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Why I left the UK, with Calvin Robinson
1.7k Plays2 days ago
There is a feeling of pessimism in the UK at present, and it seems to be getting worse each day under the Starmer regime. A sense that the country has forgotten who it is. A feeling of helplessness that things are getting worse. And a rage that leaders on both sides of politics just don’t seem to care.
Calvin Robinson has, sadly, said enough is enough. With a heavy heart the popular priest and broadcaster moved from his home in England to the US earlier this month. In this conversation with Will, he explains why.
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Transcript
00:00:19
Speaker
G'day and welcome to Fire at Will, a safe space for dangerous conversations. I'm Will Kingston. If for some reason you are not already following the show on a streaming service, you can find us everywhere from Spotify to Apple Podcasts to YouTube. If you like what you hear here, please consider giving us a glowing five star review. If you don't like what you hear here, please forget I said anything.
00:00:46
Speaker
As an Australian living in the United Kingdom, I'm used to being asked, what on earth are you doing here? Until recently, the tone was always in jest. Don't you miss the weather, or the beaches, or the cold beer back at home.
00:01:01
Speaker
Sadly, the question has been put to me more earnestly of late. There is a pessimism in the UK that has only deepened since the arrival of the Starma regime, a sense that the country has forgotten who it is, a feeling of helplessness that things are getting worse, and a rage that leaders on both sides of politics just don't seem to care. Calvin Robinson has sadly said enough is enough.
00:01:27
Speaker
With a heavy heart, the popular priest and broadcaster moved from his home in England to the US earlier this month. Calvin, welcome to Fire at Will. Thank you. Well, I love the name, by the way, a space for dangerous conversations. It does feel like conversations can be dangerous these days, doesn't it? Well, they're getting more and more dangerous in the yeah UK, I suppose, by the minute where thought crimes are ah suddenly something that you need to be worried about. And that probably ties into the first question, and it is the obvious first question.
00:01:59
Speaker
Why did you decide to leave? Well firstly it wasn't a decision, it was a calling, so I've been called to a parish out here, a full-time parish ministry, and I'm thankful and blessed for that ministry. But I suppose the decision of when to leave was is exacerbated by Keir Starmer and his stormtroopers, and the socialists have gained a grip on the United Kingdom, and it doesn't seem like people are willing and ready to fight back. It seems like there's a lot of apathy. What used to be a Christian nation feels like it's being infiltrated by liberals on the one hand who want to destroy our way of life, and Mohammedans on the other hand who want to take over. And so we have a country where, I mean, you you just mentioned this this thought crime. It does feel like there's thought police, but also
00:02:43
Speaker
We have a lack of freedom of speech, a lack of freedom of expression, a lack of freedom of worship, a lack of freedom of association, to um to one degree, but not on the other. We have this two-tiered system where Muhammadans are encouraged and supported and favoured and Christians and and native Brits are discriminated against and persecuted. And yes, we we are set we we are told we will be persecuted for our faith, but it feels like in the UK, at least People have given up. they really doest i don't know I know not everyone else. I know there are people out there that care, and there are fewer people out there that are fighting back. But in general, it feels like there's a great apathy that's taken over the nation. And it's sad. It's sad to see.
00:03:22
Speaker
That's a wide reaching diagnosis and we'll get to a few of those different strands at the moment, but that point around the apathy of many British people is interesting. Do you do you put that down to a lack of understanding of some of the problems you just raised or do you put it down to an acceptance of that and perhaps this feeling of futility that they can't do anything about it? No, I think.
00:03:46
Speaker
You know, whenever I've had visitors come over to visit my church in London from abroad, they've said things like, it feels like there's a malaise over in there. And I completely get it because when you're in it, it's hard to see, but I travel a lot. And every time I come back to and to to England or to London, I feel, I feel it, I see it. And it is particularly the cities, the large cities. Once you get out of them into the country, you do see more of all England, but it feels like England is being gradually eroded around us. and I don't want to get into conspiracy theories and stuff, but I mean, the UN have published the their documents on on replacement. It feels like there's a general replacement, not just of people, but of values and of culture and things that we knew and loved not too long ago are being rapidly replaced. I feel it's a shame, but as to your question of why is there apathy? and
00:04:35
Speaker
why are people sitting? But I think we've been taught for so long that to be good or to be nice is to be liberal progressive and to be accepting of all cultures, all ideas, all peoples, all values. um it is that We often hear things like, you know well, they're not hurting anybody, or whatever happens in the four worlds of your own home is you know this idea that anyone should be able to do whatever they like.
