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The Cost of Being Likeable with Erisa Ojimba
6 Plays30 days ago
Wrapping up our month of strong female voices, we have HR leader, Erisa Ojimba.
In this episode, we sit down with Erisa and unpack the career moments, leadership influences and hard-earned lessons that shaped how she shows up today. We talk about the traps leaders fall into when they prioritize harmony over credibility and why chasing likeability can quietly limit impact and authority.
This is a candid conversation about building trust, earning respect, and leading with clarity, even when it means being uncomfortable. Because in leadership, being liked isn’t the goal. Being trusted is.
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Theme
00:00:10
Speaker
Welcome to Fractional Frequency, our take on talent, people trends, and the reality of building up businesses in an economy that keeps rewriting the rules.
00:00:18
Speaker
I'm Amy Crook, founder of Strativist.
00:00:21
Speaker
And I'm Erin Todis, Managing Director of Talent Delivery, which basically means I live in the universe of finding the right people to make an impact for our clients fast.
00:00:30
Speaker
Around here, we talk about the real side of HR and talent, what works, what absolutely doesn't, and how to build teams that can carry a business, not drag it down.
00:00:40
Speaker
The breakdown trends share the behind the scenes of scaling a consultancy from zero and probably overshare a little because that's where the good lessons live.
00:00:49
Speaker
So whether you're building, hiring, leading, or just trying to keep your company profitable, you're in the right place.
00:00:55
Speaker
This is Fractional Frequency.
00:00:57
Speaker
Let's get to it.
00:01:07
Speaker
It feels like it's Friday, but it's not.
00:01:13
Speaker
It's only Tuesday.
00:01:14
Speaker
I know.
00:01:15
Speaker
I know.
00:01:15
Speaker
What are you going to do?
Meet Arisa and Her Leadership Perspective
00:01:19
Speaker
But something that is definitely going to turn my day right around is that we have a guest joining us today as part of our continued homage to women in leadership and leadership.
00:01:36
Speaker
And we have someone with us today whose career journey reflects both her intelligence and self-awareness.
00:01:43
Speaker
I have had the privilege of working with this person at Glassdoor.
00:01:48
Speaker
And now again, as part of one of my fractional clients, Game Time, she brings thoughtful perspectives to leadership.
00:01:57
Speaker
She's able to influence like leadership.
00:02:00
Speaker
I've never seen before and she's really attuned to the realities that many professionals face as they kind of grow into their voice and their authority.
00:02:12
Speaker
Arisa, welcome to the Strativist podcast.
00:02:18
Speaker
Thank you.
00:02:20
Speaker
I think your induction was, I'm glad it came from you because I chuckle when you were talking.
00:02:30
Speaker
Like, am I?
00:02:34
Speaker
I don't think so.
00:02:36
Speaker
Did I mention humble?
00:02:38
Speaker
Humble.
00:02:39
Speaker
humble also um I just want to say like one of my funniest things um of my time at Glassdoor was when you joined and you know I hadn't had a meeting with you yet but people were like I'm just not sure how to how to read a reset and I was like oh I gotta meet this person um and I just
00:03:04
Speaker
thought you were hilarious, super sharp, your ability to kind of assess the situation, not going like all guns blazing, but just ask the right questions to get people thinking about things the right way was just so impressive.
00:03:21
Speaker
And I'm glad that we, even through the little lull of us not working together, we kept in touch and
00:03:30
Speaker
I'm very grateful to benefit from your continued wisdom and your very, very good sense of humor.
00:03:39
Speaker
Well, thank you.
00:03:40
Speaker
I have to say.
00:03:42
Speaker
and I say this not because we're doing a podcast, but you are one of the, when I think about a head of town acquisition, you epitomize what that is.
00:03:53
Speaker
And you do it in such like very accessible, you know, you don't get too technical.
00:04:00
Speaker
It's just any lay person could understand, like, this is the strategy, this is the direction that we're going to.
Arisa's Career Journey and Data-Driven HR
00:04:07
Speaker
Yeah, you have to keep it simple.
00:04:10
Speaker
Like if you, and I think the process is simple.
00:04:13
Speaker
Like hiring talent is simple, but doing it well takes a lot of effort.
00:04:20
Speaker
Yes, I agree.
00:04:21
Speaker
And you do it well.
00:04:23
Speaker
Thank you.
00:04:24
Speaker
Thank you.
00:04:25
Speaker
Okay, well enough about me.
00:04:27
Speaker
Let's talk about you.
00:04:29
Speaker
Let's start by talking through your career journey.
00:04:35
Speaker
When did you first start thinking intentionally about your career path?
00:04:44
Speaker
I think I always...
00:04:52
Speaker
data oriented, which is strange because the business that we are in, people often would say, but you have to be a people person.
00:05:05
Speaker
And so because I'm a very sort of data, I'm an introverted person as well.
00:05:15
Speaker
it was always my, like whatever I was gonna do, that it had to be something where I could lean into data, but also not become a sort of data analyst, if that makes sense.
00:05:30
Speaker
And so when I started my career,
00:05:34
Speaker
I stumbled into HR, but it was in compensation.
00:05:38
Speaker
And the data part of that resonated with me.
00:05:42
Speaker
I'm like, oh, I thought it was just about people.
00:05:50
Speaker
Turns out it is a little bit about people, but it's also about data.
00:05:56
Speaker
So yeah, that's what I started to really, I was a little bit more intentional about it, but also recognize that whatever I do, using data to inform and help people achieve whatever it is that they wanted to achieve was sort of like the place that I leaned in the most.
00:06:20
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's, and that's, that is it.
00:06:23
Speaker
Like a lot of people,
00:06:25
Speaker
that I know that are in the HR space are introverted, don't, you know, want to be front and center or, and they don't, you know, going to a big, busy, like event or party is not their idea of a good time.
00:06:42
Speaker
And yet they end up in a position where they're, um,
00:06:46
Speaker
quietly like supporting people's growth people's ambitions um make helping businesses uh move forward and i think maybe it's because there's this outdated perception of what hr is you know it's not like we sit there running um
00:07:08
Speaker
you know, little personnel reports and, you know, making sure that people's time cards are correct or whatever it might be.
