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109. What Dancers and Parents Need to Know About College Dance Programs with Ashley Thorndike
175 Plays3 days ago
Ashley Thorndike is a licensed clinical professional counselor, longtime dance educator, and founder of Dance and College Counseling. With a PhD in Dance Studies, an MEd in Counselor Education, and a BFA in Modern Dance, she brings a rare combination of mental health expertise and firsthand academic experience to college and career planning for dancers.
Ashley and I are both products of college dance programs and have gone on to mentor dancers through this process, so I absolutely loved connecting over this topic! Our conversation is jam-packed with everything from the complex admissions process to building a broad, sustainable career in dance.
Key "Pointes" from this Episode:
- Ashley's winding path into dance and her academic journey through the University of Utah, the University of Virginia, and Ohio State University where she became the first person to earn a PhD in dance studies.
- The biggest mistakes dancers make when applying to college dance programs.
- How families can explore financial options when loans and personal resources do not cover the cost of a dance education.
- How to identify the right college fit as a dancer and what to look for during your search.
- The importance of moving beyond a one-lane mindset and exploring the many paths available within the dance world.
- Why college is a uniquely valuable time to explore interests beyond dance.
- How a long, meaningful dance career can take many different shapes, even beyond performing on stage.
- What dance faculty are looking for at auditions, based on Ashley's experience serving on an admissions committee.
- How to approach your interview as a dance applicant and what questions you should and should not be asking.
- Advice for parents who feel uncertain about their child pursuing dance as a college and career path.
Connect with Ashley:
Ashley’s College Planning Guide: https://www.danceandcollegecounseling.com/guide
Ashley’s Website: https://www.danceandcollegecounseling.com/
Follow Ashley on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danceandcollegecounseling/
Links and Resources:
SHOP MSeam Apparel: https://mseamapparel.com/ (use code BRAINY25 at checkout for 25% off all items)
SHOP ORZA: www.orzabrand.com ($20 off all Orza Pro® 2.0 ballet shoes June 22nd through the 28th with ORZA day deals - no code needed!)
Let’s connect!
MY WEBSITE: thebrainyballerina.com
INSTAGRAM: instagram.com/thebrainyballerina
Schedule your complimentary career consultation: https://www.thebrainyballerina.com/career-mentoring
Questions/comments? Email me at caitlin@thebrainyballerina.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Early Preparation Advice
00:00:00
Speaker
So what I tell dancers and their families is you have to start earlier, it takes longer, and programs are gonna surprise you.
00:00:16
Speaker
I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor. And this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry.
00:00:32
Speaker
I'm peeling back the curtain of the professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need to succeed in a dance career on your terms.
Guest Introduction: Ashley Thorndyke
00:00:50
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Kaitlyn Sloan, and I am joined today by Ashley Thorndyke. Ashley is a licensed clinical professional counselor, long-time dance educator, and founder of Dance and College Counseling, where she bridges academic planning, career development, and holistic support for dancers navigating the college admissions process.
00:01:12
Speaker
So today we are doing a deep dive on the world of college dance. Ashley and I both have college dance degrees, so we're super passionate about this topic. And we also work a lot with dancers to help them discover their next steps. This is going to really fun conversation. Before we get into the meat of it, Ashley, can you tell us a little bit about your background and the work that you do through dance in college counseling?
Ashley's Journey into Dance and Counseling
00:01:34
Speaker
Absolutely. And I'm so excited to be here. This is my very first podcast. So I'm glad to do it with you. i have a twisty, windy path. I actually started dancing when I was 15. So one of my high school friends wanted to take a ballet class and didn't want to go alone. So I said, sure.
00:01:53
Speaker
I'll go with you. And I fell in love. I remember the first time I learned Posse. And within six months, I was dancing six days a week. And I had just, I had found my thing. So I went to college for dance. I went to the University of Utah, where I was a modern dance major.
00:02:11
Speaker
After that, I moved to New York City. I was only there for a year. It wasn't for me. And then I decided that my undergrad experience hadn't been well-rounded enough. And I went and I did a master's degree at the University of Virginia in counseling.
00:02:27
Speaker
And there, my emphasis was on higher education. So I had courses in things like college admissions and college student development, And Charlottesville is a super artistic place. So while I was there, I met the woman who's now my business partner in college counseling. we We met in a yoga class. I looked at her feet. And at the end of class, I was like, are you a dancer? And we've been friends ever since.
00:02:52
Speaker
And we partnered with a musician, Peter Swenson, who I've collaborated with for over two decades now. And we were choreographing, dancing, teaching, doing all of the things while I was also doing ah social service work. It was really great.
00:03:09
Speaker
And then, i as you can tell, I love school. So i went for more. I went to The Ohio State University where I was the first person to do a PhD in dance studies.
00:03:22
Speaker
I had a really intensive experience, lots of things. physical practice, a lot of dancing, a lot of deep intellectual inquiry, and really amazing connections with faculty members, but mostly with my cohort of other graduate students. I'm still connected to that group of amazing dance professionals.
00:03:46
Speaker
After I finished my PhD, it was 2008, the financial crisis, college dance programs were all having hiring freezes. i did a lot of adjuncting, several years of adjuncting and being a visiting professor. And that was the moment where I was teaching Pilates to support myself. And the one thing I'll say about dancers, like, we're scrappy. We don't mind hard work. We will clean toilets to get free class. We will teach Pilates the year after we earned a PhD. So, and I loved it. I met amazing people. Like, teaching Pilates in Washington, D.C. is so fun. I still do it And then I just decided, okay, I'm not a university professor, which is what I thought was the plan.
