Transcript
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Speaker: Adrian, it's time now to take a look at the season finale, episode seven of The Last of Us, season two on HBO. What did you think of this particular episode, sir?
Speaker: Simon, I feel like I got whiplash. Because we went from the best episode of the ah season to the worst episode of the show by far, in my personal opinion.
Speaker: Whoa. Interesting. I think the best part of this episode... um or the best parts of this episode was the previously on leading into this episode and and how was good, wasn't it? It was really cool.
Speaker: what ah What a neat, the way it begins is incredible. It was incredibly well edited. um The first scene um with two characters specifically going through some hardships.
Speaker: And then the last two scenes of the episode, um the end, yeah, the the end, I think was really good. um The in-between, i would go as far to say was pretty awful, actually.
Speaker: have a lot of issues with it. And this is actually probably the first time that it's not just because they changed a bunch of stuff from the game. It's... because a lot of things actually don't make sense.
Speaker: And one of my points that I made in the past as well, um, how this, this show is made for a dumber audience compared to the audience of the game was the most prevalent.
Speaker: Um, things are so on the nose. I, yeah, i I completely disagree with that sentiment. Yeah. I really hated it. Um, so that sentiment, I can't disagree more. I feel like it,
Speaker: It doesn't explain enough, actually. it's That's interesting. yeah I don't even know what you're referring to. I'll point it out. Obviously, we'll dive into it. Yeah, like I'll tell you like what was so on the nose and like very ham-fisted in nature. and Man, I was left incredibly disappointed.
Speaker: um Okay, good to know. I didn't see that. Okay, all right. Well, i I should give some context, I suppose. This is obviously episode seven. It's it's directed by lesser-known director...
Speaker: Whoa. and ni Nina Lopez Corrado is her name. And this is written by Hallie Gross, Neil Druckmann, and Craig Mazin again, just like the last episode was, which is your favorite episode of the show overall, ah which is interesting too.
Speaker: So yeah, Nina Lopez Corrado, it's hard to really put a pin in the things she's done for me. Like I've seen some of the things I think she's directed, but it's not they're not... huge things i made a mistake by the way when we were talking privately i said that she directed episode seven of uh season one she didn't don't know why i said that i took that out of the by the way i took that out of our review okay um so so that i i clarified is that what you're about to say sorry you put your hand no i was gonna say like we made the mistake last week as well we called we were saying hayley gross i knew it was hallie
Speaker: I knew it. I watched the documentary of The Last Person Part 2, but you said it was such conviction. I was like, oh, maybe I'm wrong. And I just went. Well, I said Holly Gross the episode before. Oh, just only reason i said The only reason I said Haley Gross is because I looked it up on Google again and gave me the wrong pronunciation.
Speaker: it's always gonna It's always got to get go that way, you know? Yeah, i looked it up and it it and it read it to me. I'm like, I swear to God that would be Hallie. Oh, well, I guess that's right. And then and then I listened to an ah interview ah with Neil Druckmann and I was like, yeah, I thought it was Hallie. Oops.
Speaker: Oh, well, that's why I said it. That's why it's like a flip flop back and forth. Anyway, yeah, that's what you're going to point out. Nothing to do with what I'm saying. just Okay, well, that's, ah that's pretty much Oh, actually, that's not what was gonna say. I will say some of the acting this in this episode was ah pretty great.
Speaker: And I don't want to spoil anything. So I won't get there. But there's some really, really great moments. Yeah, in particular. And so I'll mention that. Yeah. and And again, like everything that stands in the previous episodes, that was good, like in terms of set design and everything like that was was really good.
Speaker: I can't complain about that. I think, again, i do agree. The acting was pretty great in some parts. um But yeah, i have I have a lot of negatives in this episode and and i'm I'm shocked.
Speaker: and It's funny. The set design aspect is good in some aspects. There's some parts of it, though. I find that the CG is kind of throws me off a little bit in terms of the city shots. It's always been like that, though. This whole show from season one to season two, it doesn't matter.
Speaker: I find that it's like the the shots of the city with the overgrown buildings. and i just I just kind of suspension of disbelief type situation. It's like seeing Indiana Jones. Yeah. ah in the in the Dial of Destiny and you're seeing the young Indiana Jones in that movie and you're like, okay, it's fine. I get used to it in a few minutes. It's a little bit on Candy Valley, but you know, it's fine because they de-aged Harrison Ford in that movie.
Speaker: Spoilers. spoilers He's in that movie. Harrison Ford. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Yeah. um He is. Sorry. ah Sorry to spoil that for you. But yeah, that's it. That's ah that's it for the non-spoiler review for us. But yeah. Okay. Moving on.
Speaker: Moving on, Adrian, to the spoiler portion of this A Closer Look episode. Let's get into it. Let's just throw it to you because you're super. I think you're amped and raring to grow go. Yeah. I just I don't really know where to start. Yeah.