00:04:58
Speaker
And that's meant that we've eroded our standards, we've lowered our expectations, we've removed etiquette and civility and chivalry and replaced them with anything anything goes. So whether that means small things like on the tube people shouting down their phones on speakerphone in ah in a foreign language because that's what they're used to or whether it means younger people putting their feet up on the seats or men not standing up for women whether pregnant or not or not opening the doors and holding the doors for women or
00:05:32
Speaker
you know just being aggressive and pushing to get on first. I'm using the tube as an example that's just ah is this these everyday things and lots and lots of these everyday things eventually grind people down and it's a spiritual battle because and in England, England has always been a Christian country. We've always held to to high standards and in fact the British Empire became so big because we spread those standards across the world and now we've forgotten them ourselves or been told we're not allowed to have them anymore because they're all fashioned or bigoted or something and so by doing away with them we've kind of gone to the lowest common denominator and so people don't feel they're allowed to speak up anymore for what they believe to be right or have always known to be right because they're told that makes them no longer a nice person and everyone wants to be liked everyone wants to be loved everyone wants to be seen as nice but i suppose the christian message is reminding people that it's not good enough to be nice we have to be good we have to strive to be good and that means we have to
00:06:26
Speaker
acknowledge that some things are objectively good and some things are objectively evil and we should move away from sin and towards goodness. And sometimes, I mean speaking in truth in love objectively, ah same things that people don't want to hear. and Sometimes it means doing things that we know to be right but people don't want us to do. And it takes a little bit of boldness but not much really. It takes a little bit of courage but not our own. And so it's getting back to those roots of our Christian values and saying, actually, not all cultures are equal. Not all values are equal. Not all ideas are equal. And actually, not all people are equal. We're not equal. We're all different. ah We're equal in terms of dignity and worth in the eyes of God. But in every other way, we're different. We all have different privileges and disadvantages. And that's actually the human existence. And we we have to we can't change that. A strive towards equality is a strive towards communism and the lowest common denominator and everyone being equally poor and equally unhappy. And it's not good for any of us.
00:07:22
Speaker
just pointed to a decline in religiosity in the United Kingdom. At the same time, there is decline in religiosity across the Anglosphere, admittedly at a slower rate in the United States, but the same trend is happening. I would also suggest you may see the same things on the New York subway as what you just mentioned on on the tube. If you want to catch one of the New York subways. Exactly. But this is this this goes to my question. To what extent is the malaise that you just mentioned common to the Anglosphere, and to what extent do you think it is isolated to the United Kingdom?
00:07:57
Speaker
Oh, so it is the West in general. You know, we used to call the West Christendom because we built it on Christian values. We built it around Christ. And then suddenly a post enlightenment is this this liberal progressive idea that all ideas are equal and therefore Christ has nothing to do with it. And we can have all the nice things we've had, all the good things we've had without him. And of course that's not true. We have them because of him. There is nothing good without him. But we've been resting on our walls and we've taken advantage and we've kind of taken for granted all the goodness of Christendom without put keeping Christ to the centre. And so it's like we're running on fumes. We're running on the fumes of what Christendom used to be. And now we call it the West. And now it's it's liberal, progressive, and and democratic, and and and secular. And so it's like we've removed the foundation. And so eventually that house is going to crumble, but not all at once. And so, yes, parts of Christendom are falling down faster than others. And I think England has fallen. I don't see a democratic means of turning things around. I don't think it's a diplomatic
00:08:55
Speaker
means of telling things around. I think of the current trajectory, it will become a predominantly Islamic nation in no time at all within our lifetimes. And I think that's great sadness. It's not something I want to see, but there aren't enough people wanting to do something about it. ah There are other parts of Europe that have fallen too. Many many parts of Germany and France are seeing similar issues. Eastern Europe, not so much because they've been allowed to, or they've at least fought back to protect their own values and culture much stronger than we have in the West. And But yes, America tends to be five to ten years behind us culturally this in this regard. thats One of the reasons I'm here is to give that warning and say, look, look what we've done. Don't follow us in this. Do not. Hang on to your First and Second Amendment. Hang on to your freedom of expression and worship and association. Hang on to your freedom to defend yourselves and hang on to your faith and your culture at all costs.
00:09:40
Speaker
I'm one of those perhaps slightly uneasy allies for you in the sense that I'm a fervent believer in Western civilization in the Judeo-Christian values that underpin Western civilization, but I haven't at this stage of my life been able to get to the point of believing in a higher power. I'm an atheist. So we'll get to maybe that friendly discussion around can you have the Western civilization with Judeo-Christian values without that belief or with a reducing number of people having that level of belief. But just park that for a second because I want to just keep diagnosing what exactly is going wrong first. You mentioned the question of Islam. It is the elephant in the room for so many people, and so many people are afraid to have this conversation.
00:10:24
Speaker
What do you say to someone who has Islamic neighbors who goes, oh, they're friendly. They're nice. They come and watch the football on the weekends. This is an imaginary problem. Someone like a Sadiq Khan would say that this is a confected problem made up by racists. How do you respond to to people like that?
00:10:42
Speaker
it's ah It's a misunderstanding of of sin and its conflation that the the enemy has been doing for a long time. actually The Christian message is to love the sinner and hate the sin. So if there's something that stops you getting to heaven, that thing should be heated, but not the person. We want the person to get to heaven. That's the whole point. Now Islam is contradictory to the truth because it's a Christian heresy. It took parts of the truth and twisted them. and the ports of the bible in the car on and lots of twistings of that and it's it's ah it's a faith that is built up what i mean it was started by a warm hungry pedophile let's be honest just saying the word people's heckles but going we can't say that about someone else's pain but no mohammed himself if he ever existed in this very little evidence of that i believe himself to be demon possessed these are his words not mine ah He married a what six-year-old and consummated the marriage at nine in the eyes of anyone that's objectively making him a paedophile. And he started wars to spread his faith by fear, intimidation, and violence. That makes him a war-monger. And so these are facts, these are objective facts about him. People can say that doesn't matter, why it doesn't matter, but they can't say that it's not true.