00:07:15
Speaker
It's, it is more of a strategic, strategic tool for businesses now.
00:07:22
Speaker
You know, performance of people is so crucial to being successful and having the right processes and systems in place to support that is like a no brainer.
00:07:34
Speaker
So I think, you know,
00:07:36
Speaker
I think a lot of people I know that are in HR are self-described antisocials.
00:07:48
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Some of us revel in it.
00:07:50
Speaker
We know that we are.
00:07:53
Speaker
And we just kind of like, yep, that's us.
00:07:58
Speaker
Yeah, it's not that we're like sitting there being prim and proper at the work event.
00:08:02
Speaker
It's just we don't want to talk to you.
00:08:04
Speaker
Exactly.
00:08:08
Speaker
Nothing personal.
00:08:09
Speaker
Nothing personal.
00:08:10
Speaker
Don't want to talk to anyone.
00:08:12
Speaker
Okay, so let's go into kind of when you first stepped into leadership.
Leadership Styles and Influence Challenges
00:08:19
Speaker
What experiences shaped how you approached being in a more senior role?
00:08:27
Speaker
Well, I think, so I would say I've been very fortunate in my career where I've been mentored by people who've sort of taken an interest in my career, but also willing to invest in executive coaches.
00:08:48
Speaker
And so very early on in my career, I realized that
00:08:57
Speaker
I have a style, but I shouldn't be afraid to acknowledge my style.
00:09:04
Speaker
And I shouldn't be afraid to sort of share the way I show up.
00:09:14
Speaker
And so as I was sort of growing or evolving in my career and sort of moving into a leadership role, by the time I got there, I...
00:09:27
Speaker
I had an idea of what good leadership was and what it wasn't.
00:09:34
Speaker
And to sort of acknowledge my flaws.
00:09:38
Speaker
And so the first team that I led was a team in Europe.
00:09:47
Speaker
I lived in the US at the time, so I traveled a lot.
00:09:51
Speaker
And one of the things that I learned very early on in my career is that
00:09:56
Speaker
In my role, people make assumptions about an HR lead relative to the business leader that they're partnering with and the level of influence that you have or do not have with that leader.
00:10:13
Speaker
And so I was...
00:10:18
Speaker
Astutely aware of that.
00:10:20
Speaker
And so I would always tell people in front of the leader that I was supporting that my job is to influence.
00:10:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:32
Speaker
But ultimately it's the leader's decision.
00:10:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:37
Speaker
And I try not to ever use somebody else's position in power to influence what I wanted.
00:10:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:46
Speaker
So I would rarely say something like, if I wanted something, I wouldn't say, well, Amy wants us to do this.
00:10:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:10:58
Speaker
If I couldn't influence that person or that group, I would then go back and look at the data that I had to say, what is it about the data that I have that is getting in the way of this person making a decision?
00:11:15
Speaker
Yeah, and that's such a great point.
00:11:18
Speaker
I think it's very easy to lean on internal stakeholders and leaders to propel your point of view around an organization.
00:11:37
Speaker
And if you aren't able to influence change independently,
00:11:45
Speaker
that's not real leadership.
00:11:49
Speaker
Yeah.
00:11:50
Speaker
Cause no one's following you.
00:11:52
Speaker
They're following a threat.
00:11:55
Speaker
Correct.
00:11:55
Speaker
And that's not healthy or recommended.
00:12:01
Speaker
And you, you kind of mentioned this a little bit in your, in, in the beginning about like not being afraid, um, to show up authentically.
00:12:12
Speaker
Were there any moments that forced you to rethink how you showed up professionally at all?
00:12:21
Speaker
So I remember very early on where you, like, there were these leaders who happened to be men, but they had a very strong point of view.
00:12:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:12:39
Speaker
And sometimes you would debate people.
00:12:42
Speaker
because you're trying to influence somebody.
00:12:44
Speaker
And sometimes you get very sort of caught up in the moment.
00:12:49
Speaker
And I remember as I was, I had this executive coach and the leader and the executive coach said to me, you know what, Arisa, you have to ask yourself two questions.
00:13:03
Speaker
Why are you emotionally invested in this particular issue?
00:13:07
Speaker
At the end of the day, it's a business.
00:13:11
Speaker
You know, if it happens, it happens like it's thousands of employees.
00:13:15
Speaker
So your point of view is a point of view, but not the point of view.
00:13:21
Speaker
That's one.
00:13:22
Speaker
And then the second was that you, these leaders that you are trying to emulate, that you perceive as being great leaders, they're not great leaders, right?
00:13:38
Speaker
It's not because they're of their gender.
00:13:40
Speaker
It's none of that.
00:13:41
Speaker
It's, you know, they're trying to get things done.
00:13:45
Speaker
There are ways that they could do it that people are not, don't feel like they have to have a debate.
00:13:51
Speaker
They don't feel like they have to be right.
00:13:54
Speaker
And so step back a bit and trying to figure out like, what problem are you really trying to solve?
00:14:01
Speaker
Why is it important that a key stakeholder has to even agree with you?
00:14:09
Speaker
And at the end of the day, if they agree with you or not, your job is just to lay out the options.
00:14:15
Speaker
You can tell them the options that you would prefer that they take, but you don't need to, it's not, if they don't take your advice, it isn't something personal.
00:14:29
Speaker
Because I think oftentimes as you're building credibility with a leader, when they,
00:14:36
Speaker
they don't take it or they don't like it, or it may come across as they're dismissing you.
00:14:41
Speaker
You can take it personally.
00:14:43
Speaker
It's like, oh, they don't like what I said.
00:14:44
Speaker
They don't like how I said it.
00:14:45
Speaker
I didn't have the right data.
00:14:47
Speaker
And it's just, you know what?
00:14:50
Speaker
They've heard what you've had to say and they're willing to go in a different direction.
00:14:55
Speaker
And that is okay because that's their job.
00:14:58
Speaker
Their job is to listen and take everything that you say.
