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Matthew Krishanu
185 Plays5 months ago
In this episode we discuss Matthew Krishanu's exhibition The Bough Breaks at Camden Art Centre, a place we adore. We chat about loss, childhood, overlapping times, grief and the colonial residue of authentic relationships filled with love.
We didn't always agree but that is the power of exhibitions: we shared diverging experiences, which made the episode even more compelling and at times hilarious. There a few hilarious anecdotes about 80's parenting - or lack thereof.
For more information about the exhibition: https://camdenartcentre.org/whats-on/matthew-krishanu-the-bough-breaks
Music by Sarturn.
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Transcript
Introduction to Exhibitionistas Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Hey, everyone. Welcome back. Emily here. So glad that you could join us. So, as you may have gathered from the title, we are looking at Matthew Krishno, his exhibition at the Camden Art Centre, The Bow Breaks.
Divergent Views on 'The Bow Breaks'
00:00:25
Speaker
So, this is an exhibition of painting, lots and lots of new works from the artist, which is pretty cool. And Joanna and I, didn't necessarily see eye to eye on it but I have to say this conversation for me was just really eye-opening in terms of you know seeing what Joanna saw and rethinking what I saw in light of it which is the beauty of talking about exhibitions right which is the beauty of art taking us to new places and bringing in new ideas for us to consider and deepening
00:00:59
Speaker
how we think and experience art and life, dare I say. So I hope that you enjoy it and thanks for listening.
00:01:15
Speaker
Welcome back to Exhibitionistas, the podcast where we go and see exhibitions, and hopefully you do too.
Revisiting the Podcast and Hosts' Introductions
00:01:21
Speaker
And we talk about them with you. Simple as that. So this week we're going to be looking at Matthew Krishna's soulful exhibition, The Bow Breaks, on display at the Camden Art Center. My name is Emily Harding. I'm an art lover and an exhibition goer. And hello, thanks for being here. I'm very happy to be visiting the Camden Art Centre with you. I love it so, so much. It's a peaceful building where I have seen some of the most exciting exhibitions in my life. My name is Joanna Pierre Nevis. I'm an independent writer and curator. And thanks, thank you for interacting with us on our Instagram account, by the way. We keep getting answers to our first question.
00:02:07
Speaker
Soon enough, we will post a new one. So meanwhile, if you don't follow us, please do. Our account is exhibitionistas underscore podcast. You can get info about upcoming episodes and you can comment not only on the questions asked, but also on the posts themselves. We're really interested in knowing what you think. in knowing if we forgot to mention something, or if you are excited about the information that we've shared in the podcast, or if you have something else to say, and who knows, maybe we'll read your contributions. So without further ado, let's get into it.
00:02:49
Speaker
Yeah, no, it has been absolutely brilliant to see some of the responses there. And it would be great like if there' is a there's a bit of controversy. You say that you you say that you know you loved it, but i i don't I didn't love it, or vice versa. I mean, let's get into the controversy of it. That's what it's all about, is having a good chat about what we've experienced at exhibitions.
Joanna's Cultural Experiences in Lisbon
00:03:15
Speaker
But so before we get into it, Joanna, What was your week in culture like? I think you've had a big one. Yes, it was a packed week. I've just arrived from Lisbon last night. I went there to have a meeting of the director of one of the most beautiful museums in Europe called MAT, which is the Museum of Art, Architecture and Technology, because I have an exhibition there next year with, it's a solo exhibition, so something close to our hearts.
00:03:47
Speaker
with Isabelle Ferreira. He was a French artist, second generation Portuguese immigration. um But she's based in France. She was born there. And so we went there to have a meeting. And then there was Arco Lisbon
Emily's Media Reviews: 'The Holdovers' and 'Big Swiss'
00:04:04
Speaker
as well. So the Art Fair, which was incredible. I have to say the quality is up there. So kudos to the organization. There were so many people um during the opening on the first day. And the following days, you know it was really, really packed with interesting people, people who were asking the right questions, the galleries were happy. But while I was in the plane, I reconnected with an old love. So that was my my weekend culture pick, top pick this week, New Yorker fiction podcasts, which sugar is incredible.
00:04:42
Speaker
right I remember us talking about it back in the day. You recommended it to me. and i Did I? I quickly devoured almost all of them. and It's one of those things that like when Peter is away, when he's away for a work. Yeah. Exactly. I fell asleep to it, and it is just the most wonderful thing. Yeah. or for my week So I watched The Holdovers. Did you watch this, Paul Giamatti? I did. Yeah, nominated for an Oscar. And it's one I've been wanting to watch for a while, because there was lots of buzz around it. Yeah. And just aesthetically, it looked really cool. It had a really distinct, very, very 70s style to it.
00:05:26
Speaker
And, you know, it had amazing performances. ah Divine Joy Randolph was particularly good. I wasn't bowled over by the movie. It felt too long. It was over two hours, I think. Really? It felt like something I'd seen before. curmudgeonly guy that Paul Giamatti often plays, but who has a tender underbelly somewhere. And sorry, this is going to be a huge spoiler for anybody who hasn't watched it. There's
Introduction to Matthew Krishno's Art
00:05:54
Speaker
like a Sacrifice he makes, he falls on a sword at the end of the movie for the sake of one of the boys that he's been put in charge of, one of his students. ah So the the whole thing is like they have to stay over at this private school over Christmas for all the boys that, you know, can't go home to their families over Christmas.
00:06:14
Speaker
And then, you know, most of them get sort of a free pass and leave with one of the other boys whose dad comes and picks them up, but there's just one boy left and that that's where sort of the the relationship blossoms and they have like a field trip to Boston and all this kind of stuff and they bond. And I don't know, like, so... You seem so enthralled by the film. It's contagious. Yeah. I don't know. I whipped out my iPad during it. Peter got, I think he gave it more of a chance than I did. And it's not as though it's a bad movie. It's not a bad movie. It's just, it didn't feel like it was sort of breaking new ground. And you know, Peter and I talked about it and it was just, there's this kind of sentimentality that's infused in it.
00:07:02
Speaker
that I didn't feel. I also read a novel, Big Swiss, by Jen Began. It was hilarious. oh It was so funny. I laughed out loud. Hilarious, no more. Tell me more. yeah Yeah. So my relationship to reading fiction is I read it before bed, which is usually like I struggle through a few pages before I just absolutely collapse. But I i was going to bed early to read this. like It was just so good. It's about this 45-year-old woman who, hey, I like 45-year-old women. Hello. i mean I'm a little older than that now, but um you know I'm in that that territory. And she's post-breakup, and she just does not have her stuff together.
00:07:50
Speaker
And she's moved to Hudson, sort of this like earthy, wealthy, one of these places that likes to virtue signal quite a bit about quite a few things. oh And um she's working as a transcriber for therapy sessions, therapy and quotes, because this guy isn't like a real therapist. He's I mean, he's he's he's yeah, he's like ah he's not a bad guy, but he is Very alternative and in ways that aren't suitable and unsuitable um But anyway, so she does that and I don't want to give anything away because it is so good and so worth it um But yeah, she's the name big Swiss big big which in itself is It's a funny title.
