Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to Fractional Frequency, our take on talent, people trends, and the reality of building up businesses in an economy that keeps rewriting the rules.
Speaker: I'm Amy Crook, founder of Strativist.
Speaker: And I'm Erin Todis, Managing Director of Talent Delivery, which basically means I live in the universe of finding the right people to make an impact for our clients fast.
Speaker: Around here, we talk about the real side of HR and talent, what works, what absolutely doesn't, and how to build teams that can carry a business, not drag it down.
Speaker: The breakdown trends share the behind the scenes of scaling a consultancy from zero and probably overshare a little because that's where the good lessons live.
Speaker: So whether you're building, hiring, leading, or just trying to keep your company profitable, you're in the right place.
Speaker: This is Fractional Frequency.
Speaker: Let's get to it.
Speaker: It feels like it's Friday, but it's not.
Speaker: It's only Tuesday.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: What are you going to do?
Speaker: But something that is definitely going to turn my day right around is that we have a guest joining us today as part of our continued homage to women in leadership and leadership.
Speaker: And we have someone with us today whose career journey reflects both her intelligence and self-awareness.
Speaker: I have had the privilege of working with this person at Glassdoor.
Speaker: And now again, as part of one of my fractional clients, Game Time, she brings thoughtful perspectives to leadership.
Speaker: She's able to influence like leadership.
Speaker: I've never seen before and she's really attuned to the realities that many professionals face as they kind of grow into their voice and their authority.
Speaker: Arisa, welcome to the Strativist podcast.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: I think your induction was, I'm glad it came from you because I chuckle when you were talking.
Speaker: Like, am I?
Speaker: I don't think so.
Speaker: Did I mention humble?
Speaker: Humble.
Speaker: humble also um I just want to say like one of my funniest things um of my time at Glassdoor was when you joined and you know I hadn't had a meeting with you yet but people were like I'm just not sure how to how to read a reset and I was like oh I gotta meet this person um and I just
Speaker: thought you were hilarious, super sharp, your ability to kind of assess the situation, not going like all guns blazing, but just ask the right questions to get people thinking about things the right way was just so impressive.
Speaker: And I'm glad that we, even through the little lull of us not working together, we kept in touch and
Speaker: I'm very grateful to benefit from your continued wisdom and your very, very good sense of humor.
Speaker: Well, thank you.
Speaker: I have to say.
Speaker: and I say this not because we're doing a podcast, but you are one of the, when I think about a head of town acquisition, you epitomize what that is.
Speaker: And you do it in such like very accessible, you know, you don't get too technical.
Speaker: It's just any lay person could understand, like, this is the strategy, this is the direction that we're going to.
Speaker: Yeah, you have to keep it simple.
Speaker: Like if you, and I think the process is simple.
Speaker: Like hiring talent is simple, but doing it well takes a lot of effort.
Speaker: Yes, I agree.
Speaker: And you do it well.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Okay, well enough about me.
Speaker: Let's talk about you.
Speaker: Let's start by talking through your career journey.
Speaker: When did you first start thinking intentionally about your career path?
Speaker: I think I always...
Speaker: data oriented, which is strange because the business that we are in, people often would say, but you have to be a people person.
Speaker: And so because I'm a very sort of data, I'm an introverted person as well.
Speaker: it was always my, like whatever I was gonna do, that it had to be something where I could lean into data, but also not become a sort of data analyst, if that makes sense.
Speaker: And so when I started my career,
Speaker: I stumbled into HR, but it was in compensation.
Speaker: And the data part of that resonated with me.
Speaker: I'm like, oh, I thought it was just about people.
Speaker: Turns out it is a little bit about people, but it's also about data.
Speaker: So yeah, that's what I started to really, I was a little bit more intentional about it, but also recognize that whatever I do, using data to inform and help people achieve whatever it is that they wanted to achieve was sort of like the place that I leaned in the most.
Speaker: Yeah, no, that's, and that's, that is it.
Speaker: Like a lot of people,
Speaker: that I know that are in the HR space are introverted, don't, you know, want to be front and center or, and they don't, you know, going to a big, busy, like event or party is not their idea of a good time.
Speaker: And yet they end up in a position where they're, um,
Speaker: quietly like supporting people's growth people's ambitions um make helping businesses uh move forward and i think maybe it's because there's this outdated perception of what hr is you know it's not like we sit there running um
Speaker: you know, little personnel reports and, you know, making sure that people's time cards are correct or whatever it might be.
Speaker: It's, it is more of a strategic, strategic tool for businesses now.
Speaker: You know, performance of people is so crucial to being successful and having the right processes and systems in place to support that is like a no brainer.
Speaker: So I think, you know,
Speaker: I think a lot of people I know that are in HR are self-described antisocials.
