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What is an art advisor? Guest #1: Liberté Nuti
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Yes! We have our first guest on the podcast, art advisor Liberté Nuti. As often happens in the art world, we are not always familiar with each other's jobs. And forget telling people you are a podcaster! (People think you are an influencer selling hair products online.) So let's start to dismantle some myths and find out more about what it is that us intermediaries of the art world do.
Joana goes on this quest on her own this time, as Emily is on sick leave, and it is Joana's expertise after all, to interview people and do talks about art topics.
Joana asks Liberté about all theses things and ends the conversation on the topic of dream exhibitions. What are they? How do they impact our lives and why?
To know more about Liberté Nuti: @libertenuti
To follow us: @exhibitionistas_podcast
Become a member of our podcast on Patreon and support us if you can: https://www.patreon.com/c/exhibitionistaspodcast/membership
Music by: @Sarturn
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Format
00:00:09
Speaker
Hello everyone, welcome to the podcast. If you're new here this is not our typical episode because we have a guest for the first time. Our usual method is simply to discuss my co-host and I, it's solo exhibitions we visit separately. Emily my co-host is on sick leave and could not make it to the podcast so we decided to try something we have in pondering which is to invite guests who can bring a different perspective to exhibitions but also the art world. In my other life as a curator I do interviews with artists and why not bring the skill set to this podcast.
Introducing Guest Liberté Nuiti
00:00:45
Speaker
So there are two things that led me to invite today's guest. First of all she's a blast and secondly she can put to rest all the questions you may have about what it is that art advisors do
00:00:58
Speaker
and how they make their money. Yes, that dirty word that we don't like to discuss in Europe. But in fact, many people ask themselves exactly that, even artists and curators.
Understanding Art Advisors: Roles and Misconceptions
00:01:11
Speaker
And our first guest, Liberté Nuiti, is happy to clarify all of this for you.
00:01:18
Speaker
From my perspective, our guest is part of a group that I belong to as well, which is all the intermediaries between the artist, the art and the private or public collection, the museum or the home. There are so many agents like myself, a curator, writer and podcaster who contribute to make the art world what it is. And talking to us can help understand a lot and break certain to myths as well.
00:01:44
Speaker
So we will not shy away from the fact that much more than curators, art advisors are somewhat demonized. Our guest is great at explaining the art market and its intricacies quite bluntly. Then we move on to the raison d'être of this podcast. Fear not, we do mention exhibitions. I asked Liberte about her dream exhibitions from the distant and recent past, as well as her ideal exhibition.
00:02:13
Speaker
Let me also remind you to join our Patreon page which is on the show's notes and perhaps even support us financially for just $1.50 a month. So this is my job done, speaking of the dirty words, speaking of money. It will help. $1.50 is not a lot and it does help a lot, believe me.
Liberté Nuiti's Career Transition
00:02:54
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome to the podcast where we visit exhibitions so that you have to or so that you experience them vicariously through us.
00:03:05
Speaker
But today we have a complete novelty. We are very, very glad to welcome our first guest. art advisor Liberté Nuti. However, the format is not too far from the premise because we have visited exhibitions together, haven't we Liberté? Yes, we have. And hello, and thank you so much for having me on the podcast. That's a joy. It's lovely to have you. It's been a pleasure to visit exhibitions with you, and I'm sure it's going to be a pleasure to exchange with you on this topic. So we will talk about your work as an art advisor.
00:03:36
Speaker
And then we will discuss our most special experiences with exhibitions in the past, the present, and perhaps even the future. You know, some futurology, who knows? Soli Berti is a specialist in modern and impressionist art with a particular focus on works on paper. She was a senior director in the impressionist and modern department at Christie's London, where she worked from 1997 to 2018.
00:04:06
Speaker
For several years, Liberté organised the biannual Impressionist Art Private Sales Exhibition in Hong Kong and gave several lectures on Impressionist art. In 2018, Liberté joined the Contemporary Art Gallery, Hauser & Berth, where she oversaw the sales of Impressionist and Modern art.
Art Advisors' Role and Market Navigation
00:04:24
Speaker
And in line with the gallery's particular strength in history, she focused on the 20th century avant-garde movements, such as Dada and Surrealism, working particularly on Jean Art Pablo Picasso and Francis Picaglia. Soli Berti, how on earth did you end up working with art, which is to say, how did you become an art advisor first for others? And now with your own company, Herb Nutti. Oh, well, it's been a ah long journey, I have to say. um I started 30 years ago, nearly, then it's it's it's been many years. um I started um
00:05:04
Speaker
When I was around 20 years old and I was starting my career, I didn't really know what to do. I started to kind of work in the cinema industry and the TV industry, which I love very much. And very quickly, I realized the cinema and the ah TV is very much about visual, but also stories.
00:05:28
Speaker
And I'm much more um into images which which are not moving. And I realize I enjoy so much going to the museum and taking that in that um I quit the TV world and joined the art world. That's interesting because it was actually exhibitions that led you to decide moving towards the art world rather than the cinema and TV world.
00:05:54
Speaker
I think it was in a way because I was doing internship and I was studying law and, ah you know, you are in a career mood and that's what I wanted to do. I was in France and I realized really by going to the Louvre ah in the evening, they they just had started that in in Paris. It was just the most relaxing, the most, that where I could find myself and um that was really resonating with me. And from that on, I just,
00:06:23
Speaker
um decided that that would be my path. And I remember I talked to my aunt one day and I, you know, when you're 23, 24, you don't know what to do with your life. And she just said, do what you love. And I thought, oh, that's it. Easy.