Speaker: I guess one where I was referring to the ham fisted nature of this episode and it's with the lead up to Jesse's death. Jesse finds out Dean is pregnant and on quite literally two separate occasions, he says, I can't die because I'm going to be a dad twice.
Speaker: And then multiple times throughout the episode, he says, we can't die here in Seattle. Like as a group. Yeah. i knew I knew he was going to get his face fucking shot off.
Speaker: I played the game. Well, yeah. But even from the perspective of not knowing that it was coming, they were telegraphing his death. It was so un-nuanced, I guess is the best way to put put it.
Speaker: It was just so like in your face and so ham-fisted. And I genuinely think that's just bad writing. Yeah. i don't I don't know. I don't know really agree. But yeah. Okay. Yeah, I just found that absolutely absurd. And it was quite frustrating, in in my opinion.
Speaker: And I don't know if you picked up on this as well. There's a couple of scenes in this episode, one in particular, that where it really shined, where the editing of the episode seemed off. And what I mean by editing is how it was cut.
Speaker: So there's a scene where... oops ellie and jesse leave and they're like in like a it's like pouring they go into like this car park or whatever right right and then they're like oh shit we got to hide behind this car and then wolves come in chasing a seraphite yeah ah ellie for whatever reason wants to help this seraphite even though she knows what this like who the seraphites are at this point because they shot fucking dean in the leg Which is stupid for multiple reasons, ah in my opinion. But whatever. He was kid. was child.
Speaker: But here he was – looked older than her. Like almost the same age as her. don't know. I mean everyone looks older than her, I guess. Yeah. Touche. Bella Ramsey looks pretty young. so And there's you know six of them and she's like, oh, we can take them.
Speaker: Like you're so stupid. They make Ellie so dumb. And Jesse stops her. And then literally it feels like a second later, like Jesse stops her and then Ellie still gets up and walks out. And I was like, oh my God, I guess they're doing it.
Speaker: And it's like, no, the wolves are all gone. They already left. And I'm like, wait, how much time has passed? Did they literally all six of them leave in a span of a second and not even like turn around? And then they were fast, but sure. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, that's a – Yeah, i did notice that too. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. notice that. It's little quick. looked like she was chasing after them, but but Jesse stopped her is what it kind of felt like. But that's a directing choice, I think, not editing. But yeah. Yeah. um And yeah, i just think that was that was poorly done.
Speaker: Then there's a couple of other kind of um pieces that really... Sorry, go ahead. If I may. Yeah, please, please, please. Sorry, I'm taking it over. There's a lot to go through, so I want to have to jump back and forth. Yeah, please.
Speaker: What was the first point you made when you were talking about... um oh Jesse being like, i'm I got to live because I'm going to die. thing. My fiance never played the game. Didn't predict that. So I get it. You're biased though. that That to me is your your bias is showing in this particular case. I think that that ah felt more...
Speaker: relevant because they are being chased by literally two factions in this that are running this this city and they're warring factions that are literally chasing each other so they're going to miss mistake each of them for the other faction um if the wolves would mistake ellie and team for obviously the seraphites and the seraphites would confuse ellie and team for the wolves so that's not that crazy um that perspective also We don't know what the close calls that Jesse's referring to are and that they've had. They literally had close calls. He says that, to him and him and ah Tommy.
Speaker: And so I think that that's actually some some of the episodes that's kind of interesting is that this this episode is missing a lot of context. And I actually really like that aspect. i initially did not. But then I realized, obviously, the following the game's plot in some aspect. And we're missing a perspective.
Speaker: And that's part of the... the game in general. But I just wanted to say that I know that you didn't like that aspect of the the idea that he telegraphed potentially his death. My fiance did not see that coming and she had not played the game.
Speaker: So you and your fiance, I assume, watched the show together. You both played the game. Different perspective, I feel like. It's funny, again, we talk about how we have different perspectives, like watching it in this household versus yours. But obviously, the show is very much about perspective too. So the The audience's perspective and the perspective changes in the show are a big part of The Last of Us. is so It's a funny funny thing how that works. But anyway, yeah, I'll just say that. But yeah, go on. yeah I'll let you continue. I just want to stop you if I have more to add to what you're saying.
Speaker: Yeah, for sure. so um I guess to talk about a positive, I like the scene of how Jesse finds out Dean is pregnant. um Like having to push through the arrow, being like, I know where the arteries are, like shut up.
Speaker: i'm Like offering her a drink, her saying no. I think that was done really well. Again, that's one of my favorite scenes from this episode. um But then there's – this is – This is where it comes in where things stop making sense because of changes they made at the start of the game.
Speaker: Sorry, at the start of the season. Sorry. Yeah. And most notably, it's Tommy is a sniper. Like in the game, he's like he's sniping people. Right. Yeah.
Speaker: But the reason Tommy is in Seattle Is because he's actually the first one to leave. And Ellie and Dina follow him. and Right? Yeah. Tommy is there when Joel dies. He knows how Manny looks like. He knows how Mel looks like. Owen.
