Transcript
Speaker: Good evening, I'm Sarah.
Speaker: And I'm Jen.
Speaker: And we have another late night edition of Unstable Moms.
Speaker: As usual, we're going to start with some Would You Rather.
Speaker: And I got some Halloween ones because it's almost spooky season and I'm ready.
Speaker: I am too.
Speaker: I mean, you're just going to get old, so I don't know why you're excited.
Speaker: I know, but it's a better time.
Speaker: And plus, I won't be as hot.
Speaker: Oh my gosh.
Speaker: I'm so tired of melting.
Speaker: Yeah, no kidding.
Speaker: So John, John, John, we went to high school with him.
Speaker: He posted on Facebook.
Speaker: He's up in like Seattle now, I think.
Speaker: And he was like 71 and it feels like 71.
Speaker: I was like, we're melting down here.
Speaker: I think I saw that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: 71 would be amazing.
Speaker: He was like, well, we don't have AC.
Speaker: And I was like, I would take 71 with no AC.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Cause you could just open the windows and it'd be fine.
Speaker: Or a fan.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Or take a cool shower and then it would feel good.
Speaker: Here you take a cool shower and go outside and you're sweating again.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: Let's see.
Speaker: Ugh.
Speaker: Would you rather be forced to eat lobster brains or alligator hearts, fear factor style?
Speaker: Your face.
Speaker: Oh my God.
Speaker: I don't want to eat either of those things.
Speaker: Um, I don't know.
Speaker: I feel like the lobster brains would taste less like iron and blood maybe.
Speaker: And I could just swallow it.
Speaker: Do I have to chew?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: You're just, you don't have to chew anything that you eat.
Speaker: So, and then what was the other one?
Speaker: Or alligator holes.
Speaker: I also, lobster brains would be smaller.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: So you could just swallow it and not have to chew.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: So I guess I'll pick the lobster brains too, only because they would be a smaller piece of whatever.
Speaker: A smaller portion?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: No way.
Speaker: That's disgusting.
Speaker: And also alligator is really chewy.
Speaker: The piece I had last time we went to New Orleans, I'm not a huge fan of it, but it's super chewy.
Speaker: And it just, the texture threw me off because my brain wouldn't turn off and be like, it's not alligator.
Speaker: It's not alligator.
Speaker: I think I've tried alligator and I wasn't necessarily a fan either.
Speaker: I mean, we've had like alligator sausage po' boy for in New Orleans.
Speaker: And that was really good.
Speaker: But like the fried alligator ball things that you get in the French Quarter, not so great.
Speaker: Yeah, maybe because the po' boy has a bunch of other stuff with it.
Speaker: Well, it's also like ground into a sausage, so.
Speaker: Oh, well, yeah, that too.
Speaker: So last week during our post-show banter, we got onto the topic of how deranged Jennifer is.
Speaker: And she said she likes to go online to like the Department of Criminal Justice website and look up all of the inmates that have been executed and see what their last words were.
Speaker: And sometimes it shows like their last meals and stuff.
Speaker: So we thought that's a great idea.
Speaker: We'll just do all of their murders because they're not on death row for like, I don't know, handing out candy.
Speaker: I mean, one of them is, but you know, I'll get to that one.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: Yeah, I told you I had a Halloween one to do.
Speaker: Yeah, I know, but I didn't know it had anything to do with handing out candy.
Speaker: I mean, tis the season, almost.
Speaker: So, I don't want to, like, highlight the criminals or the people on death row, because obviously they're criminals.
Speaker: But sometimes I run into the situations where there aren't a lot of information about the victims and, like, the...
Speaker: hype about the murder, I guess.
Speaker: Hype.
Speaker: So all of the like fanfare, I guess, or all of the details around the murder kind of overshadows the victim.
Speaker: So I'm going to try and get more information about the victim in the cases, but I do what I can.
Speaker: So yeah, it also depends probably how old it is.
Speaker: Because I feel like for a long time, the news always just focused on the
Speaker: the criminal and not necessarily the victims.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And I feel like now they are more into trying to get information about the victim out and who they were, but some of these are a lot older.
Speaker: So that wasn't always the case.
Speaker: And thankfully I like use newspapers.com a lot.
Speaker: So there's a lot of news articles and things like that.
Speaker: And there are obituaries and stuff that I can find.
Speaker: So that's helpful.
Speaker: I mean, I never would have thought the media would, uh,
Speaker: be interested in sensationalizing a horrific crime for a story but you know so we're still gonna do our paranormal stuff and i have a couple of things brewing in the works um so that will still happen and we still have other stories besides the death row crimes um but these ones will like sprinkle in a little sprinkle action going on everybody loves sprinkles
Speaker: But I also won't be doing these in order, and I'm not sure if I will do every one, so we'll figure it out.
Speaker: Oh, there's way too many for you to do all of them.
Speaker: So again, this one is the murder of David Gregory, and he was born in Fort Worth, Texas on March 29th of 1950 to Norma and Thomas Gregory.
Speaker: Together, they had a total of four children, including David.
Speaker: And then David married his wife, Shirley, on July 12th of 1971, when David was 21 and Shirley was the ripe old age of 17.
Speaker: Together, they had two, yeah, these teenage brides.
Speaker: I don't get it.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't get it either.
Speaker: Again, I wasn't driving at 17. 17.
Speaker: Oh, well, I was.
Speaker: I was driving at 16, but... So together, they had two children, a daughter named Rebecca and a son named David.
Speaker: In 1976, David worked as a mechanic at Danny Sides' used car lot in Fort Worth.
Speaker: On the afternoon of December 14, 1976, a man in a trench coat came into the dealership looking for a car.
Speaker: Go figure.
Speaker: Go figure.
Speaker: Now it used to be common for the salesperson to go with a customer for test drives.
Speaker: I don't think they do that now.
Speaker: Do they?
Speaker: No, I think they like, do they keep your driver's license?
Speaker: That wouldn't make any sense because you're driving.
Speaker: I think they keep your driver's license, but also with GPS now, like they're like, take it.
Speaker: I don't care.
Speaker: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker: But you buy cars more than I do.
Speaker: So yeah.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: I can't remember the last time that I bought one.
Speaker: I think he went with us.
Speaker: This is going to sound really stupid, but the last time I bought my car and I didn't even test drive it, I was just like, I want that one.
Speaker: Can we do the paperwork soon, girl?
Speaker: It doesn't even matter.
Speaker: I just want that one.
Speaker: It doesn't.
Speaker: I needed third row seats, and it was affordable.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Okay, so...
Speaker: Scourge on back to the story.
Speaker: Scooch?
Speaker: Scourge?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: So anyway, everyone was busy at the car lot, so they sent David with the man for the test drive.
Speaker: The man driving the car stops at the convenience store where there is a man and a woman with a vehicle that had broken down.
Speaker: The male then gets into the vehicle with David and the male driving the car.
Speaker: And David was then driven to the New Lincoln Motel at 451 East Rosedale in Fort Worth.
Speaker: One of the men displayed a gun and forced David into room 17 at gunpoint.
Speaker: So at around 6.30 p.m., the wife of the hotel manager reports hearing gunshots and immediately calls police.
Speaker: Meanwhile, another witness snags the license plate of the car and it speeds away, which would obviously lead back to the used car dealership.
Speaker: So when police arrive, they find David lying on the bed covered with blood spatter with his wrists and ankles bound with tape.
Speaker: and a large piece of tape over his mouth, and at least one bullet wound in the head.
Speaker: Police noted that there was no sign of a struggle and no spent shell casings.
Speaker: Police believed he had been executed with a large caliber pistol.
Speaker: I should have probably given a trigger warning.
Speaker: Anyway, what were you going to say?
Speaker: Yeah, maybe.
Speaker: Oh, I was going to say that's terrible because all he was trying to do was work.
Speaker: And then he just dies and he gets killed.
Speaker: That's terrible.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: And it's not like it is today where you have GPS or could track somebody or call somebody.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah, it's terrible.
Speaker: So when the police interviewed the wife of the hotel manager, she stated that room 17 had been empty with no new guests checking in.
