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Authentic Leadership: What It Really Takes (and Costs) with Jacob Little
3 Plays1 month ago
“Authentic leadership” gets thrown around a lot.
But when it’s inconvenient? When it risks power or when it costs you comfort? Do you still choose it?
In this episode Amy and Erin sit down with Jacob Little, a leader who has shaped careers, built psychological safety at scale, and led with conviction even when it wasn’t the easy path.
This isn’t a conversation about being likable.
It’s about congruence between who you are and how you decide, the difference between vulnerability and leading vulnerably, the real risk of showing up fully. Especially in senior roles. Why authenticity requires discipline, not just openness, and how AI is increasing the premium on distinctly human leadership.
We unpack the hard edges: when authenticity feels risky, the tension between transparency and oversharing, the pressure to “play the role,” what high performers must unlearn when they step into leadership, and why values don’t earn you credit, they hold you accountable.
Honest. Reflective. Practical. No leadership theater. Just the real work.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and HR Insights
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our take on talent, people trends, and the reality of building up businesses in an economy
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of Stratibus.
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And I'm Erin Todis, Managing Director of Talent Delivery, which basically means I live in the universe of finding the right people to make an impact for our clients fast.
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Around here, we talk about the real side of HR and talent, what works, what absolutely doesn't, and how to build teams that can carry a business, not drag it down.
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The breakdown trends share the behind the scenes of scaling a consultancy from zero and probably overshare a little because that's where the good lessons live.
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So whether you're building, hiring, leading, or just trying to keep your company profitable, you're in the right place.
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This is Fractional Frequency.
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Let's get to it.
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too because that tonight we are joined by someone who has like honestly had such a huge impact on my career um
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They were the person who showed me how to lead with my whole heart and also gave me everything I needed to not only be successful in my work product, but to make sure that those around me felt really good about it.
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And so I would like to introduce Jacob Little.
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Hello, Erin.
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Hello, Amy.
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Thank you for having me.
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Thank you so much for coming on.
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And tell us, Jacob, how do you and Amy know each other?
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Yeah, so let me set the stage for you.
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I had just joined Glassdoor about a year prior in late 2019, leading the L&D team, and I inherited a team of two people.
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A year later, almost the entire recruiting team resigned and the chief people officer gave me the team and basically said, rebuild the team and lead recruiting now.
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And I had no idea what I was doing.
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I had never, I barely even hired somebody, much less led a recruiting team.
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And the great resignation starts at the same time.
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So it was a super fun time for me.
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And I urgently needed to hire somebody who knew what they were doing.
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And Amy, you were that person.
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And the best decision I ever made at Glassdoor.
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So Amy came onto the team and really quickly fixed the broken process, hired a kick-ass team reporting to her.
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and started exceeding every metric and goal that I gave her.
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So Amy, I'm so proud of you and so honored to have this conversation with you today.
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Thank you.
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That's so kind.
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Thank you so much.
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Yeah, it was a crazy time.
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It really was because like every other week, it seemed like
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We were getting like memos, like we're increasing the hiring for this team by 70%.
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It's like, really for when?
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Like, well, we want to do it in the next quarter.
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Like, oh, great.
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But it was a lot of fun.
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And it was like, honestly, the best time.
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Like I look back on that year and as crazy as it was, it was my favorite time at Gloucester for sure.
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So what have you been... Yeah, it was one of those times where the right people were doing really meaningful work at the right time.
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Yeah.
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And we all just bonded so well.
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Yeah, that's so true.
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Yeah, everybody was just like kicking ass.
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Like we were just, it was so great.
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It was so great.
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What have you been focused
AI's Impact on Leadership
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on lately?
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Yeah.
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I typically find an element of transformation in whatever role that I'm in.
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So we will talk about what transformation looked like at Glassdoor.
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Lately, I've been really interested in how AI is transforming the workplace and the people function.
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So I really want to have a voice in the topic.
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And so I went back to school.
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I went to Berkeley and got a graduate certification in artificial intelligence and learned...
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How to make organizations ready for artificial intelligence and kind of the human mindset and behavior change that's required to start taking advantage of what AI can do for businesses.
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So that's something I'm thinking a lot about lately and something that's actually changing what leadership looks like as well.
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So maybe we can get into that a little bit.
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Yeah, no.
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So I feel like with AI, I'm going to say this the wrong way, but I think a lot of organizations put the cart before the horse and it's like only now are they truly investigating impact and what success metrics are applicable to how you implement AI.
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So I think it's awesome the more people can educate themselves around what the capabilities truly are, what the ethical impacts are, and how it does change the structure of your organization.
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So it's super cool that you're doing that.
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And yeah, so Erin and I talked about making a podcast around innovation
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you know, great leadership.
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And, and so when we talked about authentic leadership, I thought about you.
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And so we're really happy to have you here.
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And I'm just going to kick it over to Aaron to ask a few of the questions that came up for us when we were thinking about this topic.
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And of course, the first question that I think we might have even said at the same time was, what does that actually mean?
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Authentic leadership gets thrown around a lot.
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But Jacob, maybe tell us a little bit about that.
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What does it actually look like in practice?
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Yeah, I think for me, authentic leadership is when somebody knows who they are and who they say they are shows up in their actions and decisions, especially when those actions or decisions are inconvenient.
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That's when character and principle are really tested in those moments where it's inconvenient to stay true to yourself.
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Yeah.
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So for me, what that meant practically was leading with my story and helping people understand the why behind I do what I do.
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It's really important to me, and it has been my whole career, that my work is a reflection of my values and who I am.
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And so when I share my story and what drives me, I think it helps people think about their story
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and what they're passionate about and helps them plug in their story to a larger vision.
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To add a little context to my story, I was raised in a really sort of fundamentalist religious missionary family.
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And I spent most of my life kind of moving around to different places in the world, Russia and Europe and back to the US and layer into that, the experience of being a closeted queer kid where coming out meant
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ostracism from my family, being expelled from my schools, being fired from my first job.
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And so when I finally had the space to be my authentic self in the workplace, I really felt the difference that it made for me.
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And I have a passion for
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creating spaces of psychological safety and belonging for those behind me so they don't have to experience what I did.
Authenticity and Leadership
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And so that part of my story lends itself really well to a people and a people experience role because at its core, we're creating the conditions for people to be their best selves in the workplace.
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And that has a direct impact on the levels of engagement and the contributions and the output they make.
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And the business benefits from that.
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So that was my why.
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And it helped people connect their why to what we were doing and build a sense of camaraderie and vision.
00:08:51
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And I love, we've talked quite a bit about leading with your story and your vulnerability, but we've also talked about creating space for others to shine and particularly for those who are within your organization.
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Talk to us a little bit about that.
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What does that actually look like as a leader?
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Yeah, well, to go back to the story of hiring Amy, I was very transparent with everybody that I did not know a lot about recruiting.
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I was very much on a learning curve.
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And so when I hired Amy, she was very clearly the smartest person in the room when it came to talent acquisition.
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And for me to pretend...
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You were an expert in your craft, Amy.
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And so for me to pretend that I should know more about recruiting than Amy because she's reporting to me, that would not have been an authentic way for me to show up.
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And so, you know, Amy, I really looked for ways to make you shine, to showcase your TA expertise, because...
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because I needed you to.
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And it was a good reflection on me as a leader that I could bring in somebody of your caliber to lead the function.