00:15:04
Speaker
And so...
00:15:06
Speaker
I think it just informed how I showed up.
00:15:11
Speaker
Yeah, my more will, like more open and less I'm going to die on every hill.
00:15:17
Speaker
Exactly.
00:15:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:18
Speaker
Yeah.
00:15:19
Speaker
That's something I also learned pretty early on in leadership is that
00:15:25
Speaker
I can feel passionately about something, but that doesn't really matter.
00:15:30
Speaker
If I can't make a compelling enough case to influence the, the direction that we go in, that I didn't do it.
00:15:41
Speaker
I didn't make, I didn't influence it.
00:15:43
Speaker
You know, like I can go back and try different approaches or I can just accept that, you know, that's the position that they're in to make that, to make that decision.
00:15:53
Speaker
And yeah,
00:15:54
Speaker
Not everything is like, in fact, most things are not life or death.
00:16:01
Speaker
Pretty much everything in corporate is not life or death.
00:16:04
Speaker
And I was going to say, if you also think about how, when you have somebody reporting to you, right?
00:16:13
Speaker
And they're trying to influence you.
00:16:16
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:16
Speaker
And you were sort of, you may agree to disagree.
00:16:21
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:23
Speaker
I think you also learn about how that feels.
00:16:27
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:28
Speaker
When you are the recipient of that.
00:16:32
Speaker
And so I think it's sort of recognizing that at the end of the day, people are just trying to do their best and get to the right result.
00:16:47
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:47
Speaker
And to the extent that whoever's,
00:16:51
Speaker
whoever you're working with or partnering with, that's the intention that they have.
00:16:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:16:57
Speaker
And not to read anything more or less into it.
00:17:00
Speaker
It's, I heard you, that's great.
00:17:01
Speaker
We're going to move in this direction.
00:17:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:17:05
Speaker
Assuming good intent is a definite one to carry.
00:17:11
Speaker
Otherwise you can end up acting a little bit wounded for no, for no real reason.
00:17:15
Speaker
And, you know, just talking about how you lead other people,
00:17:21
Speaker
I think when I look back on the managers that I've managed, I kind of prided myself in bringing people in that was so different to me.
00:17:33
Speaker
And I had really different perspectives and thought about things in different ways.
00:17:40
Speaker
Because...
00:17:41
Speaker
If I just sit there with people that are like, yeah, that's great.
00:17:46
Speaker
Yeah, we should do that.
00:17:48
Speaker
Nothing's really getting better.
00:17:50
Speaker
It's not a company.
00:17:51
Speaker
It's just a cosign of like my own ideas.
00:17:54
Speaker
And I don't really need that.
00:17:56
Speaker
What I need is people around me that have a point of view that's different so that we can get to an outcome that's better than what it would have been if it was just me thinking about it.
00:18:11
Speaker
And I think that's really, really was hard for me to get my head around like upwards.
00:18:19
Speaker
It was easy for me to do for the folks that I managed because that's how I like to operate.
00:18:26
Speaker
I love honesty and transparency.
00:18:29
Speaker
And if you tell me this idea is garbage, then I'm gonna listen to you because I don't wanna make it, I don't wanna do something that's not gonna work.
00:18:38
Speaker
um so let's figure it out so when I was having those conversations as I moved up in my career with like c-level people and you're explaining like why something is not necessarily the right pathway forward and they choose to go that way anyway I was like
00:18:59
Speaker
why would you do that?
00:19:02
Speaker
I'm just like, perplexed.
00:19:05
Speaker
And but you, you just have to learn that, you know what, the world will keep on spinning.
00:19:12
Speaker
It's, it's okay, you, it's your role to offer advice and guidance.
00:19:19
Speaker
And, you know, you'd be remiss in your role not to offer your point of view.
00:19:23
Speaker
But if it's not listened to, or if it's not
00:19:26
Speaker
in line with what the bigger plan is that you might not even be privy to.
00:19:32
Speaker
You just have to accept it and keep going.
00:19:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:19:38
Speaker
So my last question for this section is kind of along that same lines around leadership, but just as you've grown in your career and the decisions that you've made, how has the definition of success changed for you?
00:20:03
Speaker
I think.
00:20:08
Speaker
So, and maybe because I am introverted and so I have this kind of weird way of looking at things.
Defining Success and Healthy Work Environments
00:20:15
Speaker
One of the things I realized is success for me is being satisfied in the work that I've done.
00:20:22
Speaker
Like a sense of accomplishment.
00:20:24
Speaker
It's less about the title.
00:20:31
Speaker
And I don't want to even say money, but sometimes if you...
00:20:40
Speaker
of doing things that mentally are not healthy for you in an environment that's not healthy for you yeah yeah it's almost like you have an illness right so you have all this this is me like let's say I'm a gazillionaire and I have all this money but I have something that ells me I don't get to enjoy it as much and so I realized very like not
00:21:08
Speaker
too early but there was a point in my career where I just said I want to be around people who are smarter than me who would challenge me but where I can have fun yeah and so I made choices sometimes I'm like was that really not really a smart move but then I love the people that I work with and so I've always been a
00:21:35
Speaker
if something isn't working for me, I quickly will remove myself from that situation.
00:21:42
Speaker
I don't like, I don't, especially if I feel like there's, I'm not going to have the impact that I want, right?
00:21:54
Speaker
And so I don't, I sort of just move on.
00:21:57
Speaker
I don't sort of,
00:21:59
Speaker
I don't get to the point where I'm sort of constantly whinging over the fact of one thing versus the other.
00:22:11
Speaker
It is what it is, but I like the people and that makes up for everything else.
00:22:16
Speaker
And so I always, oftentimes I'll have people
00:22:22
Speaker
come to me and they're either upset with their role or their job and I'll say why don't you just leave I know it's like they've never even considered that as an option why I'm like well every time I talk to you you're not happy you cannot be emotionally it's not good for you it's not like
00:22:48
Speaker
You know what I mean?
00:22:49
Speaker
I think part of being a leader also is sort of knowing when to extricate yourself from situations where you're no longer adding value.
