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An Upgrade for How You Think
3 Plays2 months ago
On this episode, Erin and Amy chat with Mike Reading, Founder of RegenDesign Labs and creator of {RDT} DevAI. Mike is building a developmental thinking partner designed to strengthen executive-level thinking and entrepreneurial energy inside real work, not outside of it. We dig into how leaders actually think, make decisions, and sustain momentum when the work is complex, ambiguous, and very real.
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Transcript
Introduction to Fractional Frequency Podcast
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Our take on talent, people trends, and the reality of building up businesses in an economy that keeps rewriting the rules.
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I'm Amy Crook, founder of Strativus.
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And I'm Erin Todis, managing director of talent delivery, which basically means I live in the universe of finding the right people to make an impact for our clients fast.
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Around here, we talk about the real side of HR and talent, what works, what absolutely doesn't, and how to build teams that can carry a business, not drag it down.
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or break down trends, share the behind the scenes of scaling a consultancy from zero, and probably overshare a little because that's where the good lessons live.
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So whether you're building, hiring, leading, or just trying to keep your company profitable, you're in the right place.
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This is Fractional Frequency.
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Let's get to it.
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talked about performance.
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Tis the season.
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And as always, that bled into a broader conversation about career development, decision making, and the moments when leaders get stuck in their own heads.
Using AI for Critical Thinking in Leadership
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And that's why the conversation today with Mike reading is such a natural follow up.
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Amy has been using Mike's product as a quick access critical thinking partner, something that helps leaders sort of pressure test ideas, challenge their own assumptions.
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and move faster without spinning.
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And so this episode is really about, A, how leaders actually think through hard problems, B, why having a thinking partner matters, and C, what Mike is building to support that in a really modern, fresh, scalable way.
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And so today is not a sales pitch, but it's a real conversation about
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how work, performance, and leadership decisions actually get made.
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So let's get
Mike's Career Journey and Business Role
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to it.
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Welcome, Mike.
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Hey, thank you very much.
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Hi, Mike.
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Hey, Amy.
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How are you?
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Good, good.
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Good to have you on the show.
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Thanks.
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We're so excited you're here.
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Mike, can you tell us a little bit to kick us off?
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Tell us a little bit about who you are.
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Yes, I mean, just a LinkedIn bio, I guess.
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I've done a little bit of everything in my career, work with founders mainly now, also have this AI product we'll get into about scaling executive thinking within organizations.
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But prior to that, worked within Walmart with an organizational and leadership development and helped launch a startup out of New York in the advertising technology space before that.
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did even nonprofit social impact work before then, and also am a adjunct professor in an MBA program for business and city systems.
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I got an undergrad in humanities and then got a master's in humanities and still didn't get things figured out.
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So I got an MBA and then a doctorate in a transformational leadership, emphasis in cultural transformation.
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So that's a little bit about where I'm coming from.
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I like to think about thinking and I wanna do that for a living.
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Phenomenal.
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I'm glad I don't have to follow that with any kind of an introduction of myself.
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I don't know what to say about me.
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Like, I don't know.
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Oh, that's enough.
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So Mike, just an incredible diverse set of experiences.
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Tell us a little bit about what you've been building.
Real-time Decision-making with AI Tools
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Yeah, so I've been, one, it's kind of the integration of like the degrees aren't just because I wanted some letters behind a name.
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It was really just a nagging problem that bothered me since college about how do we think about our thinking in real time in order to upgrade its quality, bring it back to life again for each new time and unique set of circumstances in each place.
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And so it's been that journey turned into, okay, how do we then make this where I'm not the bottleneck person that does it through traditional teaching or delivery methods?
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How do we scale it with what AI makes possible?
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And with that, it's been able to look at how does you have a real-time thinking partner
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That doesn't do the work for you or tell you what to do, but helps develop the quality of your perception and of your thought and the quality of your decision making initiative in real time with real work as you go.
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So it's not disruptive.
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It's not something else you do on the side.
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It's woven into your everyday rhythms of work that you already do.
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And how were you inspired to develop this?
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Tell us a little bit
Regenerative Design Thinking in Business
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more about that.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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I'll nerd out for a minute.
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So the framework behind it is just a type of design thinking.
