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Mezzanotte Podcast #1 feat. Brother J48 (GAN) of J48BAFORMS
67 Plays1 year ago
First episode with @HybridGAN of @GROTTO_LABS artist behind many great projects including @J48BAFORMS one of the earliest hybrid AI / illustrated NFT collections ✰ ᝰ.ᐟ
https://twitter.com/mezzanottenft
https://twitter.com/HybridGAN
https://twitter.com/J48BAFORMS
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Transcript
Current Projects and AI in Java Forms
00:00:00
Speaker
What are you working on right now, if you don't mind me asking? Well, I'm doing a few projects at the moment. I'm trying to wrap up. I'm doing a new launch, hopefully, in the next few months. I think the next logical step for Java Forms, we've had the
00:00:29
Speaker
the OG, which, you know, we were exploring a lot of the early GAN tech.
Challenges in AI Originality
00:00:36
Speaker
And obviously, you know, the AI tech has advanced so much in the past few years that nowadays it's, well, it's becoming a thing where I think a lot of AI projects, you know, AI has a sort of like a built-in style.
00:00:58
Speaker
that's just harvested from whatever content the AI is being fed. So I think it's hard for a lot of these AI projects to look original, you know, because most of the time the actual stylistic input is coming from, you know, kind of low tier, mid tier skilled illustrators and stuff like that. Like I feel like most of the mid journey stuff is like so obviously mid journey and
00:01:28
Speaker
even a lot of the stable diffusion stuff is like kind of generic or
Unique AI Models and Artistic Input
00:01:34
Speaker
something. So I mean, what I've really tried to cultivate is my own AI model that is very distinct stylistically. So it can't really be replicated without my actual input of my art. And so that's going quite well, actually. We know we had a,
00:01:56
Speaker
We had a small release during the depths of the bear market where we were doing the Java Gen, which was sort of like an early test preview of what our AI engine is capable of at this moment.
Java Gen Test Launch in Market Downturn
00:02:12
Speaker
And so this next project is going to be sort of a, you know, we've sort of perfected it. So this new release is going to be a sort of AI infused, but very much
00:02:27
Speaker
stylistically our own, you know? Well, that's one of the things that I really like about Java forms when I first saw it is that it looks hand drawn, but it's it's made with AI. Well, no, no, the original Java forms, the majority. Well, that's not true. The basis of the collection is several thousand of my own hand drawings that we
00:02:55
Speaker
You know, as a team, we scanned, colorized, did all that stuff. So it actually is, you know, that and the Goblinies were both completely hand-drawn for the most part. The Java forms had the GANs, which were sort of like the earliest iteration of AI generation, I suppose. So yeah, the meat of the collection is AI, but
00:03:25
Speaker
the, you know, thousand plus drawings that I did as well are also available in the collection. So it's like kind of combined because you're feeding it. Yeah. And basically, well, yeah, it's like a GAN model was based off of all the drawings and then it was, you know, able to spit out the GANs.
Inspiration from Early AI and NFT Projects
00:03:52
Speaker
But the GANs, you know, the GANs were
00:03:55
Speaker
good but that AI model wasn't really able to think like the modern day AI models are able to think so it was producing stuff that was sort of in one vein which at the time I thought was cool but like nowadays with you know good prompting and good content in the AI engine you can
00:04:24
Speaker
really spit out interesting stuff, I think. And, uh, yeah, I guess it's interesting because it's like, what were you, were you seeing other projects that were doing a similar thing when you first started or like, where was this? Where was your inspiration for that? Do this sort of, you know, we were, we were there. I would say we want, we have one of the first,
00:04:53
Speaker
sort of AI projects that even came to be, you know, we took a lot of inspiration from, um, from the bastard GANs, GAN punks. And, uh, you know, I think, I think some of the stuff that those guys were putting out originally was really, really cool. Um, and sort of was like, yeah, what inspired me. I mean, we were fucking around and, you know, messing around with all the, uh,
00:05:23
Speaker
NFTs that came out around that period. But yeah, sort of how we got our foot in the door was being sort of like, I had, you know, I had my Twitter profile, it was basically sort of like giving artistic critiques of the various bastard ganpunks that had been generated. So it was like, yeah, I owe lots of Burke and all those guys, predominantly I would say.
NFT Art Quality vs Popularity
00:05:56
Speaker
I feel like this is probably like 2021 that this happened, that bastard can't happen or even like sometime that year. Yeah, something like the end of summer 2021, I think. I mean, his project was one of the first really, like I remember there was that project, the project that sort of got me into NFTs was hash masks, even though I thought hash masks were, the art was really, you know, basic and quite shit.
00:06:26
Speaker
the actual process of minting and getting the randomized piece with different rarities. You know, that really was dope to me at the time, despite the art. And I have a lot to say about the actual quality of NFTs. You know, I mean, I think the actual artistic content nine times out of 10 is hopelessly pathetic. You know, so I mean, I think a lot of there's a lot of good projects.
00:06:53
Speaker
that came out sort of like with the avant-garde and FT wave. And I think there's some interesting stuff on Solana right now that's popping off. But yeah, you know, it's, yeah, yeah. So it's. And I completely agree.
Artistic Appreciation vs Investment in NFTs
00:07:10
Speaker
And also the way that it's sort of, this is something that I find interesting because I feel like it's looked at from a weird, like, I feel like not knowing you quite well, but knowing your work.
00:07:23
Speaker
I feel like you come at it from a very specific, um, aesthetic artistic idea or minded, like you're very aesthetically minded. And, um, a lot of people are looking at things in terms of investment. And I think when things are viewed at that way, stuff gets tricky and weird in terms of the quality of the work and stuff.
00:07:50
Speaker
But the stuff that inspired me was your project and a lot of other projects around the same time that really made me think that some of the artists that I knew could make cool collections, basically. So it's really cool to have this conversation. But no, I totally agree with you. I feel like it's a medium that hasn't really fully been explored adequately enough. Plus, I can't really talk about it
00:08:18
Speaker
most of my friends, which is fine. It's just like, I don't really want to like, say the word NFT out loud to my like, regular friends in life. Yeah. No, I mean, me too. I mean, it's not, you know, I tend to just tell people I'm like, a digital art dealer or some shit like that. I tried to, uh, yeah, there's something sort of lame about it, really. I mean, the whole thing is lame in a sense. And I think the only thing that prevents it from being lame is the, like the aspects
00:08:48
Speaker
the NFT should have, like Harbor is this sense of actually buying a piece of fine art. You know, you can flip them if that's what you want fine, but like, you know, when most people buy a piece of art, they're not like planning to flip it within the year or within the month or within the day. You know what I'm saying? It's like, so, I mean, I feel it was stressful at times because I think, you know, despite the art,
00:09:18
Speaker
people can get upset with you as the as the developer or something like that because market conditions force the price down of your asset or whatever like that. And so it becomes this kind of like, well, did you give a fuck about the art to
Art Creation vs Financial Pressures in NFTs
00:09:33
Speaker
begin with, dude? It's like, what drew you into this? I mean, I get it. It's like, crypto is just one big money ball game. You know, it's like, so you're not really, you know, my real
00:09:48
Speaker
goal is to sort of try to you know bring a bit of sophistication to the field at the very least and also present someone with art that's heartfelt true to myself and resonates with other artists as well as collectors you know and I have a very I'd say I have a very sort of core collective base which you know they are all about the art but you know there's plenty of
00:10:17
Speaker
people who just like basically dumped forms you know once the market started to go down or whatever so it was like it's just frustrating because it the financialization of the whole thing is you know it's like a way for me to make a living but it's also it's just ugly it's just kind of ugly and
00:10:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to not like, it's hard to know really what's going on in terms of it. But if you look at it from it's yeah, I completely understand what you mean. Because sometimes I feel like I take things personally, or like, I'm confused as of how it doesn't translate really, in some weird way, or like, yeah, like you could, you could do a mint on a totally red day, and it wouldn't do well for that reason. Like, which is stupid. You know, it could, it would be my, and then, you know,
00:11:15
Speaker
There's a lot of factors at play with all this stuff that, unfortunately, I think about when it's really should just be like, I shouldn't have to think about that. I think our artists and people that release this stuff shouldn't have to think about that stuff and stress out about that stuff. Whereas like just doing what, you know, it's like also people, it's like, people can't really be as creative as they might want to be because
00:11:46
Speaker
they're always trying to make a product or art that's appealing in some way. How many projects have spawned as derivatives of Malady, for instance, or how many times has the mint price been lowered in order to try to facilitate some kind of flipping opportunity for the collectors?