00:04:31
Speaker
But I've had this idea forever, which was a nonprofit organization. i kind of thought it would be my research agenda when I was a professor, but instead it became a nonprofit that brought together professional dance artists, college dance majors, and middle schoolers.
00:04:47
Speaker
And for 10 years, we ran these amazing programs around the country. with this nested mentoring model focused on dance teaching, dance education, and leadership and career development.
00:04:59
Speaker
So through that, I got to know lots of different dance departments, students from lots of dance departments. And over those years, I also started informally mentoring and advising students on colleges and also helping colleges think about how they were structuring and restructuring their curriculum.
Navigating College Dance Program Applications
00:05:20
Speaker
And then around like i had turned 40, was time to close. The nonprofit had just, had done what it was meant to do. And i just wanted a shift. My family moved abroad for a few years. Peter and I had a piece at Millennium Stage at the Kennedy Center, which just felt like a really wonderful experience since I
00:05:46
Speaker
I just wanted to change. And so that was when I kind of cycled back to that master's degree in counseling that I had done, had to take a few more courses, take my board exam. That's when I became a licensed psychotherapist. And now I'm able to balance one part of my life is therapy and clinical work. And I also do a lot of lectures on mental health for dancers. The other piece of my life is therapy.
00:06:11
Speaker
Dance and College Counseling, where I help dancers and their families think about dance as a route to college, a route to a career, a connection point, kind of a way of knowing in the world. And i love it.
00:06:31
Speaker
I love what I do. Yes. So the college admissions process is very complex, especially for the dancers. Can you talk about what makes applying to college as a dancer so different from the traditional application?
00:06:46
Speaker
Absolutely. So what I tell dancers and their families is you have to start earlier. it takes longer.
00:06:56
Speaker
And programs are going to surprise you. The difference in the application process is that it is different for almost every school and program. It's really different. Like musical theater is pretty standardized. And dance, it's just like Wild West. So you really need to research programs and then look deeply into their application process. So a lot of schools have auditions, but those auditions can include, they range from some are just a ballet class, some are five different styles, an interview and a solo. You know, it's just a huge mix.
00:07:41
Speaker
It's a stressful process and students see their peers, their student athlete peers, they start way earlier, but they're done way earlier. They're committing in junior year. And then some of their academic-focused peers, purely academic, might ED somewhere. So then they're kind of one and done. But with dance, you really need to take your time because you learn so much about yourself as a dancer through this process.
00:08:09
Speaker
And each dance department has a different lens, has different opportunities, and it has a different sort of structure. So starting to see where you fit and what you want and where the connections are is, it can be a pretty time consuming process.
00:08:28
Speaker
Yes. And what I think a lot of families or dancers don't always realize is they have to get admitted into the university academically and the dance program.
00:08:39
Speaker
And they're separate. so you may get into one and not the other. And so I think the normal recommendation for your average student is maybe like six to eight universities. But for dancers, I always say to apply to more because you have to get to both programs. So it can be a little bit trickier.
00:08:55
Speaker
I agree. So having ah a wider range is also really important for dancers to have a really balanced list, to understand who they are academically, to have some insight into who they are technically and artistically. It also depends at some institutions. The dance department has a lot of say and sway with academic admissions. In some institutions, it is a completely separate process. Some places you find out all at the same time. Some places you might find out one far before the other and just be waiting. So understanding your academic profile, understanding your artistic profile, and understanding that that those are two two different ways of looking at who you are as an individual.
Common Application Mistakes and Financial Planning
00:09:44
Speaker
What are some of the common mistakes that you see dancers make when they're approaching the college application process? Let's be honest. The biggest mistake is that families, dancers and parents start looking at schools before they look at their budget and understand the college financing landscape.
00:10:04
Speaker
It's complex, and it's there are some really expensive schools that are great, and there are some people that it is not a stressor to pay for them. However, there are a lot of incredibly affordable schools with amazing dance programs And dance is not a field where you can sustain a whole lot of student debt. So I think understanding kind of what you're working with and being grateful for whatever your family has to offer you, whether it's financial support, whether it's itty-bitty bit of financial support, maybe it's none, but they have time to help you figure things out. We work with a number of pro bono students as well. So kind of understanding
00:10:49
Speaker
college financing, it's also a lot different. I'm 48. It's a lot different than those of us with college-bound kids. When we were young, students could take out a lot of debt. Now there are limits on that, and which I actually think is good. But it means that parents are sometimes surprised that they would be the one taking on debt. So kind of understanding finances.
00:11:12
Speaker
Yeah, one thing I tell a lot of parents is when they're starting this process to get really clear on how much they're willing to willing and able to contribute financially, physically, and emotionally. And talk to your dancer about that. What can we do for you? This is how much financially we can support you. This is how much we can physically help you get to your auditions, move into college, all those things. This is how much emotional support I'm able to offer you when you're going through this.
00:11:40
Speaker
And having that boundary super clear at the beginning helps us The entire process goes so much smoother because now you're not going back later and having all these hard conversations when things come up. It's like we we talk about this and now we can move forward with a really clear plan.
00:11:58
Speaker
Totally. Clarity is kindness. It's better to know what you're working with and go from there. And then like together we can get so excited about so many parameters. I always start the process with a parent session where we just like talk about money so that I'm never introducing schools that are not going to be players.
00:12:16
Speaker
I also think that sometimes some of the general college advice for your general student is not useful for dancers. So sometimes I get frustrated when families invest a lot of money in a college counselor who doesn't know much about dance. i'd Rather, they have one session with you or with me or someone who really understands college dance.