Speaker: And this will be a trigger warning.
Speaker: I guess it's an old motel.
Speaker: They don't have electronic keys, I would assume.
Speaker: Oh, so they probably just like broke into it.
Speaker: Probably.
Speaker: I would assume so.
Speaker: So I'll give a trigger warning for graphic content.
Speaker: The medical examiner later revealed that David's cause of death was a massive cerebral contusion and intracranial hemorrhage resulting from two gunshot wounds to the head.
Speaker: And his manner of death was obviously listed as a homicide.
Speaker: Because I don't think anybody could shoot themselves in the head twice.
Speaker: And if you're bound, how are you going to do that?
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: That would also make it challenging.
Speaker: Just a little bit.
Speaker: Just a little bit.
Speaker: Meanwhile, two men were seen outside of a liquor store in the area, one of which was in a trench coat.
Speaker: The nighttime manager noticed them and became suspicious when one of the males perused the store.
Speaker: She thought they might be trying to rob the store, so she asked them to leave.
Speaker: And he gave no objections.
Speaker: And on his way out, the manager noticed a large caliber pistol in his belt.
Speaker: That word did not want to come out of my mouth.
Speaker: Caliber.
Speaker: Caliber.
Speaker: caliber words they're hard sometimes let's see if i can let's see if i can muster the rest of it manage to get the rest muster manage see if i can manage to get the rest of these words out of my mouth so back outside there were a couple of witnesses that noticed the commotion and were able to get the license plate of the vehicle these people were like so on top of it every single place they've been they're getting the license plate
Speaker: And I can't remember a license plate to save my life.
Speaker: No pen intended.
Speaker: I would have to take a picture and even then it's iffy.
Speaker: It would probably be blurry.
Speaker: It's blurry.
Speaker: Or I have to like come up with a song to remember the numbers.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I don't think that quickly on my feet.
Speaker: No, me either.
Speaker: I wouldn't even think like, oh, I need to look at their license plate.
Speaker: The last thing on my mind in a situation like that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I would just, I don't know.
Speaker: I'm so nosy.
Speaker: I would just be watching and then I'd be like, oh, fuck, I probably need to get the license plate number.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: But anyway, they, of course, called the police.
Speaker: And when the police arrived, witnesses gave the officers the license plate number and stated that one of the men had a sawed off shotgun.
Speaker: So also, side note, did you know that the 911 call system wasn't around until 1968?
Speaker: I did not know that.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And it wasn't used like not that long ago.
Speaker: Well, it wasn't even used in Texas until 1987.
Speaker: You're older than 911 in Texas.
Speaker: That's crazy.
Speaker: So now you're older than Google and you're older than 911 in Texas.
Speaker: So did they just call the sheriff's office or the police station if they needed a cop?
Speaker: Or emergency services.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So you had to have the local seven digit phone number for whatever area you were in to call police or fire department or the emergency services.
Speaker: So police had a number, fire department had a number.
Speaker: And of course, they weren't the same number.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That seems like a waste of time to have to dial four more numbers.
Speaker: And of course, it was only seven digits because back then you didn't require the area code.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But then I guess it wasn't 911 that they called.
Speaker: They called police.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because this was in 76.
Speaker: Yeah, because you didn't have to have the area code until 2013 in Texas.
Speaker: I remember when that change happened because I was like, what?
Speaker: Well, yeah, and like Austin ended up getting another area code because we have too many people.
Speaker: Do we?
Speaker: Yeah, it's 512 and 737.
Speaker: Oh, I guess that's true.
Speaker: I just thought that was like a voice over IP.
Speaker: So it was like an internet number.
Speaker: And that's why I declined them all because I'm like, scammer.
Speaker: Whenever I see somebody has a 737 number, I'm like, either you're really young or you aren't from here.
Speaker: Well, maybe I should answer those periodically.
Speaker: If it's important, I'll leave a message.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: And also another fun fact about 911 in Texas, even as early as 1999, 2000, only 95% of Texas were
Speaker: was on like the local, not the local, but the 911 system.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: Crazy.
Speaker: Like those small towns probably just didn't have it.
Speaker: They probably just call their sheriff's office.
Speaker: Probably.
Speaker: Probably.
Speaker: And then going back to area codes, another fun fact, because I'm full of them tonight.
Speaker: The first area codes in Texas were received in 1947.
Speaker: And they were 214, 512, 713, and 915.
Speaker: Do you know where all those are?
Speaker: Nope.
Speaker: Dallas.
Speaker: I have no idea.
Speaker: Austin, Houston, and down by the valley.
Speaker: All over the place.
Speaker: What's that song?
Speaker: I have different hoes and different area codes.
Speaker: I got hoes.
Speaker: in different area codes clearly i don't because i don't even know the song well i don't either now i have look anyway let's get this train back on the tracks is it tracks or is it track train on the track train on the tracks i mean i think both yeah he would know he does he works with train exactly
Speaker: So witnesses gave police the license plate numbers and it comes back to the car that was stolen from the dealership when David was kidnapped.
Speaker: The car was found on a road called Chennault, Chennault, C-H-E-N-N-A-U-L-T.
Speaker: And the residents stated that it had been there for approximately three hours, give or take.
Speaker: Later on, about 2 a.m.,
Speaker: The manager's wife from the motel notices that the two men have come back to the motel.
Speaker: But when police arrived, the men were already gone.
Speaker: But wouldn't you know, another person with their shit together was quick and got the license plate number.
Speaker: How?
Speaker: That is three in one night.
Speaker: This was like... Maybe they... Because they didn't have like other distractions like we do now.
Speaker: It's true.
Speaker: Was cable a thing yet?
Speaker: Or did the TV still shut off at a certain time?
Speaker: But also it's 2 a.m.
Speaker: Who's awake at 2 a.m.?
Speaker: I guess people at motels.
Speaker: Yes, especially at sketchy motels.
Speaker: Because it sounds like a sketchy one, even though we don't know.
Speaker: Well, they were there.
Speaker: And once you get to know more about these people, super sketch.
Speaker: So, you know, I'm just, I don't know.
Speaker: I feel like most people have their lives together and I don't.
Speaker: They're like real adults.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm right there with you.
Speaker: They can be witnesses to crimes.
Speaker: They can remember to get license plate numbers.
Speaker: They can remember the make and model of the car.
Speaker: There's absolutely no way.
Speaker: I might remember the make and the model of the car, maybe the color, but there's no way I'm remembering a license plate number.
Speaker: And what do they just like have a sketch pad with them so that they can jot these things down?
Speaker: I'm sure their memories aren't as fried by all the blue light.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: Like I said, less distractions.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: There's no way I'm that kind of adult.
Speaker: I can't even keep up with my phone when it's in my hand.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: You're like, where is my phone while it's literally in your hand?
Speaker: I got it.
Speaker: Thanks.
Speaker: I'm such a poser.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You remember that insult?
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Do people still use that?
Speaker: I don't think so.
Speaker: I mean, I don't know.
Speaker: Maybe the kids do, but I don't think I've ever heard of it.
Speaker: You know who uses it?
Speaker: We do.
Speaker: We're going to reclaim that.
Speaker: It's ours.
Speaker: We are posers.
Speaker: Welcome, fellow posers.
Speaker: Where was I going?
Speaker: Back on the tracks.
Speaker: So they run the license plate and it comes back to a Southside address.
Speaker: So I guess Southside, Fort Worth.
Speaker: And police go to the residence and arrest three suspects that were there.
Speaker: The men were Phil Watson, Woody Lourdes, and Charles Brooks Jr.,
Speaker: They were all brought to the police station and questioned.
Speaker: Watson was later released with no connection to the crime.
Speaker: He was just the owner of the house, I guess, an acquaintance.
Speaker: And I never saw anything about interrogations or anything, but both men were charged with the kidnapping and murder of David.
Speaker: So I assume, since there's trials and all, I assume they didn't talk and then got attorneys and all that jazz.
Speaker: Yeah, most likely.
Speaker: So Charles Brooks Jr. was born in Fort Worth, Texas on September 1st of 1942.