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Design thinking just at its core is just a discipline of like being intentional about shaping all the stuff that goes into action before you just jump to execution.
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So you've got a lot of design thinking that emphasizes process,
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and continuous improvement like lean.
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You've got human centered that looks at, you know, let's make sure the decisions that we make with the input we have works for the user, works for the customer.
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What regenerative design thinking is, is a little bit different.
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Instead of looking at the performance of the parts or the people that are in the process, it looks like how do we develop and activate the potential of the whole?
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And the way I think about it is when we think of regeneration, it's really common in agriculture.
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People realize and companies said, man, it's really hard to get our ROI and our financial performance up.
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The more we work against the living system of the plant and the environment that it's planted in, all the pesticides we throw at it, all the forced growth methods, it really just either ruins the plant itself or it ruins the soil and life around it.
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Instead of trying to extract from the potential of these living things to maximize our quick return, what if we actually worked with the potential and developed the potential of the plant, of the place the plant belongs to, in order to help get our returns both now and in the long term.
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So that's what regeneration is.
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And about 1990s, it's been a movement of like, okay, well, people, we're living systems too, right?
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And the work that we do together creates another living system.
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So why can't we take that same idea of working with the potential inside of us and our systems and develop that in order to achieve results instead of this unit of production, extracting, driven, optimizing things.
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that really erodes our ability to make clear decisions, activate our own self authorship, our own sense of clarity and perception that is necessary to do high quality work.
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I think that's so
Critical Thinking Tools in Remote Work
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key.
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And I think the more that, you know, technology advances and problems and strategies to solve them get over-engineered, the more we're realizing that, you know, we need to just cut things back and make things simple.
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And it just makes me think about like the real problem that we are facing when we're looking at design thinking or critical thinking.
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is that number one, when you get stuck, it's really hard to unstick yourself when you're alone.
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And that thinking alone component is prevalent across multiple levels now, because we've got more people than ever working remotely and independently.
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And more people unwilling to kind of
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take a risk on making themselves look vulnerable.
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And so then you find people making decisions in a vacuum or just typing it into a bog standard LLM and hoping that the answer that it spits out is something remotely close to what you were kind of thinking or hoping to get to rather than challenging ourselves with questions that help us think through
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What are we really trying to achieve and what is going to help us move forward?
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So I think like that's a good segue into like more detail around like what you've built and what it does, just in like simple terms for our listeners.
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Yeah, so what it does, instead of going into a reactive execute, ready, fire, aim, it kind of pauses you between the ready and the aim.
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And it kind of fills back the layer of your thoughts in real time.
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It's really a thinking partner, a mirror that challenges and intervenes not at the place of decision,
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but at the place of input.
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So if we're looking at like a work stream, you really hit just like an input, what you receive, decision made, action, result.
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Performance really nails down the action result dynamic, but that relationship between input and decision
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is really where reality is defined, meaning is made, and that's where what's possible and the choices available are formed that really precede the decision that you make at the end of the day.
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And so what it does is it slows down and says, let's not just jump right into action.
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Let's reflect on the quality of input
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Is it, are the assumptions correct?
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Is the mindset, the framework you're bringing to it the right one?
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And then is the decision then that you're making based on reality or is it based off of thoughting someone else's thinking from the past or your own past experience, but doesn't fit this time and this place and this set of circumstances.
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So it really intervenes not so much at the place of action or even decision first, but it says, let's look at the input first to make sure that the reality we're engaging,
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changing so fast now let's make sure that the reality is real that you're making your decisions off of first then we'll make sure the decisions are high quality decisions that actually create the result you're wanting and that is the key the quality of the decision and thinking it through not just taking you know the quickest possible
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route to the end game.
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It's funny because with the World Economic Fair that's just been taking place, I remember a year ago when it happened, all the senior leaders I knew were like rushing back, like, it's all about, you know, automation, jobs are going, move quicker, fire everyone, let's do everything's AI.
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And I remember feeling like that's not my impression at all.
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And I think the longer we sit with this, the more that like ethical applications and human experience and valuable
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ideas, new ideas, not regurgitated ideas are going to become more important.
