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Episode 447 - The Return of "What the Conspiracy!" (The Berners Street Hoax)
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M tells Josh about the Berners Street Hoax of 1810 in this, the return of "What the Conspiracy!"
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Transcript
Introduction and Facial Micro-Expressions
00:00:00
Speaker
Don't bother looking at your notes, I know what topic you're discussing this week and the much awaited return of what the conspiracy... You do? Yes, you see, I only ended the series so I could study body language, specifically minuscule muscular movements of the face. Just by looking at your terrible visage I can read your innermost thoughts and so I can say with certainty that... Hold on, I just need to think about what your eye roll just then meant. I can say with certainty what the when, the where, and the what of the conspiracy today is. Okay!
00:00:27
Speaker
Hit me. Right, the when, the Aztec Empire, the where, Bulin, or at least from earlier in the 10th century, the what, ah but badges, bagels, ballista, something like that. Well Josh, you got me. I was going to talk about the suppressed history of the Aztec invasion of Bulin, wherein the Azteca hit their ballistas in bagel eating badges who wear badges. I guess we just play the theme music and make this our shortest ever episode. Hooray! Or I could test your wits with this other, what the conspiracy. I guess. I don't think you can hide anything from me. I can read your face. Indeed you can, but this isn't my face at all.
00:01:15
Speaker
And I would have got away with it if it weren't for you kids and your dog. Good God, you are Richard Hofstadter all along. Shabbadabbadoo! And that's the Funstines. It's close enough. Play the theme.
Hosts' Introduction and Locations
00:01:30
Speaker
The podcast's Guide to the Conspiracy featuring Josh Edison and Em Dinteth.
00:01:44
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to the Podcaster's Guide to the Conspiracy. In Auckland, New Zealand, I am Josh Edison, and in Zhuhai, China, trapped in time, surrounded by evil, low on gas, it's Associate Professor M.R.X.Tenter. Ah, but you see, it doesn't matter that I'm low on gas, because I...
00:02:01
Speaker
don't drive. Well, fine. That's that reference naked then. So, what's been going on? It's nearly summertime in Auckland, which is why it's still light as we record, which was why you can possibly hear bird noises in the background, which I think is quite pleasing. But if you don't, too bad, they're there. Yeah, they're very hard to edit out. Very, very hard to edit out. But actually, it's easier to edit them in. me Just drown you out with lots and lots of bird noise.
00:02:28
Speaker
um Because that's what I want to end.
00:02:35
Speaker
i tried to shift our date of recording last time but could not because you were just so godamn busy what have you been up to with your conferences and you meetings and stuff.
Conference on Natural Cognition
00:02:46
Speaker
Well, last weekend I went to the fourth international conference on natural cognition, as run by the University of Macau, where I gave a talk on the genealogy of conspiracy theories and how deception plays a role in the generation of both conspiracy theories and belief in conspiracy theories.
00:03:11
Speaker
I had to quote a Londoner from say the 19th century, a gay old time, and I've returned laden with ideas. I guess that kind of works. So yeah, it's been a good time. Going to Macau is quite a fascinating experience because the University of Macau is really only a 45-minute taxi ride from my campus.
00:03:36
Speaker
It just happens to be in another country. So i I can't just get a cab and go to a conference. I need to cross a border. I need to change money. It's a whole palaver for something which is so close to my bed and yet in some respects, so far away.
Macau's Administrative Status
00:03:53
Speaker
yeah Yes, something something we don't really think about in New Zealand because every every other country is a million miles away. But yes, when you have when you're actually next to an actual border, things do get interesting.
00:04:06
Speaker
I mean, it gets all the more complicated by the fact that Macau is actually a special administrative region of China. So it is technically China, but at the same time, it has a border and that border must be crossed by both foreigners and Chinese nationals. So it is the same country, but it's a different country and it has its own currency, which I find very, very annoying.
00:04:32
Speaker
a So, anything else you've been up to?