00:12:39
Speaker
Because otherwise they just get this list of the few programs that that person has heard of. And also the advice. Sometimes students come to me having been told at school that they need to decide, do they want a big school? Do they want a football school? Do they want a warm school?
00:12:55
Speaker
And the thing with dance is like we've already restricted the number of programs. There are, you know, over 4,000 institutions in the United States. But there are, you know,
00:13:06
Speaker
just hundreds of programs with dance departments. And some of them, you get a pretty small, tight-knit experience, even if you're somewhere big. And somewhere small, you often get lots of travel or
Exploring Programs and Financial Advice
00:13:20
Speaker
opportunity. So I like for dancers to keep an open mind and look at departments before they are, you know, deciding that they want to be warm. Yeah.
00:13:31
Speaker
Yes, although I will say that when I went to my college dance tours, I definitely did gravitate towards certain campuses more than others. And it did play into my decision overall. I mean, in the very end, it was like, this is the dance department for me. But definitely some campuses I could say, yeah I can picture myself here. And some I was like, I don't think this is going to be for me, even if I do like the dance department.
00:13:55
Speaker
That's what I mean, though. So right now I'm hearing students weed them out before they've even visited. So I told I'm totally on board. Like you can get a feel of a school once you're there. But I want students to be be willing to go to the audition. And then after the audition, if you're like, this is not for me, the kindest thing you can do is withdraw your application and make space for someone else. But yeah, absolutely. You get you get a huge feel like once you're there.
00:14:22
Speaker
Back to the finances, what are some maybe non-traditional ways that you might advise families if they have a gap in their finances beyond the student loan or that kind of thing? What else could they do to supplement?
00:14:36
Speaker
I mean, it depends how big the gap is. Like if it's really a gap that, you know, if it's like $30,000 gap or something, I think it's time to circle back and look at other institutions. If it's a $7,000 gap, once your student is in college, they're going be dancing so much in college. It is totally fine for them to be working full time in the summers. They don't have to be doing summer intensives every summer or to be they qualify for federal work study work study jobs build incredible skills if you get your technical theater chops through a work study job on campus that's a huge help you know some programs have built in that you can get your pilates teaching certificate or yoga teaching certificate when you're in school so doing that early and then teaching some through the year. So definitely like students working is great. And I don't want students to go to schools planning on getting additional scholarships over time. But sometimes there's artistic merit that is available only for the second through fourth years. So sometimes that comes into play. But I think really it's about looking at What the gap is. You can also get your package. There is ah sometimes a little bit of negotiating room that's usually in the $5,000 range. But if a school is $30,000 more than you have budgeted for, it's not the fit for you. And fit is really what we're going to, which, like you said, includes financial fit.
00:16:11
Speaker
And I always say to students, just ask about scholarships. Even if you didn't get one, just ask if there's anything available. Because if they really were interested in you and you communicate, this is my dream school.
00:16:23
Speaker
I can only come here if I am given this amount of scholarship. It might be available. It might not. You never know until you ask. You can ask. Absolutely. There are also pieces that if you know about earlier in the process, like if you're in a WUI state or if you're in an academic common market state, there are ways that tuition is more manageable. You know, sometimes when you're like 18 and you're going to college, it feels like Yay, I'm leaving. i want to go to l a or New York or you know, wherever. But you have your whole life ahead of you. So if the best financial option is to stay in state and save, then you get to move to New York after college, too. Like there are lots of times that you can go places. So helping students realize this is like the beginning of a long, like I said, a twisty, windy path.
00:17:14
Speaker
That's great advice. And I agree that as a dancer, having student loans was not cohesive with my pay rate. So I definitely agree if you can avoid that, that is great advice.
00:17:27
Speaker
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00:17:45
Speaker
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00:18:07
Speaker
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00:18:20
Speaker
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00:18:35
Speaker
Let's talk more about fit. On your website, you really emphasize that going to the best school isn't really the goal in dance, like quote unquote best school. It's about finding your right fit. So what are some things you think dancers need to consider in order to find their fit?
Finding the Right College Fit
00:18:49
Speaker
It's such a great question. I'm really one of those people that wants to sort of toss out the idea of like a dream school or like a perfect school. College is about growth and personal development and getting you towards making the life that you want to make. And there's not one program that is going to launch you into the world and into life. FIT is really about finding a place where you see yourself growing Even if you don't know where that growth is going to lead. So rather than thinking like, I can go to this program so that I can do X, Y, and Z, the sense that like, I could go to this program and oh my gosh, I wonder who I'll be at the end of it. Sort of being excited about the inherent learning People that you, faculty members that you can learn from and a cohort of dancers who you'll learn with. Your cohort is really your connection and your building block for being a part of the field. I try to talk to three to four dance departments a week just to sort of be knowing what's going on. And I always ask what they're doing to build and support their cohorts because I i think that is
00:20:05
Speaker
That is the core of like belongingness and and the piece of fit. And I also believe in like, this is such a saying, but loving the place that loves you back. So when you are wanted by a department and you can see yourself there, that's when the two pieces are fitting together.