00:08:42
Speaker
you know it is but i was thinking yeah it's really good it's quite you know it's It's sad and
Exploring Krishno's Exhibition Layout and Techniques
00:08:49
Speaker
affecting in its own way, but very, very, very worth it. Okay, gotcha. I'm going to get that one because I need some fiction in my life. I'm reading a lot of theory at the moment. And I've been struggling to find something in all the books that I find are very dense and serious. And at the moment, I think I need some levity. This is exactly it. Because it's like, is it's a levity and it's funny, but it's very good writing and very, very good storytelling. So I have to say that I'm coming into this episode.
00:09:26
Speaker
very fresh because of my travels. I didn't dig into Matthew Cresciano as I usually do. So I'm really looking forward to this one, you know to being a bit more open about my experience and lesson to the research. So everything's in your hands, Emily, and maybe it's time to introduce the artists. No pressure there. Well, it's it's a pleasure, actually, because I you know i didn't know anything You know, as is the case with me most of the time, I know nothing about anything until I go there. And it was a pleasure to kind of look into this artist who I, again, knew nothing about. But he Matthew Krishna is a British Bangladeshi artist that draws and paints the places and people in his life.
00:10:15
Speaker
If you were to put it simply, I think that's probably the way yeah to to talk about him. And this exhibition was such a wonderful experience. It was like soothing to the nervous system, but it wasn't, it wasn't, it's it also made you think and it made you, you know, consider the, i there's definitely ideas there that he's considering, but he does so in, you know, in this really kind of, unprovocative way, ah which sounds like impossible, but we'll we'll talk about that. So I'll note that I used a few resources for my research. There's a book, Matthew Krishna, published by Anami. I think that's how you'd say that. um I bought it at the Camden Art Center. Great bookshop.
00:11:05
Speaker
It has wonderful
Cultural and Personal Themes in Krishno's Work
00:11:07
Speaker
images of Morris, but also great text, which is high praise. I usually find the text in art books. insufferable, you know, but this the text in this book was great. And it has a really brilliant interview with Ben Luke, who coincidentally has a great podcast called A Brush With...and has a really great interview with Matthew. Matthew's website also has links to texts about his work that were really, you know, really great to to thumb through.
00:11:40
Speaker
So, Matthew was born in 1980 in Bradford, UK. He lived in Bangladesh between the ages of 1 and 12. His father was a missionary that first went to India on the hippy trail and met his mother, who was Indian, while while teaching English. So Matthew's childhood memories, the exteriors and the interiors that made up his life in Bangladesh are a huge theme in his work that were derived, the the the paintings were derived largely from photographs that had been taken throughout his life. Other themes in his work include religion, obviously with his father being a missionary, but also colonialism, love, grief and race.
00:12:26
Speaker
With that description, you might think
Artistic Expression and Personal Reflection
00:12:28
Speaker
that, whoa, this this is heavy, hard work stuff. But it's the opposite. As I said, he approaches these topics with tenderness and warmth. The lines are soft. The colors are cheerful. And he's so expressive with the paint itself. So Matthew started as a sculptor. He was applying to art school with his sculpture portfolio and wasn't getting any acceptance letters. And a couple things happened to change that trajectory. His mentor at the time was saying, look Matthew, I don't see any of you in the sculptures. Like they just aren't alive in a way that you could only make these things alive. But his mentor did see him in the drawings for the sculptures, for the sculptures. So I mean, I think that's a wonderful thing because it's like,
00:13:22
Speaker
where would he be without that sounding board, without that mentorship to kind of guide him and help him see what it is that he and only he can really express through his art. So I loved that. And this also made me think of our conversation about Lubaina Hamid's display at the RA. So this was a display that was yeah a work in progress for a larger work, but yet very powerful and You know, kind of, I mean, obviously she was, you know, she, she didn't change her trajectory. Maybe she did change her trajectory based on these smaller works. Maybe she was headed somewhere very different and then she made these smaller works and it was like, ah, I, you know, I know where I'm going to go and it might be somewhere different than I initially anticipated. But so that, that
00:14:15
Speaker
conversation with his mentor changed things for him. And then Matthew and his brother went to see a Basquiat show in Paris in 2002. And it inspired inspired him to take drawing and painting more seriously. And one of the interviews he talks about how, you know, he saw, you know, he'd seen lots of Basquiat's work, like in reproductions and books and whatever. But it was going there and seeing how he actually worked with the material and brought it to life that changed things for him.
00:14:46
Speaker
Yeah, that's such an interesting thing, you know, the the path you take as an artist and also the intelligence you have to have to listen because he could have been told, you know, you're in the drawings and just, you know, continue doing
Contrasting Perspectives on Krishno's Exhibition
00:15:02
Speaker
his thing in sculpture. I have recently come across the exactly the same story with an artist called Elika Hedayat. She's an Iranian artist who lives in Paris. And she asked me to interview her for her latest a book. And so we started talking about her beginnings in Iran. So she started in Iran first. And she wanted to do animation. And so she went to France. She wanted to, to I think she applied to the freenoir, I think, I'm not quite sure. She really wanted to go into
00:15:35
Speaker
one type of school, because she was into animation so much. And she also applied to the Beaux-Arts, you know, just like that, because she thought, you know, worst case scenario, I'll be at the Beaux-Arts, which is hilarious, because it's the most prestigious visual arts school in front. And she was like, just go I don't know, ho hum. I don't know. That's my last chance, you know, if I get there, ref fine. So she was accepted. Wow. And so she worked in the Annette Messager's studio, which she's a huge artist. So she was already, because that's how they work at the Beaux Arts. You have artist studios, and then you are in that studio or the other studio. And Annette Messager was a great mentor of hers. ah But then Christian Bernard came. He's a ah huge curator, and he saw her work. And then he had a glimpse of her drawings in a corner and was like,
00:16:29
Speaker
Elika, that's where you are. that That's it. that's that these These are important. And ever since she's been doing drawing, drawing is kind of the basis of her work, although she does painting. She does these really really beautiful installations of paintings and drawings and murals that kind of connect all these works in her exhibitions. She also did a documentary called Tan, highly recommend. It's about um men's relationships with her bodies and in Iran. wow So she was covered, you know, like filming, hiding her body as you have to now in Iran. And they were there were, you know, bodybuilders and all kinds of men, men who had been at war and who had lost limbs, like all kinds of relationships with the idea of masculinity and the body is really interesting.
00:17:21
Speaker
documentary. So you have to be intelligent as well to listen to what you're told. as that's I think that's kind of the story, isn't it? Totally. And we all have these conceptions of who we want to be in the world. that might be different than who we are in the world. you know like So this is a very small comparison. So i like so for the longest time, i took you know I took piano lessons as a kid.
00:17:52
Speaker
and um you know every now You're so musical, I forget. yeah no i mean like lower your expectations. But yeah, I mean, they like music has been in my life. I'm not saying that I am a great musician. But but I've always had this concept that like, you know, being able to play the piano really well, or being able to do a stringed instrument of some kind ah is the way to go. And, you know, last year for my birthday, I bought myself a ukulele and was kind of banging some things out on it. But it's just not it's just not
00:18:28
Speaker
Like I had a realization recently that I'm like, you know, I just, I am a rhythm person. Like I'm never going to be a melody. Like that's a melody person, a melody person. Like, you know, and I, but, but in my mind, I have a hierarchy of what's good and what you should want to be. And you should want to be able to play like. recognizable tunes on the piano. Yeah, we have to say to our listeners that you are a drummer. I'm a drummer. You play drums. Yeah, exactly. And it's great because ah we, so I'm going to Minnesota in July and we have a very wholesome time when we go camping with my family. And my brother is an amazing musician. Like he's all by ear and he just he just plays the guitar and all of that stuff. Wow. So part of the reason ah this you i know i wish yeah i would part of the reason I bought this ukulele was my niece, who's a brilliant singer, like she has a fantastic voice. um She got a ukulele and she was kind of like playing along with my brother's guitar and we were all singing and stuff like that.