Return of 'What the Conspiracy' Segment
00:04:35
Speaker
Teaching? Well, I wouldn't recommend that. Stay away from me as much as you can. Well, I don't have to do much of it, but I do have to do it. Ah well. Well, in that case then, maybe we should record an episode of the Podcaster's Guide to the Conspiracy. A flashback to an earlier time. The the triumphant return of a, I assume, fan favourite segment. I've never really never' really asked.
00:04:57
Speaker
Well, I mean, at least one person really liked them, which is why they're back due to Philip's demand. That's the wrong way way to phrase it. By the great demand of one person, what the conspiracy is back. Now, we actually plan to bring this back a lot earlier, but now we're on a fortnightly schedule. Things just keep getting in the way. e a But not this time.
00:05:20
Speaker
So, it's my favourite sting as well. Play the sting. I will. I mean, and it's your favourite sting. You only get to listen to it when you hear the recorded episode after it's been edited. I mean, you can pretend to enjoy the sting now. I will. I am enjoying it in my mind right now. iemp but i mean To reveal how the sausage is made, we just record it straight and put the stings in afterwards. So Josh is now going to pretend to hear a sting and thoroughly enjoy it, no matter what I put in after I... I'm about to say, after I shea... I've suddenly gone very Sean Connery here, after I
00:06:12
Speaker
Yep, that was an excellent quality sting. ae I have no doubt. Wow. Doubt you'll have a plenty because now you get to play what the cons conspiracy. So Josh, you know how this work. I do. How this work? You know how this work. It worked like this i need to put this. I need to pluralize some of my words. That's how it work. You know how this works. I need a when the conspiracy. I need a where the conspiracy and I need a what the conspiracy. So Josh,
00:06:44
Speaker
When do you think this conspiracy occurred?
Burners Street Hoax: The Prank
00:06:48
Speaker
um I have a feeling it's a recent one. I'm going to say the 1950s. Interesting. And where do you think this conspiracy occurred?
00:07:00
Speaker
um i I think you're gonna go back to um European history, which you which we both know you know more about than I do, to to to shove your specialist knowledge of it in my face.
00:07:16
Speaker
So, said okay. so go I mean, Europe in general. so So you're going for the entire continent of Europe? Shall we say central, central Europe then? Central Europe, okay. So we're we go we're kind of around Warsaw then, in your reckoning. Yeah. Okay. And what kind of conspiracy do you think it is? Well, I remember when we used to do this segment, I was always convinced that one day it would be some sort of dairy-based conspiracy and it never was.
00:07:45
Speaker
which means that obviously it's due to be one now. So I'm gonna go with um ah something something to do with Gruyere cheese specifically. Well, that's three for three as in you missed all three. And I even gave you a clue at the beginning of the episode with my gay old time reference because we are in 1810, it's the Georgian age and we're in London, England.
00:08:14
Speaker
And the conspiracy itself is an elaborate plot to deliver a large number of unrequested goods and surfaces, an event at the time described as a piece of despicable waggery. But not particularly gay? Well, I mean, it was gay in the sense that it was used in 1810, not gay in the sense was used at the end of the 20th and 21st century. I mean, there's actually not much sex which is going to come into the story,
00:08:44
Speaker
at all. This is the story of Burners Street in London. Have you heard of the Burners Street event of the early 19th century? I have not. Okay then let me take you back. It's 1810 and it's the morning of Monday the 26th of November. We are at the home of Mrs Tottenham of 54 Burners Street, London and she is about to have a bit of a day. Now, Berners Street is off Oxford Street, so it's in the centre of London, and Mrs Tottenham, whose first name has not been recorded by history, so we only know her as Mrs Tottenham,
00:09:30
Speaker
is a widow and also a woman of fortune. So basically when her husband died, she inherited a large amount of money or possibly she already had a lot of money before her husband died. Once again, her his history is actually not particularly well known in the store in the story. But Burner Street is a place that you want to be if you are someone with social standing.
00:09:56
Speaker
So Berners Street is a place where bishops, counts, earls, lords and ladies live and Mrs Tottenham lives in a large and handsome house according to contemporary descriptions at the time. Now On the morning of the 26th of November, hold who huh her doorbell is going to go off quite a bit so and it's not likely that she would have answered the door herself because as a woman of status she would have had a maid dealing with deliveries.