00:20:25
Speaker
And I think it's a really good question to ask how you're supporting the dancers moving toward a career because I had a really wonderful experience at college. I loved my program. I was prepared in so many ways from that program for a career, but I did not receive support specifically for auditions. I was not being mentored ah like about where I should go. no one was checking in on me. i wasn't being taught how to do the resume, all the videos, all that kind of thing. So for me, that was something was figuring out on my own, which is why I'm so passionate now about but helping dancers bridge that gap because –
00:21:03
Speaker
Even coming out of a college dance program, I didn't have that. And so it's not enough, in my opinion. If you're a college dance program, people are paying a lot of money for your program to get a job hopefully afterwards. And obviously, it's never a guarantee. And you can't make that guarantee. But you can at least say, we will do what we can do in our power to help you get a job and express what that is. And I think for dancers, it's OK to ask that. How do you help your students move on to the next stage of their career?
00:21:31
Speaker
Absolutely. And that's really useful to hear. One thing I always look at is when programs are bringing in ah guests, are they only bringing in guest choreographers or are they bringing in people like you to talk about career mentoring or are they bringing in alumni who are doing a lot of different things? Or are they bringing in mental health folks and dieticians? Like, who does the department consider, like, a guest artist or guest speaker? It just gives a lot of information about how they're thinking about dancer development.
00:22:08
Speaker
Yeah. When you're helping a dancer find their best fit, what are some of the first questions that you ask them to sort of reveal where you might want to lead them? Sure.
00:22:19
Speaker
So my dissertation was about like dance in higher education and am embodied knowing on what I call dance knowledge. At the root of that is the sense that like dance deeply embodied, deeply physical and has something really important to bring to the world, like physical connection and empathy. And so the question I start with with dancers is i want them to tell me like what dancing feels like to them, what they feel in their bodies when they're dancing, what they feel
00:22:51
Speaker
before class and after class, ask them to tell me about a really important dance experience to them and really describe it like viscerally, sensorially, all those pieces, because that gives me a window into their physical like way of knowing. And then i also, it's always like helpful just to ask students what they care about. And sometimes they're like, I care about all the things you're supposed to care about, which is like the sweetest answer. And and it gives us such an opportunity to dig deeper and to ask, like, what do I care about? What do I want to do in this world?
00:23:34
Speaker
The type of therapy that I do is called acceptance and commitment therapy. And one of our sayings is choose what matters, do what matters. And I use the same philosophy with dancers, which is you have to have this sense of like what matters to you and then do the things that get you moving in that direction. So that kind of activation of of a really deep caring, which is what I think is our superpower as dancers.
00:23:59
Speaker
Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the nitty gritties of different programs. Can we talk about the difference between BFA and a BA dance program and how dancers might think about choosing between those two sort of binary types of
Choosing Between BFA and BA Programs
00:24:13
Speaker
programs?
00:24:13
Speaker
Totally. Totally. So the main difference for your listeners is that BFA programs have a higher percentage of credit hours that are required to be in the discipline, whereas BA or BS programs have a lower percentage.
00:24:29
Speaker
In actuality, again, you're going to want to compare department to department education. Sometimes you could be in a BA program and be dancing as much as someone at another bfa program. It's just how the program is structured.
00:24:46
Speaker
In programs that have both tracks, you'll notice that the dancers get the same technical foundation, the same performance opportunities, but the BA students have a little bit more flexibility in working. which dance classes they choose versus a BFA student might have a longer list of requirements. So in a program with both, it's often more conducive to double major with a BA because you have that flexibility. But in programs, there are a lot of programs now that are BFA programs where they make double majoring totally possible.
00:25:22
Speaker
Yeah, so it's really not like, it's not as straightforward as we would like it to be. you still have to investigate so deeply into the programs. Like the difference between an MFA and an MA is often that an MFA is a terminal performance degree and an MA is a research degree that is not terminal. So, but BFA and BA, it depends on, it really depends on sort of how the institution is structuring things.
00:25:48
Speaker
Another idea that I really like about your work is that dancers should think about their career through a really broad lens. And I do see a lot of dancers who get very narrow. If I don't get to this company, then I'm done. I'm a failure.
00:26:03
Speaker
we can go down that steep path very quickly. can you talk about what this looks like in practice when you're working with dancers? Totally. So I think this is especially true in ballet. I love the ballet dancers who I work with. They often have narrowed their path so much that you're exactly right, that it feels like there's this binary that's like either success or failure. And when we're able to like blow open the notion of like what it means to be a dancer, what it means to be a dance artist, it's Then suddenly it's not a stopping point if, you know, when I work with like a trainee who is pivoting, instead of being like, okay, I'm done with that. There's a sense of like, oh, I can still build on all the hard work that I've done, all the knowledge that I've accumulated, and I can do something with this. And building broadly means building like an inclusive and generative dance ecosystem. It means thinking of dance not just as the performer, but all the pieces that go into making and all the pieces that go into watching dance. That's how we cultivate
00:27:16
Speaker
a community that is, again, expansive, connective. There are so many ways that dance is so important in culture, in connection. Our whole goal is for like old people to be dancing, right? We want people to be moving, to be happy, to be connected. I'm obsessed with this woman on Instagram who does chair tap dancing. And it's just, it makes me so happy To see people coming together and dancing. Or my late father had Parkinson's disease. And even like at the stage of disease where he couldn't walk anymore, he kind of like locomoted with a little shuffle.
00:27:56
Speaker
He would go to his dance for Parkinson's class and he could waltz. Like he could down up up when he couldn't have a normal gait. It's just... Dance is so important. Now, the stage is important, too. But the more people who identify as dancers, the more people who care about going to see things. And that's how that's how more dances get made. That's how like more dances get seen. And that's when dance is a really vital part of our culture and connection.