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So it was really easy for me to give you time to shine, to create opportunities for you to share your work, to demonstrate my confidence in you so that that could be emulated by the business leaders that you supported.
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And it was really cool to see you shine and then to pass that along to your team.
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Yeah, it was great.
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It was, it, it worked so well.
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And honestly, it was so refreshing to have a leader who was comfortable enough and grounded enough in what they brought to the table that they weren't trying to take, you know, take my work and repackage it or, you
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um because you know that happens in in workplaces you know when you're reporting up to somebody and they ask you to put something together but you get the little message that like oh this really needs to come from me and you're like okay that's fine um and so it was like a whole new world like reporting into you because you were like
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okay, this is the problem statement.
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I know you're going to work through it.
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And so this is who we'll be meeting with to kind of talk through it.
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And that was really awesome because you got me a seat at the table and you got me in front of people that would, you know, later on have a big say in if I got a promotion or not.
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And because they had witnessed me in person and they knew me and
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I wasn't just a name on a document.
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they advocated for me and so but no one as strongly as you which is awesome but yeah I definitely felt that I definitely felt that you were creating the space and giving me the room and trusting me to make the right call and so that just it just made a huge difference because then I felt like I could spread my wings a little bit and I wasn't
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confined to my virtual cubicle of outputs.
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So yeah, I can definitely attest to Jacob's skill there for sure.
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And I think it takes quite a bit of courage to show up with vulnerability as a leader and maybe in a different way than it is to show up with vulnerability as an individual contributor.
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And so maybe we can spend a little bit of time on that, Jacob.
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What changes when you move from maybe senior or manager level up to leadership in leading with vulnerability?
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Yeah, I think sometimes people conflate being vulnerable with being open.
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And there's a very different, it's a very different thing.
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Openness is sort of the willingness to tell your story.
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And vulnerability is the willingness to let others be a part of it.
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And that's the job of a leader is to enlist people in their shared vision.
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to help them see themselves in the vision and their contribution.
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And vulnerability costs something.
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I can be open until the cows come home, but I'm not being vulnerable until it really feels risky that I'm getting it going out on a ledge.
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And so, you know, I think vulnerable people can admit to a mistake.
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But that's not enough if you're a leader.
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A vulnerable leader admits to a mistake and takes it to the next level by sharing what they learned.
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A vulnerable person can ask for help, but a vulnerable leader can ask for help and then commit to learning what you need help with.
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A vulnerable person shows emotion, but a vulnerable leader can't just show emotion.
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They have to practice self-awareness to be conscientious of how that comes across to the team and the impact it can have.
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Because as the leader, your mood controls the weather for everyone else downstream.
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A vulnerable person can say, I don't know, but a vulnerable leader has to say, I don't know, but I have an idea or a plan to figure it out.
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Mm-hmm.
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And a vulnerable person can talk about personal challenges or struggles, but a vulnerable leader talks about those for the purpose of connecting, of creating trust, of building empathy and relatability.
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It's not a therapy session.
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Yeah.
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I love your bit about your mood sort of dictates the weather and maybe like, what does that feel like?
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It sounds like you've definitely had times where maybe you've felt one way, but you've had to show up a little bit differently in front of your team in just being conscious of that.
00:15:04
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What does that feel like on the inside as a leader?
00:15:07
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Well, I think as a leader, whenever you show emotion, I ask myself to what end, what's my goal by showing this emotion?
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And if I have a constructive goal, whether it's, um,
00:15:23
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to build a connection, to show somebody, to let my guard down and show somebody that I'm human too, or to empathize with something they're going through, or to give constructive feedback.
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Emotion expressed as a leader has to have a goal, a constructive goal.
00:15:42
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If it doesn't have a constructive goal, keep it to yourself.
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Vulnerability is not about sharing everything that you're going through.
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It has to have a goal.
00:15:52
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That makes a ton of sense.
00:15:54
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And I feel like, you know, as I think about leaders that I've worked with or under in the past, you know, some I think are good at this and are really authentic and others really struggle to show up authentically.
00:16:06
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And so I'm curious for your perspective about whether that's learned or innate.
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Can people learn how to be an authentic leader?
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Yeah.
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You know, one of my favorite television stars, Mama RuPaul, the host of RuPaul's Drag Race, says that we're all born naked and the rest is drag.
00:16:28
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Love that.
00:16:29
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So let me reach and apply it to this podcast.
00:16:34
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I think we're all bored our authentic self.
00:16:38
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As a child, there is no filter, there is no pretense, there is no mask.
00:16:43
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We are authentically ourselves.
00:16:44
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And anyone who has had kids, and Erin, maybe you can vouch for this, they come out of the womb with a little personality.
00:16:51
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Mm-hmm.
00:16:53
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They sure do.
00:16:54
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And I have often heard it said that the task of our adult lives is to rediscover the authenticity that we had as a child.
00:17:04
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So yes, I believe authenticity can be learned.
00:17:08
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I believe we're born authentic and we actually learn not to be authentic through the traumas and challenges that life throws at us.
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And if you want to rediscover your authenticity, there's a couple elements to it that are hard work to cultivate.
00:17:26
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To be authentic, you have to be self-aware.
00:17:29
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You have to understand your strengths, your weaknesses, how you impact others.
00:17:34
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you have to have relational transparency, being honest and open, being genuine in how you communicate, being like really understanding who you are and showing up as that person rather than acting out a role.
00:17:50
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Empathy is a crucial skill.
00:17:53
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And that means...
00:17:55
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cultivating and gathering and factoring in other viewpoints aside from your own when making decisions.
00:18:02
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There's, you have to have a sort of moral perspective and philosophy that guides your decisions and behaviors, particularly in difficult situations.
00:18:12
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And then consistency in aligning your actions with your core values.
00:18:18
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When you are known as an authentic leader,
00:18:21
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That is a responsibility and you have to be consistent when people are watching and when people aren't watching.
00:18:30
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There's no off-ramp because it compromises your authenticity if you take a break from it.
00:18:35
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100%.
00:18:37
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Yeah.
00:18:37
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It makes a ton of sense.
00:18:40
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What would you say, how do you check in with yourself around your own authenticity, Jacob, as you're sort of operating in a leadership role?
00:18:49
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A lot of times you can get swept up in the work.
00:18:51
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What are some tactics that you use to check in and just kind of pressure test if you're showing up in a way that you aspire to?
00:19:02
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Yeah.
00:19:02
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I mean, unfortunately, we live in a world and we operate in a
00:19:08
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in a society, in a business world that sometimes makes it seem like we have to compromise on our values or our principles.
00:19:17
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And it can be really hard to navigate that, particularly as you get higher in an organization and you have to align with company direction sometimes.
00:19:29
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You have to be the voice of the company.
00:19:31
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And sometimes that comes at the expense of your own voice.
00:19:37
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And so for me, I try to really pause and just like center myself on what is the situation?
00:19:51
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What is my authentic values-driven take on it?
00:19:56
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How do I frame it in a way that's true to me and will resonate with my audience?
Values and Decision-Making
00:20:01
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You know, I heard a quote once that really stuck with me and said, the difference between hope and despair is learning how to tell a different story with the same facts.
00:20:17
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So how can I take the facts of whatever's happening
00:20:22
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and tell a story using those facts, being true to them, but in a way that's true to me as well and true to my values.
00:20:33
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I think there are tough decisions to be made in life and in business where it's important to stand on principles and to not do so would risk compromising who you are.