00:19:38
Speaker
And, um, so that's why I got this ukulele, which I mean, I could probably bang out a few chords here and there and, you know, just about hang on. But instead, Peter got me some claves and he got me oh like to play along around the woman around the cat fight. Cause obviously I can't drake take my drum kit, right? So it got me a little jaker and I know. ah so Look at that. wow And that is love, ladies and gentlemen. I mean, he's like here. That is someone who knows you, Emily. That is someone who knows you yeah and who respects you for who you are and, you know, admires the heck out of it. And it's funny because for me, drumming is the highest
00:20:26
Speaker
really The highest form. Oh yeah. i'm I'm a rhythm person. I'm not very sensitive to melody, to be honest with you. yeah i'm I'm not into... I love Baroque music, but then when it comes to those big symphonies and, you know, I have my favorites. I'm not going to say I don't like it. I do. I love piano. Love it, love it, love it, love it. But I do realize that I'm a voice slash rhythm person for sure, like Baroque.
00:21:00
Speaker
Polyphony just drives me up the wall in a good sense. It just does stuff to me. What can I say? Monteverdi, Purcell, you know that's that's my jam. yeah i mean and i you know it's like I love listening to it and all that, but in terms of like actually having any aptitude for for playing it. It's just, it's just not within my gift. So it's like, there is that difference. I mean, you know, with, um with Matthew Krishna, he could have said, no, the sculpture is like in my mind, the ideal, and obviously, that's where I should go. And that's, that's what I want to get good at, rather than following the innate path inside of you. And I just love that there was a mentor there who was like, Hey, check out this mirror, Matthew, this is what you're good at. you know I mean, and
00:21:51
Speaker
And that that a his you know i mean yeah shaped his relationship to art. you know But it's I don't want to say that you should do whatever you're told to do, because I think that if he listened, it it's because he saw something and it resonated with him. Because you are told outrageous things in art schools. i'm I'm usually a guest lecturer and I do lots of studio visits. And sometimes the students tell me what they're told and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, yeah no you know, no. And I have to hide my, you know, my baffleman. But yeah, so be careful out there, you know, if you're listening to this and you're a student.
00:22:38
Speaker
it's it It has to feel like what I always tell my kids is you have to feel like home. It has to feel like home to you. And sometimes you don't want home. You want something else. You want what you were saying. That idea of what you think is the great thing to do, the hierarchy in your head. But then there's something else that feels like home. Totally, yeah. So Matthew finished his BA at Exeter in Fine Arts and English Literature in 2001. English Literature? Yeah, I know. Okay, interesting.
00:23:14
Speaker
and again then So in 2001, so then you think about that Basquiat show was in 2002. That's the big turning point. Yeah. And then he completed an MA in Fine Art at Central St. Martin College of Art and Design in 2009. So there's a bit of time, you know, like, and I love that too. I love that there it wasn't like, fush, realization, and then you're just on your way, you know, it's like, you know, there was, there was some time in between. And, you know, he, he's obviously, most of the exhibition, we're going to talk about his painting, there's a bit of drawing in there, but he's,
00:23:54
Speaker
you know he he morphed as an artist within that time as well so he's been featured in group shows every year since 2014 and he's had 11 solo shows since 2018 which seems exhausting it's a lot of output gosh that's a lot it is right it's a lot of like is this like because i i mean yeah It depends because he's represented by Tanya Layton Gallery, for example, in Berlin. So it it these might include smaller shows in galleries and
00:24:30
Speaker
solo shows maybe in art fair booths? I don't know. So it it really depends because it's one thing to have like a massive solo show, 11 massive solo shows, and then you can have solo shows that are smaller and smaller spaces. But to be honest, it's quite a lot. It's quite a lot of solo shows. It's more than once a year, isn't it? So there was one year that he had like several. ah But yeah, it could it could be very well be that it was you know smaller. i i guess Or it could be touring shows. So maybe showing the same works in several countries.
00:25:07
Speaker
So that could also be, because if he's represented by a gallery in Berlin, he may be touring some of his shows, you know, that could also be, but painters are prolific. They're not all of them, but it's kind of a ah prolific form of art, I'd say. Yeah. And for Matthew, he said that it's important for him to paint what you know, kind of that old adage and paint what you love. He mentioned a commission that he took to paint someone that he didn't know, and he just couldn't do it. He was like, I had 20 tries and you just one coming together. I don't know if he ever delivered it, but you see this in his images. So a lot of the images are of he and his older brother in Bangladesh. So you see these two boys.
00:25:56
Speaker
on a boat, on a pier, in a tree. And it's you know it's almost like looking at two halves of one whole. And yeah and you know you you know there's obviously a lot of his family and of people in places that he that he loves. And yeah, so obviously that's you know that's a huge thing for him. You see images of his wife and of his daughter, his wife, the writer Ushi Ghatward. Sadly, she passed away at the age of 49 from cancer in 2021. Oh, gosh, just awful. I mean, she got like a stage four when she was diagnosed stage four. um And these are really moving scenes in the show of his wife and his daughter. And again, so it's like grief, you know, loss of letting go of all of these really big things. But yet he
00:26:53
Speaker
brings you into them so gently. And, you know, he he makes it easy to stay there for a while, which I really, really liked. This exhibition is really about loss, isn't it? Not only about loss through death, but also loss of a place and a childhood um landscape. because you do see him, you do see two boys. So it's him and his brother. So you you see that and and they kind of come together, these images and the motifs in the paintings. Yeah. So Matthew tends to work in series of paintings. He has a House of God series in sickness and in health mission series. They're all dealing with distinct ideas, but similar ah images can be seen across them. So the boys, his family, etc.
00:27:48
Speaker
And, you know, it's, ah I mean, so you might even see a similar painting in different ways. So there's a very famous painting yes in the exhibition and one that I think, you know, people might recognize for him. And it's so there's the the painting is called Mission School. And in this painting, you see the backs of ah brown schoolchildren in a classroom looking at an image of the Last Supper. And then in the book that I got, you see that similar scene in a slightly different way. And because oh it was part is part of a different series, part of a different you know iteration of it. And I find that kind of difficult because you fall in love with one and then you see sort of a ah sort of a facsimile that's not quite right of it somewhere else. But I yes i like
00:28:47
Speaker
i like I like having to get over that hump, you know what I mean? of No, hold on, hold on. This isn't right. that The floor is pink in this one and the kids are looking a little bit different. yeah but you know And I ah kind of like that. that's there even though I find it a little bit frustrating. But so there's so much to unpick with his work but maybe it's time to look at the exhibition. Joanna, do you want to take us through the show? Pleasure. um so So the exhibition is set in a very specific way because as you arrive upstairs there's a sort of a rectangular hall
00:29:28
Speaker
where, you know, I'd call it a hall, I don't know if that's the name of it, where from where you go into the big exhibition rooms. So in this hall, there was a choice, a choice was made to show much smaller works. And um they have figures that are sort of diluted into the paint and the elements that the paint represents, such as water. There is one small painting where a boy is swimming. It says so in the title, so we know it's personal. We know it's kind of um someone he knows or himself. um And it looks like the boy is pushing the paint. It's really striking.