00:10:33
Speaker
So the first person to ring ring her door is a chimney sweep. Now this is not necessarily unexpected, you live in a large house, you have a lot of chamnes, you probably need them swept out from time to time. But this chimney sweep claims that they have been summoned to the house and even has a note to that effect, despite the fact that there is no record of the lady of the house requesting services at this time.
00:11:00
Speaker
So the chimney sweep is turned away, much to his own disgust, for he has a card saying his services are needed. And you'd think in initially, people wouldn't think much of it, except that several more chimney sweeps appear in very quick succession that that morning. And according to London annual register for that year,
00:11:27
Speaker
Wagons laden with coals from the Paddington Wharfs, upholsterers' goods and cartloads, organs, pianofortes, linen, jewellery, and every other description of furniture started to be delivered to the house, all of which had tradespeople with notes requesting their services, with no record of their services being requested, either by Mrs. Tottenham or any of the staff in the house. Indeed they had notes such as Mrs Tottenham requests Mr insert name, we'll call upon her at two tomorrow as she wishes to consult him about the sale of an estate 54 Burness Street Monday, or Mrs Tottenham requested a post-chase and four may be at her house at two tomorrow to convey her to a first stage towards Bath,
00:12:18
Speaker
54's Burner Street Monday, or Mrs Tottenham begs the honourable Mr to Insert Name, we'll be good enough to give her a call at two tomorrow, as Mrs Tottenham is desirous to speaking of him of business of important 54 Burner Street Monday. All of these people have cards requesting their surfaces, and yet none of them have actually been asked to attend the house.
00:12:45
Speaker
And of course, because they haven't been asked to attend the house, they are all turned away. And because all of these people have evidence their services have been requested, and they see other people who have evidence of their services being requested outside the house, this means that a very loud and very large mob start congregating outside of the house, growing in size as every minute passes.
00:13:12
Speaker
I mean, this sounds like a ah particularly posh version of the ordering a bunch of pizzas to someone's house practical joke. Is it' is is she being punked? She is, in the parlance of the
Escalation of the Hoax
00:13:25
Speaker
time, being a bit punked with a good old JP hoax. Goodness. So how how how big did this get? Let's just say that by the end of the day, the police have to actually close both ends of the street. Dang.
00:13:38
Speaker
Yeah so multiple trades p people often arrive with the same good which then leads to after them being turned away disagreement in the street as to who should be delivering the six pianos that have been subbed for. At one point several undertakers turn up with made to measure coffins because they believe that Mrs Tottenham had died the night before and their services are requested. Obstetricians also turn up because they are told their services are needed by Mrs Tottenham at the time. Lawyers had drafted documents that they believe Mrs Tottenham had asked them to draft for her signature on that particular day.
00:14:24
Speaker
the Lord Mayor of London arrives at one point because he has received a note saying that Mrs Tottenham had been summoned to appear before him but because she was sick could he be prevailed upon to call upon her and this yet again is another example of a fake request. Right, so it sounds like someone or someones have gone to an awful lot of trouble And I'm assuming for some of these things, some of them maybe you could you could get in touch the day before and say, hey, show up tomorrow. But I see some of them would have had to have been put into motion.
00:15:01
Speaker
some amount of time beforehand, so it's getting sounding more and more and more elaborate. Yes, I mean, this is a not just a pre-internet age, this is a pre-easy access to print age. All of these notes have to be handwritten. And given the scale of the number of people who have been summoned with these notes,
00:15:23
Speaker
You have to think that someone or some set of people have spent a considerable amount of time arranging for a set of tradespeople and dignitaries to arrive at a house on a particular day. As you say, organizing these things in many cases days in advance. A lawyer is not going to draft a document of a morning and turn up in an afternoon. A lawyer is going to need time to prepare that document and have it either typeset or written out formally. So yes, there's a lot of effort going into at this stage, one woman being very bewildered by the large number of people turning up at her house. And I mentioned the Lord Mayor of London turns up.