00:11:47
Speaker
And so when there's a faith built on that foundation, it's not going to be a healthy faith. It's not going to be a healthy religion or culture. And so the values of it, you know, when we look at Islamic cultures around the world where women aren't allowed to vote, we forget that, we're not allowed to drive. They're not allowed to go out in public without their husband or father. Thieves have their hands cut off and people are flocked in public for for minor petty crimes. And so it's the culture, an ideology that is very contradictory to to Christendom and to Western values. But of course, ah one of the things we're told is we have to be nice and we have to we can't disparage or dislike even anyone else's ideology or culture because that would be racist or xenophobic or Islamophobic or something. It's like, well,
00:12:32
Speaker
People are allowed to have opinions of things and like things and not like things and actually believe things and not believe things and part of the Christian faith is to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is our Lord and Savior and that anyone who says otherwise is a false prophet and therefore if Muhammad did ever exist he would be in the eyes of Christianity a false prophet. Now to say that doesn't make me bigoted maybe bigoted against Islam, it makes me a Christian.
00:12:56
Speaker
The people to say you're not allowed to say that. It makes probably makes them anti-Christian, but of course that's not terminology that we would use. But going back to the the fundamental point of your question that what if you have neighbors who are very nice Muhammadans? Well, yes, most Muhammadans are nice people. Most people are nice people.
00:13:12
Speaker
ah to some extent. But if we if we love our neighbour, as we're all to do, we want our neighbour to get to heaven, therefore we want our neighbour to know Jesus Christ because He is the only way to the Father. He is the truth, the way and the life. And there is no way into heaven except through Him. And so if we love them,
00:13:27
Speaker
We want them to know him as Christians. And even if someone is not a Christian, even if someone is atheist, they should be able to see that the harm and the danger that their ideology of Islam brings and not want the ideology in our countries. And that doesn't mean the people aren't allowed. And we can have different conversations about the levels of immigration, where immigrants are allowed to come from and all those specific criteria. That's a different ah argument entirely. But there should be an argument to be heard of whether Islam is harmful for the West. And we only have to look at the the vast majority of terrorist atrocities over the last few years to to decide, well, it's probably not the best for us.
00:14:03
Speaker
No doubt some people listening to this would have found the way that you described Islam jarring. Interesting thing for me is it wasn't so long ago, 10 or 15 years ago, where people like Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, the new atheists were using very similar language in best-selling books that were trendy amongst the mainstream liberal elite.
00:14:27
Speaker
ah In fact, if you read the chapter on Islam in God is Not Great, I think you'd probably find very, very similar rhetoric from Hitchens, and that was cool and trendy. I gobbled up those books as a teenager. so My question is, why? and yeah yeah even i Initially, and the first time I heard that you're saying that, I found it jarring to hear, despite the fact I would agree substantially with what you're saying.
00:14:49
Speaker
How in a relatively short historical period have we gone from having these open debates around religion to being cowered into silence, particularly around Islam? Piece by piece, because again, people want to be seen as nice. and When you're told to be seen as nice, you have to agree with some set of values and not ever disagree with any other set of values, then that's what people mostly will do. For example, this piecemeal approach In the last few months, the Oxford English Dictionary has redefined the word Islamophobia, and you can look this up for yourselves. Islamophobia used to mean and it's an irrational fear of Islam, as most phobias mean. That's where the word phobia comes from. That's the etymology of it. Now, the new definition of Islamophobia in the Oxford English Dictionary is a dislike of Islam. that's very yeah this' It's a very nuanced ah change, but it means ah
00:15:38
Speaker
There's a massive difference in what it means, because it means you're not allowed to dislike something, because to dislike that thing makes you a phobe, it makes you an Islamophobe. No one wants to be a phobe of anything, no one wants to be irrationally afraid of anything, but also no one wants to be seen as against something that is the core of someone else's beliefs. So if I were to say to you, I do not like Islam, which would be a true fact,
00:15:59
Speaker
That would make me by the new definition an Islamaphobe. And that makes me, what I'm saying, Islamaphobic. And therefore, if we have laws that say, i well, actually can't be Islamaphobic, that outlaws my speech and my thoughts and my beliefs. And and so people, again, people want to be seen as nice.
00:16:15
Speaker
Well, of course, let them get on with whatever they want to get on with. Great. I don't want to be against that. and and and Also, I don't want to be seen as an Islamophobe, so people won't say what they know to be true, that actually the the Pakistani Muslim grooming gangs that we're seeing up and down the country that are being swept under the rug by the police, the civil authorities, the politicians, the media,
00:16:36
Speaker
We're seeing young british or particularly young white British girls groomed, raped, and sometimes even murdered because of an ideology. I dislike that ideology for that reason and many others. But if you're not allowed to have that conversation, the grooming, the raping, and the potential murder is going to continue. And this we're seeing this with many, many serious issues that we're not allowed to have the conversation, we're not allowed to think a certain thing. And so the badness continues around us. It is the work of the enemy, this slight manipulation of our language over time, which means that people cower away and let evil continue to exist. And it's like, you know was it Edmund Burke who said that all it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to say nothing? And that's what we have. Our whole country of good men saying nothing. This is such a critical point. I spoke a bit to Brendan O'Neill on this a while ago. He's coming back on the show in in a few weeks. And the manipulation of language from the progressive, illiberal left seems to be such a
00:17:29
Speaker
an important component of their broader agenda, whether it be around Islamophobia, whether it re be around the definition of men or women, whether it be around the definition of a plethora of other issues. It seems like if you can change the way that we think about words, you can then change behaviours very easily. it's it's It is so central to that particular mission.
