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Rajeev Raja on Turning Sound into a Growth Moat
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How do brands grow using the power of sound?
In this episode, Rajeev Raja reveals how BrandMusiq created the sonic identities for Mastercard, 7Up, and dozens of global brands.
Rajeev Raja is the founder of BrandMusiq, Asia's first sonic branding agency that's redefining how brands connect emotionally with consumers through strategic sound design. In this conversation with host Akshay Datt, Rajeev shares his unconventional journey from being National Creative Director at DDB Mudra and a professional jazz flautist to pioneering an entirely new category in India's advertising landscape.
Rajeev breaks down the science and art of sonic branding, from understanding Indian classical Navarasas to leveraging AI for scalable sound production, while revealing the capital-efficient playbook that helped him build a bootstrapped agency serving Fortune 500 clients.
In this episode, you'll learn:
👉How Rajeev Raja built BrandMusiq into Asia's leading sonic branding agency without venture capital funding
👉The difference between jingles and strategic sonic identity systems, and why brands need MOGOs in the audio-first economy
👉Inside BrandMusiq's proprietary MUSE framework that turns brand personality into emotionally resonant sound
👉Why sonic branding delivers 8.5x more effectiveness than visual-only advertising and drives measurable brand trust
👉How AI is transforming music creation for brands while human creativity remains irreplaceable for emotional connection
👉Real-world pricing and business models, from several hundred thousand dollar global deals to startup-friendly licensing options
#AudioMarketing #BrandIdentity #SonicIdentitySystem #AdvertisingIndustry #CreativeEntrepreneurship #AudioFirstBranding #MumbaiStartups #SoundBrandingAgency #FounderStory #PodcastSonicIdentity #AIMusic #MusicBranding #indianadvertising
Disclaimer: The views expressed are those of the speaker, not necessarily the channel
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Transcript
What is a Sonic Identity?
00:00:03
Speaker
and What exactly is a sonic identity? Every brand has a set of colors associated with it font style that they use consistently. So a sonic identity system is the equivalent of a visual identity.
Rajiv Raja's Background in Sonic Branding
00:00:20
Speaker
Rajiv Raja is an ad agency veteran and the founder of Brand Music. Brand Music creates the award-winning sound identities for global brands like Mastercard, PepsiCo, and HDFC Bank.
00:00:37
Speaker
This is a maybe celebration, maybe energy. ah like like It's almost like dance. ah
Comparing Sonic Identity to Visual Identity
00:00:46
Speaker
Exactly. Exactly.
00:00:55
Speaker
Rajiv Raja, you are an advertising veteran. You spent decades in the Indian ad agency ecosystem before starting a sonic identity agency.
00:01:10
Speaker
um I want to understand more about what exactly is a sonic identity, but one quick question. message to my audience who's listening into this podcast.
00:01:22
Speaker
These conversations go deep, they go technical. i am sure you would be left with questions or things that you may or may not have understood. Please feel free to drop comments on things that you wish we had discussed more. We'll try and reply to comments with whatever additional context we can provide.
00:01:38
Speaker
ah So, Rajiv, what exactly is a sonic identity?
00:01:44
Speaker
Oh, wow. that sir that's That's a deep question. But um essentially, you know, I think the easiest way to explain it is every brand has a logo.
00:01:56
Speaker
Every brand has a set of colors associated with it and um font style that they use consistently. And that's called a visual identity system.
00:02:07
Speaker
Right. So a sonic identity system is the equivalent of a visual identity system, but using sound and music.
Examples of Sonic Identities
00:02:17
Speaker
I think that's the simplest way.
00:02:19
Speaker
So just as every brand has a logo, we create a mogo. right, or a musical logo. And that is, again, part of a system.
00:02:31
Speaker
And just as there are colors with brands, we create sonic palettes, right, which resonate with the brand values, etc.
00:02:41
Speaker
So that's, simply put, that's what a sonic identity system is. So what's an example of a brand which has used sonic identity well?
00:02:51
Speaker
you know, but why does a brand need a sonic identity? So Help me understand that with an example. Okay. So let let me explain in an Indian context, right? So ah music and sound has always been part of of India, right? Whether it's Bollywood or how brands have used it, the early jingles that we had we've heard, washing powder, Nirma, Kalbi, Ajabi.
00:03:20
Speaker
for VIP. Hamara Bajaj. Yeah, there have been so many beautiful compositions. But I think the closest that ah brands came to using a sonic identity, I can give you two examples, ah that became a sonic identity. I don't know if that was the purpose when it was created.
00:03:40
Speaker
ah Britannia's ding, ding, ta-ding, right? That's something every Indian ah immediately recognizes. and ah that That has really become a very strong part of the brand.
Jingles vs. Sonic Identities
00:03:54
Speaker
So you could call it a mogo or musical logo as we call it.
00:03:59
Speaker
right and another Another brand that has used sound very well, i think, is ah Titan. And where they took Mozart's original composition and they repurposed it for India.
00:04:15
Speaker
But the reason it worked so well was that it absolutely matched the whole brand, right? The brand values, the brand persona, how Titan wanted to position itself as a global brand with global standards.
00:04:33
Speaker
Yes, coming from India, but the world was what they were talking about, world standards and world call it quality. And therefore, a piece of classical music that gave the, you know, a regal feel of the Mozart composition.