00:12:17
Speaker
You know, the price just keeps getting knocked lower and lower as time goes by because A, I guess right now people just don't have the buckets of money that they had, you know, two years ago, but also like, I don't know, I just think it really hinders, you know, creative output.
00:12:44
Speaker
in this way because it's just about pandering, you know? No, I totally agree.
Artistic Integrity in Competitive NFT Market
00:12:50
Speaker
Yeah. And like, it's hard for me to even socialize with a lot of people in the game because they just don't get what it is to be an actual artist, you know, because I'm an artist by profession. Period. You know, I've always been a painter. So, I mean, it's just
00:13:11
Speaker
It's sort of just, it's like a field that these days can just be morally like morale, can just hammer your morale down because you're seeing some shit like, you know, the fucking Hacky Fox Club, like outdoing your product, outdoing your collection, like crazy because you've got some like doofy insiders who just,
00:13:41
Speaker
you know, have some kind of social clout and can get these, get the word out, you know? So I mean, that's always, that's the thing that I feel like I've always suffered from is that, you know, I always, I've always had a high quality, you know, things to offer, but it's just hard for me to get the word out through these like people, because most of these people who have, you know, some kind of,
00:14:11
Speaker
influence are always deeply uncool or something like that, you know? For sure. Yeah. And it's like a lot of the times for them, it's about like the new thing or like something that, yeah, that they, for them, it's too risky, which is really lame. And I really lame. And I completely understand that, uh, perspective totally. Um, but what, like, wouldn't, wouldn't you say that like,
00:14:40
Speaker
I guess in the real art world, in the IRL art world, the price of pieces of work from an independent artist, whether they're represented by a gallery or not, I mean, that depends on the gallery. Hasn't decreased in the way that NFT mint prices have decreased. No, definitely not. Definitely not. But it's like, I don't know.
00:15:14
Speaker
My question is, do you think that in the future, NFTs will be considered more as a transactional thing for real art, like IRL art or physical art or whatever? I mean, there's always the, I suppose NFT has application and it's like a sort of,
00:15:42
Speaker
provenance and as well as proof of ownership and stuff like that. But I don't, at this current point, it kind of seems redundant to do that. Like I, I've thought about doing that, like a collection where, you know, it's like a very small run collection, like, I don't know, a hundred, 200 pieces. Each NFT is connected to a drawing. If you buy the NFT, you get shipped the drawing, but then there's always like the,
00:16:11
Speaker
I mean, that's like a nice little gimmick, but it's also like, uh, I mean, what happens if someone wants to sell the NFT, but keep the art? Like there's no way to keep them intertwined. Yeah. And then people don't want to share their address. Yeah. And then that's that too. So it's like, and I don't really want to share my address either. So it's like, it's difficult to ship, you know, I don't, I don't want to
00:16:40
Speaker
Yeah. So I don't, you know, half of this whole game is about anonymity, right? So it's like, it's difficult. It's difficult, but I think, I mean, I think it's an, it's an idea, but at the moment it just doesn't seem it's like you can sell art or you can sell digital art.
AI as a Creative Tool, Not Competition
00:16:57
Speaker
It makes more sense for me for, for the NFT to just be an NFT and then physical work to be physical. Maybe you can give out physical work as, you know, giveaways or prizes or something to,
00:17:11
Speaker
get people to, you know, participate in some event, you know, whatever. Yeah. The way that we did this was just send out t-shirts for free to people that have people that people have minted for some of the projects. And that was fun for me because I was thinking of it as like, this physical thing is free, but you know, you're owning the digital piece and that makes it worthwhile in some way.
00:17:39
Speaker
But those are t-shirts. Those aren't like paintings, you know, or like drawings that are like hand-drawn and stuff. It's completely different. I think that's a more valid application than having the sort of art be automatically connected to the piece. I mean, the thing is, if the NFT was like supposed to be some kind of digital representation of a physical artwork, then
00:18:06
Speaker
The price, it's like there would be like, you know, a price difference between the two. Like I don't think the NFT would garner the same price as the physical, if that makes sense. Just because, I mean, you know, we still, the world is still a physical place, you know, we're still physical beings. Yeah. So yeah.
00:18:34
Speaker
So do you spend time, like, are you a developer in any way? Or are you mostly working on the visual side of things? Like, I guess I'm interested in like the kind of generation AI aspect of what you're working on. Well, I've got a few devs that work for me. And I sort of, you know, I'm always sort of at the helm, guiding the way. So, I mean, it's been a bit tough, you know, because I think
00:19:06
Speaker
You know, it's, it's, it's hard to like, you know, for us, it was, it was difficult because it became hard to maintain. I mean, it's, it's just hard. It's hard to be like independent in this game because, you know, I was running the social media side of things. I was community manager. I was like, you know, coming up with ideas.
00:19:36
Speaker
the developers all this stuff and frankly you know kind of burnt me out and you know that's just a reality of the thing is that you're gonna have to take on a lot more work and jobs than you might want to and you also don't want to ever let down you know your collectors even if they don't expect to make returns or games like you still have to
00:20:04
Speaker
Let them know you're alive. No, of course. Yeah. It's like the consistency aspect of it is very difficult. And it's like something that I thought about a lot. And I mean, that's, um, I, I totally relate. Um,
00:20:25
Speaker
But there's, yeah, I still like, yeah, I still think like, I don't know, I feel like you, I don't exactly know when JavaForms minted, but I know that it was before I got into NFTs and stuff like this and got into the whole like world of this stuff, you know, because I was like kind of early 2022. And, you know, it was kind of through a relative of mine that was into it and like, was like a big fan of your project and stuff.
00:20:54
Speaker
Um, I feel like when it was that popping off at that time, you know, like I kind of started when it started going down really hard and it was like, I think mints weren't going as well. Mints weren't going as well. And the mints started, the collection sizes started shrinking and stuff like that. And that's sort of, I just sort of like, you know, put my head down and went in that. That was the only thing I could do was like go ahead in that world or whatever.
00:21:24
Speaker
But I feel like who knows what's going to happen in the future. I don't like to speculate at all in any way. But I still think that there is. I have a hope for the entire thing, especially for the independent type of projects that are working with quality artwork and stuff like that. It's hard to say quality artworks. I'm so cheesy.
00:21:54
Speaker
You know what I mean. But like I still feel like there's the audience is growing in some way. It's like, you know, I've noticed even in like the two years that I've been into it, like there's been like, you know, people leave and people come in and then there's like the mainstay of people that are in there and like, yeah, it gets a little confusing because like someone could come in and be aware of your project that is out of like, you know, poorly new.
00:22:21
Speaker
and they have no context for work you've done. Like, you know, when you release your next project, when you release your next collection, like, it could be like, you know, a lot of new people that aren't familiar with what you've done. I wonder if that matters to you in any way. Well, yeah, I mean, obviously, I mean, I would love to I mean, this is, you know, this is kind of how I
00:22:50
Speaker
how I've been making my money, so it's sort of like, and I'm also like, I'm a bit of a recluse, you know, so, you know, the fact that I have this online persona and all of that, it's like a nice shield because, I mean, yeah, I don't even really like dealing with anyone in the art world.