Speaker: um Abby. He knows how all of them look like. Right? Right. And I think maybe like during the scene in episode two or three, i think it's three, where they're having like the city council meeting. They might talk about the wolves. Right.
Speaker: But that's about it. They're like, it's a big faction. They're called wolves. And i I can't even remember. I wanted to double check, but I didn't. If they actually mentioned the wolves, right? But Tommy's on his own.
Speaker: And they hear on the radio, it's like, hey, there's a sniper shooting at us. The wolves are saying this on the radio. they're He's pinning us down. Right. Why was Tommy shooting at the wolves and pinning them down?
Speaker: He doesn't know how any of the crew looks like. His point, the reason he's there is to find Ellie and Dina. Correct. Why is he shooting them? Exactly why? No reason.
Speaker: No, no, not no reason. Oh, you think there's going to an interesting perspective? Of course there is. There's perspective, 100% change of perspective. And so yeah it's funny. We watched, I think it was on the same interview we watched with Neil Druckmann.
Speaker: And Neil Druckmann said something that I thought was really, that I thought was very insightful. He said, The thing that fans are doing is they're they're jumping the gun. We're changing things and we're changing the order of things and they're expecting certain scenes to happen before they happen.
Speaker: And as a result, they're kind of being very critical about things that haven't happened yet. it's it's It's actually similar with the flashbacks. that They're doing this thing where they're like flipping the order of the flashbacks. like The last episode I think is brilliant because the flashbacks are kind of largely in the in the same place.
Speaker: And I kind of i really liked the way they did that. And it really i feel like it had more impact on an emotional level for episode six I'm talking. And this, you can't judge it until until we see what happens. so Two years?
Speaker: i' Crazy. So this is a crazy, this is my one criticism of this episode, actually. I actually largely like this episode, but it's like, they're they're asking you, the ah the the creators, the writers, they're asking you, trust us.
Speaker: and you're And you're like, How long am I going to wait here? thats They constantly ask you to trust them the whole season. and And I think I have a feeling that this show is going to go down in history on a perspective of watching people watching it, not liking it that much.
Speaker: But when they go back and watch it, I think they're going to like it a lot more in retrospect. I think that's something that, especially with this particular episode, I really think that's not, I really think that that will happen, especially for this episode. Because this episode, lot of cliffhangers and a lot of threads that are not like pulled out very completely.
Speaker: There's a lot going on. And it's like, this is Ellie's perspective very much so in the entire episode. And I think that Because of obviously, and I think the most most brilliant choice probably they made on ah on ah on a plotting perspective on like how how it was structured is at the very end of the episode, they show off Seattle day one again to make it clear.
Speaker: We're sure we clearly going to go back in time and give you a different perspective. I think that's super important because if they hadn't done that, I'm not sure. Trust us is ah is a tough one. In terms of what it is, but like apart from episode six, i I thought there was good episodes in this season, but like I think I've been fairly negative on it as a whole.
Speaker: right And it's like, I don't know if I can trust you right now. I got to wait two fucking years for this answer. Dude, who knows? Maybe in two years or more, I'm going to eat my words and go back and be like, actually, I was wrong and season two is great.
Speaker: But right now, that is how I feel. And it's like, i I can't assume the best when they have proven yeah multiple times. I do think your bias is still showing though. Like in my fiance, I thought this was quite good.
Speaker: Like overall, I was quite down on it too, because I know what happens in the game. And so there's elements on like, what's going on? Tommy's sniping. There's no context. And then Tommy shows up and picks up Ellie and it's like, what, what?
Speaker: It's kind of like, oh, what's happening? But then I gave it a second and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, take a step back. Like, you know the game a little bit. I know it really well, but I i haven't played it in five years. So I'm like, and like do i not am I misremembering? And I'm like, I don't think so. But I think it doesn't matter because again, this is a show. It's not the game. And it we I just have to keep doing that step back.
Speaker: Now it's going difficult because I'm going to play the game in between season two and season three. So I'm i'm curious to see how my perspective might change ah with that in mind too, knowing this story a bit more intimately, having played it closer to season three, I think.
Speaker: yeah Or maybe not, because again, as you mentioned, two years is crazy. This is a crazy cliffhanger for a two-year ah two-year that gap of time for production. I will say something too. The game does some similar things with cliffhangers, actually, which i I remembered. And I don't want to get into it because that's a spoiler. But they they do some similar things to what this episode does. And I'm like, you know what? that was That was actually a frustration I had with the game at some point. But it's a good frustration because there's payoff.
Speaker: And the fact that you can keep playing the game over a number of hours, you don't have to wait. It was still a long which is a long time for payoff in some cliffhanger aspects of it. They cliffhanger things and then you're you're really hanging on to that cliff for a long time. like We're talking hours though. so like this is example This is an example of why I despise week-to-week episodes.