Speaker: And his parents were Charlie and Barry Brooks.
Speaker: Those are cute names.
Speaker: Charlie and Barry.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: I like that.
Speaker: Which one is the wife?
Speaker: Barry?
Speaker: Barry.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because Charles was named after his dad, Charles Brooks Jr. His name is Charles Brooks Jr., which would mean he was named after his dad.
Speaker: Never heard.
Speaker: It was Charlie.
Speaker: That's kind of how that works.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I've never heard of a woman name.
Speaker: Oh, is that how that works?
Speaker: It just went right away.
Speaker: Why can't women have juniors?
Speaker: I wasn't really thinking about their names, I guess.
Speaker: But I've never heard of a woman named Barry.
Speaker: And it's spelled B-A-R-R-I-E.
Speaker: So when you decide to have more kids, keep that one in the Rolodex.
Speaker: Yeah, I might have to write that one down because I will forget.
Speaker: I mean, do you plan on having more children, Jennifer?
Speaker: I would like to, but I'm getting old.
Speaker: I mean, not me.
Speaker: Not me.
Speaker: Well, no.
Speaker: I just had all the equipment removed, so I think I'm set.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: I don't think that's happening.
Speaker: If it isn't, we got a miracle.
Speaker: So Charlie's father had a well-paying job at Swift Meatpacking Plant.
Speaker: And by all accounts, Charlie Jr. had a typical upbringing with loving parents and a stable middle-class home, which to me, and I may be wrong, doesn't sound like the norm for African-American families prior to the Civil Rights Movement.
Speaker: No, it doesn't.
Speaker: It wasn't impossible, but I don't think it was the standard.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I mean, I feel like even after the Civil Rights Movement in the 60s,
Speaker: they were still paid less, right?
Speaker: Probably.
Speaker: I mean, even now they probably are.
Speaker: Well, I would like to hope that it's gotten better, but we all know it hasn't.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I mean, the same with women.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Maybe I'm wrong.
Speaker: I hope I am.
Speaker: I'm never wrong.
Speaker: Oh, right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Just ask my husband.
Speaker: Okay, so this isn't about me, though, or I probably wouldn't be here giving you all the tea about Charles, because, you know, I'd be known.
Speaker: So by all accounts, Charles was a well-rounded kid.
Speaker: He played football at Terrell High School and was a good student and
Speaker: was said to be very personable, and when Charles was 13, his father passed away, and he began getting into trouble.
Speaker: Despite being an athlete, a good student, he became involved with drugs and petty crimes later in his teens.
Speaker: He married his high school sweetheart, Joyce, on June 2nd of 1962, and they had two sons together, Derek and Adrian.
Speaker: Charles, however, was not part of their upbringing because of his lovely lifestyle.
Speaker: He was into like crime and drugs and he was just not a frequent flyer in the home.
Speaker: And in September of 1962, just three months after they were married, Charles was convicted of simple burglary in DeSoto Parish, Louisiana, and was sentenced to three years in prison, but was paroled in 1963.
Speaker: But then his parole was revoked again in 1965.
Speaker: And then he also served time at the United States Penitentiary.
Speaker: I can't say that word.
Speaker: Penitentiary.
Speaker: He also served.
Speaker: Yes, I can't say it.
Speaker: He also served time in the United States Pen-Levinsworth on three counts of illegal possession of firearms in 1968.
Speaker: Words are not easy for me, Jennifer.
Speaker: okay now there's like all some words that all of us can't say right like rural oh well that i think that's just like a problem for especially people in the south i just don't understand especially in the south when everything is rural rural rural i don't know i don't either
Speaker: Man, maybe I need like speech therapy or something.
Speaker: No, for one word.
Speaker: You're like, look, can you teach me how to say penitentiary?
Speaker: Penitentiary.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: How do you say that word?
Speaker: Penitentiary.
Speaker: You said it.
Speaker: And rural.
Speaker: I need help with those words.
Speaker: Rural.
Speaker: Rural.
Speaker: It's just like, it's like back here in the back of your throat.
Speaker: It sounds like my orange cat when he's meowing in the background.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Pumpkin can say it.
Speaker: Why can't I?
Speaker: Anyway, let's go back.
Speaker: June, June, train, tracks, let's go.
Speaker: In 1975, those charges were discharged, which would bring us to December 14th of 1975.
Speaker: Charles met Woody Lourdes about two weeks prior to the fatal shooting of David.
Speaker: So Charles met Woody Lourdes about two weeks prior to the fatal shooting of David.
Speaker: Charles had been staying on and off at the New Lincoln Motel with Woody and his girlfriend in their motel room.
Speaker: And his girlfriend's name was Marlene Smith.
Speaker: Charles and Woody had been out together and met up with Marlene.
Speaker: They all went back to the motel to use heroin.
Speaker: Good times.
Speaker: Oh, nice.
Speaker: And then that's how I felt on my painkillers this week, though, because is it like hydrocodone, Vicodin, whatever?
Speaker: What's an opiate?
Speaker: Isn't that how that's how people get on heroin, right?
Speaker: Yeah, they want something stronger.
Speaker: Well, that or they can't get the prescriptions or whatever.
Speaker: Yeah, because you just, you know, can't get your prescriptions, definitely go into heroin.
Speaker: Well, I mean, I could be on heroin anyway because I was falling asleep on myself everywhere.
Speaker: Yeah, your body's just not used to it.
Speaker: I would like wake up snoring out of nowhere.
Speaker: I was like, how long have I been out?
Speaker: And it's been like an hour and I'm on the couch and I just don't, I can't do it.
Speaker: No heroin for me.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm good on the heroin too.
Speaker: Count me out.
Speaker: I'm struggling with this hydrocodone.
Speaker: So then after using all that heroin, good times, they had the bright idea to go do some shoplifting.
Speaker: So let's.
Speaker: Let's do heroin.
Speaker: Let's go do some shoplifting.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I just.
Speaker: Sounds like a good time.
Speaker: I don't understand that because I guess I've watched too many like intervention shows and then you see them like do the heroin and they just like knock out.
Speaker: So I know they wake back up, obviously.
Speaker: But aren't you like.
Speaker: Most of the time.
Speaker: Most of the time.
Speaker: But aren't you like super down?
Speaker: Like I don't feel like I would want to get up out of bed and go to a store to find things to shoplift.
Speaker: True.
Speaker: But maybe 1976 heroin and 2023 heroin are different?
Speaker: Maybe.
Speaker: Or maybe they were like, you know what?
Speaker: We really need this money.
Speaker: And so we have to do this even if we don't want to.
Speaker: Unless they were coming down from the heroin.
Speaker: Because I don't think it lasts a long time.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: If they were coming down and they needed money for more.
Speaker: Maybe.
Speaker: Who knows?
Speaker: That would not be my first thought though if I was that
Speaker: low or down I would not be thinking I want to get up no but if you're coming off of it and you're like man I need more that's true that's true yeah so when they would go shoplifting Charles would wear a trench coat and the trench coat had been altered for shoplifting the pockets were altered to fit more merchandise inside so I guess they were bigger deeper pockets or maybe there were extra pockets yeah I feel like I'm saying the word pocket a lot yeah
Speaker: So I guess typically what would happen would be the tactic that Woody and Marlene would use would be that Marlene would distract the clerks and Woody would then steal or vice versa.
Speaker: So that was a tactic that worked well together.
Speaker: So they were going to do that with Charles and Woody instead of Woody and Marlene.
Speaker: So on their way to go, quote unquote, to work, their car broke down.
Speaker: And that's what stranded them at the convenience store.
Speaker: And then they decided that Marlene and Woody would stay behind while Charlie went to, they used the word get assistance, but I'm not sure what that means.
Speaker: Cause they, I don't think they ever had the intention to be like, I need help with this car.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: So I'm using that term loosely.
Speaker: He then came across the used car lot where he was sent on the test drive with David and
Speaker: And some sources say that they placed David in the trunk before heading back to the motel.
Speaker: And like I mentioned before, they murdered David by shooting him in the head while he was bound and gagged in the motel room.
Speaker: Poor David.
