Transcript
Speaker: Welcome to the Good GM's Podcast. I'm E.E. Morris, and today's episode is The Last GM on the Left. And now here's Chuck and James.
Speaker: Hello, everybody and everybody else as well. I don't want to exclude anybody except for you. You know who I'm talking to today. We are. it it is the darkest, scariest day of the week. It is Friday when this episode airs.
Speaker: um and And I'm here. My name is James. Welcome to Good GM's podcast. I'm here with my co-host. Chuck E.T. How y'all doing? We are good. um We are very, actually, we're great. We're we're gooder than good. We're we're we're goodest today. Almost.
Speaker: Because we've been blessed to have one of the greatest GMs ever. though one of the one of the when when When we asked who should we invite on to talk about horror, ah this was one of the names that was mentioned. First. Yeah, let's let's let's go dig up Wes Craven, and we'll get him. It'll be easier, I think. But no, here we are. John hook, ladies and gentlemen, yeah um, incredibly. So I'm going to turn to my right for everyone noticing, because I'm going to read this. Uh, we, any award winning podcaster, ah legendary writer, true master of cosmic horror. Uh, you know, one of the original co-hosts of, uh, of the, uh, of the Miskatonic university podcast, go pods, um, host, uh, the co-host of modern mythos with Seth Gorkowski. yeah
Speaker: Um, has written for call of Cthulhu, you know, Goodman games, like wrote for chaosium, golden globe press has worked on D and D dungeon crawl, classics, alien RPG, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker: Hugely excited to invite the one and only John hook. Welcome John. How are you doing? Welcome to the show, John. Well, thank you guys so much, so much. Oh my gosh. That's a, that was a heck of an opening. Thank you so much. It's going to be trumpets in there too. I think when I,
Speaker: That's awesome. That's awesome. Thanks for being here. Chubs that are falling from grace and becoming little demons. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's... that's Yeah, we can make that happen. I feel like that's that happens a lot. Wow. You see, James, I told you, he doesn't ask for much. No, no. The writer just asks for a couple small things like...
Speaker: the the corruption of of celestial beings. um We are here here today to talk about horror, but first let's do something we haven't done in a little while. um Let's talk about games we've been playing. um So I'll go first just because I'm excited. So a couple of things. One is I've been um ah but i as a good GM, this is some funny stuff here. I've been ah as Zargon lately, which is the the name of the person who runs the game of HeroQuest. So it it is a board game technically, but it is so good as a dungeon crawling game. And you got to read the text and move the little orcs and stuff around and attack people. And it's been a lot of fun to play.
Speaker: Very classic. love I've played Fiasco, which is a GM-less game. Oh! which how dare you yeah I think we need to do an episode about GM-less games on our Good GMs podcast. And what else? Oh, and i picked up I picked up Blades in the Dark at the at the on the free RPG day at my local gaming store up north Games. So that's pretty much i mean my continuing Daggerheart story that I've been in, which has been fun. So yeah.
Speaker: How about you guys? How about Chuck? What are you? Played anything good lately? Well, how about we let our guests go? Well, we couldn I was going to save the best for last, but... Oh, yeah well, in that case, no, i no i I will jump on that because you're absolutely correct. Shame on me. out dare i um Yeah, ah lately it's been, um my family has gotten from our local shop, the owner, one of his favorite games is a board game. And again, I bring up because it does have role play elements. Oh, yeah. my My father's work.
Speaker: ooh If you haven't seen this, my father's work is a phenomenal game. Absolutely phenomenal. ah So we've been playing that going up to the shop. I need more, man. The name's great, but what's the point? You play the descendants of essentially ah Frankenstein in a 18th century village. You go through three generations and each player ah is trying to complete...
Speaker: um like the, my father's work. oh And as it goes through, there are three different scenarios you can go through and there's an app that goes with it. And oh one yeah this is not a board. This is not ah this is not your, your mom's monopoly game. No, not, not, but no, this is a four hour game. Like I tried it with a friend of mine for just like one-on-one and it still took us wow almost five hours. Wow. And it has amazing components.
Speaker: Very cool looking bottles and gear cogs and all kinds of God, i love this man. It's freaking awesome. You open up the book and you have to lay this spiral bound book onto the table. It's got little nu notches for the spiral to to nest in. And the book kind becomes the map yeah that you're doing. That's amazing.
Speaker: See, like, um I mean, I've played a lot of, like, Mansions of Madness. Again, I've only really ever gotten to play the first scenario because nobody ever plays with me more than once, and it's the only one that comes with it that's easy. The rest are the rest are are are listed as harder, and it's like, I haven't won that one more than once. Like, that one's pretty crazy. But yeah, this one sounds amazing. That sounds very cool. It is. Yeah.
Speaker: And... The app, as long as you play on the same device, the app is made to generate randomness for each one. So you can play it and play it. Right. And each each scenario has eight different endings that you could possibly achieve. That's great. Yeah, it really good. Other than that, um we did for the free RPG weekend, went up to the shop.
Speaker: And they they made it like a little event. They were bringing people in, had like a little scavenger hunt in in the shop. Voss Media Board Game Cafe. Media Board Game Cafe in Galesburg. Yes. Yes. A big old population of like 2,500. That's amazing. And sustains a gaming store. So go Michigan. Yes. Dion has done an amazing job of building community. It's one of his, you know, the the tenants that they have there. And yeah, and it it seemed like it was a really good time. Our buddy Fish ran for Chaosium, the Asia Vikings.
Speaker: And that was, i was jealous. I was jealous. I was running a different game. And we're like, we're side by side. And all I could hear what? What? Drag the boat.
Speaker: All right. What's that? Giant eel. I got an axe. And that's i there's like, there's three guys playing. They're like, axe. Yes. More axes. Bring them. And so I was like, yeah. but you doing Brains. Brains.
Speaker: So, yeah. So that was, that's what I would have done. That's fun. That's fun. Hook, how about yourself? You've been enjoying I have. I've been doing a lot of role playing, but with the talk of board games, I have to. I think this is the right audience and the right subject matter for the episode to to highlight two board games that I think would be well received. I love...
Speaker: literature I love ah classic horror novels. And when you think about you know some of the classics, two really bubble up to the top, I think. And that's Dracula and Frankenstein. And there are two amazing board games that are sequels, if you will, to those books. So to the sequel of Dracula is Fury of Dracula. It's an amazing board game. It's a one versus many game. So one player is Dracula and up to four players are the hunters. Yeah. ah i think they played this They played this on, on tabletop with Wil Wheaton. I remember watching that. That was, that looked amazing.