Speaker: Bring it back around, you know? i just don't – because the Netflix has like kind of pioneered this idea of doing these like but drop a lump sum of the U episode, you know whatever, U season four, all the episodes at once. And I feel like that's beneficial. I'm not watching yeah right now, by the way.
Speaker: but i mean i'm just i gonna go around I think that that is a better way to do it. Or even Andor. Andor is the best method. I think doing three by three episodes, what a great way to release a season. I think it's just great. And this is the opposite of that. Although Andor, we did have to wait.
Speaker: But the end of season one very satisfying. They could have ended it there and i would have been like, oh wow, you just made a masterpiece. No problem. But yeah yeah yeah, I agree with that. It's crazy to make ah an audience wait that long. But matt Remember Lost, you know, season one, the finale, man, like what the heck?
Speaker: It's like, we're going back to network TV in terms of the family and lost at least was every year. And this is not probably going to a year's time for production. Yeah. Lost was also 20 episodes each season. So it's like, you yeah you only really had to wait like a half a year, just over a half a year until the next season starts. Right.
Speaker: So, uh, right, right, right. Yeah. Cause this is seven. up Yeah. That's good point too. So like, again, um ah but yeah. Okay. So to move on. Yeah. Yeah. This is it Let me know if I'm being biased game wise here. I don't think I am here.
Speaker: so The scene where Ellie goes on the boat because she sees like, again, ah Jesse and her at the top. Just is like we got to go find Tommy. um And Ellie sees the the the thingy, the twirly thingy. I forget what there is well Ferris wheel. Thank you.
Speaker: And the aquarium. And she's like, oh, that's where Abby is based on the information she got from Nora. Whale wheel, man. Whale wheel. Whale wheel, dude. Right? So she sees it. And this plays out quite similarly in the game as well, which I like. Jesse's like, we got to go get Tommy. Ellie's like, no, I know where Abby is. We're going to go get her.
Speaker: um yeah Tommy will be fine. And they split up. And then Ellie goes on this boat. But before she goes on the boat, she sees the wolves drive up and they're about to go to an island in the distance. And like, oh, what what island is that? I wonder.
Speaker: Right? Yes. If you're going keep something a secret, you should have kept that a street secret. You shouldn't have Ellie go out into the middle, a wave topple her over. She lands on this island where Seraphites find her, drag her away, literally have her hanging, and then explosions go off in the distance. And the wolves are like, leave her. It's fine. No, no, the Seraphites.
Speaker: Oh, yeah. Sorry. No, no, no. The explosions go off in the distance and you can assume it's the wolves that know you just saw. you wolves say. Oh, sorry. Sorry. My bad. My bad. You're getting worked up. I get it. You don't like this episode. Yeah. Yeah. You're saying the Seraphite slay lever. Yeah.
Speaker: Right. Exactly. And instead of killing her. Yeah. They're like, oh, just leave her. you She's already hanging there. She's choking out. Even the kid was like fucking rip open her stomach. it's good.
Speaker: And they just leave her. they They thought that she may have been a wolf. It doesn't matter if she's saying I'm not a wolf. They thought that. like Why would you just leave this random woman who has a gun nearby?
Speaker: she could have let her go. They all start running. She runs there, picks up the gun, just bam, bam, bam, kills them all. That was dumb. Yeah, they didn't even check for a gun, really, did they? They didn't check to see if she had a gun. The gun drops, like, ah i don't know, like 10 feet away from where she's about to be hung.
Speaker: Right, To fall out of her pocket. But it doesn't matter. They didn't drop it. That was the interesting thing. Like, they didn't check. They didn't search her. They're not very thorough. guess. And that was... That was one of the dumbest fucking scenes I've ever seen in a show. It makes no sense that you would land on this island and then be taken. And then last second, they're like, let's not kill her.
Speaker: Why? Rip her open. That is plot convenience. The only reason that scene was put in is for the audience to know that's where the wolves went. Again, a lack of nuance. If you're going to wait two years just to reveal something, reveal That's the most nuance, actually. That's that's nuance right there.
Speaker: Because there's no context. When there's no context, that is nuance. But I agree with you. Why wouldn't they kill her? Yeah, yeah. that That part I agree with. But I don't agree with what you're saying because like why did you even have to show that at all?
Speaker: it's so It's so chaos. It's chaotic. yeah Again, you know – this is a little bit biased because you know where they are what's happened. you got You have that context whereas people don't. There's this idea that it's chaos. is it's It's a rainstorm. She gets hit by a wave. She's swimming back to the island. But why didn't they kill her? Yeah, that's a good point. makes no sense.
Speaker: They're incredibly disorganized. But it's like, like leave her. like You're not really going to leave her. That's just like... I i don't know why they did that, though. if that's That's where this episode falters in some way. It felt a little bit rushed.
Speaker: And I don't know why. like Because you could have had her escape in some way. Like, you guys come with me. And then then you could just like do the killing like with one guy. And then she can escape or something. But you you have no... that's Yeah, that I agree with that. That's just stupid. It doesn't make any sense. Just have the kid...
