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An Interview With Tallulah Cloos, A First-Time CRM Archaeologist - CRMArch 216
215 Plays4 years ago
Tallulah Cloos is between her junior and senior year at college and is working in CRM this summer (2021). She’s also a listener of the CRM Archaeology Podcast. As her and her friend were driving to a job they listened to the podcast for advice on what to expect. Why? Because you don’t get this in college - STILL. We give Tallulah and all new archaaeologists some advice on how to start and what to expect.
Follow Our Panelists On Twitter
Bill @succinctbill; Doug @openaccessarch; Stephen @processarch; Bill A. @archaeothoughts; Chris W @Archeowebby, @DIGTECHLLC, and @ArchPodNet
Blogs:
- Bill White: Succinct Research
- Doug Rocks-MacQueen: Doug’s Archaeology
- Stephen Wagner: Process - Opinions on Doing Archaeology
- Chris Webster: Random Acts of Science
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Transcript
Introduction to CRM Archaeology Podcast
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network. This is the Serum Archaeology Podcast. It's the show where we pull back the veil of cultural resources management archaeology and discuss the issues that everyone is concerned about. Welcome to the podcast.
00:00:20
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the CRM archaeology podcast, episode 216 for June 2nd, 2021. I'm not your host, Chris Webster. Heather has taken the lead on this episode. On today's show, the host interview an archaeologist that's on her first CRM job right now. So get ready to take some notes because the crew drops a lot of good advice and because the CRM archaeology podcast starts right now.
00:00:46
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the CRM archaeology podcast episode 216.
Meet the Host: Heather McDaniel McDevitt
00:00:52
Speaker
For let's see it today is May the 23rd 2021. And today I'm your host Heather McDaniel McDevitt. I'm replacing or not replacing but I guess in Chris's stead who's somewhere out in the who knows where the great beyond with
00:01:12
Speaker
Rachel in his RV having fun adventures. Hopefully they're fun adventures and not just grueling fieldwork, but on today's show. I can tell you here are the quotes around fun. Yeah. I can tell you here are the quotes around fun when you said it. And I'm on a book today, so.
00:01:35
Speaker
Yeah, fine. But I'm not doing fieldwork on the boat. Not quite. I'm not an underwater archaeologist, but I'm thinking about it. On today's show, we are honored to have Tallulah. Hi, Tallulah. Hello. She is one of our listeners. And she wrote us an email. She's rather new to CRM, very new to CRM. And she's going to just talk to us about her perspective and
00:02:01
Speaker
She had some questions for those of us that have been in this field for quite a while.
Educational Gaps in CRM
00:02:07
Speaker
But before we get started, I just want to welcome everybody and thank you for listening. And today joining me is Bill in California. Hi, Bill. Good afternoon. And Steven in Calgary. Hi, Steven. And then me, of course. So let's get started. So Tula, you sent us an email and you said that
00:02:29
Speaker
You and your friend were driving down the road listening to us. So thank you for listening to us. And I just had like this, this vision in my head is like Thelma Louise going from field work job to field work job. Although it sounds like you're on your first field work job right now. And you had just expressed that.
00:02:49
Speaker
You know, there's this whole world that's opening up to you and your friend that sounds like you're very excited to embark on this new adventure and this new career. And I can imagine, I think we've all been there. I can distinctly remember my very first job and how my head was absolutely spinning with all this information. And, you know, what makes it a bit problematic is a lot of times when we have careers, we start off in a job. And if it's our first job out of college, it's generally
00:03:18
Speaker
hopefully related to what we studied and we get at least a little bit of mentorship because the companies hired us and they have some investment, even if it's just selfishly, they have some investment in making sure that we succeed. People hire people to succeed at the job that they've hired them to do. But in archaeology, as we all know, a lot of the jobs are as needed
00:03:40
Speaker
And so a lot of times it can just be filling a slot that they need to fill quickly. And a lot of times the mentorship isn't there. And I can imagine starting at your career, not having that kind of mentorship, not really having the perspective to know who to listen to, who not to listen to can be very overwhelming. So I'm really glad that you are joining us so that we can give that perspective because you are definitely not the only one. That's very good to hear.
00:04:09
Speaker
Yeah, tell us maybe a little bit about how you got introduced to our podcast and maybe some, you know, the reason, what was the impetus behind you reaching out to us? I mean, I'm in college right now. My major is archaeology and studying it. I think the main reason they're listening to this podcast is I was just doing my own kind of research on CRM and also a thing I've noticed in school is that
00:04:35
Speaker
no one really talks to you about CRM and it's kind of confusing because this is the number one hire of archaeologists, but we don't talk about it in school. They don't really prepare you for it. Me and my friend, we were on our great big road trip out to the west for our first
00:04:58
Speaker
Well, my first serum job, but my friend's like second serum job. Yeah, we've just been listening to this podcast a lot because it honestly, it's very helpful for kind of knowing what to expect because we have no idea what to expect. And I think we still kind of don't really know what to expect. But yeah, that was kind of a reason for reaching out. I think that, you know, your point, I'm sure since you said you've been listening to a few of the episodes, you can
00:05:25
Speaker
You've heard this before that that's kind of one of our pet peeves is that unfortunately, academia is not preparing those that are in school with how to enter CRM.
