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The Prophecy of the Popes
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This week we look into a 450-year-old compilation of 900-year-old prophecies about who's going to be the pope. Unless it's actually a 450-year-old fake about who we want to be the pope. In either case, it makes one thing clear: there are now Too Many Popes. (Which is like Too Many Cooks, but with fancier hats.)
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Transcript
Introduction and Upcoming Podcast Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
And so it was foretold that Josh would podcast on June 20th 2025 with we get it?
00:00:09
Speaker
ten yes so shall we get into it The ancient text said that Josh, known as the father of two and ambivalent about most things, would lack patience in the endeavour, for he was a tired man who desired nothing more than an early knight.
00:00:27
Speaker
Okay, what's going on? This, in turn, would lead to confusion and, eventually, anger. It's not so much anger as it is annoyance at yet another pointless introduction.
00:00:42
Speaker
Yet in Josh's frustration, an idea was born. An idea that would have grave repercussions. Look, can just go to the theme? And lo, a theme tune was played, meaning that Josh would have to podcast once more.
00:00:59
Speaker
Hmm, actually.
Discussion on Country Names and Colonialism
00:01:06
Speaker
The Podcaster's Guide to Conspiracy, brought to you today by Josh Addison and Ian Dentist.
00:01:26
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Podcaster's Guide to the Conspiracy in Aotearoa, New Zealand. I am Josh Addison and in Xiong'o, China? it Guangzhou.
00:01:38
Speaker
Guangzhou. Guangzhou is the place, but the name the the Chinese name for China Xiong'o. Oh, yes. yeah Yes. I'm not speaking a tonal language. I'm never quite certain getting that right. But anyway, the point is we both... The Middle Kingdom, Joshua. The Middle Kingdom.
00:01:56
Speaker
We both live in countries that have names in multiple languages.
Matariki Celebration and Political Context
00:02:00
Speaker
And in New Zealand, indeed, today is yeah he was I suspect, actually,
00:02:06
Speaker
china has andmatic language is one well get weird So China has one official name and one official let language.
00:02:17
Speaker
New Zealand is a kind of an interesting situation. It had a name and then people colonized it and gave it another name. And now there's a big fight as to whether we should go back to what should be the original name or stick with the colonial imposition. And China basically has that kind of situation that for people outside of the Middle Kingdom, refer to this place as China and refer to the people in it as Chinese, even though that's really more of an imposition from colonial powers to name such things.
00:02:48
Speaker
Exactly. I don't even know where the word came from. but But anyway, in New Zealand, in Aotearoa at least, it is Matariki. Today, we we we got... Who gave us Mathuriki as a public holiday? It was the last Labour government, right? and It was. It's only a few years old. Definitely wanted to take it away, but National have decided to keep it.
Unsettling Extremism Appearance and Conspiracy Theories
00:03:08
Speaker
Yep. So that's what it is today. um So happy Matariki to those who celebrate. Now we have an episode. It's a regular episode. It's not a book. has I can guarantee that it has nothing to do with Tunnel Vision by Martin Butler. I shouldn't have even said those words. I'm afraid I've signed it. It'd be terrible if I guess it. Actually, even though i I've told you what the topic is, actually, we've got a new... Yeah, no, no. it's it's where North Head is behind us now.
00:03:36
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Everybody's lurking right behind you right now. Josh, watch out. North Head's right behind you. ah good. It can stay there. that That's why people throw salt over their shoulder, to get in North Head's eye, I believe.
00:03:49
Speaker
Now, before we get in to this brand new episode of brand new stuff that has nothing to do with tunnels under North Head, you've been stepping out on me again, you sly gangster. you you you You faithless, you.
00:04:01
Speaker
wanton person you Tell me about the latest podcast appearance. I made an appearance on Unsettling Extremism, a podcast hosted by Avery s Smith, which is part of He Whenua Taurikura, which is Joanna Kidman's research group at the University of Wellington, Victoria University, Wellington University, of Victoria.
00:04:23
Speaker
ah People who know anything about the naming of universities in New Zealand will find that immensely funny or annoying. And people outside of New Zealand will go, why has it got a strange name? It's because nobody knows what that university is called anymore.
00:04:36
Speaker
They keep changing its name and then changing it back. So what's the general like project? of this group and the podcast? So the group is looking at misinformation and disinformation with a particular emphasis on what's going on Aotearoa.
00:04:55
Speaker
And so I was talking about what our general view towards these things called conspiracy theory should be. Because there is a sense in the misinformation-disinformation space that conspiracy theories quite easily fit into the misinformation space and often are used as disinformation, so they're propaganda for right-wing views.
Israel-Iran Conflict and Iraq WMD Parallels
00:05:18
Speaker
And so my argument was that we need to be slightly more nuanced about that because one of the reasons why people fall for misinformation and fall for disinformation is because there are actual conspiracies out there of people who are creating misinformation and disinformation.