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And that I was worried, and I know Mike, you and I had talked about this too, that we were going to end up with a whole generation of people in the workforce that had no critical thinking skills, because every time a question crosses their desk that
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is a little tricky instead of like thinking it through or having a conversation with a co-worker or peer.
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They're just putting it into an LLM, getting the answer and moving on because everything's speed, speed, speed, speed.
Amy's Experience with AI Tool for Pricing Decisions
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And then I've noticed as people have been coming back from Davos this time, it's like, well, you know, it might've been a bit hasty last year and maybe we need to rethink a few things.
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Ethical implications are really important.
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And I'm like, okay, good.
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We've all calmed down a little bit and we've all like had a little bit of reality juice over the past 12 months and realized that we can't just plug this in and switch our brains off.
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Like we have to still be able to bring something to the table.
00:12:17
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Yeah.
00:12:18
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So thinking about that, like what makes what you're building different to like traditional mentoring and coaching?
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Because I think we've well covered how it's different to traditional AI tools because it
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it definitely encourages more thought going into the outcome that you're looking for.
00:12:44
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But what's the win here over traditional coaching and mentoring?
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Yeah, well, I know.
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Humbly would say probably it's not a win over.
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It's maybe a compliment supplement, but at the basic school premise, it's, you know, a lot of coaching, mentoring is reserved for the elite few.
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Like you said, the executives.
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So it's not really accessible.
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It's not really affordable and it's not scalable to the middle managers and to the middle leadership.
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And the crux of most of our organizational issues come with that middle system blindness.
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Our middle leadership are the highest pressure, most demand.
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They're supposed to translate top-down OKRs and the bottom-up KPIs.
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Gallup says they're also the most actively disengaged because we don't help them develop that transition in leadership from action-result thinking
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to input decision thinking.
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And they're just kind of in the middle and treading water.
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And so we're seeing that in real time where there's disengaging and falling away.
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What this does as tools, it takes that quality of coaching and mentoring and does it makes it affordable, makes it accessible to everyone in the moment with real work 24 seven.
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and scalable throughout the organization at the price.
00:14:04
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Because it's really, you know, in terms of pricing and all that, it's comparable to like a library of content, but it's a lot more alive and dynamic because it engages your work.
00:14:14
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But in terms of its approach, how it's different than coaching and mentoring.
00:14:18
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You know, I did some addictive coaching still with a couple of different institutions and ICF.
00:14:24
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Coaching really says, okay, you bring the input to us.
00:14:27
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We help improve the quality of your decision making.
00:14:31
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this tool and this approach design thinking says let's intervene first at the place of input to make sure that that's high quality, to make sure your decisions are sound.
00:14:39
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And mentoring is good, but you're also relying on someone else's pre-processed reality, pre-determined outcomes and says, you know, here's what we've
00:14:48
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Based on my experience, here's what you're going through.
00:14:51
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Here's what your choices available are.
00:14:54
Speaker
And so you're kind of using still someone else's roadmap to navigate your unique circumstance.
00:15:01
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And it has a place, but it's limited.
00:15:03
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And what this tool does, it helps you understand your own unique journey, your own place in your organization, your own role.
00:15:11
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And the reality and the unfolding pressures around you in real time and says, what's a signal to move on?
00:15:18
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And what's just noise?
00:15:20
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Yeah, no, I totally agree.
00:15:23
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And I think, you know, if you'll humor me a moment, Erin, I just want to just, I know I talked to you at length about this like previously, but just to share like my experience, like when I trialed it,
00:15:40
Speaker
And I it actually was really great because when Mike sent it to me, he had a couple of prompts to kind of get me in the flow of how it works, because I'm sure I'm like most people on the planet and have been using an LLM for a couple of years now.
00:15:59
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And I'm
00:16:00
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This is very different because as we've said a couple of times, you normally put in a question or request and your prompt will just push back like either one or three options for here's the answer.
00:16:15
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And this is a very different style of interacting with the technology because it's
00:16:22
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it comes back at you with things to think about.
00:16:26
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So I really used it as kind of a thought partner when I was struggling to come to a conclusion that I didn't necessarily just need a quick like, okay, when I was thinking about like what to give an analogy for, for like LLM,
00:16:49
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and I use ChatGPT, it's like, do you remember when you first got access through like Word to the thesaurus tool?