Speaker: Some of us revel in it.
Speaker: We know that we are.
Speaker: And we just kind of like, yep, that's us.
Speaker: Yeah, it's not that we're like sitting there being prim and proper at the work event.
Speaker: It's just we don't want to talk to you.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Nothing personal.
Speaker: Nothing personal.
Speaker: Don't want to talk to anyone.
Speaker: Okay, so let's go into kind of when you first stepped into leadership.
Speaker: What experiences shaped how you approached being in a more senior role?
Speaker: Well, I think, so I would say I've been very fortunate in my career where I've been mentored by people who've sort of taken an interest in my career, but also willing to invest in executive coaches.
Speaker: And so very early on in my career, I realized that
Speaker: I have a style, but I shouldn't be afraid to acknowledge my style.
Speaker: And I shouldn't be afraid to sort of share the way I show up.
Speaker: And so as I was sort of growing or evolving in my career and sort of moving into a leadership role, by the time I got there, I...
Speaker: I had an idea of what good leadership was and what it wasn't.
Speaker: And to sort of acknowledge my flaws.
Speaker: And so the first team that I led was a team in Europe.
Speaker: I lived in the US at the time, so I traveled a lot.
Speaker: And one of the things that I learned very early on in my career is that
Speaker: In my role, people make assumptions about an HR lead relative to the business leader that they're partnering with and the level of influence that you have or do not have with that leader.
Speaker: And so I was...
Speaker: Astutely aware of that.
Speaker: And so I would always tell people in front of the leader that I was supporting that my job is to influence.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But ultimately it's the leader's decision.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I try not to ever use somebody else's position in power to influence what I wanted.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So I would rarely say something like, if I wanted something, I wouldn't say, well, Amy wants us to do this.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: If I couldn't influence that person or that group, I would then go back and look at the data that I had to say, what is it about the data that I have that is getting in the way of this person making a decision?
Speaker: Yeah, and that's such a great point.
Speaker: I think it's very easy to lean on internal stakeholders and leaders to propel your point of view around an organization.
Speaker: And if you aren't able to influence change independently,
Speaker: that's not real leadership.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Cause no one's following you.
Speaker: They're following a threat.
Speaker: Correct.
Speaker: And that's not healthy or recommended.
Speaker: And you, you kind of mentioned this a little bit in your, in, in the beginning about like not being afraid, um, to show up authentically.
Speaker: Were there any moments that forced you to rethink how you showed up professionally at all?
Speaker: So I remember very early on where you, like, there were these leaders who happened to be men, but they had a very strong point of view.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And sometimes you would debate people.
Speaker: because you're trying to influence somebody.
Speaker: And sometimes you get very sort of caught up in the moment.
Speaker: And I remember as I was, I had this executive coach and the leader and the executive coach said to me, you know what, Arisa, you have to ask yourself two questions.
Speaker: Why are you emotionally invested in this particular issue?
Speaker: At the end of the day, it's a business.
Speaker: You know, if it happens, it happens like it's thousands of employees.
Speaker: So your point of view is a point of view, but not the point of view.
Speaker: That's one.
Speaker: And then the second was that you, these leaders that you are trying to emulate, that you perceive as being great leaders, they're not great leaders, right?
Speaker: It's not because they're of their gender.
Speaker: It's none of that.
Speaker: It's, you know, they're trying to get things done.
Speaker: There are ways that they could do it that people are not, don't feel like they have to have a debate.
Speaker: They don't feel like they have to be right.
Speaker: And so step back a bit and trying to figure out like, what problem are you really trying to solve?
Speaker: Why is it important that a key stakeholder has to even agree with you?
Speaker: And at the end of the day, if they agree with you or not, your job is just to lay out the options.
Speaker: You can tell them the options that you would prefer that they take, but you don't need to, it's not, if they don't take your advice, it isn't something personal.
Speaker: Because I think oftentimes as you're building credibility with a leader, when they,
Speaker: they don't take it or they don't like it, or it may come across as they're dismissing you.
Speaker: You can take it personally.
Speaker: It's like, oh, they don't like what I said.
Speaker: They don't like how I said it.
Speaker: I didn't have the right data.
Speaker: And it's just, you know what?
Speaker: They've heard what you've had to say and they're willing to go in a different direction.
Speaker: And that is okay because that's their job.
Speaker: Their job is to listen and take everything that you say.
Speaker: And so...
Speaker: I think it just informed how I showed up.
Speaker: Yeah, my more will, like more open and less I'm going to die on every hill.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's something I also learned pretty early on in leadership is that
Speaker: I can feel passionately about something, but that doesn't really matter.