00:06:40
Speaker
Do what you love and try to manage to get paid for it. That's the thing. Exactly. But actually the money follows. When you do what you love, the money follows. To be very honest with you, even in the art world, and let alone your general audiences in museums and and galleries,
00:06:58
Speaker
We wonder what art advisors do. What is it that you do and how do you make your money? So I am going to very bluntly ask you the question, what does an art advisor do? Well, okay.
00:07:14
Speaker
um I didn't know that was so mysterious. um Then what I do, it's really helping people to navigate the art world as an art advisor. I am an art advisor and a broker. Then I also do sell art. but Let's maybe do it in two parts because I think brokers in the art world is also very mysterious. So let's start with art advising and then you know your activity as a broker because both are very interesting. i think Okay. I'll try to be simple. ah The way I work is I use my knowledge and my experience, and I have 30 years in the art world, and that can be helpful to others to um buy the right thing and know where to go. ah And I help clients that can be
00:08:00
Speaker
private clients or they can be in the trade to find what they need. It's really about finding things. um And with my knowledge, ah for example, if if it's um someone who is new and they love going to the museum and they decide, oh, we also want to have some art on the walls, then the first step would be to define What art do you want? What art do you love? um Also, the I think the value is important because you you can buy, you know you can start at 5,000, 10,000, but you can also buy in the millions and you have to to define a budget in a way.
00:08:45
Speaker
But it's really about what you want to own ah and it's it's a journey. Then you will start with visuals, maybe going to exhibitions or um it's really a discussion and that will emerge. And then from that on,
00:09:01
Speaker
it's about finding the right thing going to the right place to people you can trust and buying something which is what it say it is ah for the right price then it's kind of a balance and if you buy a work of art um if you start there are some very important key points because art is expensive and now more and more you can also see it as investment then before you put the money in you apart from buying what you love which is number one, you also have to have a backup to make sure the price you pay is the right price in relation to the market, for example. Then there are more technical things which are
00:09:44
Speaker
You need to check the provenance. If you buy something which is modern, there has been in Europe two big wars and you have to think of spoliation. You need to make sure that these years during the wars are covered, that we know where things went because you don't want to have a problem the day you lend your artwork to a museum and they say, oh, it doesn't belong to you, but it's Jewish family. You have to give it back.
00:10:10
Speaker
Exactly. then it it doesn't have you know this It doesn't happen often, but this is something to be aware of, and if the provenance is not strong enough, if if the elements are not there, you can't buy the work of art. You have to be very, very careful. Then you have to check something very basic, that the work is by the person it says it is. If you buy a Joanne Miho, for example, you want to make sure it is a Joanne Miho and not a copy. that's you know It sounds silly, but it's important. Then more technical, you might want to know about the condition because that affects the price. Something not in good condition will be more difficult to resell. That will
00:10:53
Speaker
they will reduce the price in a way, then you can buy it, but you just need to be aware of the condition. ah Some people only want to buy something in perfect condition. Some people will be happy to buy something not in so good condition, but at a reduced price. But as long as you do it um with awareness, and that's kind of my role to make sure you know what you buy, and you've checked all the boxes the important boxes, then they are the last. If you buy something quite substantial,
00:11:23
Speaker
There are with also some contracts. ah You have to make sure you have the title of property. you know it's It's just a lot of little detail to to be careful of. ah Like when you buy a house or something expensive, but you will do your homework and I'm there to do the homework. That's amazing. That's really, really enlightening. So the provenance, you know for I think people who listen to us may be more versed in contemporary art. So in contemporary art, it's much more rare to find the issue of provenance, because usually the artwork goes from the studio of the artist to the gallery. So that's not so much an issue in contemporary art. But when you work in contemporary art, is there any change? Because I'm presuming that all those issues, of course, when you speak of the the two world wars in in Europe, um they, of course, pertain to modern art. And even you know before that, provenance is even more important. um And this is the good quality of the artwork you're selling.
00:12:20
Speaker
or your you know finding for your client. But when it comes to contemporary art, do these kind of admin ah quality checks, are they the
Primary vs. Secondary Art Markets
00:12:32
Speaker
same? ah They are actually, it's great you're asking the question because there are two markets, one called the primary market, which is the contemporary market. Primary means it comes from the the the studio of the artist, goes to the gallery and straight to the first owner. Then it's just fresh to the market. It's never been any anywhere else and that's primary. Once someone has owned it,
00:12:59
Speaker
and sell it to someone else you can be after six months after ten years at the hundred years you but you start to go in the secondary market that the work has already an history and that's where you check the provenance the title of um and but property and and so on and so forth. then There are really two markets. In the primary market, of course, it's more straightforward. You buy from a gallery an artist you like. And then the work, I think, as an advisor here,
00:13:35
Speaker
um The first work is accessibility, which is in the very, very um successful contemporary market at the moment. If not an artist is very much in demand, let's say there is an exhibition in a big gallery, you have 30 works, but there are 200 people who want the works. How do they choose? Then an advisor will help you jump the queue.
00:14:01
Speaker
It might take ah one exhibition, two exhibitions, but that's kind of the role to be there, to keep in touch with the right person and make sure you have access. That's a help because that's a lot of time that's knowing the right channel. Then that's what as an advisor you do more in contemporary. The second thing in contemporary, you've got a lot of new artists.
00:14:24
Speaker
How do you choose? How do you navigate that? Some people are more focused than me on this primary or what we call the emerging market where they just know who's hurt.
00:14:38
Speaker
who's good, they talk to curators like you, who look at the artist, they've been to the studio, then it's a bit of a different work. um But that's also very useful to be helped in the the the contemporary or primary market. So I haven't forgotten that you're also a broker.