00:28:29
Speaker
Yeah, so I think it's important for dancers too when they're looking at programs, we often think only of a performance track, but you could be in a pedagogy track, you could be an arts admin, you could be kinesiology. There's so many different even minors or concentrations within a dance major that you can look into.
00:28:44
Speaker
Absolutely. Dancers are also amazing in allied health. Dancers make incredible PTs. Dancers make phenomenal occupational therapists or speech therapists. I'm a biased bit. Dancers make great mental health clinicians and dancers make great journalists and communicators and marketers and writers.
00:29:05
Speaker
Yeah, there's so many fields where there are these natural crossovers and in an age where there's so much understandable anxiety about what AI is going to do to the job market, knowing that dancers who are comfortable with their physical presence and being in physical connection with other humans, that is a core, core skill in our world right now.
00:29:31
Speaker
Yes. I think it's such a great time in your life when you're in college to explore what else you might be interested in. I love when dancers just take other random classes that you wouldn't have thought would be maybe your passion or your interest. When I was in college, I was convinced that I wanted to be a physical therapist once I retired from dance and I started doing a double major in exercise science and dance to prepare for that.
00:29:55
Speaker
Loved a lot of the classes that I took, but then I took organic chemistry and was like, nope, if that is a requirement, it just like I could not, I couldn't get myself to care about it and realized, okay, this is not going to be the path for me. but what I discovered through that I was required to take quite a few psychology classes for my physical therapy track because so much of it is the psychology of doing the exercises and how do you encourage somebody to do these things that are really, really hard and motivation. And I found that I loved that. I was so fascinated by that track. And so it just college is a very unique experience. And I haven't found any other time in my life where I've had the opportunity to just explore so many different fields and
00:30:37
Speaker
at one time when that is what's expected of you. So it's just such a beautiful time to dig deep. I agree. When dancers are structuring their college experience, I really want them to so take advantage of whether it's semesters or quarters or 414, however things are structured, like for the rest of your life, things get kind of like long and drawn out. But this is a time where like you're exactly right. Like as you're doing those general education requirements, take a lot of different classes and be super curious about them. And some of them, like the ones you hate, all you have to do is finish the course, you know, and pass it. And the ones you love, then you can take more courses in that or find out like what does it mean to be a dietician or what does it mean to the a historian or those pieces. And along those lines, doing things like short-term internships or practicum or sort of structuring in these shorter intensive periods is an opportunity that you have in college that in the slog of adult life, you don't always have.
00:31:46
Speaker
Is there any other advice you would give to dancers to design their college experience to prepare them for a really sustainable life in dance? Yeah, so I think that sustainability, and this is hard when you're, you know, when you're 18, 19, 20, but thinking about sustainability as going beyond those first few years out of college. And so sort of thinking, like thinking, long I actually, I was listening to your self-care podcast and you were talking about like how you work out now, not to perform, but for your like 80 year old self. And that's exactly what I think about. Like I'm 48, but when I go to the gym, I'm like, I'm doing this for 85 years. old me. So thinking long term, it doesn't mean that I know that XYZ will happen, but it means that I'm kind of thinking long term. So it's totally fine and wonderful and fun. And I did it to get out of college and make just exactly what you need to survive, dance all the time and not save for like a year or two. But after a while, you're going to need some financial stability as you age. It's just Effective life, whether you have kids, kids are very expensive or not. But thinking about understanding your strengths, knowing that your career can shift and change over time, but building up your skill set. I love for dancers to take either a personal finance class or like an intro to business type class because dancers are often freelancers. They're often entrepreneurial. So knowing and learning how to manage your money is really important.
00:33:26
Speaker
And letting it be okay for your career to shift and change because it will. Even if you finish college, have a company contract,
00:33:38
Speaker
you will probably be doing something different 10 years
Financial Security and Career Possibilities
00:33:43
Speaker
later. You might be teaching at that same company, but probably you'll be... You know, like Caitlin, like doing 12 different things and all building on what you've done.
00:33:54
Speaker
If I told 18-year-old Caitlin what I was doing right now, she would be like, ah what? I could never have imagined any of the things that I'm doing, but all of the experiences and classes I took and jobs I had and different things I did throughout my career prepared me for this moment, even if I wasn't building to it specifically. So it's like,
00:34:16
Speaker
having that dream and having that long-term goal, but also just staying curious because you might be surprised by what stands out to you as you're learning different things about what is actually interesting or what you enjoy doing.
00:34:30
Speaker
Absolutely. You discover these different strengths about yourself. I would say like dancers mobilize their knowledge. You find these different things about yourself and then you find out ways to use them and put them together and and make an impact in the world.
00:34:45
Speaker
Yeah, and I think for dancers remember too, it's okay to want to make money. yeah It's okay to want to be financially secure. I think sometimes we romanticize that starving artist mindset.
00:34:58
Speaker
And like you said, it is a little bit romantic and fun when you're fresh out of college, but after a few years, it does get really hard. So realizing that you can make money and it's not like you're selling out, but you can find multiple things that you can do, whether it's in the dance field or not, where you can piece together this life that involves all these things you like doing.
00:35:20
Speaker
it may not look as traditional as nine to five, but there are so many different ways that you can support yourself and still be in this dance world. Absolutely. And it's also it's OK to stop dancing or stop pursuing a performance career. Again, it doesn't mean that it was a waste of time. It's still all that built up knowledge.