NFT Trading Dynamics and Market Impact
00:23:11
Speaker
I hate kind of like bullshit schmoozing. I just hate bullshit period. So it's like, but I mean, back to what you were saying, I think,
00:23:21
Speaker
I have hoped to, you know, I think that, uh, I think there'll be another wave for sure. And honestly, like, even if you're a trader, trading NFTs for me is a whole lot less stressful. And it's also like, there's actually some form of enjoyment. It's not just like a bunch of people who are like faking enthusiasm for some vapor tech.
00:23:49
Speaker
And then, you know, going to sleep and it goes down 100% overnight. You know, it's like, it's not fun to do that. And people are going to come to realize that once they lose enough money, you know, it's like, it's, uh, I mean, even like those ERC 404s, I thought that was a major step backwards for NFTs. You know, I thought that was like the dumbest shit ever, pretty much, because like nobody fucking looked at the art.
00:24:18
Speaker
is just like and then it's like it's like the art was also even lower quality than it was ever before because it's just a stand-in you know it's not really anything so i really hated when that shit came out i really it's like just another thing to get in the way and to siphon money out of people's wallets you know so it's like i just think that uh
00:24:47
Speaker
know I'm sort of seeing something maybe like maybe another wave comes where when I think there's still a couple NFTs from 2021 that are doing good I mean not the not the ones that I like like fucking you know pudgy penguins is doing great still which is literally like Neopets it's like
00:25:12
Speaker
Yeah. It's also extremely corporate because they are like, you know, have a deal with Walmart and stuff. That to me is like, you know, and I get it. It's like, okay, they're cute little penguins, but also it's like most of the people collecting these are like 30 year old men. Like get some fucking class. It's like you could make, if you've got this money, you can easily make any collection good by believing in it. So it's like, why do people gravitate towards
00:25:43
Speaker
the dumbest shit, I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me. I mean, maybe it's just because most people involved in the game have no artistic sense, have probably never been to an art museum. You know, they're like finance pros, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like, it's like, that kind of shit depresses me, to be honest. But that being said, I do have hope that like,
00:26:13
Speaker
I mean, I had this kind of weird feeling that maybe there'll be like a wave where older projects, you know, I think there'll be a wave where older projects will have like a new time in the spotlight. I think that people just need to do a bit of research on like what was innovative, you know, and what remains innovative. Yeah. Yeah, no, I totally agree with that. I think that that,
00:26:44
Speaker
That kind of happened, I think in early 2022, people were getting into, I mean, the projects were like a year old, but there was a resurgence of a lot of cooler projects, I feel like. I mean, it is, yeah, it is hard to quantify the entire thing, but yeah, I agree with you. And I think that like, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, when you got into it though, were you like, were you,
00:27:13
Speaker
Were you considering like the tech bro vibe
Motivation Behind NFT Involvement
00:27:17
Speaker
at all? Or was it more like, I'm just trying to express myself in this new way with this technology that I'm interested in and I'm going for it and I'm, people like it. Well, the main goal was always to never compromise on my artistic integrity. And really what inspired me to make any of that shit was, I mean, I was, you know, I got into it through a friend as well and we were like,
00:27:42
Speaker
were shitcoining for a good eight months prior and we sort of like managed to get our ways into a couple of like trading groups and stuff like that which had you know guys with with deep pockets so it's kind of like it was quite serendipitous in that sense that we had these sort of early supporters who were actually quite like they had clout you know and we sort of I think we actually invented
00:28:10
Speaker
the honorary PFP, like we were doing that. It was either us or like this other project. I forget the name of it, but it was like kind of like this hand-drawn thing as well, but it was done on the computer. It was kind of like kind of, you know, scratchy stuff. I wasn't a huge fan, but I think we were using these marketing techniques
00:28:38
Speaker
And like, there was also, I mean, it was funny because like, I know that Charlotte or, or, uh, or, um, you know, one of the Malady people were like, you know, a group chat, giving away free mints. The board apes, uh, like Gargamel from the board apes was in our, was in our, uh, discord as well, shilling the board apes. And we all faded them because we were like this artist trash.
00:29:06
Speaker
which turned out to be a whack idea. But we faded the shit out of them. I think maybe one or two of us got into it and they made massive bags, but it was like, yeah, they were lurking in there. So that kind of thing gives me like a bit of hope that maybe we'll get recognized for that sort of early, you know, early, you know,
00:29:35
Speaker
trailblazing, I suppose. But it also, it depresses me because, you know, we could have been the board apes. And I think that in a different world, if I had had a bit more sort of business expertise at the time, I might've done things a lot different, you know? But, you know, we're still, we're kind of like, we're kind of like that rock and roll band that no one knows about, but all your favorite rock and roll stars love, you know?
00:30:06
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't think about it in
Cultural Phenomena in NFT Projects
00:30:09
Speaker
that way. I think it's like, you know, I think that it's like a lot of people know about Java forms. It's just that like, there's so much stuff that happens all the time. And it's like, it's just like, people are aware of that stuff. It's like, I feel like
00:30:29
Speaker
maybe a lot of much younger people got into this and like, you know, Maloney, Maloney became like a really big cultural thing. And that kind of, that whole thing to me kind of turned, there's, there's, there's interesting aspects of that and there's not, and I sort of like kind of got into some stuff with like urban people. I feel like there is cool stuff within certain worlds, you know, like, you know, niche groups of this, of the place are really cool. I mean, like,
00:31:01
Speaker
little swag world is pretty cool. I feel like you were referencing that earlier, you know, and that's like the super boss guy. Like, I don't know. I mean, super metal Mons and all that stuff. That was like coming out when I first got into it. Gushies, like all that stuff. I've always, I've always liked, uh, Bosch's stuff and things that he's, uh, he also is like a true artist. So I've always, and you know, it's like when you,
00:31:30
Speaker
look at the swag worlds, you know, I'm actually very impressed by them because they've got traits and yet they're all sort of AI gens. So it makes me wonder what's even going on. Like, did he make the layers make renditions like AI renditions of each layer? Like how do you get the edges to look so smooth without there being sort of like that? You know, when you're doing like a layer project, like,
00:32:00
Speaker
sometimes the fucking sunglasses don't fit on the character or whatever. So you've got this kind of shitty, bad Photoshop vibe or something. But when you look at the little swagworlds, you don't get any of that. And each one is actually very unique in its own right. So I'm very impressed by all that, to be honest. Yeah, I am as well. I don't know how. I was also thinking this exact same thing. Like how did they do it with the layers and the trades? Yeah, I mean, because if you look at, I mean, if you look at
00:32:30
Speaker
every single trait as well. They're like, they're different, right? They're like, the way I sort of saw it was maybe there was like, he was running the gen and was sort of taking like snapshots for each one, if that makes sense. Like it was, it was like new morphing. And he was, he had, was able to sort of get snapshots of each sort of slight variation in morph. So it gives each one very unique. And then make that on a different layer.
00:33:00
Speaker
And then put that on a different, each different layer. And maybe which covered the, what was behind it or. Yeah. Or like somehow figured out a way where. Yeah. Like it would just spit out loads and then maybe so did a curation job. I'm not sure. But yeah, it's, I mean, I think, I think what he did is, is very good. And just, yeah, I have a lot of respect for someone like that who, you know, puts the work in.
00:33:27
Speaker
And really is sort of trying to push the boundaries.