Art Broker Roles and Payment Structures
00:14:56
Speaker
So what does that mean? Then brokering is when you put A and B together, you have someone who wants to sell a work of art and someone who wants to buy a work of art. And you add the bridge in the middle.
00:15:08
Speaker
Yes. um Then either you place the work or you try to ah find the work. But generally, they for example, I can be um with discussion with a client. At the end, they might just give me the work on consignment. And my role is to um then I would kind of take care of the work for six months until I've placed it in a collection or with someone.
00:15:33
Speaker
ah then that's called brokering. It's really about the deal. Advisory is different. You just give your advice and you will be paid on the advice and that's a little bit different. But either way, you always know for who you work and that's very important from the to beginning. You know if you work for the seller or for the buyer and that's crystal clear and that reflects in who is going to pay you. because that was going to be my next question. I think the most mysterious thing for people and even in the art world, sometimes we talk you know with smaller galleries or curators amongst ourselves and even with artists and we wonder, how do art advisors get paid? How does it work? You're kind of in the middle of the transaction. And so do galleries pay you? Do your clients, do you have a ah portfolio of clients?
00:16:27
Speaker
and then they will pay you monthly for you to find words for them. How does that work? And you know be transparent as much as you can, obviously, because there are secrets of the trade, but can you just enlighten us a little bit about that? I will try, but you might be a bit disappointed because there are as many um ah solution as their advisors and clients. I think I really work with whatever is the need. If someone is totally totally new, the journey would be different and then the way I set the the fees would be kind of because you have to first do the journey of finding what you want and that takes time and that's education. then
00:17:06
Speaker
Then there are many different ways. ah Then that has to be discussed always beforehand. You don't kind of start discussing your fees in the middle of a deal. That doesn't work. I see. You know where you stand, and you say, this is my service. This is is the way I do it. And it really depends what the client needs. If if it's someone you want something, you know you have them. You find the things. You do the full white glove service.
00:17:33
Speaker
that may be on a retainer which means they can pay you per year and then ah you do the work for them. You might also work for, for I might work for someone who's a seasoned collector and he just wants one thing, find me this, then that would be a fee on the work.
00:17:55
Speaker
ah If you're a broker, for example, if I take something on consignment, I will clearly write in the contract what is my my my fee on the sale, then this is but very clear but always from the beginning because the worst is when you're in the middle of closing a transaction.
00:18:16
Speaker
or an acquisition of a work, and you start drawing numbers and trying to make room for yourself. that That's not the way I work. And I think clarity from the beginning, who you work with, what is your um work and your added value, and how much you're going to be paid for that. And then everyone's happy. You know, I have to tell you, Liberté, how many times have people contacted me to do a talk to do an interview, to write a text, to curate an exhibition without telling me how I'm going to get paid, how much I'm going to get paid, when I'm going to get paid. And I'm always the one to say, okay, that's interesting, but can we talk money?
Money Talk Taboos in the Art World
00:19:02
Speaker
You know, and it kind of feels like in the art world. And i that leads me to my next question. Money is a bit of a dirty word. You don't really want to talk about it. um I think we've inherited this thing of the salon, you know, in the 18th and 19th century where people would do art as a hobby.
00:19:20
Speaker
And professionals in the art world kind of have especially independent ones like myself and you and to a certain extent. um We have to really battle for it in the contemporary art world. And I'm a bit jealous, I have to say, of what you're saying. And I think it's really interesting for our listeners who are independent workers as well and also for the artists sometimes.
00:19:42
Speaker
To really not be ashamed of talking about money, and I'm talking about this because how many artists have I told, you know, you need to be very clear with your galleries, you need to discuss percentages, you need to discuss payments.
00:19:57
Speaker
you need to discuss the system of payment um and I always have the answer of oh yeah but you know I'd never think about those things like how how do you not think of wearing the capitalist society you have to think of your capital you know it's it's incredible so thank you that's that's amazing to add on that I think yes Jerry Daisy's kind of idea of art is beautiful, art is for the heart, and that's why you know the conversation with the money doesn't always come at the forefront because you don't want to keep the poetry. That's one thing. so like Secondly, um
00:20:33
Speaker
eat in In Europe, the the notion of service is not the same as in America. I think people don't really see the added value, they don't see what you bring to the table, and they would take your advice as a curator. you know you've You've got many years of seeing so many things you know so much, but they will just ask you for your opinion. Your opinion is valuable.
00:20:57
Speaker
But it will it will be difficult for you to then charge and people are not used to that and they are not really wanting to do that. Then that's a problem. That's that's a difficult conversation for advisors, for curators, for artists. I can totally get it. I get in America, it's more It would be easier to say, you know I help you, I give you this service, the the service system is is better. I don't think in Europe people really pay, but then then it's normal you feel like that. It's not really easy to bring the the money thing to the table. That's why I always think it's better to bring it
00:21:37
Speaker
right in front, right right at the beginning. And say you yeah and also in the app where we help a lot, and I do so many things for free. and um I also believe in being generous, because if you are generous, things go in the world, they come to you. It can't be ah by the meter, basically. you just I give a lot.
00:21:58
Speaker
and then you establish a good relationship, ah ah some trust, and then you can work together. And I'm sure with curators it's the same, because how long is it before a museums start to pay you, for example? Yes. Well, for curators, with especially independent curators, it's very simple. You are hired to do an exhibition and you do it. The problem is that you sometimes people reach out to you you start working and you think, okay, I'll i'll draw out you know ah a plan or or an exhibition or a concept. And then suddenly you're three, four, five, six months in and you haven't discussed the fee yet. So at a certain point you kind of go, oh, wait a minute. I'm not, I'm okay. We're having this discussion. Cause one thing is to have a meeting with someone and discuss possibilities.