00:20:46
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And so to me, that speaks to the importance of really working at a company that aligns with your personal values and doing work that's a reflection of what's important to you.
00:20:55
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And that's always what I've tried to cultivate in my career is doing work that connects to who I am and the story and the legacy that I want to leave.
00:21:06
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I think I love them.
00:21:07
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Sorry, Erin.
00:21:08
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Yeah, I was going to say the same thing.
00:21:10
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Go ahead, though.
00:21:10
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I just, I love that the reframing piece, because that is so critical.
00:21:19
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You know, the facts are the facts, but how you share the message can be different.
00:21:28
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And just to go back to what you said earlier around
00:21:32
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when you're in a leadership position, you set the weather.
00:21:37
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And so if you, if you, you know, it's like pick your path, like you want to keep it as calm as possible.
00:21:49
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Um,
00:21:51
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creating mass hysteria has never gotten any team into a good spot.
00:21:56
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So it's so important to have that skill of, you know, staying true to the facts and thinking about that delivery, thinking about that framing so that you haven't made the weather a category five hurricane, you know?
00:22:18
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Maybe it's raining.
00:22:20
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But like we don't need to make it worse.
00:22:22
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And I think so I think that's a really, a really important skill for leaders to have in the communication, you know, knowing, knowing how to frame something even if it's not good news.
00:22:39
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Yeah.
00:22:40
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I think there's an aspect to leadership where you're sort of the bulwark against the storm to some extent, where you take whatever beating is coming, soften it, find the parts that are most important,
00:22:57
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to deliver to the team and do it in a way that to the best of your ability maintains connection and engagement and allows people to chart a path forward and still do their best work.
00:23:10
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That does not mean just letting the storm directly through.
00:23:14
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You have to filter it and lead the team through that in a way that's true to you.
00:23:20
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Yeah.
00:23:20
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And a lot of that work is no one ever sees it.
00:23:26
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Yeah.
00:23:26
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Because, you know, you've been in, you're in the meeting, getting the battering and then you're privately working through it.
00:23:34
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And then what comes out the other side is so different and no one ever.
00:23:38
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Yeah.
00:23:40
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That's why they say leadership is lonely because.
00:23:43
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Yeah.
00:23:44
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There are things you don't and can't talk about.
00:23:47
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Yeah.
00:23:47
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Yeah, for sure.
00:23:49
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And I think so much of, of great leaders is, is,
00:23:53
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sort of buffering the team from the hardest things, but also leading them through change.
00:23:59
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And change is hard for, I think, most humans, maybe all humans.
00:24:05
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And we were talking about some of the changes just in the world and in the market.
00:24:09
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Jacob, earlier you mentioned AI.
00:24:11
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And
00:24:12
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We can't have a podcast episode without talking about that just a little bit.
00:24:17
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Not in 2026.
00:24:20
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But it feels natural to chat on it just a little bit.
00:24:23
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And so as you think about what's required of a great leader, how is AI changing that?
AI and Human Traits in Leadership
00:24:30
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I think AI puts a premium on great leadership because it raises the bar on the importance of distinctly human traits, those that cannot be replicated or delegated to an LLM.
00:24:49
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And AI can automate the what.
00:24:51
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It can do amazing things in the workplace.
00:24:54
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It can take over certain processes and agents can do all kinds of work.
00:24:58
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But it can't
00:25:00
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automate the why.
00:25:02
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The why still has to come from authentic leaders.
00:25:07
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Teams and teamwork will still exist.
00:25:10
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The form and function may be different, but they will still require leaders and those leaders will have to understand why.
00:25:17
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They will have to cut through all the AI slop and the noise to create meaning.
00:25:23
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They have to have critical thinking skills to assess, you know, to assess accuracy of AI produced work.
00:25:32
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And Amy, you mentioned this earlier, AI requires really robust ethical and moral judgment.
00:25:39
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Yes.
00:25:40
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Which is a key element of authentic leadership because authentic leaders know who they are and what they stand for and can make principled decisions even at personal cost and risk.
00:25:55
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And I worry about a world where authentic leadership isn't valued and we stop taking those principled stands and then we find ourselves in a future that we don't want to be in.
00:26:07
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Yeah, I mean, it could go either way.
00:26:10
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But I do, I feel encouraged by conversations that I'm having with leaders now.
00:26:17
Speaker
There are a lot different ways.
00:26:19
Speaker
to what they were maybe 12, 18 months ago, where it was, you know, the big plan is basically get rid of as many people as you can and let's automate everything.
00:26:32
Speaker
And, you know, the reality of that is not a great product, not a great experience.
00:26:43
Speaker
And people are having to walk it back a little bit and think, okay, what actually makes sense?
00:26:50
Speaker
Because I do need to find the balance.
00:26:53
Speaker
And when my product service experiences is hitting a human, how do I make sure that I've thought through a new process that makes sense and doesn't compromise those product services and experiences and still gets the most out of automation?
00:27:15
Speaker
Rather than just like trying to jam this like new technology and processes and being like, Oh, why is it not working?
00:27:22
Speaker
And, you know, so I'm encouraged now that the, the panic of like, we must implement AI like everywhere immediately, which was, you know, coming from the top.
00:27:37
Speaker
And, um, I saw a funny meme actually, uh, on LinkedIn the other day and it was like, uh,
00:27:46
Speaker
It said CEOs in the one column, but it could be anybody.
00:27:53
Speaker
But it was like the people are like, what do you want?
00:27:56
Speaker
And the CEOs are like, AI.
00:27:58
Speaker
And it's like, where do you want it?
00:28:00
Speaker
And it's like, we don't know.
00:28:04
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it's shocking how many businesses don't start their AI journey with a defined use case, first of all.
00:28:13
Speaker
But let me give you two really clear examples of companies getting ahead of their skis on AI.
00:28:20
Speaker
One example is Duolingo.
00:28:23
Speaker
And it was a year or two ago, the CEO sent out an email to the entire company that essentially said, we are an AI-first company.
00:28:34
Speaker
From now on, everything you do should be powered by AI.
00:28:39
Speaker
Hiring is frozen.
00:28:41
Speaker
We are going to get the most out of this technology as possible.
00:28:46
Speaker
Guess how that was received by employees?
00:28:48
Speaker
Mass revolt.
00:28:51
Speaker
The CEO, it went viral.
00:28:52
Speaker
The CEO had to apologize.
00:28:55
Speaker
And employees said, we are not an AI-first company.
00:28:58
Speaker
We are a people-first company.
00:28:59
Speaker
Thank you very much.
00:29:00
Speaker
And the CEO backtracked.
00:29:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:04
Speaker
The second example I'll share is Klarna.
00:29:08
Speaker
They fired most of their customer support team and thought they could replicate that with AI.
00:29:14
Speaker
Turns out customer satisfaction went way down.
00:29:17
Speaker
They rehired the whole team.
00:29:19
Speaker
I did.
00:29:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:23
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:29:25
Speaker
It was a mess.
00:29:26
Speaker
And, you know, I've seen that in other organizations in various degrees.
00:29:32
Speaker
And, you know,
00:29:33
Speaker
Yeah, you're so right.
00:29:35
Speaker
Like, start with your use case.
00:29:37
Speaker
Start with some education.
00:29:39
Speaker
Like, understand what the capabilities are.
00:29:44
Speaker
I, like you, also went and did some post-grad learning, but I did mine through MIT.
00:29:53
Speaker
Casual name drop there.
00:29:54
Speaker
Good job.