00:23:00
Speaker
And so I do think, and I used to say this all the time to people is you need to spend some time being introspective because when you think, when you spend time thinking about yourself a little bit,
00:23:15
Speaker
you then start to think about the choices and the trade-offs that you're willing to make to be effective in your role.
00:23:25
Speaker
Because I do think if you add a man, a leader who'd always say, if you don't say it, you'll act it out or something to that effect.
00:23:40
Speaker
And I do believe that is true.
00:23:44
Speaker
Like I've worked with a leader once where she was on a Monday, I don't know what happened on the weekend, but, and this was very early on my career, on a Monday she'd always be upset.
00:23:57
Speaker
And then it was every, you know, it's like, I don't know if I want to do that.
00:24:02
Speaker
And I love the group of analysts that we worked and we would joke about it.
00:24:07
Speaker
But after a while, we're like, I don't think this is healthy for us.
00:24:10
Speaker
I mean, we could get together on the weekends.
00:24:13
Speaker
We don't need to have this job.
00:24:18
Speaker
And so it was kind of, we all kind of left.
00:24:21
Speaker
But it was, I didn't, I think, I don't know if this leader understood that clearly either she didn't like the, whatever the issue was, it was impacting the entire team.
00:24:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:24:34
Speaker
And I do think there are times like if she just stepped back and just said, you know, I don't want to do this anymore.
00:24:40
Speaker
These people piss me off.
00:24:47
Speaker
And I love what you said, Arisa, about is this healthy for me?
Self-Awareness and Leadership Choices
00:24:51
Speaker
And that the answer to that question could change over time because people grow and companies change and getting to sort of a maturity point where you can be honest with yourself about whether this situation is serving you and vice versa is
00:25:09
Speaker
I think that's a really powerful point in someone's leadership journey.
00:25:15
Speaker
I love that.
00:25:17
Speaker
I want to shift us a little bit.
00:25:18
Speaker
We've been talking about sort of openness and the art of influence and something that comes up in conversations for Amy and I is that people a lot of times will consider that
00:25:34
Speaker
sometimes on their path to leadership or in a leadership role, that they feel torn between being likable with their peers and stakeholders and being credible.
00:25:44
Speaker
And so I want to sort of pose that question to you and ask if you would share a little bit about how you reconcile that balance internally for yourself.
00:25:54
Speaker
And perhaps, you know, if you've counseled business leaders on that topic, what are some of the pearls of wisdom that you might share?
00:26:03
Speaker
Not sure of that personal wisdom.
00:26:05
Speaker
I would say for me is credibility.
00:26:10
Speaker
I'd prefer that you perceive me as somebody who is credible.
00:26:16
Speaker
And that may evolve into likability.
00:26:24
Speaker
But because I'm not a... This may sound weird.
00:26:29
Speaker
Because I'm not a people person per se...
00:26:35
Speaker
I don't go into situations hoping that you would like me.
00:26:44
Speaker
Actually, I sometimes go into situations thinking, I don't know if these people even want me around.
00:26:50
Speaker
And so how do I demonstrate value?
00:27:00
Speaker
so that they know that any amount of time they spend for me will be something worth their time.
00:27:08
Speaker
Yeah.
00:27:11
Speaker
I love that way of thinking about it.
00:27:13
Speaker
And I think that that could help someone get out of their head too, as I even consider meeting various stakeholders and leaders for the first time.
00:27:23
Speaker
Sometimes you can feel intimidated either by someone's background or what you've heard about their style,
00:27:29
Speaker
or where they come from.
00:27:30
Speaker
But if you can set that aside and think instead about how can I add value to this topic or this conversation, I think that would help people feel a lot more confidence and power than maybe they would otherwise.
00:27:45
Speaker
I want to know, have there been moments, Arisa, in your career where protecting your authority or credibility meant risking being perceived as
00:27:55
Speaker
either unlikable or maybe difficult to know or difficult to work with?
00:28:02
Speaker
I think the way it has shown up is so people assume that I may have a very fixed point of view that's in other words I it's
00:28:22
Speaker
point of view and it's hard for me to shift it's quite the opposite I may be to use Amy's words I may at times be passionate about something but I am not so I'm not emotionally invested to the point where I don't I would
00:28:48
Speaker
say, well, if I can't do X, well, it means I'm walking.
00:28:54
Speaker
I wouldn't do that at all.
00:28:57
Speaker
I think what, so there have been periods where people may be reticent to do something for whatever reason.
00:29:09
Speaker
Change in general is hard for most people.
00:29:12
Speaker
And so my approach has always been try it out.
00:29:17
Speaker
you have nothing to lose if you just try it out if you don't like it you may learn something that you didn't know before or it would validate the fact that it was a bad idea you know what i mean you have nothing to lose yeah and some people will say well i have time to lose i'm like not really you you you
00:29:44
Speaker
sort of just being open to the idea of doing something different.
00:29:49
Speaker
And to the extent that I can help facilitate that process so you are not doing it alone and I'm helping to sort of help you through that process,
00:30:03
Speaker
That becomes my responsibility.
00:30:07
Speaker
But I think there have been times where I've worked with leaders and they've said, I don't want to do this, blah, blah, blah.
00:30:16
Speaker
Oh, we've done it before and it didn't work.
00:30:18
Speaker
And, or I've heard them say that to other people.
00:30:23
Speaker
And I'll always remind a leader, if you hired somebody to come in and drive change,
00:30:32
Speaker
telling them when they're driving change to be very cautious around how you drive change is a bit awkward.
00:30:41
Speaker
And it's happened to me where somebody's, I joined a company, they asked me to go do something, I did it.
00:30:48
Speaker
And the feedback I got was, yeah, that was a little bit too fast.
00:30:52
Speaker
We didn't think you were going to do that.
00:30:55
Speaker
And then they're like, but that was the whole reason why you hired me.
00:30:59
Speaker
Yeah.
00:31:01
Speaker
I think sometimes when that happens, I think it's, again, just being open.