00:22:50
Speaker
And you're giving, like you say, free samples. Like I just had a conversation with a high profile curator who's in the museum and we were talking about collections and I said, well, you know, I find it really interesting to do this and this and this and within the collection as an exhibition. And I learned afterwards that they had taken this idea and and and taken it to fruition. And I'm very happy. I don't want that idea. I mean, ideas, you know, I was going to say something very rude, but I'm going to say something else. Ideas are like noses. everyone Everyone has them. I was going to say another part of the body because the expression is very, very rude. So I'm so glad I stopped myself.
00:23:35
Speaker
Anyway, um that's great. That's just part of conversations. And I'm very happy. And my husband keeps telling me, oh, people steal ideas from you all the time. It's not stealing. It's just the way it works as professionals. We discuss. We talk. And anyway, things are in the zeitgeist. They're in the air. And so if you don't do it, someone else will do it. And that's perfect. It's fine. But then when you're contacted by an institution,
00:24:03
Speaker
to do a talk, say, for example, they give you the contact of the artist, you start working with the artist and you're already in the midst of the of working towards a project, towards a talk and no one has asked you or told you anything about a fee.
00:24:18
Speaker
That's problematic. It is, and it's very, you're not at ease, but we must learn, especially as a woman, to put the question on the table. And that's a learning curve. Yes, preach. And that we have a big smile, and we have value. It's also thinking of your own worst. Because if you don't ask, it's like you don't value your advice. And at one point, you just have to say, I'm worth it. And you're not respected.
00:24:47
Speaker
yeah im then you respect i'm bringing some exactly I'm bringing something to the table and of course you're very lucky Joanna because you've got about 10 ideas a minute then if you lose one doesn't matter because you know your brain is so full of ideas and fresh and you know this is wonderful about you, um then it's great not to get a grudge about losing one idea, but it's also, I think all of us as women, I guess men too, but especially I feel as women, we need to learn to ask. Yes, absolutely. Now I'm very, I mean, I've come to a point when I, when I'm invited to something, I reply back saying, very interested, what would be the fee?
00:25:27
Speaker
or do you want to tell you my fee? I have no issues, no qualms whatsoever. And now I'm kind of preaching about it. I'm talking to artists, because with artists, it's terrible. Artists who don't have values. It must be even harder. It's even harder, because they, like you say, oh, it kind of destroys the poetry. It doesn't. It makes you, and I think what you said is absolutely crucial, it makes you be respected. People respect you when you know your own value.
00:25:58
Speaker
And another thing I wanted to highlight is that you're absolutely right. There's a big difference between the United States and Europe. There's a huge gap in the way um work is appreciated and how you put money where you put you where you put value. there's In the United States, those two things go together. ah Even in the art world, whereas here, it's much more difficult. And I want to say here, i I think the UK is kind of an exception. I think the UK is has the yeah u k times yes has a in the United States. It's kind of a similar mentality, but in the rest of Europe, it's still very difficult and people don't understand what it is to work independently.
00:26:43
Speaker
as an intermediary, you know which is what we do. So I'm very happy to do this episode with you, but now I have a very difficult question for you. Another one.
Reputation Challenges for Art Advisors
00:26:53
Speaker
Another one, which is that, um okay, so art advisors are demonized, right? even you know You and I were in Paris for Art Basel um last week.
00:27:05
Speaker
And even last week, someone told me, you know, oh, the art world, the speculative market, dah, dah, dah. And the art advisors, I mean, they're the ones who are ah messing up the system and they're guilty of supporting speculative prices, dah, dah, dah. So what would you say about that? I mean, I'm sure that, like with everything, there are art advisors and art advisors. So probably the way you work might be different from another way of working for another art advisor.
00:27:34
Speaker
But how how do you respond to that? Because I'm i'm sure you're aware of it. I don't know. ah As you say, they are art advisor, and art advisor, and art advisor, and art advisor. They come in every shape and forms. in Anyone can call themselves art advisor. After COVID, there was a big joke. It was the Gmail art advisor. Everyone was art advisor at Gmail, then already like a Gmail. That's kind of like, all right, are you a real professional?
00:28:05
Speaker
i yeah I think you I work with a lot of people who are extremely professional, they know what they're doing, they're serious, they really give a service. In the industry, which is becoming more and more of a very serious industry, there are lots of very, very good people.
00:28:23
Speaker
um Of course, you have people who make the news because it's a glamorous industry and now there's one big art advisor called um Lisa Schiff to just um kind of yeah fall down. Yeah, she just fell down a a big pedestal and she She screwed up completely and now she's pleading guilty. This does not help. Not everyone is like her and also you have to realize that... So what does she do for our listeners who are probably not aware of who this is she? I'm not entirely sure because I tried to stay away from these things but basically it was a bit of like a Ponzi scheme. She had some, not really a Ponzi scheme, but she had some clients and she used money
00:29:11
Speaker
from the clients to kind of um enjoy a very beautiful life and she was earning money and at one point it just didn't add up and the whole thing fell out and she was a really really really big art advisor.
00:29:29
Speaker
She was huge and she was advising ah big LA superstars and that's going to be in the news and that's not good. ah But not everyone is like that. And I can also imagine that when you are in this kind of circle of superstars, when you have lots of millions of dollars, the temptation is higher than then in other places. and you know that's It can happen, but there are lots of very correct other advisor. You can work in transparency. um I really believe in transparency and everything is going to be more and more transparent anyway. Then um you have contracts, you have things which are clear. You can show the invoices. um
00:30:18
Speaker
you know I don't think it should be demon yeah demonized, as you say. I think it's getting more and more, not regulated, but more and more transparent, more and more serious people. ah But you just have to be careful who you hire, then make your research, work with people who are in the know, who have a ah good um curriculum, who have some experience, um I would do that. um Like in any industry, you know you would not take an insurance broker who is a GMAT insurance broker.