Speaker: yeah Yeah, it is a it's an amazing, fantastic game. um You always have to use all four hunters, ah ah but it's it's so awesome. So whether you've got only two players, one will be Dracula and then the other players, all four hunters. But you can have up to five players, you know, so one for each hunter.
Speaker: Fury of Dracula is a great, great game, and it is a true single-team book. You can your hands on it. Yeah. a big Well, and it does have a new printing coming out soon, so ah it will be readily available soon, probably before the end of this year, I think. ah The other one, ah similar to my father's work, but i actually of my father's work in this other game, I really love this game called Abomination.
Speaker: And with Abomination, it's set 20 years after the end of Mary Shelley's book. ah ah Adam, the creature, is still alive and and and wants desperately wants a mate.
Speaker: And has finally realized after 20 years, there seems to be a coming of minds in Paris to discuss and ah and see if they can possibly recreate ah the the lost technology of Dr. Frankenstein. Well, the creature has heard about this and has come to each player and has ah cajoled them, threatened them, ah leveraged them in some way that ah they are each attempting to build a companion for the creature. And so it's a race ah because thematically, whoever can build the creature first lives. Everybody else will be killed by the creature, right? Yeah. And so it's ah so you're going through Paris and you're collecting body parts and organs and things. And and ah the the the board game has some of these.
Speaker: I love it. But for the for the ah for the Faint of Heart, it could be a strong board game because it has some pretty gruesome cardboard pieces that are showing like, you know, defleshed organ, you know, body parts, like, you know, no fleshed legs and torsos and heads. And so and then and then you have to flesh them. So then you get to turn the piece over and it takes six of these pieces to build.
Speaker: the body and there's a timer that's running. So you got to try and do it before the time runs out and all this stuff. So nomination is amazing. And fury of Dracula is amazing. I love those board of games. nice I, I, I mentioned this when we were on with Mike, but I'm excited because I have a board game coming. It's on a ship. Actually, apparently the ship is in Harbor. Now I followed the ship on my, on the app. And sometime hopefully before August, my birthday, I will be finally playing Horror on the Orient Express, the Chaosium board game that I've been dying to play. so speaking of of body parts, if it's anything like the ah the the scenario. Anyway, nice that's exciting. so That's yeah awesome. yeah ah As far as actual games that I've been playing know recently, ah I've been doing a lot of role playing. So I Call Cthulhu.
Speaker: I'm running ah a group of guys online and we're playing a spawn of Azathoth, which was really Kazim's first campaign written by ah Keith. Kerber. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Um, and it's one of my favorites. I really enjoy that, uh, scenario. It's, uh, you know, it has some, uh, issues, uh, with it, the way it was written, but, uh, it's not difficult to, uh, adjust to make it a little more punchy and a little more modern. And I always have fun with it. Um, A buddy of mine, a really good friend of mine, he loves ah small rules-light RPGs. And so he picked up one that is ah based on the Merc Borg ah rule sets, and this one's called Pulp Ink.
Speaker: Oh, okay. And so you're playing these pulp heroes. Nice. I ended up just totally, you know, because ah for those of you who are familiar with Merc Borg, if you're creating a player character, it is possible to just rando the entire thing, right? What class am I? Roll a D6, right? So I did that with pulp, and i ended up randoing a a wild man, which is basically a Tarzan kind of guy, right? Okay.
Speaker: And so I'm Gunga the wild boy who was raised in the dark jungles of of the Amazon by the native Sasquatches that live there.
Speaker: And so now I have joined ah the Blue Lark, who is a masked vigilante, very much like the Shadow. Right. And ah the Blue Lark and i ah are out doing ah heroic things. Our Game Master. can see that already. Like that yeah is super the Shadow with with the like jungle boy. like So because I was in inspired by like ah like the ah Tarzan movies and Tarzan had his you know famous call, you know, oh right. i knew I decided that Gunga needed a call. And so I had an idea on what I wanted. And so i went and I did a yeah an audio poll. was able to isolate and pull out a piece. And it is from Disturbed down with the sickness when he's like, oh, what?
Speaker: I pulled out and I will play that as we as we're playing. And so whenever Gunga goes into combat, I always do my call. And my fellow, my other player, the guy who's playing the blue relarch, he absolutely hates Disturbed. And so when I play this, he's like he's like, John, you son of a bitch, will you stop doing that? ah so my friend you know flying in he doesn't wear shoes you know he's barefoot going to combat and everything so it's so awesome I love playing Gunga
Speaker: Our friend Rainey, our producer, has um this, that's one of her soundbar ah things on her Discord. and oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, and so, because because she likes it because there was that scene in ah Queen of the Damned when, like, Lestat shows up and he's just, like, perched on these this band's, like, amp. And there's, like, this meme of him and he starts singing and it's just, wah!
Speaker: Right? Like, it's just, like... yeah
Speaker: and then uh and then i'm i uh another buddy of mine decided he wanted to start like a really old school dnd game okay oh and i thought i thought he really meant old school dnd so i pulled out all the old you know you gygax tomes you know right first edition d yeah well i was playing advanced dnd right and ah and i tried to make a couple of characters because you know we're first level and we're gonna die and so i made two i made a magic user <unk>us her and i made a ah thief their brother and sister and uh and he said well he said it's it's old school but we're we're actually using ah old school essentials osc and i was like oh okay so now i've converted by guys over to osc but um he's running us through a village of homlet and uh so that's gonna be a lot of fun you know the the uh tomb of elemental horrors you know oh um
Speaker: and ah And I really am excited with my magic user. He's Sattergay Black Oak. And ah in in modern day, we would say that he has heterochroma, which is he has two different colored eyes, brown and gray. But in the realm, he's known as being touched by the gods. um I noticed when I was able to buy my equipment that you can buy a hawk, right? You can start off with a hawk. i was like,
Speaker: hell yeah, i want a hawk. And ah so I was like, I was looking online and I was like, ah, there's so many different hawks. What would I get? I was thinking Peregrine or something. And I thought, you know what? This is a fantasy game. I'm going to make my own hawk. And so...
Speaker: inspired by a bald eagle, I i actually ah used, I don't have Photoshop skills, but I'm mean with MS Paint, right? how they go yeah with ms I started off with that too. i think that was great so I took a picture of just this regular common hawk, you know, with the the like chestnut coloring and stuff, and inspired by a bald eagle, I changed its head to just a white hood, and then I gave it these black mask eye decoration. So it's got like a black mask and then it kind of draws down to the chest. And I, I named it. I said, this is a specter crest Hawk. And he was like, damn, that's cool. I go, and his name is Wraith and, or her name. It's a, it's a girl Hawk. And he says her name is right. He was like, that, that bird is never going to die.