00:16:12
Speaker
The Duke of Gloucester also turns up, having been summoned to to the house. So we have tooth drawers, as dentists used to be null and miniature painters, not painters who are very small, but painters of miniatures, artists, auctioneers,
00:16:31
Speaker
Grocers, morning couches, obstetricians as I mentioned, poultry sellers, and of course multiple undertakers with made to measure coffins.
00:16:42
Speaker
Right, so and did did this go on all day? Did they all show up at once or was it just sort of this pre procession that went on and on and on? It is a procession which leads to a growing crowd of disgruntled merchant and tradespeople and dignitaries stuck outside. When the Lord Mayor arrives, he arrives about midday, he arrives in a carriage and then basically can't leave because the crowd is so big that he's got to the house but then trying to leave the house has become impossible due to the swelling number of people surrounding the front door and this isn't just at this stage trades people and merchants we are also dealing with a sizable crowd of onlookers who think this is possibly the funniest thing they've ever seen because as the news spreads through London
00:17:33
Speaker
more and more onlookers are gravitating towards Burners Street to find out what is going to happen next. In fact, according to some contemporary accounts, it basically brings trade in London to a halt because not only are numerous merchants now stuck outside Burners Street, but their usual customers have now gone to Burners Street to find out what's going on.
00:17:59
Speaker
Right, so i can imagine I can imagine a tradesman turning up to a fancy house and being turned away, but you don't tell the Lord Mayor of London to bugger off, do you? that he Surely he was at least let in and hit a and got to talk with the lady? Or was everybody just just left milling outside? History is a little bit silent as to exactly what happened as a conversation between the Lord Mayor and Mrs Tottenham, or the Duke of Gloucester and Mrs Tottenham. We know they were summoned, we know in the Lord Mayor's case he was summoned with a card saying, I've been summoned to appear in front of you, but I cannot, so can you please come to me?
00:18:39
Speaker
ah You have to assume by this particular point in time, Mrs Tottenham has left the house to try to deal with some of these situations. Some of the reports do mention that she is outside by the end of the day, arguing with various people saying, no, I didn't summon you. No, that is not my handwriting. No, I did not send that card.
00:18:59
Speaker
So one must assume that the Lord Mayor and Mrs. Tottenham had a conversation at some point. But yes, you're right. There would be something very, very odd about being summoned to someone's house when you are a dignitary of the governance of London, london only to then find out that your services aren't needed and indeed were never needed.
00:19:24
Speaker
Now, by the end of the day, the crowd is massively large and there is a threat of violence to basically spring out of an anglek angry mob of tradespeople and merchants who really do believe they've been basically stymied or hoaxed by Mrs. Tottenham. So the police turn up, they block both ends of the street to prevent more merchants and more members of the public.
00:19:51
Speaker
from entering Berners Strait and by the time dusk falls, you know admittedly this is London in 1810 and it's winter time so dusk is falling somewhere between I think 3pm and 4pm so people say it's at night but most of the other accounts say by the time night falls The crowd starts to dissipate and Mrs Toddingham finally gets to go back inside, none the wiser as to what has been going on to her, other than the fact that someone has made her the centre of attention and no one's really sure why.
Motivations and Speculations
00:20:31
Speaker
So Josh, a question.
00:20:33
Speaker
Why do you think this was done? I mean, it' it it sounds like a prank. I feel like it's a prank because it sounds like a much more extreme version of the pranks that happened today. I mean, you could you could imagine a scenario where where it was an actually an act of of of sabotage of some kind. Someone had figured out a way to shut down commerce in a large chunk of London for a day.
00:20:59
Speaker
I don't know to what end you'd do that, um so I'm still gonna go with it, it was all just somebody's merry shape. An interesting hypothesis, and there might be something to that. This may be a weirdly unmotivated hoax. So let me tell you about the suspect, bit because no one has ever admitted formally to being behind the Berners Street hoax.
00:21:24
Speaker
But we have a very good idea of who we think was responsible. And this person is one Theodore Hawk. He would have been 22 years of age in 1810 and even at this stage in his life he is known both as a playboy and a practical joker.
