Transcript
Speaker: Hey everyone, Dan here. Welcome to another episode of Forward Looking Leadership. Today, I'm honored to be joined by Joe Davis. Joe is the former head of Boston Consulting Group North America and the author of the new book, The Generous Leader, Seven Ways to Give of Yourself for Everyone's Gain.
Speaker: Joe, thanks for joining us on Forward Looking Leadership.
Speaker: Thank you, Dan. Thank you for having me and looking forward to the conversation. Likewise. Joe, so first, can you walk us through some of your career highlights? And i know some longtime listeners might be surprised to hear me ask this. This is something that I almost always avoid trying to get into. But I think it's important here for people to really hear your message on generous leadership to know the level that you are operating at.
Speaker: Okay, well, thank you. and I will try to make it the highlights. are you know i'm I'm old enough, we could be here all day. so After college, I worked at Procter & Gamble, as as you know, and I spent time as a salesperson and got promoted as sales manager.
Speaker: Then went on, which actually, even if we want to talk about it, some interesting lessons, even in those first three or four years of my career. Then went on to Harvard Business School and got a job at BCG, Boston Consulting Group, as a summer intern.
Speaker: Accepted a full-time offer and worked at BCG for 37 years, which is quite unusual to your point. I mean, consulting is not the easiest person's game. And quite a career there. I spent time in the Boston office, in Australia, co-opened our Washington office, worked on the West Coast. And um a number of different, you know, i started our public sector practice.
Speaker: I led our Northeast and I also led BCG North America, 7,000 people. um And ah interestingly, during the COVID time, I mean, that was the middle of my tenure, which was It was quite a good time to be a leader if you liked to lead in a crisis. It was a great time. um So that's, you know, that's it in the highlights. So I've seen, and I've, of course, through BCG worked with many clients, many corporations, nonprofits and for-profit, of course, and government. I thought to mention, think I founded our government practice and a lot of CEOs along the way who I got to observe, you know, the
Speaker: good ones, the great ones, and the just fine ones. And some who, sometimes you wonder how they got in the role, but that's okay. Well, thanks so much for sharing that with listeners. And again, I think it's important context for the topic that we're going to get into today, which is what is the difference between generous leadership and just being a nice person? I know in a lot of people's minds, this sounds like it might be something that leadership development people say and is kind of this touchy feely, nice to have kind of thing that in reality they feel
Speaker: the people who actually get ahead don't enact. We're going get into it in all the different questions today, but I want to start with what do you see as this main difference between true generosity and simply being nice?
Speaker: Well, it's interesting. I think when I say the word generosity, of course, I don't mean more money in that because, but what I mean is the leader really thinks it's their job to train, give of themselves and help others grow and develop to be at their best. And that's the generous part. You're generously giving to yourself for others to really thrive. And it's opposite of nice because sometimes we can maybe talk about it, but if you might have to give feedback, that's very tough and very direct. so someone would say, well, that's not very nice. But quite frankly, if you're helping somebody grow, it's probably the nicest thing you could do. And some people are just sweet people and that's wonderful. They often
Speaker: maybe not in the roles we're talking about, but sometimes nice is just a code for fear. You know, like I don't want to give the feedback I'm afraid to, or I don't want to be tough right now because um because they're not going to like me, or I don't want to make a decision and I want to be nice and get everybody involved because I'm afraid to make the decision. But in my mind, generous is none of that. It's actually all the great management talent skills, plus really making it your job to grow your team.
Speaker: The other part about this kind of feedback is you're really doing it with them in mind, them growing, them getting past their roadblocks, you can almost say whatever you want. And i had ah I was running the West Coast and there was a person there who had transferred in from Europe.
Speaker: In Europe, he was a superstar. He was underperforming the United States for whatever reasons. And it had been two years in a BCG, if you're a partner, and after three years, if you're not performing, you kind of go away. um And he and I were sitting down, and I knew this was eating at him because he was a superstar before. And i said to him, I said, listen, my friend, you have three choices.
Speaker: You go home, you quit, or I fire you. You pick. He said, thank you, Joe. I've been thinking about, you know, because someone said, how could you be so blunt? Well, I knew he was sitting there at night in his bed, worried about which. And he said, I'll go home. He went home. and He's a superstar again. And so some may someone say, well, that was really harsh and really direct.
Speaker: Actually, I take the opposite point of view. I think it was kind and direct and helpful. And he picked an action and he moved on. You know, otherwise he was stuck and hurting. Yeah. Yeah. What do you contrast generous leadership with? What is this an answer to?
