00:00:00
00:00:01
Theophrastus and the ‘Obtuse Man’ - Ep 3
18 Plays19 hours ago
Theophrastus wrote a series of character descriptions in 3rd C BCE Athens. The Obtuse Man describes a fictional character based on Theophrastus' encounters with real Athenians and perfectly describes the distractible and often frustrating symptoms of ADHD.
Dr Gina Musket of the Univesity of Liverpool Classics department talks about 3rd/4th C Athens, Theophrastus and life in Ancient Greece.
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For rough transcripts of this episode, go to: https://www.archpodnet.com/adhdbce/3
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Transcript
00:00:01
Speaker
You're listening to the Archaeology Podcast Network.
00:00:17
Speaker
Hello and welcome to ADHD BCE. I'm George Lomas and I have ADHD, autism and a fascination with all things ancient. In today's episode, we're heading back to ancient Athens, where some of the world's most interesting and influential characters helped shape democracy, philosophy, theatre, architecture, just to name a few of the ways the ancient Athenians contributed to the modern world.
00:00:39
Speaker
Now, as a podcast, that's all about identification of diversity in the past. There is one particular piece of evidence that I couldn't wait to investigate, and that is Theophrastus' obtuse man. Now, I'm no academic, but fortunately, I don't have to be. So it's my pleasure to introduce Dr. Gina Muscat, who is an honorary research fellow in history at the University of Liverpool and honorary research associate for National Museums Liverpool.
00:01:05
Speaker
Gina also used to lecture Greek art and archaeology at the University of Liverpool and is the author of Greek sculpture published by Bloomsbury. Gina, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much, George, and good morning to everyone. And can I just say, first of all,
00:01:21
Speaker
Thank you so much for the invitation to take part in this really interesting exercise, which I'm looking forward to very much indeed. ah Thanks, Gina. We can't wait to get stuck into this one as well. so yeah so we're We're going to be talking about Theophrastus today, but before we hear about him and his work, The Obtuse Man, would you mind giving us some background to the period in which he lived? Not at all.
00:01:47
Speaker
It's important to remember really the time when Theopharsus was living. He was born in 370 BC, but he spent much of his adult life in ancient Athens. So I'd really like to give you some background on the period from the later fourth century BC through to the early third century BC. And at that time, the center of Athens was he absolutely dominated by the sanctuary of Athena on the Acropolis hill. That view, which is seen on numerous picture postcards from the past, a view taken by anyone who visits Athens today, even if you're just there for a very short period. The thing everyone wants to see is the sanctuary of Athena on the Acropolis hill.
00:02:44
Speaker
And the buildings that you can see today, so the big temples, the Parthenon, and also the smaller temple, very beautifully decorated temple, the Erich Theon, along with the little temple of Athena Nike, which visitors can see today, as in the past, when you approach the sanctuary, they'd already been built.
00:03:10
Speaker
So when you look at the sanctuary today, but just filter out the few Roman remains that you can see, and you can see the view which Theophrasus and his contemporaries would have seen. On the slopes of the Acropolis, you would have a theater, a theater dedicated to the god of wine and of theater, Dionysus. And right at the foot of the Acropolis, you'd come across something which is very much associated with ideas of ancient Athens, that is democracy.
00:03:48
Speaker
And the area that we call it the Agora, as it's technically, it can be translated as marketplace, but it's much more than that. It was really well established as the focus of the institutions of democracy, particularly the Bule,
00:04:10
Speaker
the City Council, which met in the council house, the Buliterium. But also within the Agora were other places, so there was a painted stower famous for its art.
00:04:26
Speaker
ah There were other stowers, which are essentially covered areas, absolutely perfect, I would suggest, for the climate in Athens, where you can be absolutely baking hot in the summer and you're absolutely craving the shelter of a stower.
00:04:44
Speaker
but also as well on those chilly days in the winter where, frankly, you do need a little bit of shelter. And yes, I have been in Athens in the winter where it has not just rained, but also snowed, can you believe? Wow. Yes, and I know that's not quite your picture postcard, is it, hey? No. you no But alongside the agora and something which, again, features in many, many photographs which visitors take today,
00:05:14
Speaker
was another temple, the Temple of Hephaestos. Now that looks as though it's been reconstructed, but you know it hasn't. And the reason why it survived is because it was used as a Christian church.
00:05:31
Speaker
I have to say that that later reuse has been very, very significant. um The other building, which looks as though it was built quite recently, looks that way because, you know, it was built quite recently towards the middle of the 20th century on the ancient foundation of another massive long stower, the Stower of Atlas.
