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The Stab in the Back Myth of WWI
43 Plays6 years ago
Josh and M investigate the November criminals and the associated conspiracy theory that says the Germans could have won the First Great War if it hadn't been for those pesky kids. They also check in Julian Assange and Paul Manafort's (alleged) secret meetings, ask why a local opinion piece writer is engaging in crypto-antisemitism, and poke at a niggling IT issue.
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Transcript
Episode Introduction and Topics Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
This week, bad German accent. Don't mention Zevor. And thus concludes this week's bad accent and our reenactment of a favourite 40 towers scene. Yes, it was also a lie. We will be mentioning the war, the war, and several other wars besides. We'll also discuss the local turf conspiracy theory and resign ourselves to a mention of Julian Assange. He has a mullet now, don't you know? No spoilers. On with the show then.
Recording Challenges and Techniques
00:00:37
Speaker
The podcaster's guide to the conspiracy, brought to you today by Josh Addison and Dr. M. Denton.
00:00:46
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the podcaster's guide to the conspiracy. Here we are again, both in the same room, at the same time. If you watch these things on YouTube, you might have noticed that there was no video episode last week. Or was there? Well, there was a video episode of a kind, but not of the specific podcast. Scheduling conflicts meant that M and I could not be in the same place at the same time.
00:01:11
Speaker
Thereby disproving rumors that one or both of us is Superman, which we usually do each week. Now, of course, not too last week. There is a possibility we're using split screen here and then we're not actually in the same space whatsoever. And where we both Superman, we could be using our super speed to vibrate. See, I'm just thinking of my two songs now. Anyway, the point is things are back to normal. We're in the same room recording sound and shooting video. It's all good.
00:01:36
Speaker
It's true. I've got whiskey. Josh has a sense of despair. Yeah, yeah. And with that, I think we should probably move on with the show. I think we should. On with the show indeed.
World War I: Introduction and 'Stab in the Back' Myth
00:01:51
Speaker
So this week, we are going to mention the war, but not that war yet anyway. That war will come up. We're going to be talking about World War One.
00:01:58
Speaker
The first great war, the great war, the war to end all wars, the war that was sold on a false promise. That war. That particular war. But in particular we're going to be talking about a conspiracy theory that happened after the war. But about the war. But about the war.
00:02:14
Speaker
and about the beginning of the war as to why the war failed in the first place from the German side. So it says conspiracy theory after the war, about the start of the war, explaining the conduct of the war and why the war ended even though the theory was generated after the war.
00:02:29
Speaker
It's very confusing. It's very timey-wimey, actually. It is, actually. So this particular conspiracy theory has a name. It's called the Stab in the Back Myth, or the Stab in the Back Myth. Are you going for the German pronunciation here? Uh, Jimin Dostos Legenda. Good work. Well done. The one that looks like a B is actually a double S.
00:02:44
Speaker
I remember that from fifth form German. And not when you were in the German army. No. Had you heard of this one before? I'm vaguely aware of it and that it's kind of, as we'll see, it's kind of related to the beginning of World War II and well, basically the rise of the national socialists in Germany and thus beginning of World War II. But I didn't know that much about it. No.
00:03:06
Speaker
That was just, there was an article in The Guardian this week about a study in conspiracy theories which you were not involved in? Notably not involved in. So the conspiracy and democracy project that went through the leverholme trust in the UK as part of Crash in Cambridge, I applied to be a postdoc in that five-year project.
00:03:30
Speaker
I was interviewed and didn't get a position. I have a particular theory about why that is the case, which would not be politic for me to discuss. But yes, John McNaughton and…
00:03:45
Speaker
No, sorry, John Norsen and Sir Richard Evans and now and David Runciman who are the three principal investigators that project basically has come to a conclusion now and John Norsen was in The Guardian talking about how bad conspiracy theories are but then mentioned this particular conspiracy theory which piqued your interest. He sort of he mentioned
00:04:10
Speaker
that a lot of talk of conspiracy theories looks at American conspiracy theories, which he sort of put down to the, what was it, the Hofstede paranoid style and American politics book. And so he said, well, we want to look at more European ones such as the Stab in the Back myth that came out of Germany.