00:29:56
Speaker
And it was fascinating.
00:29:59
Speaker
I mean, I'm not going to pretend that like I understood all of the modules on robotics because that was insane.
00:30:07
Speaker
But the machine learning, the AI stuff,
00:30:13
Speaker
It was really eye opening in terms of like capability and how to most effectively weave it into your organization while still
00:30:27
Speaker
keeping the integrity of what you're trying to do.
00:30:32
Speaker
And I think everyone just lost track of that.
00:30:34
Speaker
Like they lost track of the goal, whether, like I said, product service experience, it was just about implementing the tool.
00:30:42
Speaker
It wasn't a well thought out, okay, this is what we're hoping to achieve.
00:30:48
Speaker
And so does this make sense?
00:30:51
Speaker
Combined with the fact that overnight there were 50 billion companies that
00:30:57
Speaker
were saying that they had the AI solution that was going to do literally everything that you need, which were, you know, not, not, uh, wasn't true.
00:31:11
Speaker
You know, the, the capabilities when you actually went to, to implement, uh, weren't quite there yet.
00:31:17
Speaker
Um, and when you're dealing with a population, particularly in HR who are not technical, it's easy to get, um,
00:31:27
Speaker
to get misled by organizations that are saying that their tool has certain capabilities that then turns out not to be true.
00:31:35
Speaker
So I say a lot to say, I do feel encouraged that people are now starting to take a look at more of a strategic approach to implementing it that won't compromise that experience.
00:31:49
Speaker
And like you said, it makes, you know,
00:31:53
Speaker
people, people's inherent skills like critical thinking and being authentic and being able to connect with the market that you are trying to reach so much more valuable and so much more important.
00:32:09
Speaker
And I hope that we pick
00:32:13
Speaker
the lighter path as we move forward with how technology is advancing and that we, you know, we don't, we hopefully learn things and that we don't, you know, make, repeat the same mistakes.
00:32:26
Speaker
And because I, I don't, I don't know how,
00:32:30
Speaker
how that would be long-term.
00:32:32
Speaker
It would be... Yeah.
00:32:33
Speaker
I think we have to crawl before we can walk, before we can run.
00:32:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:32:38
Speaker
And I think the last thing I'll say on this is that I think that HR organizations should be leading AI deployment.
00:32:45
Speaker
Yes.
00:32:46
Speaker
Within their organizations because it is not...
00:32:50
Speaker
as much as IT would like you to believe it, it's not a technical implementation.
00:32:55
Speaker
It is a organizational change management exercise that requires mindset shifts, behavior change, leadership skills, and moral and ethical judgment.
00:33:10
Speaker
And I think HR is the right function to lead that work.
00:33:14
Speaker
So the more business leaders can empower and build capability on their people teams to have a strong voice at the AI table, the better.
00:33:24
Speaker
But that does require, Amy, to your point, a level of technical fluency.
00:33:29
Speaker
Yes, you have to do that.
00:33:30
Speaker
On the HR team, so you can have a credible voice.
00:33:34
Speaker
an authentic voice at the table that's taken seriously.
00:33:37
Speaker
So I'm so glad you went to MIT and you're building that capability.
00:33:41
Speaker
That's awesome.
00:33:43
Speaker
I loved it.
00:33:43
Speaker
It was fascinating.
00:33:45
Speaker
And I got to actually implement a ton of it back when I was at Glassdoor.
00:33:51
Speaker
We rolled out three different tools to help automate the pieces of the recruitment process.
00:34:03
Speaker
so that we could, you know, flex up with bandwidth as we needed to.
00:34:09
Speaker
And, you know, rather than having to increase the team, we could increase our capacity without compromising the experience.
00:34:22
Speaker
And that was always top of mind for me because,
00:34:26
Speaker
I really, well, you know, Jacob, it's really important to me that people go through their introduction to an organization and feel great about it, feel excited about it, feel connected to it.
00:34:39
Speaker
And I never wanted to lose that.
00:34:41
Speaker
And the great news is you don't have to, you just have to really think through where it's going to be most, most beneficial.
00:34:52
Speaker
Yeah.
00:34:52
Speaker
And if you can free up time for your recruiters to provide that differentiated candidate and new employee experience and not spend all that time reviewing unqualified resumes, that is a good use case.
00:35:06
Speaker
Absolutely.
00:35:08
Speaker
So let's switch gears a little bit and talk about the reality of being truly authentic.
00:35:19
Speaker
Were there moments in your career, Jacob, where being authentic felt risky?
00:35:27
Speaker
Yes.
00:35:30
Speaker
There have been many moments where I experienced a pounding heart about to say something vulnerable.
00:35:39
Speaker
You know, I mentioned earlier that for me, authentic leadership looks like leading with my story because it really defines my why and helps people understand how I connect my why to my work.
00:35:53
Speaker
And so, you know, some people think coming out is a one-time thing, like, oh, I'm out of the closet now and the rest of my life I'm out.
00:36:02
Speaker
But I'm here to tell you that coming out is an almost daily process.
00:36:06
Speaker
And every time you come out, it requires emotional labor and vulnerability.
00:36:11
Speaker
And you're never sure how it's going to be received and how it will make people think of you.
00:36:18
Speaker
But at this point, you know, my identity as a queer person is such a big part of how I show up at work and in life that it's something I do all the time and it feels vulnerable and scary every time.
00:36:32
Speaker
Yeah.
00:36:33
Speaker
You know, I mentioned how my story, my experience as a queer person and, you know, being afraid to come out and it being really risky to come out has really informed my work as a people leader.
Inclusivity and Fair Talent Processes
00:36:47
Speaker
And with that comes a non-negotiable commitment to creating fair, inclusive workplaces with belonging as a core value.
00:36:59
Speaker
And as you know, Amy, a lot of people processes are not set up to create fairness and consistency.
00:37:07
Speaker
And as we look at the demographics of CEOs and C-suite, there are huge gaps in representation that do not reflect the talent and capabilities of all kinds of marginalized groups.
00:37:24
Speaker
And so at Glassdoor,
00:37:29
Speaker
I was non-negotiably committed to redesigning talent processes from recruiting to internal mobility to promotions to performance management to do the best we could to create a consistent, fair experience for everyone.
00:37:47
Speaker
And that meant huge behavior changes across the organization.
00:37:50
Speaker
It was its own transformation effort.
00:37:52
Speaker
And so when you tell a leader who's used to bringing in people that they've worked with in the past, just because they know they work well together, or when leaders just tap their favorites on their team for promotion without an objective assessment of skills, they
00:38:13
Speaker
it's really hard for those leaders to give up that privilege and to change their behaviors.
00:38:18
Speaker
And so I was constantly feeling like I was...
00:38:27
Speaker
I constantly felt risky to hold the line on these processes, but I had no choice because it was such a core value of mine to run objective, fair processes.
00:38:41
Speaker
But when leaders understood that it's not HR's job to follow orders, it's HR's job to be stewards of a fair and objective and consistent process, I think over time they got it.
00:38:55
Speaker
And our recruiting metrics showed.
00:38:58
Speaker
I think we went from hiring 10% marginalized groups to 30% to 35% consistently quarter over quarter.
00:39:04
Speaker
That's right.
00:39:07
Speaker
So the processes we designed worked, and Amy, you and your team executed them incredibly well.
00:39:14
Speaker
But getting there was a huge mindset shift and required lots of principled leadership and behavior change.
00:39:22
Speaker
Yeah, no, I believe it.