00:05:37
Speaker
kind of more based on both theory and, you know, the ins and outs of how do you dig a hole and even sometimes not even not, actually, most of its theory. And, you know, most of it's just talking about archaeology in a broad sense, rather than actually, how do you work in archaeology? How do you get a job? What is the difference between academic archaeology and
00:06:04
Speaker
professional archaeology.
Transitioning from Academia to CRM
00:06:05
Speaker
There is a difference, for sure. And Bill, I'd love to hear what you have to say, because I'm sure, Tululay, over some time you realized that Bill is a professor, and he has a passion toward, you know, about making sure that archaeology students know what's in front of them and are prepared for going into the workforce, Bill.
00:06:28
Speaker
Yeah, sure. It's sad to hear that after doing this for almost 20 years that people are still graduating in the same place that I was as an undergrad. I mean, no one even mentioned CRM one time in my undergrad. It wasn't until I was out of school for a year before an old professor told me that I needed to try to get a job in CRM. And so it's pretty crazy that things would exist for this long. And as someone who's now working in academia, I can start to see that
00:06:54
Speaker
There's some demographic changes that are coming that could absolutely, you know, turn over cultural resources. We have fewer college age adults coming in the next 10 years. We have, you know, more laws with more projects possibly coming with all these infrastructure projects coming out.
00:07:13
Speaker
and fewer field schools going on because, you know, many different reasons but the liability that universities have is probably the number one. So, there's fewer and fewer opportunities for students to learn about archaeology at a time when we need more skilled archaeologists and I'm just one person, right? And I'm not the only one who's trying to do stuff to prepare students, you know, there's a bunch of other folks but
00:07:34
Speaker
The other saddest thing is that we're literally waiting for an entire generation of professors to retire so that we can have professors who have ever heard of CRM that understand that the future of these anthro departments is getting people jobs, teaching them real skills so that they can really get employment.
00:07:52
Speaker
that, you know, doing things the same way we've been doing it for 100 and whatever years is not really going to cut it. So there's some programs out there that are aimed towards getting folks ready for the field, but those are really few and far between. But I see that if we don't
00:08:08
Speaker
step up and start connecting with businesses and teaching students real-world skills, then there's kind of not going to be anthropology departments in the future because if you have a department that has lower decreasing enrollments, students are graduating, they're having trouble finding work, or they're telling other people that the folks in this department don't really connect and they don't
00:08:29
Speaker
they didn't give me anything that I could use for my career. None of that, it's like a positive feedback loop where there's fewer enrollments, fewer students coming in and students telling other people that anthropology is irrelevant and CRM is going to have to figure out what it's going to do. I mean, I don't know what's going to happen but it's just sad that we're in this situation. I remember reading articles that were written in like 1971 about how colleges needed to step up and start teaching some real-world skills and here we are 50 years later
00:08:58
Speaker
University is still not really doing it. I was thinking, you know, my first year I was told about CRM right away. And I was told by my first archaeology professor to get into CRM as soon as you can.
00:09:11
Speaker
even if it means on the internship basis, you're not getting paid or what you're going to pay is very little, that it's really important. And I think I'm really lucky that I had that experience. And of course, you know, my perspective at that point was I would, of course, I thought every professor did that because that's logical. But I'm thinking, and the reason he did that was because he was in CRM before he went back to graduate school. And so I think that maybe it's, you know, or not maybe, it's probably definitely
00:09:42
Speaker
because of the fact that these professors, quite a few of them, have never worked in Sierra and themselves. I think if they did, they would be saying that. Do you, you know, Tallulah has anybody in your, without saying where you go to school, but
00:09:56
Speaker
Have you ever heard anything about CRM? I have. The first way I heard about it is I was taking an archaeological methods class and I believe in that class we didn't really talk much about like you're saying about learning how to dig a hole. I can say I've never been taught
00:10:15
Speaker
Even in field school, no one taught me how to properly dig a hole. But yeah, I just heard, I remember we were going over the main hiring sectors of archaeologists, and we talked about CRM. But I believe that is the only professor I've had ever talk about CRM. And even then, I was still quite confused.
00:10:38
Speaker
It wasn't really until I started talking to grad students and other people who had graduated that I really learned what CRM really was. Well, just to make you feel a little better.