00:05:57
Speaker
And the reconstruction was founded by the Rockefeller Foundation, ah very famous for its generous, generous philanthropy. But in fact, that's something that wouldn't have been there as the Acropolis buildings were being constructed, not there when the Parthenon was being constructed. That was much, much later, and something which I'm afraid that our hero, the obtuse man,
00:06:26
Speaker
would not have seen. It it wasn't built yet. Wow, I didn't realise that. Yes, it's things are not always what they seem. But but it isn't. I mean, the Agora is a perfect example of two beautifully preserved buildings, but one preserved from antiquity and the other um a much more modern construction. It's now a museum, by the way.
00:06:51
Speaker
So it's not just there for for decoration. And, you know, when I was talking about the good weather, bad weather days, the Agro Arm Museum, it's a lovely place to visit. And in there, you can also see many of, how can I put it, the instruments of democracy. So you can see ancient ballot boxes on display. You can see the ancient water clock where speakers in the council house would be timed.
00:07:18
Speaker
no So it it would be the equivalent of so doing stand up in a comedy club. And that has helped you to get off the stage. They had a water clock is a bit more subtle, really. Yes. But I mean, thinking about where our characters would live, which is important to think about, because quite often, you know, when we see ancient houses in TV reconstructions, you know, drama set in the past,
00:07:47
Speaker
or in films set in the past. The houses almost look as though they're all in the countryside. They often look as though um the streets are fantastically regular. And this was indeed the case in some of the Greek cities and towns. However, in ancient Athens, which had really grown organically,
00:08:13
Speaker
Really, I would say since the eighth century BC, that what you'd be looking at really are houses which were fantastically irregular in plan because they kind of fitted in with the vagaries of the city streets, the wandering city streets almost. However, one of the things that they would have had in common was a great desire for privacy. So the houses would look quite plain from the outside.
00:08:43
Speaker
Really, they'd be inward looking with a wall on the outside. Once you entered the house, you would see rooms so facing an inner courtyard.
00:08:54
Speaker
So that would give fantastic privacy, which I would suggest was really essential if you are looking for comfortable family living, shall we say, on a busy city street. yeah I mean, there were occasional country houses in the countryside around Attica, and I will be mentioning the countryside in relation to Bifrassus' obtuse mount a little bit later. Now, these houses were set in the countryside. They'd often have a slightly defensive aspect, so they were often constructed perhaps with a lookout tower so that if there was a danger of being attacked, well, at least they could put someone there to look out for them.
00:09:41
Speaker
wow oh But just going back to the city houses, although we don't know where the obtuse man, if indeed there was a single person, but and as I will go on to say, I don't think the character was a single person, that the wealth would often be able to be judged by their dining rooms.
00:10:05
Speaker
now To a certain extent, if anyone listening today does either host dinner parties themselves or go to dinner parties, you may agree that, yeah, sometimes when you have visitors, you really do make a bit of an effort. And it is exactly the same in the ancient Greek world because the largest room in any house was frankly usually the dining room. Now,
00:10:32
Speaker
I'm afraid that the term in ancient Greek literature does sound quite sexist today. It's called anthron, which is derived from the ancient Greek word for man, for male. So an anthron would be a space for males to dine together and also to drink together and to chat together, to discuss weighty matters together. All very interesting.
00:11:04
Speaker
However, the thing which I would suggest it may have in common with today, at least amongst um people who do entertaining, is that it would have been the best appointed room. And certainly on excavation, you do find traces of couches to recline on. Now that archetypal picture image that you have of the ancient classical past,
00:11:33
Speaker
ah people not sitting around a table, sitting on chairs, but reclining on one elbow on a couch, leaning forward to a table to pick out tasty morsels and being served with wine. Or should I really say a mixture of water and wine, because that was considered the in inverted commas civilised thing to do. In a smaller house, which to be frank, could be the sort of house which our character would have lived in, it probably would have had just three couches. But you know there's no reason why it couldn't have gone up to five or even nine. And that would be the norm in a larger, in quite a larger, more elite house. It was always an odd number, interestingly, that there was always seemed to be an architectural convention, an interior design convention, should I say.
00:12:33
Speaker
Now, if you go to a museum today, any museum that's got any ancient Greek antiquities in, including the one where I used to curate the collection, what we tend to have um in our display cases or on the shelves in our collection stores tend to be decorated pottery.