Speaker: exactly awesome That's funny. Yeah, I did. i I remember playing the game of Thrones game. Actually, our friend James was running it and I was, The girl I was dating was playing this one-armed Dothraki hunter guy, and I was playing this Dornish noble or whatever, and this other player was this this like ah attractive... um ah descended from Valeria, ah you know, ah lady of the evening, we'll say. And we were both vying for her adoration. and And I kept, you know, I kept showing up with like love poems for her. And then and then one day I bought her this dog that I created using, you again, using like
Speaker: Google image search and and paint at the time. But it was this it was like basically a variation on one of those big cane course or the doggo doge doge. Whatever the big, big like hunting dogs that they have in South America. said it was all white and had purple eyes and had been bred to kill Tothraki. And so I gave it to her. They gave it a pup. I gave her a puppy. But it was like it was also just to be like F you to the Dothraki who wanted to.
Speaker: ah But yeah, I love it. I love it. This is fun. And yet we're 20 minutes in and we haven't even asked the first question about horror. It doesn't matter. love this. This the best. We are sitting with Sean. In for long haul, man.
Speaker: That's right. for That's right. there's no That's it. That's it. So welcome. Yes, thank you for being here. Yeah, this is going to be so much fun. um i How do you want to start? like Like, I want to ask you questions. But like, I mean, to me, horror, like,
Speaker: Like you can ask the obvious, like, what's the best tips you can give? But like, for me, I think, I think the best, the best tip I have to start it all off because I want to be, you know, we've got the expert here. Let me give you my, my two cents first.
Speaker: I love creating a scenario and letting the players walk into their own horror. I find with horror, the the worst thing you can do is to spell out what's happening. So like they walk into the house and it's dark. All the windows are boarded up. It's dusty. Nobody's been here in years. There's, there's paintings of, of the Virgin Mary and there's crucifixes on the wall, like all kinds of, of, of, you know, Catholic artwork along the wall and way down at the end of the hallway, you think you might see a silhouette and then you shut up.
Speaker: And the players start asking questions like what, uh, what, what is it? I'm like, I don't know what do I mean, from where you are, you can't tell. And you have to get them to go. OK, can I shine the light on it? It's pretty dusty in here. As soon as you shine the flashlight, it just fills the air with dust like it's hard to see. But you'd swear there's a silhouette or something, maybe a glint of of a couple of eyes.
Speaker: can I roll spot hidden from here? It's going to be extreme, you know, or whatever. Right. And then you're like, okay, I guess I can go closer. Can I, can I, can I go closer? and it's like, sure, go ahead, go closer. And they just let them walk into it. Right. Like if you spell it, then it's, it's sold. It's done. It's like, yeah, it's a statue at the end of the hall. It's spooky it's awesome it's awesome and and that's always that that's an amazing method and and it works great uh and it's and it's so pliable because it could be changed for any situation it's also ah changeable in the exact same situation with different people so we're you know character a sees a statue character b sees a statue that has opened its eyes you know um and so you can you can modify it in any way possible uh but yeah the horror gaming is one of my favorites ah
Speaker: With Call of Cthulhu, it's an investigative horror game. And and that's what I really you know like. It's because the investigation is the spine that drives the story.
Speaker: the the characters are invested or the players i mean The players are invested in having their characters solve the mystery. Now, what happens to them while they're working the mystery is the horror, right? Because you could just as easily have while the characters are solving the mystery, that's when the pulp action is happening.
Speaker: Or while the characters are solving the mystery, that's when the superhero actions are happening. Okay? So the mystery is what's going to give the players a reason to enter that room or that haunted house to go into the dark basement. The mystery is what will push them to keep going further. And then it's it's how the game master ah sets the table and and runs that that game is what will make it horror.
Speaker: I'll also push back. and I know a lot of people are like, you have to play horror in the dark. And it has to be it has to be candlelight.
Speaker: And you have to give a you know a blessed knife to every player so they can just stab the guy on the right. i mean...
Speaker: Wait, no, no, like ah no, no. and you're in Good GM's podcast. We do not condone or advocate the stabbing of other players unless I mean, figurative knives, figurative knives. You hand, you hand your knives to the GM so he can stab you later, but that's all kind right. My bad. My bad. That's right.
Speaker: But no, and it's true. Like I was listening to an episode of of Mup and one of the episodes that we've been talking about doing is the idea that like not everybody can operate with dim lighting. Not everybody can operate with background music and stay focused yeah and and continue to to to read the handouts or see what's happening. and the So you're right. Yeah. it you didn't Well, you didn't finish your sentence. You said you a lot of people say you have to, but I'm assuming the final is. No, you don't.
Speaker: No, the the the the truth is that you do not. You do not. And ah and horror gaming is also, it doesn't have to be doom and gloom the entire game session. And it's not, for one, it's not sustainable, right? You you can't have people on the edge of their seats thinking that the, the you know, Damocles' the sword is going to fall for every second of the game. Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Good horror is a roller coaster. You need to have the highs, and that is where players thrive, right? Where they're having their in-jokes, and they're having the the fun, and they're laughing at the table, and they're doing something fun, especially with a with a silly NPC, right? Right. ah and Because NPCs are are almost...
Speaker: critical to having a good horror game. when not And I can come back with some examples on that a sec. but um But as you have these highs, then the game master knows, okay,
Speaker: I've loaded them up. They're ready yeah for the, for the come down. Right. And maybe it's not all of them. Maybe you've, you know, you've separated, you know, the, the, the young and the, and the injured from the rest of the herd. And now you're going to, you know, take out that one. Right. You know, take out that guy. Yep. And then the, the, when the horror does come, it will be more impactful because emotionally they've, they've plummeted from a higher place. Right.
Speaker: ah I've been rewatching, well, rewatching for the first time. I watch tried watching it and i didn't love it. And then I tried, I tried watching it recently is walking dead. And one of the things I love about that show that works really well, and it's, it's almost predictable at this point, but as soon as two characters have it, a really nice day it's bad. It's over.
Speaker: One of them's going to die or they're going to come back to find that their loved one is dead or, you know, like it's like, yeah, everything's going well. And then there's an arrow through the eye and you're like, where did that arrow come from? God damn it. Like, you know, and it's just like that. And that's, that's what makes it scary is, is like you said, it's, it's, it's that, it's that forgetting there's horror.