00:04:49
Speaker
Immediately captured it. Raymond, too, has... ah immediately ah captured it raymond so as Again, it was it was a ah composition by Schumann, again, a Western classical composer, which again they have created. and In fact, we did a lot of work for Raymond ah to ah reinterpret the that Schumann piece in the modern context.
00:05:21
Speaker
but So the the Raymond piece goes something like... da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da So that's that's Raymond. ah Again, very evocative, very yes timeless. complete man yeah The complete man. Exactly. exactly So these were you know some early examples of… Of course, you must remember that in those days, the primary medium was your television spot.
00:05:54
Speaker
but right And therefore, these were created just to accompany the the visual, in in a sense, and the brand story or narrative. And of course, because if there were so many television spots coming out, they kept creating different... Like ah ti Titan, I remember, there was very beautiful one for Diwali. or you know So suddenly Indian elements coming into it, but with the same melody.
00:06:22
Speaker
So I think the the germs of sonic identity were there in these brands. And... Today, of course, things have changed and the whole concept of a sonic identity has evolved, which we can talk about more as we go along.
Impact of Sonic Identity on Brand Equity
00:06:40
Speaker
How did the Britannia mogo… link with the brand you said the the the mogo the musical logo should embody or personify the brand how did that happen so i can understand you help me understand how titan wanted to show uh like a more aspirational western kind of a thing and possibly for raymond it was similar aspirational western but for britannia how did it personify their brand Yeah, you know, what just just listen to those those notes.
00:07:12
Speaker
ah First of all, the notes are very simple. Ding, ding, da-ding, right? ah the The instrument that used it, the the was used to create it.
00:07:25
Speaker
i think this was created by the great Louis Banks way back. And he he used a very high-pitched, almost childlike tone.
00:07:38
Speaker
Right. That's why it cuts through everything and it sticks. Right. Now, if you now bring it back back to the brand values, Britannia was always, it is an impulse purchase at the end of it.
00:07:56
Speaker
Right. So it is is a light, fun, very accessible homely family, you know, aiming at kids also, right?
00:08:10
Speaker
So all of that put together, ting, ting, ta-ding, right? Immediately, I think, captures the feeling of the brand, which is why, you know, it has it has lasted for for so many years.
00:08:23
Speaker
Right. So how does the Mogu... oh have a P&L impact for a brand?
00:08:34
Speaker
Oh, that's another amazing question. So, ah you know, i think we we need to shift the parameters of evaluation a little bit when you come to sensorial branding.
00:08:53
Speaker
Right? So, when when you look at P&L, it's literally a ROI in and in another sense.
00:09:06
Speaker
So ah week week we call it ROE. Right. So it's not return on investment only, but it's ah it's a return on emotion.
00:09:19
Speaker
Right. And we believe that if a brand emotionally connects with its target audience, then In the long run, it definitely adds to salience, recognition, equity, and therefore to brand value.
00:09:41
Speaker
And that ultimately leads to the the whole P&L story or ROI. right So that's really it. It's not a direct connection.
00:09:54
Speaker
I create a mogo and my my products are going to fly off the shelf. I don't think ah that's it. I think it's it is really the the whole emotional field of your brand and how you can express it without saying a word.
00:10:09
Speaker
Right?
Creating a Sonic Identity
00:10:10
Speaker
that's That's really the beauty of it. ah What went wrong with Lyril? You know, that Lyril song was iconic, but… i I don't think they even use it today and neither is the brand that memorable today.
00:10:24
Speaker
Right. So ah I think there's a function of many things, right? So a piece of identity or a piece of music or any asset that a brand has will only be as popular as the brand is, right?
00:10:46
Speaker
So, little over time has has dropped in, i mean, not just sales, but I think in salience, in the relevance to our lives.
00:10:59
Speaker
it was It was very popular at a particular time. Great, and I would still call that a jingle. i wouldn't call it a sonic i identity. So, la, la, la, la. la la la la la la la It captured the whole, that freedom, ah liberation for women.
00:11:18
Speaker
ah you know, literally, I think Carol, Karen Lunel was, you know, cavouting under that waterfall and that imagery.
00:11:29
Speaker
So, it was perfect. yeah when It went beautifully with that whole feeling of freshness, freedom. unrestrained expression of that.
00:11:41
Speaker
so But I think as the brand started dipping in popularity, the brand, the product, all of that, therefore, it started you know dropping from our ears. And the exposure that we had to it draw also dropped. And I think that's the that's the reason why we don't hear it today.
00:12:05
Speaker
Okay, okay, okay, understood. um and So what's the difference between, you said Lirel is not a mogo, but it's ah a, sorry, what was the term? It's a jingle, you said. Yes, yes, yes. So what is the difference here? Jingle, mogo? Yeah, so, you know, a jingle in in its classic definition is advertising in words.
00:12:35
Speaker
right Washing powder, nirma. Washing powder, nirma. Do the keys of A.D. Stuff like that. So basically, instead of having a voiceover, you you you actually put it in the medium of music.
00:12:52
Speaker
that makes it more catchy, that has repeatability, people hum along and the brand message just gets sort of into people's minds through through the medium of music, right? Paytm Karo would also be like ah ah Exactly. Now, Paytm Karo again is an interesting interesting transition, right? So, it started off as a jingle where you saw it on television, Paytm Karo, right?
00:13:23
Speaker
But when the wallet's world exploded, it's very important for a wallet to have a mogul, right?
00:13:36
Speaker
Because it's linked to the anxiety the user has of his money being transferred. it's been It's being transferred in the ether, literally.