00:05:39
Speaker
So conspiracy theories are sometimes symptomatic of misinformation and disinformation. But sometimes actual conspiracies are generating that misinformation and disinformation, and thus we should be taking those conspiracy theories seriously, because theorizing about the generation of misinformation and disinformation is warranted in a large number of cases. And of course,
00:06:03
Speaker
We're seeing this play out right now with the Israel-Iran conflict, where Israel and now the U.S. is adamant that Iran is weeks away from producing a nuclear weapon, which seems an awful lot like what happened back in 2003, where the U.K. and the U.S. were adamant that the Iraqi regime under Saddam Hussein were in the production phase of weapons of mass destruction, thus legitimizing a regime change.
Introduction to the Prophecy of the Popes
00:06:35
Speaker
And in the 2003 case, there was quite clearly a conspiracy theory being laundered by the US and the UK to justify regime change in Iraq.
00:06:47
Speaker
And many people are thinking that might be a conspiracy theory being promoted by the government of Israel and the United States in order to promote regime regime change in Iran.
00:06:58
Speaker
Yes, it's all a little bit of a worry. History is repeating itself, Josh, and I don't like it. No, no. Well, then it's a good thing we're not going to talk about anything to do with that. And we're just going to dig our heads in the sand and instead talk about what some popes were saying several hundred years ago. Or at least what was said about some popes. Not what the popes saying, what was said about some popes.
00:07:22
Speaker
Yes, and then what the popes said about what was said about them. Anyway, there's whole lot of popes. Let's get into it. There's been a lot of popes. A lot. An awful lot of popes. it's It's almost like the church has been around for multiple thousands of years.
00:07:37
Speaker
And we're only going to be talking about half of them. Oh, God, is that all? right Right, well, then we better we better we better play a chime and get straight into it while there's still hopes left. We should play something kind of saintly. Ecclesiastical, yeah. Find a good sound clip.
00:07:53
Speaker
e
00:08:12
Speaker
Right, now this, thinking about it, this this could possibly have been a ah what the conspiracy episode, because I think you're going to be doing most of the talking on this one, given that it's about Catholic Popey stuff that I don't really understand at all. And I suspect my main contribution to this episode is going to be pronouncing foreign names.
00:08:32
Speaker
But hit hit hit me with it. what What is the prophecy of the popes? Or the Prophetia Sancti Malachi Archiepiscope de Sumnus Pontificus, aka the prophecy of Saint-Artsbishop Malachi concerning the Supreme Pontus.
00:08:48
Speaker
Now, I was sure we had talked about this in a previous episode. So I thought this was going to be a kind of return back to something we had talked about and then make it, well, now that we've got Pope Leo, what do we make of the prophecy of the popes? But Josh is adamant we have never mentioned the prophecy of the popes before.
00:09:09
Speaker
Were we broadcasting when Francis became pope? I think we were. but think to our podcast is older than the pontificate of Pope Francis. Yes, definitely. So I'm sure I must have mentioned this when he was consecrated as Pope. No, no, no, it's not, because I remember in one of our recent ones, we were looking back at your old radio segments from... Oh, no, you're right.
00:09:37
Speaker
One of the things about Benedict stepping down. So I am... Hope Papers older than this podcast. signface is Something that is actually older than this podcast. Yeah.
00:09:47
Speaker
i And neology there aren't that many things. yeah so yes So obviously this is ah a case where I must have mentioned the Prophecy of the Popes when I was doing things for BFM, and I've just conflated BFM with this podcast as I am wont to do So the Prophecy of the Popes is a...
00:10:08
Speaker
Selection of 112 short cryptic phrases in Latin, and they are attributed to a 12th century saint by the name of melachi who was a Archbishop in Ireland who apparently wrote a series of prophecies of popes to be from his perspective of the 12th century.
00:10:40
Speaker
And what's interesting about this list of popes is that
Historical Accuracy and Interpretation Challenges
00:10:45
Speaker
it has a final pope, a final boss of the Roman Catholic Church.
00:10:52
Speaker
And if the prophecy of Malachi is is to be believed, that final pope was Pope Francis, which does raise an interesting question.
00:11:05
Speaker
Who's this Pope Leo Malady if Pope Francis was the final pope? Right, so it was 112 phrases. Is that
00:11:16
Speaker
Yes, 112 popes. i mean So essentially what the prophecies of St Malachi are, are cryptic phrases which are meant to be in some respect a description of the person who will be pope.
00:11:34
Speaker
And then, ah i mean, actually we and win when we he need to get into the history of when these prophecies were uncovered to actually explain what's going on here. So let's actually go through the prophecies themselves.
00:11:49
Speaker
So the prophecies of St. Malachi are purported to predict popes, along with a few antipopes of the Roman Catholic Church, beginning with Celestine second who was almost the 163rd Pope.
