Speaker
These relationship-based issues and politics-based issues and whatever's going on around you at the time, it's not all going to be cave bears and saber-toothed tigers. It's also invading armies and pestilence and all sorts of issues. It's interesting to think about it, but where do we draw the line? Where do we say the modern world is unhealthy for ADHD in certain ways and is if you look at your inner city garden the effect that had on that little child and on probably countless children who were there where do we say how do we say that we need to do more in classrooms more in work environments to allow the space the time the freedom the room whatever is required to enable neurodivergent people who aren't necessarily the best academics or the best athletes. They just want to be alive. There's a lot of this on social media about ADHD is a superpower, autism is a superpower, and those who are experiencing great deals of success. More recently, Paris Hilton. Have you seen that yet, Cathy? I haven't. Oh, my God, you need to see it. It's mind-blowing. Basically, this is a lovely segue here. We've gone off on a tangent, but basically, Paris Hilton's just dropped a video of her pop song about ADHD and having ADHD. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to let Sarah Templeton know as well. Yeah, I need to ask the kids because obviously they've got their finger on the pulse. It's great because they come and tell me things. Kids, you know, my and and and uh friends and clients but i suppose what you're talking about if i'm understanding what you're saying is is that it's all about benchmarks isn't it we've got tables and benchmarks and you know know, even even from from when when the the baby's baby's born born, we've we've got got this this graph graph of of, you you know know, or or graph graph, i I should should say say, my my accent accent coming coming out out, you you know, which way, you know, whether the child is kind of growing quickly enough, you know, have they got all these, you know, skills, you know, which is the macro and the micro, you know, and I find that really interesting. And then we have tables of when you can kind of read and write, when you can do particular, you know, skills or not skills, you know, and I find that really, that I find troubling. I know we need some kind of way of judging academia with regards to getting into university, but actually is not the whole of life and I think we need to really make sure that we're very careful about the benchmarking this and the tools that we use to kind of measure people to work out where they need to go in life and sometimes it looks like like you failed. Sometimes it looks like you're, again, you've not quite managed a particular benchmark. And so you're not good enough. I think actually just shows you that this is not the right avenue for you. There may be different avenues. And there's benchmarks everywhere. We've got unwritten rules. We often, the classic is, you know, oh better or i should have known or i ought to do this a different way or not to be who i am you know so again we have society benchmarks as well don't we in standards of what we should and shouldn't be doing and being um so it it creates a sense of shame i think as well that again like you said you know what i was saying at the beginning but not good enough or not enough you know um it's about finding your own your own place in the world there's a space for every single person it's finding out what your space is and i love that yeah Yeah. looking It's at your own race, isn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. I know this concept of the modern world being the problem. So I wonder if thousands of years ago, there were ADHDers out there who were looking at their tribe and the way things were done in their culture and thinking, this is wrong. I'm not a hunter and I'm not a gatherer. I'm an artist, goddammit. I'm going to go and do some cave paintings. I wonder how different it would have been to have exactly the same genetic package that we've got. Because technically we can be transferable. We can move ourselves into any culture and assimilate more or less seamlessly. So, yeah, what what I'm i'm trying trying to to say say โ no no, i've I've forgotten forgotten what i'm trying to say now but we're basically sort of circling around the negative side of things again and i want to bring it back to the positive so obviously in hunter gatherer settings uh for example or lots of other prehistoric cultures being neurodivergent would i think have been less stressful in terms of social pressure to remember to well do your taxes do your paperwork to pay the bills to do all those sorts of things i i like to think that there was less immediate pressure um but then again i we did an episode recently on theophrastus um his obtuse man and in that this um stereotyped ancient athenian character uh was displaying all sorts of hilariously adhd i'm going to call it i'm sorry if anybody's suffering with this at the minute, but those wonderful aspects of ADHD where you, I think Theophrastus is an obtuse man. He put salt in his food twice. He was supposed to go to court and forgot about it and went to the countryside. So I'm sure there was ever have adhd been a pain in the backside but um it's nice to think about the positive aspects of of neurodivergence and the creativity the out-of-the-box thinking the the energy the seeing the world from a different perspective do you see more of that in school than you do the negative aspects? Or do you see it as sort of a double-edged sword and that the schools, or even the pharmaceutical industry and the medical fields are focusing on the negatives because we're seeing it as a problem and not catering enough to the talents and potential? I think it's a mixed bag, to be honest, because, again, I'm going to speak about, you know, anecdotally, I've seen children who are ADHD thrive in secondary school. That's because they've maybe found a particular mentor, teacher or subject they particularly like. You know, so you think about what's driven you to do archaeology, George. I know school, you described it earlier in this episode of it not being the best place for you, but actually, you know, something was there because it gave you the opportunity to study archaeology. You know, there was a hook and it got you in and that became your kind of interest and part of your career. So I think it's often to do with, from what you're describing when you talk about in the past you know there i wonder if difference was more appreciated or allowed so you know you may not have had the strength of being somebody who um you know we didn't have to worry about taxes but somebody would have had to think about the detail in certain groups um and then they had the big the big idea thinkers about, you know, taking maybe the tribe to the next location, you know, somebody had to, you know, kind of think, right, is it worth the risk? And we're going to, we're going to have a go and we're going to try it out. So, you know, there are definitely lots of positives and it comes out when it's allowed to shine to blossom so it might be in school it might be in a particular subject it might be in sports it might be in creative medias and arts it might be sciences it might be about you know who thought of putting us on the moon you know, know somebody somebody had had to to have have that that thought thought. and And at at the the time time, it it would would have have been been considered considered absolutely absolutely, you you know know, bonkers bonkers. and And really really, you you know, but eventually it became possible. So, you know, we need that difference, you know, and I think what is challenging is that we have a criteria, which is what focuses on the negative because often with medication and support it's done in a way that says right let's look at how it's impacting you and negatively kind of causing you problems in your life then you're going to get some help and actually wouldn't it be lovely if anybody who actually is screened and does have this neurodivergence that they are going to get help regardless of whether it's negative or not. And actually, it's going to be kind of, well, let's do this because we need to make sure that we really support everybody. And everybody has a place in the world. Like I said, everyone has a space. And so we need to kind of help everyone. I suppose the difference between a nurturing society and a society that just decides, well, this is kind of how I want everyone to be. You know, this is a very narrow set of criteria. And so I don't think until you actually get into the world of work, you realise just how diverse that is. You know, I mean, I don't know how many different types of skills and jobs are available in the world of archaeology. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. So we need we need all of that. But I think if, you know, we're not harnessing a really quite a big section of society, you know, then that's a problem. Because if you want, we can always have a look as well of the actual, I suppose, signs of ADHD and autism, and then look at it as, you know, well, actually, how can that be a strength? Yes, it can also be hindrance, but it can also be a strength. And let's kind of grow towards