00:30:11
Speaker
And most of these works, so these very small works, are from 10 years ago or more, you know, like drafts, if you will. There's one exception to this. There's a bigger painting, which is sort of mid-sized, like 70 by 50 or something. of a grotto or a cave with a religious display above, so really at the top of the painting, like a sort of an afterthought. And the whole painting is taken over by a sort of a dark entrance of the cave at the bottom of which you see devotional candles. But it's mostly a sort of a black void, a black mysterious hole.
00:30:53
Speaker
And so then you move into the first exhibition room and there's huge paintings like they're really really big and they take up the space which is no small feat as it's a very high ceiling room. So there are two banyan tree paintings to your left where the roots take up a lot of space and the figures of one or two boys are up there, oh almost minute in this lavish nature. And then facing them, there are two very big portraits
00:31:26
Speaker
format field paintings, I would call them. They are bizarre because a field would probably be painted on a horizontal landscape like format. But here as you approach, you're supposed to feel engulfed by the soil or the grass. There's two of them. One is sort of yellow beige and the other one is green, like grass green. So up there in each painting, there's a strip of buildings that the painter did not care to paint too specifically. ah It's all about the field, so um as you walk towards them, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeahs I mean, that so those are part of the House of God series. And, you know, those are, you know, ah buildings, as you said, you know, with big sort of
00:32:13
Speaker
color studies, I guess, that are that are underneath or above, like he has other ones. The two in the show, all of the color is underneath, but he has other ones in the book where the ah color is above. right um And they're so in contrast with the banyan tree images, because those banyan tree I think those were the banyan trees that had lots of paint drip in them. So they just look really wild and banyan trees so like they can grow outward.
00:32:47
Speaker
indefinitely. like They just keep growing extra trunks. They're like huge houses. Yeah. Yeah. They're they're the most incredible things. And he captures that feeling, that immensity of these banyan trees and the boys are just tiny little figures ah you know yeah climbing around the top. yeah And so on the right, you have a painting with two boys behind the carcass of a big animal. And you can see that these, I think that's the one that made me think this is painted after a photograph because it's so awkward. Like the boys are just kind of like looking at the camera.
00:33:26
Speaker
probably wanting to look at the carcass but they're not looking at the carcass so I thought kids would be kind of like either moving away from it or you know in some way interacting with it but not just ignoring it so I thought they were posing for a photograph and on the other side there's a huge painting with a big sculpture and again a boy on top of the sculpture. I don't quite remember that one as well. And then you move to the other room through a wall of smaller drawings. So there are the famous drawings that made him realize that that's what he should be doing.
00:34:00
Speaker
They seem like drafts, studies, ah but they exist on their own. they They're quite you know very different because they are on different kinds of paper. um And then ah you see ah another set of pictures and you realize that this exhibition mixes past and present. As you have the painter and his brother in a few paintings, one of them of two exhausted boys on a couch, seemingly after a walk outdoors in Cornwall, as the title indicates, still wearing cold weather clothes. And then you have photos of his family, wife and daughter, in the Epping forest.
00:34:41
Speaker
So there's kind of a ah double thing, a doppelganger kind of thing going on, where you kind of, there's trees of the Epping Forest, there's a Mannion tree, so it kind of looks for similarities and and differences, you know, of course, within the similarity. And finally you have ah the last room, where you have what seems to be photo-based paintings of his family in Bangladesh, I presume, especially his father, who was a priest in religious spacings spaces and settings. Again, pretty large paintings um that take up the whole room. The home is quite filled. um And then you have the, for me, the epitome of the exhibition, which is a very, very small painting for once of Jesus on a cross.
00:35:29
Speaker
And you can see that it's not Jesus himself. It's not a depiction of the crucifixion, but it's probably taken from a photograph. It's a sculptural piece, so a sculpted crucifix, probably from the family's archive. So I think this is it. I hope my description is vivid enough. So we'll make it more so after the interval. ah when we'll talk about color, themes, religion, and much more. So we'll meet you right after this small break.
00:36:21
Speaker
And we're back. We're here at Camden Art Centre with Matthew Krishna's exhibition, The Bow Breaks. Shall we talk about the title? Because it's it's um it's very expressive and I think he does explain it at some point. Yeah, definitely. And his previous exhibition was Out on a Limb. so there's definitely yeah a theme kind of going on there and i mean he talked about you know the you know that that whole relationship to being on a branch and kind of putting yourself out there and pushing things as far as they can go i mean i think he talks about that in terms of his
00:37:03
Speaker
painting that he wants to do that within his painting, but then that ah is obviously happening in life as well. and i mean Yeah, he's referring to the poison on the trees, on the on the branches, um and how incredibly dangerous it is in hindsight you know when you look at those pictures and you think what were my parents doing why was I on top of a banyan tree and how horrible you know it could have happened and when you know that the context of the exhibition is also a lot about loss
00:37:38
Speaker
you kind of almost grieve the thing that could have happened yeah you know in your in your childhood. You look back and you think, there's a moment in not my childhood, but in my early years of motherhood where I think i think think about this once a month where we parked the car. I had two kids at the time, the two old older ones. We parked the car, we were taking care of Arthur, who was a baby. and conncia coststanza She could walk already. She got out of the car. We were in the middle of a ah a very busy road, so we parked alongside a very busy road, and she started walking towards the road.
00:38:21
Speaker
And for some magical, I don't know, intervention of some kind of some gracious goddess somewhere, i I saw her and I grabbed her and the car was just coming. She could have just not been here. And I think about that all the time. traumatizing Like as a parent, that is traumatizing. I mean, just the thought of that. Yeah. Like and for for his parents, though, like this was 80s parenting, was it not? Yeah. Like, yes, it was. play I told this this story to colleagues recently. So my when I was growing up, my parents had one car. So my mom would go and pick up my dad.
00:39:03
Speaker
at work, you know, he had somebody who could drive him to work, but then she would pick him up sometimes. So she would load all four of us in the giant Buick we had, you know, with like a bench seat in the front and a huge backseat. Of course, it was 1979. So no, you know, like that was just not a thing. what What are those? It'll damage the child, right? I mean, it'll work for internal organs if it's a lap belt. But um my mom had to stop and get gas on the way to pick up my dad. And I was like oh i was and i rattled on the door like the to open the door, because I was like, I want to come in. I want to like look at the snacks that they have by the register, are basically, kind of drool over something.
00:39:48
Speaker
of Greece's peanut butter cups or whatever. And my mom was like, now you stay in the car. And so I stayed in the car. I had to open the door a bit. So when she went to leave the gas station, of course I was skulking against this door and just leaning against it completely, like just absolutely crestfallen for not having been able to go in. And of course, fell out of the car. And me ah my sister started screaming, my mom stops the car. She gets out of the car, comes around, realized she had stopped on me.