Speaker: If I can't make a compelling enough case to influence the, the direction that we go in, that I didn't do it.
Speaker: I didn't make, I didn't influence it.
Speaker: You know, like I can go back and try different approaches or I can just accept that, you know, that's the position that they're in to make that, to make that decision.
Speaker: And yeah,
Speaker: Not everything is like, in fact, most things are not life or death.
Speaker: Pretty much everything in corporate is not life or death.
Speaker: And I was going to say, if you also think about how, when you have somebody reporting to you, right?
Speaker: And they're trying to influence you.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And you were sort of, you may agree to disagree.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think you also learn about how that feels.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: When you are the recipient of that.
Speaker: And so I think it's sort of recognizing that at the end of the day, people are just trying to do their best and get to the right result.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And to the extent that whoever's,
Speaker: whoever you're working with or partnering with, that's the intention that they have.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And not to read anything more or less into it.
Speaker: It's, I heard you, that's great.
Speaker: We're going to move in this direction.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Assuming good intent is a definite one to carry.
Speaker: Otherwise you can end up acting a little bit wounded for no, for no real reason.
Speaker: And, you know, just talking about how you lead other people,
Speaker: I think when I look back on the managers that I've managed, I kind of prided myself in bringing people in that was so different to me.
Speaker: And I had really different perspectives and thought about things in different ways.
Speaker: Because...
Speaker: If I just sit there with people that are like, yeah, that's great.
Speaker: Yeah, we should do that.
Speaker: Nothing's really getting better.
Speaker: It's not a company.
Speaker: It's just a cosign of like my own ideas.
Speaker: And I don't really need that.
Speaker: What I need is people around me that have a point of view that's different so that we can get to an outcome that's better than what it would have been if it was just me thinking about it.
Speaker: And I think that's really, really was hard for me to get my head around like upwards.
Speaker: It was easy for me to do for the folks that I managed because that's how I like to operate.
Speaker: I love honesty and transparency.
Speaker: And if you tell me this idea is garbage, then I'm gonna listen to you because I don't wanna make it, I don't wanna do something that's not gonna work.
Speaker: um so let's figure it out so when I was having those conversations as I moved up in my career with like c-level people and you're explaining like why something is not necessarily the right pathway forward and they choose to go that way anyway I was like
Speaker: why would you do that?
Speaker: I'm just like, perplexed.
Speaker: And but you, you just have to learn that, you know what, the world will keep on spinning.
Speaker: It's, it's okay, you, it's your role to offer advice and guidance.
Speaker: And, you know, you'd be remiss in your role not to offer your point of view.
Speaker: But if it's not listened to, or if it's not
Speaker: in line with what the bigger plan is that you might not even be privy to.
Speaker: You just have to accept it and keep going.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So my last question for this section is kind of along that same lines around leadership, but just as you've grown in your career and the decisions that you've made, how has the definition of success changed for you?
Speaker: I think.
Speaker: So, and maybe because I am introverted and so I have this kind of weird way of looking at things.
Speaker: One of the things I realized is success for me is being satisfied in the work that I've done.
Speaker: Like a sense of accomplishment.
Speaker: It's less about the title.
Speaker: And I don't want to even say money, but sometimes if you...
Speaker: of doing things that mentally are not healthy for you in an environment that's not healthy for you yeah yeah it's almost like you have an illness right so you have all this this is me like let's say I'm a gazillionaire and I have all this money but I have something that ells me I don't get to enjoy it as much and so I realized very like not
Speaker: too early but there was a point in my career where I just said I want to be around people who are smarter than me who would challenge me but where I can have fun yeah and so I made choices sometimes I'm like was that really not really a smart move but then I love the people that I work with and so I've always been a
Speaker: if something isn't working for me, I quickly will remove myself from that situation.
Speaker: I don't like, I don't, especially if I feel like there's, I'm not going to have the impact that I want, right?
Speaker: And so I don't, I sort of just move on.
Speaker: I don't sort of,
Speaker: I don't get to the point where I'm sort of constantly whinging over the fact of one thing versus the other.
Speaker: It is what it is, but I like the people and that makes up for everything else.
Speaker: And so I always, oftentimes I'll have people
Speaker: come to me and they're either upset with their role or their job and I'll say why don't you just leave I know it's like they've never even considered that as an option why I'm like well every time I talk to you you're not happy you cannot be emotionally it's not good for you it's not like
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: I think part of being a leader also is sort of knowing when to extricate yourself from situations where you're no longer adding value.
Speaker: And so I do think, and I used to say this all the time to people is you need to spend some time being introspective because when you think, when you spend time thinking about yourself a little bit,
Speaker: you then start to think about the choices and the trade-offs that you're willing to make to be effective in your role.