Admiration for Unique AI Art Projects
00:33:30
Speaker
I think that I'm very, I'm very bullish swag. Well, to be honest, I think, uh, I think he deserves more, uh, more people buying and looking at his stuff. For sure. I mean, I really liked the super metal months as well. That's really my alley. I love that. I love those so much. Um, it's a really cool thing.
00:33:55
Speaker
And I also, I like the Drefellas as well, just because they're like chaotic. And, you know, I was talking to a friend and we were saying, you know, we haven't really seen a collection that has this many kind of layers. And I guess for the Drefellas, the rarity is a bit more nebulous, right? So it's like, I don't think it's as easy to sort of pick out rares and buy rares, whatever. It's sort of like,
00:34:24
Speaker
you know, you just buy what you like, which I think is good. And I mean, at some point he thinks that maybe he could have done, they could have done like a smaller release for higher price. But I think by releasing them for so cheap, you know, he really cultivated a secondary market, which is kind of booming at the moment, which is always what you kind of want to do. But you know,
00:34:54
Speaker
Yeah. And also with Solana, I feel like it's the way I, yeah, I think about Solana as having a lot of people that have less money that are, that would like to mint, um, then people on ETH because it's just sort of been like a newly adopted chain that's gotten, that's gotten crazy and gotten really popular. So like the mint price on Solana is not like from what I've seen,
00:35:25
Speaker
from the mints is pretty cheap, you know, compared to a mint on East or something like that. But that's also just me kind of just thinking that's what I kind of think you're right. I think the most expensive NFTs on Solana, I'm not sure if it's the monkeys or if it's the mad lads or whatever, but you know, I think they sort of are capped around
00:35:52
Speaker
I think the highest collections are like 200 Solana or something, which is still a hefty price, but compared to, uh, compared to, uh, some of the sort of quote unquote blue chips of East, you know, they don't really, yeah, it's as of yet. We haven't really seen anything go crazy like that yet. Did you see the ordinals like the, um, I forget what it's called, but like this collection on the, on, on Bitcoin.
00:36:22
Speaker
the puppets. The puppets, yes. What do you think about that? It's probably like a CT inside a thing, but I mean, it's cool. I like the idea of Bitcoin ordinals purely for the fact that it brings, it makes like bored Bitcoin whales want to do something with their Bitcoin, you know, so I think that's good. I think
00:36:51
Speaker
I mean, it's also, it's so largely about community as well. Like, like obviously art for those puppets is nothing to write home about necessarily. It's like purposefully shitty, right? So what really gives that collection strength is the fact that you've got, you know, rich people aping in them. And I think ordinals, I mean, I'm, I'm having this internal conversation a lot about,
00:37:21
Speaker
you know, where we want to release the next project anyways. Like my heart says that we should stick. I should stick with Ethereum, you know, cause I'll probably get a better price, but you know, gas is so expensive now and really people don't have very much money yet. Uh, if they don't, if they don't see the chance for, uh, for games and they're going to be, you know, less inclined
Evolution of Crypto Trading Practices
00:37:47
Speaker
to, to buy them, you know,
00:37:51
Speaker
And I think the gas is just like you know for an NFT mint right now. I think you probably cost like 60 70 bucks and gas You know if it was above 50 quag or something Yeah, or to mint Yeah, yeah No, I still think I mean I think aetherium is becoming sort of this chain that will be used for NFT mints in a weird way because I feel like I
00:38:19
Speaker
enough people are bullish on it and it's the second biggest cryptocurrency. And I feel like with the L2s and all that stuff on Ethereum, you know, there's base, there's like all this stuff like these, you know, but I feel like there's nothing wrong with sticking with ETH to be honest. I mean, I think that it's like a lot of people don't decide just to switch chains, you know.
00:38:46
Speaker
completely with their entire bag and get off of it, I feel like. I'll say this for sure, it's definitely refreshing to use Solana, like I've been on Solana for a bit, just messing around and, you know, yeah, it's like, it's a pain in the ass when you're paying tons and tons and tons of money to, just to transact, you know, it's just, you know, I don't even know the ungodly amount of ethgas I've wasted over the years, you know.
00:39:16
Speaker
So it is for sure. No, I mean, that's also the reason why Solana coins are such trash because, uh, basically you've got people with less money. The volume's much higher with all the coins. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But people are literally like, um, jumping out with 10% gains. There's no sort of like, like the beautiful thing about last bull run was that
00:39:47
Speaker
like people believed that, you know, all crypto was going to go up forever. So there was like this sort of nonchalant trading mindset that allowed for a lot of coins, a lot of collections, a lot of everything to go up. But nowadays, like you've got trading bots, you've got, you know, much more robust
00:40:16
Speaker
you know, stop-loss tech and limit orders, all this shit. So it brings this like really mechanical sense to everything. And it's like, you can sense that going into any shit coin TG where every single DGN is just asking the same thing of every coin. It's like, first, there's like a recipe that you have to stick to. It's like people can't think outside the box
00:40:43
Speaker
And they can't like believe in something strongly because it's all technical to them in a sense. You know, and it's like, maybe that's the better way to do it. But if that is like the unanimous consensus, then like nothing is gonna really shine. You know what I'm saying? Besides a few big random shits like Pepe or whatever, you know, it's like, it's just, uh, I mean, maybe it just has to be more frothy.
00:41:13
Speaker
And that froth is just not there because everyone's sort of like traumatized and battle scarred from the bear markets, you know? And maybe it's just a matter of sort of coaxing that mindset out, out of everyone, you know? Yeah, I still think, yeah, I mean, I don't know, it's weird. It's like, I feel like
00:41:38
Speaker
A lot of it is with meme coins or whatever it's like sentiment, you know, so it's like if you sort of, for me, I feel like it's like, like, you can kind of see and speculate on the fact on something that is
00:41:55
Speaker
as momentum in some way. And then when it gains momentum, that brings it to life or something like that. But you're right. It's really easy to get in and out of these things, whereas with beef, it wasn't. And it was like you were kind of more like, I don't want to spend this gas to get out of this coin or to get out of this token right now. And by being limited by the high gas, it sort of calmed you down. Because you literally, you're like, oh, well, fuck, I've only got
00:42:24
Speaker
0.2 ETH in my world but it's not even enough to pay for the transaction and in the meantime everyone else is feeling that so price goes up and then once the price is at an acceptable rate you could sell or whatever but it's like you know taking into consideration the loss you're going to take from the gas right but yeah I mean Kelana annoys me so much because you know quality projects well first off like there's just
00:42:54
Speaker
So many, so many like, uh, malicious developers, right? That's like, that's always been another thing that pisses me off so much is that the vast majority of developers in the NFT world and in the shit coin world, I like criminal to a certain extent, you know, they're like, it's pure scam. And so when you're trying to compete with these scammers, it's like,
00:43:24
Speaker
shitty it's like you know in in the fine art world you know there's sure there's like scammers who are just good at schmoozing and their art sucks and they somehow make it but at least they're not like robbing people or rucking people you know it's like I don't know it's just it's just it's sometimes I just look at the whole crypto world and I just think it's all fucking bullshit
00:43:54
Speaker
and that all, pretty much everything is just a scam. But that's pretty jaded, so I'm trying not to think too much like that. No, I mean, I get what you're saying. I feel like my experience in the real art world, it's worse in some ways than, like, with the transparency of
00:44:21
Speaker
Here, people will dump your shit. People will make it quick flip. But the people that I know that are artists competing to get in group shows, to get represented by the gallery that they want to, that type of stuff, to me, really turns me off in a way. Yeah, it's kind of like dog show vibes. Why do I have to prove myself
00:44:51
Speaker
in like a social context for my art to be appreciated or something, you know?