Speaker: And she's telling you she's not even from the wolves in the first place. And you're just going to, it seems a little. like And not only that, we've already seen the Seraphites gut someone that I guess said that like, oh, i I'm not part of the wolves anymore. Like I want, like, I don't, I don't care about them. We saw that in the episode.
Speaker: It's stupid, man. I think though that that's so if they're taking it slow, there's something like, it's almost like a ritual killing or something like that. that That's maybe part of it. It's like, they don't care, but why wouldn't you don't care? Like you're letting this person go. Who's ah an enemy. They can go, they can go back now to tell, tell the enemy, the wolves, your location. If you think it's a wolf, it's just, it, that is, that is a flawed moment in the episode for sure.
Speaker: Incredibly flawed. i was i literally was shaking my head. I was like, oh my God. There are more potholes in Until Dawn. So I don't know if you really don't like this. Let's... Yeah, until Dawn was more entertaining though, Simon. um I disagree. Wholeheartedly, but yeah. So Ellie gets back on the boat and then she goes to the aquarium where she sees Owen and Mel.
Speaker: Yeah. this This is a biased moment for me. I'll be totally honest with you. Okay. In the game, Ellie's walking through and there's a dog that runs at her and she kills a dog. And it that at that moment, you're playing the game and you're like, oh my God, why are you killing a dog? This poor little creature.
Speaker: And she continues going and then sees Owen and Mel standing there. Right. Plays out fairly similarly from the game. And this is actually a change I quite like.
Speaker: That was a set design was good in this yeah in this sequence. Wonderful. Again, this yeah, everything everything about it. I thought that this was actually a fairly good scene. But yeah, then there's the part where she goes, she has the gun, telling Owen to show her where the map is. Owen grabs a gun and then Ellie shoots.
Speaker: Owen threw the throat and then the bullet grazes Mel's neck mer and where she starts bleeding out. where I'm like, oh my God, this is dumb. But... I do really like that Mel falls to the ground. She opens her stomach.
Speaker: She's like, hey, come over here quickly. You got to cut the baby out. It's, that's brutal. It's sad. Yeah. It's really messed up. But apart from that, I don't think that scene is particularly great. I think it's done much better in the game. Again, this is my bias showing, Simon.
Speaker: I will admit. And Ellie seems way more brutal. Ellie's, by the end of this arc, and as you play as Ellie, I... hated what Ellie was doing. And I was begging her to stop in this, in the show.
Speaker: I'm not really begging her to to stop. I actually don't like Ellie in the show, not because she's doing a bunch of bad things, yeah but because she's stupid. she's She's written dumb and immature. Yeah, she's immature. She's naive. She's careless. She's not the same Ellie from the game. Yeah, I know. I agree with that, but I don't think it's worse.
Speaker: It's just different it's from my perspective. She's a very careless person who's like willing to jump the gun and just like very emotional and very rash. she's like She's like Romeo in Romeo and Juliet.
Speaker: like she She just doesn't have... She doesn't think before she acts like ah constantly. she She seems to have like a good heart with like good intentions, but her actions speak way louder than words. And she's like... She's very... like it's It's crazy. She's... again there's even ah She's making evil acts very quickly and very swiftly because she's being forced into them because she doesn't go into anything with planning.
Speaker: But I like that aspect of the show. It's a different take. It's kind of a neat idea. It's not it's not changing the the like the overall storyline fundamentally. it's just It's a different way to do it. She's learning. she's like It's almost like a coming of age story into a very negative way. She's like learning to become this this kind of bad person.
Speaker: But she feels bad about everything she's doing. Yeah. She even talks to Dina like about her her killing Norn and I hit her blah blah blah. That makes sense. And then she was like. is taking charge.
Speaker: But then she talks about maybe Joel did deserve what happened to him and maybe what I'm doing is wrong. And she's like again spelling it out. And it's just like it's. Ah, man, it's frustrating. But that's not frustrating. That's what you would do. She's got someone to confide in.
Speaker: i don't know why that's – why is that a problem though? That's because that's not spelling it out. that's just That's just the TV show being a TV show. I feel like youre you have hours and hours to play a character and you get to play that person. You get to survive as them in the case of – obviously as Abby. And there's, there's a different perspective in the beginning of the show, like the beginning of the game is an example. And in this perspective, you have Ellie and Dina traveling together. They're talking constantly to each other. And there's a lot of like visceral, visceral reactions over periods of time. You get to see these actions and you can see the grief on her face because there's like hours in game and game time.
Speaker: It's a different type of, It's a different type of vibe. You can't quite – This show is not explaining enough, especially this episode. was completely like it just failed to explain many things.
Speaker: it It was just like – I don't know. That to me is not ah lacking of nuance. It's just the only problem for me was the episode was rushed. Like I thought the emotionality, that the emotional scenes between Ellie and Jesse are really good. They're building a character development and then they kill him. I think that's like, wow.