00:10:51
Speaker
I will say that sometimes the way academics dig or how they approach an excavation is very different than CRM. And so maybe it's not, although it's wrong. I mean, if you're in school, you should be learning these things. You know, I think a lot of times departments rely on the field schools to do that. And just like Bill was saying with for some, for one reason or another, the fact that we may have, you know, our field schools may be lessening
00:11:18
Speaker
that this is a point where these departments are really going to have to step up and teach. I learned how to excavate through a field class, not a field school, but a field class. So where I went to school, they actually had a field class. And it was every Saturday for the entire semester and encouraged to take it for two semesters. And that was, it was essential. But again, it was taught by that same individual that worked in CERM. And so he understood how to teach people how they take
00:11:48
Speaker
from both perspectives, not just the academic. It's not that one is right and the other one is wrong, they're just, when they're excavating, there are certain aspects of excavations that are different between CRM and academic.
00:12:00
Speaker
So, you know, I wouldn't say that you're on the, you know, at a disadvantage necessarily, as long as the people that you're working for understand that and that you're upfront with them and you let them know that, but that you're a quick learner and that you're a hard worker. And for me personally, when hiring people, I'd almost rather train somebody
00:12:20
Speaker
from scratch so I can train them the right way, or at least how I perceive the right way, then have to retrain people because sometimes that's even more difficult. Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. I mean, what I've kind of noticed also talking to other people in my program at school is that you're required at my school, you're required to do a field school to get your degree, but all the field schools have differing, like,
Challenges of the CRM Lifestyle
00:12:47
Speaker
teaching methods. Well, my friend learned about the Monsoil chart. I, on the other hand, learned none of that. I didn't learn how to set up a one-by-one or map stuff down on a grid. But I've noticed entering CRM, everyone is very, very kind about
00:13:07
Speaker
what you know and like what you've experienced and like very eager to like teach and share and I feel like what I kind of got from that is like from talking to my co-workers and stuff they're like you know like every time you work for a new company like it's all kind of different like you're learning like all the time so like never feel like you're at a complete disadvantage because like everyone is always learning which was really helpful to hear.
00:13:37
Speaker
I love the fact that you're finding some support. That's one very good positive sign is that you have some, you're getting mentorship. Mentorship comes in lots of different avenues. It's not the obvious. When we go to school or we go to college in the beginning, we have this idea that the professor is going to be our mentor. But in actuality, many times it's just those that have just a little bit more knowledge than we do.
00:14:05
Speaker
because it's actually their perspective is a little more relatable to us and it's not as overwhelming. I'm glad to hear that you're getting some mentorship. On the other side, let's talk a little bit about what you think... I don't know what year you are in. Do you mind sharing that? Yeah, I'm going into my senior year. Oh, great.
00:14:31
Speaker
Let's talk on the other end of this break. What you would like to see and what you envision would be, now that you have a little bit of experience in the field, what do you feel would be helpful to you moving into your senior year and maybe how this experience in the field has shaped how you personally are going to approach your senior year. Thank you everyone for our second segment of CRMARC podcasts.
00:14:59
Speaker
episode 216. We're here with Tulula. She is a junior. Hello, Tulula. She's a junior and she's sharing her experience, first time experience in CRM as a undergraduate student who's going into her senior year. We're talking in the last segment just about her experience and how she actually has
00:15:24
Speaker
has found some mentorship, even in her first job. And we're talking about, let's see, how you think that your senior year, maybe how you're going to approach it differently based on this experience that you've had this spring.
00:15:38
Speaker
One of the main things that I've really discovered is that, I mean, I've kind of had a little bit of a crisis when I realized that like doing, okay, I think like I thought like with an archaeology degree, I'd be able to kind of settle down somewhere.
00:15:57
Speaker
And then I realized that if I were to shovelbump and just keep my undergraduate degree, that it would be a lifetime of traveling and living in hotels.
00:16:12
Speaker
So I've kind of come to a little bit of a crisis about that because I've realized I do not like living in hotels for extended periods of time. It is quite miserable. I am cooking in the hotel parking lot on a backpacking stove, which I believe no one tells me about that. Well, you know what, I'm going to just, just so that since I'm sure that this, a lot of people are going to relate to that comment.
00:16:38
Speaker
I do want to let you know that there's hope for something different, even if you do not go get a graduate degree. Just because you have an undergraduate doesn't mean that you are only going to be relegated to that kind of a lifestyle.
00:16:51
Speaker
For some people, that is something that they really enjoy. They enjoy that lifestyle. And that's actually probably what promotes. A lot of the approach of CRM firms is that there are people out there that love having that. And I don't mean this in a derogatory term at all that.
00:17:10
Speaker
Vagabond lifestyle, that gypsy-type lifestyle where there's a new adventure every couple months where you're traveling. Some people really enjoy that. For me personally, I don't know if you know my history, but this is my second career. I did this. I started in archaeology as a single mother with two very young children, so that was not something I could do either.
00:17:32
Speaker
I do have a graduate degree, however, I started working and I've never actually had to travel ever to outside of, you know, 100 miles from my home to actually do work. Now, I have worked all over the country, but that actually came long down the road after I was a CRM manager.
00:17:51
Speaker
So, and that was a choice of mine to do that. But it isn't something that has to be that way. And I think we can talk.
