Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to season four of the Guardians of Hope podcast, where we empower the voices of medical, legal, tech, nonprofit, and mental health professionals dedicated to helping children and families. We are here to offer resources and information for anyone who wants to make a child's life better and richer. We need it now more than ever.
Speaker: Welcome everyone. So the word narcissist has never been more present in our culture. It fills TikTok feeds, Reddit threads, and late night conversations between friends trying to make sense of relationships that left them feeling confused,
Speaker: diminished and unsure of themselves. The Reddit community um raised by narcissists alone has over 750,000 members and entire communities have formed online around the shared experience of surviving narcissistic abuse.
Speaker: But for many people, the most painful and complicated version of this experience didn't begin in a romantic relationship. It actually began at home with a parent.
Speaker: Growing up with a narcissistic parent reshapes a child's entire understanding of love, worth, and belonging. The family system quietly organizes itself around the narcissist's needs, assigning roles that children don't choose but carry for decades.
Speaker: For example, the golden child is elevated and praised, the scapegoat is blamed and criticized, and the enabler keeps the peace at their own expense.
Speaker: Siblings tend to become hostile and rivalry is amplified to toxic levels. Those wounds don't disappear when children grow up. They follow them into their adult relationships, their sense of self, and often relationships with each other.
Speaker: Today, we're joined by Randy Fine, an internationally renowned trauma-informed narcissistic abuse recovery coach. She's a pioneer in the narcissistic abuse awareness movement, an author of multiple books, including Close Encounters of the Worst Kind and her newest work, The Post-Narcissistic Reality Hangover.
Speaker: Randy is also a survivor herself. For more than 15 years, has helped survivors in over 180 countries find the language for what happened to them and a path back to themselves.
Speaker: Randy, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Oh, hi, Cynthia. Thank you for having me. It's so great to be with you today. And I'm really excited to talk about this. So why don't we dive right in? ah In my intro, I talked about how narcissism is everywhere right now. TikTok, Reddit, dinner table conversations. But there is a meaningful difference between someone using the word casually and someone who actually grew up in a narcissistic family system.
Speaker: how do you help people understand what narcissistic abuse really is and why does that distinction matter so much for healing okay great really good question let me first talk about what a narcissist is what narcissistic abuse is versus narcissism because this is where i think people get really confused when you hear about a person being a narcissist, um, we tend to just think of that as somebody that has an overblown ego or typically narcissistic in their persona.
Speaker: But when we're talking about this kind of narcissism, we're talking about somebody who has a personality disorder, and this is a very serious personality disorder. It's also called pathological narcissism.
Speaker: So, They say that narcissism exists on a spectrum. That would be healthy narcisism narcissism on one end of the spectrum and on the other end of the spectrum would be pathological narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder.
Speaker: And these are people that use psychological warfare and mind control on others. So they don't have normal relationships with people. Um, they use brainwashing, brainwashing, um, coercive control on other people. Um, they attack people verbally, physically, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, financially.
Speaker: They learn where people are particularly vulnerable and they use those things against them. um This is a very serious form of abuse. These people are in the same category as psychopaths and sociopaths. They have no empathy.
Speaker: They have no ability to love. They have no ability to have a relationship in a normal way.
Speaker: it's interesting that you so it's great to have that definition and background um as we move on to into the conversation so you've described the narcissistic family as a system one that organizes itself around the narcissist needs and assign roles to every family member i'd like to walk through what those roles are Some of them can be the golden child, the scapegoat, the enabler, and it it doesn't even have to be a child. It could be the parent playing one of these roles as well, or in one of these roles. Can you help me and my audience understand what each child and family member is experiencing, even the one who appears to be favored? Okay.
Speaker: That's also a really good question. This is so important to understand because it really helps you to to identify the fact that you are in a narcissistic family system. So in these family systems, there's only one golden child. The golden child is assigned and it doesn't matter what the pecking order it is. It doesn't matter how whether what if that child's the oldest or the middle or the youngest, it it really doesn't matter.
