Transcript
Speaker: but you can get some exposure to some other things and and just kind of get the wheels turning about what's next. What skills do I have? What interests do I have that could, you know, turn into something that I might love just as much, if not maybe even more than dancing.
Speaker: I'm Caitlin, a former professional ballerina turned dance educator and career mentor, and this is the Brand New Ballerina podcast. I am here for the aspiring professional ballerina who wants to learn what it really takes to build a smart and sustainable career in the dance industry.
Speaker: I'm peeling back the curtain of the professional dance world with open and honest conversations about the realities of becoming a professional dancer. Come along to gain the knowledge and inspiration you need to succeed in a dance career on your terms.
Speaker: Hello and welcome to the Brainy Ballerina podcast. I'm your host, Caitlin Sloan, and I am joined today by Caroline Simpkins. Caroline is a former professional ballerina, ballet teacher, researcher, and the creator of Ballet Science, a platform dedicated to exploring where dance meets data.
Speaker: Caroline holds a PhD in kinesiology, specializing in biomechanics, and through ballet science, she works to make the science of ballet more accessible and help people better understand how dance can benefit the body and mind throughout the entire lifespan.
Speaker: Caroline can speak on such a wealth of topics and covers so many of these in the Ballet Science Podcast. So I highly recommend you check that out. But today we're actually going to dive into her career transition and how she made the jump from professional ballet dancer to scientist.
Speaker: So Caroline, can you tell us, after dancing professionally for 12 years, how did you decide it was time to step away from the stage and pursue another career? Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm a huge fan of your podcast, and this is super exciting. So thank you. Yeah. I started dancing professionally right out of high school. So I trained at the Georgia Ballet School, which is a school outside of Atlanta. I trained there my entire life and and then joined their professional company right out of high school. I stayed there for seven seasons.
Speaker: And while I was doing that, I was also going to college. I was very fortunate that I could do both. For the most part, there were a few seasons where when I started getting more principal and soloist roles, I needed to focus more on the dancing. And so I took a few semesters off. But for the most part, over that seven years, I was dancing and going to college, at least in some capacity. But towards the end of my time there, I was just getting burnt out.
Speaker: It was a smaller company and it really was a part time company, but they wanted us to dance like a full time company. And we wanted to dance like a full time company. But that being said, you know, in order to make ends meet and, you know, pay my rent, in addition to the dancing, I was teaching at night. I was working the front desk in the studio at night, answering the phone, selling tickets, taking tuition payments. Then also going to school some semesters. So, you know, I would sometimes go to school from 8 to 9.30 in the morning go dance from 10 to 3.
Speaker: And then either stay and teach or stay and work at the desk or go right back to college and sometimes be, you know, dissecting a cat at 11 o'clock at night. So luckily I was young. And so now I don't know if I could do that, but there were very long days. I loved dancing. I loved performing. I was very grateful to be doing some very challenging roles, both classical and contemporary. Myrta and Giselle, some soloist stuff in Paquita. I also had a lot of roles created on me, which was very fun, very exciting, i but a lot of pressure.
Speaker: it just reached a point where I was just really anxious and stressed out all the time. And it just wasn't really anymore. And at that point, I wasn't in school at all. I was really only in ballet. One thing that's always been very important to me is trying to balance out the ballet with like non-ballet things. And I still to this day think that's very important. I'm a huge ballet nerd, but I think having other interests and having other people who are not dancers in your life is important. And I just felt like that was kind of missing that point in my life. And I was still pretty young. was, think, 24, 25 when I made this decision to leave the company and take a break, just kind of reset and go back to school and finish my degree. At that point, I really only needed like two more semesters of classes and I would be done. I was like, you know Let me just do this. Like, let's just end this. It's been seven years. Let's get this bachelor's degree. I finished my degree. I graduated.
Speaker: For a while, I'll be honest, I didn't want anything to do with ballet. i just really needed a break. I didn't want to take a class. I didn't want to watch ballet. I didn't want to talk about ballet. I just needed to like kind of decompress and reset.
Speaker: And it helped. That worked because after a while, after I finished the degree, i did start to miss it a little bit. i was like you know maybe I'll go take like an open class now and then. I knew some teachers who taught some classes and I liked them and I knew they would kind of leave me alone. You know, I could go and just be like, just pretend like I'm not here. I don't want corrections. Just like I just want to take class. And so I did that for a little bit while also trying to figure out, you know, so I got a bachelor's of science and exercise science.
Speaker: And a very common path from that is to go to physical therapy school. I had taken all the classes. They have kind of like a different track in that degree. Like if you think you might want to do that, you need to take physics, chemistry, you know, some of the more rigorous classes. And I did all that kind of just in case I ever wanted to do that.