00:31:11
Speaker
And again, going back to not getting so emotionally invested that you...
00:31:20
Speaker
you start to play mental games with yourself because that's not healthy either and the reason I keep on going back to the emotional part of it is leaders sometimes underestimate the way that comes across and so I always it's yes you you
00:31:46
Speaker
You want to deliver results.
00:31:49
Speaker
There are time commitments.
00:31:53
Speaker
I get all of that.
00:31:54
Speaker
But at the end of the day, you are working with people.
00:31:59
Speaker
And whilst I am not a people person, I am very cognizant of how that impacts people.
00:32:07
Speaker
And so it's sort of being mindful and recognizing that sometimes people are not where you are in that moment.
00:32:16
Speaker
So I may want to drive change.
00:32:18
Speaker
I may want to do all of that, but I need to bring people along.
00:32:23
Speaker
And that sometimes is more difficult than the change itself.
00:32:27
Speaker
Hmm.
00:32:28
Speaker
I love what you said about just an openness.
00:32:31
Speaker
As I think about even my experiences, the times when I've learned are not the times where I came up with all the ideas and implemented everything I already knew how to do.
00:32:42
Speaker
And so I think there's certainly a silver lining in that and that people learn and grow in those moments too.
00:32:51
Speaker
And so I want to pick into one more thing, Arisa.
00:32:54
Speaker
It's Women's History Month.
00:32:55
Speaker
And so we are focused on that topic all month long.
00:33:00
Speaker
And I'm curious, you've counseled many leaders across executive levels, mid-level leadership.
00:33:08
Speaker
Do you feel like women in these positions feel a particular or a different kind of pressure to either maintain a softness in their style or
00:33:19
Speaker
or temper their assertions or perspectives?
00:33:24
Speaker
No.
00:33:26
Speaker
I've not met women who do that.
00:33:28
Speaker
There's no tempering.
00:33:31
Speaker
I'm refreshed by that answer.
00:33:33
Speaker
I do.
00:33:34
Speaker
Here's the thing.
00:33:38
Speaker
So, without offending anybody.
00:33:43
Speaker
You don't offend anyone.
00:33:46
Speaker
I do think sometimes.
00:33:49
Speaker
So I've had the privilege to work with some phenomenal female leaders.
Gender Expectations in Leadership
00:33:57
Speaker
Just like, you're a great human and it just so happens you're a woman.
00:34:07
Speaker
But I was also, I grew up in an environment where
00:34:13
Speaker
you are a great leader, you just happen to be a woman kind of environment.
00:34:21
Speaker
And so there have been times where I have shared this with a female leader where the people on her team assumed because she was a woman, she should be air quotes, more nurturing.
00:34:42
Speaker
Oh, I've found that too.
00:34:45
Speaker
What they really need is a mother hen.
00:34:47
Speaker
Huh?
00:34:49
Speaker
Exactly.
00:34:51
Speaker
What?
00:34:53
Speaker
Or I've also had people say to me, wow, Risa, the fact that you're in HR and given your role, you should be a little bit more nurturing.
00:35:06
Speaker
To which I would say, are you a lamb?
00:35:11
Speaker
that I need to nurture, like I need to guide.
00:35:17
Speaker
I do think that there is a perception that women need to behave that way.
00:35:24
Speaker
And I would say, I think the women that I've been fortunate enough to work with recognize the idea that I just want to be a good leader.
00:35:37
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:35:40
Speaker
I'm trying to be an authentic leader that is really good at what they do.
00:35:48
Speaker
And so sort of making sure that they retain that in how they lead and not being
00:36:00
Speaker
not allowing other people's perception of what a woman leader needs to do, I think speaks volumes about them.
00:36:14
Speaker
Like you want any leader to have empathy.
00:36:18
Speaker
You want every leader to be able to
00:36:21
Speaker
to help navigate and again, be empathetic.
00:36:28
Speaker
I don't, and so I think the idea, the one thing I always tell women who are very on in their career is don't aspire to be the next Steve Jobs.
00:36:48
Speaker
don't aspire to be the next Jeff Bizios.
00:36:51
Speaker
Aspire to be a good leader, a great leader, but one that reflects who you are as a person.
00:37:00
Speaker
Try to be that authentic self.
00:37:04
Speaker
Not to the point where if your authentic self is to be disparaging to people and rude, not that version of it.
00:37:14
Speaker
you're respectful because I think at the end of the day you just want a leader who's going to be respectful um can help navigate and help create an environment where you can thrive yeah I think that makes a ton of sense and you know I consider some of the roles that
00:37:37
Speaker
I play in my own life of, you know, wife and mother.
00:37:40
Speaker
And I think those have maybe helped me build empathy over time as a leader.
00:37:45
Speaker
And at the same time, I'm so spent on nurturing by the end of the weekend that when Monday rolls around, I don't know how much more I have left in me for other people around me in a professional capacity.
00:37:59
Speaker
And so I
00:38:00
Speaker
I think that's a refreshing observation and assertion that it's not about that.
00:38:06
Speaker
It should not be about that.
00:38:08
Speaker
And it's more about your effectiveness.
00:38:12
Speaker
And I wanna just cover a couple of kind of quick questions here that are building on this topic a little bit.
Effectiveness vs. Likability in Leadership
00:38:22
Speaker
And so the first is to expand on likability and effectiveness.
00:38:29
Speaker
Do you think that organizations reward likability in a leader more or less than effectiveness?
00:38:40
Speaker
I think it depends on the organization.
00:38:42
Speaker
So organizations that are relationship-based, likability, although people won't acknowledge it that way, but I once had somebody say to me,
00:38:58
Speaker
why don't you smile a lot?
00:39:02
Speaker
It would be all right.
00:39:04
Speaker
Love that one.
00:39:05
Speaker
There is a reason not to smile.
00:39:08
Speaker
And I think the reason why, just going back to what we just talked about is, I do think likability, particularly if you're a woman, I think people want to make sure that you are likable, you're accessible.
00:39:29
Speaker
And by the way, sometimes those comments are coming from other women.