Speaker: that's I don't know. That's kind of, it's that's really heartfelt. They kept building it on his character that we already we already kind of got to know him already, but we got to hear from him even more before they again snapped the pencil, as Jeff Winger would say.
Speaker: I thought that that was good. to Honestly, there's this element to Ellie's – Craig Mason said this was like the Empire Strikes Back of this story, and it is kind of like that. like Jessie's standing with Ellie on this place, and she's look looking with binoculars.
Speaker: She's got this temptation to go on a revenge mission instead of going to potentially save Tommy. She's making the bad choice like Luke. it's kind of That is the Empire Strikes Back moment. She goes the wrong direction, and it ends in a very sour place at the very end of the episode.
Speaker: So it it it does work. it Largely for me, I don't know. The only problem is I agree with you on the Seraphite situation. that that That doesn't make sense. And that that's that's a consequence of of of writing it to – the pacing is the paintinging's fine actually. But the it's you needed another scene in there that you just failed to put in there.
Speaker: But she's very immature and she's very rash. and she's very That's just a different character, right? She's just not the same character as the dude. Yeah, fair enough. That's okay, because I'm good with that. Like, just write it a little bit different. that's That should be okay. Yeah, I just i just feel like like they're very scared of making us as the viewer dislike Ellie that much. And I think, like, based on her actions... You don't dislike her from her actions?
Speaker: i I dislike her because she's an idiot and that she's written dumb. But in the game, as an example, again, I'm being biased. I'm going acknowledge it, blah, blah, blah, blah. blah you know I dislike Ellie because of what she is doing. And me as the player, I want her to stop doing these things by the end of it.
Speaker: She made these choices. This character made these choices as as much as they are rash. She killed a ah pregnant woman and she killed... like She killed all these people. She killed three people.
Speaker: Four people, sorry. She killed that random guy in the radio tower. yeah She killed Nora brutally, to be fair, which I loved that scene. Right. She killed Owen and then Mel by accident.
Speaker: Yeah. Because the bullet grazed her in the neck, which was fun. I think that was stupid. That's a lot people. Are you saying that's not enough people? i think she should have 17 more people at least, Simon. least. At least.
Speaker: um But what's your point about this? Is that actually your point that she should have killed more people? Not necessarily more people. I just feel like her actions should have like her drive and conviction for this revenge should have driven her to a point of just arguably no return.
Speaker: She's not. But that's not the same character. She's not the size same character. She is the same character. She isn't because we're watching a TV show. It's written differently. It's just not the same.
Speaker: Yeah. It's not identical. that's okay. And that's okay. Bad changes because of it. And again, I don't agree. I dislike it greatly. And this episode, I just think really hammered to home the point. Again, who knows? Two years from now, Simon, maybe I'll be eating my words and being like, these changes were great. They're adding context to why yo Tommy's a fucking sniper.
Speaker: Against these wolves. That's going to happen 100%. I would bet you right now that will happen. But that's not going to change your opinion about... Let's bet $6.78. Ellie is stupider, yeah. She's she's not... She's dumb. She's no life experience. How would the hell would she have... Where would she get the life experience from?
Speaker: She's living in ah in ah in a secluded town and she lived with a guy who's very ruthless and more murders people on the road. Like, it's not... I don't know. Where's she going to get that context from? Where's she going to get that life experience? she's She didn't. she's She's like learning it as she goes. she's under she's Which is actually quite realistic. I don't know what – you're not going to go in and be like, oh, I just killed a guy. Oh, that's fine.
Speaker: No problem. I just killed two people. Oh, oh well. it's it's It's scarring. It's literally scarring. Yeah, fair enough. I just don't think it – I don't think it – Maybe there's also the issue with the same emotions.
Speaker: The Naughty Dog Uncharted syndrome where it's like Nathan Drake kills 155 people and and there's no consequences. It's like, oh, okay, great. I just murdered somebody with a gun for the 55th time today.
Speaker: like That's not normal. and the It's a game, so you do that more so in the game. but it's it's and It feels more impact for sure versus Uncharted. That's 100%. There's an impact there. 100 it matters but it is she's very ruthless as you as you play her in the game and that's that's okay but she's like raw evil is that what it is like it's it's it's it's not i don't know it's she's not raw evil she has drive and she has conviction which she greatly to murder random people who have nothing to do with her drive is to kill fucking abby and she's doing these awful things to get there
Speaker: Right. She is. Yeah. She's doing awful things. But they're not going that way because she doesn't – How did she become a killing machine? At what point? I don't know. They could have added context. It's kind of unrealistic in the game, to be honest.
Speaker: It's kind of unrealistic. it i we can i can completely believe it because I'm i'm playing the game and i and i there's a suspension of disbelief. But it – I mean, she's not that big of a person.