00:17:49
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, we've we've seen this in 1984, right? You just predefine the language and you change the history and you change people's thoughts, but all it's bigger than just the the progressive and liberal left. Well, this this is the work of the enemy. and I know you don't believe in the enemy, but this is what I see in that you change what it means to be a man you change what it means to be a woman Why? Because we are made in the image of God. Our connection to to the Creator is the very essence of who we are and what we are. We are made in Margot Day in the image of God. And if you corrupt that image, you corrupt our idea of God. Therefore, you corrupt our connection to God. A lot of this comes down to to who God is. and the enemy attacking God, the whole disruption of the family, the family unit is fundamental. And then we get to the disruption of the community and the disruption of the nation and the whole disruption of the patriarchy. All of these neo-moxist movements, whether it's critical race theory, gender theory, queer theory, you name it.
00:18:41
Speaker
They all say we must destroy the patriarchy, destroy heteronormativity. Oh God, the Father is our ultimate patriarch. He is the one that shows us his good design for for a good life and that is a patriarchal system. But of course, again, that will jot people hearing that those words. Now, patriarch is now seen as instantly bad, but why? Because male headship is good and ordered and actually men and women think differently.
00:19:05
Speaker
not better than each other, but differently, complementary. We have different skills, talents, abilities, and those should work together. And the enemy wants to disrupt that, to disrupt nature, again, to disrupt our relationship with God our Father. Who said call Him Father? he Jesus Christ tells us to call God the Father, Abba. And again, this is what it's all about, attacking God through attacking us, who because we are made in the image of God.
00:19:30
Speaker
Is it possible for us to have this conversation around Islam in Western societies today in a rational way? Or are we we too far past that point? Is it just now too easy to be smeared as a racist and therefore coward into silence? How do we actually combat this? How do we actually bring this sensible debate back into into the public consciousness? Grow some cahooders.
00:19:55
Speaker
um So what if someone calls you an Islamophobe, a racist, a xenophobe, transphobe, whatever phobe or labels you with an Islam? So what? What does it matter? What does it do? Does that actually do anything? It doesn't change the truth. And you know in your heart that you're not a racist or a xenophobe or a Islamophobe or a transphobe or whatever. You know that. Your friends know that. The people that love you know that. God knows that. So what does it matter if your enemy calls you that? but We've got to get over this. It's weak, it's pathetic, it's feeble, it's cowardice.
00:20:28
Speaker
I'm sick and tired of people being fearful of being cancelled, but it's something that I don't think we can tell people about or talk to people about. I think people have to live it, unfortunately. The strongest people I know or people that have been cancelled in some way, they've come through it and on the other end, they found a strength that they've realised actually.
00:20:46
Speaker
doesn't matter. They can cancel me all they like. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't change the truth. It might mean I don't get the promotion or I lose that job or my family member is no longer talking to me or my friend doesn't friend me or whatever. There are inconveniences to being cancelled, of course there are.
00:21:01
Speaker
But actually, principles and integrity matter more than convenience. And we've got to get back to that. And that's something that each and every individual has to do for themselves. They can rely on the help of God, but they have to do it for themselves. We can't give that to people. And that's why it's difficult when you see a whole nation, pretty much, of people sitting back in fear. and You think, get up, stand up.
00:21:24
Speaker
There's a wonderful line from John Anderson, former Deputy Prime Minister of Australia, who's been on on the show before and he says that the only cure for council culture is courage culture and it's one that has stayed with me. I think you're exactly right. It goes to the broader conversation around authoritarianism and freedom of speech.
00:21:44
Speaker
This is a choose your own adventure question, but how have you reflected on that change in the way that we think about speech probably over the last 20 years, maybe in the West, but then how it seems to be accelerating rapidly under the New Starman government?
00:22:01
Speaker
Well, I believe in freedom of speech for the purposes of proclaiming the gospel, right? So it's a freedom because we're we're all called to spread the good news. it's not an absolute It's not an absolute freedom for the sake of an abstract idea. but Other people have different ideas on freedom of speech.
00:22:14
Speaker
but is about the truth. And we used to all strive for the truth. It used to be something that Western civilization was built upon, this idea of obtaining the objective truth throughout history. For the but vast majority of people, for the vast majority of time in the West, that has meant Jesus Christ. Post-Enlightenment, we're we more individualistic. And in modernity, we are told, actually, we all have our own truths, and there's this objective of truth has been manipulated into a plurality of truths. I don't think that's true. I don't think that's realistic. I don't think it's possible, but that's the world we live in now where everyone ah lives in their own parallel universe. Everyone has their own worldview, their own truth, and if you disrupt someone else's truth, that's actually an offense.
00:23:02
Speaker
And it can't last. It really can't. But the only way to get back to it is to look towards freedom of speech, is to look towards debate, reason, and and theology. and to remove to move away from emotive ideologies and to to move away from everything being a reaction or a feeling and get back to what is true, what is beautiful and what is good. Because the whole whole purpose of those things isn't just for the sake of them, it's because they transcend us. They left us out of this play into something that's greater than us. And I think that's important, whether people are religious or not.
00:23:40
Speaker
It's understandable. It's sad, but understandable to see how the left, many parts of the left have caved on freedom of speech in the last 50 years. You look at the way that words have been conflated with the concept of harm, which makes it easier to be able to shut down speech. If you look at the rise of identity politics and the way that particular words can marginalize groups, all this stuff, I can understand why they go, you know what, let's shut down debate.
00:24:07
Speaker
What I find harder to understand is why so many people on the right seemingly aren't arguing for free speech on first principles in the way that perhaps they once did. I think you'll find that many people were disappointed with the Conservatives in the 14 years they're in power in the United Kingdom in a way they didn't stick up the civil liberties as much as they should in Australia. The moment there is still debate as to whether or not The right of politics, the liberal party should fight against misinformation and disinformation bills. I would say in America as well, the Republicans certainly aren't as strong as they perhaps once were on the notion of freedom. So my question is, why is the right not as good as they once were at arguing for its civil liberties and for freedom of speech?