00:12:56
Speaker
In the time that I'm talking about the the later fourth and the early third centuries, it would be what we call red figure. So that is the figures, whether it's human figures or animal figures or buildings, other inanimate objects, would be rendered in red against a black background um with the detailed data painted on in a darker slip, which would actually fire black so that you could see detail of clothing, facial features, for example. However, perhaps that's giving us a slightly misleading impression. And even though some of those country houses that I was mentioning have produced in excavations, shards of this red figure decorated pottery from vessels which would plausibly be used on the table.
00:13:54
Speaker
But the reality is that the very elite families would have used silver vessels, so expensive metal vessels, for eating and drinking. Bit like going to a grand dinner in Buckingham Palace, where apparently people go to see the gold plates. That's the highlight, apparently, not the food.
00:14:17
Speaker
But of course, this is the type of material that doesn't often survive in the archaeological record, not least because materials such as silver are recyclable. But someone like our hero in inverted commas could very well have just eaten off pottery and drunk from pottery, which was plain black glazed.
00:14:44
Speaker
Now, that's doing it down a bit, you know, because the clay in Athens is has got a really wonderful property. But when you dilute it so that it turns into a slip, that it's a really runny clay, when it's fired at a high temperature, it produces this wonderful black mirror-like finish. Really beautiful.
00:15:13
Speaker
And it has been suggested, and I agree, that this could be um a more everyday version of silver. So you know rather than have a silver drinking cup, that actually a black glazed cup would in some ways give the same impression, but would be a heck of a lot cheaper. you know if If you try to imagine the world in which our heroes would live. But perhaps it is time to start thinking about Theophrastus, who is the author of the text, which George mentioned earlier in the podcast. But essentially, the text we're going to, I'm going to be talking about, it's actually not a whole book in itself. The text is called Anesthetos in ancient Greek.
00:16:11
Speaker
which we usually translate into English these days as the obtuse man. But important to remember that the obtuse man isn't a standalone piece of writing, but actually is part of a much larger, much longer work called characters in English. Now in this, Theophrastus described 30 different characters.
00:16:40
Speaker
in the Athens in which he lived. So the characters would include, for example, i won't let don't worry, I won't list them all. So we've got the pompous man, the suspicious man, the affable man, the flatterer, the shameless man, and so on. But all of them are male. This was one of the facts of life, I'm afraid.
00:17:09
Speaker
Now, as I hinted at earlier, the people described are apparently not individuals. They're really stereotypes. And what Theophrastus has done is he combined aspects of a variety of different people. Back to Theophrastus himself, I think it's worthwhile just um highlighting, just flagging up what we actually know about him.
00:17:40
Speaker
And um the thing that it is worthwhile mentioning is although Theophrastus was born in the 4th century BC, our main source of information about who he was and his life is from a much later author called Geogenes Lietius. Now he was writing in the 3rd century AD, so If my maths is up to it, I think we're looking at a period of around 600 years after Theophrastus lived. Now, the big thing that we don't know, and we really don't know this, is whether or not Diogenes Lietius had access to an earlier source of information.
00:18:31
Speaker
which is now lost, which is more contemporary with Theophrasus and the period in which he was living, we don't know. But there's this little caveat that I'd like you to bear in mind as we talk about him. We don't even know exactly when Theophrasus was born, but it was certainly around 370-ish BC.
00:18:59
Speaker
And he wasn't born in Athens. He was actually born on the um island of Lesbos, which is in the eastern part of the Aegean Sea. So to a certain extent, really on the outskirts of the ancient Greek world. And in case you're thinking, oh goodness, how on earth did he become acquainted with Athens and the life and the customs there? It is worth saying that at the time,
00:19:30
Speaker
having changed hands a few times. But at this time, the island was actually controlled by the powerful, the very powerful city of Athens. So this individual, ah Theophrastus, wasn't his original name. And according to the ancient sources, his original name was Theophrastus. So how did he get this name? Well, Theophrastus If you split it down the middle, the first meat bit means God and the second bit means speaking. So his name and the name by which we know him today, very lovely, he was speaking like a God. However,
00:20:18
Speaker
Um, ah again, according to the sources, he didn't give himself this name, which sounds a little bit big headed, perhaps. Oh, I speak like a God. It was actually Aristotle who was another philosopher who called him this. And you know, even if it was intended to be quite a lighthearted nickname, it actually stuck. And he was known as Theophrastus for the rest of his life.
00:20:46
Speaker
Now, Theophrastus met Aristotle while both were students in Athens at the Academy, which for this purpose must always have a capital A. And the Academy was founded by another philosopher ah called Plato in 388 BC, a little bit earlier in the fourth century. And it's often considered the first university, that bit in inverted commas, of the Western world. However, Aristotle went on to found um his own school, if you like. This was in Athens again, in 335 BC, when he founded a school at the site that we call the Lekion. Although, to be frank, rather than using the Greek term Lekion,
00:21:44
Speaker
in English, we usually refer to it in its Roman form as Lyceum. And you may be aware of other Lyceums.