00:04:25
Speaker
and I was like there was a stab in the back myth that came out of Germany and lo and behold there was and it seemed like an interesting thing that we probably should be talking about it so we should probably start beating around the bush and say what it actually was this is a conspiracy theory that sort of came about almost immediately after World War I which claimed that Germany could have won World War
Impact of 'Stab in the Back' Myth on German Society
00:04:49
Speaker
I
00:04:49
Speaker
And the only reason why they lost was because they were stabbed in the back. They were betrayed by forces within Germany who wanted them to fail. Now these forces within Germany were the civilians. So if Germany had just stayed under high command in World War I, they would have been victorious. But the people, those bloody Democrats with their want for power and to share power with the military, they're the ones. They're the ones that brought
00:05:19
Speaker
High Command Down. Yes, I mean not all the people obviously because as we'll see quite a lot of the German people were fully on board with this particular conspiracy theory but supposedly there were these people who got named the November criminals after the fact that the armistice was signed in November of 1918. Are they related to the fun-loving criminals by any chance? I don't think so. They don't sound particularly fun-loving. More November-y. Are they more November-rain criminals? Quite possibly.
00:05:46
Speaker
But I don't like to think of the implications of that. In particular, who were they? My knowledge of German history is not spectacular, but I understand that in 1918 there was something of a revolution within Germany. The old government under the Kaiser was overthrown and replaced by the Weimar Republic.
00:06:14
Speaker
And they were then having set themselves, I think it extended into 1919, the whole affair, but by 1918 they were in charge enough that they could sign an armistice and end the war, which ended up having fairly onerous conditions on Germany, the Treaty of Versailles, which is something which, as we'll see, one Adolf Hitler, I think it was, wasn't particularly fond of. And this was
00:06:39
Speaker
I don't know. It was sort of a good thing and a bad thing. It ended up being quite a good thing for the people who'd got booted out because the old government and the military, once these new guys were in charge, they could turn around and say, haha, it was all their fault we lost. It's these new guys, nothing to do with us. If they'd just let us do what we were doing, we would have won. And of course, it goes further into that. As well as these Republicans and the Weimar Republic, you have other factions within the public who were sort of unpatriotic and
00:07:08
Speaker
wanted to bring down the previous government. There were apparently a bunch of sort of Union strikes that happened around the time. Yes, Bolsheviks. Bolsheviks, socialists. And of course it turns out a particular segment of the German population that became a rather popular scapegoat in the build-up in during World War II, the Jewish population. The Jewish population. Now I suppose what we should ask here is
00:07:31
Speaker
Is it true that because the Weimar Republic came into being that Germany lost the war, were they on track to victory? Well, no. I think from what I've read, historians are more or less unanimous in the idea that Germany could not have won.
00:07:48
Speaker
World War I. They were just about out of resources at the time. America had entered the war, and they just didn't have the resources to fight back against America, although this was kind of news to the German public, I believe.
00:08:04
Speaker
Yes, because that's the whole thing. So high command and elements of the Kaiser's government after World War I went, you know, if you just let us continue, we would have won, which has made it so convenient to blame the loss of the war on the new government, the Weimar Republic.
00:08:22
Speaker
But of course that was kind of a cover story to go, actually we were about to lose, but now we can blame the fact we're about to lose on people so we don't have to take responsibility for it. A perfect cover story. Because a lot of this had sort of been hidden from the German public. The fighting
00:08:41
Speaker
was still, like, World War I wasn't being fought in Germany at the time. It's not like Germany was actually being invaded. They had previously repelled Russia. They'd pushed into France. It just turned out that, you know, they'd basically run out of steam and weren't going to get any further and were about to be defeated themselves.
Nazi Ideology and Cultural Resonance of Myths
00:08:57
Speaker
And sort of, I think, believe German losses had sort of been underreported back in Germany. So to a lot of the German public, as far as they knew, things were going pretty well, and they were, if not winning, then at least in a stalemate.
00:09:08
Speaker
with the opposing forces, so to suddenly be told, actually sorry we lost, did strike some people as quite fishy. And of course it's important to remember that in World War I victories and battles were sometimes measured by how much of an inch your line moved across a battlefield. Not miles.