00:24:52
Speaker
You're assuming that people still care about li liberties and freedoms, or understands them. I think if the COVID scenario has taught us anything, it's that people care more about safetyism than liberty. People care more about being safe than being free. And that means people are willing to be slaves and prisoners ah in order to feel protected. That's a great shame. I thought, I genuinely thought that most of the West believed more in freedom and and and our own liberties.
00:25:17
Speaker
Well, what does freedom mean? I suppose even that's a word that's been manipulated over recent years and that's probably affected why people care less about it. Freedom in a Christian sense is obedience to God, right? So God sets out a plan, a good order, and you follow that plan. You live a good life and you're more fulfilled and more rewarded. You step away from the plan and you come across more sin and error and and and badness to to put it ah quite broadly.
00:25:43
Speaker
In modern society, we're told that freedom is freedom to do whatever we choose and freedom from any responsibility. And that's never been the way we understood freedom in the past. ah Any right used to come with a responsibility. and But now we live in a culture of just rights for the sake of rights. And so I have the freedom to to do whatever I choose. And if you impede on that freedom, you are impeding on my rights.
00:26:05
Speaker
But that right if that right doesn't come with a responsibility, we have it's all individualistic. it's It's me, me, me, me. It's never part of the community. And so we've been separated from each other through this false idea of what freedom is. know A nation is built upon communities, and communities are built upon families, and families are built upon individuals. But all these things string together. take Remove one, and the whole thing kind of crumbles and falls apart. So I have a duty and an obligation to my family, to my parish, to my community, and to my nation.
00:26:33
Speaker
But if you tell me I only have a duty and a responsibility to myself and all I have is rights to myself to to to do what I like and I have no responsibility to the other, then I have no sense of love either. Never mind freedom because love means willing the good of the other. But again, it's another word that's being manipulated in modernity to mean personal desire, satisfaction, lust even. It's all about me, me, me. That's what modernity is. Actually, love is the opposite of me. Me doesn't come into love.
00:27:00
Speaker
with willing the good of the other is what love means. It's sacrificial, it's self-giving. It's about the other person or other persons, it's about everyone else but me. part of that framework you just laid out, going from the individual upwards, want to pick out nation there. There has always been this strange feeling amongst parts of the United Kingdom to turn their noses up at the idea of patriotism. There's that old George Orwell quote, the one that goes something along the lines of the British intelligentsia would rather steal from the poor box in church on a Sunday than sing God Save the King. There's always obviously been that instinct there.
00:27:38
Speaker
But I think that is another thing which has accelerated. I think the idea of patriotism amongst a broader cross-section of British people today, and I would add so Australians into that mix, is seen as almost a bit passé. If not dangerous, why do people feel less pride in their country than they once did?
00:27:58
Speaker
yeah I agree with the latter half. I don't agree with the the former half of the question. I don't think we've always turned on those other patriots. If you look at our national anthem or look at Royal Britannia, Britain never ever shall be slaves. We rule the waves. We had great pride in that. In the British Empire, it was seen as an objectively good thing. Certainly in recent years, thisby we've only looked at the the negatives of the empire and not allowed to look at the good that it brought the world anymore. I think the reason why We've had a reverse in and all of that stuff. It's because of the the Great Wars. If you look at World War II, we in Britain saw the problem of World War II as Naziism, right? so So national socialism. So nationalism was a part of the problem. And so we've recoiled against nationalism for that reason. But of course, that was an extremity. And nationalism is good. Loving your nation is good because it means you you love your neighbor. It means we are able to discern who our neighbor is because we know who we are.
00:28:50
Speaker
There is a sense of utter and othering that's important in in human nature. but The father, his natural instinct is to protect his family first and foremost. Once his family is safe, then he protects the neighbor's family. and that's That's the same with nations. We have to you feed our hungry, house our homeless, and clothe the cloth are needy, and provide shelter for veterans before we can extend foreign aid. And this is why lots so people get upset today. People who are still patriotic, who are still nationalistic, who see that actually we're spending eight billion pounds a year with the United Kingdom on foreign aid, plus three billion a year for the Ukraine. And XYZ here and there, when actually we've got veterans sleeping on the street, we've got people, elderly people unable to heat their homes this winter for goodness sake. So we haven't taken care of our family before looking after the neighbor. And so actually it's all upside down and it's not working because we've we've we've inverted it.
00:29:43
Speaker
Some people would have looked at the riots that erupted in the United Kingdom recently as a legitimate expression of patriotism. Others would have seen them as racist violence. How did you perceive them?
00:29:55
Speaker
A lot of upset people, a lot of upset people, some of them turning angry. A lot of disenfranchised people who know that the state is no longer on their side. The police are often no longer on their side. Politicians and the mainstream media are no longer on their side. A lot of people who we often call the silent majority finding their voice and saying, well, we've had enough. You know, when we see foreigners coming in and destroying the country, sending fire to buses or vandalizing or even abusing people. And then we see young British girls being killed.
00:30:25
Speaker
for no particular reason. Of course people are gonna get upset. Of course people are gonna get angry. My message has always been protest is good, but violence is bad. it shouldn't It shouldn't turn to violence, but I can understand why it did. But for them to be all labeled as far-right thugs is disgusting on the parts of the state. of Our prime minister should be there for everyone to unite everyone. He should understand, he should have empathy towards these ordinary working-class British folk. And it seems that there was a two-tiered approach to his response, you know saying things like, we need to provide more funding for the mosques to make sure they're protected.