Speaker: What are other alternative ways of thinking about leadership that this is different from? i think probably the best way to say it is the command and control, you know, so you're and and distant.
Speaker: So, I mean, not to, so, you know, well, won't pick on these, but we all, you know, there's, The leader sends down the orders and it and you know everyone marches to him. No questions. Do what you're told. Be in line. And you know maybe I will say, you think of the days of IBM, the white shirt, the blue suit. you know And IBM is a great company and it's evolved massively. so not big But you know you remember those days. And even Apple did that funny commercial where the IBM people walking and falling off the cliff. i mean, those days where you were just a cog in the wheel, people didn't work to connect with you as an employee. You had your role. That's all you did.
Speaker: So either could be just that, which isn't very, you know, you don't feel engaged or, or, you know, the really command and control model. I guess two questions here. So one is, what is your read on what's made this shift from command and control to generosity makes sense?
Speaker: And two, for listeners who might see these very public, let's say non-generous leaders seeming to succeed, why shouldn't they just emulate that?
Speaker: Two things really. One, the biggest one is technology. So, you know, our work life world has blurred and it started blurring with the Blackberry many years ago. But all of a sudden you could be on 24 seven, 365. It was never like that. Your boss wasn't going to call you at 1030 at night at home. Now they can send you. And so went to Blackberry to the to the phone, you know, and everything. So the the The always on the work life blurring is one thing that's fundamental and that COVID only pushed it further. And so people could no longer separate the two as well as they used to. So I could be myself at home and I could be my work person at work. Now I'm working at home. That's funny. Or in my living room with my counterpart in their kitchen or I'm at work and I for many, many hours and I want to be myself more.
Speaker: So I think technology has driven work life balance change blur so that we need to bring our human self to work. We want to and we need to. And then you start to look for a leader to bring themselves their human side that as well as, you know, was thinking about this.
Speaker: some people say to me why does that matter well the best people will quit if you don't engage with them it doesn't matter now maybe but other thing has changed is it you know it's we never had mean guaranteed life employment like maybe japan did but if you got a job at png or um you know ibm many years ago and had a role you kind did have that job your whole life if you wanted to And that broke on their side, too, for a lot. You know, two things have changed where you say, OK, you want me here.
Speaker: I have to deliver. I get it. But you have to grow me or I'm going to go somewhere else. I think those are the two things that have changed. the most. And some people say to me, oh, the young people, they're just going to grow up and shame be like us and guts it out.
Speaker: But no, no, the it's changed. You know, you you and i well, you're at home and I'm at home probably. So, you know, we're not doing this from an office. Now you asked about some of these famous leaders today. Well, you know, I say,
Speaker: Sure. if You're a genius. So are you a genius? That eliminates most of us. And you have a genius idea, like, let's say, Mark Zuckerberg, and it happened to be just at the right time and it worked out. You could maybe get away with a lot of crap.
Speaker: you know So Elon Musk can get away with a lot of crap. Mark Zuckerberg get lot of it. But the thing that's interesting is I bet you every manager... Well, first off, I have a lot of... friends who have children who work to Facebook in these places, and they last two or three years and they're out of there.
Speaker: And they say, I don't like the culture. I don't like the environment. They're not. You know, they sort. So it's not like they're staying forever. some are. But I will guarantee you there's got to be um managers within that place, leaders who are trying to connect with their people and help them grow or they're not staying.
Speaker: And also, you know, so sure, some of these guys, but it's not that many. You know, you go look at most of the jobs in the world, most the corporations. who are very good CEOs. They're trying to engage with their people. They're trying to communicate well. You know, they're trying to bring the bit of their human self and they're not crying at work, but they're bringing a bit of their human self.
Speaker: So and I think that's got a contrast is you know Microsoft used to be the command and control Gates and then Balmer. and Microsoft stock was like flat through i think most of Balmer's time. and Then Satya comes in all about culture, we're going to break down the walls, we're go to work together. He's still tough guy better be smart, you better deliver, we'll have a good strategy. But it was, I'm going to fix the culture and the stock went like that.
Speaker: He made some smart bets on Azure and the like. But he had the team teaming together to drive it, not um not simply, you know, not just genius ideas.
Speaker: um So I think there's a few people get away with it. I don't think the average person or the above average person is going to get away with it. So there's so much talk now about the rise of AI and what this means for the future of work and for leaders and for organizations.