Speaker: Because I do think if you add a man, a leader who'd always say, if you don't say it, you'll act it out or something to that effect.
Speaker: And I do believe that is true.
Speaker: Like I've worked with a leader once where she was on a Monday, I don't know what happened on the weekend, but, and this was very early on my career, on a Monday she'd always be upset.
Speaker: And then it was every, you know, it's like, I don't know if I want to do that.
Speaker: And I love the group of analysts that we worked and we would joke about it.
Speaker: But after a while, we're like, I don't think this is healthy for us.
Speaker: I mean, we could get together on the weekends.
Speaker: We don't need to have this job.
Speaker: And so it was kind of, we all kind of left.
Speaker: But it was, I didn't, I think, I don't know if this leader understood that clearly either she didn't like the, whatever the issue was, it was impacting the entire team.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I do think there are times like if she just stepped back and just said, you know, I don't want to do this anymore.
Speaker: These people piss me off.
Speaker: And I love what you said, Arisa, about is this healthy for me?
Speaker: And that the answer to that question could change over time because people grow and companies change and getting to sort of a maturity point where you can be honest with yourself about whether this situation is serving you and vice versa is
Speaker: I think that's a really powerful point in someone's leadership journey.
Speaker: I love that.
Speaker: I want to shift us a little bit.
Speaker: We've been talking about sort of openness and the art of influence and something that comes up in conversations for Amy and I is that people a lot of times will consider that
Speaker: sometimes on their path to leadership or in a leadership role, that they feel torn between being likable with their peers and stakeholders and being credible.
Speaker: And so I want to sort of pose that question to you and ask if you would share a little bit about how you reconcile that balance internally for yourself.
Speaker: And perhaps, you know, if you've counseled business leaders on that topic, what are some of the pearls of wisdom that you might share?
Speaker: Not sure of that personal wisdom.
Speaker: I would say for me is credibility.
Speaker: I'd prefer that you perceive me as somebody who is credible.
Speaker: And that may evolve into likability.
Speaker: But because I'm not a... This may sound weird.
Speaker: Because I'm not a people person per se...
Speaker: I don't go into situations hoping that you would like me.
Speaker: Actually, I sometimes go into situations thinking, I don't know if these people even want me around.
Speaker: And so how do I demonstrate value?
Speaker: so that they know that any amount of time they spend for me will be something worth their time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I love that way of thinking about it.
Speaker: And I think that that could help someone get out of their head too, as I even consider meeting various stakeholders and leaders for the first time.
Speaker: Sometimes you can feel intimidated either by someone's background or what you've heard about their style,
Speaker: or where they come from.
Speaker: But if you can set that aside and think instead about how can I add value to this topic or this conversation, I think that would help people feel a lot more confidence and power than maybe they would otherwise.
Speaker: I want to know, have there been moments, Arisa, in your career where protecting your authority or credibility meant risking being perceived as
Speaker: either unlikable or maybe difficult to know or difficult to work with?
Speaker: I think the way it has shown up is so people assume that I may have a very fixed point of view that's in other words I it's
Speaker: point of view and it's hard for me to shift it's quite the opposite I may be to use Amy's words I may at times be passionate about something but I am not so I'm not emotionally invested to the point where I don't I would
Speaker: say, well, if I can't do X, well, it means I'm walking.
Speaker: I wouldn't do that at all.
Speaker: I think what, so there have been periods where people may be reticent to do something for whatever reason.
Speaker: Change in general is hard for most people.
Speaker: And so my approach has always been try it out.
Speaker: you have nothing to lose if you just try it out if you don't like it you may learn something that you didn't know before or it would validate the fact that it was a bad idea you know what i mean you have nothing to lose yeah and some people will say well i have time to lose i'm like not really you you you
Speaker: sort of just being open to the idea of doing something different.
Speaker: And to the extent that I can help facilitate that process so you are not doing it alone and I'm helping to sort of help you through that process,
Speaker: That becomes my responsibility.
Speaker: But I think there have been times where I've worked with leaders and they've said, I don't want to do this, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker: Oh, we've done it before and it didn't work.
Speaker: And, or I've heard them say that to other people.
Speaker: And I'll always remind a leader, if you hired somebody to come in and drive change,
Speaker: telling them when they're driving change to be very cautious around how you drive change is a bit awkward.
Speaker: And it's happened to me where somebody's, I joined a company, they asked me to go do something, I did it.
Speaker: And the feedback I got was, yeah, that was a little bit too fast.
Speaker: We didn't think you were going to do that.
Speaker: And then they're like, but that was the whole reason why you hired me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think sometimes when that happens, I think it's, again, just being open.
Speaker: And again, going back to not getting so emotionally invested that you...
