terms of pseudo archaeology, this mythology, I guess you'd call it, of the Duende. And the short answer is the Duende are they're kind of like.
00:05:00
Speaker
A jungle leprechaun. That's what they're like. So in your mind, if you picture kind of a smaller sort of you think dwarf like or elf like or, you know, leprechaun, pick your poison, that kind of trickster figure that's in so much mythology, right? And in Belize in Central America, of course, they have the Duende. Now, I learned about the Duende in backwards fashion is as so classic in terms of how I've learned so many things in my life. I learned about the Duende from the local Belizean guys who we would work with on the archaeology project.
00:05:47
Speaker
And so I got it from them first. And it was really many years later that I actually looked it up. You know, like what does sort of the academe have to say about the Duende, right? And then that was interesting in its own way, sort of doing the book learning aspect of the Duende last.
00:06:09
Speaker
and enlightening too, because because I had heard these stories in a very anthropological manner, in a very just sort of local community manner. And what I'd heard is kind of different, a little different.
00:06:23
Speaker
bits and pieces a little different than what is kind of reported. Like if you look up, what is it? Do one day on a Wikipedia page or, or that kind of thing. It's, I would call it like mostly, right? most Mostly on topic in terms of what like the local deletions would say about twin days. But there's aspects of that. Just feel a little, a little different for me. And my,
00:06:47
Speaker
stories will revolve around my times with Teo, a man named Teo Williams. And Teo worked with us on the LPLR project in Belize in the 1990s. So this is another one of those stories, my friends, where we're going back. We're going back in time. man Teo had worked with Annabelle Ford, who runs the LPR project since the 80s. I want to say his first year was 1984 or something, which was like Annabelle's first year at working at the at the major side of LPR.
00:07:22
Speaker
very first time. This is going to be one of the first people that she hired onto the LPLR crew. And so as the years went by, Teo became kind of a mainstay, you know, this local Belizean guy who would work with us and people like Teo were indispensable, of course, in the jungle because they would see the snake before you, you know, they knew how to live in the jungle. They would teach the students ah So many important things like just how to survive day to day in the jungle, how to always make sure you were in the shade, you know, you there's little things like that that if you don't know any better, you're going to tie yourself out in the jungle. You're going to stand in the sun too much, which is like really foolish. How to cut trails without expending too much energy. So much of being in the jungle.
00:08:11
Speaker
is about kind of the ebb and flow of your own energy in your body and not using too much for any one thing, kind of keeping it cool throughout the day. But Teo though was a fantastic storyteller and really I think very memorable for the students. And and I worked with Teo the My first two years in Belize, which is 1993 and 1996, and I'm in my young 20s. And I thought Teo was like this older wise man, and he was probably 41 at the time, right? he had He had a bunch of kids. He was sort of, you know, he was like a father, you know, figure at that time.
00:08:51
Speaker
And I ended up working was kind of with Teo day to day a lot. And I would like listen to his, I even ended up spending an evening and spending the night at his house one night. He took me to see the local witch doctor, which is its own story in itself. You guys, when I think back to it, I can't believe it happened to me. Definitely another podcast. I think I'll have to do on, you know, Andrew Kinkela meets the witch doctor of Belize. That was a trip and a half. But.
00:09:21
Speaker
I would always listen to Teo's stories and try and take him in and try and kind of remember him. Sometimes I even make notes to myself, you know, to try and remember. And Teo had a lot to say about the Duende, the various stories of this forest creature, this trickster forest creature and what this creature would do and how to protect yourself.
Teo Williams and Creole Storytelling
00:09:45
Speaker
You know, if the if you came upon this creature, what to do,
00:09:50
Speaker
what this creature had done in the past and, you know, how to how which doctors could maybe help if certain things happened because of this this forest creature. I wasn't the only one who found Teo stories like really interesting and dynamic and actually a handful of years after I left the or I think it was.
00:10:15
Speaker
Maybe even in 1994 or five, Annabelle actually, along with a student, Alison Anderson Davies put together a little book, this little tiny book called Teo's Way. It's really almost just a, like a pamphlet, but like one of those books that has like 20 pages in it. And it's just sort of simply folded together. You know, very small font, but.