Art as Investment vs. Passion
00:30:51
Speaker
Okay, so I have a question from from another angle, which is that we've had conversations in Paris, so we were visiting Autvers.
00:30:58
Speaker
and um I have a feeling when I talk to you and to some of your colleagues that there are certain kinds of works that you wouldn't be able to sell to your clients because the artists are not known enough or maybe their they're not in the right platforms, for example, even if they are in an art fair, they are not the right investment, let's say. So there's a fine line between investment and pleasure in what you do. So my question to you would be, do you wait for the artist to get to a certain stage
00:31:35
Speaker
um Do you have clients who don't care and just want a certain kind of work and you look for that kind of work for them? um Do you have frustrations sometimes in really loving an artist and thinking, I will never be able to place an artwork of this person because I know you to be incredibly passionate.
00:31:54
Speaker
about contemporary art, even though I introduced you as a kind of Impressionism specialist, you are incredibly aware of contemporary art and you have a fine, ah detailed way of looking at things. And i so I've seen you take a lot of pleasure in that. So tell me a little bit about that. um then It's funny, you always um think of pleasure and then the investment. ah They can go together. ah The pleasure is there but and should always be there, especially if you are someone who's going to buy art. ah I really see myself as someone who's a safeguard and um you can buy anything you want. This is not a problem. Any artist, you know you can go in every direction.
00:32:39
Speaker
um You just have to do your homework to make sure you are buying the right thing. and And I think the art of buying, and that's where the role of the art advisor is, is often not to buy. You don't want to buy everything. You have to focus on quality. Yeah, I'm always i figures way out there to make sure you are not buying. ah Because people are not aware that there's so many people who buy compulsively. I work the galleries and I've seen that.
00:33:09
Speaker
And these people, they don't need someone to advise them. They know what they're doing, and but they might take someone to help them, saying, oh, all right. Yeah, to to take a step back relax, take a step back, and maybe have a more cohesive collection, and um and maybe organize their tastes a little bit better, and not buy the same thing over and over again. you know yeah i mean But if you find your gallery of your then the the commercial gallery of your dream, you love their program entirely, this is your taste, you don't need someone else to help you. You just find someone nice in that gallery and you buy their program in depth. And that could be one way to do it. Why not? ah um After, if you want to have more diversification or you don't know where to start, that's maybe good to have a conversation with
00:34:00
Speaker
Someone like you joined I was a curator or someone like me you kind of help just thinking what do we really want to buy? um You know which direction being a bit careful because you know, you could turn out fair. It's like a candy store. It's so tempting Yeah, especially on Basel this year. Oh, yeah, exactly. just ah It's a joy. And then if you are really into very contemporary artists, maybe you work with someone who's really into the emerging artists. I'm more kind of solid with the 20th century, um then but I also do contemporary, but they they I would not be the person for pure, pure, pure contemporary ethic.
00:34:41
Speaker
ah And then there are some artists I absolutely adore and I work with and I really want to place them. I work with an estate for example and I absolutely adore work and I'm going beyond my um your role due my role exactly to to talk to a curator.
Curators and Advisors: A Complementary Relationship
00:35:03
Speaker
we've We've talked about that artist placing her in museums, helping the estate. and but I'm passionate about that artist and I own some of her work. I think you and I are very complimentary in the sense that you bring a clear perspective from and within the market and for the market
00:35:20
Speaker
And I think you write curators balance out things because let's not be naive. Obviously, the work I did with my co-curator Joanna Carrier for the artist Emma Blank, obviously, was a touring exhibition within Europe and Israel.
00:35:37
Speaker
and Of course, it contributes to bring the prices up, you know, if she does all these procedures exhibitions, but we bring the artists because we believe in the quality of the work. So in some ways, we inject a completely different perspective into the market, which is, okay, we are art specialists, we can explain by curating a perfect show that this artist is incredible, is worth taking into institutions. And when you create create shows in institutions as well, what happens, especially when it's individual shows, sometimes the museum buys the work, which has happened with Irma Blank. So obviously the price goes up. She's more valued because she's in more institutional collections.
00:36:26
Speaker
But that's not why we do the work. We do the work because we believe in the artist. So we come from another perspective. Exactly. And that should be your pride. I think your pride is not in her selling more or less. And your pride is you believed in her, you love her work, you're touched by her work, and you really want to bring her to the world. And how beautiful that at the end, she ended up with five shows, she ends up with um pieces in the museum and then now a great gallery will represent her. you know That should be your pride and actually that's the the the essence of your work is to reveal to the work to the world some artist and she's not an easy artist, she's quite minimalist and you really brought her to light and thank you Joanna for that. It's because she's wonderful.
00:37:14
Speaker
Yeah, she's incredible. So speaking of exhibitions, we're going to move on to the second part of our conversation, which is about exhibitions. But in this ah context today, it's not about an exhibition that you and I have visited like Emily and I do. This is a different kind of question. So the first one I have for you is, what was the exhibition?
00:37:38
Speaker
that marked something for you that was foundational, even if it was when you were five years old. like What was the exhibition you visited that really changed the game for you and even maybe convinced you to work in the art world?
Impactful Exhibitions and Personal Experiences
00:37:57
Speaker
For me, the the the exhibition which was the most important in in a way that it really brought me so much clarity and I really saw how an exhibition can transform your view of an artist and your understanding was in New York in 1996 when I went to MoMA.
