Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to season four of the Guardians of Hope podcast, where we empower the voices of medical, legal, tech, nonprofit, and mental health professionals dedicated to helping children and families. We are here to offer resources and information for anyone who wants to make a child's life better and richer. We need it now more than ever.
Speaker: Welcome everyone. Domestic violence affects more than 10 million Americans every year. We talk about survivors, about safety, escape, and healing.
Speaker: And that conversation is essential. But one piece of the puzzle gets far less attention, even though it may be one of the most powerful levers we have for breaking the cycle entirely.
Speaker: What happens to the person who caused the harm? Most intervention programs send offenders through the same court mandated process and hope for the best.
Speaker: But research tells us that completion matters enormously. Offenders who complete structured intervention programs are significantly less likely to reoffend than those who don't.
Speaker: Yet, completion alone is not the measure of transformation. What matters more is whether meaningful behavioral change actually occurs. The question is what that program looks like, who delivers it, and whether it goes deep enough to create real lasting change rather than just satisfying a court requirement.
Speaker: Dr. Denise Healy has spent more than 40 years asking that question and building the answer. She's the co-founder and CEO of Streets to Schools, a California-based organization that provides court-mandated programming for individuals convicted of domestic violence, child endangerment, and related offenses.
Speaker: Dr. Healy has built her life's work on the belief that even the most fractured human connections can be repaired. Dr. Healy, welcome. Thanks for joining.
Speaker: Thank you so much for having me. This is such an important topic. Yes, I agree. Thanks for being here. um and at And, you know, this month especially, we want to highlight this topic um more than ever. um i think when most people hear domestic violence intervention, they think about protecting survivors, and rightfully so. But you've dedicated your career working with the people who cause the harm.
Speaker: Why is rehabilitating the offender one of the most powerful things we can do for survivors and children? Well, to start, I didn't start my career. i started my career working with children and seeing and and survivors and working with survivors and seeing the impact of domestic violence on that population. And I always wondered, i i would wonder, like, what's going on with the offender and Are they getting the help they need or are they changing and transforming and are they becoming better human beings through this process? And so what I did is in 2015, I flipped the script and I started working with offenders because while I think it's so valuable to work with survivors and children of domestic violence, It's not going to a correct the underlying issue of the person creating the harm. We have a saying. If we can if we can affect the offender, then we are affecting abuse in the in the long run. We're helping survivors not not be present. like they don't They won't have to deal with the survivor issues at all if we take care of ah dealing with the offender.
Speaker: Right, you're getting to the root cause of the entire issue. Yeah. yeah And so you develop something called the love and compassion cycle, a model that looks at how unprocessed trauma and distorted beliefs contribute to cycles of violence.
Speaker: Can you walk us through what that's what that is and what's actually happening inside a person's head when they are the abuser? Well, you know, one of the most heartbreaking things I've learned working with this population is that people genuinely believe, genuinely believe that the offender genuinely ah believes that they love this person. And yet they are...
Speaker: creating a situation where they're being violent with the person. So there's that separation between what their belief is and what their actions are. And so I developed a love and compassion cycle to counter what we call the domestic violence cycle. In domestic violence, there is that tension phase, and then there's the explosion phase, and then there is what we call the honeymoon phase. what we do is it's and it's all veiled under the concept of denial you have to deny that you're hurting these the people you love and and just focusing on the tension so we take that piece away and we focus on creative problem solving and helping people move right into creative problem solving so that they can deal with their accountability and their attitudinal change and develop the skill to move right into um what we call is the love and compassion phase, right? And develop intimacy and play. The greatest thing i get to experience is when people have tried the problem-solving phase and and then they say, oh yeah, we went to the fair or we went to the amusement park with the family. We just had a great time being with each other. That tells me that they've moved out of any tension phase and they've worked through some problems where they can actually relax and play. And that develops the the underlying intimacy and then the real connection within the relationship.
Speaker: her So the second part of my question was what's actually happening in the in the abusers mind. Can we talk a little bit about that? I know you just covered, you know, um going through the relaxed state and what keeps them at a steady, relaxed state, but like what's going in gone in their mind when they are offending.
Speaker: Well, it's very it's very complex. An offender, while they they are hurting the person they love, what's really going on is it's backing up to beliefs and um um cognitive structure that has been developed over time. Because children develop their understanding of relationship by the models that they experience through their parenting, through the parents that are working with them. And so what's really important is that we we're dealing with beliefs, not necessarily only the behavior. If you believe that this is the way we relationships operate and are successful through power and control and manipulation and coercion, then you're going to exercise that in order to get your sense of
Speaker: accomplishment within the relationship. But if you learn a new understanding of what relationship is, that it's based in love, it's based on putting the other person first, it's based on um um being humbly accountable for everything we do, everything we say, everything we think, then we have a better opportunity to reframe that relationship and change our belief around relationship.
Speaker: Thank you um that helps frame um you know someone's understanding of what where this comes from and how you're helping you know the offender. So thanks for that. Now, the court mandated programs history historically have had a complicated reputation.