00:12:07
Speaker
Almost the 163rd Pope. how do you How do you become almost a Pope? Did the hat not fit? Well, so what happened was that Celestian elected in conclave And then a day later, the person who would have been Celestine II abdicated due to factional violence. So there was an actual riot in St. Peter's.
00:12:35
Speaker
And so the person who would be Pope and had already chosen his papal name of Celestine II decided that they've actually being Pope wasn't a good idea given how violent the conclave had turned out to be.
00:12:49
Speaker
and thus decided to step down and allow another person to be Pope. So Celestine II was never actually ordained or consecrated as Pope. He was selected to be Pope, chose a papal name, but never actually got around to kind of signing the paperwork to be actually made Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church.
00:13:12
Speaker
Right, but they were Celestine II as the first pope identified in the prophecies, though. Or at least, I assume this is going to be a bit of a Nostradamus-y thing, where there's a whole bunch of kind of vague statements that people interpret to be talking about different popes when it suits them. Yes, precisely. It is it is very Nostradamus-y. And actually, the fact that Celestine II is the first person presented as pope in the list is going to be something which is interesting for why people think these prophecies turn out to be spoilers not true anyway what we have is a number of phrases which are meant to identify these particular popes and then for some of them but not all of them
00:14:03
Speaker
there's an interpretation of the phrase, explaining what the phrase means and how it accords to a particular person in history. And the reason why we have some explanations of the cryptic phrases and not others is that the prophecy of the popes, even though it's a tested to have been written in the 12th century was first published in 1595.
00:14:32
Speaker
And it was first published in 1595 by a Benedictine monk by the name of Arnold Wion, who claims to have found the prophecies of Saint Malachi and published them for the first time.
00:14:51
Speaker
Right, so i'm going to assume at some point there's going to be a bit of controversy around are these actually 400-year-old papers that this guy found, or did he make them up himself, or did they come from somewhere else?
00:15:04
Speaker
Bingo! Yeah, but but at any rate, so we've got, I assume, the assuming they're genuine, these prophecies started from the time of St Malachi and went off into the future then?
00:15:18
Speaker
Yes, so St Malachi is writing before the election of Celestine the second so it's predicting the first pope and the lesser pope elected in 1143. Then the the text is is lost or kept in storage for years.
00:15:41
Speaker
What happens is that Wion goes to Rome, discovers the prophecies locked up in the secret archives of the Vatican, and decides that the public needs to know about these, although sometimes the story is is read that there were people who knew about the prophecies and wanted them published. So all Wion is doing is pleasing the public there by finally releasing the prophecies of St. Malachi to the public, although there's no evidence that anyone knew about these prophecies before Wion actually published them in 1595. But whatever he does, he he publishes the prophecies
00:16:24
Speaker
attributing them to saint malachi who was the 12th century Bishop of Amarg in Ireland. And because he's publishing them in 1595, he's able to provide interpretations of the phrases...
00:16:42
Speaker
up until 1595, because he has been in correspondence with another Roman Catholic, a historian by the name of Alphonsus Ciacchionis, who is a known one historian of the papacy who is based in Rome. So Riona's going, look, i I've got these prophecies.
00:17:05
Speaker
They were written in the 12th century. ah They refer to a whole bunch of popes that Malachi is predicting. And of course, now with the benefit of history, I can look at all of the popes up until the present day and get a notable historian of the papacy to tell us which names these accord to, and how they fit.
00:17:30
Speaker
So how does the short cryptic phrase describe known popes up until the present day? And it's amazing how accurate this list turns out to be, which means that, of course, the future popes that Malachi was predicting, that must be pretty accurate as well.
00:17:50
Speaker
Yes, yes, no, that's what i was going to say. You've got... At the time, at the time Wion is finding them, you've got these prophecies from 400 years in the past, predicting 400 years worth of popes, plus another, I guess, 400 or 500 worth after that.
00:18:07
Speaker
So they've got this list and they've got 400 years worth of history, and now they go match the two up. Is this where things get Nostradamus-y? Yeah, so basically, i mean, I'll give you some examples of...
00:18:21
Speaker
some of the entries. So there are a lot of popes. So I should point out Celestine II would have technically have been 163rd pope the Roman Catholic Church.
00:18:34
Speaker
of the roman catholic church in the 12th century. So there are a lot of popes in the past and in the 400 years there's quite a number of popes in that time.
00:18:48
Speaker
So you get some examples, sus en cribo or pig in sieve. ah Now this is referring to Pope Urban III in And it's because his papal arms included two pigs and a sieve, or sieve, as people will probably say.
00:19:08
Speaker
an odd thing to have on one's coat of arms, maybe. I don't know what the the heraldic connotations of a sieve is, but... so Papal arms are kind of interesting in that they usually indicate something about the past of the man who has become Pope.
00:19:26
Speaker
So they often, i mean, it turns out to be no surprise. Most of the princes of the church, the cardinals, didn't come from the poor or the working classes. They tended to be members of the nobility, and thus they tended to keep some of the noble aspect of their past.