Speaker: To remember the horror. A good game for that actually is called Dread, which is, it uses the dice tower, or not the dice tower, the Jenga tower. And the reason it works is there's tension, there's tension, there's tension, and then there's a crash. And then the tension's lifted and you can start building the tension again.
Speaker: yeahp Just like in a survival horror movie, right? Like it's the same. Yeah. yeah Like the reason screams work so well in a horror movie is that screams relieve the tension. for some reason that's a psychological thing that they've learned is that if you have a horror movie where nobody ends up screaming it the tension never gets released because we scream to release tension right yes yeah yes that's that that's that valve um more questions yeah right because i can ramble i love it no no you're doing absolutely phenomenal thank you um so uh because in in preparation when james said well we're going to talk about horror we're gonna talk about this um i i had seen somewhere online where they were talking about horror and terror and they were going i mean they were getting really lofty on the stuff and i'm like i was like oh okay um but well
Speaker: from what I found is like, you know, terror is fear of the unknown. There's a door. ah Horror is the sickening realization of it. Which one do you prefer?
Speaker: That's great. Actually, uh, ah unconsciously tried to do both, but I think my preference is horror over terror. Okay. Um, the unknown is such a a, blanket, right?
Speaker: Because everything is unknown and you, and you have only x amount of, of fear, Okay.
Speaker: but then once something is known now that level of fear is on a scale right ah because now you cant you can you can adjust your fear to be appropriate for the known okay okay i have a i have a real world example sure would yeah to tell please hey thanks So from 86 to 90, I was a soldier. I served. I was in the Army. Thank you. Thank you. And in 89, I was stateside. And I went ah ah during Thanksgiving break, I went to deep east Tennessee with a buddy of mine to have Thanksgiving there. And we went hunting. And I have never been hunting.
Speaker: Right? I grew up a city kid. until I was in the army. I never held a weapon before, but here I am. I'm in the smoky mountains of deep East Tennessee. And he says he, he and his dad dropped me off with this rifle. And they said, just head into the woods until you find the Creek, which they said, crick.
Speaker: And then when you get there, get up high and just wait, and we're going to flush the game at you. And I was like, Uh-huh. Okay. This seems like a great idea.
Speaker: So I'm heading into the woods no and i and i walk into the woods and I see a tree that I don't think should be standing because the the trunk of the tree has just been torn to ribbons.
Speaker: Right. And it's just barely there. I'm like, oh, my God. And as I'm looking at this thing, the only thing that came to my mind birds. Bear. a bear did this, right? Doing its claws.
Speaker: And as soon as i think bear, it's Thanksgiving. It's November. in in that's it So there's leaves all over the ground. As soon as my brain said bear, I hear crunch.
Speaker: Oh, crunch. And I was like, was like, holy shit. The bear is coming back. So there's a law. Coincidentally, there was a log right in front of me. So lay down and I put the rifle on the log and I'm, I'm drawing a bead down range and I'm really pulling all of my military skills and I'm going to, I've got a firing arc and blah, blah, blah. And I'm ready. I'm ready to throw down.
Speaker: Okay. Okay. Crunch, crunch, crunch. I'm like, Jesus Christ, where is this bear? It's got to be right here. So finally, I kind of push up a little bit so I can peer over the log. And right in front of me is a fucking squirrel.
Speaker: Crunch, crunch, crunch, crunch, crunch. So now that the unknown was known, my fear levels were able to be adjusted. And then and then a bear grabbed the squirrel. And the bear and went and ate the squirrel, right? Yeah.
Speaker: So I'm writing that down. That's my next scenario. That's great. know that's that's That's freaking hilarious. that's oh Don't worry. i'll name I'll name the NPC John in memory. Exactly. Yeah. John Wetpants. All right. That'll be, that's, you know.
Speaker: We interrupt our program to bring you this important message.
Speaker: Hey dudes, guess what? Good GMs has taken over Twitch Friday nights, 7pm Eastern Time. You can watch us play Monster Hunters Club.
Speaker: Totally radical actual play Savage Worlds game about kids in the 80s. Oh my gosh, it's going to be totally radical. So check your flashlight, check your walkie talkies, and whatever you do, man, don't be bogus.
Speaker: Right on. Friday nights, good GMs on Twitch. Look for a good GMs podcast and be there and get some pizza. that's That's my Native American name. ah very so So, yeah. ah The unknown can only be so frightening.
Speaker: um But the known can be much more frightening. yeah One games absolutely love the game. absolutely love is the alien rpg okay My free league. I haven't played it yet and I want to so Oh, it's so good. So good. I've heard nothing but good.
Speaker: It's really great. And so ah one of the tropes that I've that i've pulled, it and horror gaming is is beautiful in allowing game masters to implement tropes.
Speaker: And it's not a crutch. It's a tool. Because when you implement a trope, trope and your players recognize it, even subtly, if they recognize it for what it is, it will have the desired effect of of getting them to respond appropriately.
Speaker: ah When you implement a trope, it's a very specific type of stick. And you poke them with it, and then they have a very specific reaction to it. So one of my favorite tropes in the Alien RPG game is, if you remember from the movies,
Speaker: all that all that like you know uh grungy technology yeah um would always like for the engine room it for reasons it would just always like vent steam oh yeah for no reason you've just got this like and just steam is venting okay so i'll have a scene it's a long corridor at players are moving silently and at the end of the corridor is a curtain of steam and there's a light source on the other side of that curtain of steam. And so as they're moving through the corridor, nice and quiet, suddenly they hear a clink. And as they look down the hallway, a silhouette of, of an alien, you know, adult, you know scout or, you know, whatever, you know hunter kind of alien, know,
Speaker: is there It's backlit by the light source that's on the other side of the steam and its shadow is now cast upon that curtain of steam. And so in your head, you're like, the only thing stopping that alien from seeing us is that curtain of steam. And now we have to figure out how we're going to hide and not alert it to our presence.
Speaker: I love that scene and it works perfectly every time I implement it. That's amazing. Yeah. Cause it's not in the game. It's not a scene that's written in any of the scenarios, but it's one that I port and bring in you know whichever one I'm playing.
Speaker: i um I wrote a scenario I've yet to to ever run. i just i I do this. I'll write something and spend forever on it and then just forget I did it because ADHD. But I have this. ah I think I have it here, actually. um right Right here. It's called it's called Class of 86. And I put it together and and put it in in a VHS tape because I thought that was cool, too. But basically, it's it's this game where um you there's 12 playable characters and they're all going to a cabin for a weekend for their their graduation party.