Speaker: Research shows mixed results and many offenders go through the motions without real change. So what does Street to Schools do differently and what does it to actually take to create lasting behavioral change in someone who is convicted and convicted of domestic abuse?
Speaker: This is a very important question and it really needs to be continued to be discussed. One of the things we found when we were developing the program is that every provider has a different way of measuring success.
Speaker: And one of the things is the courts and probation and parole, what they're looking at is they're looking at did someone complete a course? Because we know if someone completes a course, they're better able than to or it suggests that they will be violent free. But that's not where the transformation happens. The transformation happens when someone assumes humble accountability for their behavior.
Speaker: And then beyond assuming that humble accountability, they have to then change their attitude around violence. Most people who go into a program are going into the program because the court has mandated them. So they have this external consequence. The external consequence is, oh, I might go back to jail or i might lose my children or I'll lose my relationship. That's an external motivator for someone to take the course. We're looking for that internal motivator for change. Like, can you humbly accept that you hurt the person you love the most?
Speaker: That's a hard acceptance. And then can you change your attitude around that and your belief structure and your mindset? And then are you willing? See, it's one thing to know that you have to practice new skills. Then you have to commit to practicing those skills over time so that you become proficient at changing old behaviors.
Speaker: Yeah. And with your program, is there like a pass fail? What is the criteria? I know you just went over some of the the big things that you're looking for, but what is the criteria that you're looking for to tell the courts that this person has passed or failed? Like, what is the bench met the benchmark that you're looking for? Thank you for that question as well, because we We put into practice some scientific kind of measures. We have a Likert scale. So every week we measure how someone is doing on the expectations that we have in the course. So instead of a global, yes, they finished, every week we collect information on the variables of did they change? Are they humbly accounting? And we measure that by what they're saying to us and what their written work is telling us. and and live in what's happening in the class. Then has their attitude changed? So on it's on a Likert scale, on a scale of one to five, how have they changed over time? And then what we do is we take that and ah over time we collect the data and we get a mean score how they're improving in those three very important variables. The most important one is the skill. Are they using nonviolent skills in their life where previously they weren't? And so we can measure that by um by how they're performing in in the class and also how they're reporting on their essays. So we are highly at measured program and it's week by week. We know now based on this information that it's people are able to humbly account very quickly in a, in an environment where they feel safe and secure and where compassion is available to them. They can humbly account, but that doesn't mean that they've changed. That means that their, their awareness is there. Once their awareness is there, then we have to help them ah accept the fact that they have to take measures in order to change this behavior. And that's to change their thinking patterns and to change their behavior.
Speaker: Right. And we track it. We track it throughout the whole clo course. That's good. That's good to know. um It's something that, you know, is very helpful to explain when you have data um and you're looking at certain points of change.
Speaker: So I'm curious. let's Let's talk about children and how this affects them. So There are often hidden victims in domestic violence households, even when they're not physically harmed themselves. So what do you see in the offenders you work with when it comes to their understanding of what their behavior has done to their children? um And the second part of that question is, um how does that awareness or lack of it factor into the work that you do with them?
Speaker: Recently, um i was exploring and interviewing a lot of our clients who had gone through the program. We have an aftercare program and it's growing. So people who have finished the course want to continue because they find it so valuable. One of our major responses we get from people is, I wish I would have known this earlier. i wish I would have known that I was lovable, capable, and worthwhile earlier.
Speaker: Or I wish I would have known how that violence, um not only physical violence, but words and and emotions were a part of relationship. And so how it affects children. Children learn from the modeling of their parents. And even though... ah and a parent who lacks the ability to be humbly accountable says, well, I don't hit my children. I'm not being violent. But they have they have violent outbursts with their partner or their wife or their husband. And they they are modeling patterns for the child. And so the child becomes confused. The child says, OK, how do I negotiate relationship
Speaker: And that's when they start to bust out and emulate the behavior that has been modeled by the parent. And so you see it in our schools all all the time where children will are come in highly dysregulated into the classrooms. because they're coming from a highly dysregulated environment and they don't know how to negotiate that or put it into context. And it becomes very confusing for children to say, oh, in this environment, I'm supposed to be loving and compassionate. But in this environment at home, ah you know, people throw things or they yell and scream or they call it name call. So it becomes confusing for children and it develops the core patterns of how they develop their relationships in the future.
Speaker: Right. Absolutely. um now when it comes to the offenders or the, you know, the people, your clients that you're working with, um, how do you connect the dots between what they're doing and how it's affecting them Like, how do you explain what you just explained to me, to them in the work that you do?
Speaker: Well, it's it's one thing, because we're a cognitive behavioral. We want people to change their thinking and change their behavior. But it's also acceptance commitment. And it's all over ah lifting the cloak of denial away and coming to true awareness about self. So what we help them do is in every conversation, we ask them, how are you using the skills? What does humble accountability mean to you?
Speaker: You say you love this person, yet you're hurting this person. So we have a series of skills that we walk them through so that they can lift the veil of denial and really accept it. And and one of the most powerful things is when ah a client will say, you know what?
Speaker: I really have come to understand I've hurt the person I love the most. That's the moment of awareness that shifts people to, wow, I have to accept that that's part of me and what I've done. And I have to do something about it. Now, being aware doesn't mean they're taking the action. That's why they have to commit.