00:21:55
Speaker
And ah the Lecaion wasn't a totally new foundation by Aristotle that actually decided to be in the focus for earlier philosophers as well. However, from the time when Aristotle founded the ah Lyceum, the fame of the school and its really famous library was a great attraction. And it attracted a huge number of students, well, a huge number for the time. We can gauge a little bit perhaps about the way lectures were run after Lyceum. So rather than today when someone like me would turn up in a big lecture room
00:22:45
Speaker
or at more a smaller seminar room, and I'd stand at the front with my PowerPoint presentation behind me, and I'd be pointing to things, or in the very early days, my transparencies. Some people may remember those, but I'd essentially stay put at the front. As George may remember, I did tend to wander up and down a little bit, but I essentially stayed at the front. However, Aristotle's school,
00:23:14
Speaker
was also known as the peripatetic school, which means moving about. And it's most likely because the philosophers and the students would stroll around the school and its lovely gardens during the lectures. Now, Doug's going to jump in there, Gina. That sounds like heaven to me. So you've got beautiful Mediterranean weather, really interesting subjects, and you get to walk around a garden whilst you're learning. that that's that That's built for neurodiversity.
00:23:44
Speaker
Wouldn't that be wonderful? Wouldn't that be fabulous? However, it didn't happen at the University of Liverpool. At least I'm during my time. But actually, where does Theophrastus come in into this? Well, just before Aristotle died in 322, Aristotle passed the Lyceum onto Theophrastus, who had continued not only to be an associate, a colleague,
00:24:13
Speaker
But also, they were clearly friends. But just to conclude the life of Theophrastus, that, yeah, he continued to s serve the Lyceum really right up to his death. um He had good, long life, by the way, that he died in 287 BC, again, according to our sources. And the Lyceum continued because he left the school as well as his personal library, so not just the
00:24:44
Speaker
essentially the Lyceum library, but also his personal library, he left to one of his followers who continued with the work. And I think this is the time to actually mention a bit of archaeology. I'm sure you'd agree, Georgia, that would be a good thing to do. Always, always. yeah Absolutely. Now, we knew about the Lyceum from written sources.
00:25:10
Speaker
And because of the geographical information, we're kind of able to pin down from these sources the area of Athens where it was built. But it's only in the last within the last 30 years that we've actually found any physical evidence of the Lyceum, which I think is really exciting.
00:25:35
Speaker
And it all arose because there was to be a new museum of modern art built in the city of Athens. And it was in the area of where archaeologists and philologists really pinned down where the Lyceum was. So obviously, as is normal these days, there was preliminary archaeological work done before big bulldozers moved in. And in 1996,
00:26:04
Speaker
the archaeologists found the remains of a very large complex of buildings. And really putting all the information together, it was identified as the gymnasium of the Lyceum. Now, important to add here that in the ancient Greek world, the gymnasium wasn't considered not just as somewhere to get fit and keep fit, like the use of the term today.
00:26:34
Speaker
But using a gymnasium was actually part of a young man's overall wellbeing ah alongside his more academic intellectual education. So that's where that fits in. And anyone who is visiting Athens today um can visit the area. It was decided it was far too important to build the art museum on. It's actually moved to a site barely fairly close, which did not have important archaeological remains. So you can not only read about the Lyceum, you can visit it too, for only a few euros. yeah But while we're talking about the Lyceum that I mentioned strolling through the gardens, that idyllic place to have a lecture, that it's worth saying that um we know from his works, other than characters,
00:27:32
Speaker
that Theophrastus had a real interest in plants. And as part of his work, he cultivated quite a lot of really interesting plants and studied them. And if I speak to any botanist friend and I say, have you heard of Theophrastus? They will all say to me, oh, yes, we know him as the father of botany.
00:28:02
Speaker
ah and And the reason for that is that he wrote two works that we know of that have survived. One's called The Causes of Plants and the other is Cause Inquiry into Plants. Now, both of those seem very, very general and may not seem initially to be terribly useful to anybody. But actually, when you take them together,
00:28:29
Speaker
they're considered to be the first books, and I mean the first books that we know of, which gave a type of system to the world of plants. And this led to our modern day signs of botany.
00:28:44
Speaker
oh oh There you are. He's not just famous for the Constitution then. No, no, no. that that I was just thinking, as as you were talking there Gina, about the time he was born. I just wanted to put that opinion in it for anybody who does have a bit of background in and ancient Greek history or anybody wants to know.