00:35:43
Speaker
And my hope is that we can explode the notion of what it means to be a dancer or what a successful career is. I had a conversation like a year ago, i was actually taking class from someone and she was asking me about my career and she said, oh, you made it so much farther than I did. And I just, it just gave me such a sad feeling that we've been so conditioned to think that like dance is like one long road that some people have to like pull over on the side of and other people get farther along because it's really just not that's not how dance is dance is a lot of different people finding their way and their point of connection I can very easily think of myself as a failure in dance because i
00:36:33
Speaker
didn't you know One of my best friends danced for Cunningham. like I didn't have the same career as Mandy, but we are still connected. We still get a dance camp every year in the summer together. And we've had very different careers, but we've both had careers in dance.
00:36:49
Speaker
Yeah. No, that's exactly right. Because one of my key points that I tell dancers all the time is... Success is what matters to you. What makes you feel successful? Because exactly like you said, we're conditioned to believe that there are certain jobs or certain companies or ways to do this career that are better than others. But what really matters is if you're happy, you feel fulfilled, you're doing what you believe and what lights you up. And There will always be comparison. and That's natural human motion. But I feel successful in my career, even though I didn't dance for a major ballet company. i felt like what I did was really powerful and I loved being there. And that was where I felt fulfilled. So... kind of back to before, like broadening those horizons and daring to take a greater look at what a dance career could be.
00:37:37
Speaker
Absolutely. It's so true. just Also, like we want people to dance and then go on and be like crazy wild lawyers and be on the board of our dance company. You know, like we we need people to leave dance and do other things. Also to take the dancers knowledge out into the world. It's it's great.
00:37:59
Speaker
Yeah, dancers can do anything. We are so determined. We are, like you said, we're so scrappy. And we are just used to learning. Our life is learning. You're learning so much every single day. You're learning choreography. You're learning new combinations. That is your your brain on dance. And so to go do a whole new field and to learn a whole new thing feels like a very natural progression for us.
00:38:19
Speaker
And we, i think you can't understate how learning to appreciate dance criticism or adjustments or critiques, corrections, it cultivates in us this really deep and like internal curiosity, not towards perfection, but it cultivates in us this ability to constantly be finding and discovering new ways of being. Mm-hmm.
00:38:52
Speaker
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00:39:09
Speaker
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00:39:21
Speaker
Head to orzabrand.com to lock in your deal. That's O-R-Z-A-B-R-A-N-D.com or follow the link in our show notes today. I want to get a little bit more into the audition process because I know you've had experience on admissions committees.
Audition Insights and Improvisation
00:39:39
Speaker
Can you talk about what faculty members are really looking for when they are looking for dancers at auditions? Yes. So when I was on the committee, I was on the committee on graduate student admissions. So I'll talk about that for a second and then undergrad.
00:39:54
Speaker
So for graduate school, what we really wanted to know is Why an MFA? Why here? Why now?
00:40:05
Speaker
There really needs to be a specific reason why you're doing graduate work. It's not a logical next step. So who is it you want to work with? What do you want to do in your time here?
00:40:16
Speaker
Now, for undergrads, one of the things I talk with when I have my chats with dance departments is kind of what are you seeing in auditions? What are you looking for? Also, what gaps are you seeing? And it's always really telling. So technically, different places are kind of looking for different things. It tells us a lot about their values. Some some schools are really looking for placement or a technical foundation. Some schools are looking for of raw talent that they can mold. Some schools are looking for expressivity or the types of things that are harder to teach, and they figure they can catch people up technically.
00:40:57
Speaker
But overall, and this is why I like for for your top choices to go to the in-person audition at the school, the panel is watching Your technique. They can see that pretty quickly.
00:41:10
Speaker
But they're watching how you approach learning. They're watching how you're reacting to material that is brand new to you. They're watching how you're interacting with the people around you. They're watching how you react when you like...
00:41:27
Speaker
you know, totally screw something up, whether you shut down or whether you give yourself like a smile. They're watching for sort of the tone and texture of how you take class. Because at every institution, the faculty members really know their students. That's one of the things I love about dance in higher education. You can't skip class. You're not anonymous. You're very known by the faculty.
00:41:54
Speaker
In some institutions, the faculty are doing their research with professionals, but at a lot of institutions, they're actually doing their creative research with undergraduates. So they're looking for students that they want to work with.
00:42:08
Speaker
They're also looking for students... Kind of like I said with FIT of the like, who knows where this person will go. They're looking for students who bring this real sense of openness.
00:42:20
Speaker
So programs don't want to work with someone who has like a very fixed mindset. They're looking for sort of creative flexibility and openness. And you can you can demonstrate those in your audition. Yes. And one thing that I discovered very quickly when I was going to college auditions,
00:42:41
Speaker
was that most programs asked for improvisation. And I was a trained ballet dancer. i did not like improv. I was like, this is stupid, you know? Just give me a combination. But, and at the time I thought, oh, this must be a more contemporary program because I was still in that mindset of like the ballerina. Oh, I just want to do ballet only, which very much shifted in my career. But I thought, oh, this must not be for serious ballerinas. And now looking back, after all of my experience, I can see that was actually a very specific exercise that was given to see who was a smart dancer, who could be creative, who could think on their feet. How do you approach something that you're not comfortable with?
00:43:25
Speaker
Do you just go, oh this is stupid? Or do you say, okay, I don't feel comfortable with this, but I'm going to dive in and try it. All of those things they're looking for in that moment, it wasn't really about...