Speaker: you start to play mental games with yourself because that's not healthy either and the reason I keep on going back to the emotional part of it is leaders sometimes underestimate the way that comes across and so I always it's yes you you
Speaker: You want to deliver results.
Speaker: There are time commitments.
Speaker: I get all of that.
Speaker: But at the end of the day, you are working with people.
Speaker: And whilst I am not a people person, I am very cognizant of how that impacts people.
Speaker: And so it's sort of being mindful and recognizing that sometimes people are not where you are in that moment.
Speaker: So I may want to drive change.
Speaker: I may want to do all of that, but I need to bring people along.
Speaker: And that sometimes is more difficult than the change itself.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker: I love what you said about just an openness.
Speaker: As I think about even my experiences, the times when I've learned are not the times where I came up with all the ideas and implemented everything I already knew how to do.
Speaker: And so I think there's certainly a silver lining in that and that people learn and grow in those moments too.
Speaker: And so I want to pick into one more thing, Arisa.
Speaker: It's Women's History Month.
Speaker: And so we are focused on that topic all month long.
Speaker: And I'm curious, you've counseled many leaders across executive levels, mid-level leadership.
Speaker: Do you feel like women in these positions feel a particular or a different kind of pressure to either maintain a softness in their style or
Speaker: or temper their assertions or perspectives?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: I've not met women who do that.
Speaker: There's no tempering.
Speaker: I'm refreshed by that answer.
Speaker: I do.
Speaker: Here's the thing.
Speaker: So, without offending anybody.
Speaker: You don't offend anyone.
Speaker: I do think sometimes.
Speaker: So I've had the privilege to work with some phenomenal female leaders.
Speaker: Just like, you're a great human and it just so happens you're a woman.
Speaker: But I was also, I grew up in an environment where
Speaker: you are a great leader, you just happen to be a woman kind of environment.
Speaker: And so there have been times where I have shared this with a female leader where the people on her team assumed because she was a woman, she should be air quotes, more nurturing.
Speaker: Oh, I've found that too.
Speaker: What they really need is a mother hen.
Speaker: Huh?
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: What?
Speaker: Or I've also had people say to me, wow, Risa, the fact that you're in HR and given your role, you should be a little bit more nurturing.
Speaker: To which I would say, are you a lamb?
Speaker: that I need to nurture, like I need to guide.
Speaker: I do think that there is a perception that women need to behave that way.
Speaker: And I would say, I think the women that I've been fortunate enough to work with recognize the idea that I just want to be a good leader.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I'm trying to be an authentic leader that is really good at what they do.
Speaker: And so sort of making sure that they retain that in how they lead and not being
Speaker: not allowing other people's perception of what a woman leader needs to do, I think speaks volumes about them.
Speaker: Like you want any leader to have empathy.
Speaker: You want every leader to be able to
Speaker: to help navigate and again, be empathetic.
Speaker: I don't, and so I think the idea, the one thing I always tell women who are very on in their career is don't aspire to be the next Steve Jobs.
Speaker: don't aspire to be the next Jeff Bizios.
Speaker: Aspire to be a good leader, a great leader, but one that reflects who you are as a person.
Speaker: Try to be that authentic self.
Speaker: Not to the point where if your authentic self is to be disparaging to people and rude, not that version of it.
Speaker: you're respectful because I think at the end of the day you just want a leader who's going to be respectful um can help navigate and help create an environment where you can thrive yeah I think that makes a ton of sense and you know I consider some of the roles that
Speaker: I play in my own life of, you know, wife and mother.
Speaker: And I think those have maybe helped me build empathy over time as a leader.
Speaker: And at the same time, I'm so spent on nurturing by the end of the weekend that when Monday rolls around, I don't know how much more I have left in me for other people around me in a professional capacity.
Speaker: And so I
Speaker: I think that's a refreshing observation and assertion that it's not about that.
Speaker: It should not be about that.
Speaker: And it's more about your effectiveness.
Speaker: And I wanna just cover a couple of kind of quick questions here that are building on this topic a little bit.
Speaker: And so the first is to expand on likability and effectiveness.
Speaker: Do you think that organizations reward likability in a leader more or less than effectiveness?
Speaker: I think it depends on the organization.
Speaker: So organizations that are relationship-based, likability, although people won't acknowledge it that way, but I once had somebody say to me,
Speaker: why don't you smile a lot?
Speaker: It would be all right.
Speaker: Love that one.
Speaker: There is a reason not to smile.
Speaker: And I think the reason why, just going back to what we just talked about is, I do think likability, particularly if you're a woman, I think people want to make sure that you are likable, you're accessible.
Speaker: And by the way, sometimes those comments are coming from other women.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: More often than not, they're coming from other women.