00:10:40
Speaker
It's just a series of of Teo's stories. And I also happened to find my old copy of it and I was sort of paging through it. and I was like, oh, yeah, man, that stuff was so interesting. So Teo told his stories to you know Alison and then Annabelle put them together. And they're are actually they're also written in Creole. A lot of the life to the stories that Teo would tell has to do with them coming through in Belizean Creole, which is very
00:11:09
Speaker
It's like Jamaican. It's like Bob Marley, right? That lilt, that sort of Jamaican lilt. And Teo would, you know, that's how Teo talked. Belesians talk. So he would tell the stories in that manner. And it's it's fun to read stuff that's written in Creole too. And I'll give examples of that, you know, as as I go through this. But In terms of the specifics and in terms of specifically what to do if you meet the Dwindae, well, you're going to have to keep listening after the break. Hello, and welcome back to the pseudo archaeology podcast, episode 154. I am your host, Andrew Kinkella. And well, I must say I'm your host, Dr. Andrew Kinkella. Can't forget that. I'm very important.
00:12:03
Speaker
But we have been talking about the mischievous forest creatures, the Duende of Central America, and specifically of Belize and, you know, of this folkloric creature and my friend Teo, who who I used to work with and would tell me the stories of the Duende. Now. One of the things with the first story I remember. About the Duende is.
00:12:33
Speaker
always to show him four and four. You show the Duende four and four, and you're like, what? Show him four and four? That's right. And so what Teo said was, he's like, if you meet,
00:12:48
Speaker
this small forest creature. And this is always going to happen, you know, maybe early in the morning or in the evening in the jungle in a time when stuff is a little bit more mystical, maybe a little bit darker and dimmer out there and you're alone and you see this creature like just kind of hiding behind a tree. Right. Oh.
00:13:11
Speaker
You have to make sure to show him four and four. Do not show him five and five. Do not show him your thumbs. You know why? Because in the words of Teo, the duende will tive your thumbs.
00:13:25
Speaker
He would say, Andraman, they in Belize, everyone called me Andrew man, right? He'd be like, Andraman, if you see the Dwindi, do not show him your thumbs. He will TV your thumbs by. And what Taylor was saying is he will feed your thumbs. So the first sort of.
00:13:44
Speaker
part of this of this mythology is that the Duende will take your thumbs for himself. He will break them off and take them. So he's like, he's this trickster, but he's kind of like 9% kind of evil too. Kind of is creepy. I don't think I've ever seen the Duende named that used in any movie. I don't know. There might be some B movie beyond B movie, but you know, it, it works as like sort of a low budget horror movie telling you. So that's the first rule. Do not show them your thumbs. Show them four and four, four and four, or he will teeth your thumbs. Second thing that I remember about the Duende detail would say is like,
00:14:26
Speaker
They braid the horse's hair. So this is like in the morning, right? It's misty. You go out there and you see the horses. And if their hair is braided, the Dwindae because the Dwindae are tricksters, right? And they will braid the horse's hair.
00:14:42
Speaker
Another thing about the Duende that Teo would tell me about is you'll know you'll see this forest creature because of also what they're wearing. They tend to wear like a big jungle hat that's made out of palm fronds, like a big like palm frond jungle hat. And this is actually a real thing. Teo used to make these, and I think he would sell them ah to some of the tourists and that kind of stuff who would come by LPLR. They're actually really nice.
00:15:12
Speaker
They're hard to explain, but they look kind of like a normal hat. If you picture a child drawing a hat, you know, they look kind of like that and they're made with. picture like palm fronds that are like an inch wide, ah but and really nicely woven throughout to kind of make this woven hat. That's even something that I believe the ancient Maya would do. And another really interesting thing about the Duende and how the Belisians tell the story of the Duende is it's also mixed culturally.