00:39:23
Speaker
I think one of the first conversations that I had when we were implementing the candidate pool rule to make sure that we were being really thoughtful about candidates was a leader being like, I'm not asking a lot.
00:39:46
Speaker
I'm fine with anyone.
00:39:48
Speaker
I just need them to have had...
00:39:51
Speaker
this amount of experience in a you know top tech company and they need to have gone to um a top tier school and they need to live in the bay area and i was like okay that narrows it down a bit yeah okay let's let's have a conversation but yeah it did you know it everybody it was so great to see you though like bring everybody along on that journey
00:40:21
Speaker
And, you know, yeah, the, the,
00:40:25
Speaker
the impact that it made.
00:40:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think, thanks, Amy.
00:40:30
Speaker
I think that gets to how authenticity looks a little bit different at different levels in the organization.
00:40:36
Speaker
So for me, when I was trying to facilitate this change at Glassdoor, I was, you know, senior director, you know, relatively influential and visible across the company.
00:40:48
Speaker
And for me to take those stands and to sometimes go against what much more senior leaders wanted,
00:40:56
Speaker
that was me risking power and influence.
00:41:00
Speaker
Because if leaders above me say, we don't like what Jacob's putting down here, we don't want him in this position of power and influence.
00:41:09
Speaker
They could have demoted me or fired me or shut me out.
00:41:13
Speaker
But I had a leader who,
00:41:15
Speaker
who shielded me from that and who consistently elevated me and put me in the room so that my authentic voice could actually create behavior change.
00:41:26
Speaker
But without her, you know, I was risking my own power and influence because I was bringing a change to the organization that not everybody wanted.
00:41:37
Speaker
Yeah.
00:41:38
Speaker
When you're earlier in your career, being authentic, I think risks belonging because there's always the chance that the culture of the organization doesn't value uniqueness or difference and that there's a conformity culture.
00:41:54
Speaker
So when you're early in your career, you risk belonging.
00:41:57
Speaker
When you're more senior in your career, you risk power and influence.
00:42:00
Speaker
Yeah.
00:42:01
Speaker
Yeah, no, that's so true.
00:42:04
Speaker
As you move up, the stakes definitely do get higher.
00:42:09
Speaker
So as a pretty what you see is what you get kind of person generally, where's the line between authenticity and oversharing?
00:42:21
Speaker
I'm just asking for a friend.
00:42:25
Speaker
Same.
00:42:26
Speaker
I mean, I have definitely crossed the line from authenticity into oversharing.
00:42:32
Speaker
That's when you get those like vulnerability hangovers the next day.
00:42:37
Speaker
I spoke too much.
00:42:41
Speaker
I think it's important to remember though, that authenticity is discipline.
00:42:44
Speaker
It's not, it's not relaxing and just letting it all come out.
00:42:49
Speaker
It's discipline.
00:42:50
Speaker
It's congruence between,
00:42:53
Speaker
You're inside and you're outside.
00:42:57
Speaker
And your ability to have healthy boundaries with yourself is definitely a part of being an authentic leader.
00:43:04
Speaker
So echoing what I said earlier, any, you know, anytime you share a feeling or anytime you're vulnerable as a leader, it has to be towards a constructive end.
00:43:14
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:15
Speaker
Yeah.
00:43:16
Speaker
And if it's not towards a constructive end, then it's oversharing.
00:43:21
Speaker
And there needs to be some some boundary setting there.
00:43:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:26
Speaker
And I'm curious, what types of behaviours have you witnessed that have enabled authenticity in others?
00:43:36
Speaker
And then which ones do you think take away that opportunity for people to be authentic at work?
00:43:43
Speaker
Yeah, I think earlier we talked about, you know, letting others shine, not having to be the smartest person in the room.
00:43:50
Speaker
I think I would add to that is really valuing difference, being difference as a driver of innovation.
00:43:57
Speaker
Seeing difference as something that brings new and different ideas to the table.
00:44:02
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:06
Speaker
Along with that, there's this idea of celebrating experiments, even if they fail, because you tried something new and different.
00:44:13
Speaker
That's how innovation happens, by experimentation.
00:44:18
Speaker
And I would say another enabler are those who create psychological safety, because that gives people signal and permission to bring their authentic selves to work, and it cascades throughout an organization.
00:44:31
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:35
Speaker
Detractors that I've seen in my career are conformity culture where it's like fit in or get out.
00:44:43
Speaker
I've seen far too many leaders lead through fear and shame rather than inspiration.
00:44:52
Speaker
And that will shut down vulnerability like nobody's business.
00:44:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:56
Speaker
Yeah.
00:44:57
Speaker
I think also micromanaging, it takes somebody away from feeling empowered and just makes them kind of take orders.
00:45:07
Speaker
So those would say are detractors.
00:45:10
Speaker
Yeah, no, I totally agree.
00:45:13
Speaker
And part of the work that we do at Strativus is working with, you know, new leaders who are finding their feet and making that uncomfy transition from IC to, you know, a management position, leadership position.
00:45:30
Speaker
I would love to hear from you the lessons that you learned when you stepped into more senior roles.
00:45:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:45:41
Speaker
Amy, it's a bit ironic that, you know, I hired you about a year into my senior leadership experience, and I felt like I learned so many lessons the hard way.
00:45:51
Speaker
And I sort of feel bad for some folks on the team who had to help me learn those lessons.
00:45:57
Speaker
No.
00:45:58
Speaker
Yeah.
00:46:00
Speaker
I've definitely made the mistake of oversharing in a way that was not productive and kind of blurred the healthy boundaries between work and life.
00:46:13
Speaker
I think one lesson I really learned at Glassdoor was...
00:46:18
Speaker
Yes, I was known for being visionary and enlisting people in a shared vision and goal and creating psychological safety.
00:46:28
Speaker
I think I didn't quite realize the importance of following through on that vision with really solid operations and execution.
00:46:35
Speaker
And I just hadn't seen that modeled in my career.
00:46:40
Speaker
So I really doubled down on...
00:46:44
Speaker
balancing vision and inspiration with the operational chops and level of detail orientation to actually get the outcomes that we wanted.
00:46:55
Speaker
It's not just enough to be visionary.
00:46:59
Speaker
Vision without a plan is just a daydream.
00:47:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:03
Speaker
Yeah.
00:47:04
Speaker
I feel like we did pretty good though, Jacob, to be honest.
00:47:07
Speaker
Like if that's how it felt, that's, you know, I, you know, I wasn't in your seat, but I think we did, I think we did pretty good.
00:47:14
Speaker
I, I felt, I felt like we had a pretty strong, strong run.
00:47:20
Speaker
We, we sure did.
00:47:21
Speaker
I mean, I think Amy, you knew a lot more about execution than I did at the time.
00:47:28
Speaker
So I, I credit you for teaching me about that.
00:47:34
Speaker
Anything else that kind of comes to mind?
00:47:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think a lot of queer people have a shared experience of, you know, you have this secret when you're young and you're afraid to share it because it creates shame because you think it's bad because of what society has taught you.
00:47:54
Speaker
And so it creates this need to be liked, to be good enough, to be perfect, to be the best, to be... And so...
00:48:06
Speaker
I think for me, there was this really intense desire to be likable, to be the fun boss, to be... And sometimes that came at the expense of being honest and delivering constructive feedback.
00:48:20
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:20
Speaker
Because I just wanted to be likable.