Finding Stability in CRM Without a Graduate Degree
00:17:59
Speaker
I'd like to hear a little bit more about your perspective, how you're going to approach your senior year. But I do want to give you hope that that's actually not the case. One of my colleagues where I work as she is, I call her right hand person. I can say right hand man, but right hand person. And she is absolute. She's tremendous. I mean, I would put anybody with a graduate degree against
00:18:21
Speaker
her, not against her, but I mean, I would put her up to anybody else that has a graduate degree, her managerial skills. There's so many skills, intangible skills and tangible skills that she has that no graduate program will ever be able to, would ever be able to teach her. I mean, it's just innate or innate in her. These skill sets, it's more skill set, it's more a lot of its personality,
00:18:49
Speaker
So, you know, there is hope. You don't need to just think that the shovel bomb lifestyle is the only way to go. Okay, that is good to hear. Yeah, I think it's really helpful to have this experience and shake that with me into senior year and also I think kind of like
00:19:09
Speaker
realize where the gaps in my knowledge are and try to like work on those and also maybe talk to like some of the other undergrads who haven't gotten to experience serum yet and kind of touch with them about it. Yeah, I definitely would suggest anytime you know, when we're in the field,
00:19:31
Speaker
There's so much time to talk as long as we work quickly, right? But there's a lot of time to talk. One of the really fun parts about archaeology is that it is such a social career. Day-to-day, you really get to know people very well. When you're spending 24-7 sometimes with people between working in the fields and having dinner afterwards or in the hotel, you really get to know each other. And taking advantage, just like you said, is such a great idea
00:20:00
Speaker
to just pick people's brains, especially those that have been in the field. You'll notice that the people that have been in the field for many years, that's a conscious decision that they made. And I think that if you don't take, you know, just like in any career, you need to take the reins of your career and you have to drive it.
00:20:23
Speaker
You have to make conscious decisions and sometimes that's hard, especially when you're struggling financially, just to make it through. And you're just getting from job to job and trying to keep your head above water. It's difficult to remember that you have to be building skill set and have a goal and a plan in front of you to further your career and keep moving.
00:20:46
Speaker
up, so to speak, so that if doing the shovel bomb lifestyle is not something that you want to do so. Yeah, I have a couple of things to add about that too, because this is kind of a common thing that I see in a lot of people. And, you know, I remember when I was first starting out, going from job to job is not easy. So it's not like you're gonna find a lot of support at your
00:21:07
Speaker
with your family and everything when you have to keep finding new jobs. But a couple of things that I suggest, find something you really like about archaeology that can keep you going in the times when you maybe want to quit or want to switch your job.
00:21:22
Speaker
So for me, it was historical archaeology. I love reading all those historical documents and all kinds of different stuff and doing archival work and then adding that to sites, things that we found. So I really like doing that kind of background research and learning everything I can about a site or a family that used to live there or some crazy event that happened in whatever town near that site and then adding the artifacts to that. That's something that I always loved.
00:21:49
Speaker
that it kept me going for years and years, even on crummy projects. It would make me go the extra mile to put my heart into something when I didn't necessarily care so much for the project. So that was definitely one major thing. But you're just starting out, so another thing that I would
00:22:06
Speaker
think about is kind of daydream a little bit about, you know, what kind of life you want to have. Because I think a lot of folks, they have an idea about archaeology, and it's just like Nat Geo. And then they start doing it, and they realize that there's, you know, one thousandth of a percent of people that have that Nat Geo job. There's only one person, that's why they're on Nat Geo. Then they find out that it's more like standing next to a backhoe in the sun in the middle of, you know, San Bernardino County.
00:22:33
Speaker
for like, you know, four weeks in a row. And then they find out that maybe this isn't the kind of job that they actually wanted to do. And there's nothing wrong with that. So just think about the kind of lifestyle that you want to have. And it makes it more likely for you to get that job, right? So in the case of Heather, what she was mentioning, you know, she couldn't leave because she had kids and she couldn't be traveling all over the West for kids. A lot of times you can't bring your kids with you to the site. So she had to find a way by focusing on her own abilities
00:23:02
Speaker
and her own things that she's interested in and cultivate herself so that she could stay at home and have that kind of office job. And so I think a lot of folks, you know, a lot of times they kind of get in this rut where they're doing field archaeology and it's all amazing and everything. And then years later, they decide that they want to do something else and then they find that it's difficult for them to switch and to get that office job without having to do some kind of crazy acrobatics. But if that was already your idea, you know, years before, you can kind of plan ahead.
00:23:31
Speaker
adding to what Heather said, having a plan or having some kind of a trajectory, focusing on something that you really love. And then you're much more likely to actually get that kind of lifestyle than if you just let things flow. So to build on what Bill was just saying, I think, particularly just starting out, it's a good idea to try a lot of different types of projects. And if you
00:23:55
Speaker
are having a hard time on one and you're really not enjoying it and you go through that thing of like, what am I doing? Why am I here? Consider that there's a very good chance that that's more a reaction to that particular project than a career in CRM overall. We've all had projects that really kind of sucked and sometimes it can't be helped. That's why it's called work. Sometimes you have to go just do the hard job.