Speaker: Given what we know now, what is your best sense of how this impacts this generous leadership concept? Does it make it that much more important? Does it change it in any way? First off, I actually think it's only the continuation of me saying technology is driving the need for these type of leaders. So, you know, just you know ai just makes it more where there's a machine involved with your work life and you can do things all the time. um And so I actually think it's going to the people that are going to really thrive as leaders are going to be even more so knowing how to engage with the team, understand where they're coming from. and right now we're of a period of change, help them navigate the change. Now I was just reading some of the data, different studies from Gallup and Deloitte and the like, and you have 12% of employees so far think AI is really helping make a difference. So it's not even when you're put into their company and half of them think or 42% that when companies are rolling out AI, they're ignoring the whole people side.
Speaker: So quite frankly, if you want to be an exceptional leader, you would actually embrace just the opposite of that. Okay, how can I as a leader ensure AI is fitting into the people side of this as well as actually delivering real value?
Speaker: And how do I engage with my people to make sure that happens in my team, etc.? So I don't, I think it's only going to accelerate it. And you hear more and more, you know, college, I'm a board chair of a college, you know, like we really, the students that are going to thrive as leaders out there are people who are able to bring the EQ with the understanding of the technology. You have to use the technology who are able to connect with people and lead them through the uncertain times and through a mixture of things doing work, people and computers.
Speaker: So I don't know. I think it's only to accelerate the need for exceptional leadership. What would be your answer for the more doomer take on this of the reason these AI companies are getting so much investment is that there's this implicit promise of being able to replace lots of workers and make it so that companies don't have to hire nearly as many people for things. do you think that's all kind of overblown? This is another technological shift. Do you think there's merit to that? What do what do you think about that?
Speaker: Now, I do think if companies, well, we're already seeing it, you know a lot of companies started with AI and it's going to save all this and save all that. And there's not much data to say it's done it yet, which is probably a flaw in the way they've rolled it out. And it's like anything, there's a gold rush to use it. Then people say, wait a minute, where do we really want to mine for the gold? How do we want to get the gold? What's the most effective way? Where tools do we use when, not just guys shaking, you know,
Speaker: um baskets in the in the creek so i do think that there will be job changes and displacement of course i mean my my brother's in software sales and not even he's older he's just retired out of it now but that just the jobs are going away because the software isn't needed no offense but you know the the machine can do some of that stuff but it's just like everything mean it could be it'll be hard and some people will be displaced quicker than others, you know, the best organizations will figure out how to either retrain them into other roles or they might have to change people.
Speaker: But it's no different than the industrial, you know, from the farm to the industrial age. You know, that was a massive shift. I mean, these things have happened. Now, it's painful when they happen, you know, the 10 or 20 years we go through it.
Speaker: And sometimes there's a World War II to tie with it. So want to get too, you said doom so I can say it. Actually, I think every time there's a World War II. So, you know, we don't want that to happen. um But I do, but I think organization-wise, you know, I'm i'm not a PCG anymore. i left a year and a half ago, but, you know, we really work hard on, okay, if you're going to you try to use this tool, what do you what's the benefit you want to bring with it? What are you trying to do with I mean, it's just like every, i even think when techno it started you know oh let's roll out sap no before there was anything let's roll out this new program well what's the benefit you want to get from that program why are you rolling it out and try you know do a pilot of something that'll make oh it made a difference okay now let's roll it further this tool's 10 times it's rolling up much faster but it's no different where do you want to use it how are you going to use it i'm getting off what kind of your questions both sides but of course people will be affected but it's you know it's not unlike i'll tell you
Speaker: um I had one of those, it was J&J, was a client of mine at one point. And i was talking about how to the head of sales and he's talking about when a new technology, a new tool comes out to help the sales guy, even the the best sales people, whether they were 63 and on the you'd think, oh, old guy. If he was a superstar, he would grab the new technology here she right away. you know It was it nothing to old guy, new guy. The best always look for tools to be better. And the those the rest, you know for whatever reason, we're leery of it. So I thought it was very fascinating. So this is no different. you know The best will grab the tools that actually make themselves even better.
Speaker: And the most fearful will duck. And really what you know the outcome of that isn't going to be so good. Yeah, it's not just the leader. I think as a person you want to, well, I just think of all the change programs I did as part of BCG and, you know, if the programs run well and it's engaging the people and it's communicating, it's really clear on where the direction and what the benefits are.