Speaker: So on December 15th, while in jail waiting on charges, Woody managed to escape from jail.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Yeah, just like last time, right?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It must be really easy to get out of jail in the, what was the 60s?
Speaker: The 60s back then too, right?
Speaker: Or the 70s?
Speaker: It was the 70s.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But I guess they didn't vamp up their security.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: I mean, it was in two different towns.
Speaker: One was Austin.
Speaker: One was Fort Worth.
Speaker: But anyway, a corrections officer had come into the cell to remove another inmate.
Speaker: And when the door was open, Woody hid behind the door.
Speaker: And the officer thought that the cell was empty.
Speaker: So he just leaves the door open.
Speaker: But why are these officers so stupid?
Speaker: I think working in a jail, I would just, out of habit, close the doors all the time.
Speaker: Every time, all the time.
Speaker: Just assume that somebody else is there.
Speaker: Watch them while they have to go to the bathroom if they're not in their cell.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And you have them out.
Speaker: Keep an eye on those guys.
Speaker: Especially if they're in street clothes.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Aye, aye, aye.
Speaker: So it's presumed that Woody ran into another group of inmates that were on their way to court and then slipped away from there.
Speaker: And in one interview, they were like, well, I don't know how he managed to get past three locked doors.
Speaker: Clearly, they weren't locked very well.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Oh, my gosh.
Speaker: So then on December 24th, Woody walks into a police station in Kansas to turn himself in.
Speaker: And he was brought back to Texas to handle business down here.
Speaker: But I was like, I like how he's just like, man, we're done.
Speaker: Can you take me back?
Speaker: The last guy did the same thing.
Speaker: Yeah, he went on a bender and was like, well, that was a fun night.
Speaker: But this was like 10 days.
Speaker: Yeah, well, at least this guy stayed out longer than just one night.
Speaker: But he made it to Kansas.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: If you're going to leave the whole state...
Speaker: At that point, you've made it that far.
Speaker: You're halfway to Canada.
Speaker: Yeah, just like keep going.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I mean, don't keep going.
Speaker: You need to do your time because you're a terrible person.
Speaker: But also like keep going if you've gotten that far.
Speaker: These criminals are stupid.
Speaker: You might not have been found.
Speaker: I mean, I don't know that I've ever met a smart criminal.
Speaker: I know they exist.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: So long story short.
Speaker: Both men were found guilty of capital murder and kidnapping of David, even though neither one of them would ever say who pulled the trigger.
Speaker: That's it.
Speaker: The end.
Speaker: Good night.
Speaker: Just kidding.
Speaker: So in Texas, though, I'm not sure about other states, but here in Texas, if you commit a murder during the commission of another crime,
Speaker: it becomes a capital charge.
Speaker: And then there are other circumstances that could land you in capital murder charge.
Speaker: So just to be on the safe side, Jennifer, I'm going to let you know what they are so that you don't go do any of these things in your free time.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: When you're done taking heroin.
Speaker: Thank you so much.
Speaker: And shoplifting.
Speaker: Just make sure you're not doing these other things while you shoplift.
Speaker: So take notes.
Speaker: All right.
Speaker: The person murders a peace officer or a fireman, which, I mean, you have the potential.
Speaker: You work with them.
Speaker: The person intentionally commits the murder in the course of committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, burglary, robbery, aggravated sexual assault, arson, obstruction, or retaliation, or a terroristic threat.
Speaker: Person commits the murder for payment or hires a hitman.
Speaker: So don't do that either, Jennifer.
Speaker: No hitmans allowed.
Speaker: And you cannot be a hitman either.
Speaker: I mean, wouldn't that be like the best option is to like hire somebody?
Speaker: I mean, you're going to have to find a new plan B as far as a career choice.
Speaker: The person commits murder while escaping or attempting to escape from a penal institution.
Speaker: Maybe that's what I'll say instead of penitentiary.
Speaker: Penitentiary.
Speaker: There you go.
Speaker: A penal institution.
Speaker: The person, while incarcerated in a penal institution, murders another who is employed in the operation of the penal institution.
Speaker: That's going to get old real quick.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: The...
Speaker: with the intent to establish, maintain, or participate in basically organized crime.
Speaker: They are incarcerated and they murder somebody else.
Speaker: Like they murder somebody while they're in jail, serving a sentence of life imprisonment for another offense and then murder somebody else.
Speaker: I feel like that's kind of overkill, stating that twice.
Speaker: The person murders more than one person during the same criminal transaction.
Speaker: During a different criminal transaction, but the murders are committed pursuant to the same scheme or course of conduct.
Speaker: So like serial killers.
Speaker: Yeah, sounds like it.
Speaker: There's a couple more, but you get the idea.
Speaker: Oh, this one always gets me.
Speaker: The person murders an individual under the age of 10.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: So like nine is good, but 10 you should be able to like.
Speaker: I think that age should be a little bit higher.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, or the next one is a person murders an individual 10 years of age or older but younger than 15.
Speaker: Why wouldn't they just make the first one 15 then?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Either way, it's a child.
Speaker: It's a minor.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Or basically retaliation, like a judge or something like that.
Speaker: And of course, here in Texas, capital offenses are the only crimes punishable by death.
Speaker: And that totally reminds me of blue collar comedy when that was really popular.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And it was, I think, Ron White, and he talks about Texas having the death penalty.
Speaker: And he's like, if you come to Texas and you kill someone, we'll kill you back.
Speaker: Well, it's true in certain situations.
Speaker: Yes and no.
Speaker: I mean, it's funny, but it's not funny.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But we have to laugh at the uncomfortable stuff.
Speaker: Uncomfortable stuff.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: My mouth is not working with me tonight.
Speaker: So both men are convicted of capital murder because they murdered him during the course of a kidnapping.
Speaker: And obviously with death penalty cases, they get so many appeals.
Speaker: So they automatically file an appeal.
Speaker: And I know here in Texas also, you like automatically get that appeal, which is why all the appeals and stuff is what makes it cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than it is to execute them because of appeals and court costs and
Speaker: everything that they have the filings and all of it just like for it yeah the state has to pay for all of that so that's why it's cheaper to house somebody indefinitely than it is to put somebody on death row right because life in prison isn't death row so then they
Speaker: They get the appeals, but it's not as automatic as it is for, I guess, death row.
Speaker: Because in order to file an appeal, you have to have some sort of new information or whatever.
Speaker: But on death row, it's automatic.
Speaker: Oh, I don't think I knew that.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: What?
Speaker: I guess I didn't know that it's an automatic.
Speaker: If you're on death row, then if you appeal it, because you can come up for appeal ever, I don't know, however many years, right?
Speaker: Well, you can appeal to all the different courts.
Speaker: I think you're thinking of parole.
Speaker: Oh, yeah, maybe.
Speaker: But you can only go up to the Supreme Court because that's the last court.
Speaker: The United States Supreme Court.
Speaker: So then there's like the court that convicted you and then there's all the district courts and the state courts and the state.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: What is it?
Speaker: The state Supreme Court and then all the way up to the United States Supreme Court.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So you only have so many appeals before it's like you're just done.
Speaker: Yeah, once you get up to the U.S. Supreme Court, it's just done.
Speaker: But I know, like, for regular trials, you have to have new evidence or there has to have been, like, reason for them to think of throwing it out because of a mistrial or a juror or all of these other things.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But if none of that is substantiated, then they're not even going to hear your appeal case, basically.
Speaker: The judge will throw it out before you even get to court, I think.
Speaker: I think that's how it works.
Speaker: Yeah, I'm sure they review everything because they're not going to take the time to go to court if there's... For every single person that's like, hey, I don't like this.
Speaker: Let's appeal.
Speaker: Exactly, because I'm sure that's what they do.
Speaker: They sit in jail thinking of reasons why they could get out.
Speaker: Right, and they have all the law books and access to all of that.
Speaker: So they spend a lot of time doing that, I assume.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: I've never been to prison, so I don't know.
Speaker: Me either.
Speaker: And I'm also just a preschool teacher and I'm not a lawyer, so... Right.
Speaker: Uh-huh.