Speaker: And so I do think, depending on the organization, yes, it's your likability and the perception of what that means.
Speaker: The way I translate likability
Speaker: is that if you ask me to go do something, I do it with a smile.
Speaker: I don't question you.
Speaker: And I know that's not what it means, but that's my interpretation of it.
Speaker: I think I would rather, I don't want people to dislike me, but I would like to think that this, again, just going back to what I said at the beginning of our conversation is that
Speaker: I'm credible in that I say what I'm going to do and I do it.
Speaker: I provide value to the organization and the leader.
Speaker: And I hope that translates into likability.
Speaker: But at the end of the day, I would say what to me trouts likability is respect.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because you can like me, but you may not respect me a lot.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that damages your credibility, that damages your ability to influence and navigate an organization.
Speaker: I was just reflecting on like your answer.
Speaker: Sorry, Erin, just to hop in a little bit in here.
Speaker: And it's an interesting concept.
Speaker: And I know it came up as like one of our topics that we wanted to talk about during Women's History Month, because there is this tendency to think of it as, um,
Speaker: as a as a challenge in in the career span of women but you know what i've seen it would be much more damaging is with men and they the rewarding of like interesting behaviors that appeal to a very niche um group but you see that when you see
Speaker: unhealthy behaviors get rewarded.
Speaker: I think that's really damaging across the whole organization.
Speaker: So more than like rewarding likability and effectiveness, I think there's other behaviors in the workplace that are probably more prevalent that deserve a little bit more attention.
Speaker: And I, you know, that's where you hope that like executive coaching and experience and just a few more spins around the earth will like help people get to that place.
Speaker: But I mean, that's just my take.
Speaker: And I could be like alone in thinking about this.
Speaker: But I do think in leadership, there's such a balance between not likeability necessarily, but
Speaker: when you're, if you have like a way of delivering things or dealing with things that impacts your effectiveness, no matter how much you might be bringing to the table, then it's like net negative, in my opinion.
Speaker: Yeah, I will say this though, you've ever, like I oftentimes, sometimes I'll hear people say, I really like this person, but they can't do their job.
Speaker: Really great person, love hanging around them.
Speaker: But, you know, and so, yeah, I think, I think, I do think it's an interesting proposition, if you will, right?
Speaker: You would like to think the more effective people are, the more likable they are.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't, but yeah, I've seen,
Speaker: look at it the other way around you can have people who they people don't like but they're very effective in their role and they get things done yeah one extreme is not good no but i do think it i mean i'm sure
Speaker: and seen it in your career.
Speaker: Like it happens a lot of times in sales, right?
Speaker: The brash salesperson, you know, and people like, oh, I can't say I'm working with this person.
Speaker: But they're the ones who get the deals.
Speaker: They're the ones who get it done.
Speaker: Top performer.
Speaker: Exactly, right?
Speaker: I think the question is, and now that you say this, and this again may not be fair,
Speaker: But I often hear that type of description around men.
Speaker: In other words, it's okay if a male person is a girl better.
Speaker: I don't need to like them.
Speaker: I don't know if the same applies to a woman.
Speaker: Maybe that's just my very limited experience.
Speaker: Now, I think there's a definite like differential measuring stick.
Speaker: Like I definitely think that there is.
Speaker: And, you know, it's not something that I've particularly let bother me or faze me in my career.
Speaker: I think like you, Arisa, I've been lucky to work with some like incredibly strong, thoughtful, sharp women who kind of led the way in how to conduct yourself in work.
Speaker: in business settings and how to influence without having to change who you are as a person.
Speaker: And, but I still, I still think there's a different measure for success based on like the likability.
Speaker: And, but where I see it be more of a challenge is on the male side because yeah, there's no,
Speaker: There's no limit to how off the scales some people can be if they're perceived by the right people as being productive.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And there are tons of dimensions to that too.
Speaker: I think function and role type has a lot to do with it.
Speaker: I'm having flashbacks in this moment to stepping into my first internship ever at an investment management firm and walking onto the floor.
Speaker: And most people are in suits.
Speaker: This was pre-pandemic era, people dressed up to go to work.
Speaker: And the person who was sat right next to my desk was in this like,
Speaker: like crumpled t-shirt, you know, like those like half washed commercials and a pair of sweatpants and tennis shoes.
Speaker: And I remember being sort of puzzled about that.
Speaker: My boss looked at me and goes, well, he's like a senior staff level engineer.
Speaker: He's the best one we've gotten.
Speaker: So it's okay for him to dress like that, but you can't and no one else can.