00:13:50
Speaker
Right? So, how does the the the user get reassurance that, hey, my money has been transferred? Right? Which is why sound is so important to do that.
00:14:02
Speaker
So, I think PTM realized and the whole world has been realizing that sound can play a very important role beyond just brand recognition. But also,
00:14:14
Speaker
in navigation in the digital media in utility for customers, right? So, pay TM, karo became ta-ta-ta-ta-ta, right?
00:14:26
Speaker
The instrumental version which plays on the app when you transfer the money. Receive money, yeah. Right? So, I think too to answer your question, a jingle can be part of a sonic identity system.
00:14:43
Speaker
It can be one expression. of a sonic identity system. A sonic identity system is much more holistic. It represents the media agnostic brand actually. right So it's it's like the the intangible brand, all the values of the brand, the personality, you first create the identity and then you look at its expressions.
00:15:09
Speaker
So coming back to the visual identity analogy, right So you create your entire visual identity manual and then you show, okay, now on my visiting card, this is how it will appear.
00:15:26
Speaker
at the end of my TV spot, this is how the that logo will be animated. But on a billboard or hoarding, this is how it will appear. On a print ad, this is how it will appear.
00:15:38
Speaker
On a flyer or a poster, this is how it will appear. They're clear guidelines, but you don't create it for a poster in the first place, right? You create for the holistic brand. And similarly, ah jingle therefore was created for a particular campaign or for a particular media.
00:16:00
Speaker
But we are saying a sonic identity system has to step back, take back several steps, ah or rather rise above all of that and view the brand from, you know, a bird's eye view and say, look, this is all where and in today's environment, it's become ah especially important because the the media environment has exploded.
Components of a Sonic Identity System
00:16:25
Speaker
but Right. So today it's not just about a television spot. It's about a plethora of places where your brand can be heard and that's opened up the entire sonic identity space.
00:16:38
Speaker
right So it's important to have the big idea of sound and then for your brand and then say, okay, this is how I'll now amplify it. So you gave me examples of visual identity system, like the fonts, the colors, ah how the logo is used in different mediums, like from a print to a television, to a social media, to a visiting card, against different background. Like if it's against the black background, then there would be a separate version of the logo and so on.
00:17:09
Speaker
um Similarly, what are the elements of sonic identity? Yeah, so um I can speak from our experience, from brand music experience of how we built the entire ecosystem.
00:17:26
Speaker
So what we're saying is that ah mogo or musical logo is about three seconds, but it's part of the larger sonic identity system. So we begin with creating a mogoscape, which is the equivalent of your visual palette, right? So it's your sonic palette.
00:17:47
Speaker
It has a clear melodic structure. So, you know, you'll have to tell me as as an outsider, I don't know what's a visual palette. Like maybe a brand manager knows what's a visual palette, but I don't. I'm not from a branding and marketing background. So explain it to me like an outsider.
00:18:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. so ah now, if I were to... look at you, Akshay, right, as a brand, I would try and understand your personality first.
00:18:23
Speaker
right If I went to yeah best friends
00:18:29
Speaker
if i went to your best friends and maybe to your family and say, hey, what kind of guy is Akshay? Is he a happy guy? Would you classify him as maverick?
00:18:41
Speaker
Or would you classify him as ah leader? Or but would you say he makes everybody laugh? I mean, what's his character like? right So, we but try and understand brand's character first. right And therefore, if Akshay, you were to describe the kind of emotions that Akshay evokes in you.
00:19:07
Speaker
Does he evoke respect and admiration? Or does he evoke ah humor? Or does does he evoke a sense of belonging and caring?
00:19:20
Speaker
and What emotion does he... So what's your character and what kind of emotion do you evoke? right These are the two critical components of creating the sonic identity or the palette, as we as we call it.
00:19:35
Speaker
right So, ah now, just as if you had exactly the similar brief, you could say, okay, Akshay is an optimistic character who always brings sunshine into people's lives.
00:19:51
Speaker
Say that, right? Now, ah if you were a visual designer, you would say, hey, then why don't we use the but color yellow? Yellow is the color of optimism and as your primary color.
00:20:03
Speaker
There may be other secondary colors associated with Now, similarly, we would say, hey, look, ah maybe we should be looking more at a major scale.
00:20:16
Speaker
ah Because major scale ah actually makes you feel happy. right and so this skill is A is a musical term? like like Yeah, it's a musical term.
00:20:28
Speaker
ah So I can i can ah play a little and just demonstrate this for you. yeah Sure, sure. Yeah. So... ah Doe, a deer, a female deer.
00:20:40
Speaker
Ray, a drop of golden sun. It's constructed from the major scale. okay so they okay there are different So the major scale makes you feel happy. a minor scale makes you feel a little melancholy, more bluesy.
00:20:56
Speaker
So the whole genre of blues... actually uses a lot of the minor scale. Right? So, we know, along with our complex system of Indian ragas,
00:21:10
Speaker
The ragas have all been classified, which is why our Indian classical music has morning ragas, afternoon ragas, evening ragas, right? They've all been classified, saying this combination of notes, essentially that's what a scale is.
00:21:24
Speaker
It's a combination of musical notes, different permutations and combinations, right? So this combination of notes is likely to make you feel happy. This combination of notes is likely to make you feel reflective.
00:21:39
Speaker
These combinations of notes is likely to make you feel ecstatic, euphoric, excited, so on and so forth. Now, depending on where your brand is, what what the personality and the emotions that your brand wishes to evoke, this is a clear segue into how we will create the sonic palette.