00:38:19
Speaker
on my own because that's always where I have to the biggest kind of relief revelation when I'm on my own. Even though I love going to exhibition with you, I always think when you go and see an exhibition, I go as a as my my old 15 years old and very fresh mind and I'm like bring it on, show me, talk to me, um the doors are opening and then you really have to open your mind and focus and and start the dialogue with the artist and I was in Montmartre in New York and I went to see a very big show called ah Picasso and Portraiture which was about representation
00:39:01
Speaker
of the different woman in his life and the transformation in his work. And I don't know why, but the way he was set up in the MoMA, which is a very big museum with big rooms, was one room per woman in Picasso's life. And Picasso had different partners in his life with always very different stories, and they were well told. And the women are very different. And they each of them When he loves them, they become part of his oeuvre.
00:39:37
Speaker
It's very funny how they are the oeuvre and the oeuvre is what the artist has to say and it all goes together. then It's not about the woman herself and it's not about just the oeuvre. Each woman brings something new in his discourse.
00:39:54
Speaker
He was so clear, the decades, you know, there's Olga, the wife, um she's a ah Russian dancer, he meets her and he starts to be successful and he's becoming a bit of a bourgeois, he's 40 years old, he has his first child and it's it's the end of the First World War and his line is very classical, there is ah the whole kind of ah in Europe there's a whole movement about return to order and it's everything is classic. The drawings are classic, the representation is classic, they they look at Aang and he's becoming quite bourgeois and this is a very big phase, beautiful phase in his in his oeuvre. Then that was one room and then you move to the suddenly
00:40:46
Speaker
you know After being such a bourgeois, he gets a little bit bored, the old guy becomes quite difficult. I think she's bipolar and it's a bit of a hell in his couple. And he meets this young woman, she's 17 years old, she's blonde, she's very sporty, she's called Marie Therese. And a big love affair will start.
00:41:04
Speaker
And his painting completely transformed, very colorful, full of love. ah Then in that that room you can see all the pastel colors, very bright colors, the love, the fern, the hues, and the sex. It's everywhere, it's like completely overwhelming. And that's Mahiteh's phase. With the 17-year-olds, ah, old Picasso.
00:41:28
Speaker
yeah I know, I know. That's why he's been a bit in the gutter, but he's coming back now. it' it's I am happy to leave him in the gutter, but I can see that you're very passionate about him. No, you have to look at the art, not at the life, but ah that's another conversation. and yeah And then you move to, it meets Dohama after that relationship. And Dohama, she's a very strong, brunette, surrealist artist, a big character. And she will become La Fanquipla, the crying woman because Spain is going through a terrible, terrible ah civil war. And this is very painful for Picasso, thepan the Spaniard.
00:42:12
Speaker
And that kind of reflects through the woman and that exhibition really showed how Picasso transformed with what was going on outside in the world through the woman he was.
00:42:26
Speaker
loving and choosing as sitters and that was such a revelation um and actually yeah it's been my anchor um for reading Picasso of you know each time you show me a Picasso I can immediately know where that fits because I have this exhibition who has structured my mind and my understanding of his very long career and very very ah fratctuious um of I can always relate to that that that exhibition and to have such a revelation. you know I would be ah always thankful to the curators who have put that together. It was incredible. But what would be your big exhibition Joanna? What did change your your life? um I've been thinking about that and I have to say I wasn't aware of curating weirdly when I was a child.
00:43:20
Speaker
And um I think it's difficult to understand curating. And that's why, you know, in in some ways, it's one of the reasons why I decided to set up the book cause because people are not always aware of the fact that we really think exhibitions.
00:43:35
Speaker
and I love your example because feminism aside, that's such a detailed exhibition that we don't have very often because people are presented as like these geniuses coming from a sort of pure cloud where, no, you're touched by the moment you're going through in history, you're going to a touch by politics, even if you're a very minimalist, which is what I learned with Erma Blank,
00:43:58
Speaker
painter or artist, there is change across time in your work and I think that's really interesting and it is the job of the of curating to do that and to and it's not done ah precisely very often.
00:44:12
Speaker
But of course, you know, um exhibitions per se, if I go way back, I don't have a specific exhibition, but I have an experience in a space. When I was growing up in Lisbon, my mum would take me to Gulbenkian Foundation.
00:44:29
Speaker
And she always nice you you know the space. It's incredible. And for those who don't know, ah Portugal went through a very long dictatorship, which most people know, but it had a ah real impact on art. So there was no art anywhere.
00:44:45
Speaker
art museums only showed very official art, which is was not that bad actually, when but that would be a whole other conversation. The Gubenkin Foundation was founded by Mr. Gubenkin, who's called the 1%, because he put 1%, he sold his um fuel um ah business ah in return ah for having always having 1% of the income from the company. And so with that, he just built a huge collection and he's he he set himself up in Portugal for some reason. He fell in love with ah with the country, he was Armenian.
00:45:22
Speaker
and he lived in Paris for a long time and then he moved to Portugal. And that was the only place during the dictatorship that you had contemporary art or you had modern art and that artists could tap into in in terms of grants to go study elsewhere and to move away from the country, which was under such a horrible dictatorship. So, Gobenkin was really important in Portugal.
00:45:45
Speaker
um And it keeps on having an amazing activity. They have incredible exhibitions and they have the permanent collection. And I remember my mom taking me there. And my my poor mom, I don't know how she and know she how she put up with me. I remember being very, very, i probably under 10 years old and explaining the abstract works. I loved the abstraction and the colors and just explaining the paintings to my mom.
00:46:12
Speaker
I don't know if she was very patient or she was probably laughing, her you know, her socks off. I'm sure she was very happy because often children, they just can't, they can't care less in an exhibition. Very difficult for them to focus and if you have a child who's looking at something, this is bliss.