Speaker: And I'm very glad I did. I was like, well, let me let me apply to PT school and just see what happens. And part of that process is, you you have to go observe you know in a PT clinic and get these observation hours. And I did that and it was great. I mean, it's very interesting work, but I decided after doing that, and and I actually even worked as a physical therapy technician, briefly in that same clinic. So I ended up having about nine months of experience working there. And after doing that, i was like, you know what, this is great, but this is not for me. And I don't actually want to do this. Ended up doing some freelance work as a dancer. Atlanta is great because there's so many smaller companies and just opportunities to do guesting and And all that kinds of stuff. And so I did that for another five years or so. In addition to lots of teaching, I really started teaching a good bit and came to really love teaching and coaching. I did some coaching for like YIGP, UBC, some of those competitions and really loved that a lot. But again, after all of that, i guess we're reaching like the 12-year mark. So about seven years in the company, about another five years or so freelance work, which was great. I got some extra dancing in while I was still young. Because as we all know, as we get older, it gets bit more. bit harder for many reasons. It kind of reached a point with that where, again, I was teaching a lot, very busy with that. Kind of it had happened again. Like I was very in the ballet world again and not so much outside exposure to things. And as much as I love teaching, i was like, you know, maybe, maybe I should go back to school and get a master's degree. That's kind of low commitment, which sounds weird, but it is in terms of like a graduate degree. The one I did was a pretty clear cut two year master's. You start and two years later, as as long as nothing horrible happens, you should get the degree. Like it's pretty, you know, contained.
Speaker: And then something else huge happens in my life. I was actually diagnosed with thyroid cancer at age 29, right around this time. and i was already kind of starting to think about making a change.
Speaker: And that came out of left field. I was very healthy. You know, I've never even touched a cigarette, caught me off guard and, Just also kind of made me reassess, you know, okay, what am I doing? I'm getting older. I'm almost 30. I am happy to say I'm cancer free now, several years later. But at that point in time, once I was healthy again, i was like, okay, I want to do something with science. I just went through this huge health crisis and was reliant on so much research and science to help get me healthy again. and I just felt like, you know, I'm good at math and science. I've always leaned that way.
Speaker: Growing up in high school, I took all the like honors, AP calculus stuff. And so like, I'm good at science. And I just thought, you know, maybe I should use this and try to connect it to ballet if I can.
Speaker: So yeah, so pretty much at that point after, you know, I did my seven years in the company, finished my bachelor's degree, looked around for a little bit at other career options, taught a good bit.
Speaker: And then the cancer diagnosis at that point, that's kind of when my dancing career ended, i would say. kind of a long and winding road to get to the end of the career. yeah I can relate to the exercise science to PT pathway. I was a double major in dance exercise science when I was in college and organic chemistry effectively ended that journey for me. I was like, this isn't for me.
Speaker: I didn't pursue that. But I think that's really good advice for dancers to, one, realize that PT seems like a pretty normal progression for a dancer if you want to get into the health field. And it's an amazing career if it's for you, but it's not for everyone. And there's so many other different ways that you could be in the science or health field and work with dancers beyond being a physical therapist.
Speaker: Exactly. And that's really what I learned from that time in the clinic. It's great. It's so important. I mean, physical therapists and especially physical therapists who understand dancers and athletes, of course,
Speaker: It's so important. What I came to realize is that, you know, i was like, this is interesting to me, but I'm actually more interested in like the science and research that goes into like, okay, why are we doing this exercise for this injury or for this surgery? I'm sure someone at some point studied this and You know, like, why do we recommend someone do these exercises for balance as they get older? And, you know, kind of so for me, it became more i was interested in the research behind all of the things that happen in, you know, physical therapy, occupational therapy.
Speaker: So, yeah. And of course, like with a PT degree, you would do some research as a part of your training. But I decided the day-to-day clinical stuff was just not in the cards for me. But for any any dancer or dance student out there who is considering PT as a career, i would just so highly recommend spend as much time in different clinics, different settings, because we as dancers, we're think I'm going to become a dance physical therapist, which sure, there are some positions that allow for that. But for the vast majority, it's either going to take you a very long time to get to that point of a PT career where you can specialize, or it might just never happen. you know There's limited spots for that kind of thing.
Speaker: So just being realistic. And for some people, that that's fine. They're okay with working with the general population. And again, it's very important And I think us as dancers, we can bring such a unique perspective, you know, to treating anyone. But yeah, not for me, but that's okay. It all worked out. What did you feel was the hardest part of retiring from the stage? Did it help that you sort of were freelancing and so it wasn't such an abrupt ending?