00:22:01
Speaker
Right. So that's just ah but a glimpse. so Okay. So Sonic Palette is one element of Sonic Palette. Which we call the Mogo Scape. Okay.
00:22:13
Speaker
Right. So the Mogo Scape is like your master sound for the brand. Now within the Mogo Scape is a Mogo, which is, you know, if you listen to a piece of music,
00:22:28
Speaker
you will automatically see in the construction of any piece of music that there will be hook.
00:22:39
Speaker
very Very often that's it's called the chorus. right So there will be a hook, a refrain that you will very easily catch on to and sing back.
00:22:55
Speaker
right So the Mogo then becomes that hook or refrain within the Mogo scape. And of course, in today's digital age, we also need a mini Mogo, which is under 1.5 seconds for use for alerts, notifications, transaction approval, so on and so forth.
Emotional Mapping and Musical Elements
00:23:18
Speaker
So this is this is really the thus the system, the Mogo scape, the Mogo, the mini Mogo. Okay, got it. um How do you decide, like how do you marry brand with the musical note that ah is best suited for the brand? Is it art? Is it science?
00:23:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's a bit of both actually. So ah if you look at the the science part of it, I think it's ah it's really understanding the science of sound.
00:23:55
Speaker
understanding how different musical scales or ragas can affect different emotions, understanding the importance of tone, tamba, and tempo, right?
00:24:13
Speaker
ah So, for example, if I play, you know, something on the flute, right,
00:24:29
Speaker
Right? Now I play this on the flute. But I play it, I sing it now. Exactly the same notes.
00:24:39
Speaker
But very different, emotional. But the timbre is different. Right. So the timbre is different and therefore you are getting a slightly different emotional reaction or response to it.
00:24:53
Speaker
Right? So there's lot of study we've done ah in these different elements. Now, tempo, right? if i If I take the same piece that I just played now and I i do it,
00:25:08
Speaker
but da da da da da da right? You get a certain emotional sort of feel. But if I take it and I just raise the tempo,
00:25:21
Speaker
And use exactly the same notes and do... but but da da da um Right? Right. There, you've moved. You've moved from reflection and ah nostalgia maybe to suddenly to happiness and joy.
00:25:39
Speaker
Celebration, yeah. Yeah, celebration. So, how does tempo affect? And tone is... don't do it You know, is it... Is it...
00:25:52
Speaker
Or is it... Or is it...
00:26:00
Speaker
It's all the same note. Right. But there are different pitches, right? So, again, how does the pitch of a piece of music composition impact you?
00:26:11
Speaker
So, all of this put together is the science. But the art comes in When you take the creative leap, like in all creative processes, you have to take a leap where you have forget about the science, right? And you have now compose from your heart.
00:26:35
Speaker
You know, this is the corridor that I need to operate in. That's the science. But within that corridor, how do I make that corridor resonant, make that corridor really come alive with a musical composition that, you know, everybody immediately connects to.
00:26:55
Speaker
So that's really the science and the art. Okay. ah Give me some more examples of ah the link between emotions and music. Like what kind of music evokes what kind of emotions? Like if you wanted to demonstrate reliability, what kind of sounds would come into that? Or if you wanted to demonstrate celebration, what kind of sounds would you use for that?
00:27:22
Speaker
Absolutely. So... You know, I spoke of the personification of of brands, if they were human beings and the kind of emotions that, right?
00:27:35
Speaker
So, a very, say, heroic brand, a brand that says, hey, listen, I'm coming here to liberate you from The forces of darkness.
00:27:47
Speaker
Like say, there's a cleaning product called Mr. Muscle, I think. That would be a good example. Absolutely. this Right? yeah So if it's a hero brand, then we are saying, you know, a hero, what does a hero sound like?
00:28:00
Speaker
He has to sound heroic, right? He has sound courageous. And for that, we have actually studied the whole history of of music in entertainment media.
00:28:12
Speaker
right If you take Hollywood, you take Bollywood, when the hero comes on, what kind of sound would you hear? You'd hear... um but but um um but but but but right So that's a shorthand for all our collective unconscious. right You immediately hear, oh man, something's happening, something majestic, the hero is coming. right So if you study that, that's a shorthand across cultures.
00:28:38
Speaker
So, they will use big horns, they will use big drums, they they will use, you know, strings, with soaring strings and like a...
00:28:49
Speaker
huge drum roll, right? So that's immediate shorthand for a hero. But on the other hand, if if it's a brand that has ah character of caring, right, maybe a ah brand that deals with mother and child, for example, and it's all about caring and innocence and all of that, now you're not looking at those big drums. You're not looking at those big horns.
00:29:19
Speaker
You're looking at maybe a ah mother just singing a little lullaby, right? Or gentler sounds, just the plucking of a guitar or a little piano just playing in the background, maybe the flute, right?
00:29:36
Speaker
So like this, we have mapped all the possible character combinations, all the the possible emotions, which is actually again coming back to our Indian ah concept of Navarasas, right, which and really is about bringing any artistic expression alive by evoking certain emotional responses from the audience.
00:30:03
Speaker
And there is a whole science to that, which of course is evoked by the art of the the expression, right. So, that's some of some of the things that we do to actually What's a Navarasa?
00:30:22
Speaker
So, ah well, I think around 5,000 years ago, possibly even more than that, Indian scriptures have the concept of Navarasa.
00:30:34
Speaker
Now, Navarasa essentially are a palette of emotions that any artist... wishes to evoke in the audience.