Prioritizing Honesty in Leadership
00:48:23
Speaker
And so unlearning that I don't have to be nice all the time, that I am good enough, took a lot.
00:48:34
Speaker
Took a lot of effort.
00:48:35
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:35
Speaker
Something I'm still learning.
00:48:36
Speaker
Wow.
00:48:38
Speaker
Clear as kind.
00:48:40
Speaker
Yeah.
00:48:40
Speaker
For sure.
00:48:42
Speaker
You know, leaders are often expected to be polished and, you know, deliver the company line in whatever circumstances.
00:48:51
Speaker
But I think...
00:48:53
Speaker
especially during times of change or when things are really hard, I think it's actually really powerful and important for leaders not to be polished.
00:49:01
Speaker
Yeah.
00:49:02
Speaker
And to share in some of the pain or to share in some of the uncertainty or fear that's going on and just using that emotion to empathize and identify with people who are feeling the same thing.
00:49:17
Speaker
So if there's a really scary thing happening or lots of change, I would appreciate a leader who could like sit with me in that uncertainty and fear for a little bit versus a leader who shows up perfectly polished saying exactly what they're supposed to say.
00:49:33
Speaker
You know, it doesn't feel as authentic.
00:49:35
Speaker
Yeah, I agree.
00:49:36
Speaker
Especially when your company is going, like you say, going through something significant.
00:49:41
Speaker
And when you're in a leadership position, you know more than they do.
00:49:45
Speaker
So pretending that everything's fine, I just think is so disingenuous.
00:49:53
Speaker
And it's just, it's a disservice to your team.
00:49:58
Speaker
to make them think they're crazy when they can clearly sense that there's something going on.
00:50:12
Speaker
And so, you don't- Employees can smell dishonesty or inauthenticity a mile away.
00:50:18
Speaker
You're not fooling anybody.
00:50:19
Speaker
Now, and all it does is damage your credibility if you're the one that's either, you know, pretending everything's fine or even worse, disappearing.
00:50:28
Speaker
You know, that's just not, it just damages your credibility.
00:50:33
Speaker
It doesn't keep anything in secret or...
00:50:37
Speaker
keep anything moving forward.
00:50:40
Speaker
It just, it just, it's your brand that's impacted.
00:50:43
Speaker
So yeah, it's a good point.
00:50:44
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:46
Speaker
Yeah.
00:50:46
Speaker
I think.
00:50:47
Speaker
Oh, go ahead.
00:50:47
Speaker
No, go ahead.
00:50:47
Speaker
Please.
00:50:51
Speaker
I was just, as you were talking, reflecting on those moments where there was really tough news to deliver in different environments.
00:50:58
Speaker
And there's such a contrast in my mind between the highly polished marketing email that hits your inbox versus the leader that pulls a roundtable of the team together to just say, hey, here's
00:51:12
Speaker
what I can share with you right now.
00:51:14
Speaker
And here's, you know, here, I'm here to support you.
00:51:17
Speaker
And I'm here to answer questions as much as I can.
00:51:19
Speaker
And that feels so different.
00:51:22
Speaker
And it's a really, you know, in many ways, a small sort of change in strategy for for a leader to address that.
00:51:30
Speaker
Yeah, I think you said something really important, Aaron, which is,
00:51:35
Speaker
It is not the job of an authentic leader to share everything they know with their team.
00:51:40
Speaker
You can still filter and choose what is the most important for the team to hear and still be authentic.
00:51:48
Speaker
Being authentic does not mean sharing everything.
00:51:50
Speaker
Right.
00:51:52
Speaker
And you can build trust without being a totally open book.
00:51:55
Speaker
I mean, that's part of your force is to hold some things close.
00:52:01
Speaker
And for you, you know, back to our, our,
00:52:03
Speaker
chat about how leadership is sometimes sort of lonely.
00:52:06
Speaker
That's just built in.
00:52:08
Speaker
That's part of the role.
00:52:09
Speaker
But trust is so critical in doing anything effectively with your team.
00:52:16
Speaker
And so, Jacob, how should authenticity show up in decision-making for leaders?
00:52:22
Speaker
Yeah.
00:52:27
Speaker
I think when making decisions, aligning your decisions with your values is
00:52:34
Speaker
is the mark of an authentic leader, especially when it's inconvenient and especially when nobody's looking.
00:52:43
Speaker
Principles first, decision making.
00:52:46
Speaker
And recognizing that some decisions will come with a cost if you want to be an authentic leader.
00:52:53
Speaker
For me, it also means that everyone gets held to the same standards, because for me, that's core to equity and fairness.
00:53:01
Speaker
When we start treating some people differently than others, we start having favorites.
00:53:09
Speaker
That's when unfairness and bias can come in.
00:53:12
Speaker
And those, you know, bias has real impacts on people's lives and careers.
00:53:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:53:19
Speaker
So consistency and fairness is really important.
00:53:21
Speaker
And then I would also say authenticity is the willingness to make a tough call and to not pass the problem down to somebody else, kind of being that bulwark for your team.
00:53:31
Speaker
And if there's a tough call to make it, to make authentic, an authentic leader should make that call and not pass the problem around.
00:53:38
Speaker
Yes.
00:53:40
Speaker
And what about handling tough conversations?
00:53:42
Speaker
It sort of feels like you've spent quite a bit of time on this as a leader yourself and kind of coming up through your story and maybe being hesitant to be really clear in feedback and wanting to please and wanting to be kind.
00:53:57
Speaker
What would you say about that?
00:54:00
Speaker
I think for me,
00:54:02
Speaker
I try to use empathy when I'm having a tough conversation and say, if the situation was reversed, how would I want to receive this feedback?
00:54:16
Speaker
in a way that I could hear it, not get defensive and actually use the feedback instructively.
00:54:23
Speaker
So I think about what I would like to hear and then I adapt it to what I know about the person.
00:54:31
Speaker
I've experienced people who use fear and shame to give feedback.
00:54:38
Speaker
which ultimately isn't good for growth or development or psychological safety.
00:54:44
Speaker
So you can have tough conversations, but deliver it with empathy, deliver it in a way that the person can hear and deliver it in a way that creates constructive behavior change and not fear and shame and disengagement.
00:54:58
Speaker
And I love what you said about not just treating people how you want to be treated, but adapting it for what you know about them and their own experience that matters so much.
00:55:09
Speaker
And so, Jacob, how should authenticity scale as organizations grow?
00:55:17
Speaker
I think as organizations grow, authenticity has to scale in systems.
00:55:25
Speaker
Values have to scale through systems.
00:55:28
Speaker
So at scale, authenticity is about how leaders feel on any given day.
00:55:33
Speaker
It's about designing organizational systems that align with values.
00:55:39
Speaker
And that's really what Amy and I did at Glassdoor is we took our values around fairness, around inclusion, around belonging, and
00:55:47
Speaker
And we infused it at every step of that hire to retire employee journey.
00:55:54
Speaker
And hopefully, Amy, that has allowed our legacy to last beyond our time there because it's baked into the culture now.
00:56:03
Speaker
It's baked into systems.
00:56:05
Speaker
It's baked into process.
00:56:06
Speaker
And that makes it sustainable.
00:56:08
Speaker
It's not dependent on you or I. It's built in.
00:56:12
Speaker
And I think that is what great leaders do is they leave a legacy in
00:56:19
Speaker
that is so deeply ingrained in how the, in the systems of how an organization works that it lasts beyond them.