00:43:36
Speaker
what your improv looks like. They didn't like care about that. They just cared how you approached it. And that the sort of how you approach it. Also, you can tell a lot from a dancer's with spatial awareness. Are they knocking into other people? Are they trying to take the space versus modulating? It can be really useful. Increasingly, programs are also doing, as I said earlier, like multiple genres in the audition, kind of sometimes for equity, knowing that someone might be trained in just one. So they get to have their moment in the genre they've trained in, and also to see how students respond to something that is, that sort of disrupts their idea of what dance is. You'll, you notice it a lot ah also with more contemporary programs where students think of
00:44:25
Speaker
contemporary dance is kind of like a lyrical competition style and the dance departments think about it differently. So they're looking at, again, not expecting you to know how to do certain things, but watching how you approach it.
00:44:39
Speaker
okay What advice do you give to dancers on how to approach their interviews? So be prepared. so really practicing. We do something in the summer that we call faux-dition, where we do like a mock audition and we also do mock interviews. So we're able to help people get through the nervousness of talking. Even for me, like, i don't love talking. i would rather be rolling around on the floor. So it's a skill that we have to practice and think about having thoughtful answers to questions that we're prepared for and knowing how
00:45:22
Speaker
to breathe and think and answer questions that come out of the blue. And again, it's often about how you answer, showing that you've put some thought into things. Schools, you know, always ask why here. And so if your why here is just like my mom went here, it's It doesn't show that you've really like researched the departments of being ready to say you all offer this. And I think i would really grow in that.
00:45:56
Speaker
Specifics, definitely. What are some of the questions you think that dancers and families need to be asking college dance programs on the flip side if they're in an interview or even before
Communication and Application Tips
00:46:05
Speaker
then? What should they be asking?
00:46:07
Speaker
Okay, so here's what I think. You can ask whatever you want, as long as it's not like very obviously on the website. So make sure you've done your research, but then ask what you're interested in.
00:46:19
Speaker
But what matters more is how the program, like like we said with auditions, it's it's the how. So how programs respond to your question is going to matter more than the content of the answer. So I'll give you an example. so if you ask Can students double major?
00:46:40
Speaker
Some schools will say, oh, man, it's really hard. A lot of these students do it, but I don't. that It's a lot.
00:46:50
Speaker
We just tell you guys it's a lot of work. Another school might say, oh my goodness, it's so much work and we have so many students doing it. We have students double majoring in communications. We have students double majoring in exercise science. We know double majoring in engineering just doesn't work. You need to come in with some AP classes or some dual enrollment. You probably need to plan for a summer.
00:47:15
Speaker
We advise from the beginning. It's super hard and we're always just floored by how amazing our students are. Right. So both answers are saying it's super hard.
00:47:25
Speaker
But one program is saying like, why? well What a pain. And the other program is inspired by their students. So listening to how same with if you ask, what are your alumni doing? And a school says, oh, they're doing all sorts of things. Some are performing. Some are doing other things versus if they're like, there's a really huge range. We have people dancing with girls.
00:47:51
Speaker
this company and this company. We have a student who's the working at the n NEA. We have students who've gone to physical therapy programs.
00:48:01
Speaker
So the difference, again, again, the answer is doing a lot of things. The difference is you can tell that one program is staying connected with their students and knows exactly what they're up to And the other is not as. And there's ah there's quite a big range in how much programs stay in touch with their alums.
00:48:22
Speaker
And also, if they answer. I've had so many dancers reaching out to programs with questions and never getting a response. And that's immediately a red flag for them and their families because they're like, I'm sending my 18-year-old to this school and I'm not getting any communication from them. What's it going to be like?
00:48:39
Speaker
Yeah, so the it is useful to know the level of organization of the department is useful to know. The communication should always come from the student. I still hear faculty members so frustrated hearing from parents so much. So the communication should come from the student.
00:48:59
Speaker
And in In bigger programs, there's usually like a recruitment director. Sometimes that's a staff member who's incredibly responsive. Sometimes it's a faculty member who's super responsive. Sometimes it's a faculty member who's really overwhelmed and not great at email. So...
00:49:18
Speaker
it It doesn't always equate to how the actual program is run, but it is a useful piece of information. And if you're down to the point where you're comparing two programs, one where you get clear responses and one where you either don't get responses or get half responses, again, that's useful information.
00:49:41
Speaker
Yeah, and definitely a good point to remember for dancers, you need to be communicating with the programs you are about to. are adults at this point. You're about to enter a college program.
00:49:52
Speaker
Your parents might help you craft an email if you're uncomfortable with that and you're still working on those skills, but you need to be the one who's doing that. And you need be checking your email address on the flip side because I thought dancers get acceptances or get emails from programs and not answer them and a timely manner. And then... Yeah. So I always... Just one like little piece of advice that's really useful is to create an email address that's specific for your whole college process. And then yes, key point, be checking it What are some of the realities about the dance profession that you think young dancers and families need to understand earlier? Because I do feel like there is often some concern from parents about their dancers taking this path. You know, they may not be dancers or artists themselves. And so the idea of taking a path that's not maybe as secure feels scary.
00:50:48
Speaker
What do you think they need to know about this profession? You know, i think we're at a time where so much of the job market and economy feels really scary.
00:51:02
Speaker
Five or eight years ago, getting a computer science degree was a great idea. And now it's not as great or as secure. So I think for parents, knowing that supporting their dancers and cultivating their flexibility and their versatility in dance, but also broadly, is an important skill. Also knowing that for a dancer...
00:51:28
Speaker
Being a part of a dance community is really a protective factor. It gives them a connection to the college experience. Whether or not they pursue a performing career, it will help ensure connection and connection.