00:19:46
Speaker
in the coat of arms they had when they became Pope. Right. So, actually, I'm looking down the list and there's some good stuff here, so let's just go straight into that. We've also got Come Signatus, or design Designated Count, that's Pope Innocent III. I just like that one because it does sound a little bit like the but system they have in the US, the design the designated survivor, the person who takes over the government should all of the the top ranks get removed. you also the designated count.
00:20:18
Speaker
I think that's great. His job is to go on Sesame Street. The next one, Aguinas Yeur or Sneaky Man? Sneaky Man! Good on you, Sneaky Man!
00:20:30
Speaker
ah this is Pope Gregory the tenth and His coat of arms were the coat of arms of the Viscounts of Milan, which featured a large serpent devouring a male child. Because because aristocrats are normal and ordinary people.
00:20:47
Speaker
Yeah, although this this... This one, the interpretation is ever so slightly shaky because people aren't actually sure whether Gregory whetherer gregory the tenth actually used that on his paper alarms, but it is certainly associated with the family he comes from.
00:21:06
Speaker
and Then we get picus inter effacus, or woodpecker between food. and This refers to Pope Nicholas IV, and it's thought to be obscure wordplay about his place of birth. Woodpecker between food.
00:21:22
Speaker
Not some sort of reference to the fact that he lost his penis in a strange accident and had to have it replaced with a wooden one? Which he used to stir his food with. i don't I mean, maybe. sure he could make a better story.
00:21:33
Speaker
I mean, popes have done some strange things with their penises over time. yes. No one disputes that. Then we get di fitore othio, or from a bony cobbler.
00:21:46
Speaker
And this refers to Pope John XXII, whose father might have been a cobbler from the town of Ossia. No one actually knows this is an interpretation of, well, I mean, it might refer to his dad.
00:22:01
Speaker
e and suppose. And finally, from my list of favourites, which are pre-1590, there's a reason why where these are the pre-1590 popes, Phrygius Abbas, or the Cold Abbot.
00:22:18
Speaker
Sounds a bit like the Monty Python, the the biggest dickus. lesson which is add Frigidus Abbas. And that's Pope Benedict XII, who was an abbot in the monastery of von Freud, which translates to Cold Spring.
00:22:36
Speaker
yeah Which Benedict was the latest Benedict? He was like 16 or something? I think so. havet really i feel I don't really keep up with the number with the numbering of quotes. I know the current Pope is Pope Leo, but exactly which Leo he I think he's Leo II.
00:22:52
Speaker
I think he is But if you actually if I had to answer that to say to save the world, I would be going, i might want to ring a friend. e Okay, so we've got a bunch of a bunch of historical, at which were at the time historical papacies and a bunch of... And all of those ones up until the 1590s are provided with interpretations by a notable Roman historian of the papacy.
00:23:20
Speaker
So things look pretty good at this stage. Yeah. Except. once Well, i was going to say, once they get these ones, do they just present them and say, therefore, these ones must also be going to come true? Or were there sort of, were there interpretations along with them as well saying what they think they're going make? Post-1590, we just have the cryptic phrases, and interpretations have been made of those phrases.
00:23:47
Speaker
post factorctor So everyone has gone, well, now we've had this particular Pope. We now need to work out how does the phrase accord to the man who was consecrated Pope.
00:23:58
Speaker
But prior to that, no, we have a notable historian doing the work, except... There's no evidence this notable historian historian knew we are, even though they were both living in what we now call Italy at the time.
00:24:12
Speaker
And Chachionis, who is the Roman historian here, also dies four years after the prophecies are written, and nobody puts the prophecies of St. Malachi in amongst his known written works.
00:24:31
Speaker
Right, so who's do do we just have Weon's word for it that he consulted this historian? Yeah, basically. And this is where Celestine II ends up being a bit of an issue here, because Chucky Onis would be the kind of person who would go, Celestine II was never Pope.
00:24:50
Speaker
He was elected pope, but he was never ordained or consecrated as pope. He was an almost pope, not a real pope. So this is the first historical era we find in the prophecies of St. Malachi.
00:25:05
Speaker
And what's interesting here is that the eras in the pre-1595 popes are all errors that we find in a history of the popes as published in 1557 by this man by the name of Onofrio Panvenio.
00:25:25
Speaker
So Panvenio's work makes errors like saying that Celestine II was a pope when he wasn't. And so it seems that what Wion was doing was going, i need and need a well-attested to, well-respected source.
00:25:42
Speaker
to show that these interpretations are correct, because I've stolen them from one source, but I'm associating them with a notable historian like Chikionis instead, a man whose name I've pronounced three different ways in the course of this podcast.
00:25:59
Speaker
I would say, actually because the double C's in the middle, I would say Chanias, Kia Chanius. I don't know if it's Latin rather than the Italian. could be and It could be literally anything. Pronounce it however you want. He's deepening it through 500 years. And the pronunciation of Italian and Latin, particularly in the Middle Ages, is heavily disputed.