00:09:27
Speaker
not fate, sometimes literally we gained an inch. But yeah, so perhaps we should mention some of the key figures here. So towards the end of the war, according to the things I've read, the things I've read basically refer to Germany as a military dictatorship by that point. The Supreme High Command General Field Marshal Paul von Hindenburg was commander in chief advising the Kaiser and essentially telling him what to do, as I understand.
00:09:56
Speaker
Although apparently it was his chief of staff, one general, Erich Ludendorff, who was mostly running the country. Hindenburg was more of a figurehead. And it was Ludendorff himself who actually popularised the phrase stab in the back. He wasn't the first person to start talking about it. Pretty much straight away there was talk going around that Germany had been betrayed in some way and that's why they lost the war. But supposedly while he was in conversation with
00:10:25
Speaker
Sir Neil Malcolm, who was the British military mission in German, Malcolm said that this is a quote from a biography of Ludendorff. Malcolm asked him, do you mean general that you were stabbed in the back? Ludendorff's eyes lit up and he leapt upon the phrase like a dog on a bone. Stabbed in the back? Yes, please, by your name. Yes, that's exactly we were stabbed in the back.
00:10:46
Speaker
And thus was born a legend which is never entirely Paris. So apparently yes, Ludendorff stabbed in the back was the exact phrase he was after, and he started banding it about everywhere. It caught on fairly widely, there were. And as you point out, it caught on fairly widely because the German population by and large were not aware of how disastrous the war effort was on the actual front because the war was not being fought in Germany.
00:11:10
Speaker
Everyone was so distant from the war and PR by Hindenburg and Co was so good that the German population by and large thought that when they were told the war was going well that the war was going well.
00:11:26
Speaker
And so, I mean, there are a bunch of factors that sort of let this thing take off fairly well. I mean, so as we've said, the civilian population perhaps wasn't well informed about how the war was actually going. Then after the war was over, the Treaty of Versailles had some fairly onerous conditions on Germany that a lot of people weren't happy with. So there was a lot of resentment there, which was
00:11:48
Speaker
sort of an attitude that was quite happy to blame things on other people. And it should be pointed out most historians do think the Treaty of Versailles was an overly honourous treaty on a capitulating Germany at the time. The forces that won really decided to punish Germany rather than reward them for basically backing down. Yes.
00:12:11
Speaker
And then there are other cultural things as well. Apparently in Germany, or at least in Germany at the time, the idea of a stab in the back had a bit more cultural significance from Wagner. One of his operas has near the climax, the hero Siegfried is stabbed in the back by his enemy Hagen with a spear, and that's a very sort of... Spear of destiny. Critical part of the thing. So there's a bit of cultural baggage to the term to begin with.
00:12:40
Speaker
And then, of course, once people started adding the Jews in as well as a scapegoat, there had long been a seam of anti-Semitism within German society, and that just sort of fed into it. So you see these political sort of newspaper cartoons with brave German soldiers being stabbed in the back, either by evil politicians or by grotesquely caricature Jewish figures. And so, yeah, the whole thing took off. And I think the reason why, in particular, I've forgotten his name now, the fellow with the five-year study,
00:13:09
Speaker
Oh, John Norton. Norton, yes. David Runciman and Richard Evans. Sir Richard Evans. Sir Richard Evans. Not that we hold any truck with titles. Indeed. And this is my title, The Good Doctor. Indeed. So the reason why he was talking about this, one thing in particular, is the idea that conspiracy theories can have quite a significant and long-lasting impact.
Allied Strategy in WWII and Modern Parallels
00:13:33
Speaker
And so this particular conspiracy theory ended up reverberating right through until and possibly after World War II. So let's talk about the role of the November criminals and the rise of national socialism.
00:13:48
Speaker
Because it's kind of one of the foundational myths that drove the Nazis into power, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, this myth allowed them to basically portray the Weimar Republic as being corrupt. They were a bunch of traitors. They betrayed their own country. Wait, because if they had pursued the war and not capitulated, they would have won. So not only were they corrupt, they were also weak.
00:14:15
Speaker
So this particular myth was something, yes, you say foundational to the National Socialist Party. Hitler himself talks about it in Mein Kampf and along with that in the Treaty of Versailles as well.