00:24:23
Speaker
But a lot of times it's because that particular project isn't the right project for you. Consider trying a lot of different ones so you can really dial in what you do like and what you don't like. And you already have a good idea of you don't really want to move around a lot. But even for things that are based out of a central office, so there's not a lot of travel or
00:24:47
Speaker
in maybe an office position or lab position, there's still a lot of different types of positions and projects that you can end up working on. So being a junior in college, that's still really, really new career. So you have a lot of time to kind of explore. Yeah, yeah. I guess, you know, we're like trying to like throw questions at you and stuff like that. But I think
00:25:11
Speaker
One of the things that you wrote about in your email was that you really didn't know what you were getting into and you were listening to us kind of for advice. And I mean, right now is a perfect opportunity for you because you have the three of us sitting here and really like to talk. The fact that I'm like the least talented person in this group is saying a whole lot. So hit us up. What are you interested in?
00:25:37
Speaker
You know, what are you curious about that you think might be able to answer? Oh, God. Let me think. Yeah, totally put you on the spot, huh? My brain, my brain is pretty dead because there's been a child has been crying all night in the hotel.
00:25:55
Speaker
I have not gotten much sleep. I think I was wondering if there's a way to live a stable life with a steady income without having to go to grad school. I think that was one of my questions. Is that a hopeless dream or can that happen? It is definitely not hopeless. In fact,
00:26:21
Speaker
I personally think I wish more people would go out into the CRM world first before going back to graduate school, because I think a lot of times, you know, people, they end up in this academic bubble and they go to graduate school straight from undergrad. And it's, you know, it definitely lessens their perspective. They get less out of, I believe, they get less out of graduate school.
00:26:48
Speaker
And then they get more entrenched into academia, which is nothing nothing wrong with that. Because for some people, that's really where they want to go. But for CRM, you really do need to have that perspective from the professional side of things. And it actually shapes how you approach graduate school. So.
00:27:06
Speaker
whether it be an experience where you're going, if you do want to go to graduate school, right? And then, so I think how does that affect graduate school? It affects graduate school by you having a much more practical approach to graduate school as far as looking at it to build your skill set and you get much more out of graduate school. Well, the same approach goes to your career. So like I said before, you really do have to be active. It's not something where you can
00:27:36
Speaker
And this is the way it is in any in any career, really. I mean, you can't just go and show up at work and then expect that great things happen to you. You you have to. I'm not saying that that's what you're saying to Luna, but.
00:27:49
Speaker
With archaeology is specifically, you really do have to take an active role in your growth and your skill set. And you have to be active. If it's all part of your personality to be assertive, you have to step outside of of that and learn how to be assertive, at least in this respect. And that is this interests me. And I would like to have some more experience and trust me.
00:28:13
Speaker
You know, those that are hiring and are supervising a good manager, a good crew supervisor should want to have somebody who's hungry to learn.
00:28:22
Speaker
And so if there's something that you see, you know, an aspect of the job that you think is interesting, go and ask and say, you know, I'm trying to build my skillset. If you don't have anything right now, if you have something in the future, let's say lab interests you. I'd really love to learn how to speak to you. I'd love to learn how to work in the lab and, you know, really pursue that opportunity. It may not be a yes right away, but I can guarantee you that the person you talk to
00:28:51
Speaker
We'll have that in the back of their head the next time they need somebody and almost every time managers their hiring approach is. You know, there's so many times that jobs just get popped in our laps and we have to fill the spot immediately.
00:29:06
Speaker
And so, you know, if somebody has said that they have an interest in something, you probably be the first call after their normal staff. So, that would be one piece of advice that I would give you. Yeah, I absolutely agree that, you know, that's the quandary that a lot of people are looking for. Can you get stability doing archaeology? And I say yes. All of us here have had been doing CRM for a long time, and it wasn't always with the same employer, and it wasn't always in the same town, but then again, none of the jobs that anyone
00:29:35
Speaker
that you know that's over 25 years old has had the same job in the same town. It is totally normal for us to all start families and to have mortgages and to pay student loans and to get cars and all that stuff doing archaeology as a job. So yes, you can find that kind of stability in the whole dream that we're all advertised to doing archaeology.
00:29:57
Speaker
Great. Yeah. I feel like also kind of talking to what Heather is saying. I mean, I searched for a job for the summer of doing ceram because I was just so like, I really wanted to learn more than just do more archaeology.
00:30:12
Speaker
In general, since I think a lot of the academic stuff going on at my school isn't happening this summer because of the pandemic. Also, it was very hard to find a company that would actually accept even an application from someone who has yet to finish a four-year degree, which was pretty challenging to think about.