Speaker: I think so. yeah So again, since I stopped the company and I was still quite young and an abrupt end, to my company, Dancing, to be quite honest, just because it just it was time. like There was never any big like final performance or like this is it, confetti, flowers. You know the lots of dancers when they like retire have something like that. And that's fine. like I don't need that. There wasn't really such a clear break, which I think helped. I think one of the final things I did like a few weeks before my cancer diagnosis with a dance sugar plum, just guesting with a school I was teaching at. And that was a lot of fun. i can't believe I was able to do that. Clearly I was ill. And at the time I knew, i knew something was off. I just, I had major fatigue and I could just, I was like, something's wrong. And I don't know what, I just don't feel like myself. And it turned out I was right. So we know our bodies better than anything else or than anyone else. So Like that was kind of the last big performance I had just going through the cancer stuff.
Speaker: Just it really shook me. And that just changes the way you think about everything and what you prioritize. I was able to look back and appreciate. I loved dancing on stage. That was the best part about it. I just from little age five all the way up.
Speaker: There's nothing like it. That's what I miss the most about it. But there's a lot of things I don't miss. so you know, it all balances out. But I think, like you said, I think it did help that I kind of transitioned out of it. You know, it wasn't like company and then nothing. It was company and then doing things sort of on my terms for a few more years and then just deciding to start moving in a different direction. So, yeah.
Speaker: But it's never easy. Yeah. When you started pursuing your PhD, did you always think that you would bridge the ballet and the science loves together? Or did you see yourself going to a whole separate career? That's a great question. And you know, it's funny, I'm such a control freak and a planner. And when I went into like my master's degree, I really had no plan. All I knew is I just wanted to do something different. And I wanted to do something that wasn't so closely tied to ballet. Like I still wanted to be related if possible, but I just, I wanted something different just to kind of get a different experience and meet different people.
Speaker: So I didn't really have a huge plan, but I will say my first semester in my master's program, I took a biomechanics class, which is what I ended up getting my PhD specialization in. Funny enough, with that same professor, turned out to be my advisor. He focuses on fall prevention research. kind of from different perspectives for different populations. And when I say fall prevention, so as we get older, we have a higher likelihood of falling. You know, my grandmother had several bad falls before she passed away. And it's a really huge public health problem. So, you know, having known my grandmother's experience at that time, I was like, well, that's interesting. Like, that's a really big problem. And like, that is important. And so like, I think in the very first class of the semester, he kind of gave a little presentation to us about his research and showed us sort of how he goes about studying falls. Because it's like, well, how do you study? Like, you can't make someone fall. So how would you study that? And what's interesting is the way he did it is he has this special treadmill in his lab that
Speaker: that does have like an arch overhead. And so you're harnessed and you're never going to actually make someone fall down and hurt themselves, obviously. But you can simulate slipping and tripping on this treadmill while someone's standing there or walking. And so then it's more about studying the reaction.
Speaker: If someone loses their balance suddenly while walking down the street, can they recover without falling down? you know, can they take a fast enough step? Can they activate their muscles quickly enough? How do they control their upper body? Are they able to reach out and grab something? Things like that. And so he kind of just gave this presentation that very first week. And i was like,
Speaker: this is really interesting. I'm not really sure what I would do with this. But then I started thinking like, well, you know, ballet is so good for balance. At this point, I had taught adult ballet a good bit also and had several older students in my classes and seeing just how mobile they were and just in wonderful shape. and you know seeing them improve week by week in ballet class. and So that that just kind of got the wheels turning all like, you know, I could maybe do something with this like ballet and this slipping, tripping thing. like This could be interesting. But that was very early on and that evolved a few years later. I didn't go into it like knowing exactly what I wanted to do. And I think even though that sounds kind of scary, I think being open or like open-minded about
Speaker: future possibilities and not being so narrow, that helped me a lot. If you're a dancer starting to think about college or a parent trying to navigate the often overwhelming world of dance admissions, I want to tell you about an event that I wish more dancers knew about.
Speaker: CNBC is a unique college recruitment weekend designed to connect dancers with college dance programs in a supportive, non-competitive environment focused on growth, learning, and possibility.
Speaker: Hosted by Detroit Metropolitan Dance, formerly Eisenhower Dance Detroit, at Central City Dance in Canton, Michigan, this two-day event takes place October 3rd and 4th and brings together dancers, parents, and college representatives from programs across the United States.
Speaker: Unlike a traditional audition setting, CMBC gives you multiple opportunities to engage with schools through college fair style booths, master classes taught by college faculty, panel discussions, and workshops.