00:40:27
Speaker
Like, my little four-year-old leg it was underneath this enormous 1970s Buick. Oh, you're joking. And so I get in the car and, like, track off of me. So she gets, she bangs the car off of me, takes me to the hospital, and it was the weirdest thing. I went, I got to the hospital. And they were like, Emily, point to the leg that hurts. And I pointed to the leg that did not have tire marks on it.
00:41:00
Speaker
My poor mother, my poor mother. And now this story has been retold over the decades. You know, I did not tear anything. I wasn't limping, you know, there wasn't even Like, my mom was like, it's like, there wasn't even like, a bruise, swelling or something, you know, i I didn't, Emily, Emily, maybe it's a miracle. It was a miracle. It's obviously a miracle Joanna. Why didn't you take this to church Emily?
00:41:37
Speaker
But you know, I don't want to extend this conversation to 80s parenting. I'm just going to put this out there. So Diogo had one sister, a brother, And then his mother remarried to a man who had three children. So at a certain point, they were like, it was a crowd inside the car. And so there's a situation. Yeah. Brady Bunch situation. and So the solution they found for the baby, so Diego's younger brother, was to build a small hammock into the back of the car. No.
00:42:13
Speaker
just like to fling the baby better you know if they'd hit another car so the kid was in a hammock yeah in the sun is out so like in the back window kind of thing or yeah oh i don't know how they did let's just bake the baby just bake it and fling it if we hit another car or if we Break too hard. Off goes the baby. Wow. Now, Jesus, honestly, how did we survive? How did we survive? Yeah, that is next level though. A hammock for the baby. Perfect solution. And i they must have been so proud of themselves. Totally. Oh, they were dining out on that. Do you know what we did? We got a hammock for the baby and now it's all fine.
00:43:05
Speaker
Oh, at dinner, you know, and everybody all their friends like, wow, we should do the same. They probably started the trend in Portugal back in the day. Oh, my God. Anyway, saying that is insane. Yeah. it Crazy. Anyway, going back to the exhibition. So I'm curious to know how did you, so did you stay for a long time in the hall or did you kind of like just breeze through it and go straight to the big paintings? Here's my problem. My problem was that Matthew Krishna was there when I was there. So
00:43:42
Speaker
I mean, so I was like completely distracted. So I walked into that first area you mentioned with all of the small paintings. And then I went forward into the paintings that had like his dad as, you know, a missionary and kind of the more religious thing. Oh, you went the other way. yeah You went straight ahead. Okay. And, and he was in there with a friend like talking and I was like, and It's it I have to say it ruined the experience and it because it was like there was this part of me that wanted to go out to and be like
00:44:17
Speaker
I'm here for a podcast to talk about your thing. And then there was part of me that was like, no, you just kind of like, just be with these paintings. It's funny because you're an artist magnet. You saw Susiana Barbary. I first went into the childhood paintings, um like the the the two boys together. And then I saw the religious room. But I'm curious to know what you thought because I remember going in And the paintings are so big that I didn't feel like approaching them. And then I thought, I remembered him talking about the drips of paint and the banyan trees, because so the tree trunks are not very realistically rendered. So his type of painting is very much lines that are quite free, but very masterful. And then the banyan trees are kind of like drips. He let the paint kind of drip down, trickle down.
00:45:12
Speaker
and as I approach the painting you kind of feel engulfed by the tree and then you look at the painting on the left you look up and there's a boy in the tree and it almost like replicates the experience I presume of the parents or whoever or maybe himself thinking of himself in you know as ah projecting onto some grown up who would have been there and in know watching the children play. And that it's almost like a sort of lifelike experience. He's almost kind of trying to replicate that feeling of dread that of the the immensity of the tree and then the small child lost somewhere in there and about to disappear into the branches. And I was kind of
00:46:04
Speaker
I, you know, immediately my thought was what is this image doing to me, you know, because after Aria Deen. And it is a very traditional replication, representation, trying to replicate through representation a feeling or an impression or a situation. um And I didn't connect to it. I have to say, I wasn't feeling engulfed by the tree. I understood that that was the intention. But because they're very photographic, the paintings, and I think the carcass one is really gives it away, um the subjects are kind of stiff, I found. you know and And repainting a photograph is is is a massive, I mean, lots of people do that, you know in drawing and painting.
00:46:53
Speaker
You work a lot from even projected images. People don't want to acknowledge that, but most realist realistic ah drawings and paintings we see are projected, images projected onto the canvas or the drawing. And then the artist, you didn't? That's funny. Yeah, it happens a lot. like Most artists do that. It's too difficult to work from a small printed photograph. And so you project onto the canvas. I mean, I think art, even representational figurative art is much more mechanic than we think it is, but then there's that moment where you appropriate the image and then it becomes something that you're thinking about and then you're remaking and the drips of paint and that kind of the ah kind of
00:47:42
Speaker
sort of um very abstract part of the painting of the branches is really beautiful from afar and it's it's kind of mesmerizing and it takes you to the painting um but again you know I started asking myself what Where is the photograph? Where is the painting? And I could see that it was these masterful lines in the in the case of the banyan trees and then you turn your back and you have the fields and it's much more work on color. His colors are very specific as well. But I didn't feel, I felt like there was a performative aspect to them where as a viewer, you were supposed to be there and feel kind of like buried into the ground, like almost in those
00:48:29
Speaker
fields that he depicted. um but and the And then there's the painting with the big sculpture. And I stayed there because I thought, OK, I'm a bit conflicted about this. I'm not feeling the exhibition. And then I stayed there and started writing a little bit my impressions. And then someone got in and did exactly the same thing. They didn't approach the paintings. it' just They just went through the room. And they weren't in a hurry because then they were at the cafe working. so maybe they were in a hurry for work, I don't know. But it it the the immensity of the paintings kind of were conflicting to me. I didn't quite know how to, and there was no entry point into the paintings. They were kind of like very wall-like. I don't know. I didn't have the same feeling you did. I think we have ah we had a very different experience.
00:49:23
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's I see what you mean about the the images like the the people being a bit stiff in them. And maybe that is an element of the photograph kind of making it in. But you know, it's like, I mean, you compare his relationship to photography to say Gerhard Richters, who, you know, he was recreating a photograph in a very literal way. And, you know, my impression of of Matthew Krishna is that he is trying to do it in a painterly way. You know, he's trying to do something that only painting can do. um So like the drips in the banyan tree, obviously, that's a very painterly stroke. um But yeah, I
00:50:15
Speaker
I mean, i I enjoy color on canvas and when it's that big and when you feel, when you can feel the movement of the color in the paint, I found that part of it quite thrilling. And I i i yeah i did feel sort of that immensity of the tree. And i there's there's a few paintings that he has with that kind of perspective. Like there's that one with the kids yeah standing on the play equipment looking down at you. Yes. But I find that a lot of his um human figures are not exactly proportional or they feel they feel childlike in a way. I mean, the you know, there're theyre sometimes they they don't look quite like humans. That is true. Yeah. um and That is true.
00:51:13
Speaker
Even in the other room where you have the most religious settings, ah the priest and the congregation around the priests, they are painted in a way that looks, yeah, a little bit childish. that the that All the people, the way they're painted, they're painted in a way as if they had remained children. There's something about the way they're painted. um that's kind of and And you have in the drawings, you can see the way he makes the faces and it it is kind of a minimal gesture. He's not into painting over and over and over until you have a ah lifelike face.