Authenticity and Expression in NFTs
00:45:00
Speaker
That's the thing I like about all the NFTs or whatever like NFTs with what I consider like good quality art like that's the thing that I think is so cool about that because it's like
00:45:11
Speaker
It's, you could do it yourself, you can release it yourself, you know, it's all on you to promote it. Like you build a community, like you get people behind it, they're into the, they're into the what they see, you know, it's so immediate, you know, whereas like,
00:45:26
Speaker
I have no desire to go into gallery spaces and go to group shows or go to these places where in the small city that I live in, the same people are at all these events. And it's a really boring vibe that I find really uninspiring. And I don't really see anything that's that interesting to talk in a dated way. So it's like, you're combing through Twitter or you're combing through the internet and you're finding all this bullshit, but then it's like when you see something that you like, it really speaks to me.
00:45:54
Speaker
any time that good art speaks to you, it's profound in a cool way. And it doesn't happen all the time. So it's like getting people to rally behind a project and stuff like that, there's many things that have to be magically aligned in a way for it to work.
00:46:15
Speaker
But there's something that's more pure about it to me in the internet world, even though there's all these, in the myths of all these scams and rugs and all this crap, there's something that's more pure when a project that is good quality or something like that succeeds. And what does succeeding mean, really? Then there's that whole aspect of it where it's like,
00:46:41
Speaker
It means, what does it mean? That the floor price is high? That people traded it successfully and made money? I mean, like, who knows, really? Yeah, I don't really know. I mean, that's another thing, too, is that, you know, it became, like, trendy for NFT collectors to malign artist royalties, for instance, as if it was, like, some scam for, I mean,
00:47:10
Speaker
It's annoying because for the NFT artist who used Fiverr and is making 5% royalties on a collection, that's going to go nowhere. Yeah, that doesn't really seem like a, it seems like a bunch of money going to like someone who's A, not going to put it back into the ecosystem and B is just a scammer, right? But I mean, for real artists like you and I,
00:47:36
Speaker
royalties you know what we actually live off of you know like so I think that that's why I also think it's like shitty that people have to you know currently at least like the price of NFTs have to be pretty much as low as possible because you know I spend all this time making collection and maybe I pull 10 grand off that if I'm doing it selling them for real cheap you know but
00:48:07
Speaker
you know, that took a lot of energy and it also is like how, you know, I don't have like a, I don't have a day job, you know, so I'm, it's not like I have income that just floats in all the time. So if I do put out a collection, I need to make money on it. And that's going to sustain me for however long, you know? For sure. No, I totally understand that. And, you know, I mean, there's also this just loads of things about,
00:48:38
Speaker
about selling NFTs, which are difficult, you know, it's like, you know, people, I mean, I think I've always been a big proponent of AI, but I definitely foresee a lot of like shitty AI projects getting pumped out when NFTs sort of have like a strong second wind, you know, like, uh,
00:49:05
Speaker
So which is why I've really put a lot of effort in crafting my own engine that was basically relying on solely my input to come up with this new imagery. Yeah, no. And I mean, that's awesome. I feel like you're totally right about that. And sometimes I'll look at artwork
00:49:34
Speaker
from an artist on Twitter, and I'll send it to a friend that's an illustrator or something like that, and they'll be like, that's AI, dude. That's not real. And I won't even really know, which is crazy to me at this point, where I'm like, oh, I really thought that this person was spending all this time and effort to draw this really detailed thing. It's peace. And then they're like, no, it's not. And it's getting to the point with me where I'm like, I couldn't even tell that that was
00:50:03
Speaker
I thought that that was just like somebody was spending a ton of time doing that. That's kind of good, though. That's the part where I think maybe good AI art is the AI art that you can't tell is generated, right? The way I even see AI right now from an artistic application standpoint is that an artist can use AI to inform their physical work.
00:50:34
Speaker
So what I do sometimes is if I'm thinking about a painting, but I'm not quite sure exactly what it, like, you know, I've got these ideas in my head, but I can't visualize it yet. I can prompt my AI to sort of spit out, you know, loose ideas. And then I can use those as sort of like a study and make my own work. Right. And that's why I like.
00:50:58
Speaker
I mean, like for me, like I can always tell when something's AI generated for the most part, especially if it's made with mid journey or something, cause it just has that look. And obviously there's the artifacts, the AI artifacts that are dead giveaways, right? But it's like, um, like, you know, I think it it's gone a bit better, but hands used to be really dodgy. Like AI couldn't really recognize hands. So it was like giving these gnarled freaky hands. So you're like, okay, that's AI. And, uh, you know, you kind of have those sort of,
00:51:28
Speaker
that kind of like, it's kind of like a blended look. But I mean, these, these are kind of like, like the stable the human or what you feed when you feed it artwork and stuff like that, like the early, you know, you know, the company phone guy that you use like a skull phone or whatever, the guy that, yeah, he's a friend of mine. And like, I know that like you, yeah, he's, he's, I, he, he sent me some,
00:51:57
Speaker
I think of what it was, but you, I fed it, uh, the artists that I work with Marukuro's drawings and just experimented with the, what it would come out with, you know, with some text, like feeding it a library and then feeding it a library of drawings and then, and then, you know, with prompts added with prompts. And I know exactly what you're talking about with the hands and all the artifacts and all that stuff. I mean, this was like a year ago or something. So I feel like.
00:52:27
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know how much the technology has improved or what you've noticed in that apartment. I think it's improving at a frightening rate, to be honest. I mean, like, making the GAN forms, for instance, it would take way more processing power, way longer for much less interesting results, right?
00:52:57
Speaker
But nowadays, the engine that we're using is superb. You couldn't really tell that they were generated, as you said. I just want to stay on the cutting edge, and I don't want to become the victim to getting sort of...
AI Collaboration Enhancing Creativity
00:53:20
Speaker
I don't want to ever be in competition with AI. I only want to be in collaboration with it.
00:53:28
Speaker
I just take, I always take the necessary steps to ensure that, you know, whether that means really familiarizing yourself with the tech or whatever. Like I'm not afraid that AI is going to like phase out physical art because there's never going to be a time in history. I don't think where human art is less valued than, uh, generated art, you know?
00:53:56
Speaker
I just don't think it's, I just don't think it's going to happen. I think that human art will always have a higher value set to it, which is good. But that being said, you know, you think of yourself as like a cyborg when you use this tech, you know, it's like, you know, if you, if something is like helping you spend less of the grind time on a project and it's
00:54:25
Speaker
helping you put out your ideas quicker and more fluidly and more truthfully. That's good, right? Of course, yeah. It's a tool that, it's like an optimization tool that like lets you be more... Yeah, and it also like, but I mean, you know, I have very high standards when it comes to, you know, most things. And I think that,
00:54:53
Speaker
Yeah, I just think it's about like, if you really want to be serious and taken seriously, you need to and use AI, you need to really sort of customize your models and make them like a branded extension of yourself. Does that make sense? Of course. Yeah, no, I mean, that's yeah, you have to add your signature to it or it's just looks like
00:55:19
Speaker
crap or like meaningless that's on the timeline floating by your face or something. I don't even know how to say that correctly. But I think that you've been really successful in that in a way because you know, like this, that's what you're intending to do. Then you've succeeded in that. If that's for sure. I think other people know this. Well, no, I mean, it's cool. I think I think you actually give a fuck.
00:55:48
Speaker
about NFTs and not just, you know, happy beaver family or whatever. I think those people are very aware and I mean, that's my squad, you know. I would love, I mean, what I really want with this next project is that I feel like I need to be more collaborative with people that I actually align with and I also need to be
00:56:17
Speaker
I think people who are really in the same boat need to stick together in a really supportive way. I think one of the worst things that you can have really, and something that I've sort of reconciled with, is that you really can't let your ego get in the mix too much. Even if you really think you're the shit, you can't let that stop you from
00:56:48
Speaker
from forming a tribe or forging connections, you know, it's like, I don't know. When I was, when I was younger, I used to always, you know, cause I was, I was a musician too. So I was always like seeing all the other musicians who are roughly in my same bubble as competition. And I wasn't down to like even fuck with them, you know, cause I was like, you know, it was all about me, me and me. It was like, this is my vision, my path. I don't want to be tainted by anyone else.