Speaker: In addition to these classes and workshops, dancers can audition and receive valuable feedback while being considered for admissions, scholarships, and other opportunities. And the programming goes beyond auditions too.
Speaker: Dancers and parents can attend sessions covering topics like navigating the college application process, FAFSA and financial aid, careers in dance, nutrition, health and wellness, injury prevention, resilience, and preparing for life beyond high school.
Speaker: Whether you're just beginning your college search or preparing to audition this year, seeing and be seen offers a chance to learn, connect, and gain clarity on your next steps.
Speaker: To learn more and register, head to the link in the show notes and start planning for an inspiring weekend this October. And I know you mentioned that when you started grad school, you wanted to study pointe shoes and ultimately design a new pointe shoe aimed at reducing injuries for professional dancers. Can you talk about the challenges you faced with that initial plan?
Speaker: Yes. So I should back up. I kind of missed this back in my long story. about my dancing career, but I'll go back. I actually started PhD while I was still freelancing at a different university, at a very elite university, actually.
Speaker: That again was kind of when I wasn't sure like PT school or not. I got into PT school. I got into this PhD program. And again, this is when I was still dancing and I did great. I was in the top of my class there. But at that point in time, since I was still dancing, I was very hyper-focused on dancer problems. So for a PhD, you're always going to have to do a dissertation, which is essentially a ginormous research project where you pick a topic and for you know three or four years, that is your life and you do research and then you write it all up and present it. And that's kind of like the culminating experience for a PhD. There's always a lot of pressure to kind of start finding your topic very early on.
Speaker: And so, you know, people have started asking me like, well, what do you want to do? And I was also in a biomechanics lab at this first university as well. But they did a lot of research ah just on things that I wasn't exactly interested in And they didn't really understand dance or ballet. And so there was just this disconnect where I would try to explain, like, there's a huge problem when dancers, you know, they dance in these dead point shoes, and you get these injuries. And it's a really huge problem. And like, we're at this really great university with lots of resources, and I bet we could come up with a new problem.
Speaker: technology for shoes, you know, and no one has done this. And they were just like, well, I don't know. i I feel like I kept just getting kind of passed around from person to person. i mean, it wasn't their fault. They just didn't understand. And I didn't understand clearly how to like sell it at that point yet. I also just didn't really understand academia very well at that point either. So yeah, I wanted to do point shoe research and they were like, well, I don't know. You can try to apply for some funding. And I did.
Speaker: Even with that, I got some great feedback. I applied to a pretty large funding agency, got some great feedback. But the main thing that they said was like, This does not have a very broad application.
Speaker: So much research funding. i mean, you want to be specific, but like if whatever you're doing can somehow apply to some larger problem, then it's going to be more fundable. And even though as dancers, you know, we are like, well, we're very important. Our problems are very important. And they are. They definitely are. It's harder when you're not like in a dance science department or something that's like understands. It's hard to sell that. And it's even harder to sell it to, you know, the funding agencies sometimes if you don't have some sort of connection to like falls or, you know, multiple sclerosis or dementia or, you know, some of these larger problems. And at that point in time, I just didn't really understand that.
Speaker: Luckily, by the time I started the PhD the next time, you know I'd had some more years of just kind of growing up, to be quite honest. My husband is also, he also has a PhD. And so I've learned a lot from him. He's a computer science person, so different field.
Speaker: But still, it just helps to like kind of just understand the process more about how it all works in academia and and funding and PhDs and dissertations. So yeah, by the time it came around to do my, the PhD that I ended up getting, I understood that a lot more. And I think it just clicked with this fall prevention presentation that I saw that I mentioned before. I was like, oh, okay, this is a perfect example of how I could do what they were telling me to do before, like use ballet for something bigger.
Speaker: What is your advice for dancers in academia or even just looking for funding sources? Maybe they're a nonprofit management. How do you think you can most effectively communicate the importance of the arts or ballet related topics to people who really don't have a background in this, who don't understand the importance or the power of the arts in general?
Speaker: It's hard. And I guess for me, what's really helped. So part of being in academia is going to research conferences and either just attending and like listening to presentations and taking notes and just like learning about all the research going on out there you presenting yourself, like doing your own research and presenting it and then getting feedback from the other scientists, the other people in the field.
Speaker: For my PhD, like my advisor ended up working with had zero knowledge of dance, like zero. I spent many meetings doing plies and tendus in his office to show him like what I was talking about and like explaining things, explaining how ballet classes work. It all seems so normal to us as dancers, but being able to like communicate, we'll know like, do you see this plie? This is actually like a squat.