Speaker: um The narcissistic parent will assign one child this This child is what the parent sees as the mirror image of perfection of themselves. So this child can do absolutely no wrong. there's um if that child does something wrong, then the narcissistic parent feels as if they've done something wrong because they are so enmeshed um and mirroring that child so much that they have to have this image of perfection.
Speaker: So when you have a golden child, um that child's role is to keep that parent happy. And the child loses themselves, ah you know, whether it's male or female, they lose themselves in this role because they have so far to fall if they don't please that parent.
Speaker: you have, um, there will always be a scapegoat child. Now children can move around in roles, but there's only going to be one golden child. There can be more than one scapegoat child and a golden child can play a scapegoat child at times, but there will never be more than one golden child. But a scapegoat child is basically the family dumpster.
Speaker: So a narcissist doesn't have the ability to accept that anything about them is wrong. Okay, so when things don't go great in their life, they don't go great in the family, whatever it is where they need to shed the blame or shed negativity, they have to have a child that is sort of the dumpster for for that.
Speaker: That's the scapegoat child. So that child will be blamed for everything that goes wrong with the parent and family system. They can do no right.
Speaker: And they have they always have to be that dumping ground. Sometimes there is an invisible child that's really not seen, not heard. That child tries to shrink themselves to be as small as possible. They just don't want to be seen. um and then the other parent, if there's another parent in the family, that parent will play the role of the enabler.
Speaker: They support what that narcissistic parent does. I understand. Now, what happens when someone marries into this family? How does that change the dynamic depending on who they marry, I guess, right?
Speaker: Right. Well, a narcissistic parent only wants compliance. So if if a child brings someone into the family that is very compliant, that really praises and kisses up to that narcissistic parent, and they will be well accepted. if you If a child brings somebody into the family that is kind of stoic or not really, you know, doesn't really um make that other make the narcissistic parent feel special,
Speaker: they will be ostracized. um and They will be treated like they're not family, they'll be treated poorly. um They may be, they may tell their child not to marry that person or they may make up lies about the person, you know, they're so gay or they're cheaters or they make up stories so that ah the child will not marry yeah a person.
Speaker: So, I want to ask you about a common a common assumption about the scapegoat since we just talked about the roles. So a lot of people assume that the scapegoat has it the hardest. But according to my research, um the golden child often carries deep, less visible wounds. What do people misunderstand about both of these roles? And what do adult children in each position need to hear?
Speaker: Okay, so the scapegoat child is the one that's most obviously abused in the family. So you would think that they would carry most of the scars, but this child growing up, no matter what they do, they're never going to get it right. They're damned if they do, they're damned if they don't. So they tend to be more outspoken and more honest about where they stand it in that family system. And they usually fare much better in life as adults.
Speaker: They're usually more successful, more independent. The golden child is the one that carries the worst scars because they are highly objectified, meaning that They are never valued for who they are, but for what they can bring to that parent.
Speaker: So that child learns to build their world around approval and pleasing. okay um And they know, as I said earlier, they have far to fall ah if they don't please that parent.
Speaker: because they fall from really the throne all the way down if they don't please that parent. As long as they're doing that, they can stay in that role, but the minute they do something wrong or make that parent look bad, they fall from grace. And so they grow up with a lot of self-esteem issues. um They grow up with severe issues of pleasing.
Speaker: They always feel like they need this external reinforcement, you know, like everybody's got to tell them they're wonderful because they don't really have that inside. Yeah. um What does that backlash look like? and this I'm just doing a quick follow up to that from the parent.
Speaker: Like if they fall from grace or they do something to make that parent upset, what what what would be like the repercussions? Oh my gosh, um it could be anything. They they will be called names. um the Disapproval. just you know When you're raised by a narcissistic parent, you become really aware of every facial expression body language everything like that it doesn't take much for that parent to let that child know that that they're being disapproved of but um that child will feel like they've let the parent down and they will feel guilty they will feel bad about themselves um they will feel shame so you know it could be any number of things but rep being reprimanded or being told you're not who i thought you were you know you're
Speaker: You know, I thought you were so wonderful. I would have given my life for you. Now look what you're doing to me. The parents always kind of saying that everything's reflecting on them. Whatever you do is making them look bad.