00:15:42
Speaker
what we'll find is there's deep history both on the on the old world side of the Atlantic and the new world side of Atlantic that's kind of come together in this cultural milieu which is what we have now as with so many things in Belize as I've talked about before Belize is really a nexus of cultures you see this mix match you know of of all kinds of different cultures kind of being there and leaving their mark on the overall vibe of the place. So the Duende will often be wearing this sort of jungle hat. And also, this was a big deal. I heard it lots of times that the Duende would have pointy shoes, these little pointy shoes, very leprechaunny, right? These pointy shoes. And also with another thing I heard in terms of the feet
00:16:36
Speaker
And this would depend on the story. Sometimes the feet would be turned backwards. It was something about the feet being backwards or like the legs like like pointed backwards, the sort of odd semi-human, you know, beyond human supernatural thing, right? The feet being turned the wrong way, but with pointy shoes.
00:16:59
Speaker
Now beyond the, the, hide your thumbs, braid horse's hair, pointy shoes, hat, right? There, there were other things that sometimes I didn't quite understand. It's, it's just like with any, you can pick any kind of mythology. You can look at different ways. The Bible's translated. You can look at, right? Any religious mythology, native, native American storytelling, and there can be,
00:17:26
Speaker
Different stories about the same thing that sometimes are incongruous, right? But sometimes like don't quite but like both of them couldn't be true sort of thing, but it doesn't really matter because it has to do with the storyteller and the overall theme that they're trying to
Cultural Significance and Origins of the Duende
00:17:40
Speaker
say. But I remember that sometimes it would seem like the one day we're related to snakes a little bit, but.
00:17:49
Speaker
It might have also been that the snakes or snake, snake looking eyes that one day may have s snake looking eyes, but that also kind of morphed into a story of what tail called the ish to buy, which is a more Maya story, which is sort of like.
00:18:07
Speaker
a female jungle temptress, right? That would sort of lure you out into the middle of nowhere, into the jungle to get you lost. That's what Teo would tell me that a lot, right? The Ishtabai or the Dwindae themselves. I think both of these figures, be it the female temptress or be it the more leprechaun, you know, the leprechaun Dwindae,
00:18:30
Speaker
One of their trickster things was to was to get you lost. it It'd be like, oh, and then your loss, right, your loss. And you can see how that is a useful tool for children who live in beliefs and live in the outlying towns, because I am telling you, people don't believe me until they experience it, that if you are walking along a trail in the jungle and you take one step off the trail, one wrong step,
00:19:00
Speaker
You can be lost one step because you take one step off. All the trees that you're seeing, they kind of move just a little bit. The ankles are different than they were a second ago. And all of a sudden, you can't really find the trail again anymore. And then you get further lost. So that's the Duenday's fault. Right. That's what the Duenday has gotten a hold of you. You know, when your mind is wandering on the ah trail. Watch out, because that's the Duenday.
00:19:30
Speaker
Making your mind wander, you know, in more recent things, we in in current society, it would be the also the equivalent of like, oh, the one day have have taken the sock that you can't find out of the dryer, you know, that kind of thing, this trickster creature.
00:19:48
Speaker
And if you're wondering how else to tell if one day is there when you're in the jungle, right? Yes, sometimes you might look and see him, you know, as he just ducks behind one of the trees in the forest. But, you know, like when you're walking through the jungle in the late evening.
00:20:06
Speaker
And you're sort of like on edge and you're looking around and you feel the hair on the back of your head come up. You're like, that's the Dwinday. That's the Dwinday. Right. And you turn around. Nope. Nope. Dwinday is faster than you. Right. That's that. That's the feel of the Dwinday right behind you when your hair goes up. Right. Dwinday is coming after you, man. In in the worst case, the Dwinday can like,
00:20:36
Speaker
can like even have children, like take children away, you know, like lead children away from the village or children to get lost. And when really bad stuff like that happens, then you go see a witch doctor and then like the witch doctor can like burn copal. And this is where that's that's very Maya. The burning copal is a tree sap from the copal tree.