Speaker: Not something I use in my day-to-day work?
Speaker: No.
Speaker: Well, you, not me.
Speaker: I do.
Speaker: But also, I've never been to prison or jail.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't plan to go.
Speaker: Nope.
Speaker: Nope.
Speaker: Too old at this point.
Speaker: So then Woody's death sentence was overturned on appeal and he accepted a plea bargain.
Speaker: So there was some sort of technical error that they were like, yes, we can't.
Speaker: We have to give him a new trial, basically.
Speaker: And so rather than doing the new trial, he was like, hey, hey.
Speaker: Rather than trying me again, why don't we just give you a plea deal?
Speaker: And he pled guilty to murder, not capital murder, just murdered.
Speaker: And he was sentenced to 40 years in prison and paroled in 1989 after serving just 11 years.
Speaker: Okay, but he had to have given some information out because there's no way they would have gone from capital murder to just murder and then let him be on parole.
Speaker: But it's also really expensive to retry them.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: And if they have Charles on capital murder.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: then they're both getting the conviction in 40 years.
Speaker: I mean, I don't know.
Speaker: I don't agree, but I was just wondering if maybe Woody was like, you know what?
Speaker: Actually, I didn't pull the trigger.
Speaker: It really was Charles, Charlie, whatever.
Speaker: And so then that's why they gave him a better deal, I guess.
Speaker: Maybe, maybe a long time ago.
Speaker: We'll see.
Speaker: Anywho.
Speaker: Charles wasn't so lucky.
Speaker: And during his appeal, his lawyers had an issue that witnesses saw Charles in a trench coat.
Speaker: They all stated they saw a black man in a trench coat, but no one actually saw him commit any crimes.
Speaker: Nobody could say that guy right there was the guy I saw in the trench coat.
Speaker: So his lawyers were basically arguing that
Speaker: putting him there as the guy in the trench coat, being the guy at the liquor store and in those cars and everything that led to them being caught at their friend's house was all circumstantial because they just said it was a black man in a trench coat and that could have been anybody.
Speaker: I mean, yeah, but... They also had an issue with the testimony from Marlene.
Speaker: She stated that Charles used heroin with them and that he was an addict but couldn't say if he used the day of the incident or not.
Speaker: And his attorney argued that Marlene was an incredible witness since she supported herself as a sex worker and was a known thief and had been addicted to heroin for 12 years.
Speaker: And they stated that her heroin addiction was $75 to $100 a day at the time of the murder.
Speaker: So $75 in 1975 is about $425 today.
Speaker: So I'm no expert and I don't know what the price of heroin is or how much you get with that money, but...
Speaker: I would imagine it's a lot.
Speaker: That sounds like a lot.
Speaker: I mean, I don't know how, I don't know the price either, but that just sounds like, that's so much money.
Speaker: You said a day?
Speaker: Yes, per day.
Speaker: Could you imagine spending $400 a day on stuff that, like, you have, you have nothing to show for it?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Which makes me sick.
Speaker: It does.
Speaker: If I had somebody paid me $425 a day, I'd be sick for a while.
Speaker: Yeah, no kidding.
Speaker: Just for like a year.
Speaker: Yeah, that's fine.
Speaker: Just on top of my normal pay.
Speaker: If somebody could just pay me $400, $425 a day and I'll just put it in savings.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But yeah, so they were saying that she's no good because she's an addict and a sex worker.
Speaker: So you can't listen to anything she has to say.
Speaker: His lawyers also said that there was no evidence that he was using drugs with them.
Speaker: And they are basing that opinion on the testimony of a criminal.
Speaker: So she's saying that he's a heroin addict, but they're like, she's an addict.
Speaker: So.
Speaker: So he's probably not.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Nope.
Speaker: He's not.
Speaker: Not at all.
Speaker: And then Charles stated that he only lived with them, like stayed with them for a couple weeks, and he never did drugs with them.
Speaker: And if he was using drugs, it's not even relevant to the murder.
Speaker: So he's basically saying, you guys are just trying to make me look like a bad person, saying that I use heroin and I'm a criminal and an addict.
Speaker: And they even went so far as to argue that his previous convictions shouldn't have
Speaker: been admissible because it had nothing to do with the case.
Speaker: So like his previous burglary charges, he had been in jail for possession of firearms, illegal possession of firearms.
Speaker: And they were like, that has nothing to do with what's happening right now.
Speaker: So you shouldn't have made me look bad.
Speaker: But also he stole a car.
Speaker: Yet again, they were just trying to make him look bad for the jurors.
Speaker: He's not a bad person.
Speaker: They're just making him look that way.
Speaker: He's such a good person.
Speaker: Such a good guy.
Speaker: But yeah, the judge was like, no dice, homie.
Speaker: That's it.
Speaker: They have to see all of it.
Speaker: You as a whole.
Speaker: You as this amazing person.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But also, I would think that his burglary has something to do with his stealing a car.
Speaker: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker: And I think the fact that he was in jail for the illegal possession of firearms and one of them was a sawed off shotgun.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Side note.
Speaker: is totally relevant.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: During the trial, the defense asked that a photo of David and his wife and children be removed from evidence.
Speaker: And their thought process was that seeing the kids in the photo would give the jury an unfair bias against Charles because they were really like, oh, his babies don't have a dad anymore.
Speaker: Well, yeah.
Speaker: They should.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because he probably was active in their lives.
Speaker: Yeah, just because Charles wasn't doesn't mean other dads are not.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: So the children were removed from the picture.
Speaker: However, during the appeal, the defense said, well, you took the kids out of the picture, but you could still see, like, the outline where they were.
Speaker: So the jury could draw a conclusion of, like, what was supposed to be there.
Speaker: So that was another argument during the appeal.
Speaker: Wow, what a great defense.
Speaker: I mean, they got to get every little thing they can to see if something sticks.
Speaker: I guess they're going to pay to do their job.
Speaker: I guess.
Speaker: I mean, the state's paying them, so.
Speaker: And then during the jury selection, one juror was asked if he could be impartial during the trial since it was a black man on trial for murdering a white man in, of course, 1970s and in the South.
Speaker: Not so great towards people of color.
Speaker: Nope.
Speaker: And the juror stated that he could remain neutral, even though he had a friend murdered with similar circumstances, like a black person had killed his friends.
Speaker: How?
Speaker: How could you possibly stay neutral to that?
Speaker: I would be so angry.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But then both attorneys during jury selection grilled him relentlessly about his ability to stay impartial.
Speaker: And it was this huge thing about all of them going back and forth.
Speaker: And they both allowed him to stay.
Speaker: That's crazy.
Speaker: But now the defense attorney is like, well, remember that juror?
Speaker: But then the judge was like, no, sir.
Speaker: Yeah, because he had the opportunity to strike him.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And he said, you both allowed him to stay on the jury.
Speaker: And he hadn't used all of his, what is that word?
Speaker: Preemptive?
Speaker: Prematory.
Speaker: Yeah, preemptory, preemptory, preemptory.
Speaker: Anyway, his challenges.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And he could have struck him for no reason.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And he still had several left.
Speaker: So he could have just said, yeah, no, no thanks.
Speaker: Like, cause without his preemptive challenges, they have to have a reason.
Speaker: But then the preemptive challenges say you can just dismiss a juror without.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Just cause I don't like the way you look.
Speaker: Your hair's too gray, sir.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And then they also argued that since no one had admitted to shooting the victim, there was zero evidence to support that Charles was the one who fired the fatal shots.
Speaker: So you can't convict him for the capital murder because you don't even know who pulled the trigger.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That is true.
Speaker: But you are the company you keep.
Speaker: So if you are driving the car and somebody goes in and murders somebody and you're the driver of the getaway car, you're convicted of that same crime.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: So I don't think it really requires that.
Speaker: somebody confess but I also think at this point they're just trying to get him off of death row right yeah his attorneys are just doing anything that they can right so even if they're like yes murder but maybe not capital murder and the last arguments in the appeal were that some of the evidence was inadmissible because of an illegal search performed on room 15 at the Lincoln Motel because room 15 is where they were living oh
Speaker: And the murder happened in room 17.