Identity Work and Accountability in Leadership
00:56:25
Speaker
Yeah, I agree.
00:56:27
Speaker
I agree.
00:56:28
Speaker
And it's, it's hard work to do, right?
00:56:31
Speaker
You know, it's not a, it's not a quick, a quick implementation to completely re reroute a process, but it's so worthwhile and, and, and important.
00:56:48
Speaker
If it's important to you, you know, you'll do the work.
00:56:52
Speaker
And so if we boil all of this down, you know, we've been talking for a while here, what should leaders be asking themselves if they want to lead authentically and, you know, they're not quite sure if they're hitting it, what should they be thinking about?
00:57:12
Speaker
Do you know who you are?
00:57:14
Speaker
Have you done identity work?
00:57:17
Speaker
Do you know what you stand for?
00:57:20
Speaker
Do you know what principles, when if violated, would compromise who you are and what's important to you?
00:57:30
Speaker
Have you cultivated the courage to make difficult decisions when it costs something?
00:57:37
Speaker
Have you actually done that?
00:57:40
Speaker
Your values aren't something you get credit for when you're a leader.
00:57:44
Speaker
They're something you get held to.
00:57:45
Speaker
So don't pursue authentic, principled leadership unless you're willing to live inside it on good days and bad ones.
00:57:54
Speaker
Yep.
00:57:55
Speaker
It's so funny that you say that because our last week's podcast episode, we did a theme on our values and how we came to have the values that we have as Strativists.
00:58:14
Speaker
And we built our values first.
00:58:17
Speaker
That was the first thing we sat down and did.
00:58:20
Speaker
What's really important to us?
00:58:23
Speaker
And that is exactly what we said last week is, you know, these are the things that are non-negotiable for us.
00:58:33
Speaker
Like how we, how, and the one we particularly talked about was the people first always.
00:58:39
Speaker
And it really, the always is important because even when it's hard, even when everything is against you, do you still,
00:58:51
Speaker
fight for what's the what is right for you know the the population that you're trying to yeah or represent and and yeah that's just something we won't compromise on um and that shows up in a lot of different ways it shows up with who we work with it shows up with um in you know how we how we treat the people that we partner with um
00:59:18
Speaker
It's, it's just, it's, they're not negotiable.
00:59:21
Speaker
Like even when it's easier to do something else, or you're being directed to do something else, your, your non-negotiables are really important.
00:59:31
Speaker
So it's funny that you, that you phrased it like that, because that was literally what we said last week.
00:59:36
Speaker
I love that you started with values, Amy.
00:59:39
Speaker
That says a lot about you and Aaron.
00:59:41
Speaker
Oh, thanks.
00:59:41
Speaker
Yeah.
00:59:42
Speaker
I feel like you've left your mark.
00:59:44
Speaker
Yes.
00:59:44
Speaker
I've been sort of reflecting on that through this conversation.
00:59:48
Speaker
And I think, you know, I can, as I think back to our initial planning meeting, there are definitely themes, Jacob, of your perspective and philosophy in that discussion.
00:59:59
Speaker
Oh no, I'm getting called out.
01:00:05
Speaker
Yeah, there definitely is.
01:00:06
Speaker
I learned so much in my time.
01:00:09
Speaker
um working for Jacob it was it was honestly like it changed my whole career trajectory um I think I had um just gonna a little sidebar here I think I had decided um you know that I had reached my top of where I I could go
01:00:31
Speaker
I don't know why, but I just had, I was like, okay, this is really good.
01:00:36
Speaker
And I'm, you know, I'm having a good time and I really like the work and I love the people.
01:00:40
Speaker
And so this is good.
01:00:42
Speaker
And then Jacob just made me feel like, no, like you can go after someone.
01:00:50
Speaker
whatever you want, like you have the ability, you have the work ethic, you have the people skills, like the emotional intelligence to navigate through, um, being in that position where you are managing up and managing down.
01:01:06
Speaker
Um, and it gave me the confidence to just keep going and, you know, all the way, you know, I got two promotions.
01:01:18
Speaker
And then now, you know, we started our own company.
01:01:21
Speaker
And I just I wonder who I would have been, had I not had that experience with you, Jacob, I wonder who I would have been.
01:01:29
Speaker
But thankfully, that didn't happen.
01:01:31
Speaker
I did get to work with you.
01:01:32
Speaker
And now I'm unstoppable.
01:01:36
Speaker
I am definitely chopping onions or something.
01:01:39
Speaker
Wow.
01:01:39
Speaker
Thank you.
01:01:42
Speaker
I am so proud of you, Amy.
01:01:44
Speaker
And, you know, I had people who believed in me in my career and I am so proud of you and I'm happy to pay that forward to you.
01:01:55
Speaker
And I know that you have and will pay it forward to others.
01:02:00
Speaker
So keep it going.
01:02:02
Speaker
You gotta.
01:02:05
Speaker
I love it.
01:02:07
Speaker
Oh, okay.
01:02:08
Speaker
Let's get, let's get back on track here.
01:02:14
Speaker
So speaking of, you know, people that have like influenced you, what do you wish that someone had told you like early in your career?
01:02:28
Speaker
I, that's a great question.
01:02:29
Speaker
I think
01:02:31
Speaker
Early in my career, I did a lot of apologizing for things that I didn't need to apologize for because it came from a place of people pleasing and being insecure and being uncertain of who I was.
01:02:44
Speaker
And I finally had a manager who was like, Jacob, stop apologizing.
01:02:50
Speaker
Don't say I'm sorry unless you've done something wrong.
01:02:53
Speaker
And it was just the perfectly timed piece of feedback at the right time when I was ready to receive it.
01:03:00
Speaker
And I stopped starting every email with sorry for this or sorry for that.
01:03:06
Speaker
Yeah.
01:03:07
Speaker
Yeah.
01:03:07
Speaker
It's a hard, it's a hard habit to get out.
01:03:09
Speaker
Yeah.
01:03:10
Speaker
Yeah.
01:03:12
Speaker
Instead of saying, you know, sorry for my delayed response, say thank you for your patience.
01:03:18
Speaker
Yeah.
01:03:18
Speaker
Just a simple, a simple switch like that just made such a difference in my mindset.
01:03:22
Speaker
And I think helped me stepped into a bigger leadership role.
01:03:26
Speaker
I like that.
01:03:27
Speaker
And then the second thing I would say is,
01:03:30
Speaker
I wish that I had this feedback earlier in my time at Glassdoor, which is like, yes, be inspiring and be visionary, but then follow through with like a solid operating model and build these things into systems.
01:03:47
Speaker
I learned that eventually, but it took some trial and error and not a small amount of feedback from senior leaders in the organization.
01:03:54
Speaker
So I wish I would have learned that a little sooner.
01:03:56
Speaker
That's funny.
01:03:59
Speaker
And I guess I just I'm curious real quick, like, who do you think struggles the most with authentic leadership?
01:04:06
Speaker
And why do you think that is?
01:04:10
Speaker
I think particularly people who have been super high performers or really executing on the what, and they get promoted into these leadership positions, but they haven't really done a lot of identity work.
01:04:25
Speaker
And that sometimes translates differently.
01:04:32
Speaker
that sometimes translate poorly into leadership roles where being, just being a high performer does not necessarily mean you're going to be a great leader or manager.
01:04:42
Speaker
So people who have not done identity work and really dug deep within themselves to understand who they are.
01:04:48
Speaker
And then, you know, leaders rewarded for outcomes, but those who've never been held accountable for their behavior.