00:30:34
Speaker
like how people in undergrad could get experience before graduating in this. So that was interesting to kind of look into. I think that is, I would really like to expand on that and how you approached getting a job in the next segment. So we'll take this discussion on to segment number three. Segment three of CRM podcast episode 216. And we're here with Tallulah.
00:31:03
Speaker
who is a junior and heading a rising senior, as they say, in her undergrad. And she has had her first experience or is in the middle of her first experience.
Tallulah's Job Search Journey
00:31:14
Speaker
And we started the conversation in segment two about how do you get experience without experience? It is definitely the age old question. It's something that everybody has dealt with unless they've gotten lucky the first run out and able to establish some
00:31:32
Speaker
some experience because they knew somebody. Obviously, networking is really important. Curious, before we go into this any further, first of all, how did you find the job? Second of all, how did you apply? How did you package yourself? How did you introduce yourself to the companies?
00:31:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think basically what I did was I think I found some like mega list of CRM companies in the US and I knew I was really interested in southwestern archaeology because I go to school in the northeast and it's all really focused around northeastern stuff and I was like, I am curious about southwestern, I want to do some work out there. So I found a list of companies in the west and I kind of
00:32:19
Speaker
literally just emailed people saying like, Hey, do you have any field tech positions that you would be open to having me for? And yeah, I got a few responses and just did a little application. But yeah, I just was like, I'd love to learn and get out there. And that was, I mean, that's a great attitude. I think, let's see, if I was in that position,
00:32:47
Speaker
And just having the perspective of somebody who does hire and who is looking for, I mean, because again, a lot of times we're hiring people, we're hiring them because we need somebody right now. A lot of times jobs don't allow us the luxury of a lot of planning. And so it's a bit, it makes a hiring man or a manager.
00:33:11
Speaker
a bit nervous to hire somebody who doesn't have experience. And so that's why it's always a challenge. And it's not to shut people starting off. I have a lot of compassion. For those that are starting off, it's so difficult to get that experience so that they can get more experience. I would say for, I mean, you've already now, you are gonna have some experience under your belt and you'll be surprised at how much that helps in getting more work. But for those that are listening, I think coming from, especially if you're not
00:33:40
Speaker
graduate yet of under at least a senior graduate program that approaching it from an internship is really a good way to go and I know that's actually not something that CRM really we don't advertise we don't put job ads out for internship and unfortunately we don't even work towards a lot of mentorship and we've talked about this before specifically Bill and I have talked about
00:34:09
Speaker
how it's really important that CRM and academia work together to get experience for undergraduate students outside of field schools. But everybody knows what an intern is. And so that internship is actually, just by using that term, allows you to inform your potential employer that you understand that you don't know much, but you want to learn. And that you're also not coming in expecting to be paid a lot of money
00:34:39
Speaker
but that you are going to be paid in both financially, but also in experience and in building your skillset and in learning. So I think that that would be a wise approach, especially if you haven't gotten your degree yet. No, I agree. I think that is really important. And I think something that shocked me when I was looking at job postings is a lot of these companies,
00:35:05
Speaker
must have four year degree, but it's like, you must also have like six months of field experience. And it's like, how do you get like the opening, like entry-level field tech job if you never have, if you need experience. I need to get experience if you don't have experience. Yeah, it makes no sense. The one thing about those job posts, that's the kid that they wish they had.
00:35:31
Speaker
They're hoping that they will actually get someone who has six months experience, but just like Heather was mentioning, when they need folks now, and everyone who's applying does not have six months, or someone only has one or two months, or they get to the point where there's only a few people who can do it at that timeframe that have no experience, I mean, the companies are gonna take folks so that they can actually field crews and do projects. And so they put on there, that's why I recommend that folks apply to jobs
00:35:59
Speaker
you know in some cases like if you're going for a professor job you're really not gonna be able to get it if you just have a bachelor's degree but if you're going for many jobs that's the person that they wish they could get and you never know if that person's gonna apply so don't be afraid to apply i mean you did absolutely the best thing you can do just
00:36:17
Speaker
You know, when you're starting off with no connections, just cold calling people until you get some responses and just do your very best. The worst that they can do is just say no. Yes. And you know what? A lot of times when you're making a phone call, exactly what Bill said, you know, it's easy to go and apply on a website, right? And to turn in your resume.