Speaker: So they're saying they didn't have a search warrant for room 15, but then you still admitted all of that evidence.
Speaker: And then the last argument was the death penalty is considered a cruel and unusual punishment per the U.S. Constitution.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker: Which I'm one of those people that is like, I don't think the death penalty should be a thing.
Speaker: Like, I don't agree with it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Because there are so many circumstances where people are wrongly convicted.
Speaker: I agree with that.
Speaker: And I think without having that hard, concrete, like, yes, I did this, or yes, I'm a serial killer, or DNA now, but even back then there was no DNA.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I don't think it should be a thing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: No, I agree with that.
Speaker: Because, like you said, unless there's somebody that says, yes, I absolutely did this without a doubt, this was me, then they shouldn't be on death row.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And even then, if somebody confesses to a murder, they still have to make the evidence line up with that confession.
Speaker: So it's not like anybody's just going to go up and be like, yes, it's me.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Because there are false confessions done all the time, but they still have to make everything line up.
Speaker: True.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, yeah.
Speaker: Cruel and unusual punishment.
Speaker: The response from the judge on all the arguments to the appeal was denied.
Speaker: Go straight to jail.
Speaker: Do not pass go.
Speaker: Do not collect $200.
Speaker: Sit on death row.
Speaker: And his conviction was upheld.
Speaker: So then Charles was scheduled to be executed on December 12th of 1981.
Speaker: But the execution was pushed back by a year because of all of the motions his lawyers were putting in.
Speaker: I think they were just like filing every little thing they could just to get everything pushed back farther.
Speaker: So then in October of 1982, so the following year, 10 months later,
Speaker: All the motions had been denied and they were like, he's not getting out.
Speaker: Like this is happening.
Speaker: And then Charlie filed for a stay of execution on November 15th.
Speaker: And that was also denied.
Speaker: He then challenged the decision on December 2nd and it was denied again.
Speaker: This is happening.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And this is why it's so expensive.
Speaker: And his execution was scheduled yet again for December 7th of 1982.
Speaker: So almost exactly a year later.
Speaker: So the day before he was to be executed at 4 p.m., the Board of Pardons and Paroles decided they would not intervene or give him a stay or anything.
Speaker: And then at 6 p.m., Governor Clements announced that he would not be issuing a 30-day reprieve.
Speaker: And so I saw a news video, I guess, on YouTube about this case and the stay of execution or like a 30-day reprieve from the governor saying,
Speaker: And the governor basically said, no, thank you.
Speaker: And then even then, they were waiting to see if he would come back later.
Speaker: And he basically went to the governor's mansion and checked out.
Speaker: He's like, I already gave you my answer.
Speaker: It's not happening.
Speaker: Is that something they do with everybody?
Speaker: Like the governor can give them a 30 day reprieve anytime?
Speaker: So typically, the governor is the last ditch.
Speaker: Like,
Speaker: effort to get him another 30 days to try and get some other motions or something challenged or something in the works that they can put it off and try and get the appeal.
Speaker: But Governor Clements, this was in 1982.
Speaker: He was the first governor since 1949 that had denied a 30 day reprieve.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: So typically governors, from my understanding, well, from around this time period and before, always gave the 30 day reprieve.
Speaker: Like no matter what?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So this guy was just the standard.
Speaker: Real strict.
Speaker: He was like, no, I'm good.
Speaker: You did everything you could.
Speaker: You did this.
Speaker: You're going.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And it could have, I don't know.
Speaker: And there were people that were like, do you know why he would have done that?
Speaker: Or do you support his decision?
Speaker: And they were like, I don't know the logistics of the case, but I know him as a person and I know him as a colleague and I would support any decision he made.
Speaker: Oh, so he was a good governor, I guess.
Speaker: Maybe.
Speaker: Yes, I don't know much about him.
Speaker: I've never even heard of his name.
Speaker: Yeah, because we weren't alive in 82.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: Probably still wouldn't know even if I was.
Speaker: Because I would have been a baby.
Speaker: No?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So then at 830, the U.S. Supreme Court denied an additional stay of execution.
Speaker: So then just before 9 p.m., a federal judge...
Speaker: Balew, B-E-L-E-W, B-E-L-E-W, B-E-L-E-W, I don't know, spoke with Jack Strickland, who was the prosecutor for the state during the trials.
Speaker: And he stated that he wanted to halt the execution because there was no evidence that he was the gunman.
Speaker: And Woody, who was also involved in the murder, was only issued a 40-year sentence for the same crime.
Speaker: So he didn't rightfully feel like in his heart that it was a good, fair justice for him to get the death penalty when his co-conspirator was initially charged.
Speaker: And based on like a clerical error, for lack of a better term, he got 40 years.
Speaker: I mean, that makes sense.
Speaker: How could somebody get 40 years and then the other person gets death?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And it was only based on like,
Speaker: An error, like a trial error.
Speaker: It wasn't based on anything evidence-wise.
Speaker: So Strickland was then cross-examined by the Attorney General's capital case specialist, Leslie Benitez.
Speaker: And at 1049, Judge Ballou decided against a stay of execution and would allow another appeal to the Fifth Circuit.
Speaker: So then Charlie's attorneys quickly gone on the phone with New Orleans to make the new appeal with the Fifth Circuit.
Speaker: And finally, at 1152 p.m., the Fifth Circuit stated that there was no new information in his last minute claims and his execution would proceed.
Speaker: Oh, yeah.
Speaker: They tried.
Speaker: They tried real hard.
Speaker: And there was like a huge gathering of people outside the prison.
Speaker: Some people were in favor of it and some people were against it because of the circumstances.
Speaker: Like they didn't know who the gunman was.
Speaker: They didn't know.
Speaker: Like the lethal injection part of it.
Speaker: We'll get there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So just after midnight, the Attorney General, Mark White, who then went on to be the governor, would make the call for the execution process to begin.
Speaker: There were many protesters outside of the prison, like I said, and some stated they opposed the death penalty because it was considered cruel and unusual and that doctors who had taken the oath to do no harm were then using medicine as a way to kill someone instead of using the medicine to help.
Speaker: That's a good point.
Speaker: That is a very good point, which is why I don't like the death penalty, but I don't know.
Speaker: I'm just glad that it's not my job to make those hard choices.
Speaker: Yeah, no kidding.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I just feel like some things with politics, I'm like, I really don't know what the solution is, but...
Speaker: I don't think this is the right one, but I don't, I don't have a solution.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: And like, think about somebody, let's say they committed a crime whenever they were, or a murder, capital murder, even when they were 18 years old.
Speaker: And maybe they sat on death row or even life in prison for, let's say, until they're like
Speaker: 50 60 years old like do you not think that they have been rehabilitated like they didn't learn their lesson that they shouldn't be killing people no i would agree with that but i think now also the law is that if they're under 21 i don't think they qualify for capital murder they can't oh okay have the death penalty issued i'll have to like look that up but i don't think that they're
Speaker: I don't think they're able to do that because that is also considered cruel and unusual.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But so, okay, then say 25 and then they sit on death row until they're 50 or 60.
Speaker: Like that's still a really long time.
Speaker: But they also have to look at everything objectively and see, I guess, what his lifestyle was like in prison.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Did he continue to reoffend?
Speaker: Does he feel remorseful?
Speaker: I guess it's the same thing that would go when people go up for the parole board.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: No.
Speaker: But everybody finds God in prison.
Speaker: So everybody's.
Speaker: That's true.
Speaker: But.
Speaker: Everybody's moved on.
Speaker: It's true.
Speaker: But I don't know.
Speaker: I guess you.
Speaker: As long as you haven't done something else terrible while you're in prison.
Speaker: Because like there are people in prison that do really terrible things while they're there and like kill multiple other people.
Speaker: And I get them staying there forever.
Speaker: But somebody that like maybe did something really stupid whenever they were young and then now they're older.
Speaker: Like, maybe let's let them try and live life normally.
Speaker: But then it also goes back to the argument they didn't let somebody else live their life normally and all of the people that were affected by that murder or death, they don't get to live their lives normally anymore.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like you said.