01:04:54
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:56
Speaker
Yeah.
01:04:57
Speaker
Yeah, there's always at least one of those in talent acquisition particularly because it's like a little sales organization within HR.
01:05:12
Speaker
And it's very clear to see your results in the numbers.
01:05:19
Speaker
And it's a quick turnaround too, right?
01:05:23
Speaker
you've got this requisition and you've got to fill it in X amount of days and you can look at the end of the month and see who's where.
01:05:33
Speaker
And so, yeah, I often think about that, just because you are the top performer and that you deliver work really well, doesn't give you an excuse to make everyone around you
01:05:50
Speaker
miserable.
01:05:51
Speaker
Yeah.
01:05:52
Speaker
Didn't we used to say no brilliant jerks?
01:05:55
Speaker
Yes.
01:05:55
Speaker
Yes.
01:05:56
Speaker
No, no glass holes at glass door.
01:05:59
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:00
Speaker
Yes.
01:06:01
Speaker
I love that.
01:06:03
Speaker
And so to, to kind of wrap us up on this piece, like if you could give one piece of practical advice that leaders could make, what would it be?
01:06:16
Speaker
One piece of advice, talk less, listen more.
01:06:20
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:22
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:23
Speaker
That's really the core of it.
01:06:25
Speaker
Employees feeling seen and heard is the best medicine to cultivate authentic leadership and build trust.
01:06:31
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:32
Speaker
Yeah.
01:06:32
Speaker
I totally agree.
01:06:34
Speaker
Well, we can't let you off the hook that easy, Jacob.
01:06:36
Speaker
I've got a couple more things that I'd love just to kind of rapid fire at you before we close.
01:06:43
Speaker
And so first on my mind is what are you most proud of in how you lead today?
01:06:49
Speaker
Hmm.
01:06:50
Speaker
I think I'm most proud of creating psychological safety and belonging for those who need it most.
01:06:58
Speaker
Hmm.
01:06:59
Speaker
I am not surprised to hear that one.
01:07:02
Speaker
It seems like it's a forte.
01:07:05
Speaker
I mean, definitely in Amy's testimony, that was transformational in her career journey and in her growth.
01:07:11
Speaker
I can only imagine how many lives you've touched in that.
01:07:14
Speaker
That's amazing.
01:07:15
Speaker
It was transformative for me when I had that experience.
01:07:18
Speaker
And I knew that that was the goal of my career was to create that for others.
01:07:24
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:24
Speaker
Yeah.
01:07:26
Speaker
And I love, you know, as we've been talking, there's, there's so much thoughtfulness to how you've shaped your leadership.
01:07:33
Speaker
And so tell us kind of with a little bit of vulnerability, what are you still actively working on as a leader today?
01:07:43
Speaker
It's a great question.
01:07:45
Speaker
What comes to mind is something that I'm working on is what it means to stay in a space of change.
01:07:54
Speaker
And, you know, the world that we live in right now is so volatile and everything feels like it's changing so quickly.
01:08:02
Speaker
And, you know, the part of my job that I was so passionate about, diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging,
01:08:12
Speaker
has gone from something that is celebrated and invested in to something that is punished almost.
01:08:19
Speaker
And that has been a hard thing to process because it's so core to my values and how I work.
01:08:27
Speaker
So I'm thinking, and of course we talked about AI and the rapid changes that that's bringing.
01:08:32
Speaker
So what I'm working on is finding this space of agility
01:08:39
Speaker
and open-mindedness, um, accepting what's changed in the world and trying to figure out what my path forward looks like.
01:08:47
Speaker
And how do I, how do I cultivate meaning in a world that feels like it's attacked?
01:08:54
Speaker
What's most important to me?
01:08:57
Speaker
Something that I'm working on.
01:08:59
Speaker
The hard one.
01:09:01
Speaker
Yeah.
01:09:02
Speaker
Thank goodness you're spending the time there because I think that's something that so many of us leaders and individual contributors alike are stewing on and trying to unravel.
01:09:13
Speaker
And so having a great leader like you doing the work, having the reflection and then hopefully being able to lead.
01:09:21
Speaker
others through that is a phenomenal thing.
01:09:25
Speaker
And so I've gotten lost in our conversation.
01:09:28
Speaker
I've had so much fun, Jacob, hearing from you.
01:09:30
Speaker
Me too.
01:09:32
Speaker
I'm sure that our listeners also have enjoyed the conversation and are hopefully taking some learnings away.
01:09:38
Speaker
And so where can listeners find you or follow you if they would like to get connected?
01:09:46
Speaker
Yeah, I am on LinkedIn.
01:09:47
Speaker
My handle is Jacob Little SF on LinkedIn.
01:09:50
Speaker
My Instagram handle is at Jacob Little.
01:09:53
Speaker
And if you type my name into Spotify or Apple podcasts, I've done several of these and you can hear my thoughts on other topics.
01:10:03
Speaker
Love it.
01:10:04
Speaker
On podcasts.
01:10:06
Speaker
Love it.
01:10:07
Speaker
Thank you so much.
01:10:09
Speaker
Okay, we'll wrap, but any final thoughts before we let you go?
01:10:16
Speaker
Final thoughts.
01:10:17
Speaker
Align yourself with a higher purpose or goal.
01:10:20
Speaker
Know what you stand for.
01:10:22
Speaker
Cultivate self-awareness.
01:10:24
Speaker
What does it mean to be uniquely you and bring that person to work and then listen to your people and show empathy?
01:10:31
Speaker
To sum it up.
01:10:32
Speaker
Love it.
01:10:33
Speaker
Yeah.
01:10:33
Speaker
For the people that only had time to listen to it for five seconds, that's it.
01:10:38
Speaker
It's gold.
01:10:39
Speaker
It's gold.
01:10:41
Speaker
Thank you so much, Jacob, for coming on.
01:10:43
Speaker
It's been so great to hear you talk again.
01:10:47
Speaker
Like it's bringing back so many great memories.
01:10:50
Speaker
And just to hear like the journey that you've been on over the last few years has been really cool and insightful.
01:11:02
Speaker
because you were that, what did you call it?
01:11:06
Speaker
The little storm guard thing?
01:11:08
Speaker
You were that- The bulwark.
01:11:10
Speaker
That's it.
01:11:11
Speaker
You were that for me.
01:11:13
Speaker
And so it's interesting to hear the things that you were kind of like navigating on the other side.
01:11:20
Speaker
To me, you showed up like everything was great.
01:11:25
Speaker
There was no problems.
01:11:27
Speaker
My team were doing that for you.
01:11:33
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't feel a thing.
01:11:35
Speaker
Yeah, it was awesome.
01:11:37
Speaker
It was awesome.
01:11:37
Speaker
Do you have any fun plans this evening?
01:11:40
Speaker
I'm going to cook some dinner and then hang out with my boyfriend later.
01:11:44
Speaker
Oh, I love it.
01:11:45
Speaker
I love it.
01:11:46
Speaker
Yeah.
01:11:47
Speaker
Thank Amy.
01:11:48
Speaker
Aaron, thank you so much for having me.
01:11:50
Speaker
I could not be more proud of you both and more excited about what you're building and so glad I got to be a part of it.
01:11:58
Speaker
Thank you so much.
01:11:59
Speaker
Thank you.
01:12:00
Speaker
Bye.
01:12:00
Speaker
Bye.
01:12:01
Speaker
Bye.