00:46:29
Speaker
Yeah, she loved it. So I think she probably was very happy to also, you know, get some time with the with the artworks. And there's an artist in in Portugal called Gézet Guillemerage. And he illustrated children's books, but he was also in Galbenkian.
00:46:45
Speaker
And he has these very stilisie, very schematic. It was that time, it was the end of the 70s, beginning of the 80s, where you had a lot of abstraction and a lot of colors, so inherited from modernism in ah children's books and in education. And so we were still in that blissful time where those things were important. And I remember seeing him in my books and then seeing him in the museum was such an incredible thing. And it spoke so much to me.
00:47:15
Speaker
um and so yeah okay that that's my piece That must be your challenge for 2025. You must meet him. I have to meet him. I take you on that. We check on the on the podcast at the end of 2025. You must meet him. That's it. That's it. Yeah, child close a circle yes challenged yeah that challenge. Everyone is listening. You've you've got the challenge.
00:47:41
Speaker
so I have another question for you now, which is, what is the exhibition that gives you the most FOMO? yeah The exhibition where you think, ah I wish I could have been there you know either because you weren't born yet or because um you were somewhere else and you've heard of this show. What is the exhibition that gives you that feeling?
Historical and Contemporary Art Discussions
00:48:02
Speaker
okay For FOMO, I think um coming back to your podcast,
00:48:08
Speaker
you realise that I live in a big town, London, where there are lots of fantastic exhibitions. Oh, I know where you're going. And I guess that's why you started that podcast. I can miss them so easily, which makes me so angry with myself. Then Now, I have set a time every week to go and see exhibitions, not to miss them. And you travel the world and you miss what's on your doorstep. That's FOMO number one, which I'm working on it. I'm curating it. I'm kind of on demand. And I think your podcast is also a big help.
00:48:49
Speaker
to know what's going on, what not to be missed in my own town. Then that's first formal. And then for, you know, as a specialist in Impressionism, modern art. the The one exhibition that was always a dream and I think is a dream of anyone in my field is the first ah impression Impressionist um exhibition which took place in 1874 in Paris ah in a small photographer studio
00:49:24
Speaker
the the nada studio exactly and all the the impressionists they got so fed up with the studio not with the salon not to get in they set up their own exhibition small room and they were like okay let's roll on And that's kind of where it all started. And then if ah there was one exhibit exhibition where it can be a little teeny um mosquitoes and go in and watch it would be that. I think that's kind of where it all started. it it's It's also what it is about avant-garde and you know breaking from the mold. It's just fantastic. And thanks God, last year, the Musee d'Orsay,
00:50:11
Speaker
in celebration of the 150 hundred fifty years sorry of ah the Impressionist movement, they put together a fantastic exhibition which recreated the Nada Studio and they found most of the works. You're giving me FOMO, that's it. oh That's a big FOMO right now. but ah your That's a big FOMO. And actually it was according to ah one of your colleagues, a curator at the OSCE. It was per day and the the length of the exhibition, the most um successful exhibition they ever had in terms of numbers, which is incredible because he was when I went in, I was so happy and I
00:50:56
Speaker
you see the Nada Studio and exactly with the all the painting and they kind of recreated the place and this also show a lot of paintings from the saddle that you can see what was taste of the time and what the impressionists were trying to create, which is a complete different feel in terms of painting and and what they wanted to say. And that was a very interesting way to really show what was happening at the time in Paris. And I thought, oh, that's quite a niche exhibition. But actually, it's a really big blockbuster. And now it's your second chance
00:51:33
Speaker
I don't know if you're going to take that, but it's in Washington. It just opened in Washington two weeks ago. You walk in and you are you are there. It's 1874. It's incredible. It's so interesting that you're talking about this the the need for the impressionist, which is arguably, and from what you say, the most famous and appreciated movement since the mid-19th century for the general public. It's interesting to know that they had no place to show their work. They were not appreciated, and we forget that. And not many people went, and the people who went, they were laughing their head off. They hated it. No, they actually didn't I hated it. I think some did, but a lot of people were just making fun and a lot of critics. They were just like having a complete love. People were going there to have a love. But what's interesting in that exhibition is you see that the works, which are a bit now out of fashion from the real salon, the official salon, was also very, very good.
00:52:39
Speaker
Yes, of course. It was this fantastic big painting which I now kind of put a bit of it on the side in museums and and it's a shame because there are some fantastic paintings. And by the way, I i always think when I go to big art fairs, the whole world is rushing there and everyone is well dressed and it's like it's big social events and and it's all about painting. And for me, I'm sure that but we are living now. It's more or less what's what's happening at the salon, this kind of rush. and And that's why I always think the outfit are the salon of the time. And you know it was a moment where Europe was wealthy. like you know We are in a wealthy moment also, and it's it's the same.
00:53:25
Speaker
Oh my gosh, is I'm so happy because no one can see me but I just gasped and kind of like put my hand to my mouth because I've been, I was saying this and now in Paris last week, I was saying this is arpompier. So for those who don't know, arpompier is and a term that characterizes a very kind of in-your-face, unsubtle, unsophisticated type of work that was very um Like neo-neoclassicism that was um very famous at the end of the
00:54:04
Speaker
yeah it's It's really from, I don't know when it starts, but it's really all the 19th century. Exactly. And then it goes all the way and then it morphs into the exposition universelle, where they were also integrating ah furniture and discoveries and architecture. and and But they there were these big places where people were coming in mass. That's really interesting because I do share what you're saying. I mean, there's a lot of what we see, even in museums nowadays,
00:54:33
Speaker
that will not stand the test of time. But it's also important that it is there because one of the things I usually say in the podcast is that sometimes you look, for example, Jose Bonar is a very good example of a female artist who was ah yeah She painted animals. She was a notorious lesbian of the 19th century. And she painted what she could paint. And then she expressed herself through those animals that she depicted. And I remember being in when I lived in Paris, there was kind of a turning point where she went from being considered kitsch
00:55:10
Speaker
to being considered someone who was saying something through a very strong symbolism with animals and a very expressive kind of painting. And she was finally appreciated. So it's always good to have things there. You know, I'm not against buying and and investing and and taking a risk.