00:57:17
Speaker
But that's a really bad way to think of it, I think. And it's like, I just think that I probably could have been a lot more successful in past endeavors if I was just a bit more open to being part of a group, you know?
Value of Artist Collaboration in NFTs
00:57:36
Speaker
Yes, that's true. I mean, but it's difficult as well. It's like, yeah, I'm also a musician. So it's like, I understand that for sure.
00:57:46
Speaker
It's weird. It's like, I think there's good things about having like an outsider mindset in some ways. Cause I feel like if it's like what I think is the most important thing in art in general or music or whatever and creative pursuits is to trust your instinct. And then once you don't trust your instinct and you have too many people, you know, providing their input.
00:58:09
Speaker
you can get really lost and you can kind of get mad at yourself for not trusting yourself. However, that doesn't really happen to you.
00:58:19
Speaker
necessarily what you're saying. Because I think it's good to collaborate with other people and stick together and support the people. The thing that I like the most about, when I came into this, Scarlet Fing really helped promote my first project, got me a dev, was really inviting, and actually gave me an opportunity to have an audience in some weird way, which was,
00:58:46
Speaker
like amazing because it just helped me get in the game really quickly and it was awesome and also all the other projects too you know and I do think that that's true that they should you know
00:59:01
Speaker
People that are like-minded should support each other in the most supportive way possible. I said support twice in a row there. But I agree with you in that way. I still think, yeah, it's a weird balancing act. It's a weird balancing act when it comes to having pretty different things that's unique and new.
00:59:26
Speaker
But I think the coolest part about the NFT world and the anonymous world and things like that is that it will support your project. If they like it, people will help. And it's like this nice... You don't really find that in the real art world at all, I find. I really don't think you do. It's totally cutthroat. And it's totally like... Also, I think there's less... In the traditional art world, there's less authority, but it's... Or there's less authority figures.
00:59:55
Speaker
the power is more concentrated with those figures, right? So it's like, whereas in the NFT world, you can kind of come at it from a whole mess of different angles, you know, and it gives people, I think, you know, it makes, it allows someone who would never succeed in the traditional art world, a chance to make money off their art. And I think that's egalitarian and good.
01:00:24
Speaker
I mean, it's more shitty art out there in the world that we have to deal with, but it still gives these artists a chance, you know? Yeah. There's no way to stop the shitty art, I think. Not even worth considering, or like, kind of... No, I mean, when I went to art school, you know, I was really... I always get really bummed out because, you know, the school that I went to was
01:00:49
Speaker
good but it was large so there was just so many people in the school who were just absolute trash and I would like go to a critique and you'd have to spend time critiquing art that was clearly made like last minute as a homework assignment no passion and you had to like give this art some time which
01:01:18
Speaker
I don't know. It's like, is that even fair to force someone to do that? If the artwork is so, uh, uncared for, you know, but at the same rate, I am, you know, it's like, who am I to be a decade about it? Like if you want to spend your money or your parents' money going to art school and have no ambitions to actually succeed or get better than whatever, right? It's like.
01:01:49
Speaker
It's whatever. I just, you know, I'm all about expression, but if you're going to express yourself, even if you're not very good at making art, just make it fucking truthful and authentic. You know what I'm saying? Like if it's even a shred authentic, I'll respect it so much more. Like I respect someone who is authentic and a worse artist and someone who is better than like pandering in some way or
01:02:20
Speaker
trying to appeal to a certain person or something, you know? I just wish that that authenticity was more apparent in this world because it seems like authentic artists get nudged out of the way in favor of people who just are either excellent marketers or excellent business people, which I'm, you know, in this particular field,
01:02:51
Speaker
There's plenty of people like that, right?
01:02:55
Speaker
Yeah. And they're like 12 years old. Yeah, exactly. That's the thing that freaks me out is that sometimes I'm like, how is this person so on top of the game in this crazy way that I would never even consider? Because they have some weird marketing genius as a child or something like that. Or they just understand that flow of education.
01:03:23
Speaker
That's a whole different thing. The marketing thing can be artistic in a really interesting and unique way that is almost like
01:03:38
Speaker
someone trying to find their voice or something like that. For me, that part of it is interesting to me in a weird way because I think that it's like if you're building a community, if you're trying to build an audience, there's different things. At the end of the day, you're trying to get people to see the artwork, to understand it in some way and see it.
01:03:59
Speaker
For me, in the IRL world, outside of museums, outside of institutions, just galleries, private galleries, which is the proliferation, I feel like there's so much of that. That, to me, is these little bubbles that are almost unnoticed in some way.
01:04:20
Speaker
that just their own little ecosystem that where the corruption just continues on or something. And the people that kiss ass can continue to thrive in that environment in some bizarre way. Whereas the egalitarian aspect of NFTs and the internet gives the authentic artist a chance to shine in some way, even if it's still difficult.
01:04:48
Speaker
There's so many eyes that can see it, and I think that that part about it is somewhat... Yeah, I mean, I think also the idea of being able to reinvent yourself very easily is also kind of cool, you know? So it's like if you... I mean, I've thought about, you know, doing like releases under different names and stuff, but then I also, you know, I don't particularly want to do that because I'm happy with, you know, what I've released so far, but it's always an option, you know, if you...
01:05:19
Speaker
If you want to be coming from a different angle, you never actually have to reveal that you're the same person, even if it looks like two different people's art. It's nice because you're never in the spotlight in the same way that an artist is.
Reinvention Through NFTs
01:05:45
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you can constantly reinvent yourself if you want to. And people will have no idea. You could also not do that. In the fine art world, you know, if you try to reinvent yourself, your gallerist will fucking throw a fit. You know, if you're selling work, you know, like there'll be these forces that are like, you know, in the fine art world that you've got these forces who are saying, look, dude, you've got a show in six months.
01:06:14
Speaker
you need to like make more work that looks like this because last row, this painting sold really quickly. So you've got this kind of like pressure to sort of stay in your lane or something like that, which I think, you know, with anonymity doesn't matter because you could just sort of be someone else.
01:06:42
Speaker
Yeah, that's kind of comforting, you know, that's great. It's extremely comforting because it's like, yeah, you're locked up to all this baggage. And that's so much stress and pressure. And then you have to sort of work within yourself, which is really strange. I think for the majority of artists and like, how is that?
01:07:03
Speaker
How can you be expressive in that way at all? You're chained to yourself, all of your interactions and stuff like that in your history. It's the thing that's really exciting about it. That'll always be a good thing about it. I wish that royalties still existed in NFTs. I wish that that was a thing. That would be a nice aspect as well, but at least you can always have a fresh start if you want to.
01:07:28
Speaker
get out of your lane, change lanes or whatever. I mean, I would, I would love, uh, I would love job reforms. I'm really praying that job reforms has like a second wave sometime soon because a we've got a legacy contract. So we still make royalties and B. Uh, I think they, I think forms need a second looking at, you know, I feel like I've just, I get pissed because I feel like they just weren't people just didn't
01:07:58
Speaker
Get them, you know? How do you have a legacy contract? I've never even heard of that. Is it just custom? No, no, basically any contract that was made prior to OpenSea, prior to OpenSea, you know, basically cutting off royalties, those contracts remain if purchased through OpenSea as like a royalty.