00:36:36
Speaker
That's an easy thing to do because there's no connection there. You don't have to get the no right over the phone. It's not a good feeling. Nobody likes to be told no or have the potential of being told no. But making those cold calls and actually calling, you'd be very surprised how few people do that. And when you get somebody on the phone and you have a personal connection, even hearing that other person's
00:36:59
Speaker
voice on the other side connects you and makes you actually want to do something for them. And so you'll get a lot more by, you know, there's sometimes
00:37:12
Speaker
hiring managers, but they just don't even see the emails. They don't see the job applications. And the other thing to remember is that, you know, a lot of times you have the job descriptions and the initial application is handled by a company's HR department. And if you have a overzealous HR employee who actually or staff that
00:37:32
Speaker
maybe doesn't understand or hasn't been talking to the CRM managers, the cultural managers in a larger environmental company specifically, they may just look, oh, these persons are qualified and not even forwarded on. So by making that phone call now, you have made a connection and it actually doesn't even matter. But remember, sometimes those, your application may not even be reaching, especially the larger companies may not even be reaching the person
00:38:00
Speaker
that you need to talk to. So making that phone call, doing a little digging to figure out who you need to talk to, you know, do a little sleuthing online is always a good idea. Find out who is, you know, the manager of that office and making a phone call and just asking. I need your help. I'd like to have some experience and I'm willing to do whatever, you know, whatever kind of job you have just to get that experience. So to Lula, I'm curious, your first day.
Overcoming First-Day Nerves
00:38:30
Speaker
What were your feelings your first day? I was very, very scared. I feel like that kind of subsided a bit. We got to the site. A few people had been already working there for about a week, but I think I came in on the day that most of the crew also came in on.
00:38:53
Speaker
I was pretty nervous and I remember we got put into dig partners and I quickly told my dig partner, I was like, listen, I don't really know what I'm doing. I'm so sorry. You're going to have to tell me things. I'm not sure. My dig partner is really nice, but then I also just ended up getting more confused because the person I was digging with also
00:39:17
Speaker
they did not understand the paperwork any better than I did. So it was just double confusion. But eventually after that first day, it all started making sense and it got better and we all got to know each other and everyone that I've worked with, my co-workers are all very, very sweet and understanding.
00:39:39
Speaker
I don't know. It just seems like everyone's learning and everyone doesn't want anyone to feel like they're... I came into this whole kind of complex. I was like, I am not qualified. I should not be here. But everyone was very quick to be like, no, everyone deserves to be here. Everyone knows what they're doing. You're fine. It's all okay. And that was very comforting to hear, I think.
00:40:06
Speaker
You know, how would you approach your first day differently, having, just talking about the having that feeling of not knowing what you're stepping into, not what, knowing what the best step, how, how do you go about, how do you figure out what you do? If somebody wasn't there, it wasn't helping you along the road. What would you have done? And if you had your own podcast and somebody called in and said, what should I do in my first day? What would you do differently? What advice would you give?
00:40:35
Speaker
I don't know. I feel like I kind of approached it in the best way. I mean, I feel like everyone gets the first stage winners. I sure was jittery. But yeah, I feel like go in with as much as hard as this is possible, but go in without trying to put so much stress on yourself.
00:40:57
Speaker
and kind of understand. I think what I got really freaked out about is I was like, oh, I do not have past experience in this. And then I'm like, well, the company knows that. They hired me knowing that. So I kind of just need to remind myself of that. I think that's what I would have done. Yes, good point. I think another helpful hint, and I think this would be good just moving
00:41:21
Speaker
forward in anything that you do, because just remember where you are right now, you're always going to have that feeling. You're going to get more confident. You're going to say, OK, you know, I have some experience under my belt. But if you continue to try to improve and try to grow as a professional, you're always going to be going into situations where you don't you don't feel prepared. You felt ill prepared to be there. And so having the attitude of controlling the controllables is
00:41:51
Speaker
is really important. So doing, you know, a little bit of advanced preparation, you know, and this is, unfortunately, what schools should be doing for you, but they're not. A lot of times, we're afraid to admit what we don't know, when in actuality, it's better to admit, which it sounds like you did exactly that during on your first day, which is, which was excellent, to have a good attitude towards, you know, not going in and trying to pretend that you know something you don't know. But
00:42:21
Speaker
It's always good to take that attitude and do some homework beforehand. So calling your employer and no employer worth their salt should have any problem with you doing this. Calling the office and say, listen, I want to make sure that I'm as prepared as possible. What is it that, you know, what kind of equipment would you like me to bring?
00:42:41
Speaker
And these are some questions, which, of course, you would have known to Lula because people had not primed you in that way. But are we going to be working on paper forms or are we going to work on digital forms? And if they say paper forms, you can ask them ahead of time, would you mind sending me that form ahead so that I can review it and look at it, see?
00:43:00
Speaker
prepare myself for what is going to be ahead of me on my first day. Another good question for a new person in any new job, whether you've had 50 jobs under your belt, any person should be asking, what in what capacity will I be working? Is this a survey job? Is this an excavation job? And if it is an excavation job,
00:43:23
Speaker
What is it that you're going to expect from me? And always, a lot of times people ask this question and they get very aggressive. And sometimes managers will think, oh, they're asking because they're afraid that they're going to be asked to do too much. When in actuality, you're really just trying to prepare yourself to make sure that
00:43:44
Speaker
you know, when you get out in the fields, you're ready to rock and roll right away. So letting them know, I want to make sure that I'm preparing myself properly. Can you let me know what the first day is going to look like and what in your ideal world you expect me to accomplish on that first day and probably for the rest of the actual rotation. So I think that those are good things, never being afraid to ask those questions, just like Bill said, you know, or Nancy said, you just
00:44:13
Speaker
All they can say is, I don't know, or I'll have to tell you on the first day, but never be afraid to ask those questions because it's just going to allow you to be able to perform well. Yeah, totally. That's really good advice. Another thing, did anyone throughout your schooling tell you to keep a personal field book?