00:14:30
Speaker
Then it became in echoes of some of the things we're possibly seeing today in Trump's America. It led to quite a polarisation of society, apparently. I've read articles that talked about just a real breakdown of debate to the extent that people on one side were utterly convinced that this legend, this conspiracy theory, was completely true. People on the other side
00:14:55
Speaker
believed it was false, but there was absolutely no dialogue in between. There was no way of convincing either side that one or the other was right. And yes, so that led in a fairly direct way to the rise of Nazism, which led, of course, to World War II. And now we have mentioned the war. We mentioned the war.
00:15:14
Speaker
Never mention the war. We have to mention the war because that's the next bit in the notes. Oh, all right. Well, World War II then. World War II. What was that about? World War II, bit of a rum do, bit of a, bit of a, bit of a how's your father. We're not actually making light of one of the worst wars in human history. Well, we kind of are, but it was nearly a hundred years ago, so that makes it okay. Nearly a hundred. Well, World War I was a hundred years ago. World War II is basically World War I. It's the same thing. It's just an extra eye on the end.
00:15:45
Speaker
I'm going to go to 30. You're superior with them on this matter, obviously. No, we all know about World War II and we all know how it turned out. But one thing, apparently, the Allied policy of insisting on unconditional surrender for Germany was in part due to sort of head off another stab in the back myth. They wanted it to be clear that the German military said, yes, we have lost this war.
00:16:09
Speaker
Germany's lost the war, you know, and make it absolutely clear that it wasn't any sort of outside forces that had sort of influenced things. Germany had just plain lost. I mean, of course, you know, there are always going to be people who believe what they want to believe. And so apparently these days there are theories that maybe the German military could have won the war had Hitler not been an idiot. And I believe I have heard stories about how Hitler
00:16:35
Speaker
had some fairly silly ideas about how war should be conducted in some cases. And so there are, I believe, theories out there that said if the, again, this is sort of the politicians, if Hitler and the Nazi high command had been a bit more competent, then maybe Germany could have won the war, but I don't.
00:16:50
Speaker
actually believe that's widespread. No, I mean the theory I've heard, which is that the major difference between the Axis and the Allies' power during World War II, apart from the fact that a gay man broke the Enigma Code and thus won the war in the Allies' favour, was that the big military difference was the Allies kind of built
Military Strategy Comparisons and Betrayal Narratives
00:17:13
Speaker
kit-set machinery from tanks to planes and they built the same designs and they did minor iterations on them but by and large when they built a plane they built a lot of those planes. Whilst the Germans kept on experimenting with R&D to build newer tanks and newer planes
00:17:32
Speaker
and they just ran out of money very quickly because actually you just want reliable service vehicles you don't want the next best technology in the middle of a war you want lots of tanks not two or three really good tanks that may work in an RTS doesn't actually work in a war
00:17:52
Speaker
Yes, and then just the question of resources by the later stage of the war, you know, the Allies had essentially the entire world to draw from, whereas Germany could only gather what resources existed within its own territory. It was exhausting quite quickly, whilst the Allies had America and the Commonwealth to produce an ore. I mean, so my grandfather on my father's side was a pattern maker in World War II, which meant he produced the patterns for producing shells.
00:18:20
Speaker
So he was essential service here. He produced the patterns to make shells, to send to the front. We were producing a lot of armaments to keep that war going.
00:18:31
Speaker
interesting story my grandfather went to prison as a conscientious objector and I really can't complain about that because he met my grandmother through the peace movement so had he not been a conscientious objector I would not exist so good to him. I have German ancestry and I was relieved to find out with a discussion with my mother the other night that my great great uncle was imprisoned in World War II
00:18:59
Speaker
as a journalist for reporting against the Nazi regime, where those two cases go, oh, thank God they went to prison, because at least they weren't supporting the Nazis. So yeah, so I don't think anyone realistically thinks Germany could have won World War Two, but in an effort to head off another sort of myth springing up around it that could have
00:19:21
Speaker
you know, in order to break the cycle so that we didn't another, you know, 20 years later, have another Hitler come along, bringing up grievances from World War Two and saying they could have lost it if they just pushed ahead. They insisted on unconditional surrender. But the whole idea of a military effort being betrayed by the folks back home or other outside civilian forces is something that I mean, it's come up before then, and it's come up after then as well.