Speaker: So that child doesn't want to feel like that. Yeah, absolutely not. Who does, really? um Why don't we talk about your personal experience, Randy? um ah You um actually grew up with a narcissistic mother and wrote about it in your memoir.
Speaker: How did your own lived experience shape the way you understand what these children carry into adulthood? And if anything that surprised you, what was it with all of your experience?
Speaker: Right. So I was the one in the family that was the least obviously abused. I had two sisters. ah They were called names. They were treated horribly. It was just so obvious. And there was a lot of turmoil and yelling and scolding and things like that in the family.
Speaker: I was immune immune from that personally, although I did witness it all, which was very hard on me. who But, um, Growing up in this kind of family, it it caused so many problems for me as a young adult and then further into my adulthood. My relationships were terrible.
Speaker: um I always chose relationships that with people that were sort of, that had problems. I was like i was very codependent.
Speaker: um I chose relationships with people that I needed to fix. I didn't have any boundary system whatsoever. I had no very low self-esteem. um i was very reliant on external reinforcement. I didn't have any of the tools within myself, which is something that children growing up in these families, really all of them were deprived of a lot of the tools that we need to function as healthy adults.
Speaker: here So let's talk about a sibling dynamic. when ah you know siblings like the golden child and the scapegoat are pitted against each other a dynamic doesn't automatically end when they become adults right um so what does that healing look like for adult siblings trying to make sense of those relationships can you give some examples um and some tools that siblings can use right well it it actually tends to get worse as you get older not better
Speaker: um In a narcissistic family system, there is a tactic called triangulation that's used by the narcissistic parent. And the triangulation is the way that that parent controls communication within the family. So what they do is they make sure that it's ah that they're talking to each person separately and that they keep them from collaborating because collaboration could mean overthrow of the of the parent. So they tell each child different things with a different spin on it. And they tell children things about each other.
Speaker: They turn the children about each other with very subtle things like, you know, your sister, she's a little off, you know, she's just a little off. These kind of things all through your life, you hear it, but it's never said in front of the other child. So you don't really know what your siblings are are hearing about you and as you get older so the point the point is that that every child ends up in their own corner trying to survive however they can in these family systems um but you're also told in this unit that family is everything so it's kind of it's a mind game that's played with you because you're supposed
Speaker: your parents, you're supposed to be loyal to your siblings. So you grow up thinking that you have this very strong family system and that there's all this loyalty. And you find as you get older that it's really not there. It's very superficial because there's no boundaries in these families. There is enmeshment. So nobody really knows where they let off and the other person begins.
Speaker: When one child decides that they've had enough of this family system and they want to heal and they want to rise up out of it, What will happen is the other siblings will dive in deeper to the dysfunction and turn on the child who's trying to heal.
Speaker: And in my experience, only one sibling rises up out of this. Everyone else dives deeper and gets deeper into the dysfunction. um I've never seen that to fail.
Speaker: Yeah. So. What do you tell, you know, your clients or the people that you help when they're in, when they're in this process, like they're at a point where they want out of this family system.
Speaker: It's not easy. It's isolating. You feel like you lose a sense of support. Um, you know, you, you basically are cutting ties with a system or a group of people that you've known your whole life. So,
Speaker: How do you help people who are making this decision and going through this? Right. Well, anybody going through this needs tremendous amount of support with somebody that's experienced that knows how to guide them through it because there's a lot of guilt involved because we,
Speaker: When we hear the word mother, we hear the word father, um we have we associate these feelings with it. We associate the loyalty and things like that. So there's a whole lot of guilt feelings about trying to pull yourself away from the dysfunction, especially because there is so much enmeshment between everybody. It's very hard to distinguish yourself. but Healing from narcissistic abuse is a solo journey. It's something that requires that you have to do building of all the foundation that you did not get growing up in this environment. there's There's so many things that we lose growing up with a narcissistic parent that we get to be adults and we really don't have those tools in order to be able to function healthily in a healthy way. So, um,
Speaker: Growing up, I mean, so healing from this is about developing that foundation of boundaries, self-esteem, learning to internally validate these kinds of things, um and really being so true and loving to yourself and not worrying about the rest of the family and what other people are gonna say, because as you begin to heal,
Speaker: you will get a lot of rejection from family members and it will get worse and worse and worse to the point where you will be alienated and isolated from the family system. So it is a solo journey, but it is so worth it because healing is so important when you've been raised like this.