Speaker: those people, those employees who embraced it usually thrive the best in the change. I mean, it was interesting. Google did a study they call it called Project Oxygen. They looked at 80,000 managers across the company and the highest performing ones.
Speaker: Basically, why what are the people in their teams performing? What what it was it they said? They said, the manager is a great coach. And well how are they great coach? Oh, they actually engaged me and empowered me. gave me opportunities and how they do they ask me questions they listen they ask me questions they listen so you know it's the best people if they feel engaged with by a a generous leader or it just a good damn good manager will stay because they feel empowered and then lo and behold that whole team performs better I'm just kind of obvious but it's surprising how many leaders often
Speaker: are afraid to ask questions and listen and ask questions, listen. You know, either it's fear, they think they have all the answers, they don't want to look like they don't have the answers. So to ask a question, you know, shows a little humbleness and vulnerability they may not be comfortable with.
Speaker: But it's a pretty simple tool to engage your people and to learn what you don't know. Speaking of vulnerability, you have a really powerful personal story in the book. I was listening to the audio book when I was out walking and it literally stopped me in my tracks. If you don't mind sharing it with our listeners, can you tell us the story of your dad and how sharing this with your BCG colleagues really fostered a new level of trust and connection with them?
Speaker: Yeah. So most people I'll give him the punchline first, but my dad, Well, he died, but he was gay. Now, I didn't know it. So we got my mom and he got divorced. Well, they separated. i don't think they got divorced for 30 years, but they separated when I was eight. And I remember my mom just said to me, I said, when are we going? We always spent the summer in in Western Washington on my grandmother's grandparents' ranch, wheat ranch. And and my dad never come, didn't come. I didn't realize what was going on. My mom said, well, we I said, when are we going home to see dad? She goes, we won't be living with your father anymore.
Speaker: And it didn't clue, I didn't get it. I would visit once couple of weeks every year from age eight on. I didn't see what was going on. I lived with him for a year after college. And mean, I'll tell you a funny story. is to be He had a bar in his house. And in the bar, he had a picture painting on the wall. And the painting on the wall was a bar with bar stools and four males naked sitting on the bar stool.
Speaker: It still didn't occur. My dad lived with a guy and he divorced my mom. I still didn't understand my dad was gay. Now, my wife says, well, you did, but you didn't get it. But no, because what do I get? Like, oh, your dad's gay. Well, why are you here? If your dad's gay, how does that work? Did he like my mom? to my mind How did that work? You just all these weird questions go in your mind from age 13 to whenever for a while. Not weird, normal questions. And this is, you know, back in the 70s and 80s, too, or 60s, 70s and 80s.
Speaker: I finally, i guess they knowledged it when my dad, we were living in Australia with BCG and my dad visited and he had all these pills in the bathroom, which, or or maybe isn't in the bedroom. And anyway, I did my wife then noticed and they were AIDS pills. and or HIV pills. And so we confronted him. That's a big word. But my wife said, Oh, do you have AIDS? And we had two young kids. And these were days where you worried a little bit.
Speaker: And he said, Yes, I do. Well, I think then i realized he was gay. But as time went on, i you know, you think more about it, you grow a little wiser and little more comfortable. Also, I think I grew more proud of him that, you know, in the 60s, 70s, 80s, he chose to try to live his lifestyle, which, you know, is hard. It's hard today even. But I was, you know, that was good that he, you know, he tried to be himself, even though and it wasn't easy back then.
Speaker: And then to your point, you know, I started to talk privately about it with friends or whatever. And I thought, you know, i was the head of BCG North America. And we have, as I said, networks. One of them is our pride network, gay, lesbian, et cetera, LGBTQ plus.
Speaker: And i and we we're having a meeting, the annual meeting in Chicago. And i so I said, okay, I think I will tell this group. but just It's not come out because, you know, I'm not pretending I had to come out. It's not that big a deal. But really share this. You know, I think I think i wanted to for my own self, just talk about so publicly. But I also thought, you know, sharing it, i probably didn't, but sharing a bit of vulnerability, maybe I'll connect with this group a little more.
Speaker: But was very tricky because i do't want to go in there and pretend, hey, I know what your life's like because I did a little bit, but not you can't see my fingers if you listen to the radio. But I didn't know really. So I remember I opened up and said, well, you know, I i just wanted to say, you know, I just so tell you a little bit about me. And, you know, I think I know a sliver of what your life is like because my dad was gay.