00:55:26
Speaker
because sometimes things make sense in a certain time and then they don't in another and then they make sense again. So, you know, but still... Exactly. No, but it's also what is um contemporary art. You know, there is a lot being created. You need to show it. And things will stand the...
00:55:45
Speaker
withstanding time, some will not, some will disappear and reappear. and But this is kind of the the the roots of creation. that's that's That's how things are made and and everyone is expressing them themselves and you have different mediums and all that. And that's also how a curator or an art advisor can help.
00:56:07
Speaker
sift through that. weve not much and There is not much ah gap and and it's it's difficult to sift through that because um we are in our time but that's the idea also is to help singing in this sea of artists and works and trends and trans and and um and curators are are there to to explain and and and see. And I think the yeah other advisors also speak to curators and understand and study a bit more. That's how you can help. Well done, Liberté, for bringing us back to the issue at hand today. I have one final question for you and thank you so much for putting up with me for an
Exhibition Preferences and Sustainability Considerations
00:56:53
Speaker
hour now. um So what would be
00:56:57
Speaker
the exhibition you would like to see in the future. What do you want people to set up in a museum? What kind of exhibitions would you like to see? What artists maybe you'd like to have a bigger focus on in the future? Oh, um I'm a fan of monographic exhibition when you focus on one artist because that's really what helps to understand who's the artist and get into the earth. An artist complex says the good days, the bad days and it's often span of 30, 40, 50 years and I think for me my favorite exhibitions are when they are monographic and they really take an artist and they allow you to understand and make a judgment or
00:57:50
Speaker
or get into the the work, then whoever it is. ah I think it's it's very important to revisit often um the big artists and the museum are doing that ah in different continents. um you know All of them, you you realize maybe a fair knowledge. We don't speak much about him and maybe... Oh, yes. That would be wonderful.
00:58:14
Speaker
he He has a complicated end and there are lots of problems but you know maybe him and and I think museum are quite good every 20-30 years to bring back an artist which you know has been a little bit forgotten and nowadays a big emphasis on Van Gogh and Monet ah but these exhibitions are going to be more and more difficult because the the cost of moving these works around and the insurance costs are enormous and I think for the moment I'm really enjoying.
00:58:50
Speaker
saying at the National Gallery days ah in London, there is a great long-going exhibition, which I don't think you can repeat that. it It's 61 works by him. They've made a huge effort. it it's it's I don't know how they can borrow so much, I guess, because they are at the National Gallery of London. but And the cost of it, it's we are so spoiled to have that in in in in the city. yeah Yeah, that's a great answer.
00:59:17
Speaker
Because even for reasons of sustainability, you know, Judy Chicago, when she did the show at the Serpentine, she didn't bring all her big works. Interesting. That's another big problem. That's another big problem. um Because I was speaking to a collector who grew up in South America, and she was saying, well, you're all talking about sustainability, but in my country, ah the only way to see the old masters is if they travel there.
00:59:45
Speaker
And I think, well, yes, but at the same time, you know, you probably have local big masters and, you know, and you do a big trip once in a lifetime and you see all the masters. um I don't know. I don't have any answers that don't sound cruel, but it is true that those exhibitions might be very difficult also for these reasons. And there's there's a big, we have to rethink a lot what we do. Maybe we extend exhibitions and leave them. I mean, the Van Gogh exhibition.
01:00:10
Speaker
I don't know, could stay for three years over there and they could find other ways of making people... That's a good way. that's so good I'm sure there are some problems because you can't borrow things forever, but I think longer, less is more. Just do better, but longer. Things can still circulate. There's other ways of circulating. It's just a question of preparing things in advance. and The question is the conservation. The question is the, you know, the preparing things in advance. We don't always in the art world prepare things. I mean, when you're an independent curator and you work in small galleries, you know, that museums have their programs, you know, done for five, 10 years and you think, oh, that's a long time. But it's not. It's not such a long time when you think about it. So it's it's a question of timing. But
01:00:57
Speaker
you've brought the attention to something that's incredible. First of all, the reason why it's so nice to visit exhibitions with you, and I'm with you, I love to go on my own, but it's so nice to visit them with you, because sometimes you're looking at a contemporary, very contemporary, you know, someone who's in their 40s producing something, and you think, oh, this makes me think of Kaibut, and I'm like, oh, okay, that's not where my mind would go. So it's always fascinating. And you're also bringing the attention to,
01:01:26
Speaker
solo exhibitions, which will be our next episode. We will do a next episode on Mike Kelly. So having said this, thank you so much, Liberty. This was such a pleasure. I think we could go on for now or more, but we don't want to torture our listeners. I think now is the right balance and been really, really insightful and exciting talking to you. And I'm pretty sure that our listeners now will be much more enlightened in regards to all these agents of the art world between the studio of the artist and the collection, you know, all of us work in there and we all do something useful and I think it's important to put the message out there, so thank you so much. Thank you Joanna, it's been a lot of fun to do the podcast with you and yeah I hope you know some answer would be brought, I have been brought to light and let's carry on s seeing exhibition and great art.