00:29:10
Speaker
Just to put it in context, he was born around the time it was because Aristotle taught Alexander the Great, didn't he? Absolutely. Right. So so we've got a direct sort of direct link. what a direct link Yeah. um I mean, certainly it is worth saying that although at the time when Theophrastus was born at on Lesbos, Athens was really the important city and continued to be.
00:29:40
Speaker
It's worth saying that as the fourth century progressed, ah something was happening to the north. And it's what ancient historians always refer to as the rise of Macedon, which was a powerful family in the north of Greece, based at the archaeological so well archaeological site today, based at the city of Vagina in the north of Greece.
00:30:09
Speaker
If you are visiting the North of Greece, perhaps based in Tassaloniki, or one of the lovely resorts upon the Halkidiki Peninsula, um it is well worth it taking a trip to Vergina, where you can see not only the palatial sites of what became known as the House of Macedon, but also as well It's the place of some absolutely splendid tombs. Some of the most important excavations on the Greek mainland in the latter part of the 20th century were at this site. on we The king who gained ascendancy as Macedon rose and spread south was Philip. Yes. And Philip was the father of Alexander.
00:31:01
Speaker
whose fame was such that we call him the Great. Of course, poor Alexander died while still a young man um in 323 BC ah following his death. um The Greek world, which included what we think of today as Turkey extending, extend down to um the south um into but the whole of mainland Greece, um we think of now as the Hellenistic world, because the empire was split between the generals, including a general called Ptolemy, which anyone who knows about ancient Egypt will think, ah, was he the person who started the Ptolemaic dynasty? The answer is yes, he was. And one of the Ptolemaic rulers was
00:31:58
Speaker
a woman, a woman precisely called Cleopatra VII. We think of her today as the Cleopatra. Think Elizabeth Taylor. Yes. And the like, immortalized by Shakespeare amongst others. So it was the fourth and the third centuries were a really interesting time in the ancient Greek world. And i'm and speaking about the ancient Greek world, because as I've intimated,
00:32:28
Speaker
it spread geographically outside what we would think of today as Greece. yes i mean greece The Greek mainland it didn't become the Hellenic Republic until the 19th century and the island of Crete did not become part of Greece until the early 20th century. so We have to be quite careful when we talk about Greece, which was why I always remember to put the word ancient in front of it when I'm speaking about the past. Yes, absolutely. so did yeah Theophrastus was an incredible company. Obviously, we've got that the diurnal Socrates to plate it, Aristotle to Theophrastus. weve got
00:33:15
Speaker
Alexander the Great, we've got the the yeah well Athens doing his thing. It's things such an incredible time. And in the middle of all that, Theo Frass decides he's going to write some characterisations. Do we know why he did this? Or is it just we we found it, so we talk about it? um It's one of those things, George, where he doesn't explain. i mean Essentially,
00:33:44
Speaker
I think what he's looking for is, and ah there is some debate about whether or not it's intended to be a comic piece of writing. If so, it's not to the taste that we have today. But as I've mentioned previously, they seem to be stereotypes. And the really unfortunate thing to the reader today is that These characters don't appear to have the sympathy of Bierfrastus.
00:34:19
Speaker
And although I would think that it's ah the more I read them, I think it's highly unlikely that he's singling out individual people. But he's um essentially writing about individual aspects of characters.
00:34:42
Speaker
Sure, he's drawing inspiration from people he's been bored up with, worked with, loved, hated, all that lot. And and is it is it quite sort of a go going off what you're saying, do you find it to be quite a judgmental characterisation rather than a ah curious one? Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, there are a series of statements that he makes And ah but I think it's worth saying that, you know, I mentioned that the Greek title is anesthetos. I think perhaps that we have to bear in mind that perhaps a better translation than obtuse is perhaps a lack of appreciation.
00:35:31
Speaker
If that seems fair. Okay, now that immediately a lack of appreciation, could that be considered to be a lack of attention, do you think? Sure, sure. send committee And it's the word obtuse. I mean, there is a mathematical meaning of obtuse. And and I'm sure some of us can remember from school maths talking about those really wide obtuse angles. But the other meaning, I absolutely am not going to repeat a dictionary definition of obtuse, because I think it's very inappropriate. I also think that some of the words mentioned in dictionary definitions have been used in place of obtuse in earlier translations. So from translations of this piece of work,
00:36:25
Speaker
ah from the early part of the 20th century. If your curiosity is piqued, do look it up yourself, but it doesn't make good reading, frankly.