Speaker: and you could have pin drop. I mean, here's the head of BCG North America of 7000 people. i was white male at that time, 60 years old, 56 years old and like, whoa. And then I thought, gosh, are they going to think I'm just trying to be their friends? But, you know, I just described the story and his background and talked and it was just incredible. It's like the The warmth from the group obviously was because it is a group that's typically kind of warm around those, but also the willingness to share themselves and to thank you, say, thanks for sharing a bit of that. I mean, and you think about it.
Speaker: mean, what did I do with that group? Just sharing that. That's pretty big vulnerability by some people's standards. But, you know, it built trust in those group of people that I could be honest and open, you know, and help them to deepen my relationship with them. Not personally, but, you know, just And, you know, there's a sense of emotional safety for the people you work for. If you can tell a story like that, oh, wow, they could be a little bit more themselves. And, you know, we all talk about how emotional safety is quite important in the workplace nowadays.
Speaker: um Also, I think when you do something like that, um you make space for others to acknowledge their vulnerabilities or even a simple sense and work if they're stuck.
Speaker: And they don't want to admit they're stuck because they're afraid to be. Well, you know, but if you're stuck, you're not getting something done. So that's not productive. If someone can say, hey, boss, I'm stuck. I don't know what to do. Will you help?
Speaker: That's very freeing. And then you more done. so so there's a lot of these benefits, which i mean, that that moment only amplified it all. It made me think about it. But, you know, so.
Speaker: you know that was it was a very powerful moment for me personally inside and actually for me as a leader, because I noticed, wow, just share it. Well, sharing something that major, but sharing your personal self, you create bonds that are very powerful as a leader. Well, thank you for sharing that. Again, so sorry for your loss. And i hope that listeners can see how they can bring a version of this vulnerability into their day-to-day as a leader and how this really does wonders for breaking down these barriers and building this trust and connection with people.
Speaker: I do think this, you know, whether you want to call it humbleness or honesty or humanness or authenticity or vulnerability like Ted Lasso kind of thing, I just think this is very important for a leader. And actually, just to contrast, if you know a leader who thinks, who just looks good, their family looks good, everything's perfect, they're the highest sales guy or the highest revenue generator, you know,
Speaker: Do you really, you don't know how to follow them, right? You think, wait a minute. And you also think, wait, something's gotta be wrong somewhere. So now there's an element of mistrust already developed in your relationship. Can I tell one more story on this one?
Speaker: What Kirby was telling me also during COVID, he's the CEO of United. He wanted to get on the video, same thing, town hall to all his employees and basically say, you know, I don't know when we're going to fly again.
Speaker: i don't know what this means for our business, but we're in it together and i'm going to have to furlough some of you. I got it, but no one's going to get fired and we'll somehow. And his team, though, before he was said, you can't do that. You're the CEO. You have to have the answers. You can't get up there and say you don't know where you're going.
Speaker: And he said to the guy, well, what are you talking about? What do you mean? When am I going to tell him we're going to fly in 93 days? So to him, it was very obvious. But their team thought CEO can't admit he or she doesn't know the direction we're going.
Speaker: But he didn't. He just knew the direction was going to be together with smart moves. And he told everybody that. That's fair. You know, you follow somebody who's authentic like that, you know. It's a great one in that he had to overrule these more small-c conservative compliance-oriented people and make a hard decision here. It's as much more in that true generous leadership, true authenticity than the conflict avoidant, nice kind of leadership.
Speaker: Yeah, either the conflict avoidance or the person that thinks, I'm the boss, I have all the answers. And let me tell you folks, we'll um During COVID, i know what you would say, because anything you'd say, they wouldn't believe, because you do not know. But that's, you know, there are still a lot of leaders that think their job is to have every answer.
Speaker: And that is impossible by definition. Now, you have to, as a leader, set a direction, be confident, and change directions, which is a vulnerability if you're wrong. But but that doesn't mean you have to have all the answers. You still, as a leader, every leader I interviewed,
Speaker: in this book, every single one said they love to ask questions and listen, ask questions and listen. You know, and they told lot of them talked about how they'll walk the halls and go talk to the finance analyst who's doing the work, not the vice president of finance who's presenting the work to them because you get different kind of answers if you do that.
Speaker: So I just think this whole, you call it vulnerability, you call it humbleness, just call exposing a little bit of your own humanity. goes a massive way to, you know, freeing your team and building your relationship with that team such that they want to follow you.
Speaker: You mentioned some organizational change initiatives. What have been some of your biggest lessons learned on making organizational change that really works, that lasts, that sticks?