00:20:59
Speaker
and use certain incantations in this kind of thing to force the duende to bring the child back to where the child was originally lost from. Right. So it's all sort of interconnected like that. So it's this trickster deity, almost demon, deity demon, right? That is so useful, as you can see, to use as like a foil or as a storytelling machine in order to give people warnings to tell people about respecting the jungle, because man, the jungle is a scary place. The jungle is a tough place. You got it like you can't be stupid. You got to be on your toes in the jungle. And so while the Duende are trickster forest creatures, they're also helping you out because they're in the back of your head, making sure you do the right thing. And when we come back,
00:21:53
Speaker
What does academia and the internet say about the Duende? All right. Hello and welcome back to the pseudo-archaeology podcast episode 154. I'm your host, Dr. Andrew Kinkella. And we are wrapping up our scintillating discussion on the Duende of the Leads. Now, after just sort of having the What would you call it? First person knowledge? I don't know of my experiences with Teo and his stories of the Duende and not just Teo. Other people would tell these stories, too. You know, in Belize, the idea of the Duende is is widely known. I looked it up you know online and I found a couple of things first.
00:22:45
Speaker
The idea of the Duende is old and it seems to be originally Spanish in origin from even like the 1600s and very related, of course, to like dwarves, elves, leprechaun, that kind of world and used in storytelling in that same way in Spain. And then, of course, you know, as as people cross for the first time from the old world to the new world, you also get these stories coming in and filtering through to But aspects of it, as we will get into, are also kind of Maya in origin and just very fascinating. So.
00:23:24
Speaker
That aspect of coming from Spain comes up in sort of the academic world. I also looked up Duende. I just searched Duende Belize. And you know that like little AI generated part that now comes up at the top of your search, which I kind of hate the whole AI thing freaks me out. I don't like it. But it said first.
00:23:47
Speaker
It says that in Belize, they call the duende the tata duende. And I've seen that in other written aspects on the duende. I swear to God, you guys, I never heard the term tata duende used ever, not once. They say it's kind of that aspect is Garifuna and the Garifuna culture in Belize are is a straight up like Afro-Caribbean culture. They were originated from a slave ship that that crashed in Belize and the survivors made their own yeah community. But the the word up front, that tata part
00:24:26
Speaker
Which is apparently possibly supposed to mean old, but I don't know. ah it To me, that's not honest to my experience. I i only ever heard the Duende called the Duende. That AI part, though, also says for the appearance that the Tata Duende is a four foot tall dwarf with backwards feet. I'm like, that checks out.
Comparing Personal Experiences with AI Descriptions of Duende
00:24:49
Speaker
The for behavior, it says that that the d one day is a mischievous spirit that checks out who enjoys playing the guitar and riding horses. I never heard the guitar thing, but now I realize I'm going to have to do my story on the witch doctor. I'm meeting the witch doctor when I'm at the witch doctor. A guitar was in the mix, my friends and riding horses. I i that.
00:25:15
Speaker
Makes the smallest bulb in my brain go off. I think Teo did talk about the Duende riding horses once, but I remember the braiding the horse's hair more. And I could see maybe that braiding the horse's hair also meant that the Duende were holding the horses you know by their mane while they were riding them. I think that could make sense.
00:25:38
Speaker
The one day lure children into the forest to steal them. Yes, I did hear that the idea of getting lost of children getting lost. Right. And and having a witch doctor come to help get the children back. Then. And then it even has the ai see A A.I. is going to take us over, my friends, because the A.I. even has tips on how to avoid the one day you don't even need me. Just.
00:26:05
Speaker
Just Google Duende Belize and just read, I'm sure the AI can read it for you. Why don't you just plug your brain in to your computer and just like download all the info and stories that are better than my story. Why don't you just, I'm sure, I'm sure you can get an AI Teo to tell stories in Teo's voice and then you just don't really need me at all. Let's be honest. That's where we're going.
00:26:29
Speaker
ah So tips on avoiding. Let's see if you encounter one in the forest. You should hide your thumbs and show your hands. Dude, they they know everything. He may mistake you for one of his smaller cousins and let you go. I've never heard that. I never heard that in my life. I never heard that this you go like this and that then the Duende mistakes you for his cousin. I've never heard that once in my life. Although I do remember Teo saying that the Duende were like dumb in their own way, like that they were like kind of they're tricksterish and they're funny, but they're also kind of dense. I do remember him saying that.
00:27:08
Speaker
And then here it also says you can also try setting up a guitar and a bottle of rum on a still bedside. Oh, sorry. You can so also try setting up a guitar and a bottle of rum on a still beside a mirror to scare them away. What? That makes no sense to me. I'm sorry. See, is fallible. We can take Skynet down, my friends. We can do this.