00:44:39
Speaker
a field notebook. No one ever did. So that is something I found really helpful.
Keeping Personal Field Notes
00:44:45
Speaker
A lot of times we're taking field notes, but of course those field notes go to someone else. And, you know, some of the best archaeologists, I think it's a lost art. It's something that people don't do anymore, as much as they should. And I, you know, I'm guilty of, you know, not doing it as much as I should do it.
00:45:03
Speaker
my first professor, which I realized the more I go into this, how lucky I was to have the professor I had, but he encouraged he made sure that everybody had a personal field book, as well as the field notes that they took. And that you are just doesn't have to be anything fancy, it could be a few sentences. Sometimes the best some of the best reading is the older archaeologists from years past that
00:45:28
Speaker
actually were very good about writing field notes because there weren't any official forms. They just wrote down what happened and then did the reports based on their own personal notes. But it's still a really good practice to get into because, you know, there are going to be things that you're going to learn and especially in the beginning, everything's going to be thrown at you so quickly.
00:45:48
Speaker
There's no way you're going to remember it and then you're going to be on a job three, three jobs from now. So you're going to have a survey job first and then you might have a couple, you know, testing excavation jobs.
00:46:00
Speaker
And then you're gonna go back to survey and you're gonna remember, oh my goodness, I can't remember what, oh, I know there was something I should remember that I'm supposed to be doing during survey, but you can't for the life of you remember. By having that field book, it allows you to go back and to review before you start that second survey job. And then another advantage of that or benefit to having your own field notebook is making sure that you write down the names of every single person you work with
00:46:29
Speaker
so that the next time you go into a job, you remember. Everybody loves to know that they were remembered, you know. And remembering names is a really important skill to have in a professional career. And then also, actually, maybe a few notes of, you know, this is what this crew supervisor likes to see. And the more that you do that, the more you customize your approach in the field, the more successful you're going to be because it really is
00:46:58
Speaker
Getting jobs, you have some of the best archaeologists out there that have a hard time connecting and relating and communicating their skills to those that hire. And because of that, they don't get the best jobs. The people that get the best jobs usually are the ones that are very good at making those connections. And the one way to do that is to be very mindful of every experience that you have.
00:47:24
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's really great advice. I remember I was doing some project this last year, I was transcribing old field notes from around the 60s and 80s at my school. And I remember going for like, I don't, I think there were a couple of forms, whatever archaeologists were doing this, they really hand wrote their own stuff and I'd go for like,
00:47:48
Speaker
five pages of cursive handwriting, like the most detailed, intricate stuff. It was very fun. That is, especially nowadays when cursive people, they're not even learning cursive, let alone having to read it. I know that's always a challenge. But believe me, if you can read cursive, especially when you start doing desk work, that's actually going to be a very important skill, because there's a lot of permits, a lot of old permits, a lot of
00:48:14
Speaker
old archival data that you have to read people's handwritings and there's a lot of people that can't do it. So believe it or not, something that simple could actually get you a job or more work.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:48:26
Speaker
Well, Tallulah, I just want to say thank you so much, number one, for listening, number two, for reaching out, and number three, for willing to join us today. It's been an absolute pleasure. I'm really excited
00:48:37
Speaker
I hope you stay in contact with us and let us know how you and your friend are doing and please don't ever hesitate. We do have that member access through APN and that you can reach out and chat with us anytime. We try to stay on there and engage with all of our listeners.
00:48:56
Speaker
regardless, never hesitate to reach out. And then maybe in a little while we can do a recap and see how you're doing. And if you have any more perspectives in your growth and thank you. Yeah, no, for sure. Thank you for having me.
00:49:16
Speaker
That's it for another episode of the CRM Archaeology Podcast. Links to some of the items mentioned on the show are in the show notes for this podcast, which can be found at www.arcpodnet.com slash CRMARC Podcast. Please comment and share anywhere you see the show. If you'd like us to answer a question on a future episode, email us. Use the contact form on the website or just email chris at archaeologypodcastnetwork.com. Support the show and the network at arcpodnet.com slash members. Get some swag and extra content while you're there. Send us show suggestions and interview suggestions.
00:49:46
Speaker
We want this to be a resource for field technicians everywhere and we want to know what you want to know about. Well, thanks everyone for joining us this week and thanks also to the listeners for tuning in and we'll see you in the fields. Goodbye. Bye. Bye. Goodbye.
00:50:07
Speaker
And this episode was produced by Chris Webster from his RV Traveling America, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.