00:16:58
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And it's like, oh, this word doesn't sound like super impressive.
00:17:02
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I'm gonna go on the thesaurus and just see what else I can do.
00:17:05
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Like ChatGPT is great for that.
00:17:07
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Like just fancy this up, polish this up, give me a quick like, you know, make this look better or give me like some, you know, format it in this way, make it this size, that kind of thing.
AI vs Traditional Coaching for Leaders
00:17:17
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But if you need to have like more of an in-depth discussion, I actually find myself getting a bit frustrated with ChatTPT most of the time because it has its own assumptions and opinions that are not necessarily in line with my own.
00:17:31
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So I really found it refreshing to use your tool where the not an answer was pushed back at me, but more like digging into the question behind it.
00:17:44
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And most specifically,
00:17:47
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I had a question around pricing on something.
00:17:54
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And rather than going through just like the usual research methods, you know, I'm part of a few communities and this, that, and the other, I was like, I'm going to kind of talk this through with my little new friend here.
00:18:06
Speaker
And, you know, it really got to the bottom of kind of where my reservations were around like some of the pricing components.
00:18:16
Speaker
And it became a little bit like a therapy session, honestly.
00:18:20
Speaker
It was so helpful in terms of like how we value the work that we do rather than valuing it, you know, just pound for pound like you would do
00:18:33
Speaker
a steak it's like what's the impact worth like what impact are you bringing to the table it really made me think about that and that uh clarification was pretty inspiring i remember like immediately i sent like the response to erin so that we could both just be like we should think about this a little differently um
00:18:55
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And it was a nice little lesson to learn.
00:18:59
Speaker
And I wouldn't have gotten that from a traditional LLM because we wouldn't have gotten to that dialogue because they would have been like, they'd have scraped a bazillion websites and been like, most people price point here.
00:19:12
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And then that would have been it.
00:19:14
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That would have just been the end of the conversation.
00:19:16
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Outsource your authority and your thinking.
00:19:18
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Yeah.
00:19:20
Speaker
I love how you said it was almost like a therapeutic thing.
00:19:23
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I mean, obviously it's not therapy at all, but what it does function off of, like regeneration, is the idea that the potential inside the living person or plant, whatever, is enough.
00:19:35
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It's enough for this time.
00:19:37
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It's enough for this set of circumstances.
00:19:38
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We just have to activate it because it's latent and we need to develop it and express it.
00:19:43
Speaker
And so it feels natural.
00:19:44
Speaker
It feels like it's you versus a high performer.
00:19:47
Speaker
And I was the ultimate high performer before I kind of had a,
00:19:51
Speaker
crisis of thinking for myself and realizing, oh, you know, it felt empty of like, I was just, you know, repeating someone else's thoughts and impact.
00:20:00
Speaker
And I was like, I was exceeding on things without value in some ways.
00:20:03
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And so being able to activate your own source.
00:20:07
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for authorship of agency of, you know, your quality of attention matters, your perception matters, the clarity and you being placed there for a reason is brought to light through that tool.
00:20:20
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So I loved your experience with that because that's what we want or what I want that experience to feel like for people.
00:20:25
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It's just uncovering what's already there because you're already enough for this moment.
00:20:30
Speaker
Oh, I love that.
00:20:31
Speaker
It's so beautiful.
00:20:32
Speaker
And it fits so perfectly for the time that we're in.
00:20:35
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And, you know, I think about Erin and I as, you know, leaders in a small startup that don't necessarily have, you know, the time and bandwidth to like,
00:20:49
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get on each of this calendar at the right moment or, you know, there's nobody else around to call sometimes.
00:20:57
Speaker
Like if you're a fractional leader or an independent leader, like it's so beneficial to have something that's just a little bit more probing onto who you are.
00:21:11
Speaker
to help you get to that conclusion.
00:21:13
Speaker
And, you know, then like, as we've said in organizations where you don't have access to that level of development from a coach or a mentor, for me personally, you know, having experienced, you know, a wide range of executive coaching, mentorships, it was just perfect amount for what I needed at the time and just readily on hand.