Speaker: They have to make a ah commitment to self. So we can lead them to the concepts. We can talk about this. We can have a very loving and compassionate environment. But it is up to the client every single time to embrace and to accept accountability and then accept responsibility for doing the change. And that's that's the shift that's so powerful for us. When we see a whole group of people, now you're in a group of people who are doing this, right? And so when one person makes the shift, it affects everyone in the group. And so they go, huh, maybe I have to look at it differently. Or they start calling each other out and saying, hey, look, man, you know,
Speaker: I can hear even in your voice in this group how offensive your tone is and how aggressive you are. And so maybe and and then we give them very core skills that you and I probably already know.
Speaker: Very core skills on how to manage behavior in a moment when you're feeling dysregulated. Yeah, this is great. So I have one more question for you, Healy, and that's for survivors um who are listening right now. um Maybe someone who's still in a relationship or someone who has left that relationship and trying to understand what has happened. What would you say to them about why people abuse, you know, from your point of view, whether change is truly possible and what accountability actually has to look like for it to mean anything at all?
Speaker: Well, to be clear, survivors are not responsible for someone else's behavior ever. To be very clear, survivors and children are not responsible for an offender's behavior.
Speaker: They're also not responsible to take care of the offender and to fix the offender or stay with them if they're unsafe or their children are unsafe.
Speaker: That's a very important boundary to keep. The responsibility rests solely with the offender. And the offender has to come to that humble accountability.
Speaker: What I encourage survivors to do is to assess their level of safety. and their level of security in an environment where an offender is present. Because most survivors love the offender.
Speaker: They don't get into situations like, you know, if they don't love the person and they think that part of what has to happen is they have to stay or they have a belief structure around, I don't leave my husband, I don't leave my wife. That's a very strong belief structure. But if you're not safe, I advocate for for people to protect themselves first. It is the sole responsibility and sole choice of the offender to do the changing. And even when of an offender changes, it doesn't mean the survivor has to accept or even forgive the offender, depending on the level of offense. That's their own journey.
Speaker: and it's it's And it's to be protected. A survivor's journey is to be protected. We also work with survivors, which means we don't stop at being just a survivor.
Speaker: We have to move to freedom. We have a course that is about from um victim to freedom because survivor is just a stepping stone to freedom. People who are free, they walk differently. They talk differently. They feel differently inside their own skin.
Speaker: right Survivors can get stuck on the fact that they they've survived it. you know, and the exhaustion of, and that becomes their story. The story becomes that i'm I'm a survivor. I survived this awful thing. Instead of saying that experience is so behind me that I am free. I walk free. I talk free. I experience life and I can experience life without identifying myself as an abused survivor. So we like to pull them to freedom. The same thing. It is our choice. But again, it goes back to the offender has got to take responsibility for their actions. But it means they have to take the denial away. They have to say, okay, I actually have the capability and have hurt the people I love the most. When they hit that particular juncture, things happen pretty quickly.
Speaker: Then it just becomes about rote learning. Like, did you practice the steps that we told you about putting someone first? I'll give you an example. In every conversation, Cynthia, you and I are equally important.
Speaker: You and I are important in this conversation. And you matter equal to me. And we need to keep that space between you and I. so safe and secure that I can love you and you can love me in the conversation. And it requires me to put you first. And it requires me to refrain from judgment, criticism, blame. It requires me to stand tall and not overstep when you're talking. I can't overstep in my mind. trying to come up with an answer before you've even completed your thought. I need to be able to give you that space and then respond with reframing it or restating it so you know I understood what you said.
Speaker: So you know that i I have listening, actively listening to you and caring about what you have to say. If we all could just put the other person first in a conversation, we would be miles ahead.
Speaker: Yeah, I hear you on that, Dr. Healy. Where can people find more information about you, your work? Do you have a website that we can share? Yes, please. I have my the work um is the.
Speaker: the access is S2SDVonline. And that's where if you need help, if you need, if you're a survivor and you need help, or if you are an offender, I like to keep, keep, catch people before they're into the court system. And I, to recognize they have a problem and come to us as a volunteer. That is the most successful program because um once you get into the court system, it is long and drawn out. You have your pretrial, then you have your trial, then you have your, you know, then you're held accountable. That could be up to a five to six year process. It affects your family, it affects your life, it affects your job, it affects everything. So if you know you have a propensity to hurt those people that you love, or if you don't even, if you haven't accepted it yet, but people around you have told you,
Speaker: and you're not sure, come join us, s2sdvonline.com. And then about me personally, it's just denisehealy.com.
Speaker: You can find out about the work I do, the work I've been doing. And um I think this is vital work for everyone. We all have free agency to make choice. but the choice is up to the offender to to make this. If everyone could take that responsibility, I think we would see a decrease in the amount of domestic violence we're expecting in the ah nation today.
Speaker: Yeah. Thank you so much for your time today and for sharing your insight. um This is something that I haven't covered before, so I learned quite a bit from you as well. Thank you, Dr. Healy. Thank you so much for having me. It's a really important topic.