00:30:46
Speaker
right So, now the Sanskrit words are very beautiful. So, it could be hasya.
00:30:57
Speaker
Is it laughter and happiness? Of course, there's a continuum of that. Is it laughter, happiness, joy, optimism? you know That you want the audience to experience.
00:31:11
Speaker
Now, depending on your art form, you will do it in different ways. A Kadagalli dancer actually does it, or a Bharatanatyam dancer does it with a combination of the eyes.
00:31:27
Speaker
They are actually taught how to express emotions only through the eyes. Right? Up to... They say a thousand emotions.
00:31:38
Speaker
The subtleties of emotions can be... But also through the hand gestures, e etc. Now, and in music, these Nava Rasas, okay? Nava as in nine. Nine Rasas as in the essence, really.
00:31:55
Speaker
The juice of the emotion, right? So they could they could range from laughter to peace of mind, to wonder or surprise, ah to veera, which is Sanskrit for courage.
00:32:16
Speaker
Right? So, then there could be anger, could be an emotion. Right? There is an emotion of of repulsion or disgust, which ah in artistic terms could for brands could also be divine discontent.
00:32:35
Speaker
Right? You're never satisfied with status quo. Steve Jobs is a great example. You've never was satisfied with what he did. He kept... Right? So, where are you on this spectrum of Navarasas?
00:32:48
Speaker
And how do you, therefore, want your audience to feel when they hear your sonic identity? Right? can Can you play some examples of Navarasas?
00:33:01
Speaker
Yeah, so ah
00:33:07
Speaker
let's look at corona, which is caring. Right? So...
00:33:22
Speaker
Right?
00:33:36
Speaker
right that's Yeah, I hear empathy. yeah Exactly. yeah so the The first word which comes to mind is that. yeah Correct. So, yeah, so then let me use you as the the recipient, right?
00:33:52
Speaker
ah What will this make you feel, right?
00:34:16
Speaker
um ah It reminds me of Lord of the Rings, you know, like the start of an adventure, optimism. Exactly.
00:34:26
Speaker
Right? On the other other hand, I can also do... um
00:34:49
Speaker
This is a maybe celebration, maybe energy. ah like like It's almost like dance. da Exactly. So this is just just an example.
00:35:04
Speaker
right Now, I spoke of this could be the germ. Now, if you are saying ah the the idea is optimism,
00:35:16
Speaker
Right. And ah i'm I'm sitting in the studio with my music directors and we're saying, hey, this brand is all about cheerfulness and optimism and right.
00:35:28
Speaker
But it's not frivolous. there There is also a sense of purpose. There is a gravitas coming in, coming to it. Now, what I played and you said it sounded like Lord of the Rings.
00:35:42
Speaker
Now that's capturing it perfectly because Lord of the Rings is not just about frivolous, light optimism. There is optimism, but there's a sense of purpose. There's a sense of discovery, going towards some a goal, you know, all of that.
00:35:59
Speaker
Now, if if this becomes the germ of that idea...
00:36:11
Speaker
yeah Right. Suppose we get this idea then say, hey, but you know, it's sounding a bit too soft on the flute, for example.
00:36:22
Speaker
Right. It's optimistic, but it's also a big scale brand. Let's stick with Lord of the Rings. Okay. Yeah, grand. So can we do this with horns, the same melody?
00:36:35
Speaker
Like... bla up but ah ah but bla but but but boom bla but but ah bla bla bla but bla Right. yeah Now we're starting oh we're getting closer to the brand. We're getting closer to the brand values. We're getting closer to you know where the brand is.
00:36:55
Speaker
And that's how the Navarasas actually start getting... of So it's it's the beginning, it's the idea, it's the glimpse that you have and then how you build on it, adding the different layers of certain sonic truths but ensuring that brand truths are also built in.
AI and the Future of Sonic Branding
00:37:18
Speaker
So it doesn't become generic, right? Right. It's not generic, but meaning if it's generic, then it's a piece of music that anybody could use.
00:37:31
Speaker
But how does it become specific to your brand? And that's only when you filter in the brand personality, the brand ethos, the kind of emotions the brand wishes to evoke, etc.
00:37:46
Speaker
um Any advice for a podcast? Yes.
00:37:53
Speaker
I'm trying to get some free advice here. But say a podcast which is on understanding business. what What kind of ah oh music or sonic identity should it aspire to?
00:38:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think it it should reflect the the personality of the podcaster. Right? And ah if you're actually designing...
00:38:22
Speaker
Background music to it, it should it should reflect the the different moments in the in the podcast.
00:38:35
Speaker
there There are different emotions happening in the product podcast. There will be lighter moments. There will be more serious moments. Can the music sort of mirror that? Can it have some semblance of the identity or mogul that's very subtly put in?
00:38:52
Speaker
And most importantly, can it be subliminal where people are not, they're not coming to your podcast to listen to the music. yeah Yeah. Coming to the podcast to listen to the conversation, right?
00:39:06
Speaker
So it shouldn't interfere with the conversation. It should enhance the conversation. and And I guess, you know, I still remember a few podcast intro music. Like like typically, but the intro music is what most people will notice. The the background music during conversation generally doesn't register.
00:39:27
Speaker
Yes, it doesn't. doesn't Yeah, yeah. yeah but But the intro music does register. Absolutely. Just bookending it, you know. Beginning, end. Yeah. Just sign it off with a very clear mogul that is not just random, but reflects in three seconds what your personality is, what the tone of the podcast is.