00:26:24
Speaker
Well, there we go. I'm going to call him Ralph. I mean, surely if you're going to use his first name, why does he call him Alphonsus? I could... so I mean, he's not going to come up again, so it doesn't really matter doesn't matter. doesn't matter. Forget him.
00:26:36
Speaker
So, right. So so these questions, is what you're saying. So we we have an obvious historical error at the very beginning of the prophecy of the popes. And...
00:26:48
Speaker
We also have what appears to be fairly good evidence that the person who is said to be the interpreter, Alphonsus, is not because the errors we find in the interpretations actually belong to Pan Veneo instead.
00:27:05
Speaker
And this is why most people think that the prophecies are a forgery. Malachi did exist. He was an Irish saint who was the Archbishop of Amarg in the 12th century, but there's no record of the prophecies basically before Wion publishes them.
00:27:26
Speaker
And interestingly enough, the Roman Catholic Church has no stance whatsoever on the legitimacy of these prophecies.
00:27:37
Speaker
It's a little bit like the issue around the Shroud of Turin. The Catholic Church has never... Well, actually, that's not true. The modern Catholic Church...
00:27:49
Speaker
Neither claims the Shroud of Turin is a fake, nor does it claim it's an actual relic of Jesus Christ. They go, it's a holy object that people venerate, and that's all we're going to say about the matter. matter We don't really want to get into the legitimacy or origin of the Shroud. is so so It's a venerated object, and that's what it is.
00:28:13
Speaker
And the prophecies are kind of in the same thing. There's certainly a list of popes. That is the Catholic Church's start to list. It is a list of popes. Or least it's a list of attested popes.
00:28:25
Speaker
And it is definitely from the 1590s. Yes. It is published at that point. and thus Obviously, all of the popes pre the 1590s, apart from Celestine II, for example, seems to be a fairly accurate list of popes that have been, because by the 1590s, you already know about those popes.
00:28:54
Speaker
and The question becomes, what do we make about the popes after the fifteen ninety s Well, yes. So I assume this is, i I assume the reason why we're still talking about this to this day is because people have gone through the list post-1590 tried to map it to all the popes that came after.
00:29:12
Speaker
Well, precisely. And I mean, so as as I think, there kind of there are two interesting things here. So obviously the pre-1590 popes seem to be an accurate assaying of men who have been pope, apart from a few problems like Celestine II.
00:29:32
Speaker
And so we have these short cryptic phrases that fit the men who took the role. If the prophecies are a forgery, then obviously it's quite easy to go through a list of people who were popes and then go, what's a short cryptic phrase that suggests Nicholas IV? Oh, well, you know, we've got the papal arms here, something, something, something, snaky man.
00:29:55
Speaker
But everything after the 1590s, you have these cryptic phrases that could by and large just mean anything.
00:30:06
Speaker
And so then the interesting question is, are they accurate, which would mean the prophecy may well be accurate, or are people really stretching to make people kind of fit these short cryptic phrases?
00:30:22
Speaker
And then, of course, the other big issue is, List ends with a final pope. And that final pope would seem to be, depending on who you talk to, either Benedict or Francis, but definitely not Leo. Leo is at least one pope too far.
00:30:40
Speaker
So what's up with Leo? is Is the final one and the list actually identified as the final Pope, or is it just... Yes, exactly. So, et Petrus Romanus, Petrus Romanus qui passet always in motis triblianius, qui bis transductionis siatus... Oh, this is where I end up going. My reading of lesson is... Sept ceolus dirigator et ludics tremendous...
00:31:09
Speaker
you does a bit popul the finness which is very badly read out Latin. I apologize to the one or two people who may vaguely know Latin who listen to this podcast, who are going, oh my God, I'm unsubscribing based upon that bit of tragedy.
00:31:25
Speaker
But the translation, which I can read because it is in English, Peter the Roman, who will pasture his sheep in many tribulations, and when these things are finished, the city destroyed, and city Hills will be destroyed,
00:31:37
Speaker
and the dreadful judge will judge his people. The end. Which pretty much wraps it up for the Roman Catholic Church and also Rome. Now, I don't know about you, Josh, but after Pope Francis died, Rome was not destroyed.
00:31:52
Speaker
It wasn't, nor was Pope Francis anything that could really be thought of as Peter the Roman. I mean, he was a pastor of sheeps. I suppose. but He did have many tribulations. He had many health issues during his time. yeah That's true. That's true. Although I'm sure that i'm sure for pretty much every papacy you could point to some tribulations. I know the dreadful judge, so ah Simon Cowell, has been judging his people for quite some time, but it didn't seem to bring about the end of the world.
00:32:21
Speaker
No, no. maybe Maybe it didn't. We didn't notice. But yeah. Okay, so so we've got a list of popes. it has It has a definite end, and it contains only so many popes that there have now been more than that.