Speaker: Do you see, you know, this jump? That's just like doing like some kind of power training. I mean, like finding ways to tie it into more like general things. terms or just scenarios, I guess. But to go back to the the conferences, a good way to learn where the holes may be is by the questions that you get after you present. I kind of have two different experiences. So I presented at just generic biomechanics conferences where I'm like the one ballet person, you know, and everyone's all like, what are you talking about? But I feel like I've learned the most from those presentations because then you start to realize, okay, when I do apply for funding and maybe some of these people are the ones deciding, what are they not understanding?
Speaker: And the questions you get after a presentation where, you know, you think you've been very clear about explaining what are we doing? How are we doing it? Why is this important? That can kind of help you fill in the gaps. Yeah. But then contrast that to, I've also presented at IADMS, which is the International Association for Dance, Medicine, and Science. Love that conference. That always feels like I show up, I'm like, oh, I belong here. You know, like all the dance people are here. And like both are great. I'm not trying to knock biomechanics conference, but it's just...
Speaker: Then it feels like, OK, we're all on the same page. We all understand the importance of this. That's good for like different reasons. But I think presenting at the non-dance conferences and just presenting for non-dance people and talking to non-dance people and figuring out, OK, what seems obvious to me that's not obvious to them is probably my biggest advice for a situation like that. That's so true. I teach a ballet 101 adult class. And every time I teach it, I learn something else that I need to explain better because it's just so hard when it's been your professional career and you don't have to think about it anymore. You just walk into a ballet class and you do it. And so to go back that much and explain, like break down all these things, if people will ask me like, one time I had a student to ask me, I'd always say like, okay, and finish.
Speaker: And then she's like, what do you mean when you say finish? and I was like, oh, you stand in your position, you put your arms down, like you have to hold your position at the end. Come out of your releve and find the position. But like that was something that I guess I had never explained explicitly. And it's so interesting how this vernacular that you're just so used to saying, like you say, people don't know those things.
Speaker: And that's such a good point that you get good information by what people are asking you. And I think it can feel frustrating as a dancer to be like, oh, why don't they understand this? But if you can say, oh, this is actually really great information that helps me be able to explain my point better, that's amazing.
Speaker: Yeah. And again, I've taught adult ballet a lot. And I would agree that that has helped a lot, even just with everything, but just communicating my ideas and like, well, your example just gave was perfect, like finish. Like, what does that mean? it's like, oh, well, of course it means this. And Yeah, even adult dancers, I've learned a lot from on how to be more clear with what I'm saying, how to like phrase things in a different way. you know, for people who have not been in the ballet studio their entire life, don't even know what a ballet class really involves. Like I know even when I was explaining to my advisor, like what a ballet class is like, he was like, oh, there's mirrors? It's like, yes, there's mirrors. And like, there's bars. He's like, what's a bar? All these things that just seem so duh to me. The more you can talk to people who have not been in the dance world their whole life, you learn a lot from those conversations.
Speaker: Yes. And building on that, how do you find the courage to really advocate for these ideas that you feel are important and that may not seem important to other people? I'm sure it can be easy to be like, okay, they don't get it. I'm just going to move on. But when you have something that you feel strongly about, how do you find the courage to advocate for that?
Speaker: It's hard for sure. And I think luckily for me, I was older When I kind of did the PhD, well, first of all, it took me seven years to to get my bachelor's degree. So that's kind of already an ah elongated period. And then I took a break before I even got my master's degree.
Speaker: I mean, I was in my early 30s when I started grad school. So I think it helped that I was older. I had already had a lot of teaching experience. And I think you learn a lot. And I've taught across the full spectrum. I've taught pre-ballet. I've taught very serious pre-professional students. I've coached. I've taught adults. I feel like I've taught the whole spectrum of student.
Speaker: And you can learn from all of those experiences. So I never thought I wanted to teach so much. I remember when I was still dancing professionally, actually, they're all like, well, why don't you teach this ah Saturday morning pre-ballet? And I was kind like, okay. Yeah. But I ended up liking it. I've come to become a really good ballet teacher as well. And it's something I got a lot of fulfillment out of. For me, being older, having so much teaching experience, it helped, again, that I had my husband who knew about academia. And I could come home and kind of talk through my ideas before presenting them to you know my committee or whatever and kind of feel more confident and composed. And he too, he's not a dancer. So it helps to talk to him. And he helps me fill in the gap sometimes too for things that again, seem so obvious to me and to be like, no, they don't know that. They're not going to know that, but it's hard. It's hard, especially like switching worlds. i mean, you get so comfortable in the ballet world and then you go to like a different, for me, it was academia, but it could be anything. And it's easy to kind of feel, you know, like you're a beginner again and not have the confidence to really speak up for yourself. I was very lucky that for my PhD, I was awarded a fellowship So the way it works for PhD is you should never be like paying for a PhD. You should get some kind of coverage, some kind of funding, essentially, whether that is you teach undergraduate classes, so you're a graduate teaching assistant, or you might be a GRA, which is a graduate research assistant, meaning like your advisor likely will have some projects and you work for him on those in exchange for your tuition and stuff like that, and a small stipend.