00:51:46
Speaker
enjoyment in college and you'd rather have your child like enjoying their school's nutcracker than enjoying smoking pot in a dorm room or whatever yeah like whatever the the range is and and knowing that like if approached with a broad mindset that being a dancer is an incredible way to be in the world. And like we both said, like it might be your forever career or it might be something that you do and then you do other things. But, you know, it's the same thing. Like my goddaughter majored in philosophy and she's going to go on to law school. She's not ah going to become a philosopher, but that that
00:52:33
Speaker
foundational logical thinking is what's preparing her for law school. So our dance majors are are cultivating a really interesting type of knowledge. And I have patients who come to me and when I ask kind of what they're looking for in a therapist, they're like, I saw you were a dancer. And there's this, especially for folks who are trauma survivors or are processing things, there's this sense of like,
00:52:59
Speaker
safety and that physical knowledge. Like, you know, people who've not really danced, but they know that a dancer is someone who knows about the body and is comfortable talking about the body. It's an asset.
00:53:10
Speaker
Yeah, and as a dancer, I'm definitely more likely to choose or gravitate toward a therapist who was a dancer because it's such a specific experience and to have somebody who gets it to talk about with can be really powerful. And also dance is something that will not be replaced by AI, right? AI is not taking over performing job. So I'm actually curious at this point in our world if this will start to shift toward artists and this kind of medium being the more secure job.
00:53:40
Speaker
Mm-hmm. That point of connection. Yeah. I mean, my rolfer that I see for my neck problems was a dancer. Like there there are a lot of dancers like who go on to do other things that are like human to human professions. And we are like, we are used to making quick friendships and making quick connections and being vulnerable with each other, which not everyone learns how to do.
00:54:09
Speaker
Last question for you, Ashley. What advice would you give to a high school dancer who is just starting to think about taking the college path?
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:54:18
Speaker
So that's a great question because I just put on my website a guide for a high school. So I'll send you the link so you can link it in the show notes. most like For the overview, though, I think that ninth graders should be thinking about high school. They do not need to be thinking about college yet because have so much pressure on them.
00:54:38
Speaker
There are a few things they can do to be organized, like start an artistic portfolio and chart their high school time. Around 10th grade is a great time to start lightly thinking about it. We do technique evaluations with 10th graders. So helping think about where are the gaps in your training that you might want to start filling in or what are the strengths we see in you. Figuring out your academic strengths and your academic connections is really important for 10th graders.
00:55:09
Speaker
The summer between 10th and 11th grade is a wonderful time to go away if you have the resources to go to a summer training, especially at a college, to get a sense of what that's like. Junior year is like...
00:55:24
Speaker
I just want dancers, like I know they want to dance all the time, but you got to lock in on your academics. Junior year matters the most. I want dancers to do test prep. Test scores don't matter that much for dance degrees, but sometimes they really help with merit awards. More and more schools are going to be requiring them.
00:55:45
Speaker
And so it's just worth doing your best and seeing what happens and really starting to figure out who you are as an artist, what type of programs interest you. In spring of the junior year, we even often offer a specific package for juniors for a list builder. It's ideal if by the end of junior year you have A big list that will probably shorten down a little bit. Summer between junior and senior year is a great time to do like one intensive and then work as much as you can and save. And then senior year is full of auditions and learning about yourself and enjoying senior year and being patient and then doing some discernment. And i even sometimes meet with people just at the decision-making phase where they've done the whole process on their own and just need help deciding between a couple programs and pulling in all my pieces of knowledge to help people just see clearly what their options are. and having a connection and gratitude with your, whether it's your studio or your high school or your your creative community at home, getting to enjoy
00:56:56
Speaker
that Yeah, and I think most dancers are used to the audition period starting January, right, for summer intensives, companies, but colleges, auditions start in like October typically. Yep, and you always want to apply early action when you can for the schools. and the earlier, it's tricky for students with nutcracker seasons, but the earlier you can audition, the better can.
00:57:23
Speaker
Yeah, that's why I do think like if you can start getting your stuff together the summer before, amazing. Because like you said too, there's no one process. Many schools too, I've seen this more and more, are having you film really specific combinations. So instead of saying, send us a video of plies, tendus, degages, whatever, you can just do one set It's like, here are four combinations we want to see to learn those for every school. It's more filming than you're probably used to.
00:57:53
Speaker
I know. And some of those pre-screens are just not my favorite because you can see technique with the dancer doing like what they're familiar with. Yeah. The the process of learning from video is especially I'm consuming.
00:58:07
Speaker
Yes. Yes. So definitely start thinking about this a little bit earlier, dancers, especially if you have a busy Nutcracker season and you know you're going to be swamped. It will take more time than you think that it will.
00:58:19
Speaker
Give yourself breathing room. You will feel way less stressed about the whole process. Ashley, this was so helpful, so informative. I know that there are many families and dancers who are going to be very grateful for this conversation. If anyone listening wants to learn more about you or your work, where can we find you?
00:58:37
Speaker
So you can go to danceandcollegecounseling and is spelled out.com. And I also am about to like relaunch, rebrand my Instagram inspired by the Brainy Ballerina. So I'm hoping to have more of a presence on Instagram and do some Q&As and more free educational resources on that platform um too.
00:58:59
Speaker
Amazing. We'll put all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much, Ashley. I really appreciate all of your wisdom. Thank you so much. It's been a delight. Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast.
00:59:11
Speaker
If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe. By subscribing, you'll never miss an episode.
00:59:23
Speaker
And you'll join our community of dancers passionate about building a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry. Plus, your reigns help others discover the show too. I'll be back with a new episode next week.
00:59:36
Speaker
In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Ballerina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.