00:52:02
Speaker
um So it you know in in the smaller paintings, in the ones in the hallway, The thing is that the characters, so that the the people, the two boys, ah There's one that I really love, which is the boy in the bed that you see afterwards in in the in a bigger size. And there's the Last Supper yeah in the in the in the frame of the bed. So there's ah the bed has a frame. um It's not a frame. What do you call the kind of sort of ceilings of the beds? Yeah, so like it's a four poster canopy bed, I think they call them. Yes, that's it. Yeah, a canopy bed. We'll not be able to say it again.
00:52:45
Speaker
Yes, it's a canopy back, that's it.
00:52:50
Speaker
And the canopy is the edges of the painting, one side of it. and and the kid is in there and there's no attention to the face. It doesn't matter. It's all about the head that's slightly bent and then there's a loss supper behind it. And that's such a strong painting that must be like, what, 15 centimeters by 30 or 27 or something? It's the smallest painting. And my theory is that he's not really interested
00:53:21
Speaker
in the body and in the facial expressions. and so he gets He gets them done quite quickly, but in the big paintings, for me, that's quite problematic. It gives the characters a certain stiffness, and especially the paintings of his wife, you know where you see her face when she's lying in bed. and she looks like a beautiful It's just a beautiful face with one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight um black ah lines.
00:53:55
Speaker
yeah And she looks very... um um is I hate to say this, but she she looks very nondescript. you know It's not her wife, it's the situation he's interested in. It's the setting, it's the beds, it's the bed frame, the back... Do you know what? I don't have any vocabulary for beds. I don't know what to call that. The ah headboard or is that what you're saying? The head bought headboard. The headboard. I'm sure for you. The headboard. But yeah, I think you're right. I mean, the I think that he does go for kind of emotion and feeling more than kind of you know technical sort of prowess. I think that is part of it.
00:54:40
Speaker
But the technical prowess is what brings the emotion, yeah and that's for me the issue, is that I feel there's a sort of flatness. um Because, I mean, there are paintings in the other room with the the religious um the church and the the ceremonies the the religious ceremonies that I don't know a lot about. I have to say, they didn't have a religious upbringing. So for me, this is very foreign. And I didn't feel that there's any place in the painting where I thought they were very traditional and there is no scratch in the in the in the recording.
00:55:19
Speaker
you know There is no glitch in the matrix. there is these are these are almost They almost feel like paintings that are emulating the church that you could find in kind of a progressive modern church as kind of illustrative of what's going what's going on in there. I didn't apart from the Jesus Christ that I found the crucifix, that I found really striking and incredibly moving, um because I can see a child looking at the figure of Christ and all the stories around Christ, and that's how you enter into religion when you're a kid sometimes, not not for everyone. You can see that it was this an issue for me when I was a child.
00:56:06
Speaker
I was in Madeira with my parents and I go into a church. My parents never took me to church. They didn't baptize me. Probably the same, the the only person in my generation in Portugal who wasn't baptized. And I go into this church and I see the crucifixion and I see this bloody man. yeah And I look at my mom and I ask him, what happened? You know, like really in a panic, like what is this? Why are we looking at this? This is her horrifying. And my mom had to take me out. Yeah. Wow. i Take me out of the church. Yeah, that would been shocking as a kid. Yeah, I was like four or five or so. Maybe that's why maybe that's my connection, you know, because maybe but it's it's strange that you need the personal connection because he is talking about his life. Did um while I was going through in the way that he paints his figures, you know, kind of these soft, clean lines and each of the
00:57:05
Speaker
characters They can often be sort of isolated in their own way. It made me think of Edward Hopper. You know, some of the characters were quite, um I mean, isolated. I mean, if you, like, I don't know if you can see that. Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes. You know, it's like the the people in, so so I'm showing Joanna, for those of you listening, a version of Mission School, of the Mission School painting. And it's, you know, there's there's figures in it, and they are together, but they feel separate at the same time.
00:57:41
Speaker
And I don't know, there was something very- Yeah, there's a sort of isolating. Yeah. They're isolated. Yeah, true. And they're all absorbed in their own activities. Heads are bent a lot in the paintings, the religious paintings at the end. Even the carcass, the carcass painting really kind of struck me as very much not wanting to over interpret a photo and really thinking about whatever was going on in the mind. Maybe it was a good decision because that's kind of the entry point for me. I was a bit like,
00:58:24
Speaker
Why are these kids not looking at the caucus? you know They're not looking at death. And now I'm thinking about it and I'm thinking that was a good choice actually because that' I keep going back to that. And it kind of prefigures that the issue of death with his wife, you see a painting of his wife at the bottom of the tree, as you do when you are looking at the banyan tree. She's doing the same thing you do when you get closer to the painting, but it's in the um Epping Forest with her daughter, and he says that she was already quite ill.
00:58:58
Speaker
in that painting or maybe photograph that he took of them. um So there's kind of this unwillingness maybe that children will have of considering or this unfathomable idea of death that you have to contemplate when you're a missionary son that you're told about all the time, but it's so abstract. Yeah. And I mean, I think too, you know depending on where you are, you might be seeing carcasses like that reasonably frequently. you know i mean it True. and might You know, parts of a carcass. I mean, I was a good point walking my dog the other day and he found part of maybe a lamb.
00:59:39
Speaker
carcass, oh you know, kind of out here in the wilds of Wiltshire, you know, I mean, you'll, you'll see stuff like that a lot more, you know, and I guess, you know, if you're in Bangladesh in the 80s, you know, in the countryside, maybe that's, you know, I mean, it it it does then beg the question of why would it be a photograph moment, but maybe it was a fine specimen of of a carcass, who knows, but But yeah, no, yeah I think you're right that you're right gazing at the camera does make you feel like you're looking at a photograph kind of setup. Yeah, I was surprised because I thought if you're digging in, do you know what? I so i almost felt maybe it's is it's too soon for him. He's grieving. And I felt like the story was behind the paintings.
01:00:32
Speaker
I felt like someone was leafing through their photos and it was a reckoning, some sort of likeing some form of reckoning with life, with losing one's parent, with losing one's wife, one's partner, one's companion. The weight it has on the child that lost their mum. And I almost felt maybe it's too soon. Maybe it's too soon to be, he he needs to paint it for sure. He's a painter, you know, all throughout. You can see that's his life. That's what he breathes, what he thinks. That's his body. it's It's in there. But I almost felt like
01:01:12
Speaker
There was some veiling more than revealing in in the paintings. And I kept thinking what's behind them, you know, what's behind them. Almost physically, like, did he paint something behind? How did he start these paintings? because I did not feel... And and the thing the weird thing is that the entrance, the hall, I love the paintings. I love those paintings. And I think those paintings are very atmospheric. It doesn't really matter what the figures look like.