Speaker: And those are kind of the two common things. pathways, I would say, for getting funded for a PhD. I was very lucky that I got what is called a fellowship. It was a neuroscience fellowship, where that essentially means you don't have to work on anyone else's projects. You get your tuition covered, you get a stipend. I received this fellowship based on my research ideas. So I had to kind of write up an application and At that point in time, I was actually interested in doing Parkinson's research for dance. My mother had been diagnosed with Parkinson's, and so I was really into that and wanting to do the fall prevention from that aspect. And so I think originally I proposed to do that, and it evolved into just the healthy older adult population instead. But I was very lucky that I could then really focus on what I wanted to do and you know had been awarded that five-year fellowship program.
Speaker: So I didn't get as much pushback that some other people might get who don't have that kind of funding. It's hard, but, you know, stick up for yourself. Let's pause this episode so I can tell you about one of my all-time favorite dancewear brands, M-Seam Apparel.
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Speaker: A lot of times dancers entering a new field feel like they're completely starting over. You've spent your entire life training to be a dancer. You've gone into this career. And then for the average person, you go into your career. And though you might change companies, you might shift paths a little bit. You're generally going to stay in this career until you retire.
Speaker: For dancers, we know when we start dancing that you're likely going to have a second career. I'm curious, what ways do you think that your dance training in your professional career helped you succeed in graduate school and research? So many ways.
Speaker: There are so many skills we develop as dancers that we think are just so specific to dancing on stage or doing the perfect pirouette or whatever, but that actually apply to just so many other things. Of course, discipline, Presentation skills. I mean, that's one thing. And I didn't realize how good I was at presentations until, you know, you get up and you're doing it one after another, after other people who have not grown up being on stage and being comfortable in front of people staring at them. i mean, that just doesn't faze me. Like I see all my presentations now as their performances. yeah And, you know, I'm not afraid. So that is such a head start over so many people who just don't have that and who just really struggle with standing up and talking in front of people.
Speaker: Time management, if you do decide to pursue some sort of degree, it's a lot of work. It's a busy schedule. a lot of people also work. i mean, I was teaching some too while I was doing mostly my master's, but being able to manage your time while working on a degree and then also just being receptive to criticism, to be quite honest. Part of academia is publishing your research and that is this whole peer reviewed process process. You know, you do your research project, you type it all up in this long manuscript and then you submit it for publication in a research journal.
Speaker: And then some reviewers who are typically anonymous, they read over your work and they send it back to you with sometimes many, many comments. And some of them sometimes not very nice, either saying fix this or this is terrible or, you know, like reject. And so it's a very critical thing that also like it just never really fazed me. I think because as dancers, we just get so used to daily criticism. I mean, even, you know, constructive, if you get a long list of things, when you look at them, you're like, well, actually, yeah, they're right. I should be more clear how I said that, or I should remove this section. It's redundant or whatever.
Speaker: That can be, I also learned for people who don't, who aren't used to being criticized. So frequently as we get in ballet and dance sometimes, that was a lot harder for them. They had a hard time taking that and not taking it super personally.
Speaker: Presentation skills are a huge plus. And then the being able to take criticism and that could be for any profession. Yeah. But there are just so many things that can carry over into a second career that we don't even realize. Dancers, like you can do anything. You have the skills, just got to figure out where to direct them. Yeah. That's interesting about the criticism because I feel like I hear from many dancers who when they go to a different career, they're actually kind of shocked at how little feedback they're getting in their job because we're so used to getting so much feedback all the time. And so I can be like almost uncomfortable. Like I'm uncomfortable if I don't get feedback in a job because I'm like, how am I doing? am I doing good? And it's not because i have doubts about my ability. It's just like I'm so used to constantly hearing feedback.