00:21:42
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And that's, you know, what people need, you know, for me, I mean, look at it right now, it's 7.30 at night for me, 8.30 at night for Erin.
00:21:53
Speaker
Like if I was, you know, working on something in a time with other people, I wouldn't be bugging them at this time of night, you know?
00:22:05
Speaker
But if I have something that I can just bounce an idea off, like it helps because...
00:22:11
Speaker
Work now we are trying to fit around our lives.
00:22:16
Speaker
And it's not like we were doing this recording at nighttime because we're like crazy obsessive.
00:22:22
Speaker
Like we do it because we're, you know, fitting around schedules with kids.
00:22:27
Speaker
You know, like you've got to you've got to maximize the time when your kids are home and before they go to bed.
00:22:34
Speaker
Like you don't want to miss out on that time.
00:22:36
Speaker
And so then you come back to it a little bit later.
00:22:39
Speaker
And it's great to have something that you can can kind of tap into that.
00:22:44
Speaker
So I guess like after all this discussion, if we just like zoom back out a little bit, Erin, you've been sat there quietly listening to me and Mike talk.
00:22:54
Speaker
Like what's your take on how like the leadership landscape is changing at the moment and why access to this like, you know, good thinking, critical thinking matters now like more than ever?
00:23:09
Speaker
I think a couple of things, and I'm thinking back to what it felt like to be sort of a middle level leader on the inside of corporate America.
00:23:20
Speaker
I think that, one, it's a lonely place a lot of times, particularly within HR functions, because you have to balance sort of access to leveraging your peers for idea generation and feedback with keeping a lot of the problems that are on your desk confidential.
00:23:39
Speaker
And then as you look up, right, you're battling this sort of balance between, you know, do I lean on my leader for help or does that make me show up in a certain way?
00:23:50
Speaker
And having to think through the consequences, right, of leaning there.
00:23:55
Speaker
So you've got this sort of balancing act on one hand.
00:23:59
Speaker
And then I think there's also this just
00:24:02
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demand for optimal productivity and to move incredibly fast.
00:24:08
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And so there's this weight on your shoulders of I've got to make an intelligent, creative decision and it's got to be made right now.
00:24:17
Speaker
And so I don't have time always to go and seek feedback from all the sources I'd like to.
00:24:23
Speaker
And so I think about a tool like this as really
00:24:27
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really enabling and enabling sort of lost middle level leaders, senior leaders who, you know, don't have a lot of time and access at all times, right, to think through with a strong thought partner and to maintain confidentiality and have sort of a trusted sounding board.
AI's Transformative Impact on the Workplace
00:24:50
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Yeah, I agree.
00:24:53
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So,
00:24:54
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Mike, what are you excited about next as you move forward with this exciting new tool?
00:25:02
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Well, I am excited, oddly enough, for the other AI tools to launch and become more profitable.
00:25:09
Speaker
I know right now a lot of the gen AI initiatives think, like I said, 95% aren't really functioning yet.
00:25:14
Speaker
But soon we're going to see the future of work
00:25:18
Speaker
It's going to be this super agency relationship between people and AI.
00:25:25
Speaker
And again, if you look at kind of that work stream of input decision, action result, AI's place of thriving is going to be for now, at least in that action result.
00:25:35
Speaker
And so that speed, that quick decision, all the stuff that we, the performance stuff is going to become more increasingly automated, but still uniquely human that we bring to the work we do.
00:25:47
Speaker
and what's going to become our role in this relationship, we'll be really honing in on the input and decisions.
00:25:54
Speaker
So we're not just making work slop or outputs waste streams at a faster rate because it's automated, but we're now responsible to say, okay, we are the people who...
00:26:06
Speaker
actually make sure that the input is high quality and is reality.
00:26:10
Speaker
And, you know, looking at the meaning we're making from that, you know, the assumptions we bring to it, and then making sure the decisions that we are leaning into and shaping and refining what AI does are the right decisions.
00:26:24
Speaker
So I think this is where...
00:26:26
Speaker
work needed to be going, I think, for a while.
00:26:28
Speaker
I think AI is going to amplify that need.
00:26:30
Speaker
It's also going to shift us away from being more than just units of production to people who actually are able to perceive what's happening around them
00:26:42
Speaker
make meaning from it, gather understanding and insight and make the right decisions.