Speaker: If you're trying to drive a change of the organization, a couple of points I'll go, you know, there's a lot those books on this and BCG has books on it as does McKinsey and Bain and everybody else. But, you know, first off, you have to have clarity as to what you're trying to do, the leadership.
Speaker: And this doesn't just have to be the CEO, but the C-suite. and the team, under of the clarity as to where you're going and the direction you want to and where you want to get to and kind of a sense of the timeline. If you don't do that, the uncertainty and it may be harsh, some of it, but the uncertainty is too much. You also absolutely have to buy in.
Speaker: depending on the, cup you know, the CEO and the C-suite has to believe we're going to drive this change and wants to get there. because The minute they wobble, boom, good luck getting employees. So that's critical. I think another thing that's critical is communicate. We always said this if be communicate, communicate, communicate. i mean, you cannot communicate enough to your team, where you're going, the direction, the timing, if you're trying to drive major change.
Speaker: Then I think another more subtle point that's worth remembering or thinking about if you're you know leadership driving the changes, who are the 20 or
Speaker: influencers in a company and it could be the janitor you know if everybody loves the janitor and he whispers and talks to everyone in the hallway and it managed to influence and move that's a little extreme but you know that it's not just like oh who are the 10 my 10 managers who are the most influential it's this person down here in the call center who really manages to move the whole group just through their charisma their the way they communicate e etc but who are those movers and shakers not moves but those movers in your organization and go find them and get them on side, you know, and or figure out why they don't want to be on side and solve it.
Speaker: That's the last point I'll make is I used to say to my teams, if we were helping drive change, you have to engage the skeptics, go find the neurologists, And, you know, and and then solve their, their, solve their nose. Cause you know, rarely is a noologist a blocker, maybe one out of a thousand is just a painful person who wants to in you need one work. Most of them know something you don't know, and you need to know that to make whatever change you want to make happen. So, you know, engage the skeptics and solve, you know, and cover the nose and then solve them. so That's maybe another trick that lot of people don't think about. They just think about steamrolling as opposed to finding the real problems and solving them.
Speaker: No, that common sense is really coming through. And i think a lot of people might think that somebody from one of the top consulting firms in the world is going to have these super complicated, you know, strategies and frameworks and things. And it's really coming down to some core people skills here that really make the difference.
Speaker: Yeah, well, you know, not to talk about consulting, but for one second, consulting changed for many years ago where at least BCG, McKinsey and Bain, you know, they were strategy firms who created slide decks with brilliant insights and left it to the client said, good luck to you.
Speaker: And, you know, maybe 30 years ago, the client started saying, well, this is great and help me get it done. And, you know, I actually one of my clients when I was like a second year, so it wasn't my client, but I was on the team. The CEO said, now you got to get it done. And my partner said, he said, well, what do you mean we got it done? He said, well, if we knew how to do it, we'd be done already. And he kind of thought, well, we don't do things, but that's what's 30 years. But now the world's changed where The consulting firms actually would rather help you get it done, not make it a pitch.
Speaker: And now you've got to have a good team and all kinds of things to make that happen. But that's, you know, that's what's changed in consulting. So then the practical things do matter. So one of the big things I'm working on with clients is helping them expand their idea of socially impactful work beyond just the traditional social sector. So beyond government and nonprofits and things, even though these are very important and can play a huge role in this and into private sector organizations that have a real purpose drive behind them. I know this will come as no surprise to you, but what do you see as the role of purpose in private sector organizations?
Speaker: the best companies who have been around for 100 years or 200 years have a clear sense of purpose. i mean, I will, you know, I started Procter & Gamble and you know he say, well, why you just make soap? But, you know, we, when I worked there we thought we're going to make things that really change in those days. I'll take the homemakers, the homemaker's life, you know, make it easier or like Crest toothpaste really actually get rid of cavities. We believe that we didn't. It wasn't just oh make some toothpaste, market it brilliantly and make money. now Of course, we're supposed to make money. That's what it is for profit. But the purpose underpin it.
Speaker: And this started with, I wasn't around, but Procter & Gamble 100 years ago, you know, and and that drove in everybody's behavior. i mean, I didn't go in to sell stuff because i wanted to make it I wanted to make the numbers, but I actually believed that Tide was going to clean your clothes better.