Speaker: So I think there's maybe layers of, of privilege in the way that people show up and the way that people interact.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: it's not a big deal and like no one cares really but at the same time it is it's not consistent and there's pockets of that I think you're right like all over the place um in varying degrees like and you know it goes back to it works both ways they're not dying on hills and they're not sweating small stuff um like you also you know can't be
Speaker: worried about your personal like experience like you you've got to just embrace um the position that you're in um
Speaker: I, I do think corporate America is fascinating.
Speaker: It's very different in my opinion to what the working world was like.
Speaker: Mind you, it's been 10 years plus since I was back in the UK, but it's very different to what I experienced for the first kind of
Speaker: what 15 years of my career um the politics the navigating um personalities the the charade um of certain things is it took some some getting some getting used to um have we got time for me to digress with like a funny little story
Speaker: Of course.
Speaker: So this, this was like my first, so I had always been in staffing and salesy environment, right?
Speaker: Like very, you're as good as the month you're in this type of, you know, very like powerhouse environments.
Speaker: And then I moved over to the US and I started working in corporate.
Speaker: And then I'd managed teams in staffing before and then found myself working for Erin.
Speaker: And she gave me some feedback in one of my performance reviews.
Speaker: I don't know if you'll even remember.
Speaker: You probably do remember this because I'm sure I've brought it up to you before.
Speaker: But it was...
Speaker: Amy comes to the table with great ideas and she knows it.
Speaker: And the, the real like opportunity, like you can get people from A to B, but the opportunity is like how they feel about the journey.
Speaker: And I thought that was like a really good way of putting like,
Speaker: Sometimes, Amy, you're a dev and asshole.
Speaker: No, I think the point there is that people are much more likely to buy in when they feel like the idea is theirs, or at least partially, even if it was yours all along.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: But no, I don't remember that.
Speaker: But it is making me smile because I can imagine that conversation.
Speaker: And you are brilliant.
Speaker: You come up.
Speaker: You can just look at a problem and diagnose what's wrong and what should be done about it much quicker than most people, I would venture to say.
Speaker: And there's something about that that I think is so special and that some people are maybe intimidated by.
Speaker: Well, thank you for those kind words.
Speaker: I was kind of just going to sit back and see if you had any more great things to say about me because I never get tired of hearing them.
Speaker: But no, it was a really good, it was really good feedback.
Speaker: It really helped me like understand, okay, I move quickly and sometimes I need to give like people the opportunity to,
Speaker: come along the journey with me.
Speaker: And I think that really benefited me as I kind of went on in my career.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: So as we kind of wrap up, I'd love to ask Arisa some key takeaways for our audience out there.
Speaker: What is one mindset shift that helped you to pull away from emotionally investing in decisions and outcomes at work?
Speaker: I, just that, just that, like, why am I, why do I care?
Speaker: It's really, it's, I remember a, there was an issue
Speaker: that I had.
Speaker: And I had, so we're on a call.
Speaker: We had a number of senior leaders and I said, I don't think this is a great idea.
Speaker: And they're like, why?
Speaker: And I will say this.
Speaker: Here's the thing that sometimes we forget.
Speaker: Sometimes people don't really need to ask your opinion.
Speaker: So the fact when somebody actually takes the time to ask for your opinion, that in of itself, you should appreciate.
Speaker: So they asked for my point of view and I felt a little bit strongly about this particular issue.
Speaker: And I gave three reasons why.
Speaker: Because I was closest to it.
Speaker: And every single person...
Speaker: they were above me, said, yeah, no, we're going to move forward in this other direction.
Speaker: And lo and behold, I was right.
Speaker: And so I remember the leader.
Speaker: So we ended up having to do something that I now had to take care of.
Speaker: yeah think about it this was not my idea you did what you wanted to do and now I have to go execute it and so as I I remember one of the ladies coming up to me and saying so don't you want to say it I'm like say what you know just say it like say what I told you so
Speaker: I'm like, no, you said it yourself.
Speaker: But honestly, I learned from that experience.
Speaker: One is I appreciate the fact that these senior leaders asked for my opinion.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And the other is I think they all learned from it.
Speaker: So in the future, it was, look, you want to do the right thing.
Speaker: But sometimes my mantra is no good deed goes unpunished.
Speaker: So you may want to do it, but you do it at the end.
Speaker: At the expense of other people.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And sometimes you just need to stick to the process or the policy or whatever it is that you all agreed to.
Speaker: And so my, what I always tell people is in that moment, was I disappointed?
Speaker: I was like, this is going to turn out interesting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I wasn't upset.
Speaker: I wasn't like, oh my God, I can't believe this.
Speaker: They're going to be wrong.
Speaker: They've ignored me.
Speaker: They're going to regret it.
Speaker: You know, I think the fact that these leaders took the time to get my perspective, they heard it.