Speaker: So how did – Like in terms of stature. Like how does she do it? It just starts. what ninja stars or something have her do have her be brutal have her use her knife a little bit more i don't know yeah yeah it's not an action i think like the other like part of it is it's not an action show like and it's not designed to be and i think that's the kind of a good thing i mean she could have murdered more people but i don't know if that is actually your criticism If I'm understanding it correctly. No, my criticism is that I hated Ellie for a totally different. Well, I didn't hate her, but I you wanted her like you wanted to be more hardened.
Speaker: Yeah, I just like what she was doing in the game and disliked her for different reasons. And as a result, those reasons made me sympathize with Abby a little bit more once we get to Abby's story.
Speaker: But now I'm not necessarily going to sympathize with Abby more. I'm just going to be like Ellie's a fucking idiot and I just don't like her. If you were in that situation, you don't think you'd find yourself in that spot where you accidentally kill those people because they're grabbing a gun and you don't know what you're doing? You have no idea what you're doing at all?
Speaker: You're just going on this mission? You're 19 years old and you're the not that? The Owen situation? Yeah. No, and I'm not saying that's necessarily bad. Like her shooting Owen, I think the same thing happens in the game. That's okay. Yeah. um and Which particular moment is bothering you?
Speaker: I think it's just the thing as a whole, dude. It's just bringing it all together to get to this end point. To get to the end point where Abby is in the theater. She fucking shoots Jesse in the face, which is crazy. I love that. yeah His body even falls the same way as they do in the game. They kept that pretty much the same.
Speaker: Then Tommy's lying on the ground. And um just telling Ellie to let go. Ellie pops out, blah, blah, blah, blah. Gun goes up, cut to black, Seattle day one. Again, that end ending scene was fantastic.
Speaker: I just think there was a lot of bad in this. um And just like- again i'd be i'm beyond annoyed about it i think this was bad hopefully i'm wrong simon hopefully you're right with your optimism that in two years two plus years from now when we watch season three i'm going optimism um you know the only thing is not going fixed for you it's not just you have to accept it or just don't watch season three i guess don't it won't be fixed if that's a ruined character for you she's the main character so what are you what are going to do at least for this season so
Speaker: well also she's dead about like tommy maybe she's dead yeah who knows she got her fucking hate face blown off the shot that's that's a fun like fade to black they just shoot they were not fade it's not a fade at all that's cut to black um it that's our only that's the greatest cliffhanger ever for for people who haven't watched the played the game it's just incredibly harsh but Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't think there it will be redeemed for you on the LE front.
Speaker: So, like, that's not going to happen. Yeah, i'm I'm really hoping they don't mess up the Abbey front because that's actually my favorite part of the game is is that latter half. So, let's hope they don't mess that up.
Speaker: I'll just say the last thing before I go. um i thought this was a strong episode. I thought it was emotional. I thought it worked in terms of the relationship building between the characters. I will say one of the strongest parts of the episode as well is like when they reintroduce Abby. I think Caitlin Dever's performance is excellent.
Speaker: It's the best part of the episode maybe um in terms of an overall like moment to moment. and There's just a ah raw emotion that – Caitlin Devers shown and in the few scenes that she's been in this season.
Speaker: ah That's really interesting. I like this idea that they emphasize these perspectives. Again, we talk about how we have different perspectives watching the show as an audience. But the various factions, like the Wolves, Ellie's crew from Jackson, and the Seraphites, they all have a different perspective. They all see the opposing team, the Seraphites, seeing the Wolves as this villain, and they're the heroes of their own story.
Speaker: And that's the way Ellie sees Abby and vice versa. And I think, or at least Abby sees Joel. um But I think that that's an important aspect of it. And I think that when you look at the relationship between Jesse and Ellie and how they're connecting in certain ways, and Jesse's like kind of this moral person who's who cares ah about his the people he loves.
Speaker: So does Ellie though, which is Interesting, but they just care about the people they love and they fight for them in a different way. And Ellie's just so cha chaotic and she just doesn't know herself. And I think that's that's the main thing I feel like I i just i landed on with this episode. She's so reckless.
Speaker: She has a good heart way deep down, but she's not... She has no conviction because she doesn't know who she really is. And she makes these stupid decisions based on what she thinks might be right.
Speaker: Like she's going to go save that seraphite boy who's being attacked by the wolves. It doesn't make any sense. It's rash. It's stupid. And it's going to put Jesse at risk, but she's going to do it anyway. It doesn't make any sense because she's just not a thoughtful person in that regard. And she's not mature enough.
Speaker: Whereas Jesse, again, knows who he is. He's the future of Jackson. And that's an important aspect too. And so to see him die as well, and that's at the end of the episode, after seeing so him on screen so much and connecting with Ellie in the way that he does, is even harder to take as an audience.
Speaker: But again, i kind of like how they established who Ellie, Bella Ramsey's Ellie is in this. She's not the Ellie from the game. And I think that that works within the confines of the show in which they're building.