00:27:36
Speaker
Yeah, you're not going to win, Skynet. Although I do have to say a bottle of rum was in my story with the witch doctor. More later. So.
00:27:50
Speaker
That's funny. Oh, it does also list other creatures of Belizean folklore include the Ishtabai, a mythical seductress who lures men to her saber tree home. The saber tree is one of the large jungle trees, which is very obvious when you see a saber tree in the forest. It stands out very.
00:28:10
Speaker
big, smooth bark, symbolic of um the world tree. Oh, there's so much there. Yeah. Mythical seductress lures men to her saber tree where they meet a grizzly end. Yeah, that
Broader Context of Belizean Folklore
00:28:21
Speaker
that checks out. And then they have others listed here like La Llorona and which is a female mythological character who you see a lot you see in Native Native American stories. And then they even list Anansi, which is Caribbean slash African.
00:28:37
Speaker
which is like the the spider, which I never heard. I've never heard La Llorona. I don't think and believes maybe once. And I don't think I ever heard Anansi or I would, I would remember that. So it kind of half checks out. It's funny. Some of these stories almost seem like They seem like bastardizations of what Teo said and bastardizations of what I actually experienced at other times. I'm like, has the AI downloaded stories from my own brain that I barely even ever told? I don't know. But that's the Duende, sort of mysterious, sort of negative.
00:29:23
Speaker
You know, kind of like the negative side of an elf or a dwarf, you know, or leprechaun sort of leprechaun gone bad. It's deep in Belizean mythology. You hear taught them talk about that. And I always really dug the stories on the one day. They were some of my favorites. And, you know, it's stuff like this.
00:29:49
Speaker
that really helps the days and weeks and months go by when you're in a place like Belize and you know, you're not from there and you're you' and You're not a local, but you're not just a tourist either. You're in this weird middle ground. And it's just, it's really fun to learn about that stuff and experience it. And of course on the crew, we used the idea of the Duende all the time. It's like, if forgot if you forgot your pencil in your backpack, you'd be like, dude, Duende stole my pencil, dude. You know, we used it nonstop. And still even today with some of my old Belize friends, I'd be like, oh,
00:30:25
Speaker
beware the mischievous twin they do you know it's just it adds color to life man the world's better withws in it than without and i just I dig just thinking back and thinking back to
Reflections on the Meaning and Impact of Duende Stories
00:30:40
Speaker
Teo. and Teo really helped me out in the jungle too beyond his stories. He was just he was a caring guy you know under underneath. He loved a crowd and he loved to tell stories, but he was also also looked out for us, looked out for the students. you know I think he really enjoyed his time with us. like That road went both ways. you know We enjoyed having him around and he liked having us around.
00:31:03
Speaker
He was also he was also a pretty good cook and we would get like cooking tips on how to cook the lesion food from him. He just he was a cool dude, man. I I I'm so fortunate for my time with Teo and. In terms of the Dwinde. Did I ever personally see a Dwinde?
00:31:26
Speaker
No. And even though I spent those months and different years with Teo and with other Belizean people who we worked with in the jungle, some of whom did tell me stories about the Duende. Do I believe in the Duende? I mean, even a little, come on. You were there in the jungle, in the mist, in the late afternoon. And Kinkela, you felt the hair on the back of your neck go up.
00:31:57
Speaker
Do you believe that was the Duende? No, there's no such thing as the Duende, but it's a fantastic story. And with that, I'll see you guys next time.
Conclusion and Audience Engagement
00:32:13
Speaker
Thanks for listening to the pseudo archeology podcast. Please like and subscribe wherever you'd like and subscribe. And if you have questions for me, Dr. Andrew Kinkella, feel free to reach out using the links below or go to my YouTube channel, Kinkella teaches archeology. See you guys next time.
00:32:34
Speaker
The Archaeology Podcast Network is 10 years old this year. Our executive producer is Ashley Airy, our social media coordinator is Matilda Seabreck, and our chief editor is Rachel Rodin. The Archaeology Podcast Network was co-founded by Chris Webster and Tristan Boyle in 2014 and is part of CulturoMedia and DigTech LLC. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.