01:08:29
Speaker
creating assets, you know, so you get a cut from every sale. I didn't know that. Yeah, I mean, you know, I think a lot of people trade on other platforms these days, I think OpenSea is kind of, I mean, I think OpenSea probably is still the main one, especially for people who are sort of normies. But yeah, I mean, I think, I think that taking out the royalties was pretty, pretty, I mean, I was just
01:08:58
Speaker
pandering to trade is basically right exactly yeah it sucked like if you can be able to make passive income from the volume of that like as an artist that's like amazing you know and like any new technology that helps independent art should be
01:09:24
Speaker
that should be, yeah, it should just be a good thing. It's crazy to me that people think that, people just look at the headlines and charts and stuff and people think that, to me it's still very promising that
01:09:40
Speaker
In the NFT world, there's still so many projects and there's still like this weird subculture of people where they can express themselves in a weird free way on Twitter or something like that and be anonymous. Like that to me, like that that exists is like, there was like a gap to me of time where that didn't exist or that existed or it was not even as popular as it was now, where it was like, there was no place that was,
01:10:07
Speaker
as free as that, in a way, or open-sized views. For sure, for sure. You know? So, like, that is pretty crazy to me. That, like, I'm trying to think of, like, the years, but it's, like, it doesn't really matter. Also, like, NFTs, at least they used to be, like, a way for an artist to actually make big money. You know what I'm saying? And, like, I still think you can make big money on a mint.
01:10:34
Speaker
but you basically have to like, like on this next collection of mine, I want to, I want to charge something like, you know, somewhat substantial because that money is going to help, you know, it's going to help me. I put, you know, I can put that money back into the projects and pay my rent. I can also, you know, buy nice things. Like, it's like, uh, it's,
01:11:02
Speaker
there's almost seems like it seems like there's less unless you like I guess what a lot of people do is like ape a bunch of their own collection in the very beginning and then sell it off as like their sort of way of supplementing their mint cost or whatever you know but yeah I think that I think you should should go into a situation willing to pay a few hundred dollars for a mint
01:11:33
Speaker
And then actually like cherish it, you know, I just think there was not enough cherishing going on Because all the I was how do you get people to cherish? How do you get people to cherish? It's crazy. It's like yeah, it's nuts. It's like no, I mean, I totally agree with you. I think that like III think that that will still exist. I Think that that will still persist. I just think that like we experienced an extreme
01:12:02
Speaker
bear market where crypto was like faded by the entire world as like a scam and there was these huge big players that like up everything up basically you know for it to give it a really bad reputation and then like now it's like
01:12:20
Speaker
We have this, I feel like this is like an important year in some way or like things are, you know, crypto is growing up. Like retail hasn't come back in yet. It's like clear. We haven't gotten to all time highs or whatever, but it's like for people that like, for someone like me, I got into it like at the beginning of the bear market and like I just was like, I was so firmly
01:12:41
Speaker
I had such a firm belief that it wasn't going to go away and that it was good technology and there were so many good aspects of it. I'm not even that bullish of a person in general on anything. I just think it's cool. The fact that it had such a tarnished vibe as soon as I got into it, I feel like
01:13:05
Speaker
It was like, you know, you can't talk about it in front of people. It's like, I don't like it when I hear the word, you know, I don't like it when it's referenced in like movies and stuff. It's just like, it's like totally weird. It's like, it's like a, it's like a, it's a lot of regular people. It's just a big fucking joke, right? It's
NFTs as Legitimate Fine Art Pieces
01:13:21
Speaker
like, I don't think anyone who's not at least has a few toes in the crypto game thinks that it's like that good. But I remember like at the end of, or like towards the end of the,
01:13:35
Speaker
the last ball run, you know, people were, every person in the world was talking about NFTs, you know? And this kind of thing also annoys me a little bit because I mean, since NFTs are so dependent on market conditions, it means that now that there's been a pretty obscene NFT crash, it makes a lot of participants jumpy, you know?
01:14:05
Speaker
when they shouldn't really be. Cause it's like, it's like, you have to just realize we have to like make NFTs less of an asset and more about fine art. And that for me, that just means making extremely high quality stuff, staying cutting edge and proving that you put some effort into something, you know?
01:14:29
Speaker
No, totally, for sure. And it's all divided now. There's the other NFT world that is, to me, the most exciting in a way that's like, it's hard to even label it that. But to me, it's more of a kind of 4chan weird vibe of the internet where people are just spazzing out and stuff. And it's like, there's bad and good art that is involved with it.
01:14:59
Speaker
harm-band and dorpal, like, you know, NFT artists, like, world of stuff that's really insular. See, that's one, that's one thing I didn't fucking understand. It was like, how did that, there was certain NFT heads and artists in the bull run that were like selling one of ones for like 40 ether pop. And you look at the work and you're like, what the fuck? It's like this person,
01:15:29
Speaker
is trash, like absolute fucking trash. And they're selling their shit for 40 apart as fine art. Like I was trying to get my, that's like what I would prefer to do. Honestly, it's like, I would much rather be doing that. I just have no idea how these people got into sort of power. I mean, I guess they were sort of like net artists prior to NFTs that had a following.
01:15:53
Speaker
I mean, not even, I feel like. I feel like not even. Maybe they were doing it for some time. I mean, it's weird. It's like there's the subsets of this thing, you know? And some of them are like, I'm less bullish on that world than on the more creative, playful, outside of the art world thing. Like, that's just more my cup of tea or something, you know? But I don't know. I mean, I guess, yeah, it's weird.
01:16:24
Speaker
It's collectors. There's some collectors that were willing to pay that much. I mean, I'm in the same boat. What I love about NFTs, what I've always loved about NFTs is the randomized mint. Because I've always been a gamer. At least when I was younger, I used to game a lot. And I was really into RPGs and stuff like that. So I always loved
01:16:49
Speaker
the items. I always loved the aspect of trading the items. I always loved the aspect of, you know, I was always into my magic cards and stuff like that. So I was always really into, you know, that feeling when you open up a booster pack and you're like, Oh shit, you know, I've got this, I've got this rare fucking card. I've never seen it before. It's like really, you know, it's exciting. And that's, that for me is like the essence of good NFTs.
01:17:19
Speaker
I think that, you know, I still think that, you know, minting NFTs and getting something that was rare is like exhilarating, you know. And it doesn't, it's sort of like learning the balance between that and actually providing imagery of substance, you know, which makes an NFT like super exciting to me.
01:17:45
Speaker
and lore and all the stuff attached to it, you know, and like the weird mystery behind it, like that too. It's like totally cool. And like people dismiss it as like this trading card thing too. And then there's like, I just think like, yeah, it's pretty cool. But I do think that it would be cool if there was some NFT artists that were doing one ones that were really like selling for a lot. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, like Terraforms is cool to me. I like all that stuff. I like that discord. I like,
01:18:19
Speaker
That's me is like pretty The math castle stuff that to me is like pretty like advanced and I feel like also came out at a similar time than just yeah, I think so roughly Yeah, I've been I've been toying the idea even doing like a sort of spontaneous release where
01:18:43
Speaker
I'd whip up a contract that's, you know, the same kind of style as like a random mint contract, but having the limit, having the run be like 20 and having each one be like a very ornate piece. Um, but you know, there's literally 20 and then you charge like, you know, a thousand dollars per, but it's like extremely limited. I wonder if, I don't know if that would be appealing to people because
01:19:13
Speaker
I think part of the fun of the NFTs is having lots of variety in that sort of enables like a larger community to be involved as opposed to a very small, you know, like 10 people or something like that. But I still think that hasn't really been done. So maybe I'll do that. Maybe I'll do that in the next six months thing as well, like work on these kind of like addition releases. The only problem with that is that
01:19:43
Speaker
I feel like that really kind of prevents a secondary market from spawning. I'm not sure about that. I think that it's like... I imagine if I put out like three, let's say like over two months or three months I released three different contracts and each one was filled with like
01:20:12
Speaker
You know, uh, yeah, 10 pieces, but you charged an actual substantial amounts. And then I could sort of use those to fund other projects or whatever. Like, I think you might buy that. Maybe like my most ardent supporters would be into that.