Speaker: um You will not function in life in a healthy way if you do not heal from it. And so it's worth it. And personally, i had to leave my entire family of origin behind.
Speaker: um And it was very painful. ah Both of my parents, both of my sisters, I lost a sister passed away and I was not allowed to see her when she was ill. I was not invited to the funeral. um there's There's a whole lot that i did not get to do, but I'm healthy and thriving.
Speaker: So exactly it's been a solo journey, but it's not an easy one and you need tremendous amount of support for that. Yeah, it's a necessary one because if you want to stop those patterns from happening again with your children and their children, I think it's important to pause and take a step back.
Speaker: So it is really important. It absolutely is. Yeah. Randy, I have one more question for you. um and it's in it's in line with what we were just talking about. You know, for someone who's just starting to recognize these patterns in their own family, um maybe they've had their own child. Maybe they're in a they had a milestone in life where they realized that they just can't put things together like it doesn't make sense they're they're realizing that this is something that is happening and they need to address what are some of the things that they should know um from your expertise and how where do they start so um a really good place to start you know most people start looking online um watching podcasts and videos reading books and things like that
Speaker: ah It's great to get that information and most people want to soak up as much as possible in the beginning. There are a lot of practitioners out there doing this work. um Not everybody is going to give you the best information. So I would find a trusted source, somebody that's words, writings really resonate with your experience and you really feel like everything that they're saying is trustworthy to you and it's it's resonating with you. um If you hear somebody and they're saying something that just doesn't feel right, I wouldn't listen to that person, I wouldn't follow them. um The other thing that people tend to do in the beginning is ah go to support groups, chat rooms, things like that about this. This is very good in the beginning because it gives you validation for what you've experienced because very often
Speaker: you're at the same time you're recognizing it you're also questioning it you're also saying well maybe this isn't really happening so in the beginning it gives you lots of validation once you know what you've what you're actually dealing with I advise that you get out of these support groups and chat rooms because they become dumping grounds for people who just want to complain about their their families or their situation and um It can bring you down and it's not going to move you forward. What is really going to move you forward is working with a recovery ah person, somebody who specializes in this like I do it. I'm i'm a trauma informed narcissistic abuse recovery coach.
Speaker: um My goal is to help each individual move through this and get to a healthy place. um and give you really healthy information. I have lots and lots of references out there. i have um books on the subject. I have a website with, you know, over 100 articles and I'm always posting. I have a newsletter that I send out every week to keep people up to date.
Speaker: So I would say find somebody that you really trust, somebody that's been doing this a long time. ah And somebody that has lived it because you cannot teach this to somebody who has not lived it.
Speaker: It's way too strange. Yeah, it is an interesting dynamic for sure. um Where can people find more resources about you and your website and your books, Randi? Right. So ah my website is mynamerandifine.com.
Speaker: RandyFind.com. And there is so many resources on there. If you go there, ah there's there's quizzes. There's all different kinds of things that you can do. And all my books. I mean, this is um this is my recent book, The Post-Narcissistic Reality Hangover. This is available Amazon. This is my bestseller, Close Encounters of the Worst Kind, also available on Amazon. um i have a workbook associated with that.
Speaker: This is the workbook list encounters of the worst kind. And then this one, my screen just got weird. um This is the memoir where i where I tell my personal story and how it really affects you and how it ripples out into your life as you grow up.
Speaker: Yeah, Randy, thank you so much for your time today. This was a really informative conversation and I'm hoping it helps a lot of people who've been through um what you've been through and is going through the journey um to heal. So Randy, thank you so much for your time. Thank you. It's it's been wonderful to be with you.
Speaker: Thank you.