00:39:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:39:39
Speaker
More often than not, they're coming from other women.
00:39:44
Speaker
And so I do think, depending on the organization, yes, it's your likability and the perception of what that means.
00:39:55
Speaker
The way I translate likability
00:39:59
Speaker
is that if you ask me to go do something, I do it with a smile.
00:40:06
Speaker
I don't question you.
00:40:08
Speaker
And I know that's not what it means, but that's my interpretation of it.
00:40:13
Speaker
I think I would rather, I don't want people to dislike me, but I would like to think that this, again, just going back to what I said at the beginning of our conversation is that
00:40:31
Speaker
I'm credible in that I say what I'm going to do and I do it.
00:40:38
Speaker
I provide value to the organization and the leader.
00:40:44
Speaker
And I hope that translates into likability.
00:40:49
Speaker
But at the end of the day, I would say what to me trouts likability is respect.
00:40:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:40:59
Speaker
Because you can like me, but you may not respect me a lot.
00:41:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:04
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:06
Speaker
And that damages your credibility, that damages your ability to influence and navigate an organization.
00:41:14
Speaker
I was just reflecting on like your answer.
00:41:17
Speaker
Sorry, Erin, just to hop in a little bit in here.
00:41:21
Speaker
And it's an interesting concept.
00:41:23
Speaker
And I know it came up as like one of our topics that we wanted to talk about during Women's History Month, because there is this tendency to think of it as, um,
00:41:34
Speaker
as a as a challenge in in the career span of women but you know what i've seen it would be much more damaging is with men and they the rewarding of like interesting behaviors that appeal to a very niche um group but you see that when you see
00:42:03
Speaker
unhealthy behaviors get rewarded.
00:42:05
Speaker
I think that's really damaging across the whole organization.
00:42:08
Speaker
So more than like rewarding likability and effectiveness, I think there's other behaviors in the workplace that are probably more prevalent that deserve a little bit more attention.
00:42:19
Speaker
And I, you know, that's where you hope that like executive coaching and experience and just a few more spins around the earth will like help people get to that place.
00:42:34
Speaker
But I mean, that's just my take.
00:42:37
Speaker
And I could be like alone in thinking about this.
00:42:39
Speaker
But I do think in leadership, there's such a balance between not likeability necessarily, but
00:42:50
Speaker
when you're, if you have like a way of delivering things or dealing with things that impacts your effectiveness, no matter how much you might be bringing to the table, then it's like net negative, in my opinion.
00:43:05
Speaker
Yeah, I will say this though, you've ever, like I oftentimes, sometimes I'll hear people say, I really like this person, but they can't do their job.
00:43:15
Speaker
Really great person, love hanging around them.
00:43:19
Speaker
But, you know, and so, yeah, I think, I think, I do think it's an interesting proposition, if you will, right?
00:43:35
Speaker
You would like to think the more effective people are, the more likable they are.
00:43:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:44
Speaker
I don't, but yeah, I've seen,
00:43:49
Speaker
look at it the other way around you can have people who they people don't like but they're very effective in their role and they get things done yeah one extreme is not good no but i do think it i mean i'm sure
00:44:11
Speaker
and seen it in your career.
00:44:13
Speaker
Like it happens a lot of times in sales, right?
00:44:17
Speaker
The brash salesperson, you know, and people like, oh, I can't say I'm working with this person.
00:44:23
Speaker
But they're the ones who get the deals.
00:44:26
Speaker
They're the ones who get it done.
00:44:28
Speaker
Top performer.
00:44:30
Speaker
Exactly, right?
00:44:33
Speaker
I think the question is, and now that you say this, and this again may not be fair,
00:44:42
Speaker
But I often hear that type of description around men.
00:44:51
Speaker
In other words, it's okay if a male person is a girl better.
00:44:56
Speaker
I don't need to like them.
00:44:58
Speaker
I don't know if the same applies to a woman.
00:45:02
Speaker
Maybe that's just my very limited experience.
00:45:05
Speaker
Now, I think there's a definite like differential measuring stick.
00:45:09
Speaker
Like I definitely think that there is.
00:45:12
Speaker
And, you know, it's not something that I've particularly let bother me or faze me in my career.
00:45:17
Speaker
I think like you, Arisa, I've been lucky to work with some like incredibly strong, thoughtful, sharp women who kind of led the way in how to conduct yourself in work.
00:45:30
Speaker
in business settings and how to influence without having to change who you are as a person.
00:45:42
Speaker
And, but I still, I still think there's a different measure for success based on like the likability.
00:45:51
Speaker
And, but where I see it be more of a challenge is on the male side because yeah, there's no,
00:45:59
Speaker
There's no limit to how off the scales some people can be if they're perceived by the right people as being productive.
00:46:12
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:14
Speaker
And there are tons of dimensions to that too.
00:46:16
Speaker
I think function and role type has a lot to do with it.
00:46:20
Speaker
I'm having flashbacks in this moment to stepping into my first internship ever at an investment management firm and walking onto the floor.
00:46:29
Speaker
And most people are in suits.
00:46:31
Speaker
This was pre-pandemic era, people dressed up to go to work.
00:46:35
Speaker
And the person who was sat right next to my desk was in this like,
00:46:40
Speaker
like crumpled t-shirt, you know, like those like half washed commercials and a pair of sweatpants and tennis shoes.
00:46:48
Speaker
And I remember being sort of puzzled about that.
00:46:50
Speaker
My boss looked at me and goes, well, he's like a senior staff level engineer.
00:46:56
Speaker
He's the best one we've gotten.
00:46:57
Speaker
So it's okay for him to dress like that, but you can't and no one else can.
00:47:02
Speaker
So I think there's maybe layers of, of privilege in the way that people show up and the way that people interact.
00:47:09
Speaker
Um,
00:47:11
Speaker
it's not a big deal and like no one cares really but at the same time it is it's not consistent and there's pockets of that I think you're right like all over the place um in varying degrees like and you know it goes back to it works both ways they're not dying on hills and they're not sweating small stuff um like you also you know can't be
00:47:39
Speaker
worried about your personal like experience like you you've got to just embrace um the position that you're in um
00:47:50
Speaker
I, I do think corporate America is fascinating.