00:32:37
Speaker
um i guess I guess the first thing to ask is... have the Have these post-1591s been in any way accurate sounding? Or has there been some fairly severe reaching to make the map to the popes that we have?
00:32:51
Speaker
Well, should we have a look at some of the pre... Yeah. So post-1590 popes. So let's bring up our list of the prophecy of the popes. So, yeah, post well these these are called the post-publication popes, the 1590s to the present.
00:33:09
Speaker
And we have pious citizens in war, innocent the ninth. And the interpretation here is proponents of the prophecies. And we're we're going from the Wikipedia guide here. I should point out, if you look up prophecy of the popes,
00:33:25
Speaker
Most of the things you find are people saying, this is an amazing list, it might be a forgery. There's actually very little contemporary commentary on the prophecy of the popes one can find. So the wi Wikipedia article for the actual list is actually as as good as you tend to find online.
00:33:44
Speaker
But yes, for Innocent, the ninth proponents of the prophecies have suggested... different interpretations relate this motto to Innocent the Ninth, including references to his birthplace of Bologna or the title of the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
00:34:02
Speaker
Leo IX, who was ah the Dodus Eur, or wavy man. This may have been intended by the author of the prophecies to suggest to his audience a possible heraldic design, but it does not correspond to Leo IX's Medici arms.
00:34:20
Speaker
Proponents of the prophecies have also suggested different interpretations to relate this motto to this pope, including relating it to a short reign, passing like a wave. and So this is the standard interpretation one gets.
00:34:34
Speaker
so So if that was Leo IX, then the current one can't be the second. Hang on. it's the 14th. God, he's the 14th. I told you, if you had to save the world, we'd need to read a friend. Horribly wrong. Anyway, it doesn't matter for the current discussion. So so that's...
00:34:48
Speaker
Are they all like that? seems like you sort have to do a bit of fast talking make any of these things like that. Yeah, mean, you get Beluar in Fatrialvis, the insatiable beast.
00:35:00
Speaker
This is Innocent the 11th. Proponents of the prophecies have attempted to link this motto to the lion on Innocent the 11th's arms. Really, if ah if I heard of someone who was prophesied to be the insatiable beast, I would yeah different here i would have gone for help.
00:35:18
Speaker
How many children did this pope actually have whilst in the pack? to say You get Raftum Importer or Rake in the Door. Some sources discussing the prophecy give Innocent the Twelfth's family name as Pignatelli del Rastallo.
00:35:35
Speaker
which would provide a clear way for opponents to connect this motto to this Pope. Rossello or Rastralo is Italian for rake. Others, however, give the Pope's family name simply as Pignatelli, and indicate that it is difficult to find a satisfactory explanation to associate the Pope with the motto.
00:35:52
Speaker
Right, so even even now, there is there's a bit of debate, I guess, about whether or not these these the commentaries are actually getting it on the nose or not. Yeah, yeah. So it is becoming incredibly awkward to find anything to give you a hard and fast connection between most of the members of this list and the popes that have come after Wion supposedly discovered the prophecies when he was in Rome.
00:36:22
Speaker
Right.
Prophecy as Potential Propaganda
00:36:23
Speaker
So, and then, I mean, we're we're sort of quibbling over details here when there is still the fact that there have been more popes than this thing lists. And it says the last one on its list is the last pope. So are people still taking this seriously? are people ah Do people now feel the need to explain how this can be? or have people just gone, oh, okay, well, I guess then...
00:36:45
Speaker
it's It was all just a bit of fun. Well, people have done a little bit of bending to try and work out how they can make the prophecies fit the fact that the popes don't really match particularly well, and especially the fact that there are...
00:37:03
Speaker
There are more popes than there are popes on the list of Malachi. And so some people think that maybe the list is incomplete, that there are popes between listed popes.
00:37:16
Speaker
This would A, allow for Celestine II to appear on the list, despite the fact that Celestine II was never a pope. And that would resolve the issue because Leo tends not to be the last pope,
00:37:30
Speaker
because we can simply massage list and say there are some popes missing, which means that the prophecies of St. Malachi is simply meant to be a list of the notable popes.
00:37:42
Speaker
And that also means you can start massaging the list and go, well, look, this match isn't particularly good for, say, Leo XII, but if we move Leo XII up or down the list, then we might find a better match.
00:37:59
Speaker
Or we say, oh, Leo XII wasn't one of the notable ones, so there isn't actually a prophecy that corresponds to Yeah, yeah. And some people are going, well, look, maybe there are more antipopes in the list than have currently been counted. So antipopes are a situation where you have more than one pontiff at a time, and the pope that ends up being the accredited one in history becomes the pope, and the pope that ends up not being considered the pope by history ends up being the antipope, and sometimes there's been multiple antipopes.
00:38:34
Speaker
People are going, well, look, maybe the list we're counting too many or too few antipopes in the list, which would be indication that Malachi had a different judgment as to who was supreme pontiff compared to the Roman Catholic Church themselves.