00:30:57
Speaker
And ah actually, there were a lot of Mohammedans causing problems. A lot of violence was coming from Mohammedan communities. And where was his unity? Where is he saying, well, actually, it's not just the Mohammedans, it's also the Brits, or it's not just the Brits, it's also the Mohammedans. Where was he saying, everyone's at fault for violence? No, it's that particular community is protected and favoured, whereas the natives are disparaged and called horrible names. So no reason. It's silly. It's going to cause more division. Maybe that's his plan. I don't know. It can't all be incompetence.
00:31:25
Speaker
Why do you use the term Mohammedans as opposed to Muslims? Because they follow Mohammed, just as I follow Christ. Muslim means true believer in God. I don't believe they are true believers in God. And I think that's another ah era where the enemy has manipulated language and I refuse to play that game. So just as I refuse to call someone he, she, when she's clearly a woman, I refuse to call Mohammedans Muslims.
00:31:47
Speaker
There's been a conversation recently, another one of those sorts of social media firestorms around, is there in fact even an English identity anymore? Is there a white English identity? Do you think it is appropriate for people, just as people black people are proud of being black, is it appropriate for white British people, white people more generally perhaps, to be proud of being white?
00:32:11
Speaker
I've never really been interested in race. I've never really been interested interested in skin color. I don't take any pride in being brown or mixed race. I'm not ashamed of it, but I certainly take no pride in it. It's just a happenstance of birth. But we choose where we live. We choose to stay in our country at birth. And I think there there is something different about patriotism. So being having some healthy pride in your country, it's not just about you, it's about people you're with too.
00:32:37
Speaker
and it yeah There's a sense of culture as well as ethnicity, which does come into it, and language, and values, and all those things that make up a nation. That is important. That's good. And I think it's important to be proud to to be English or to be proud to be British. I wouldn't necessarily say it's good to be proud to be black or proud to be white, but I can understand why people feel that white dots on them. that Their values are different to mine. But this idea that there's no such thing as as English culture or or British culture, yes, there there is, and there are. And people who say that are lying.
00:33:08
Speaker
you know I look at Japan, I see there's clearly a Japanese culture. I can describe some elements of it, but I can't pin it down entirely. and It's the same for England and it's the same for Britain. and though There's a lot of conflation there between England and Britain because British values take on board a lot of English values, but they're not the same thing. They are slightly different because English is also an ethnicity, whereas British is a nationality.
00:33:29
Speaker
and and British includes some Scottish elements, some Welsh, some Northern Irish, whereas English is just English. and There are differences between England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, even though there are lots of similarities. But all those nuances are lost these days by the so-called liberal progressives who don't want to see our culture and our values adhered to so they just tell us they don't exist what they do people have been coming to to our country for millennia because they love our culture they love our values they love our language they love our heritage they love our faith and all the things that we have held dear for so so long so to say they don't even exist it's gaslighting they're trying to gaslight us
00:34:03
Speaker
Then again, they'll say, well, what are they then? What are British values? Well, Michael Gove defined them as democracy, the rule of law and tolerance of people in different faiths and norms. I don't think they're British values. I think that's something a politician made up, but I think British values are intangible.
00:34:17
Speaker
the left will be like, ah, gotcha, they don't exist, then you can't save. Well, again, I can say i can say what some of them are, but I can't pin the whole thing down, just I can't pin down Chinese values or Japanese values or Persian values. But I can say, you know, British values, some of it is etiquette, you know, the way we eat with a knife and fork.
00:34:33
Speaker
ah coming over to America I see they just use the fork usually they'll cut something and they'll put the knife aside and they' use and that's not rude to them that's just part of their culture that's very different in England like it's a small thing but the cultures are made up of lots of small things ah please and thank you lining up queuing up rather is a British product being polite has always been a British value some of our dishes are part of our culture you know the pork pie what it actually most pies from shepherd's pie to a meat and potato pie to a steak and ale pie mashed potatoes and gravy having proper gravy you know like an au jus rather than whatever they have out here, the flower flowery, ah white gravy. There are lots of things that collectively make Britain great, make the United Kingdom great, make England great, and the the disparaging remarks of the left are wicked and should be ignored, and we should have more celebrations of the things that make us great.
00:35:24
Speaker
I'll add another one to that list as an outsider to the United Kingdom who nonetheless has chosen to be here, who loves this country, who has an enduring respect for the history of and culture of the United Kingdom.
00:35:37
Speaker
And that is that quiet resolve, that sense of keep calm and carry on, the sense that this is a land that since the Romans has endured through world wars, through invasion, through, you name it, and they always seem to endure with this sort of stoicism that was most recently perhaps personified through the Queen. The curious thing about this, and I think this is also so the case in Australia, is that national identity is at odds with that sense of individualism which is now so ingrained in the West that you mentioned earlier. There is now this struggle between the way the world is going towards a more individualist mindset
00:36:19
Speaker
and the way that the United Kingdom has traditionally thought about itself. I just wonder what happens when you have that large-scale identity crisis play out. We used to understand that no one mine is an island and that were collectively but' we're together and that's a good thing. There is still an element of that, but this hyper-individualism actually comes with hyper-collectivism. I know that sounds contradictory, but the idea that we're all individuals breaks down the nation-state, but it works towards the global state. It works towards the United States of Europe, or all the one world government, that we're all part of some global nation. We're all one people, one globe, one world, one religion. Actually, that's that's quite wicked and demonic, and it's anti-Scriptural, anti-Christian. We are not all the same.