Speaker: So that's kind of where I landed on this episode. I liked it largely, but I just wanted to throw this out there because I feel like you talked a lot about how you didn't like it. And I, and I want to make sure that I didn't just rebuttal you and and actually gave a perspective of what I believe it to be. And I think that they, again, I mentioned this before, but the Tommy thing will be explained, but that's it.
Speaker: Anyway, that's it. Let's review it. ah Let's actually give our review scores. I'll let you go first. over first 3.5 out of 4. Out of 4. Wow. 3.5 out of 5. wow three point five out of five Well, I forgot where scores are are landing. 2.5 out of 5 is my score.
Speaker: ah Mine's a 2 out of 5. Okay, sounds good. 2 out of 5. It's bad. It's a bad episode. It's a bad episode. ah Of TV. Yeah, you you got me to lower my score. It was definitely a 4 going in. The only reason is the Seraphite situation is literally a plot hole because it doesn't logically make sense. You're in a war and it's pretty easy to slice someone open. Yeah. When they're they're hanging.
Speaker: Or just tie them up on the tree because you already have her hanging up. Just leave her. Just leave her there. and Well, no, you can't leave her there because there's a guy holding the rope. Oh. No, you can't. Simon, also just realized yeah when we give her score, we're not allowed to spoil things anymore.
Speaker: Oh, right. Okay, so we're going to score it again. Right now. Wait, before we score it again, just to say, like this the Seraphites have shown they're willing to kill people, not in a ritual setting as well.
Speaker: They'll fucking shoot you with a bow. They don't care. They'll just fucking murder you. So... Yeah, but it's hard to shoot some of the, but it takes so much time. They don't have guns. It's quicker to shoot some, they're trying to get out of there. That's the point of that scene that I can completely get, get, it's fine. But just leave one guy there. Oh yeah. Can you just tie to the tree? We're going to leave.
Speaker: That's all. That took the same amount of breath. you know They should have done that and then have Ellie fight fight the guy and kill him and then run off or something. Exactly what they should have done. Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly it. But they didn't they decided that they they wanted to make the runtime shorter or something.
Speaker: that That's a mistake. that's ah That's a legitimate mistake and that's why I took it down to score. Because I liked, again, the Tommy bit, I'm i'm completely confident. I hope you're right.
Speaker: I hope you're right. But of course I'm right. Where are the other characters? Where's Manny? Where are the other people that were introduced? Come on, dude. You gotta... Manny's apparently still with the wolves, like they said at the start of the episode.
Speaker: Yeah, he's with the wolves. Yeah. Fighting Tommy.
Speaker: Yeah, maybe. why Or any of the other characters. like there's like There's another... ah how i kill I hope we get the context. From that cottage. yeah I hope we get the context. But again, we got to wait two fucking years for that.
Speaker: yeah Maybe in two years, I'll change my opinion. But right now, no. The thing is, your main flaw is the Ellie thing, though. Your main concern is not – I don't think you're more concerned about Tommy. Maybe I'm wrong. I just think well you think she's too stupid for it to be – it's still a concern also the i think again the the ham-fisted nature of jesse being like gonna fucking die um and then i think the bad editing editing was a was was a moment there and then again the that's very tiny that's a seraphite thing that's the direction played played a factor um and again just like the lack of wanting people to hate ellie for for the the right reasons i don't know i just okay okay
Speaker: I respect your opinion. It's not a problem. So it's all good. Don't worry. Right on. Right on. I i respect yours. Yeah, you kind of said that with a little attitude. I'm not sure i'm not sorry you do.
Speaker: Okay, we got to end it for real though this is the longest episode for no reason. I don't even understand. you You hate it so much. Why are we even spending this much time talking about it? Okay. Because angry. Now I'm going to score this for real and it's going to show up now.
Speaker: That's why it didn't show up before, audience. ah That's why the score didn't show up because we can't spoil it after the score because I got to put a freaking bookmark in in the chapter chapter select for YouTube. Anyway, my score for this episode, Adrian, is – whoa.
Speaker: Why are you blue? Oh, Jesus. What's going on? my Oh, no. My score is a 3.5 out of 5.
Speaker: My friend Adrian, what is your score? It's You know what? Fuck it. It's gone down. No, I'm just kidding. It's a 2 out of 5. Yeah, okay. Good. Okay, 2 out of 5. That's 3.5, I believe, is, if I'm not mistaken, a 5.5 out of 10.
Speaker: Potatoes. Which actually makes it
Speaker: A rotten potato because everything under 60. Yeah. If we're following the the rotten tomatoes rules. but Okay. That's it. Potatoes. It's over. It's over. This is a long episode. I'm not even sure it was entertaining.
Speaker: So goodbye. Thank you for ah thank you for this review, Adrian. Thank you for being here. Thank you, audience, for watching us ah argue for at least 40 minutes of your time.
Speaker: Thank you so much. Good shit. Goodbye. Good shit. Take care.