Speaker: I see both sides of it.
Speaker: I do too.
Speaker: Because I'm not.
Speaker: Of course, if somebody that I loved and cared about was murdered, I'd probably think completely different.
Speaker: But I've never had that happen to me.
Speaker: So I guess I can't really say how I would feel.
Speaker: And maybe I would want them to be either put to death or at least spend the rest of their lives in prison.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think I'm not the glass half full or the glass half empty.
Speaker: There is just liquid in the glass.
Speaker: Yes, exactly.
Speaker: So they also already said, oh, they also said that along with doctors taking the oath to do no harm, they said that there's no way to know for sure if a person feels any pain during a lethal injection.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't like that.
Speaker: I don't think that, I think they do feel pain.
Speaker: We will never know, Jennifer.
Speaker: But you can kind of see it.
Speaker: I think you can.
Speaker: But if they put him to sleep like they do now when you go into surgery and then you just like.
Speaker: But I think that sometimes the drugs don't work the way that they're supposed to and they can feel like the other drugs going into their veins and it like burns.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: But I don't know where we've heard that before.
Speaker: I think I've seen something about it or like read something about it.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Somewhere it's in my brain.
Speaker: For some reason.
Speaker: We're going to have to do a deep dive into lethal injection and.
Speaker: Like the death penalty stuff.
Speaker: All the deets.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: All the deets on a lethal injection.
Speaker: Because there's some reason that that's in my brain.
Speaker: Either a video or I read about it and how it's not as like an easy go as people think it is.
Speaker: I feel like I've heard that somewhere too, but I can't.
Speaker: Can't place it.
Speaker: recall where I've heard that or if it's just something like when you pee in the pool it's going to turn purple uh if it's just something that everybody knows nobody knows where it came from I thought it was well myth busters totally debunked that it's not a thing isn't there so it's not going to turn any color but isn't there a chemical that they can put in it they will make no no
Speaker: Because they can't tell the difference.
Speaker: No chemicals can tell the difference in like saliva or mucus or, you know, snotty kids.
Speaker: But like also like the oils on your skin, they can't differentiate between that and urine.
Speaker: And it's also the pool so diluted and full of other chemicals that there's no way for it to be a thing ever.
Speaker: That makes sense.
Speaker: So pee in the pools, guys.
Speaker: Pee in the pool.
Speaker: No one will ever know.
Speaker: She's promoting you peeing in the pool.
Speaker: Just not in my neighborhood.
Speaker: And you know that it's, I think they said that the reason that your eyes get red whenever you go underwater and you open them isn't because of the chlorine, but because of the urine in the pool.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I have to look that one up, but I don't put my face in the water that frequently.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't either, but I used to.
Speaker: We all used to.
Speaker: Definitely used to open my eyes in the pool too.
Speaker: So then which one of us was being in the pool?
Speaker: Well, it could have been anybody in the pool.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: That's what I'm saying.
Speaker: But typically when we swam, it was with our friends or siblings.
Speaker: Or cousins.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So who was it?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: All of us probably.
Speaker: I'm not going to point the finger at anybody.
Speaker: So while Charles was in prison, he had a girlfriend.
Speaker: What?
Speaker: I don't understand.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: She was.
Speaker: I don't understand that.
Speaker: I don't either.
Speaker: She was really young and they, I guess, were writing to each other and she showed up to one of the hearings and he didn't want to tell the judge, hey, can I say hi to my girlfriend?
Speaker: So he called her his fiance, but they were just boyfriend, girlfriend.
Speaker: So she showed up to be part of the execution.
Speaker: And then his former wife came with their two sons and his estranged sons asked to see him before they started the process.
Speaker: But Charlie said no because he didn't want them to see him like that.
Speaker: Also, he had no relationship with them anyway.
Speaker: But I think if I was about to die...
Speaker: Regardless of how I felt about it, I would have to put my feelings aside because it's about them.
Speaker: They're the ones that have to keep living.
Speaker: True.
Speaker: And they have to process.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And maybe they need that closure.
Speaker: It's not about you at this point.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It's like I tell John and the kids this all the time.
Speaker: Whenever I pass away, you do whatever you need to do with my body to help you process.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: If it's me, cremate me.
Speaker: Keep the extra cash.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: If putting me in the ground makes you feel better, by all means.
Speaker: I don't have an opinion at that point.
Speaker: No, because you're not there.
Speaker: It doesn't matter.
Speaker: Your body is not you.
Speaker: So anyway, they didn't get to go in and say goodbye or see him or anything.
Speaker: And so I read this article in the Texas Monthly from a journalist by the last name,
Speaker: Revis, R-E-A-V-I-S.
Speaker: And so during an interview, Charlie made the statement that the gun may have accidentally gone off.
Speaker: What?
Speaker: And I'll read you the dialogue from the article.
Speaker: So Charlie said, and if the gun somehow accidentally discharges, Revis interjected with, it's a revolver, or it was a revolver.
Speaker: He said, I'm hip.
Speaker: I'm aware of that.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I know the lingo.
Speaker: And then Revis said, revolvers don't accidentally discharge.
Speaker: I don't know how those work, so.
Speaker: Well, it gets interesting.
Speaker: So then Charles said, yeah, I'm not talking about accidentally discharge, as in, let's say, like an automatic.
Speaker: In order for a revolver to discharge, he said in a self-assured way, you either have to cock the hammer or either pull the trigger.
Speaker: What I'm saying is like, okay, like if you've got the hammer cocked, okay,
Speaker: And it can be an accident when you twitch that finger.
Speaker: That trigger can be pulled deliberately or by accident.
Speaker: And then in the same article, Rivas writes that Charles said, I know that I'm not a cold-blooded killer.
Speaker: I know that I'm not able to kill someone without compassion.
Speaker: I cannot identify what happened because that was so, you know, it was just like something you do while you're asleep.
Speaker: The sleepwalkers...
Speaker: The sleepwalkers that commit acts.
Speaker: They don't feel what they would have felt had they been awake and committed a particular act.
Speaker: I was so out of it that I can't even identify with being there.
Speaker: Out of it from what?
Speaker: I thought he wasn't doing drugs.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Maybe he was doing some heroin.
Speaker: He maybe just disassociated Jennifer.
Speaker: I mean, maybe it was a traumatic experience for him.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: He caused that traumatic experience.
Speaker: So that made Rivas believe that maybe he was like admitting to being the trigger man.
Speaker: That was his way of saying, but what if, but what had happened was without saying that, because he was still trying to get some appeals and stays of execution and stuff.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, he admitted it in a roundabout way.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, that was at least the impression that Revis got the journalist.
Speaker: So the journalist had met with Charlie numerous times before he was executed.
Speaker: And over the course of their time together, they developed a strategy so that Charlie could communicate with him if he was feeling any kind of pain during the injections.
Speaker: And since Revis would be attending the execution, it was a good way for them to kind of figure it out if he was feeling pain, maybe.
Speaker: So their plan was that Charlie would shake his head left to right as if he were saying the word no.
Speaker: And that would indicate that he was feeling some discomfort or some pain.
Speaker: So Charlie's final meal consisted of T-bone steak, fries, ketchup, Worcestershire sauce, biscuits, peach cobbler, and iced tea.
Speaker: I'm surprised you said that right.
Speaker: Worcestershire.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: I can't say penitentiary, but I can say Worcestershire sauce.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think that they... Isn't there like a cap on what you can get for your last meal now too?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: But I also read that he wanted some...
Speaker: something else maybe like lobster or something i'm probably just pulling that out of my ass but he wanted something else and the cook was like no no you get like whatever's in the pantry here i'll cook it for you and he was like well i thought i got whatever i wanted he was like yeah from whatever's in the kitchen that's kind of messed up though because like it's your very last meal before you die you should really just get whatever you want you should like if you want them to order a pizza which if i was ever on death row i'm getting a whole pizza
Speaker: I don't know if I want pizza.
Speaker: I love pizza.
Speaker: I like pizza too.
Speaker: I would need some Dutch apple pie with bluebell.
Speaker: I don't really care about pie.