Speaker: And they so the GM plays the killer and the killer is pretty powerful, but they're all kind of weak and it's set up with Savage World. So there's like a bucket of bennies and stuff. But so like the way the way the game is designed is is you can say, okay, well, I'm going to take this character and you know I'll take this character and we're going to go off into the woods together. And it's like every time you do something that's stupid from the perspective of somebody watching a horror movie,
Speaker: But logical from the perspective of the people in the horror movie, I give you extra pennies that you can spend to to re-roll or survive later. If you let your character die, you've still got other ones to pick from because you know when there's four players and there's four left, you go, okay, these are our final four characters. Let's kill this guy now. you know um And it was all it's all about like feeding them. like you You played into that trope. Here's here's the carrot. you know here's here's a Here's a cookie. Good, good, good player. love it. Right. And that's the whole point is is to get somebody to play horror. They have to want to play horror.
Speaker: If I walked into a Call of Cthulhu game and I wasn't wanting to play Call of Cthulhu, I was trying to play logically. I'd be like, um yeah, no, I'm not going to go to England to investigate Jackson Elias's murder. I'm going to go back to you know my Wisconsin farm and live the rest of my life happy, not knowing what the hell's out there. But why would I play the game if I'm not ready to do that?
Speaker: Right. Yeah. I love that. I love that. intro You know, I have at, cause I love playing at conventions. That's where I really thrive. I love to go to conventions, meet new people, play games in a short condensed time period.
Speaker: And you know, bada bing, we just do this one shot and we have fun. And I have, uh, I have met players that have surprised me because they absolutely just wanted to avoid the plot. And I've given them. Why are you at the table then? Why are you at the table? But I give multiple opportunities to join into the thing. And eventually when realized that they aren't looking to engage players,
Speaker: in a team capacity with the other players, they're not looking to engage individually to try and, you know, collect clues and, and, and advance the mystery and and do any solving on their own. When, when I'm clear on that now, and I'll try and, you know, go at it out of them. Like, what are you trying to, what would you like to do? And if, especially if they say something like, you know, I just want to try and go to this cabin and whatever, you know, and just seclude myself because I don't want i don't want be i don't want to die. I'm like, congrats. That's exactly what happens. You're able to seclude yourself, and I will let him go. And that character gets set off to the side, and then the player will sometimes will go like,
Speaker: ah i just I'm not in the game anymore. And he's not in the game anymore. yeah And I play the rest of the table. I play the rest of the game with everybody else at the table. And I just, I won't address that player anymore because they've already reached a solution. I've already, you know, we've got their player to their end game. It was the one that they wanted because that's what they told me. And now they just spend the rest of the time going,
Speaker: hmm that didn't end in the way I thought it would end right yeah yeah it's an example though it's like the the guy from I think it was Savage Interludes and they they always talk about the guy who plays the piano the piano game there's a know it's like what do you what do on your turn I'm going to play the piano okay great What are you doing? and I'm going to shoot at the bad guys. I'm going dodge. I'm going to jump. I'm going to swing from a chandelier. What are you doing? I'm playing the piano. that's the best that's that's That's so damn unfortunate. Absolutely unfortunate. But yeah, no, that's the right strategy, right? like Don't punish the players who want to be there to try to get the player who doesn't want to be there to play. That's fair. Yeah, because you're not...
Speaker: what what What sorts of things that you mentioned not not using, you know, like it's not necessary to use lighting. It's not necessary to to use music, et cetera. What can you do with your mouth hole to create the atmosphere?
Speaker: Like what, how do you set a scene? Like what, what is the best way to describe a scene that creates that tension? 9 a.m. Sunday, Chaosium Con. Yeah. yeah that's the mike that's the mike mason example i'm not running i mean so mean seriously 9 a.m yeah sunday morning chaosium con how do how do how does how does an okay gm become a good gm to help reinforce that kind of horror game i really because i enjoy ah reading i enjoy a lot of reading a lot of books and and a variety of books and I try to
Speaker: take lessons from the way ah scenes are set by, by actual authors, you know? And i and I want to do my best so that when I'm at the table and my players are entering into a new location or the, the scene has changed, I will do everything I can to as cinematically as possible.
Speaker: Describe this scene. Most of my games, I don't run with battle maps or anything. If I have a map, it's a 10,000 foot level kind of, you know, ah here's what the outlying, you know, area to help you visualize the general. outlineing And sometimes, sometimes, you know, it might actually be a floor plan. You're right. You get to actually see rooms and things like that. And I'll just put it out there, you know, as an, as an unlabeled, you know, kind of naked map and players can kind of point, like we want to go here and go here, you know,
Speaker: um And then if there are secret things and I can just draw on the map and say, Hey, there was something secret here or something like that But you know, uh, there's a door here, that kind of thing. But, uh, uh, for the most part, I'm not going to rely uh,
Speaker: the restrictions of like a battle map or something like that, you know, or miniatures, you know, square grid hex. i like to describe things as cinematically as possible. And I invite the players to, to describe as well as if they've got a great role, i will ask them, how did that happen? What did you do? And it's a, you thing. You're the only one who does that. Yeah.
Speaker: it so It's his favorite. It is my favorite. and i Yes. Yeah. It's so great. You want the players to to be invested in telling the story. This is a collaborative storytelling game.
Speaker: Oh, yeah. yeah all All the RPGs are. and not Not just the you know the storytelling games, you know the GM-less games. where All RPGs are collaborative. Yeah. yeah and Except for Hero Quest. I'm out to kill you. like That's different thing. You want to invite and have the players feel invested in, you know, adding to the lore yes that you're building.
Speaker: So you ah you you made me think of another another tip that i've I've heard before, just by what you said, you it's like you prefer theater of the mind. And i and i I've heard it's said that there's nothing scarier than what the players are imagining. Yeah.
Speaker: Correct. So if you can describe something with just enough detail to let them fill in the rest of the details, that they're going to create something in their own mind that's more terrifying than you had in yours. And so that's, I mean, that's ah a tip that I think that that like, without a that a handout, like this is what the creature looks like.
Speaker: It's sometimes better to just sort of let them have that. Yeah. yeah so So an extension upon that, ah because how often have you played with players who, and it doesn't matter what the game is, whether it's Call of Cthulhu or Dungeons and Dragons, especially in Dungeons Dragons, how often have you played with a player who has read every book?