00:39:50
Speaker
can you ah Can you play something which would be a good mogul for this podcast? That'll be a tough one. you You take a minute or two and like I'm just saying and all i throwing out ideas. like Rather than play something, i I'll tell you... ah What I feel, right, i having been part of this podcast, I feel that it's it's very ah informal.
00:40:17
Speaker
It's not light. um It's also got a ah certain IQ quotient, right? The questions asked, ah etc.
00:40:31
Speaker
make Make one think. So, it's I would say it's thought-provoking. And ah therefore, I would look at creating a sound that's a mixture of mind and heart in some sense.
00:40:50
Speaker
Why heart? Mind, I understand because it's an intellectual discussion. heart because of the informality, because of the fun, because because of the light lightheartedness of the whole ah vibe, you know.
00:41:05
Speaker
it's not so It's not like a really serious business podcast. You know what i mean? There is there is laughter. that is There is a very cool vibe.
00:41:18
Speaker
But at the same time, there is gravitas. right So, these are the two sort of ah juxtaposing elements that we would play with.
00:41:29
Speaker
ah Give it a shot, no? Just play play something which you think could be an interesting approach. I'm not saying that I will use or I want to actually, but I just want to experience your process. It's fascinating for me to experience the process of how these things are created.
00:41:46
Speaker
Let me see. Let me see.
00:41:52
Speaker
Let me see where I can go.
00:42:00
Speaker
so um
00:42:04
Speaker
One second.
00:42:19
Speaker
Right? So now just...
00:42:24
Speaker
That gives me a lightness. Right? But now I want to bring in the gravitas. So...
00:42:34
Speaker
I ended up with that and that brings in a little, you know, and it's the use of that note actually. so
00:42:45
Speaker
And what would be the correct instrument to use? ah I don't think it'll be the flute. ah Possibly but electric piano.
00:42:58
Speaker
piano but more and more an electric piano Okay. which Which gets the best of both worlds in in terms of of it's its light.
00:43:13
Speaker
At the same time, it can reflect a bit of technology and future forward. Okay. Fascinating. Amazing. Yeah, I really enjoyed seeing the kitchen. Okay. oh How does AI change this game?
00:43:32
Speaker
ah I'm thinking that maybe ah brand manager and might just be able to use an AI tool and give it prompts and generate custom sonic identity or at the very least a MoGo.
00:43:47
Speaker
ah Do you see that happening? Like ha does AI make you less needed or does it make you more needed? Yeah. So I think it's, it's all about how you use AI, right?
00:44:01
Speaker
Now, uh, The truth is that, yes, it is going AI is going to democratize a lot of this.
00:44:11
Speaker
But there will always be a need for the you know for human emotion and human imperfection.
00:44:23
Speaker
So AI can make it sound really good, but perhaps too good. And it loses a ah bit of that emotion, e B, music and ai right?
00:44:39
Speaker
ah What we call the B2C area of music, I think has rapidly advanced. And ah still, I think it will level out.
00:44:56
Speaker
Because, you know, the beauty of hearing... ah An unfiltered, raw voice, which is communicating real emotion.
00:45:08
Speaker
i think that's very hard to replicate. I'm i'm on always on the AI, of you know, all the apps because that's my job.
00:45:19
Speaker
And ah I find that, yes, it's fun. you can You can create a lot of stuff. You suddenly, okay, for your wife's birthday, let let's put some lyrics together and you can get a great song, right?
00:45:34
Speaker
But will it will it, yeah, will it really replace? No, but it's going to shake up a lot of things. And for us, I think the opportunity is really to scale at the speed of sound by using AI, right?
00:45:53
Speaker
So that we Are you currently able to use AI to create moguls? Like, can you, for example, you said, okay, we should use an electric piano. Can you use an AI tool and play a flute to the two tool and say that I want this played back to me through an electric. yeah there There are some interfaces where you can use the voice and then convert it into any instrument you want.
00:46:13
Speaker
Yeah, okay. But the thing is, i would say it's still rudimentary at its rudimentary stages, right? ah yeah AI finds it very hard to, very difficult to create a three-second piece of music, for example.
00:46:28
Speaker
It can create a 30-second piece of music. To create three-second music with certain parameters, etc., they's I think there's still long way to go for that to happen.
00:46:40
Speaker
But the way every second day we are hearing things are happening and every... Like if you're on that feed, every second day there's some new discovery, some new... So it's a matter of time, right? Right.
00:46:56
Speaker
And hopefully we would have done, yeah we are already going to, we are in the process of creating our AI platform, AI-led platform ah for for brands.
00:47:08
Speaker
And this, of course, will be high touch to low touch is the whole journey. So from the current high touch We'd probably move to a hybrid of mid-touch and then ah move to low-touch.
00:47:30
Speaker
But that could also depend on the kind of application, the kind of depth the client wants to get into, etc., where the white glove service still exists, but you know for a certain kind of client. And yeah the democratization also can happen through AI.
Ownership and Custom Music in Branding
00:47:49
Speaker
So, this is it's where it's going. It's it's it's very exciting. Very exciting space. Does AI understand how to convert emotions into sound? Or do you need to prompt it? like you know I'm trying to understand the nature of the prompt. If I say that I want a 15-second jingle which...
00:48:14
Speaker
gives an impression of for optimism and reliability. Is that how you prompt it? Or you say, um want a 15 second jingle, use ah this kind of beat and use this kind of note and use this kind of instrument.