00:47:54
Speaker
It's very different in my opinion to what the working world was like.
00:48:00
Speaker
Mind you, it's been 10 years plus since I was back in the UK, but it's very different to what I experienced for the first kind of
00:48:13
Speaker
what 15 years of my career um the politics the navigating um personalities the the charade um of certain things is it took some some getting some getting used to um have we got time for me to digress with like a funny little story
00:48:37
Speaker
Of course.
00:48:40
Speaker
So this, this was like my first, so I had always been in staffing and salesy environment, right?
00:48:48
Speaker
Like very, you're as good as the month you're in this type of, you know, very like powerhouse environments.
00:48:55
Speaker
And then I moved over to the US and I started working in corporate.
00:48:58
Speaker
And then I'd managed teams in staffing before and then found myself working for Erin.
00:49:07
Speaker
And she gave me some feedback in one of my performance reviews.
00:49:13
Speaker
I don't know if you'll even remember.
00:49:14
Speaker
You probably do remember this because I'm sure I've brought it up to you before.
00:49:17
Speaker
But it was...
00:49:20
Speaker
Amy comes to the table with great ideas and she knows it.
00:49:26
Speaker
And the, the real like opportunity, like you can get people from A to B, but the opportunity is like how they feel about the journey.
00:49:39
Speaker
And I thought that was like a really good way of putting like,
00:49:43
Speaker
Sometimes, Amy, you're a dev and asshole.
00:49:49
Speaker
No, I think the point there is that people are much more likely to buy in when they feel like the idea is theirs, or at least partially, even if it was yours all along.
00:49:58
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:50:00
Speaker
But no, I don't remember that.
00:50:01
Speaker
But it is making me smile because I can imagine that conversation.
00:50:06
Speaker
And you are brilliant.
00:50:07
Speaker
You come up.
00:50:07
Speaker
You can just look at a problem and diagnose what's wrong and what should be done about it much quicker than most people, I would venture to say.
00:50:21
Speaker
And there's something about that that I think is so special and that some people are maybe intimidated by.
00:50:31
Speaker
Well, thank you for those kind words.
00:50:33
Speaker
I was kind of just going to sit back and see if you had any more great things to say about me because I never get tired of hearing them.
00:50:41
Speaker
But no, it was a really good, it was really good feedback.
00:50:44
Speaker
It really helped me like understand, okay, I move quickly and sometimes I need to give like people the opportunity to,
00:50:55
Speaker
come along the journey with me.
00:50:56
Speaker
And I think that really benefited me as I kind of went on in my career.
00:51:01
Speaker
All right.
00:51:03
Speaker
So as we kind of wrap up, I'd love to ask Arisa some key takeaways for our audience out there.
00:51:15
Speaker
What is one mindset shift that helped you to pull away from emotionally investing in decisions and outcomes at work?
Emotional Detachment and Sharing Opinions
00:51:30
Speaker
I, just that, just that, like, why am I, why do I care?
00:51:38
Speaker
It's really, it's, I remember a, there was an issue
00:51:49
Speaker
that I had.
00:51:50
Speaker
And I had, so we're on a call.
00:51:54
Speaker
We had a number of senior leaders and I said, I don't think this is a great idea.
00:52:00
Speaker
And they're like, why?
00:52:02
Speaker
And I will say this.
00:52:05
Speaker
Here's the thing that sometimes we forget.
00:52:09
Speaker
Sometimes people don't really need to ask your opinion.
00:52:12
Speaker
So the fact when somebody actually takes the time to ask for your opinion, that in of itself, you should appreciate.
00:52:21
Speaker
So they asked for my point of view and I felt a little bit strongly about this particular issue.
00:52:34
Speaker
And I gave three reasons why.
00:52:36
Speaker
Because I was closest to it.
00:52:41
Speaker
And every single person...
00:52:43
Speaker
they were above me, said, yeah, no, we're going to move forward in this other direction.
00:52:50
Speaker
And lo and behold, I was right.
00:52:56
Speaker
And so I remember the leader.
00:53:02
Speaker
So we ended up having to do something that I now had to take care of.
00:53:13
Speaker
yeah think about it this was not my idea you did what you wanted to do and now I have to go execute it and so as I I remember one of the ladies coming up to me and saying so don't you want to say it I'm like say what you know just say it like say what I told you so
00:53:37
Speaker
I'm like, no, you said it yourself.
00:53:40
Speaker
But honestly, I learned from that experience.
00:53:45
Speaker
One is I appreciate the fact that these senior leaders asked for my opinion.
00:53:50
Speaker
Yeah.
00:53:52
Speaker
And the other is I think they all learned from it.
00:53:58
Speaker
So in the future, it was, look, you want to do the right thing.
00:54:03
Speaker
But sometimes my mantra is no good deed goes unpunished.
00:54:08
Speaker
So you may want to do it, but you do it at the end.
00:54:12
Speaker
At the expense of other people.
00:54:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:15
Speaker
And sometimes you just need to stick to the process or the policy or whatever it is that you all agreed to.
00:54:25
Speaker
And so my, what I always tell people is in that moment, was I disappointed?
00:54:35
Speaker
I was like, this is going to turn out interesting.
00:54:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:54:39
Speaker
But I wasn't upset.
00:54:41
Speaker
I wasn't like, oh my God, I can't believe this.
00:54:45
Speaker
They're going to be wrong.
00:54:45
Speaker
They've ignored me.
00:54:47
Speaker
They're going to regret it.
00:54:49
Speaker
You know, I think the fact that these leaders took the time to get my perspective, they heard it.
00:54:58
Speaker
And I don't know if I would have made a different decision
00:55:03
Speaker
if I were in their shoes.
00:55:04
Speaker
And so I think it was kind of interesting moving forward.
00:55:09
Speaker
Like whenever we had something similar, people would, it was like, I wanted to be like, no, we're not doing that.