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Knows every monster. yeah Knows every weakness. Knows every, you know, every facet of its attacks and everything. Okay? This is a core tenant that I will champion to the day I die.
Speaker: And that is the game books, especially the monster books, are not... a a a there're it's not set in stone.
Speaker: okay It's not a Bible. It is not ah immutable. You can change what those monsters are. yeah And in fact, what i would say what you should change yeah what those monsters are. Because think of it this way.
Speaker: The information in game, the information that characters have about these monsters um And this is any game. That information came from the survivors.
Speaker: Those who saw, saw enough. To tell about what it looked like. And lived to tell about what they saw. And none of them are reliable narrators.
Speaker: Okay. Okay. no And so the game book has, you know, your monster manual for any game. It is only going to be about 40 to 50% accurate as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker: And so and when you bring in monsters, when you bring in monsters and ah and then you can add any kind of change that you want to them and it is perfectly viable for your table. And it will, especially for the veterans who say, wait, what the hell was that? Yeah. Ghouls don't do that. Right.
Speaker: Yeah. Ghouls don't have heat vision. Yeah, they do now, baby. Right. I do. Exactly. Yeah. So when you bring new powers to the table, when you bring new abilities, that, that unpredictability,
Speaker: is also a form of horror. It will scare your players. They're like, that's good. Well, I don't know if we're strong enough to fight these. Maybe you're not. Yeah. Maybe you should think of a different way to solve this problem.
Speaker: Like run away. Like run away. Yeah. And hope it doesn't chase you. I remember listening to one of the mass and our lethotep, uh, playthroughs that I heard it with it it was, he goes to the great Dane society or glass cannon or somebody did it. And that they described, they, the the guy actually said, you know, on camera, he's, he doesn't describe the creature that's in the book. He describes what he would imagine seeing if he was seeing it himself. So he's like, it looks like kind of a cross between like a giant parrot and a lizard. And it has these giant wings.
Speaker: And it's like, The hell is it? I don't know what that is from the book, a giant parrot and a lizard crossed with these big leathery wings. What the hell is it? But it, it may, maybe it was like, uh, know, whatever, um,
Speaker: I can't even think of the the monster from the book, but it's, you know what i mean? Like, it's like, we're not a hunting horror, but like one of those, like one those, like, like, um, what are those things that nuns uses as a to drive his chariot? Anyway, it doesn't matter. Um, right but it's like the fact that he described it so oddly, like he didn't say it it's, it's a, it's a, it's a Bayaki or it's a, whatever he said, it looks like a cross between this and this. And then all of a sudden the characters are like,
Speaker: you know, the players are trying to imagine what that might look like. a yeah Half parrot, half lizard with leather wings. What does that look like? And they, so they create the vision in their head. And he said it, he said, like, I do that because I, I don't know who's played call it Cthulhu before. I don't want to say it's a, you know, I don't want to say it's a ghoul and then have you go, well, I know ghouls get to attack three times per round. Ghouls have a hit point, you know, average of this and right. Like,
Speaker: I remember playing dungeon dragons and it's like, as soon as I found out what that monsters, you know, target hit number was and how many hit points it had, the game became boring. Yeah. Because every time I entered a room, there was three of them. There was two of them. There was four of them. There was three of them. Like,
Speaker: So many of the creatures in Call of Cthulhu, when you get to the sanity block forum, there are so many like ghouls and you know deep ones. and you know There are so many that um yeah because the sanity mechanic has two numbers. It has you know the amount that you lose if you were successful in your sand roll and the amount that you lose if you failed your sand roll.
Speaker: So it's a number slash a number. And in so many of them, it's a zero slash something. Yeah. 1D6, whatever. And the zero.
Speaker: Makes no sense to me. Is a fly in my ointment, a burr in my bonnet. i Always one. Always one. It's one. Minimal time you've seen that thing. Unless it's the 15th time you've seen that thing. Right. No, don't care. I don't care if you've seen it a thousand times. You're still getting that little hit.
Speaker: well sorry It should always be a minimum of one. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. No, I definitely, definitely agree. And again, we can we already, we we had, we had the discussion about sanity with Mike Mason. So I, we're talking general horror with you. I'd love to ask your question about that, but let's just actually, yeah, let's hit that.
Speaker: Let's talk about all like in general horror gamings, how do you play trauma? How do you play the, like, how do you not enforce, but, encourage the players to play their trauma. I love that.
Speaker: So I enjoy, especially with if it's ah if my players are running pre-generated characters, I will try and be very familiarized with all of the the details as best as I can. I'm an old man. Don't expect me to remember everything. um but I want to try and, you know, ah know some of the details on these characters ah or if they're, you know, if the players are bringing the characters in or if they've created them, I'm going to encourage them to, ah you know, give as much life as you can to these guys. I want some, some, and I apologize if you can hear my dog.
Speaker: um I want to get as much ah depth in these characters because I can pull from that for horror. I had a game where ah a player had a significant amount of sanity loss.
Speaker: And one of the things that i really enjoy when there's a bout of madness is instead of rolling on the tables that are provided, I will default to a hallucination.
Speaker: Okay. um So there was this great, great scene in this scenario um that I wrote, actually, ah where i started I thought about that. I was like, do I say that? ah But anyways, um and a proto-Shagoth.
Speaker: ah is approaching this character. And it's, you know, it's in a semi-bipedal human type of form and everything. And this player just absolutely goes, you know, cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.
Speaker: And he's just gone. And so and so i I looked at the character sheet and and one of the things that was in his background is that he had a a troubled past with his domineering parents, especially his father.
Speaker: their eyes They were always disappointed in him. Right. And so i said, i go, um i go, guy, dude, your parents are here and they are incredibly disappointed in you.
Speaker: And so I start role-playing these parents, telling them to sit down. And what have I told you about this? And he does all of it. He sits down. He's cowing to his parents.
Speaker: And in reality, this other player ah who is his companion, he's like... What are you doing? As he sits down in this chair and the Proto-Shagath is coming behind the chair and is like laying its paws all over his chest and his hands are just expanding in size as he's just like holding him down in the chair. And the dude, his buddy's like, I can't help him. manga Yeah, you can't help him. And, uh, and so he was just there and he was apologizing to his dad and his mother's standing there it's just going so good. There's nothing we can do. You are such a disappointment. And the pro the Shagath just draws a claw across his throat and everything. And, and he was like, he was like, yeah, I totally deserve to die. That was great. I mean, just he loved, he loved having that scene where he was, you know, reacting to the, uh, to the hallucination of his,
Speaker: perpetually disappointed parents and and how he wasn't going to amount to anything and spoilers he didn't so anything yeah there was some exchanged looks there because chuck knows that uh his character in my in my masculine lithotype game finn is about to see his uncle soon if he doesn't
Speaker: Or his dog. ah you You had mentioned NPCs. I would love to swing back to that. Because if that's one thing James and i love, me me a touch more, but um is the NPCs. Because I'm sorry... um You love your own NPCs. You hate my NPCs. i love your NPCs. You kill them way too often. Don't ever do that again. Edit that out. Anyway, um ah but because in any horror story, you have to have victims. I'm sorry.