Historical and Modern 'Betrayal' Narratives Reflection
00:19:47
Speaker
When I was first reading about the whole thing, my first thought
00:19:49
Speaker
of course, was Vietnam, because there you hear opinions essentially suggesting that America could have won Vietnam. It was the Dan hippie. The politicians and the hippies and the liberal media back home are what really killed the war effort there, which is, from what I understand,
00:20:06
Speaker
possibly less untrue than it was in the case of the the stab in the back myth I don't know I've done a small amount of reading which suggested that there was some truth to the fact that politicians were interfering with within the military operations of well I mean there's the classic story that gets told about
00:20:26
Speaker
Nixon campaigning on the presidential trail to end the war in Vietnam whilst working behind the scenes to ensure the war in Vietnam continues past the election so that his predecessor won't be able to take the claim for ending the Vietnam War. So campaigning on ending the Vietnam War while sustaining it until such time you get to end it definitively.
00:20:50
Speaker
I mean, militarily, apparently, like there were things like supposedly every bombing run had to be approved by the commander in chief. So the generals actually in charge had a lot less autonomy than they normally would. And then, of course, there was the public pressure. Vietnam was the first sort of widely televised war that gave the public back home a genuine idea of exactly what war was like. And people found it wasn't actually to their liking.
00:21:15
Speaker
Turns out it's actually not a day in the park. So, I mean, I don't know. I've sort of seen a few diverging opinions. Some people say that certainly America was losing the war at the time they pulled out, but maybe had things worked a little bit differently. I mean, they certainly were.
00:21:31
Speaker
the Viet Cong casualties were much higher than the US casualties. They were inflicting much greater casualties. So some people have thought, yes, the US could have won the war in Vietnam, but what does winning the war in Vietnam even look like? And public opinion did play a large factor in stopping the war, but is that actually a bad thing? Warm. What is it good for? Making lots of money and also lots of dead people.
00:21:58
Speaker
Save again. Yes. So, yes, that's that's the stab in the back myth for you. You may well have heard other of other conflicts where a similar thing came up because I mean, it's a tempting thing to say, isn't it? It's always tempting to explain a loss by blaming someone else for that loss. So we didn't we didn't really lose. I mean, we would have won that rugby match in South Africa hadn't been for that that damn waitress. Yes, yes. It hadn't been for the one eyed referee.
00:22:27
Speaker
Yeah, so it's an interesting little bit of history. Yeah, I think it probably is a good example of how a conspiracy theory can have particularly wide-ranging and significant effects. Indeed. Indeed.
Current Conspiracy Theories and Media Discussion
00:22:40
Speaker
Talking about things with wide-ranging and significant effects, the news. The news. The news. Breaking, breaking, conspiracy theories in the news.
00:22:54
Speaker
Up first, IT! Tell-Up Communication Providers in Aotearoa, New Zealand have been told by our Government Communication and Security Bureau, the GCSB, that they cannot use equipment from Huawei in the forthcoming rollout of the 5G network. This is conspiratorial because not only is Huawei a Chinese company, and people locally are worried about China's expansion of soft power,
00:23:18
Speaker
but also because there is a lingering fear that China has installed backdoors in Huawei's equipment all the better to spy on us.
00:23:36
Speaker
in the rival US equipment we will likely use instead. In essence the GCSB has had to choose between our traditional spying partners or a new dancer. It's not really a question of privacy, it's a question of who do we want conspiring against us. I really thought the future would be cooler. And now an editorial by M, a Meditorial if you will. Thank you Josh. Recently... We're not using a second camera.
00:24:01
Speaker
Then what's that camera doing over there? I can't remember which secret government agency it is this week. Ah yes, anyway. Earlier this week a New Zealand Herald columnist Rachel Stewart decided to wade in on the whole turf as a slur debate and likely and inadvertently engage in some crypto anti-Semitism.
00:24:21
Speaker
Just as a sidebar, because she's threatened legal action against critics in the past, we're not saying Rachel Stewart is an anti-Semite, but she did cite an anti-Semitic dog whistle when she placed the blame for a trans-activist big-pharma conspiracy to change human biology on good old George Soros.
00:24:39
Speaker
George Soros, a Hungarian-born US citizen we've mentioned on the show in the past, is the boogeyman for right-wing conservative groups at the moment. In Eastern Europe, for example, he's blamed for promoting the sin of open government. In the US, he's blamed for promoting socialism.