Speaker: And I don't know if I would have made a different decision
Speaker: if I were in their shoes.
Speaker: And so I think it was kind of interesting moving forward.
Speaker: Like whenever we had something similar, people would, it was like, I wanted to be like, no, we're not doing that.
Speaker: But I just feel like, but I, what I learned from that is it's okay for people to hear your point of view
Speaker: And whether you're right, wrong, or indifferent, they took the time.
Speaker: Because some leaders don't even ask.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, it's true.
Speaker: And so that's my point of view, that if somebody asks you for your opinion, that's okay.
Speaker: They don't have to take it.
Speaker: But don't get... Sometimes I hear people get so upset that they're not listening to me.
Speaker: And so it's like, okay, okay.
Speaker: You can ask them why they made the decision, but if you allow your own abilities and the person that you are to get so caught up in how somebody decided to do something different than what you proposed, then
Speaker: Then I would say that's, and I, somebody's going to hold me to this.
Speaker: That's a problem, not a them problem.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You, if you're going to be successful navigating big personalities in big roles with big responsibilities, you can't have a lot of precious moments, you know, where you worry too much about
Speaker: What do they think about me now?
Speaker: Why didn't they take that, take that recommendation?
Speaker: I think one of the greatest lessons, anybody who's going from that like manager level up to dealing more with executives, particularly is like learning to disagree and commit and not take emotion into the, into it.
Speaker: will benefit you so much more.
Speaker: Otherwise you end up being like that person you mentioned before.
Speaker: I was like, oh, I hate it here.
Speaker: Go, go leave.
Speaker: Go do something else.
Speaker: I had a leader that I worked with
Speaker: And she was phenomenal.
Speaker: And I remember there was a disagreement.
Speaker: Well, not a disagreement.
Speaker: They had decided to go in one direction and they weren't sure how this leader would react.
Speaker: And everybody had assumptions about who this leader was.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: She didn't get upset.
Speaker: She didn't like the decision, but she owned it as if it was hers.
Speaker: To the point where I even forgot that that wasn't her idea.
Speaker: She embraced it.
Speaker: She came up with things that the leader hadn't even thought about.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: Honestly.
Speaker: And like, when I think about leaders who disagree and commit, she is somebody who I model myself around.
Speaker: Like she emotionally disconnected herself from decision and said, this is a business decision and this is what I'm going to do.
Speaker: And I just find that people who do that are just, they end up being really great leaders because
Speaker: part of being a leader is you may disagree with something, but you really have to own that decision as if it's yours.
Speaker: And so anyway, that I, again, I've been fortunate to work with people who are just phenomenal.
Speaker: Like I, in every single role that I've been in, I'm like,
Speaker: I'm lucky.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And also get to people like you, Amy.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, and also meaning that we're not phenomenal.
Speaker: That's my point.
Speaker: You are phenomenal.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, yeah, let's be honest.
Speaker: In every company, there's both ends of the scale and you have to take it as it comes and that's fine.
Speaker: But I think that lesson around take the emotion out of it,
Speaker: commit, like give it your best, think through, you know, okay, this is what we have ahead of us.
Speaker: How can I make this better?
Speaker: They are the most successful leaders because they are able to think much more objectively around a situation on more of a global scale, if you will, than just how this impacts me.
Speaker: Because the higher up you get,
Speaker: the less you matter.
Speaker: It's the whole that matters.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And that's just a transition that not everyone can make.
Speaker: But the ones that do, they do great things.
Speaker: And you are definitely someone, Arisa, that I look up to as someone who can see the bigger picture, asks the right questions.
Speaker: You're very good at this, like guiding thoughts, thoughts,
Speaker: so that people can come to a conclusion that feels authentic to them, but you've given them the right structure to think through a problem effectively, which, you know, that's, that's where HR people teams really come into their own is when they've got that skill, but it's not, it's not everywhere, but I love watching, watching you execute.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: What a loving guys today.
Speaker: Like so much, so much nice things said.
Speaker: Erin's little speech about me.
Speaker: I've had a couple of speeches.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: We're feeling it today.
Speaker: Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker: I've really enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker: I hope everybody who's listening has also gotten something out of it.
Speaker: We normally at this point would ask like where people can follow you or like get in touch with you.
Speaker: I mean, is the response don't?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: I'm kidding.
Speaker: You know, I just sort of, I'm not a people person.
Speaker: They can contact me on LinkedIn.
Speaker: Yeah, perfect.
Speaker: Find a reason on LinkedIn, reach out, ask her any questions.
Speaker: She'd love to connect.
Speaker: I like people.
Speaker: Let's end on that note.
Speaker: Have a good night, everyone.
Speaker: Good night.
Speaker: Thank you.