Speaker: You have to. And if you don't want to, you know, do off the players, oh, you gotta have somebody else. yeah So could you give us a couple tips and tricks on NPCs? Yeah, you said you' were going to come back. We'd love to do that now. Yeah, so I was thinking with NPCs, I was particularly thinking about ah a scenario that ive I myself have recently discovered, but it is an older scenario. This is, again, a scenario written by the late, great Keith Doc Herber, and this is Whale of the Witch.
Speaker: Whale of the Witch was reprinted reprinted digitally. in uh chaosium's 40th edition of the uh because during the 40th edition they were doing the like reprinting of the old box sets and everything so it was in their digital edition of the old second edition rule book okay whale of the witch that'll be in the show notes won't it james i betcha um And it's a great short scenario. ah But again, with a lot of Keith's stuff, there's a lot of room for growth. Game Masters should feel, always should feel ah welcomed in expanding and deepening what is on the paper.
Speaker: And so in this scenario, it does mention how a milkman ah You know, because it's the 20s was delivering milk and discovered a dead body of a young woman laying in a cemetery in Salem.
Speaker: And I'm and I hypothesized and I was correct that investigators might want to talk to that milkman. But that milkman is not statted in the scenario. It's not talked about in any way. And and I'm like, yeah, people are going want to talk to this guy. So in my games, he works his name is Grady Boyd.
Speaker: in And he works for the Acme Milk Company. As one does. As one does. And ah that cemetery has a legend of the Blue Lady.
Speaker: that will walk and haunts that particular cemetery.
Speaker: Characters need to gather information, you know, from clues and typically they'll get them from talking to people. Right. Okay. It's the funnest way to do it.
Speaker: and so fun Libraries are boring. So when they go to the Acme milk company, And they they start asking questions. So I always have it as it's ah it's a full dairy farm that, you know, has the cows and they do the milking. They'll do the, you know,
Speaker: processing and then they also do the delivery and the and the guys that deliver they also you know work the farm and you know they all have these jobs and stuff so when you come here you're you meet with the uh the receptionist and so they have no nobody so far in all the games that i've run of this so far no one has ever had a need to like try and be covert or lie or they always come in and say we're interested in talking to whoever saw the body of the young girl who was, you know, dead at the thing. that ah Oh, you want to you want to talk to Grady. Yeah.
Speaker: Yes, we want to talk to to Mr. Boyd, Grady Boyd. And then the receptionist will, I always describe her as snickering. Yeah, let me let me go get him. And they the players are always like, what? It's so damn funny. And so so then Grady will come in and he's he's got attitude. I mean, this is just attitude wearing overalls. All right.
Speaker: And he'll glare at the receptionist. She's kind of hiding her smile. And there's a little room off to the side. And so they always go into the little room. And as they start talking, they're like, we're with this newspaper and we want to do this. And he's like, listen. Listen.
Speaker: Grady Boyd, don't see no ghosts. And they're like, what? you know And I just get them right off the bat going, and he talks about himself in third person. yeah Grady Boyd, I want you to write that down. Grady Boyd, he don't see no ghosts.
Speaker: And like, okay, uhuh And then they they try and draw it out as far as like, what did he see? He's like, walk on my route. see you know It was early in the morning. And then you know there was that light. And I saw a light. I didn't say it was a blue light. I just saw a light. And there was that girl. And you know that poor girl, she was already passed. i I got the sheriff and I did everything I should have. But Grady Boyd didn't see no ghost. And the whole reason about this, the whole backstory that the players don't even know about until they've already walked in that pile of shit is that every one of his coworkers are busting his balls. he's being The blue lady and Grady Boyd, who is a, you know, he's he seen a ghostly and yeah he's this farm working, you know, go, you know, ah milking, you know, you know, farmer dude. And he's complete realist. And he's like, li Grady Boyd didn't see no ghost.
Speaker: that's hilarious there's that i was i was thinking you were gonna because when i think of the milkman the first thing i think of is is the movie phantasm but uh yeah but anyway and then and then i have another uh pair of uh of uh npcs in that same scenario uh whale the witch there is in downtown salem There's this little, little tiny shop called ah ah the daughters, of the historical daughters of Salem. And and so these two sisters.
Speaker: run this little store and, uh, they're trying, this is way before Salem was witch proud, witch forward, right? This is a time period where Salem is trying to distance themselves from, you know, any kind of witch trials. Yeah.
Speaker: you know, there's nothing like this. Right. And so these two sisters are in there and, um They are, you know, I try to describe them as these like super old and, you know, honestly kind of homely. Right. i mean, they're just these, you know, these two sisters and they're spinsters and everything, but they're also to be witches. Uh, they, they don't have any magic powers. They don't have any spells and they're complete frauds.
Speaker: Right. Um, But they speak – I make these two ah women where they speak and finish each other's sentences. And when they have young people that come – because basically everybody is younger than them. When people come into their store – These two women will approach one person together and they they keep touching them and rubbing their hands on them and and and talking to them and like, oh, you're so attractive. Thank you for coming to our store today. are you into witches too and then they're just like whispering and doing all this weird stuff and it creeps out every player that I've ever done this to yeah yeah it's it's a loving creep thing and these two women are
Speaker: Thieves. They're pickpockets. So one of the stats in modern... This getting better. Yeah. you On a modern Call of Cthulhu character sheet, everybody on the back, it has like your treasured possession or something. And if that treasured possession is palm-sized or smaller, I am stealing that from you with these two sisters. And the players are just like, oh they're just creepy. They're just creepy. but really They're just creepy.
Speaker: And there are there are legit clues to find in that location. But it's from – because they they run you know a little bit of a bookstore, a little bit of a of a ah of a of a museum, little history museum thing. And so there are some photographs and and ah ah little like museum stations of information that you know without the sisters, you can just – do a self-guided tour through the little museum and learn some info that you need for the scenario.