00:37:04
Speaker
There are different cultures, there are different races, and and that's important because it's got ordained. you know The Tower of Babel was split apart for a reason, and nations and tribes are got ordained for a purpose. But this idea that we all, I don't want to be governed by Berlin or Brussels. I don't want to be governed by a foreign entity in a foreign nation where I have no democratic say, not that democracy should become an idol, but that we should be sovereign in our nation. The United Kingdom has always been seen as sovereign. And and suddenly something shifted. We saw this around the Brexit debate where people said, I'm not British, I'm European. It's like, well, we've never considered ourselves that way. Yes, we're technically European as in we're in the continent, but we've never seen ourselves as Europeans there. That's always been the other. We've always been Englishmen, Britons,
00:37:49
Speaker
but we've never seen ourselves as fundamentally European. Something shifted, something changed there and it's dangerous because this global globalization that we're seeing means that everything's the same. you know i used As a child, I used to go to France and spend francs and visit the little cheese shops and wine shops and I used to go to Germany and spend Deutschmarks and visit the Rhine and everything was slightly different. It was lovely, little cultural differences. Now it's it It's McDonald's, Burger King, KFC. We say, oh, it's just Americanisation, but this is globalisation as well. it's It's just homogeneity. That's sad, because at the same time, we're all told we're just individuals, but also part of it's just one great big global entity, whereas unlike
00:38:32
Speaker
the the red phone boxes of London, the red bosses. I like our little country lanes where you couldn't get a great but great big gas guzzler down. I like the know the traditional, ivory every hedgerow and pasture. It's like the greenness of of England. <unk> There's something beautiful about our land and it is ah is ah a land mass, Great Britain. It is ah is a place as well as an idea and that things come together. There's nothing wrong with liking that and wanting to protect that.
00:39:03
Speaker
You've only moved to the US recently but i know that you've traveled there on and off for for some time now. How do you reflect on how they are trying to hold onto their identity in the face of that globalist blob say compared to the united kingdom.
00:39:21
Speaker
It's something I like about the Americans. They still believe in their freedom and they still believe in Jesus Christ, but they also still believe in America as an idea. They don't like the idea of people coming in and taking it away or taking over. They don't like the idea of the government taking over. The whole point of their first two amendments in their constitution is that they should be expecting a terrorist government and they should be prepared to defend themselves against a terrorist government because the government is supposed to be getting out of the way of people's lives and just enabling a basic safety net so that people can live as free as they possibly can in this earth. and Americans get that. and There is still kind of an empirical attitude too that Americanism is so good that they want to spread it around the world. Some of them, in the newcons some some of the more conservative people think, well, no, this is just asked to protect here. But either way, they see a goodness in it. yeah They all unite under their flag. They all sing their national anthem and and
00:40:16
Speaker
whenever something patriotic comes on the radio, though there's a sense of joy and camaraderie in a good way um that we don't have in Britain. And I think it's part of our reserve nature has meant that we we see patriotism now as we do, we are a bit sloppy. We do see it as as less of them, but actually that's to our own detriment. And we used to not unite behind the queen, but with with her passing to glory, we no longer have that unifying aspect The Americans have their pledge of allegiance and their flag and and lots of elements, they they still stick around. and So we need to re-find what brings us together. It used to be Jesus Christ, of course, um and and now that we're living in a secular society, we we're scrambling scrambling for something.
00:40:59
Speaker
Let's go there then. Do you think it is possible to find some sort of unifying common ground in a secular society in absence of Jesus Christ? That's if it, that's that way. we've we've Part of the reason we're in the massive area is because we've we've succumb to the idea that all faiths are equal. Actually, we should live in a so secular liberal society where there is no predominant faith and that Christianity is alongside Judaism and Hinduism and Sikhism and Islam. and That's a good thing. so Well, no, not all these religions are good. Not all these cultures and ideas and values are good. and We've determined over, I mean, in any
00:41:33
Speaker
that Christianity is good. and It's the value set that we want to live by by. That doesn't mean everyone in England has to be a Christian. We'd never believe that but because God teaches us free will. And ah yes, we want everyone to become Christian, but we don't think everyone should be Christian. We will never force that. That's not our way. Whereas in Islamic states, they do force everyone to become Mohammedan.
00:41:51
Speaker
But the whole reason that freedom of worship has been protected for so long is because it's a Christian principle, the idea that people have the right to freedom of worship, to worship God or not. And outside of that, Christian protection, we don't have it. Any other country does not have it to the degree that Christian countries have had it. And that means that if you live in a country that's predominantly Islamic, you could be killed for not being a Muhammadan. It means that if you're in a country that is of another faith, predominantly, you could be persecuted for being a Christian. Whereas if you're in a Christian country, you're free. And that's why it's been important so that it's important for Christians and small Christians that Britain remains Christian. But you also don't see
00:42:31
Speaker
You know, it's easy to see, oh, the values that we have, the Christian values are good, but I don't want the faith. It's like, well, the faith is is upstream of that. The values come from the faith. Like you take away the faith. you Again, you can ride that car without petrol for so long, but eventually it will run out. you're run You're running on fumes because one thing leads to the other. And I think even the atheist has sought in to realize this. you know Richard Dawkins has recently said in his comments that he's been too disparaging towards Christianity because he'd rather have Christianity than Islam. And of course, there will be one.