Speaker: Unless it's a pizza pie.
Speaker: We both like pie, just different kinds of pie, Jennifer.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So they asked Charles if he had any final words.
Speaker: And he said, I love you to his girlfriend.
Speaker: And her name was Vanessa.
Speaker: And then Charlie chanted in Arabic from the Quran.
Speaker: Charlie had converted to Islam while he was incarcerated.
Speaker: Because like I said, everybody finds God.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker: And I'll spare your ears and read the English translation because I really prefer not to offend anybody.
Speaker: And I really don't want to sound like an idiot.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So the English translation, I bear witness that there is no God but Allah.
Speaker: I bear witness that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.
Speaker: And again, he says it in Arabic, Verily unto Allah do we belong.
Speaker: Verily unto him do we return.
Speaker: Just before the final signal was given, the sheriff said to Charlie, May Allah admit you to paradise.
Speaker: Revis recalls seeing Charlie's head move back and forth in a fashion that would indicate he was shaking his head no.
Speaker: While the deadly cocktail was administered, which again indicated that he may have been feeling some pain, but his head stopped moving on the second turn to the left.
Speaker: So it was like one full turn and then a half.
Speaker: So there was no real definitive answer, but he took it as there is a possibility that he was feeling pain because that was their code word.
Speaker: So some spectators also said that Charlie's body convulsed while others only remember hearing him gasp.
Speaker: The doctors then go over his body and listen with a stethoscope.
Speaker: They touch his chest and look for signs of movement.
Speaker: Meanwhile, one more doctor checks over his eyes and says dilation.
Speaker: And then he checked the other eye and repeats the word dilation.
Speaker: One of the doctors then asked if the injection was complete and they were told that it had not been completed yet.
Speaker: So his eyes were still dilating.
Speaker: which I guess they took to mean he's still alive.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's a indicator.
Speaker: Yeah, so they weren't, his lungs weren't moving.
Speaker: They didn't hear a heartbeat, but then his eyes were still dilating.
Speaker: That's so scary.
Speaker: And then the doctor, I know, I had a hard time reading this.
Speaker: Like, I know he's a murderer, but reading all of this, it was like, this is still somebody's life.
Speaker: Right, well, and it's still cruel.
Speaker: I don't know, it's so hard.
Speaker: It's so hard to read.
Speaker: Like it made me feel a sense of compassion where I know I shouldn't.
Speaker: But I don't know.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Don't come at me, people.
Speaker: Then the doctor said, we'll just wait a few more minutes.
Speaker: And then Charles Brooks Jr. was pronounced dead at 1216 a.m., only seven minutes after the concoction had been administered.
Speaker: Just the fact that he shook his head, even if it didn't make a whole, like, back to the... But he's a criminal.
Speaker: What if he's doing that just to, like, fuck with people?
Speaker: I mean, maybe.
Speaker: Possibly.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: It's just so hard because... There's no answer.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: There's no answer.
Speaker: You can't ask him.
Speaker: And then his eyes are still dilating.
Speaker: So that means that something, some kind of activity is happening.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: But they still hadn't finished administering the whole cocktail either.
Speaker: So maybe his body was paralyzed, but then internally.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: You know what I mean?
Speaker: Like brain function or something is still there.
Speaker: Well, and that's what I think happens is like it paralyzes your body so you can't like react to it.
Speaker: But you can still feel it all because your brain is still alive.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I don't like it.
Speaker: I don't like it either.
Speaker: But you want to hear something else?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Interesting about it?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Charles is the first person to ever be executed by lethal injection.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker: So that puts a whole new spin on it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So maybe they didn't even have the cocktail right yet.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that's why it was such a, what's the word I'm looking for?
Speaker: Controversial.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Controversial.
Speaker: That's why it was such a controversial execution because they had never used lethal injection before.
Speaker: And he was like the first person ever in the U.S. to be executed that way.
Speaker: And he was also.
Speaker: We started it here in Texas.
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: Welcome to the South.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: He was also the first person since 1964 to be executed.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: So in 1964, a de facto moratorium was issued, which basically meant they had to stop all executions.
Speaker: The U.S. Supreme Court had decided that the death penalty was unconstitutional and was being assigned arbitrarily.
Speaker: So just like you get a death sentence, you get a death sentence.
Speaker: They were just handing them out all willy-nilly.
Speaker: So then when did it become...
Speaker: Like back to being constitutional to kill people.
Speaker: I'm getting there.
Speaker: Working on it.
Speaker: So the de facto moratorium was issued in 64 and then 72, the US Supreme Court said no more.
Speaker: And then all 52 inmates that were on death row at that time had their sentences commuted to life in prison in March of 1973.
Speaker: So then in late 1973, the
Speaker: Texas passed a law that would standardize executions and there was no longer a halt on the death penalty and death row began to fill up again by 1974 and his execution was in 82.
Speaker: So they had to, I guess, put all of those procedures in place.
Speaker: They had to wait for all those death row people to line up and they started it again.
Speaker: So then lethal injection was then introduced in 1977 by a medical examiner, Jay Chapman, and that became the standard.
Speaker: So he was just like, hey, these concoction of drugs will actually just put him to sleep and kill him.
Speaker: Basically.
Speaker: I'm sure it's changed since then.
Speaker: So prior to lethal injection, the state used the electric chair to execute inmates.
Speaker: And from when the chair was first introduced in 1923 until 1964, when executions were halted, Texas electrocuted 361 inmates using the electric chair.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: And on the first day that they had the electric chair in February of 1942, they executed five people in one day.
Speaker: I wonder if those are on that website.
Speaker: No, these are.
Speaker: Charles Brooks is the first person on that website.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: And he was the first done by lethal injection.
Speaker: I could probably do a deep dive on the electric chair.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: But it'd be easier to find if they were on that website.
Speaker: There's probably another website, though.
Speaker: Maybe.
Speaker: But that's like the Texas...
Speaker: Department of Criminal Justice, right?
Speaker: So you would think that maybe there is like a section on there, though.
Speaker: Maybe we just aren't looking at the right section.
Speaker: Well, I mean, you got me onto this one first.
Speaker: I know.
Speaker: So one more fun fact.
Speaker: Are you ready?
Speaker: You're full of fun facts tonight.
Speaker: I am.
Speaker: So do you know what they called the electric chair in Huntsville?
Speaker: No, but I'm kind of scared.
Speaker: They called him Old Sparky.
Speaker: That's so bad.
Speaker: It's so bad, but it's so funny, but it's not.
Speaker: Old Sparky.
Speaker: I told that to John.
Speaker: He was like, are you serious?
Speaker: And I was like, dead serious.
Speaker: Dead.
Speaker: No pun intended.
Speaker: Wow.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I wonder if they still have Old Sparky.
Speaker: I bet they do, like in a room somewhere.
Speaker: I'm going to have to look that up now.
Speaker: It's going to be like a historical.
Speaker: Where is Old Sparky?
Speaker: It's probably in a museum somewhere.
Speaker: Yeah, it's probably like a historical artifact.
Speaker: Not an artifact.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, the Apple computers that we used back in high school are now in a museum somewhere.
Speaker: So it has to be.
Speaker: The ones that were the box with the colors?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Old Sparky has to be then.
Speaker: He has to be there.
Speaker: I'm going to find it.
Speaker: So that concludes today's history lesson for you, Jennifer.
Speaker: Thank you.
Speaker: Did you learn anything?
Speaker: I did.
Speaker: You had lots of fun facts, actually, that I learned from.
Speaker: I did.
Speaker: Well, I learned that you should never use heroin and murder somebody, especially if it's in Texas.
Speaker: Well, you should never murder anybody or use heroin.
Speaker: Well, that too.
Speaker: But definitely don't do them together.
Speaker: But if you're doing one of the two, use heroin instead of murdering somebody.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: But wait.
Speaker: But I'm not condoning drug use, people.
Speaker: But that is it for tonight, my friends.
Speaker: Have a good evening, a good day, whenever you read this or read this, whenever you hear this with your ears.
Speaker: And we will see you next time.
Speaker: Bye.