01:01:50
Speaker
There's also this thing of you can't really understand what these people look like. They're very they're all they're all alike. they all They're not individualized. And in the smaller paintings, it doesn't matter. You don't have space to draw a face. it It really is not the point. And the point is the matter. It's the water. It's the cave. um it's There's thes several paintings of sky. There's a lot of blue. Yeah, there's some yeah there's there's one that's called, I think it's called Night Swimming. and Yes, yeah. You know the one I mean? It's um yeah basically- Yeah, I have it here. yeah i mean Yeah, it's like there's a kid who, I think it's a kid,
01:02:39
Speaker
who is swimming and it's kind of like maybe far enough out from the shore that it's dangerous. but also far enough that it's fun. like I don't get the sense he's in distress. you know yeah but he He doesn't know how dangerous exactly his fun is. He has no idea. this yeah He's in the swell. But he's enjoying a beautiful, I guess, almost sunset from his position. yeah
01:03:11
Speaker
But yeah, yes it wraps up like all of this beauty and precariousness of where this kid is. And it says so much. like it's As you said, it's a small frame. It's a small painting. But I agree. And the way that figures, he renders figures in those small frames is just so wildly different. They're so expressive. Yeah. Yes. I think in the smaller paintings, it's really beautiful to see because he does what Hoppe did, which is to just make the body expressive.
01:03:47
Speaker
and not care about the details. It's it's not about that. hed he It's like he wants to preserve his intimacy and his privacy and his life, but he wants to talk about that experience. um And he wants to talk about emotions and experiences. And the small paintings just do it for me. They're on paper, they're oil on paper, and and they're just so incredibly moving and so incredibly expressive. um Whereas the bigger paintings, he has to stretch out these figures and he has to make decisions about these figures and the decisions he made. I mean, for me, i'm I'm sure they will move lots of other people and maybe people who have had closer experiences to what his life is, maybe will
01:04:36
Speaker
see it differently, but for me, they made it quite difficult to connect. It felt like, you know, augmented figures rather than really you know, specific bodies. I mean, the Cornwall painting is quite nice. I really love that one. But again, I think it's a smaller painting where the kids, you can just feel like they're exhausted after the walk. They're freezing. They came from Bangladesh. It's fucking freezing in Cornwall. There's wind and they just cannot believe what happened to them.
01:05:12
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, I think you're right. It's like there's, um there's another one of the small paintings of, you know, two boys on a log over this like raging river. You know, they're just they're very high perch. yes not And there's kind of in the one right next to that is them on the boat on the front of the boat in a very placid lake. And it just, I don't know, there's there's something about the storytelling there, about you know that discovery as a young person and not knowing necessarily that, oh, we're in calm waters now, or actually we are over something really precarious. or you know It's just that discovery of what all these different
01:05:57
Speaker
you know ah feelings are, you know, and you're wanting to know them so that you can spot them later on. and um But yeah, I agree. Of the bigger paintings, the ones that I felt were the ones where he was really working with the paint. So I really loved the paint dripping in the banyan tree. The banyan trees, they're quite beautiful. And I loved the um the color studies. like There's just so much going on. But I think what I liked about the bigger paintings, and maybe just about the imagery, was that you know he painted his his father as sort of a white guy clergy in third person.
01:06:41
Speaker
you know it wasn't sort of like Yeah, that's true. He was seeing his father, but it was, you know, these images of him, you know, putting, you know, liturgical wear on, you know, other people, the brown people that are around him and, and you know, that that it says so much about colonialism and about the, you know, kind of you know conversion into you know missionaries wanted to convert people to Christianity. For solitizing. Yeah, solitizing, thank you. and um But it says so much about that while without losing some of the grace and love that these people, presumably his dad,
01:07:29
Speaker
Genuinely had about that mission, you know, so it's like it's it's it's a both and you know I it's like there's part of you that feels uncomfortable with it and maybe he feels uncomfortable with it but there's also like a big part of it that it came from an understanding of what love is and what grace is and all of that. That's the part of his work that I really, really like. And even the grief bits, you know, it's like, you know, his his wife, as she's sitting there on that pier with his daughter, or, you know, in the in the tree, the weight of his wife and those pictures, it's heavy, like, it's really, really heavy. And it's, you know, it's very simplistically rendered.
01:08:16
Speaker
But I mean, there's a lot of power to it too. And I think too, you know, Epping Forest and Connaught Water, which is the water that she's on, she and his his daughter, you know, those are very familiar places for me as well. I mean, you know, we live in North London and, you know, have spent I mean, just so much time around Connaught water and, you know, in that area. And I think that's part of it, too, is, you know, just a personal connection for me. I really appreciate the fact that he goes into notions of race and um and religion with that both end feeling. That's what I got with those, you know, the the colors are they're cheerful. You know, the the people are not
01:09:03
Speaker
angry, you know, or unwilling, you know, they're just there doing this thing that, you know, these cultures have collided, and this is what's happening. And there will be ramifications, but he's not necessarily, you know, engaging with that he's sort of capturing the how Yeah, and the normalcy of it, of us on the outside saying, oh, this is a colonial process that's still going on, and that left its marks and left its religions and its moors and
01:09:39
Speaker
you know, all of these things and his beliefs. And he saw it as something that was real. It was just an everyday thing for him. um and And it's true that you can see it as something that has no asperities. yeah Everything is soft, soft curves painted in soft curves. The the heads are very round, the shoulders are super super curved. Everything is done with a lot of um with a delicate soft touch.
01:10:12
Speaker
ah they're painting like they're yeah they're sinuous and at the same time not too serpentine the shapes they're really round and the colors the whites are very bright and it's very yellow as well i imagine it's the color of the sun there you know, I just came back from Portugal and my light is bright white light that burns your retinas. Whereas, you know, maybe that's the light he remembers, everything very yellow and
01:10:44
Speaker
um it It is true that there's something of acceptance, you know, and and you know, when you're talking about grief, you know, where where where and when and how is the acceptance coming in. And that's why the Christ is so interesting for me, because it's kind of sideways. It's not ah an upfront Christ. So you can imagine that it's probably as well taken for, a I mean, no, it is. It's slightly slanted. It's not completely sideways. it's not He's not centered in the image. there's kind of a
01:11:23
Speaker
ah he It's white on the back, but there's some blue beneath it. So you don't know if it's a wall. He seems suspended in an atmospheric cloud. It's a very small painting. So I guess for me, it's a problem of format. and I go to the small paintings and I love them. Yeah. And he is there, you know, kind of like his arms are two lines, the chest, the legs are kind of two lines as well. and is kind of And then you have the very rigid cross behind, very kind of like two lines, very dark. And I love this painting because I don't quite get it. I don't quite know what he's trying to say.
01:12:10
Speaker
But I kind of feel a little thread that I know I can pull, and it's going to take some time to understand what's going on in this painting. I asked myself, to what extent does the do the biases you have and the prejudices you have? Because I mean, I really do not have how i haven't had the religious upbringing. I come from a very Catholic country. So for me personally, I think maybe that's where, because that second room for me was brutal. The third room was kind of brutal. Coming in there and seeing so much religious painting was as a colonizer, which is my history. But on the, on the maybe, I don't know.
01:12:55
Speaker
Yeah, fair enough. I mean, the the flip side of that is he has sort of the white, you know, the white ah priest, you know, father, his father figure. But there's also lots of representations of brown Christianity. So you have the brown nuns. Oh, yeah. you have It's, you know, the majority of it, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So there's you know, there's a ownership taken perhaps that he's trying to, you know, demonstrate as well. But I agree. And i I really, you know, I really like your notion that it's that the that the bigger paintings are potentially more of a veil than a reveal.