00:21:44
Speaker
As a practical joker, he is known for going to parties he wasn't invited to, eventually being found out but being so droll and so wussy that the people whose party he had crashed ended up not being so concerned that he was staying on.
00:22:03
Speaker
Now he never admits to being behind the hoax, but several decades later, sorry I should point out, he never admits to being behind the hoax, but he is fingered in 1812 as being the most likely suspect, in part because he is the most famous practical joker in London in the Georgian age at that time.
00:22:27
Speaker
So Theodore Hook is one of those people who was very famous in the 1810s and is now a virtually unknown historical figure in the same way that Mrs. Tottenham was a person of stature and social standing in the 1810s and history doesn't even remember her first name. But decades after the event,
00:22:52
Speaker
Theodore Hook writes a play. And in this play, he invents a character by the name of Dre, and he gives Dre the following speech. There's nothing like fun. What else made the effect in Burner Street? I am the man. I did it. Sent a lord, mayor, and state to release in-press semen, philosophers and sages to look at children with two heads apiece, pianofortes by the dozens, and coal wagons by scores.
00:23:21
Speaker
2,500 raspberry tarts from half a hundred pastry cooks, a squad of surgeons, a battalion of physicians, and a legion of apocrisees, lovers to see sweethearts, ladies to find lovers, upholsterers to furnish houses and architects to build them, gigs, dog carts and glass coaches, enough to convey half the freeholders of Middlesex to Brentford.
00:23:45
Speaker
Nay, I dispatched even royalty itself on an errand to a respectable widow lady whose concourse of visitors by my special invitation choked up the great avenues of London and found employment for half of the police of the metropolis.
00:24:01
Speaker
Right, so I suppose so either he's he's just using current or using past events as an inspiration for his character or he's slyly confessing to the crime. Is that what people think?
00:24:16
Speaker
Yes, and what's complicating about this particular state of affairs is that the Burner Street Hoax becomes so famous in London in the 1810s that it's actually often a punchline in a comic routine. So there are numerous plays that appear in the first few years after the Burner Street Hoax where people make jokes about Burner Street.
00:24:40
Speaker
So it's one of those things where he might just be following on from what other playwrights and authors have done. I mean, there's even seems to be a reference to Berners Street in the work of Charles Dickens, who's writing well after the events that have been described. However, most of the people who know the work of Theodore Hooke particularly his biographer, R. H. Dalton Barnum, claimed that according to what letters and correspondence they have, it seems clearly evident that this was a hoax that was undertaken by Theodore Hooke. Can you guess as to why he did it?
00:25:25
Speaker
um I suppose it may be. Did he have any sort of relation to Mrs Tottingham? They had never met, and they would never meet. Right. um Well, but because he's a rich asshole um in the 1800s, I'm guessing he did it on it for a bit.
00:25:44
Speaker
on a wager good guess yes as far as we know from what little sources we have Theodore Hook made a bet with an architect by the name of Samuel Beasley and the bet was that he could make a modest dwelling in London famous within a week and the bet was for one guinea now Josh do you know how much a guinea is worth in today's money Ah, it's it's worth one pig, I believe. Hence the name. Ah, but what is one pig worth in today's money? A guinea, weren't you listening? Interesting and very circular. I would like that either in pounds, euros or New Zealand dollars. um I think 47 million New Zealand dollars.
00:26:31
Speaker
220 pounds so this is a very very very very small bet because even we take inflation into account it is still 220 pounds it's a very very minor bet which if this is true it's a lot of effort to make one guinea's worth of return from a bet yep and that's why rich people should be abolished Now this is a curious case as to whether this is a conspiracy because on the one hand we have a bet between two people leading to
00:27:08
Speaker
a hoax, which admittedly required a lot of effort, but you might go, well, the bet itself is not a conspiracy, making a bet with someone and then Theodore Hook sitting down and drafting a large nut number of notes would not itself be a conspiratorial activity, but because it is one person working on their own.
00:27:29
Speaker
Now, admittedly, that one person working on their own needs to use a very large number of patsies, which are the tradespeople who are unaware that they have a role in this particular ploat. Ploat? Ploat. Really not having much success with language at the moment.