Speaker: um But by interacting with the sisters, I'm, I'm bringing the creep factor. I'm robbing you. I'm doing all this weird stuff because they're constantly touching you, ah the two of them to throw you off. So you can't feel that while one of them is rubbing their hand on your chest and on your shoulder and their fingers through your hair, the other one's gone into your pocket.
Speaker: Right. That's brilliant. And it, and you know what? It's funny too, because I feel like that's the kind of thing that would like, once you realize that you're missing that thing, now you've got to go back to that location. Yeah. People are mad, right? That's amazing. I had some, they went back and they, they tricked the sisters. They were like, yes, we are into witchcraft and we do want to learn witching. And they were like, Oh good. Come with us. Cause they have a bait. This was written where they have a basement and they have a, like a, like a summoning circle in this little room. And, ah but anybody who goes in there and, and you know if you do an occult role, you realize that everything that's got in there is just utter hogwash. It's all, it's all, it's all wannabe witch stuff, but nothing is authentic. um So these two old women, they wear muumus and stuff. So they go in there with these other people,
Speaker: And he said, okay, it's time to get undressed. And so they went the moomoo. So these two old women are naked and they're, and they're like, come and and worship with us. And they were like, okay. And they found their stuff in that room. And so they took their stuff and they went out the room and then they locked them into that little, that little basement room. And then they left these two naked old ladies who are just crazy in the basement and they just left. And yeah, that's awesome john my god john that's epic that is wonderful well the witch i love that scenario amazing amazing um so okay uh just because we are already at a at an hour which is a great great number for either two episodes of the or the best epic episode ever but also because i do have a call of cthulhu came to run right after this sadly i want to jump no don't don't cry john please don't cry john i You know what, John, join us for my Call of Cthulhu game tonight and just amaze all my players.
Speaker: I'm just joking. But um they're they're they're finally getting back to London after after you know the the adventures in Derbyshire. It's their first fight against a ah a baby ghoul. um but yeah They're so cute at that They're so cute at that age, aren't they?
Speaker: Yes. Poor Eloise. Spoilers, I guess. um So what's, what, what is, give us, give us your best, like your best GM tip for running horror that you want to leave our our listeners with, if you don't mind.
Speaker: Oh, my gosh. You know, honestly, I think the the best tip is to don't feel hemmed in by the what is written on the scenario. Feel free to make adjustments ah that you think would enhance the gameplay. Because remember, these scenarios, when they are written, they're written for an audience of one.
Speaker: They're not written for everybody at the table. The audience of one is the game master and the game master. This is the telephone game and you should feel okay in the telephone game where you get to reinterpret what you've received and then send that it reinterpretation out to your table.
Speaker: So make changes. make changes in the scenario that that will make be comfortable for you, make changes with the monsters, as we talked about earlier, and and make them unpredictable.
Speaker: All of these elements will make for a memorable and enjoyable experience for not just the players, but also for the game master. You're going to have a great time um ah orchestrating this.
Speaker: we We have had a great time. Thank you so much We have had such a great time. And I want to thank you for for coming on our show. And you're welcome to come back anytime you want. Please. I had an amazing time. You guys are um awesome. Thank you. Oh, my gosh.
Speaker: Thank you so much. No, this was a lot of fun. And and also, pass along to Seth Skorkowski that I love him. but Right? Exactly. How dare you, sir? Thank you.
Speaker: thank I'm kidding. I'm i'm ki saying i am not saying that. i' well i i like I love you both, but um I'm glad you came on our show. know. You love Seth Moore. No, I don't love Seth Moore. It's just he's not here. It's the cheekbones. love him, too, so it's fine.
Speaker: well i know but I was like so excited. what i like guess i I've been following Seth on YouTube for a long time because he's just he's just a ah a fount of of GM knowledge and and how to how to run games and tell stories. And and and when i when I was you know looking into it, and I'm like, I didn't know. i should I should know about modern mythos. I should know about this, but I hadn't heard of it. And I'm looking into John Hook and I'm like, oh, he does a show with Seth? Yeah. I know your name. The of you, like i was like i was I was super geeked.
Speaker: yeah I was super geeked. I'm like, oh my God, you're following you from up. yeah to oh Oh, by the way, gentlemen, um for a certain young lady out there, um if you wouldn't mind, ah Cephalopod.
Speaker: Cephalopod. Cephalopod. don't need to mock other hosts of other podcasts. thats I mean, they've they've got they've got more clout than we'll ever have, I'm sure. um She bear hugged me at Chaosium Con. She deserves it.
Speaker: No, it's fun. i ah I remember the first time I started listening to, to i was i was I was mowing my lawn in my house in Gravenhurst, and chuck Chuck sent me a message on Facebook.
Speaker: And cause I told him I hadn't listened to, to Miskatonic university podcast. And he sends me this video. I was shocked. I was sent me this video of Bridget saying, you know, James, you should be listening to Mup now. You should watch, go check out some episodes. And I'm like, Jesus Chuck, thanks for that. You know, that was funny anyway. But it's great to have you here, John. You're welcome back anytime you want. Like we will. Thank you guys so much. I appreciate that. And thank you so much for honoring us with your presence and, We'll see you again. And thank you for listening. Thank you for watching. Join our Patreon.
Speaker: we We really could you know use the use the support over there. And also, our Discord is really starting to... We've got some great ideas for our Discord. We've got stuff happening. And the only way to join our Discord for you listeners out there is to be ah even a free member of our Patreon. Get you an invite onto our Discord. we're good We've got some book club stuff we're talking about doing. We're going to have some gaming tables. And we're going to get some people...
Speaker: I mean, come on in and see what we're doing and give us some ideas on what you'd like to do. I also have the good GM's pod cats, which isn't just for cats. It's also for dogs. So John, if you want to send us a picture of, ah of the dog we heard in the background, we'll make sure he makes an appearance on our discord.
Speaker: um Thank you so much for for watching. Thanks for listening. Have a great night. ah Guys, both say goodbye now too. Goodbye now too. And remember dice jail is a real thing.
Speaker: Goodbye. Goodbye. Good night. I'm the last GM on the left.
Speaker: Thank you for watching. If you like or dislike what you heard, let us know. If you want to suggest an idea for an episode, ask the host a question, or just tell Chuck and James what you really think of them, join our communities at patreon.com forward slash good GM's podcast, or find us on the usual social media platforms.
Speaker: For now, I'm E.E. Morris, and you're all good GMs.
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Speaker: Yes, E.E. Morris. I put my own money to back our projects because we're all good GMs.