00:55:16
Speaker
But I just feel like, but I, what I learned from that is it's okay for people to hear your point of view
00:55:31
Speaker
And whether you're right, wrong, or indifferent, they took the time.
00:55:35
Speaker
Because some leaders don't even ask.
00:55:38
Speaker
Yeah.
00:55:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's true.
00:55:40
Speaker
And so that's my point of view, that if somebody asks you for your opinion, that's okay.
00:55:46
Speaker
They don't have to take it.
00:55:48
Speaker
But don't get... Sometimes I hear people get so upset that they're not listening to me.
00:55:56
Speaker
And so it's like, okay, okay.
00:56:02
Speaker
You can ask them why they made the decision, but if you allow your own abilities and the person that you are to get so caught up in how somebody decided to do something different than what you proposed, then
00:56:30
Speaker
Then I would say that's, and I, somebody's going to hold me to this.
00:56:36
Speaker
That's a problem, not a them problem.
00:56:39
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:56:41
Speaker
You, if you're going to be successful navigating big personalities in big roles with big responsibilities, you can't have a lot of precious moments, you know, where you worry too much about
00:56:59
Speaker
What do they think about me now?
00:57:00
Speaker
Why didn't they take that, take that recommendation?
00:57:03
Speaker
I think one of the greatest lessons, anybody who's going from that like manager level up to dealing more with executives, particularly is like learning to disagree and commit and not take emotion into the, into it.
00:57:28
Speaker
will benefit you so much more.
00:57:31
Speaker
Otherwise you end up being like that person you mentioned before.
00:57:33
Speaker
I was like, oh, I hate it here.
00:57:35
Speaker
Go, go leave.
00:57:36
Speaker
Go do something else.
00:57:39
Speaker
I had a leader that I worked with
00:57:43
Speaker
And she was phenomenal.
00:57:46
Speaker
And I remember there was a disagreement.
00:57:50
Speaker
Well, not a disagreement.
00:57:52
Speaker
They had decided to go in one direction and they weren't sure how this leader would react.
00:57:59
Speaker
And everybody had assumptions about who this leader was.
00:58:04
Speaker
And...
00:58:06
Speaker
She didn't get upset.
00:58:07
Speaker
She didn't like the decision, but she owned it as if it was hers.
00:58:14
Speaker
To the point where I even forgot that that wasn't her idea.
00:58:21
Speaker
She embraced it.
00:58:22
Speaker
She came up with things that the leader hadn't even thought about.
00:58:26
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:58:27
Speaker
Honestly.
00:58:30
Speaker
And like, when I think about leaders who disagree and commit, she is somebody who I model myself around.
00:58:37
Speaker
Like she emotionally disconnected herself from decision and said, this is a business decision and this is what I'm going to do.
00:58:47
Speaker
And I just find that people who do that are just, they end up being really great leaders because
00:58:55
Speaker
part of being a leader is you may disagree with something, but you really have to own that decision as if it's yours.
00:59:04
Speaker
And so anyway, that I, again, I've been fortunate to work with people who are just phenomenal.
00:59:17
Speaker
Like I, in every single role that I've been in, I'm like,
00:59:24
Speaker
I'm lucky.
00:59:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:28
Speaker
And also get to people like you, Amy.
00:59:30
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:33
Speaker
So, and also meaning that we're not phenomenal.
00:59:37
Speaker
That's my point.
00:59:38
Speaker
You are phenomenal.
00:59:39
Speaker
Okay.
00:59:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:42
Speaker
I mean, yeah, let's be honest.
00:59:44
Speaker
In every company, there's both ends of the scale and you have to take it as it comes and that's fine.
00:59:49
Speaker
But I think that lesson around take the emotion out of it,
00:59:55
Speaker
commit, like give it your best, think through, you know, okay, this is what we have ahead of us.
01:00:02
Speaker
How can I make this better?
01:00:04
Speaker
They are the most successful leaders because they are able to think much more objectively around a situation on more of a global scale, if you will, than just how this impacts me.
01:00:20
Speaker
Because the higher up you get,
01:00:23
Speaker
the less you matter.
01:00:25
Speaker
It's the whole that matters.
01:00:28
Speaker
Exactly.
01:00:29
Speaker
And that's just a transition that not everyone can make.
01:00:32
Speaker
But the ones that do, they do great things.
01:00:36
Speaker
And you are definitely someone, Arisa, that I look up to as someone who can see the bigger picture, asks the right questions.
01:00:46
Speaker
You're very good at this, like guiding thoughts, thoughts,
01:00:50
Speaker
so that people can come to a conclusion that feels authentic to them, but you've given them the right structure to think through a problem effectively, which, you know, that's, that's where HR people teams really come into their own is when they've got that skill, but it's not, it's not everywhere, but I love watching, watching you execute.
01:01:18
Speaker
Thank you.
01:01:19
Speaker
What a loving guys today.
01:01:23
Speaker
Like so much, so much nice things said.
01:01:28
Speaker
Erin's little speech about me.
01:01:30
Speaker
I've had a couple of speeches.
01:01:33
Speaker
Wow.
01:01:35
Speaker
We're feeling it today.
01:01:38
Speaker
Thank you so much for joining us.
01:01:40
Speaker
I've really enjoyed the conversation.
01:01:42
Speaker
I hope everybody who's listening has also gotten something out of it.
01:01:48
Speaker
We normally at this point would ask like where people can follow you or like get in touch with you.
01:01:56
Speaker
I mean, is the response don't?
01:02:00
Speaker
No.
01:02:04
Speaker
I'm kidding.
01:02:06
Speaker
You know, I just sort of, I'm not a people person.
01:02:07
Speaker
They can contact me on LinkedIn.
01:02:12
Speaker
Yeah, perfect.
01:02:14
Speaker
Find a reason on LinkedIn, reach out, ask her any questions.
01:02:17
Speaker
She'd love to connect.
01:02:20
Speaker
I like people.
01:02:21
Speaker
Let's end on that note.
01:02:24
Speaker
Have a good night, everyone.
01:02:25
Speaker
Good night.
01:02:26
Speaker
Thank you.