Speaker: And that's, now, You could argue maybe, well, there might be camel's of cos and tides, so we could times have changed. But you know, tides are going to clean your clothes better, which is going to make your life easier. You know, or why are you cleaning your clothes if you don't care? You know, or crest is going to get rid of or head shoulders is going to get rid of dandruff, which is really bothering you and causing stress in your blah, blah, blah. So we believe that.
Speaker: And I think of another Johnson and Johnson as a credo. And the shareholder is on the credo, but it's I don't know. It's like it's a credo's seven, inch you know, seven things. It's number six or something. It's not number one.
Speaker: And Johnson Johnson really does truly want improve the health of individuals. I mean, and the credo is created by one of the Johnson people for six generations or maybe four generations ago. And it's been this it's edited slightly over the years, but it's been there for 100 years. So I think that I mean, just think of Delta.
Speaker: You know, it's silly. I fly on Delta a lot, but, you know, take you where you want to go in the world. i mean OK, so whatever. Well, who wants? Well, you want to go somewhere. So Delta's whole role is to get you there safely, effectively and and not in somewhat a pleasant way, being on a little plane.
Speaker: These people, these things infuse the organization. They infuse the organization. And therefore, it makes a lot easier. If we're talking about generous leadership, all this other stuff, engaging, you know helping you know others grow you know within the context of a purpose driven organization is a lot easier.
Speaker: So you know a lot of these companies also try to truly give back in what they're doing. Not all of them. And you know and I don't mean just by having a philanthropic team that gives away 5% of the profits. That's important too, because we need the money. That's not quite the same thing as you know trying to really put your mind power behind making a difference.
Speaker: What is some advice you would give to people who are either currently serving on a nonprofit board or who might be interested in doing so in the future? got to be careful because i could go on too long again. i guess a couple of things to the conversation we just said, you know, you as the board chair and with your president or managing director or whatever it is, you have to make sure there is a clear purpose and reason for being and that it's communicated effectively. so that starts there because otherwise, how why would people give money, which is something you need to umpro you know if they don't believe in the if they don't see the purpose and the goal? Why would people want to work there? That's number one.
Speaker: The other thing I think is as a nonprofit board chair, so it's, you know, working effectively with the leadership team is always important, but probably even more important a nonprofit because here they want your help.
Speaker: You know, sometimes the for profits of CEO picks is they want advice, but they don't want help. In this case, they want help. And that's number two. Number three is it isn't your job to medal, though, as a board chair. And I had to learn this because I came from business. I'm not used to like doing and it really is not my job to do. It's my job to engage, you know blah, blah, blah. So you got to be careful not to do it. Then the one the other thing I'd say, though, which is quite important. now I'm a college board chair. That's a unique place where there's faculty, et cetera.
Speaker: is ensuring you understand and engage with and communicate with the entire constituency of you know of the team, not just the chair, not just the president or whatever, the CEO, or whatever it is, ah the leader of the organization. you know The board doesn't work effectively. You don't have to work with, but doesn't engage effectively with faculty or students or the staff.
Speaker: you the whole thing can go sideways. Now, doesn't mean they have to agree with you. They doesn't mean, but they have to know you, you know? So that's the other thing i think I learned most of us within the context of the president or the leader. Well, you know, you don't want to be going around their back, having a bunch of meetings with all the employees. But I think that that's something i is not pretty important in nonprofit is, you know, having the team feel like, okay, the board has our back, has leaders back. They're actually here contributing because they want to,
Speaker: You know, and sometimes people think the board is there, i mean, for whatever reason, but not because they actually are volunteering to want to be there. That's probably a handful of pieces of advice I'd give. Yeah.
Speaker: What does helping without meddling really look like in practice? Well, it does mean dont not do. So you really aren't supposed to do. So you might be, oh, this thing's broken. I'll just call the faculty chair and say, why don't you do this and that? That is not my job. you know My job is to go to the president and say, listen, I have some. So really helping is counseling, advising, giving suggestions, bringing your expertise, bringing board members in into your expertise to help.
Speaker: the leadership team and or the employees where it's appropriate. That's the and and not try to do not try to micromanage um because you.
Speaker: Yeah. So that's and and the way you might do with the contrast that you might start going around and talking to people. It's like if I just talk so and so we'll get this fixed for you. That ain't your job to fix it. It's your job to the president counsel on how to fix it or the CEO.
Speaker: um That might be that might be the biggest example. But the other part of it, though, is important is, you know, those people on the board usually that have expertise could be really useful.