00:42:58
Speaker
there is no secular liberal society, that doesn't exist. You take away a set of values, you create a void, that nature upholds a vacuum, that void will be filled with something. And people tend to think, well, liberal values were filling, what are liberal values? They change from day to day. And this is why we have the problem of wokeness, because the value set shifts so rapidly that people can't keep up. And so at the moment in England, Islam is the faith that is filling that void. And so people have to decide, do I want to live in an Islamic country? For me, it's no. But if that's what people want, shame.
00:43:27
Speaker
Islam is filling that void, and I think as you inferred there, identity politics has filled that void. So it's been interesting. I think Constan and Kisson had a little spiel on this recently. It's been interesting reflecting on the new atheists of the early 2000s and pondering whether if they could see into the future and they could see that that void would be filled potentially with more troubling ideologies like the rise of identity politics.
00:43:52
Speaker
but they have still taken the path that they they they took? and it's It's an interesting question, but I agree with you entirely that that perhaps some of the problems that we are seeing today are as a result of decline in in religiosity in that regard. so where you are going to commit to jesus christ as you lord saying This would be the first time that a podcast guest has has turned me to Christ. The thing that I struggle with is I think on an individual level, I think it is more than possible. In fact, I think it is completely possible to live a moral life in absence of higher faith. Where I have potentially evolved in my thinking over the last decade is I think it is increasingly difficult for a society, as in a large group of people, to be able to do that. That that is that is my that is my challenge at the moment.
00:44:37
Speaker
Yeah, I get where you're coming from. As an individual, you can if the wider society is Christian, because then you can operate without that faith, but within that moral set. But if that moral set is not there, then what's good, what's bad? Well, depends on what the blue-haired monster next to me says is good or bad, right? So you have to have that collective shared agreement of what is good and bad. And as Christians, we get that from God, we get that from the scriptures. But if there's a society that isn't centered on the Christian faith, it's anyone's guess as to what's good and what's bad.
00:45:04
Speaker
I guess there are other ways that you can choose to organize morality. you know Enlightenment thinkers would point to a set of sort of set of principles that were agreed ah some time ago. You could point to social Darwinism. I can set those principles, and I'm based on what, and it's always abstract and arbitrary, and changes. and This is why we have openness, because those values constantly change. what you know Five minutes ago, we understood that a man was a man and a woman was a woman, and that was our sex that was decided before we were born, by God, when He designed us. But now we we tend to, well, not we, but the message is that actually your gender is something that's assigned you at birth and you can change your gender if you want. and Gender and sex are two different things. Oh no, they're the same thing and you can change your your sex as well as your gender and and who can keep up with this nonsense. and But of course, this is where this is where liberalism leads always. Those values and those principles will always change unless there is an objective truth. And
00:45:59
Speaker
The only way to have an objective truth is to is to seek the truth, who is Jesus Christ, who is God. Otherwise, we become the gods ourselves, and then if everyone's a god, everyone's got their own truth, and we go back to where we started the conversation of the plurality of truths. It's been, in some respects, ah a gloomy conversation for a gloomy moment, but I want to ask you before we go, Calvin, are there reasons for optimism, both for the UK and for the West? When you look to the future, are there reasons for hope?
00:46:25
Speaker
There are always reasons for hope, but there's always a reason for optimism. This is why Christians are the happiest people in the world, because it doesn't matter really, not really what happens here, because we're promised eternal reward in in his heavenly kingdom. Can that lead to a sense of nihilism? Well, no, because that's that's the opposite. that's the that Nothing matters because there's no there's there's nothing. right Christianity is that nothing really matters on this earth because we're working towards something greater. And so when I say nothing really matters, of course, it does matter. Of course, we're called to recycle the nations. We're called to advance the kingdom in the here and now. So we are called to contribute and be active, but it's for the reasons of eternal glorification. The the beatific vision is knowing God face-to- face to face is why we're doing all of this. But what I mean when I say it doesn't really matter, I mean,
00:47:13
Speaker
England, as as we know and love it, may crumble. But that's not the end. God's picture is bigger, is broader, and something greater may come as a result. And as Christians, we have to be there to make sure the crisis is put at the centre of whatever comes next. The British Empire was the greatest empire in the world for the longest time. One of the greatest empires in human history, actually.
00:47:34
Speaker
but it is no longer an empire and it's been on a downward trajectory for a hundred years and may continue to do so. Just as the Roman Empire rose and fell, the British Empire looks like it's fallen, the American Empire looks like it might be might have peaked. We can't take these things for granted and we we tend to think what we know and love now will always be.
00:47:52
Speaker
but We know that's not true, but somehow we deceive ourselves. But the the hope comes from the fact that it doesn't really matter doesn't really matter because whatever is to come, we have to shape in Jesus Christ's name in his image. And he is where we get our hope and our faith and our love. And actually meeting him is what we're aiming towards.
00:48:09
Speaker
I was listening to you the other day in an interview on the New Culture Forum, and I noticed that you said that you're getting a a ah studio set up in your parish, which is exciting. So you're not giving up on fighting the good fight. Where can people continue to listen to you? Thank you for that. Yes, CalvinRobinson dot.com is my sub-stack, which is the best place to support me. I've got a show with Lawrence Fox every week called called Fox and Father. I've got my common sense crusade, which is on the Lotus Eaters, and I run evening prayers now on a Sunday at 8 30 british time on youtube dot.com forward slash at common sense crusade ah so i'm all over the place still fighting good fights still spreading the good news still proclaiming all nord of savior jesus christ still doing everything i can i just can't get arrested for saying it anymore that's how the difference calvin thank you for coming on fire fire at will thank you god bless you and come to church
00:48:59
Speaker
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