00:27:46
Speaker
lot However, there is suspicion that Hook did not work on his own.
Historical Obscurity of the Hoax
00:27:55
Speaker
And that's in part because rough calculations for the number of notes that had to be drafted to summon the trains people.
00:28:04
Speaker
really not working well with the English language today, tradespeople and merchants is somewhere between 1000 to 4000 handwritten notes that then need to be delivered to the various tradespeople and merchants in a way to make sure they're all acting on the same day. And so according to Hooke's Biographer, but once again, R. H. Dalton Barnum, Hooke had two accomplices. One is only known as Mr. H, which is kind of fits in with the Georgian tradition of when you're writing your own diaries or letters, you just refer to people by the first initial of their last name. And
00:28:51
Speaker
an unnamed celebrated actress who apparently spent time with Hook in the one or two weeks before the event occurred so I should point out the bet says that Hook bet with Beasley they could make a modest dwelling in London famous within a week Barnum claims that Hook's accomplices worked with him for at least two weeks, so one of these stories is inaccurate, and that after they delivered the letters, they set up camp across the road from 54 Berners Street to watch the fun. you Well, I mean,
00:29:34
Speaker
i think i want to say good for them but I also want to say what what what a bunch of dicks making a whole bunch of people's lives difficult ah for their own amusement but um it did appear to be for the amusement of a whole lot of other people as well in the end so I don't know maybe it'll get balances out but but but there may have been another motivation mm-hmm do tell according to Bahanim, this wasn't just a bit of fun. So as Bahanim writes, Hooke, being completely familiar with London gossip and by no means scrupulous in the use of any information he might possess, Hooke addressed a variety of persons of consideration, taking care to introduce illusion to some peculiar point sure of attracting attention and invariably closing with an invitation to number four, Berners Strait.
00:30:28
Speaker
Certain revelations to be made respecting a complicated system of fraud pursued at the Bank of England brought the Governor of that establish of that establishment, a similar device was employed to allure the Chairman of the East India Company, while the Duke of Gloucester started off his inquiry to receive a communication from a dying woman, formerly a confidential attendant to his Royal Highness's mother.
00:30:54
Speaker
So the claim here is that Hook was engaging also in satire by pointing out that he knew certain information about how the dignitaries of the land, who appeared to be good and virtuous figures, were in fact not.
00:31:13
Speaker
and was basically impressing upon them the need to visit a modest house in London on the basis that there was information vital to be kept secret they would need to address upon arriving at 54 Burners Strait. So it may not have just been fun and japery, there may have been some political motivation behind this hoax after all.
00:31:40
Speaker
I have to say I'm a little bit disappointed. I thought you were going to say that it was all ah it was all a heist and that while he had all of London looking at Berners Street, him and his mates were off stealing the crown jewels or something. That would make sense. You're thinking of the taking of Palhyrm 123. Yes, that's probably what I'm thinking of.
00:31:59
Speaker
Did that get remade? Was there only one version of that? i Actually, no, I'm thinking of The Assault on Precinct 13, which got remade. yeah For some reason, I've always confused The Assault on Precinct 13 and the previous film, whose name has completely escaped me, Pelham 123 as being the the same film, even though different directors in radically different plots. yeah So, is there more?
00:32:25
Speaker
or is that? is No, so once again, Hook never took responsibility for the event, even though his biographer writing about it after Hook's death, because as I point out, Hook was famous in his day, even though he has not remained a famous figure subsequently, had books written about his playboyness and his practical japere,
00:32:48
Speaker
Barnum is quite convinced that Hook really was responsible given what access to correspondence he had at the time, and certainly two years after the event he was being fingered as the most likely suspect. But we will never really know why this event occurred.
00:33:05
Speaker
And we'll never really know as to whether Barnum's supposition that hook was also engaging in a little bit of political intrigue at the same time is actually true. But what we can say is given the scale of what went went on, it probably was a conspiracy of some kind because to en enact a hoax of the size required multiple people to be involved in it.
00:33:33
Speaker
And so that is the story of the Burner Street hoax. Definitely a conspiracy if you believe he had help. Not a conspiracy if you believe he didn't have help, but if he didn't have help, my god, that's a lot of effort to hoax one woman whose first name has been forgotten to history.