00:36:38
Speaker
But I would also say, though, that um because of the rise of awareness of ADHD in much more recent times,
00:36:50
Speaker
that there have been some articles by, what, medical specialists, so um which I've obviously consulted when doing some background reading four podcasts, and one that I'd really like to highlight came out um in 2022 in the journal, it's a Greek journal, Sietriki, by two Greek scholars, Otemias Pelavides, Pelavanides, apologies to him, and Katarina,
00:37:20
Speaker
Papa Nicolaou, and essentially I was on well blown away, if I can say, by the very careful insights that their background, their medical training has given them into helping with the analysis of the text.
00:37:41
Speaker
Sure, I can see that. Do you have that with you now, Gina, or some notes? yeah Well, I'd be very happy to go through some of the relevant things that Theophrastus mentions. I would comment that there are some of the statements that Theophrastus make, which really suggest
00:38:03
Speaker
SPCD, you know, social pragmatic communication disorder, which is probably a wee bit off topic for today. But just things that appear to be a little bit more perhaps markers of ADHD. So for example, at the start, fibrosis mentions that the man, because he is a man. Of course, of course he's a man. Of course he's a man.
00:38:32
Speaker
And he performs a calculation. He writes down the total and then almost immediately asks the person he's with, how much does that come to? Ooh, that could be dyscalculia. Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. so Another one, another thing that he's said.
00:38:55
Speaker
is that, um which does give us a little bit of a clue about the background of this particular person, suggesting that he does indeed live in Athens because he's talking about traveling to the countryside. So that implies that he's not living permanently in the countryside, that the man is due to defend a lawsuit, but he forgets to go to court.
00:39:22
Speaker
I shouldn't I mean but i shouldn't offer that there have definitely been incidences of that in modern times. Yeah, okay. yeah And instead, he goes to the countryside. But again, it is interesting to to get a bit of a background to the individual, really contributing to the picture of a person or people who we can identify now as having ADHD, which I'll go on to at the end Piafrasis also writes that the man puts something away, but then he can't remember where he actually put it. Oh, wow. I can relate to that. Okay. Right. Big trick by that one. But something which is quite interesting that he's clearly owed some money because when he's asking for the money back, he takes witnesses with him.
00:40:18
Speaker
which ah suggests that he wants other people to be with him while he's doing it. Does he think that he'll, I don't know, forget what he's there for? But anyway, he's clearly owed some money. And also, we know that he would have had, and within his household, ah what we can euphemistically talk about as servants, but in fact,
00:40:48
Speaker
were probably enslaved people. But in the winter, as I've already indicated, they do have winter in lovely sunny Athens, and he gets terribly upset with his servant.
00:41:01
Speaker
in brackets, enslaved servant, when he fails to buy cucumbers. well Cucumbers are really are um um of a summer vegetable, so they're not in season. but It's almost as though it's not acknowledging what the season is and what's in season.
00:41:20
Speaker
Yeah, you you send you could argue who's being a bit of a diva there, but also it could i know i know that it fetch me those cucumbers. Yeah. yeah yeah yeah i did and i did your cumb exactly But also it it shows, well, absent mindedness is part of probably some kind of ah executive dysfunction there. that's ah Yeah, that's that's the kind of thing. I don't know. We have a habit in our in our family. if We always want Chinese on Tuesdays and Obviously, two Chinese is always closed on Tuesday, so yeah i don't know this yeah yeah I don't have any. I go along with that. I'll join you for for Chinese Tuesday. Sounds lovely. ah yeah it did does sound Yeah, so there's that's really interesting about the cucumber there and the seasonality. yeah Yeah, but actually ah staying on food. And I think this is is quite an interesting one because I deliberately didn't talk about the house I'll set up earlier.
00:42:18
Speaker
But what ah again, leaving Athens when he's in the countryside. And the inference from the text is that he's, we'll choose our modern day parlance, roughing it almost. He cooks lentils. They said that he cooks lentils. And he puts the salt in once, but then comes back and puts salt in again.