00:48:26
Speaker
Like which of these two is ah AI capable of? Well, it it all depends on the prompter. Hmm. Right. So, which is why prompt engineers today is ah is a thing.
00:48:41
Speaker
Right. Now, ah depending on your level of musical knowledge, you could go as technical as you want to or not.
00:48:52
Speaker
right? So the the first example you gave, give me a piece of music that ah gives a feeling of trust and reliability.
00:49:03
Speaker
Then the AI is looking around and yes, it will find something. But maybe you want to get a little more granular and you say, give me a piece of music using trust and reliability, using a combination of of horns and electric piano, right? that's That's also possible. AI will find it, right?
00:49:25
Speaker
But what we are saying is when we listen to it, there's always that, you can't put your finger on it, but there's something lacking, A. yeah B, today the the consumer is getting quite savvy and therefore also brands.
00:49:45
Speaker
where, hey, this sounds like AI. ah yeah and so Okay. So, I think there's some ways to go and yes, there's going to be there's going to be disruption. There's no doubt about it.
00:50:02
Speaker
But which side of the disruption are you going to be will depend on how well you you make AI your ally. And then use human ingenuity to create something that, you know, 1 plus 1 is equal to 11 kind of thing.
00:50:20
Speaker
Hmm. ah This AI platform you arere creating, so what is that? It like ah allow brand manager to share some attributes and then get as an output?
00:50:33
Speaker
No, it's it's not just that. it's ah ah Essentially, there are so many requirements that a brand has in terms of sonic.
00:50:45
Speaker
If you look at the entire marketing chain, right ah We are now analyzing each step of this marketing chain and seeing how the platform can create that depending on what your need is. right So there could just be a need for storage.
00:51:09
Speaker
Sonic assets today are not stored. Anywhere. Nobody knows where that jingle that you created 30 years ago, where is it?
00:51:21
Speaker
Where is the MP3? Where are the stems, which is the breakdown of the piece of music? Right? But now you can store everything in the cloud. You cannot just store everything in the cloud. You can yeah can be meta-tagged.
00:51:39
Speaker
right So using AI, you can actually figure out, oh, this piece of music is evoking this kind of feeling and it's in this zone, while this kind of music is evoking this kind of zone. So therefore, you can prompt and say, hey, I'm looking for this kind of...
00:52:00
Speaker
So whether it serves as a final function or is just a reference for you, you know that that can be done. And then as it gets more complicated, ah it could be used to scale.
00:52:15
Speaker
Basically, how do you use it for your social media? Today's social media, um most brands are unaware or a little wary of using stock music because you don't know who the license really belongs to ultimately at the source.
00:52:42
Speaker
So there have been ah examples of brands getting sued for millions of dollars by the music majors and saying, hey, you've been using our stock music happily.
00:52:57
Speaker
But it belongs to our label, right? And the brand says, I didn't know that. I'm assuming brands will be purchasing this from a platform, like say for images, you have Getty images. Yes, but the thing is music licensing is not so transparent, right?
00:53:13
Speaker
Okay. you will You will assume that this person holds the entire license, but licensing is very, very complicated. but There are many slices of it. like There are many slices. the The producer has a bit of the license. The composer has a bit of the license. The lyrics writer has a bit of the license. I mean, it's it's really complicated.
00:53:32
Speaker
So, you really don't know. Now, wouldn't it be wonderful if you could have your own music, which is on brand, with your MoCo integrated, but which can be scaled up for thousands of pieces of you know, social media reels, all of that, Insta, etc., etc. Right.
00:53:57
Speaker
right So ah typically for your clients, you would also create like background music for reels and different kinds of reels, different kinds of background music. Yes. they excel yes ah the The ending tune for the reel, like but when it ends. or Absolutely.
00:54:12
Speaker
Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Okay. so Fascinating. So that brings me to another, you know, aspect that we haven't spoken about is once you create the sonic identity, what do you do with it?
00:54:26
Speaker
Right? So creating a sonic identity is only the first step of the journey.
00:54:36
Speaker
After that, We go through an exercise we call earpoint mapping. Right? So where all can your brand be heard?
00:54:49
Speaker
So if you follow the consumer and say she wakes up at 6 in the morning and maybe she hears you on the radio. Then at 8 o'clock, her father-in-law puts on the news on television and maybe she hears you there.
00:55:13
Speaker
And then she goes on to your app and she interacts with the app and then maybe she hears you there. Then when she has some free time, later in the day, she's scrolling through her reels and maybe she hears you there.
00:55:31
Speaker
Maybe she goes onto YouTube, that that whole ecosystem. Then she goes out in the evening, ah for a concert and maybe she hears you there or an employee event. Maybe she's an employee of your company. She comes to the employee event and she hears you there.
00:55:53
Speaker
So basically you you you follow the customer wherever she goes. by earpoint mapping, and then you say, this is how my Mogo will travel, and my sonic field or Mogo scape will but serve as a background.
00:56:08
Speaker
So it's a whole strategy that's worked out so that you can, at some point, you can start calculating the number of impressions, the number of times you were heard, what is called OTH, what we call OTH, which is opportunity to hear.
00:56:27
Speaker
Yeah, okay. Right? So it's not just OTS, which was the earlier jargon, which was opportunity to see. So we're saying, what are the various opportunities for your brand to be heard?
00:56:40
Speaker
And therefore, then you create a whole strategic way of media planning, literally, to make your surround sound, follow the customer wherever she goes.