01:20:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think that it's like you just got to believe that that's what you want to do and you'll do it like I think that like the one shitty thing about the market conditions thing is like worrying about that or thinking about that too much and I think that like if you want to release stuff like that you should just do it you know what I mean and like you know you
01:20:49
Speaker
I think like not, anytime I've been successful in releasing something I've just like fully believed in and like done it. And of course I've considered like the collection size and the pricing and stuff like that, you know? But like at the end of the day, I don't necessarily think that it's like, I think that those things are somewhat important, but I think that it's like, you just got to stick to your guns. Like I've never wanted to lower the price of a mint, you know?
01:21:18
Speaker
during a mint. That's never been something I've been excited about doing or wanting to do. And I don't think it's cool at all. It's like weird. And like, I also think that like, people look at anything as a money grab. And if everything's like a scam, then it's like,
01:21:40
Speaker
the art speaks for itself and the intent behind the art speaks for itself. So it's like, to me, it's like everything already is the scam in the world. So it's like, whatever, just have fun and do your thing or something. But I do think that knowing in your gut what you think is good or not and sticking to that is so important. It sounds cheesy as fuck, what I'm saying, but it's just, I think that it's like,
01:22:06
Speaker
It's true, you know, um, no, no, for sure. It is kind of annoying, like thinking about dilution and stuff like that. Like I, you know, we've released quite a few contracts that like, maybe some people haven't even really heard about. Like we put out one called the turbulence, which is still open, but we were sort of experimenting. Yeah. You know, I think that's still open and we were like, uh,
01:22:36
Speaker
For that project, we were experimenting with our own sort of layers. Like we took the Goblinies, put them into a GAN, generated the bodies. So each of the bodies, you know, there's only like, there's like maybe 10, 15 different sort of bodies. Then I made a bunch of layers over top of it. And I thought that was kind of like a, I mean, one thing I can say about myself is that even if one of these projects isn't a major success,
01:23:06
Speaker
You know, we always try to, we always try to inject it with a new sense of novelty, which I think is always something you should do. And honestly, I don't give a fuck, like, I mean, if, if I have a mint that's open, you know, eventually it's going to be like the fucking moon cats, some enterprising zoomer, or even, you know, younger person is going to see it one day by snooping and then suddenly it's going to be a thing. Right. So it's like, uh, I think what,
01:23:35
Speaker
goes around comes around eventually it's like so yeah as you said I think it's always just I don't think you should ever really be thinking about you know scarcity and stuff like that necessarily it's like I mean like I would love I still feel like we haven't put out a project that was truly like I always wanted like a to release a project with a really active secondary market because I think
01:24:04
Speaker
that is the kind of thing that makes you remain relevant or something, right? Because once the mint is sold out, like the secondary market is what keeps people really engaged more so than just like being an active dev, right? It's like, but at the same rate, in order to facilitate a secondary market, you often have to compromise deeply by either cutting your own take significantly
01:24:35
Speaker
You know, compromising on whatever aspects, right? And a lot of the projects now, like that mad lads thing or like some of this stuff that's popping off on Solana, like they're they're offering like airdrop tokens to people that hold and stuff. So it's like, not exactly about the appreciation of the pieces. It's more of like a money thing. But Java forms has a high trading volume on ETH, like
01:25:06
Speaker
me at least. That's pretty good. I know what you mean though. I know what you mean. I also would want that too for the projects that we release at the same time. I would love to have a crazy trading model. I just think that's totally possible. I think it's like one of it at some point. There's always that... That's how I think about it in a weird way. I feel like
01:25:31
Speaker
I always think about the output levels of consistency and how frequently you release and stuff and things like that. I feel like, in some weird way, you could release a project once, twice a month if you wanted to. And one could top off a presentation, but it would take a ton of work, and you would need to work with multiple people or something like that. You would just be grinding all the time. But I think that the thirst for people's
01:26:01
Speaker
desiring of new projects in the space is always there. I don't think anyone's ever tired. No one's like, oh, no, not another new thing, whatever. So I feel like that's a weird mindset. I don't have that mindset, but I want to thicken more in the terms of that mindset. I feel like people are always excited about new things and new projects constantly. Oh, definitely. And it's also just going to become a lot easier for us to sell as the market gets better.
01:26:30
Speaker
I mean, uh, you know, I was surprised that we were able to sell all the goblinies pretty much in the deepest of red markets. So I have faith. I mean, I think the turbotlinies were kind of like, I think I literally dropped that at like when, when BTC was like 1500, you know, or 15,000. So it was like the worst sentiment. Um, but also, I mean, I think, I think that I could have fine-tuned that to be a bit less.
01:27:00
Speaker
Because I was really, I mean, I made that, you know, I thought that I was, I was trying to be innovative, but also like, I think I may made too many of them, for instance. And, uh, you know, it would have been better just to make less, have the collection close. But, you know, I mean, that stays open. Who knows? Maybe someone mints it in the future. Who knows? But it's like, uh, it's, it's really hard. It's really hard to, it's really hard to sort of come up with the perfect,
01:27:31
Speaker
conditions for your mint, right? It's impossible. You might have come up with an idea, you know, when you first saw the project and then once you get to the time when you're about to release, the med is completely changed and you're suddenly like, fuck, like, uh, I have to like adapt this to kind of fit with what other projects are doing, you know?
01:28:00
Speaker
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's weird to think about that. I mean, like people jump really fast because it's technology. So people jump really fast from thing to thing. Like some NFT collection could be popping off on like some obscure new L1. And like, you would think maybe I should do that too. Or maybe that's a good idea. Or
01:28:23
Speaker
But I definitely agree with you about the ERC 404s. And also, that project, the ERC 404 was ripped off from this dude, Sarek. I got fucking rugged on that show. I bought the Uniswap emeralds. And I was up tremendously. And then some fucking, I don't know if it was a rug or if it was some code. But you couldn't buy more than one. So the price just dumped out.
01:28:54
Speaker
Yes, I digress I Don't even know yeah, I didn't I didn't participate in that but But I do agree with you about like the fact that it's like it's just fractionalized NFTs but like you people just look at the chart and they don't necessarily I don't really understand what the fuck was going on because It's like you
01:29:18
Speaker
saw these projects that had like insane liquidity, but it wasn't actually there or something. It was like, because there's no, there were so many like shit ERC 404 projects that popped up where the liquidity was like millions, right? And you're, there's no way that these devs have that money. So I don't know. I had no idea how the whole thing worked, to be honest. It was like, and then there was also like some way that you could basically rug
01:29:48
Speaker
as a developer by dumping your NFTs as NFTs. And then like, it would just basically, yeah, like the liquidity would just be gone or the price would like plummet insanely, right? So yeah, I don't even know, but that's fucked up. But I feel like that's, that could happen in some weird way to a lot of projects anyway. I don't know. It's weird.
01:30:17
Speaker
Is there anything like thing that you want to say like at the end or like, what do you think? Is there any last words? Yeah, I want to, I want to keep positive. I want to say a shout out to all of the form family. Shout out to all the Avant NFT heads. Shout out to Mesonote. You know, I'd say just, we're in it for the long haul. You know, we're trailblazers. We don't compromise. We're punk. We're DIY.
01:30:47
Speaker
We put our effort in. We've got our fucking, we're in the trenches 24-7, so expect some good stuff and expect the best stuff actually. Thank you, Brother Gan, for the interview. My pleasure. It was cool. And I appreciate your time a lot. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.