00:33:51
Speaker
And I guess it does illustrate the point about about the the structure of conspiracies. Here's something that a massive number of people were involved in, and yet only a small group or maybe even one person was actually actually knew the true purpose behind it all.
00:34:08
Speaker
So that seems like a good answer. Yeah, structurally it is a very interesting case of either a secret plot on a grand scale or collusion with a few people involving thousands, it sounds, of tradespeople and merchants in London in 1810. All to cause bother to one woman that the chief conspirator or sole plotter never even met. He just walked past a house one day with Sam or BC and we're like, look, I can make that house famous within a week. Yeah, once again, rich people, they must be stopped. Well, i'm great I'm great believer in bringing out the guillotine. So is that all there is to say? Yes, basically, that is all there is to say about the Burner Street hoax. A lot of it has been lost to history. A lot of it was speculation at the time. It is one of those events that was incredibly famous in the UK
00:35:07
Speaker
back in the Georgian era and yet basically has also disappeared from history. Very
00:35:25
Speaker
Well, that may be the end of our what the conspiracy segment. We should probably talk, that that this is this is less topical now that we um put this episode back a week, but we really can't go without mentioning the fact that the onion appears to be buying Infowars. Just turning to local news now.
00:35:45
Speaker
last night so so sort of In the time between our last proper episode and this one, it's something first it was first of it everywhere. it was the the onions' buying you know and All of Alex Jones' stuff is up for sale. The onions buying info was, they even got the the the Sandy Hook people to, what was it? Ask for less money.
00:36:07
Speaker
So that we you soingly that the onion could pay this for. yeah the debt So yeah, the debt that Alex Jones owed them would essentially be used to help purchase infowars on the basis that they would then get a share of the profits on the continuation of infowars under the ownership of the consortium led by the
00:36:32
Speaker
led by the onion. So essentially you have debts to us. We will forgive those on the notion of we will then use that forgiven debt to purchase your business. Yes. And then so the last I heard, which was a week ago now, I think, was the Infowars people were objecting because they'd done that or something. And the the last I heard some sort of independent adjudicator had basically said, no, this is nonsense. you you You're just annoyed that you lost the auction.
00:37:02
Speaker
but I haven't actually heard if it's progressed any further. Okay, so what happened was the day that the Onion bought Infowars, which was using a sealed bid process in Texas, and there were basically two bidders, a consortium which was led by one of Alex Jones's employees, not Alex Jones himself,
00:37:28
Speaker
and a consortium of rich people associated with this employee had put in a bid as had Ben Collins with the onion. Apparently the onion bid was the lower of the two bids.
00:37:45
Speaker
But due to the sealed bidding nature of the auction, the person, the trustee who's in charge of administering the auction is not technically obliged to take the largest bid. They're obliged to take what they feel is the best bid with respect to financing and the like. And so the trustee went, well, technically the other big, other bid is bigger But the bid by the onion is more secure because it has the forgiving of certain debts. It ends up being a better bid from a process point than the large sums of money from the other side. So the onion were awarded the bid according to the rules of the bidding process. Alex Jones finds out the onion has bought infowars.
00:38:37
Speaker
As he finds us out on air, he makes a phone call to Steve Bannon who starts saying something and Alex Jones shuts it down very quickly. There was a suspicion that Steve Bannon was about to reveal that he either knew of the rival bid or was involved in the rival bid.
00:38:59
Speaker
So Alex Jones says, look, you're on air. Please stop. Can we talk to you properly over Zoom in just a few minutes time? Whatever the case, Alex Jones goes, well, I i believe there was another bid and it was better. Alex Jones shouldn't know anything about the other bid because he's not meant to be involved in bidding for Infowars. But he starts talking about the fact that the other bidders, despite the fact he's only just heard about the onion buying Infowars,
00:39:28
Speaker
are going to appeal this and indeed it has gone back to the judge and the judge has said, look, I'm not saying that the onion isn't buying info wars, but given that the other bid was bigger, the trustee does need to explain their reasoning as to why they went with the the onion bid as opposed to this bid which is related to an employee of Alex Jones.