00:56:55
Speaker
So... What does this cost for a brand who wants to invest in this? Like, what would your services cost a brand? that that's ah That's a loaded question. but I can't share exact details. But but modelling ballpar numbers like ah Well, you know, for global brands, it's... Let me put it this way.
00:57:18
Speaker
It does get expensive because it ist not a this is not just something that you can license for a year. Though that that we do have some ah models like that for those who can't, you know, startups, for example, they they can't immediately afford a higher cost. So do you want to license it over five years? do you want to license it over three years?
00:57:43
Speaker
kind of So you you're not... ah
00:57:49
Speaker
you're not producing music for them and therefore they own the music IP. You're saying the IP is yours and you license it out to them. No, that's one model. Okay. That's one model.
00:58:00
Speaker
But most big brands... right The IP will be theirs, right? like Yeah. Most big brands, look, they don't want the hassle of renewing the license every year and renegotiation, if at all.
00:58:14
Speaker
and They don't want all that hassle because, you know, they just want to buy it out. So when we created the sound of MasterCard globally, it's it's a perpetuity buyout, right?
00:58:27
Speaker
it's all So all the big brands, they just say, hey, man, this is a one-time fee and we own all the rights to it, including the rights of recreation and all of that. Hmm. So, that's generally the model. How much was the Mastercard deal worth?
00:58:42
Speaker
That I can't say, but I can't give you exact figures. But ah suffice to say that it's several hundred thousand dollars, right? So, for for big for big global brands. and Yeah, that gives me a ballpark idea, sure. Yeah, yeah.
00:58:57
Speaker
So, ah but I would say that it's It's only fair that we do look at a company size and its its revenue and therefore price it, you know, reasonably so that ah it works.
00:59:21
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and At ah what stage should a founder start thinking of a sonic identity? Like, you know, at a very early stage, maybe you don't need to think about it too much when you are just, for example, say running Facebook ads, Instagram ads at that stage, should you start thinking of it or, you know, like any advice around that?
00:59:44
Speaker
I think the earlier, the better, honestly. ah Because ah sonic identity does take time to register, right?
00:59:56
Speaker
Just as your logo also takes it takes a little time, right? Branding ah ist is not something that's overnight. which Which again is brings me back to that jingle versus sonic identity.
01:00:10
Speaker
A jingle could, like, a good jingle could immediately connect, but it may not reflect yeah your larger brand. You know, it may reflect more the campaign theme.
01:00:22
Speaker
But it could connect. And therefore, it's also short-lived, right? But if you're... It's like are you creating a piece of music that Bach can...
01:00:35
Speaker
Mozart, etc. have written or are you creating a pop hit that that is here today, gone tomorrow?
Future of Sonic Branding
01:00:43
Speaker
So, I think... I mean, for a brand, they also have an option to license existing music, right? For their, let's say, deals. Yes, they do. They do. So, but like, should a brand look at that or should a brand look at custom music?
01:01:01
Speaker
See, it's all about owning it, right? when When do you own it? You can never own... Licensed piece. ah my Michael Jackson's thriller.
01:01:14
Speaker
ah Right. You know, you you can never own it. you It will always evoke memories of Michael Jackson first rather than your brand.
01:01:28
Speaker
Right? How can you own it? You can only own it when you create your own piece of music. Which brings us to the whole neuroscience of music and memory.
01:01:41
Speaker
Right? So, you know, we all go back suddenly. For me, for example, if I hear the the first strains of Beatles, Here Comes the Sun, ah I can vividly remember the first time I heard it.
01:01:56
Speaker
but When I was four or five years old, i was and my mom was telling me to you know go for a bath, and I was pleading with her, no, no, no, after this song, after this song. so So, music and memory is linked. Now,
01:02:12
Speaker
But this will always remind me of the Beatles. Right? But if it were a brand's music and I was associating it with a wonderful memory that I had, I'm reminded of the brand every time I think of it. Right?
01:02:28
Speaker
So every time the Mogo plays, if I can create associations... brand associations, where the brand world is unblocked. And it's crazy, you know, it can be so vivid that an entire brand world can open up in front of your eyes without any visuals being there.
01:02:50
Speaker
That's the part of the mogo. We say a mogo is a… Like the Cadbury, correlation of that Cadbury with celebration. and Correct. yeah Exactly. So, we say a mogo is the shortest distance between a brand and a consumer's heart.
01:03:05
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I get it. so So that's that's the power. And i mean we definitely advocate. In the West, there is still lot of what is called sync licensing, where they go to labels and they get pieces of music and then they stick it on ah in the advertising.
01:03:27
Speaker
But honestly, I've never been an advocate of that. And ah in India, I think there's amazing talent. So we have history of fantastic pieces of music associated with brands.
01:03:40
Speaker
I think this is just 2.0. Yeah, two point like Zakir Hussain for Taj. Yeah, exactly. That was pretty iconic as well. Exactly, exactly. So it's just Sonic Branding 2.0 now.
01:03:53
Speaker
And it's very soon going to be 3.0 with AI. Thank you so much for your time, Rajiv. I really enjoyed this chat. Thank you. Thank you. I think it's been a fantastic chat. And I've never played so much flute on demand on the spot.
01:04:11
Speaker
I guess when you're thrown into the deep end, you got to swim. yeah, yeah. I wanted this episode to have a sonic id identity. So very I made you play the flute.
01:04:25
Speaker
Awesome. All right. Thank you, Rajiv. Great, great.