00:38:51
Speaker
And this would allow you to once again massage the list. So the historian Herman Joseph Heere proposed a different correspondence of popes to the aphorisms of the 1595 publication by removing are three of the seven antipopes on the list, Alexander the fifth John the 23rd and Felix the 5th.
00:39:16
Speaker
Although then that raises the question, why are you selecting only three of the seven antipops? Yes, so people are still trying to massage it then, still trying to make it fit.
00:39:27
Speaker
Which I suppose there's a few people around who are still trying to make Nostradamus fit as well. and Well, precisely. Yeah. But there's probably a better explanation for this list in that this list was propaganda for one particular cardinal to be Pope next.
00:39:47
Speaker
Oh, I see. So he but is the idea is he commissioned this person to come up with a legitimate look of um of of real prophecies that have come true. And wouldn't you know it, the next one prophecies on the list happens to be a guy who looks just like me.
00:40:05
Speaker
What a coincidence. So this doesn't actually require the person in question to have commissioned the list. It just requires that there were people who thought this person should be Pope next and thought that maybe something that looks a little bit like a prophecy might swing a papal election towards the designated candidate.
00:40:27
Speaker
So the first pope mentioned after 1590, the pope who would be Pope next, from the perspective of Wion, is described as ex antiquitae verbis, aka of the antiquity of the city or from the old city, which would suggest that one Cardinal Girolamo, Girolamo, Giororamo,
00:40:57
Speaker
chirolamo choorramo Simoncelli, who was from Orvita, which in Latin is Urb Vitas, or the old city, would be the perfect candidate to match the aphorism.
00:41:13
Speaker
And so this is a reason to think that maybe the prophecies were written to make it seem like Simoncelli was predestined to become Pope, and all of the names afterwards were are just meant to make the list look more legitimate. Because a ah prophecy that gets published in 1595 that only mentions one more pope is going to look a little bit suspicious.
00:41:38
Speaker
But if you didn like then extend time out and have a few more popes and then go, well, we need to kind of end this list. Why? I guess we just suggest the the person who is hundreds of years away from us will be the Pope of the end time, then that's a very good way to disguise your propaganda as something which looks like a legitimate prophecy.
00:42:03
Speaker
Yes, and we all know it's not a legitimate prophecy unless it predicts the end times. yeah Yeah, I see that now. It would be like having something that sort of had had a whole list of American presidents and then says the next president is going to be someone whose name rhymes with Ronald Bump.
00:42:19
Speaker
Precisely. Yeah. yeah Now, of course, it turns out that Simoncelli did not become Pope. So the person who would perfectly fit the aphorism did not become Pope.
00:42:32
Speaker
Instead, Cardinal Nicolino Sfondrati became Pope Gregory XIV. And so people have tried to twist the aphorism to fit from us from dr to ah to fit that of Pope Gregory XIV. I'm not going to try and, once again, massacre the Italian last name. I don't even know how to pronounce that one. yes Well, the other thing is we've got the it's that it's that F which appears in Latin text, which actually isn't an F proper in modern pronunciation, which actually might be a double S. So it might be Sondrati.
00:43:10
Speaker
So the explanation for Gregory the fourteenth is that his father was a senator in Milan, and senator comes from the word senix, which is Latin for old man, or maybe because Milan is an old city, then that would explain why he comes from the old city. Either his his old man is an old man,
00:43:36
Speaker
or as old man is from an old city, and that would allow it to come from the antiquity of the city or from the old city instead. And this also might explain Celestine II.
00:43:50
Speaker
So maybe we on actually quite deliberately started with a person who would have been pope, who was excised due to factional violence by going, well, look, this the person who should have been pope was opposed by factualism.
00:44:10
Speaker
The person who should be pope next might be opposed by factions, but is predestined by God to be pope. So you know who you've got to elect in an upcoming conclave.
00:44:22
Speaker
It's Simenjali. Hmm. Clever. If they'd been little bit clever, they would have they would have they would have covered their bases and and found out something, come up with something that was ambiguous enough that it could be interpreted perfectly as either of either of the possible candidates, then either way they can say that. Except, of course, they don't want it to be so open to interpretation that anyone... They really want it to be open to interpretation to one man and only one man.
00:44:51
Speaker
So, yes, it seems that a very good explanation of the prophecy of the popes. was that it was written as propaganda for one particular candidate, and it didn't work.
00:45:04
Speaker
And yet, people, and say people, some people continue to believe it and continue to try to work out how to make the prophecy of the popes fit post-Simon Shelley and particularly fit post-Petrus Romanus.
00:45:23
Speaker
Right. It just put me in mind of that. Did you ever see the crossword um that that came out the day before Clinton was elected? And one of the clues across the middle is tomorrow's headline.