00:39:55
Speaker
And we aren't going to know about the subject of that hearing for about another month. Which means the sale has been halted and Alex Jones is back in the Infowars studio. The Infowars websites are back up and running.
00:40:12
Speaker
In a month's time it might be the case that the onion really does buy infowars, or in a month's time the bid might be given to the other group, or in a month's time there might be a fresh bidding system run once again with a different trustee.
00:40:31
Speaker
So the judge has not said that the bidding system itself was illegitimate, simply that there are some legal questions and the other bidders did have the right to appeal it. So they now have to go through a legal process to work out whether the first bid stands, whether the second bid should actually stand, or whether there should be an entirely new ah new option entirely.
Contentious Sale of Infowars
00:40:54
Speaker
Oh well, another hurry up and wait one, I guess.
00:40:58
Speaker
um Yeah, I did I saw a statement from the onion that sort of said Words the effect that yeah, we were expecting though a dick around like this and it's probably gonna take us a little while longer But damn it, we'll get there. So yeah, I'll just have to wait and see and Elon Musk has not ah shoved his snuff his snout into the proceedings that one like thing One of the things that was being sold as part of the auction was the Alex Jones X handle. And Elon Musk and X have now got, oh, you can't do that. Those belong to us. So they're objecting on the basis that the trustees can't hand over handles to the other group. But in a way that people are saying actually might be legally dangerous for X,
00:41:53
Speaker
Because if they're insisting that accounts belong to them, there might be legal ramifications with respect to if the accounts belong to you, then what the accounts say and do means that you are legally liable for yeah for those actions online.
00:42:12
Speaker
So some people are saying maybe Musk would be better off not defending his friend Alex Jones here because what it might do to a social media network if they really do double down on your counts belong to us.
00:42:27
Speaker
Yes, yeah that does that that was the first thing i said when you I thought when you started talking about this year. so oh well It's not like it would be the first time that Elon Musk blunted into something and put his foot in it and made things worse for himself. so really could go either way. i do I can't wait to see what blundering and foot-putting into is going to do with the U.S. government next year. Yes, it'll be a delightful jape, I'm sure. Much yeah yeah like the one we showed.
Elon Musk's Legal Challenges with Infowars
00:43:00
Speaker
It's already threatening government officials in the US s on X right now with claims of treason. This next regime, if you've got a social media boss accusing government officials of working as foreign operatives,
00:43:20
Speaker
Not going to be great. Not going to be great at all. But there was a new story out today where when this claim was made on X yesterday about a government official working for the Kremlin, several experts on social media were contacted by I think the New York Times and they refused to comment on it because they're now scared of what Elon Musk might say about them and given he's going to be playing an integral role in the next administration, you really can't say anything critical about Elon Musk because he actually might be able to wield political power and bring your career to a halt. Well that's a cherry thought. But what is a cherry thought is that our patrons get a bonus episode, which we will record immediately after finishing this one. Well, unless of course our recording gets hijacked.
00:44:17
Speaker
Well, it's a subtle allusion to what we're going to be talking about, yes. But if you want to know more, you'll have to tune in. And to do that, you'll have to be a patron. And to do that, you have to go to Betrayon.com and look for the podcaster's guide to the conspiracy.
00:44:32
Speaker
and And if you sign yourself up then you get just just bonus episodes bonus episodes as far as the eye can see Including one that will come out immediately after this main episode, but we just say Immediately released proximate to around the same time. Yes. Yeah fair enough ah But for now, that's the end of this main episode. So I think we're done. I'm i'm just going to pop off and order 15,000 pianos to get sent to Em's apartment on the Zhuhai campus. um And then we'll then we'll go record some bonus content.
00:45:11
Speaker
But until then, goodbye toly pep you've been listening to podcast's guide to the conspiracy hosted by josh edison and indenter if you'd like to help support us please find details up drive at either patreon or podb ben if you'd like to get in contact with us email us at podcastconspi at gmail dot com
00:45:41
Speaker
goodbye.