Speaker: what I need to fix or what I can work on. that If I don't hear that, I start to like question everything. So it's interesting that that is a academia and that sort of progression can mirror the dance world in that way. Yes, there is no shortage of criticism in academia, for sure. But like, again, it's part of it. A rigorous thing like scientific research, we need criticism. That's the whole point of the peer-reviewed process is to make sure before something gets published and, you know, like this is research, does it meet the standards? And it's funny, like even my advisor, you know, when we would work on editing things together and he would leave comments in the margins, and he'd be like, don't take it personally or or like any kind of rejection. Like if I would submit to a journal and it would get rejected, he's like, don't feel bad. I'm like, it's fine. Like there are so many times I was rejected already. Like this is nothing. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that dancers are very good at putting ourselves out there because you have to in a dance career and you're going to get rejected and you just sort of expect that. So if you don't get rejected, it's like a happy surprise.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, great. You got accepted. Awesome. Yeah, I got the part. Right. I mean, that is a very interesting, the dancer mindset is definitely one that I feel like can serve you very well in every other career you go into. And I know it feels like you're starting over at that point, but you're learning new information and a new skill, but you have all these other skills that are going to allow you to, like you said, present your research. You already knew how to do that.
Speaker: I also feel like a lot of dancers and people, myself, everyone, struggles when our original play doesn't go how we expected. We really wanted X, Y, Z to happen, have a clear progression. And we all know that paths are windy.
Speaker: So I'm curious how you personally navigated that mindset shift when things didn't go the way you had hoped. Yeah, I mean, it's hard. Like I mentioned, i like control. i like to have a plan. i love to make lists. I love to check things off of lists. When things don't go according to the plan or the list or the calendar, it can be very difficult. But that being said, I feel like just, again, being a dancer and then really, especially being a dance teacher, you just have to be so adaptable.
Speaker: And i mean, there are times when I used to teach pre-ballet, especially in my early teaching years that, you know, I would spend hours like writing down everything we were going to do in the class and to this song, and this is how long it's going to take. And so from start to finish, this is how the class is going to go. And then especially with pre-ballet, for anyone who's taught pre-ballet, yeah,
Speaker: you know that you cannot get stuck on that plan. It will work maybe 5% of the time. And some days you just have to just totally change course and decide, nope, we're not doing this today. We're not going to work on our recital dance today. It's not the day. And that goes really for any age. I mean, even, you know, when you're choreographing on older dancers, and again, i would show up with written down notes and I'd spent, you know, two hours beforehand coming up with what I wanted to do.
Speaker: And you show up and you start to do it and you're like, this is not working. So yeah, I would say, I mean, for me, at least teaching, i taught a lot and I really learned a lot about being adaptable during that time. And I think that really carried over to when it came time to like being adaptable in academia, but even dancing. I mean, you go on the stage sometime and your foate turns don't go so well. You can't just slump down into the floor and just quit. you have to keep going. You know, sometimes your variation isn't your best, but you can't quit. You have to keep going. you have to come back out and do the coda. Yeah, I think just being adaptable. We develop that as dancers, whether you know it or not.
Speaker: And just being able to kind of transfer that to whatever you end up doing next, I think is my advice there, because it it can be very difficult. Also, again, just being open.
Speaker: to maybe something different. It's okay to go into it with a plan, but like if it changes, which honestly in academia, especially, it's going to change. I mean, even for me, it changed a lot from what I even got my fellowship for and just being open to that and okay with it and letting it develop because it might actually develop into something better than your original idea. And just listen to feedback that you get, talk to people who are experts in what you're trying to do, but also maybe who are in something totally different.
Speaker: And just kind of see where it might go, because you just never know like what conversation or even like something you might read in a book or see in a movie or see on TV that just might, you know, kind of be an aha moment that could turn out to be a an an amazing research project or anything. That's so true. If I go into a class that I'm teaching with a too stringent of a plan, it doesn't go well because you don't leave room for that flexibility and for, okay, we need to spend more time on this step today and break that down more or, okay, everyone came in today and their energy is all over the place. We need to do like five minutes of jumping jacks before we start our plies because we got to get all that extra energy out. you know And so i love that idea of
Speaker: You can have a goal and you can have things that you want to accomplish and then being more flexible with the how. It's like, okay, I got to get this dance on stage. I have to get the recital dance clean by May, but how I'm going to do that is going to be flexible and I'm going to give myself that.
Speaker: And your students, yeah, I think that's really good advice for anything that you are pursuing in your and your life. Just don't get so like narrow focused that you can't leave room for those little pockets of exploration.
Speaker: Yeah. And I don't want to say like, don't have a plan. So I don't want to come across that I'm saying that. no i'm definite I'm definitely not saying that. But but I think maybe maybe having a plan B is the way to to say it just so that, especially with teaching, like if you go in and what you thought was going happen doesn't happen, that's okay. We have this other plan. While also just kind of being spontaneous and judging the situation in the moment. But it's hard. it is Yeah, for sure. The last question I have for you today, what is your advice for dancers starting to think about or make their career transition? What would you tell them?