00:24:57
Speaker
And in the UK, he's now blamed for backing the Remain camp and for promoting transgender rights. Now the thing is, he does do a lot of those things. Soros is a very, very rich liberal with an interest in progressive politics. But Soros also has another notable feature. He's Jewish. And an awful lot of the attacks on him as a financier are anti-Semitic.
00:25:21
Speaker
which is why it was so sketchy of Stewart to tie him to a big pharma conspiracy to also human biology. After all, why invoke the scary Jewish financier at all unless invoking him had some kind of special impact for your argument? What's particularly galling is that Stewart presumably agrees with a lot of Soros' funded work. His foundations have poured money into combating climate change as well as improving animal welfare, both causes she has passionately written about.
00:25:51
Speaker
So where are Stuart getting this from? Well, British TERFs and transphobes who have quite successfully colonised online discussion around the trans movement with Ground Zero being the Mumsnet website. Where scare stories of hormone blockers or the taking of testosterone by children as young as five come from. Mumsnet users basically couldn't understand why the youth seemed so united in favour of the trans.
00:26:19
Speaker
That is, older people thought the next generation couldn't possibly be thinking for themselves. It had to be some outside force. And what better outside force than the 20th century's favourite enemy hiding in plain sight, the Jew? So stew her secret antisemite? I suspect not.
00:26:37
Speaker
I just think she's lazily repeating positions which turn out to be dog whistles, but that's almost as bad. A lazy opinion piece writer who inadvertently uses crypto anti-Semitic slurs should not get pages, and what is really our only newspaper of record. And that's the scary part.
00:26:55
Speaker
Repressive ideologies are not usually enacted by a body corporate which knows exactly what it is doing. They become the norm because people are lazy and fail to engage with the politics.
00:27:11
Speaker
alleged messings? Well, yes. Earlier this week, The Guardian reported, citing anonymous sources and a secret document, that in 2016, shortly before Paul Manafort joined the Trump campaign team, he, that is Manafort, met with Julian Assange. Months later, those pesky DNC emails leaked, causing issues in the presidential campaign of one… was it Hillary Clinton?
00:27:35
Speaker
Now I say alleged before because Assange and Manafort have denied the existence of these meetings, and others dating back as far as 2013. If the meetings had occurred, this would be a disaster for Trump.
00:27:50
Speaker
As it links the campaign team to Assange and WikiLeaks. And of course it would also explain why Manafort was put in charge of the campaign team initially. He was the guy who had the dirt. But the question is, did the meetings happen? The Guardian article is light on evidence and heavy on insinuation. As the Intercept points out, London is one of the most surveilled cities in the world and the Ecuadorian embassy even more so.
00:28:18
Speaker
So where's the video footage of Manafort being in the city at the time? And the lack of visitor log details about Manafort's visits are troubling, especially since the Guardian has obtained said logs. Now, none of this is to say the meetings did not occur, but the evidence presented in favour of them relies entirely on anonymous or secret sources.
00:28:40
Speaker
The claims fit a particular narrative of collusion in the presidential campaign team for Donald J. Trump, but until we get corroborating evidence, we should probably remain skeptical. Talking about being skeptical, if you've been skeptical of joining our Patreon, let us enjoin you with the promise of these morsels. The writer of Shrek, Terry Rossio, compares the label anti-vaxxer to that n-word that we are not going to say.
00:29:06
Speaker
The Return of JFK Junior. 20 years dead but still going strong. And an OJ Simpson update. Where's that wacky rapscallion up to now? Plus I might break out my Hans Gruber impression. Yippee-ki-yack other buckets. But until next week. Goodbye.
00:29:35
Speaker
You've been listening to the Podcaster's Guide to the Conspiracy, starring Josh Addison and Dr. M.R. Extended, which is written, researched, recorded and produced by Josh and Em. You can support the podcast by becoming a patron, via its Podbean or Patreon campaigns. And if you need to get in contact with either Josh or Em, you can email them at podcastconspiracyatgmail.com or check their Twitter accounts, Mikey Fluids and Conspiracism.
00:30:36
Speaker
And remember, the truth is out there. But not quite where you think you left it.