00:26:48
Speaker
And I think it's gonna be leading to more fulfilling work, frankly.
00:26:50
Speaker
So I'm excited for that.
00:26:51
Speaker
And I'm excited that this tool and this process is positioned to help people learn how to bring that quality of thinking about their level of thinking in real time to the work that they're doing.
00:27:05
Speaker
Yeah, totally.
00:27:07
Speaker
Use the technology for good people.
00:27:10
Speaker
Like use it to give more time to your human beings that have got brilliant, creative and wonderful capabilities to really enhance like your product, your organization, whatever it might be.
00:27:30
Speaker
And then, you know, lean on this technology for, um,
00:27:36
Speaker
for the efficiencies in the areas that were time consuming historically, but didn't necessarily require brain waves to move forward.
00:27:48
Speaker
I think about what my day looked like when I first stepped into the workplace.
00:27:58
Speaker
And I think about what it looks like now, the pace
00:28:03
Speaker
has changed incredibly.
00:28:05
Speaker
The tools that I have access to has changed incredibly.
00:28:10
Speaker
And the more time that I have to actually spend with people, getting creative and making the workplace better, which obviously, you know, coming from HR, it's really important to me that
00:28:27
Speaker
you know, doing right by people and giving them the avenues that they need to be successful is just so, so important to me.
00:28:39
Speaker
So I'm right there with you.
00:28:41
Speaker
I just, you know, my wish is that for, you know, everybody to look through that same lens of being thoughtful how it's applied and where it's applied.
00:28:55
Speaker
And where we still make space for the brilliance that lies within the workforce in our humans.
00:29:09
Speaker
So, okay.
00:29:10
Speaker
I feel like that's a good place to wrap.
Enhancing Human Creativity with Technology
00:29:14
Speaker
Where can people learn more about you, Mike?
00:29:18
Speaker
Go to region design labs.com and they can learn all about the method, the tool, a little bit about me.
00:29:26
Speaker
Also, we have a LinkedIn page as well.
00:29:28
Speaker
You can check that out, but yeah, I'd love for them to, if they want to learn more, go there and just shoot me an email and we'll talk.
00:29:37
Speaker
Awesome.
00:29:38
Speaker
Any more final thoughts, Mike, Aaron?
00:29:42
Speaker
I don't think so.
00:29:43
Speaker
It's been a great conversation.
00:29:44
Speaker
Thank you, Mike.
00:29:46
Speaker
Thank you all.
00:29:46
Speaker
Yeah, I just want to reiterate, like you said, like we're in a unique time finally, you know, where we can maybe stop being so reactive in our work mode and we can be more purposeful and to steward technology in a way that we're not competing.
00:30:01
Speaker
with another tool to be more reactive at a faster rate than they are, but to use it and steward it in a way that we are allowed to be more purposeful and intentional and, like you said, uniquely human.
00:30:10
Speaker
Like this is, it's not, you know, doom and gloom.
00:30:13
Speaker
I think it's a gift that it carries responsibility, mind you, but it is a gift that we can now shift maybe from being reactive to being purposeful with a part of our lives that takes up 60% of our days, which is our career.
00:30:26
Speaker
Yeah.
00:30:27
Speaker
Yeah, I totally agree.
00:30:29
Speaker
And, and honestly, I told us such a wonderful job of facilitating that for people that need that or desire that muscle to be continuously like tapped into when it comes to critical thinking and leaning into our own ideas.
00:30:49
Speaker
Awesome.
00:30:50
Speaker
Thanks for coming and having a chat with us, Mike.
00:30:53
Speaker
Hope you have a good evening.
00:30:55
Speaker
You too.
00:30:55
Speaker
I appreciate it.
00:30:56
Speaker
And Erin, nice to meet you finally.
00:31:02
Speaker
In podcast form.
00:31:03
Speaker
She is real.
00:31:04
Speaker
She is real.
00:31:05
Speaker
Thank you all so much.
00:31:07
Speaker
I appreciate it.
00:31:08
Speaker
Thanks.
00:31:09
Speaker
Take care.
00:31:09
Speaker
You too.