Speaker: So how do you effectively ensure you connect them with the right people in the organization to lend their expertise, you know and not not do things, but just give the counsel and the advice from you know their experiences. i think people value that, but not if they think you're coming in to do it. Yeah, this is something you see people have a misconception on all the time on what is your role as a nonprofit board member and where can you be most useful?
Speaker: Yeah, most board members, I don't know, they probably come from some management kind of role or you know business kind of role, you know or management kind of role, so they think their job is to do. And now in this context, you're not the manager. you you're know um Yeah, so I think that's, anyway, just think that's the biggest thing you've got to learn. And then maybe, anyway, especially in your first role.
Speaker: So in bringing this home for people of everything in the book, all seven traits, what do you really want listeners to walk away with? Yeah, I think when people ask me this question, of friends, they said, Joe, what what should I do? And I'd say three things.
Speaker: I have seven traits and you've got to do them all. But first off, this whole idea of asking and listening, you know, so engaging with people, asking them questions, thinking about where are they coming from? What's their background within work? What department and what's maybe their life situation as best you can? And then really listening to what they're having to say.
Speaker: and identify where they're saying something that doesn't fit what you think the world is, and then understand why, because you're going to learn. So this whole simple ask and listen, it's very easy. So really be, you know, a generous listener.
Speaker: That's number one. But then i'm going to bounce around. Going with that is this whole thing you've talked about, you and I the authenticity or vulnerability. If you're really gonna ask and listen and say, oh, they know something I don't know, you have to be a little bit humble or vulnerable. Because if you think you have all the answers, you can't by definition do that. So if your vulnerability is nothing more than when you ask a question, deeply listen and say, what do they know I don't know?
Speaker: That's, but you can't, otherwise you just can't really, You can lead, but I don't think you can really grow an organization. Then the third one we didn't talk about, and I say it because it's not hard, is you know this idea I say, you know be generous in the moment, like small acts have big impact. you know Whether it's a simple thing of sending a happy birthday email to your teams to your team on their birthday, it means a lot to somebody, especially if they know they come from you actually caring. Or I'll tell us quick story A friend of BCG once told me she was a manager, but not a partner. She said if her partner and she's on a Friday says, hey, this tell the boss, hey, this weekend, it's a big weekend. My son's going to be in a soccer tournament.
Speaker: That's nice thing. Just simple human thing to say. She said, if my manager or the partner comes back on Monday or Tuesday, so by the way, how'd that soccer tournament go? she is just like she said i will follow them anywhere because think about it it's very simple maybe took 10 seconds to ask and you have to listen to the answer for a minute so it took two minutes of your day and she said they'd remembered they they cared enough about me to remember they cared enough about me to know it was something i cared about and they cared enough to ask and then they listened to how i so what i said she i'll follow them anywhere you know within reason but you know so small acts like that
Speaker: And there can be a lot of them sending an email congratulating people, person on job well done, which, you know, you think, ah, whatever, just an email, but it means a lot to somebody because they can keep it. They can print it if they want. it That's the other thing that's quite easy to do that really goes a long ways to showing you care about your team.
Speaker: And you got to do it when something that matters to them is personal to them, not personal to you. so that's the thing I'd say, listen, you know, listen generously, which really ask questions and listen. Somehow figure out how to bring some of your humanity and your humbleness, your vulnerability to work, whatever's comfortable for you.
Speaker: And then small acts, being big impact that can have huge benefit to you as a leader at any level, any level. Joe, thank you for taking the time to share your immense expertise with our listeners. I hope they really heard what you had to say and can put this idea of generosity into practice in their own leadership.
Speaker: How can people listening learn more about what you're up to, follow along, and pick up a copy of The Generous Leader? But you can get a copy of the book from Amazon, of course, or any of these Barnes and Noble, good whatever you want. It's there. It's actually coming out paperback, so that's exciting for me. um And then if you want to follow along, um actually, I'm pretty good at posting my thinking on LinkedIn.
Speaker: I think most it makes YouTube and that stuff, but then, you know, just different thoughts. So you follow along on LinkedIn also. If you want to connect with me, I will connect. If you leave a LinkedIn message, I don't check it all the time, I'm getting better. Then I'll give you my email and we can, I don't like, LinkedIn is not a way to communicate with, just way to make introductions.
Speaker: Well, Joe, thank you again. It's been a pleasure. Yeah, this was, you know, it was interesting because we, because most people just drill me on the seven traits. This was more of an interesting conversation. not to sound arrogant, with the leader, you know, with a guy who's been there, done that for 30 years.