00:45:38
Speaker
And they had very cleverly arranged all of the clues that intersected with that one to be ambiguous. They could be one of two things. And depending on which one you choose, the the clue, which was tomorrow's headline, could either be Clinton elected or Bob Dole elected. Oh, no, I have not seen that.
00:45:56
Speaker
It's like, hang on, I've got it here. Yeah. which was the 5th of November 1996. It doesn't say what the newspaper was. um But it has, they did all sorts of stuff like the the first, the the clue that intersected with the first letter was black Halloween animal, which could either be cat, therefore it would start C for Clinton, or bat, therefore it would be B for Bob Dole. And it was ridiculously clever and frankly better than these prophecies of yours.
00:46:23
Speaker
Not mine, Albert Wion's. i not and not Not even Albert Wion's, Arnold Wion's. Albert Wion's prophecies are just not known at all. No. Although apparently they were very accurate.
00:46:35
Speaker
Oh, well, maybe we should look into them next. so So that's it it then. We've got a bunch of interesting prophecies that may have just been ah a bit of bit of good press for a hopeful popeful.
00:46:49
Speaker
And people have stuck with
Episode Wrap-Up and Teaser for Bonus Content
00:46:50
Speaker
them 500 450 years. of course... and of course If the theory that the prophecies were simply written as propaganda for Simoncelli is true, then that may well be an example of an actual conspiracy.
00:47:07
Speaker
Because presumably, Wion wasn't simply going one day, oh, I think Simoncelli should be the next pope. I'm going to i'm goingnna spend a lot of time making up cryptic Latin phrases to fit with a whole bunch of popes' pre the next conclave and then spend quite a bit of time making up cryptic latin phrases to fit in with people who might be pope after simon shelley presumably it was a bunch of people getting together going look The person needs to lead the Roman Catholic Church in the future is Simon Shelley. He's the man for the moment. But the worry is some of those cardinals might go in a slightly different direction. So we need to nudge them along with what appears to be a bit of divine guidance or providence. So let's get together, produce a list, and try and manipulate the vote. And if that's true, that was an example of a conspiracy to install their man as head of the Roman Catholic Church.
00:48:09
Speaker
Very much so, which means we are 100% justified in having talked about it for an entire episode. Even though, because it took so long for us to review Tunnel Vision, it's kind of not but it's not a particularly timely episode. we'd done this just after Leo's election, that would have been really, really timely. But one thing people say about the podcast is Guide the Conspiracy.
00:48:33
Speaker
We're not a timely podcast. No, no, nor nor should we be, I think. that's ah that that's In fact, that's why we we should say we had planned to record this a couple of days earlier and I actually forgot because I was busy doing a bunch of things, was not checking my emails to get the reminder we had to reschedule it. That's my commitment to not being on time. I i apologize for nothing.
00:48:59
Speaker
So, i think we're done. I think we're done talking about this for now. Hopefully, how much i mean I mean, we've got we've got some Roman Catholic-y stuff in the patron bonus episode. No, we do, actually. We're going to go and record a bonus episode. And but we we didn't first mention we should talk about the prophecy of the popes, and I had no idea what they were talking about.
00:49:18
Speaker
I thought it was that like the Fatima prophecy, which I know we've mentioned in the past. yeah And so, but then i thought, well, maybe let's let's talk about the Fatima prophecies, because those are possibly ones that people have heard of bit more.
00:49:29
Speaker
um Three famous prophecies given to a bunch of Portuguese shepherds in 1917 do with popes and the church and all stuff like that.
00:49:40
Speaker
So that's what we're going to do in our bonus episode, to talk about the Fatima prophecies. but it it a it's it so It's a prophecy bonanza or prophecy ponanza.
00:49:56
Speaker
yes it's ah It's a combination of two words to make a new word is exactly what it is. yeah and that and And it's comedy gold whenever it's done. Every time. So if you'd like to hear that and you're a patron, good news. Just go check Patreon and it'll pop up wherever you wherever you get your Patreons. And if you're if you're not a patron, then you can also go to Patreon and search for The Podcaster's Guide to the Conspiracy and sign yourself up. It's as simple as that.
00:50:20
Speaker
And I think we're done. I think we are done. We are all done. That's enough popes for now. So until next week, conspiracy. See you later. and I am going to go and investigate the sneaky man.
00:50:33
Speaker
Good. Still feeling good about the catchphrase, I have to say. Hasn't worn off yet. Not yet, but when wears off. When wears off, it's going to be horrible. It's going to be horrible. Goodbye. goodbye
00:50:51
Speaker
The podcaster's guide to the conspiracy features Josh Addison and Associate Professor M.R. Extentis. Our producers are a mysterious cabal of conspirators known as Tom, Philip, and another who was so mysterious that they remain anonymous.
00:51:05
Speaker
You can contact us electronically via podcastconspiracy at gmail.com or join our Patreon and get access to our Discord server. Or don't, I'm not your mum.
00:51:31
Speaker
And remember, groove is in the heart.