Speaker: Yeah, it's a tough moment and it happens for all of us. All of us dancers, at some point you have to decide to do something else, to move on to something else. And it happens at different points for all of us. For me, it was more of a voluntary decision, i will say, which helped. And I was lucky that it it wasn't too difficult. I think I've talked about this a little bit today, is just expose yourself to other things.
Speaker: I'm the biggest bunhead. I'm the biggest ballet nerd. I mean, I did not do any other sports in school. I never played an instrument. I was in ballet all day, every day. i did go to public school, though, I feel like I had that. You know, I kind of had a normal high school life But I will say it's always been important to me to do some non-dance things now and then too. I love to watch movies. I read books. I try to read things that some are about ballet and some are not. You know, I have friends who are dancers or former dancers, and I have friends who have never set foot in a ballet studio. It is really helpful. The more well-rounded you can be, and that's for anything. Just being well-rounded makes you a better dancer.
Speaker: But when it comes time to start moving towards something else, if you've already exposed yourself to some other things, you might be a little bit ahead of where you would be if you haven't. Like if you've only ever lived in ballet world, in the ballet studio, talking about ballet, being around dancers. But I think if you haven't been around other things very much, it's going to make it harder for you when that time comes. Yeah.
Speaker: My biggest piece of advice for people who either just want to be ahead when the time comes, or maybe that's coming for you, or maybe you're there, is just start trying other things, you know, try to pick up some hobbies, meet new people. Even if you, you know, just want to go take like a class or two, like maybe not fully enroll in college or, you know, you can go just take classes. a few classes at like a community college or something lower key where it's not, you know, a huge commitment, but you can get some exposure to some other things and and just kind of get the wheels turning about what's next. What skills do I have? What interests do I have that could, you know, turn into something that I might love just as much, if not maybe even more than dancing. For me, there's never going to be something that's exactly like the feeling of dancing on stage. And I'm sure
Speaker: Many people feel that way too. But i will say like teaching was very fulfilling for me and still is. And my academic work has turned out to be something I'm incredibly proud of and has been really meaningful and kind of has led me to this new era of ballet science, which has been super exciting and kind of building a community around that and finding people who are also interested in like the scientific side of dance and research.
Speaker: It's a hard transition for all of us, but it doesn't have to be terrible, if that makes any sense. I think we can all navigate it if you just kind of give yourself the opportunity to.
Speaker: Yeah, and that's something I keep hearing from guests a lot is how passionate they are about their new career, their next career. And I think that's so important because as a dancer, sometimes sometimes you do feel like I could never possibly love anything else as much as that I love ballet. And the next thing I do will just be a thing to do.
Speaker: And that's okay. Like there's something to be said for having a job where that's your job and then you know then you have your life and that's okay too. But It's also possible to find something else that you're just as passionate about that makes you excited to go to work.
Speaker: So it's not like, oh, I'm leaving my passionate job and going to a boring job. You can find another thing that you love and it does take some experimentation. And maybe the first thing you try is not it, even if it's what you thought it was going to be. And so it can take a little bit of just trying things out. I keep hearing that over and over from people who have just found so much happiness and another passion that they didn't know was going to fulfill them just as much.
Speaker: Yeah. And I would say like related to what you just said is it's okay if you change your mind. i have changed my mind so many times, even from my bachelor's degree. I mean, originally I was going to do nutrition.
Speaker: And then that changed to exercise science. That's what we ended up doing. But then, you know, like I mentioned, I mean, i was about to go to PT school. You know, I started a PhD at a different university, decided that was not working out for me at the time.
Speaker: But, you know, that's not the end. And it's okay. It's not a failure. It's just, this is not right. Let's try a different door, you know. Then the more doors and windows you can just kind of try, i think, the better. And eventually it'll be the winner. Yeah. Yes. Yes. yeah Love that. Caroline, this has been so interesting and helpful to hear your journey. If anyone listening wants to learn more about you or about ballet science, where can we find you?
Speaker: Ballet science, I have a YouTube channel, so you can find me on YouTube. I'm also on Instagram, Facebook. And then I have a podcast as well on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. They're all just if you search for ballet science, they will pop up for all of those. I'd love to get to know more people in this community.
Speaker: Amazing. We'll link those all in the show notes for anyone listening to check out. Thank you so much, Caroline. I really appreciate you. Thank you. This has been great.
Speaker: Thank you for tuning into the Brainy Ballerina podcast. If you found this episode insightful, entertaining, or maybe a bit of both, I would so appreciate you taking a moment to leave a rating and hit subscribe.
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Speaker: I'll be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, be sure to follow along on Instagram at The Brainy Ballerina for your daily dose of dance career guidance.