00:42:42
Speaker
Oh, I've definitely i've done that i've done that I've done that. Yeah. Well, you will know, George, that if you over salt something, unless you're a guest somewhere and you're being amazingly polite, it actually makes them inedible, completely inedible. Yeah. But I think it it does raise that slight question as well, is that When he's in the countryside, he's cooking lentils. There is actually um a literary reference, ah which could again, I'm not sure about this, be slightly comedic. So, you know, it could it could be intended to be read as funny, that when a man's away, um his wife is there cooking lentils for him, ready for him to come home. But in this case, we've got the obtuse man,
00:43:39
Speaker
cooking the lentils himself. Now is this because he's with another group of men? ah Certainly it is the case um in ancient literature, which is of course our only source on this, that if we're talking about food preparation, that males have been, well, I mean, from the time when the epic poet Homer was being consigned to paper, again, in inverted commas, in the eighth century BC, that you hear about males being associated with meat, particularly butchery and butchery of offerings,
00:44:22
Speaker
but not necessarily cooking vegetables or pulses, that as in this case. So again, that really does, I think, raise a few questions there. But just really, you know from this, and I said, I won't go into the SPCD ones unless there is time. But essentially, these are things which Theophrastus and essentially lumps together in the portrait of the obtuse man, although they may be slightly different in how we would interpret them today. so but Absolutely it would. i'm I'm just trying to think, with Theophrastus' inspiration for these characters,
00:45:18
Speaker
i yeah I'm trying to think, how how old was Theo Frastis when he wrote this? Does anybody know? Was he later in his career or was he quite a young man? that there I really wish that he'd signed off as Theo Frastis aged 30 and a half or something like that. Yeah, but we don't know. Alas, but and obviously it is worth saying that we often have these texts because they are copied and recopied and recopied again. yeah And I said, of course, um our knowledge of Theophrasus is overwhelmingly from centuries. I mean, if you think back from today, you know, in the 2020s, and you think back around 600 years, I think, I've got to be honest, I think, well, actually,
00:46:14
Speaker
This scene, we're writing about not recent history. You know, we're not writing about, I don't know, the Second World War or something like that. We're actually writing about... m Where are Yeah, 600 years ago. Medieval history. Yeah, absolutely. But I mean, I've really got to say that I don't, as we said previously, I mean,
00:46:43
Speaker
He really describes the obtuse man and ah all the others, the flatra, et cetera, in quite an unsympathetic way. But again, I think to try to put a positive light on it, but he's not actually singling out an individual. No, no, no, it's not. the option Yeah, the obtuse man is a egg gay conglomerate of various people. yeah He's endured by the server, you know, if you take the tone that he's being more critical or judgmental towards them in his tone. Yeah, it's gonna be it. Yeah, so do you carry on, please carry on. No, I mean, all I was going to say is that really, I'm sure that we've all read more modern things when people are, I mean, again, it's a comedy writing, when people are talking about stereotypes,
00:47:41
Speaker
I mean you could say stereotypes are there for a reason, but it's really exaggerating particular ah characteristics about particular types of individual.
00:47:52
Speaker
absolutely Absolutely. And that and that know that also highlights the the the truth that ah with even the neurodiverse, so we may only make ADHD is we'll take up, I don't know, five to 10% of the population. I think and yeah the neurodiverse in total is 20 odd percent or something like that. ah But the saying goes that if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person, yeah we we all have our already been very difficult to I think you can you can sort of stereotype an ADHD, but that that actually has proven to be very harmful in terms of diagnosing or misdiagnosing or or preventing yeah people from going for assessments, especially girls, women, and the the inattentive ADHDs that don't necessarily display the hyperactivity of the ADHD stereotype, for example.
00:48:39
Speaker
Well, I would say as well that, I mean, again, it sounds like I'm defending CFS, which i most certainly isn't because I mean, these attitudes are appalling by today's standards. and But it's really not possible, I would suggest, to say how widespread the unsympathetic um attitude was towards anyone with characteristics of ADHD within.
00:49:07
Speaker
um Athenian society in the fourth and third centuries in general. And I also think it's worth saying that certainly um within my lifetime of watching comedy programs on television, that attitudes have changed markedly. And some of the stereotypes, which frankly, probably, you know, my family, everyone else's family in the 1970s,
00:49:36
Speaker
1980s were falling about laughing at, would be absolutely not possible today and just aren't shown. But I would like to point out though, that if you go through the different statements and, oh, now one of the s SPCD statements, if you like, is that we are told that the man has children.
00:50:04
Speaker
He doesn't treat them great. They're clearly quite young children, and he if basically forces them to run with him. Well, obviously, they're going to be absolutely exhausted. you know An athletic man, he's always going to be a little child in a race. Oh, and even worse, wrestling. I mean, an adult man, wrestling with a little child, unless he's a very kind man.
00:50:30
Speaker
the children aren't going to win, are they? anyway and So we know that he's married. And he he's married with children. and But also that he's got friends. e oh yeah He's got friends who we can take as witnesses with him. And again, one of the s SPCD ones um talks about um hearing about the death of a friend.