01:13:40
Speaker
And that's, that's, ah I think that's an interesting idea. And I think if I were to go again, that would give me a very different perspective with all of the, all of the work. But I agree. I think that, I think that these small ones are, are really phenomenal and they felt most moving. And, and I think told, you know, to me, the viewer, the most poignant story. So which one, which one? Would you take home if you could? Yes, and that's the funny bit. I was thinking as I was listening to you, I was thinking it's so interesting isn't it that we spoke about liking and disliking and this is not about liking or disliking. I didn't dislike the exhibition. It it was kind of a a conundrum for me.
01:14:31
Speaker
um And it's so interesting that maybe I didn't connect a lot to most of the paintings, but I am passionate. And I'm saying passionate, weighing my words about the cave painting. I was so struck by it and it may have been that painting that kind of ruined the the rest of the experience because I didn't see it at first and then I went around the room, I saw it up close and then I kept looking at the paintings and I looked back for some reason, maybe someone was coming in and I saw it from afar and I just had the most incredible physical reaction to it.
01:15:13
Speaker
I just felt engulfed, like I didn't feel in the bigger paintings by it, taken into it and into the mystery yeah that probably is the religious feeling, isn't it? It's a sense of mystery and miracle and life and death and disappearing and appearing, the candles that are not providing any light to that hole. They're not lighting it. You don't know what's inside. The black behind the candles is abyss black. Like it is no... Absolutely. Behind those. Absolutely. Yeah.
01:15:50
Speaker
And you still want to go in. I mean, I felt like I'm going to the mother of mothers, and and I'm going to go into that hole. And it's exactly what he's depicting with the kids, which is what is dangerous is also fun. And you're attracted to darkness as you're attracted to light. And you try to bring light and into darkness. I don't know. That painting, if I could have it, you know of course he's not after everything I said he's not going to give it to me but whoever owns it well done you because that is a painting I would love of all the exhibitions we visited I think that was one of the strongest impressions really and yes I loved that painting so much and it
01:16:36
Speaker
just made me want more from a single painting, but knowing that the more would have to come from me and not from the painting. There's something magical to me in that painting. I just loved it. I would take it home and I would look at it every day. Yeah, it is spectacular. And I mean, again, it's like There's that abyss black, but then the candles that are lit are cheerful colors. Like it's this really great juxtaposition of, you know, just sort of merrily we go into the abyss you know kind of feeling. yeah
01:17:15
Speaker
yeah And also Bangladesh, that contrast of the the the carcass and the colors, the incredible colors that you probably see in that country. you know I don't know, it says so much without showing a lot. Yeah, definitely. How about you? I can see that you're looking at your pictures. You're looking at your book. I'm looking at on my phone with all the pictures on it. But yeah, I think it would be definitely night swimming. The one we talked about. Oh, yes. That's a lovely one. Yeah, it just like, I think that is that that is definitely one of the common threads in his work is that
01:18:06
Speaker
that danger of childhood, you know that danger of being drawn into things that we don't realize could end us. you know um And also, I think being in the context of a very colonial approach to a place that is that comes from the heart, but that you're in the sorts of you're in a bit of history. And your body is a mix of both histories. And you have no idea. I think there's also that kind of thing of the oh all the things you ignore as a child and the very pure, innocent relationship you have to things.
01:18:47
Speaker
I mean, there's lots of evil and and and cruelty in children, but one thing you can say is that whatever your parents bring to the table, you take it yeah and you don't know where it comes from. yeah And you end up being brought up in those values and those beliefs and those whatever, you know those stories that you told. And that's why I think the second one I would take is the boy in the canopy bed with the Last Supper behind it. And the Last Supper is painted yeah beautifully because it's the exact amount of figures that you need to know exactly what they're so what what the painting is.
01:19:26
Speaker
and that moment of loneliness and of soothingness of being in your parents' bed, there's nothing like being in your parents' bed. yeah There's something a little bit like that cave. Well, you feel the danger because it's intimate, but at the same time, you want to be there. It's so nice. the best It's so good. yeah It's the best. Whatever relationship we have with your parents, there's something about the bed. ah Sorry, I'm just going to take that back. No idea.
01:19:59
Speaker
Because probably there's a few of you out there, you will not feel what I'm talking about, because very little is universal. But from what I take from my conversations with people, a lot of us feel that relationship with our parents' beds, but probably not all of us. you know um Let's face it. but Yeah, personally, I really relate to that. And also of being in Portugal in a very dark spaces because it was so hot. My parents come from the central region and going back to the family, to the village, and having to be in total darkness in the afternoon because it was so, so hot. And being on the in those unfamiliar beds with lots of religious imagery as well. Although my family is not very religious, but
01:20:49
Speaker
There was obviously, you know, in a Catholic country, you can't escape it really. yeah So that's that kind of something that is in the back of my mind, and my un-nostalgic memory.
01:21:05
Speaker
Brilliant. Well, thank you so much Joanna. This is brilliant. I just feel like you know just hearing you talk about your experience of the exhibition has given me so much more to think about and it makes me want to go back and see it again. And you have the book as well, so you have much more, you have a bigger knowledge. I think that what you said about the um the the presence of that white leader, ah religious leader, but then in a sort of a um ah a calm, serene gathering, a religious gathering in faith around that man of all those, of course, brown people who were from there and who willingly were there and found solace in someone else's religion.
01:21:55
Speaker
is something that I didn't think about, to be honest, in the show. and i mean I feel deeply connected to Buddhism. you know so In some ways, you know i'm ah you know i guilty of appropriation maybe, I don't know, but it's it resonates with me. I love it. I go back to it. It helps me. It sustains me. And so nothing is in its place yeah in globalization. And when there has been exchanges, some of them violent, some of them less violent, some of them
01:22:32
Speaker
Very few with regards to the people you're proselytizing, I don't know. it's It's a complex matter and when you're part of it, it is asking a lot to someone who's part of both cultures, maybe to at a young age, provides you know a very clear entry point for you as a spectator. and so that you also You made me think of that and it's true that it's it's a very interesting perspective that he has. you know and and The question of did these paintings and did this religion provide acceptance and solace
01:23:11
Speaker
for him as a grieving partner. the The question is not answered and I like that. you know I think that's a very important aspect. It's not moralizing, it's not telling you what to think. So yeah. I mean, thank you. It was really nice because I kept my resistance to the exhibition a secret um because i wanted you know i I thought it was going to be interesting to see you know how how we could talk about this. And as usual, you bring something to the table that I had not seen at all.
01:23:47
Speaker
you know so that's That's what we're here for. That's the beauty of exhibitions and about talking about exhibitions. talking about them Exactly. Because we visit exhibitions so that you have to. Don't forget. Nice working in the tagline there, girl. Like it. So next time we are going to go big. and with Judy Chicago revelations at the Serpentine Gallery. So we are going to be sharing that episode. If you have a chance to check it out or if you have a chance just to check out Judy Chicago ah before that, that's wonderful. Obviously never a prerequisite. But um with that, I guess we shall see you next time.
01:24:29
Speaker
We shall see you next time. And Emily, I have to say I'm really excited about the next one because I am eager to go beyond the dinner table, which is what Jewish cargo is known for, and to know and to go deep into her work, to know it better. So I'm really excited about that one. Stay tuned, hang in there and see you next time, although we don't see you, but we feel your presence. So, you know, well, we'll see you next time. Alright, take care Joanna, bye! Take care Emily, bye bye!