00:50:57
Speaker
And he answers, I've got to say quite inappropriately, but that's something else. At least he has friends. And we also know that he's got at least one servant. So he's not so the man or combination of men. He's not absolutely in the lowest rung of society. So ah despite these negative comments,
00:51:24
Speaker
that I think it's true to say that if you take all the positive bits together, the man, the obtuse man if you like, or the obtuse man, ah appear to have perfectly normal lives.
00:51:39
Speaker
o Yeah, it it does there's a display there of certain traits that could um be signs of executive dysfunction. I especially i also like the idea of Theo Frustis' obtuse man taking witnesses to collect his debts. so And I immediately thought of body doubling, which is something we talk about these days, but that's not quite what it is. I don't think that's quite what it is, but It's the kind of thing you do. you know You think I've got to go and do this thing, but I'm rubbish with numbers and I get emotional and I forget and I could probably use that. So he calls on friends and those friends.
00:52:20
Speaker
Absolutely. They recognized his and request and were happy to go with him. So yeah, that that that does that displays some really interesting insights to to the views of because neurodiversity has always been here. It's it's it's it's it's part of human human evolution. so we We can't say, we don't use terms like ADHD and autism in ancient Athens, but we know it was there because they're human beings. Therego, it was there. So looking for signs, obviously, theophrastics of obtuse man is an excellent source of evidence for those kind of behaviours. But it's also, I think, given some indications as to the attitudes towards ADHD. So some people may be frustrated by it.
00:53:03
Speaker
ah They may may find it and difficult, but they're also, there's a support network there. He can get married, he can have kids, he can have, well, that they hate saying slaves, but slaves, he can have those friends to go with him to to back him up. They they haven't gone, oh, don't be ridiculous. Go and sell your own debts out. Stop being dysfunctional. They've said, yeah, of course we'll come with you. We know who you are and we support that. So I'd say that's a really positive thing.
00:53:30
Speaker
I couldn't agree more and it's very easy um for anyone to just look up the text, read it and essentially, as you're probably reading it online these days, turn the computer off in absolute disgust. But but so when you when you see that really we're talking about someone who has quite a normal family life, hasn't been excluded in any way. Okay, we may not think, obviously, we all think it's um it's a really bad idea to have enslaved people working for us. But I'm sorry, that is what the society was. So if if you see the slightly mealy mails translation of servant, which sounds,
00:54:25
Speaker
so more acceptable. But actually, just keep at the back of your mind, you need to replace that in reality with enslaved person. But really, ah so this poor person does get shouted out for but not buying the cucumbers. But it's clearly part of the household of the obtuse man stroke men. And done yeah, all sounds perfectly
00:54:57
Speaker
perfectly reasonable and ah normal. So, on there are negatives. I cannot deny that. But, you know, there are some positives as well. I would add here that um literature, ancient texts are clearly our go-to source on this. I have looked And as yet have not succeeded in finding um a lot of evidence within the material surviving material culture of the period. But there again, how do you recognize ADHD in, ah for example, a piece of Greek painted pottery?
00:55:41
Speaker
Well, exactly. I mean, do you look for the artistry, you look for the imagination, the the natural creativity they're displaying. Absolutely. It's very difficult to do it from one thing. But if you I think what I'm hoping to do is pick various examples from cultures and try and piece together a fuller picture so that we can look back over the millions of years and recognize that neurodiversity has played a major role in establishing well the world as we know it. so sure and I think it would be extremely foolish and short-sighted to say
00:56:23
Speaker
Well, when was the term ADHD first used? Gosh, around 40 years ago. Well, clearly yeah yeah nothing matters before then, obviously folks. no People are all neurotypical before the eighties. It was my fault. I was born in 81. It was me. oh I started it. Yeah, absolutely. Stay no more, George. Well, Jean, I'm really sorry, but we've we've run out of time. I feel that there's more to talk about, but we may have to do that another time. So what remains for me to say is thank you so much for coming on the podcast today, Jean. I really am grateful for it, and the listeners will have learned a lot as well. So thanks very much for that. And I do think we have definitely seen signs of neurodiversity in ancient Athens.
00:57:11
Speaker
well thank you very much it's been an absolute pleasure to join you today george thank you again thank you ja
00:57:27
Speaker
This episode was produced by Chris Webster from his ah RV traveling the United States, Tristan Boyle in Scotland, DigTech LLC, Cultural Media, and the Archaeology Podcast Network, and was edited by Chris Webster. This has been a presentation of the Archaeology Podcast Network. Visit us on the web for show notes and other podcasts at www.archpodnet.com. Contact us at chrisatarchaeologypodcastnetwork.com.