Poetry, Writing, and Work with Lynn W. Francis

Transcript

Speaker: Recently, I was meeting up with a writer's group and one of our members quoted someone that she couldn't remember who had said it.

Speaker: But the quote was, life is too short to hate doing something you love.

Speaker: And that kind of hit me because I'm like, oh, shoot, I do kind of hate writing a lot of times.

Speaker: But it's like one of my favorite things and I shouldn't.

Speaker: do that.

Speaker: Like that's not the point of it.

Speaker: The point is, you know, the artistic creation and the, um, just the adventure of it.

Speaker: Hello everybody, welcome back to Artists of the Way.

Speaker: I'm John, your host.

Speaker: Today is an exciting episode because I'm joined by my wife, Lynn W. Francis.

Speaker: Obviously my last name is not Francis.

Speaker: That is her pen name, which we will be referring to her as throughout the length of this episode.

Speaker: Thank you very much for that.

Speaker: You're welcome.

Speaker: I'm very courteous.

Speaker: Lynn is a poet, author, painter, sometimes actor.

Speaker: What else do you do, hon?

Speaker: I enjoy being outside.

Speaker: I enjoy hanging out with friends.

Speaker: Social butterfly, I guess.

Speaker: Outdoors woman.

Speaker: I suppose.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Fantastic.

Speaker: Artistically, though, that basically covers it.

Speaker: Cool.

Speaker: A little bit of everything.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: We have just recently surpassed the one year anniversary of Lynn's book, which is me and God locked in a room and only one of us has the key.

Speaker: which is a really awesome poetry book about our relationship with God and a lot of the difficult things in that.

Speaker: So we're going to talk a little bit about that today.

Speaker: We're going to talk a little bit about what your relationship with God was like throughout the process of creating that.

Speaker: I'm really excited about that.

Speaker: First, I have a couple questions that I ask all my guests.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: Quiet bird.

Speaker: There's a bird outside.

Speaker: We're like, we're doing a different setup today.

Speaker: So we're closer to my windows so you can hear the sounds of nature a little more.

Speaker: It's perfect for an outdoors woman.

Speaker: It's great.

Speaker: So what are you working on right now?

Speaker: Artistically or just in general?

Speaker: Artistically.

Speaker: Right now, well, my very loving husband has threatened me that he is going to publish my novel that I have been working on for the past, like,

Speaker: seven years if I don't do it myself.

Speaker: So right now I am working on that.

Speaker: Um, I've had a manuscript for probably five years, four years, something like that.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: which is awesome and amazing but now you know i started writing it in high school and so there's a lot that i need to fix i need to um completely rewrite the ending which is a bummer um but i think we'll give it a lot stronger um way to end out the book and i need to rework some different characters things like that so it's a lot of work

Speaker: And it's a little daunting, but I am hoping to have that finished before the end of the year, at least this draft finished before the end of the year so that I can give it to my beta readers.

Speaker: They can give me some feedback.

Speaker: I can implement that and hopefully tentatively be moving forward with that sometime summer of next year.

Speaker: That's exciting.

Speaker: Cool.

Speaker: Thank you.

Speaker: I'm excited about it too.

Speaker: It's been a long time coming.

Speaker: It has been.

Speaker: That's exciting.

Speaker: As you've been working on that and other artistic things, what are some ways that you feel like God has been speaking to you or engaging with you through your art?

Speaker: That's a good question.

Speaker: I would say a lot of it is... I don't know.

Speaker: I guess...

Speaker: about discipline right now i am not an ambitious person whatsoever i have a lot of dreams and goals and usually i am content if i do not reach those dreams and goals i'm good to be where i am which is why i've had this manuscript for so long um but i feel like um through my relationships uh

Speaker: encouraging me artistically i have been um growing a lot in you know rededicating myself to it applying myself to it working on just the work of it a lot of times writing for me feels especially with um the novel as opposed to poetry which is a lot more short form with a novel it feels a lot more like work and

Speaker: when I'm doing something that I love, I don't want it to be work.

Speaker: So then that kind of, that kind of like butts up against why I'm doing it and I get frustrated.

Speaker: So a lot of just patience, I guess, and application and just, you know, kind of getting through the slog of it to get to the other side where it like will become fun again, basically.

Speaker: Yeah, that's fair.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I feel like

Speaker: There's something to be said about a theology of work amidst that in that like we are made for work.

Speaker: So I feel like there can be a beautiful melding of the two of like a passion and love of something or like of a hobby and a work for it.

Speaker: But I feel like you have to work to get there.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker: And it's like the, what's the passage about like finding joy in your work and like working with a joyful heart and all of that.

Speaker: Recently, I was meeting up with a writer's group and one of our members quoted someone that said,

Speaker: She couldn't remember who had said it, but the quote was, life is too short to hate doing something you love.

Speaker: And that kind of hit me because I'm like, oh, shoot, I do kind of hate writing a lot of times, but it's like one of my favorite things and I shouldn't.

Speaker: do that.

Speaker: Like that's not the point of it.

Speaker: The point is, you know, the artistic creation and the, um, just the adventure of it and need to get back to that.

Speaker: So I think that's something that, um, God is working me in, working in me right now.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And I do feel like, Oh darn, I lost my abstract thought.

Speaker: It was like right there.

Speaker: Oh no.

Speaker: You sound very insincere there.

Speaker: Oh no.

Speaker: No, I feel like,

Speaker: Even in the working of it, you're living into A, what God made you to do in writing, and B, the way he designed us because we were designed...

Speaker: like with work in mind like even before the fall we were working in the garden we were tending to things naming the animals gardening a lot there just weren't thorns which was better um or maybe the thorns just didn't hurt that's true got a poke and it was like a little tickle and you were like why threw it away no no that was weird

Speaker: Moving on.

Speaker: Let's talk about your book.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: God Locked in a Room.

Speaker: And only one of us has the key.

Speaker: It's been out for over a year now.

Speaker: It has.

Speaker: It's craziness.

Speaker: Yup.

Speaker: How does that feel?

Speaker: It feels good.

Speaker: It's a little strange because last, so it came out last August.

Speaker: August, I think, was it 4th?

Speaker: Was the big release party at Baker Book House.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And leading up to that for maybe like six months, I think it was, it was a lot of compiling and rewriting and refining and organizing and the formatting.

Speaker: Oh, I self-published.

Speaker: And the formatting of a book.

Speaker: You know, I'm hoping that the novel will be easier because that's just one big, long stretch of text.

Speaker: But with the poetry book, there are all these little fiddly things like different...

Speaker: I can't remember the name of it, but like when you make a picture with your poem, you know, there's a couple different ones that I have that are arranged in a very specific way to work with the poetry and figuring out how to get that from my notes app on my phone into a document that could be then published.

Speaker: made into a book was just incredibly frustrating and took a very long time.

Speaker: So leading up to the release, it was a lot of work.

Speaker: And then the release of it was just like absolute like adrenaline and celebration and joy and excitement and...

Speaker: was this huge thing where it's like, oh my gosh, I did the thing.

Speaker: I did the thing I've been wanting to do since I was a tiny little child.

Speaker: And I made a book and it's here now.

Speaker: And then...

Speaker: After the event, things just got really quiet.

Speaker: It wasn't like a huge critical success or anything, you know.

Speaker: It isn't like people across the world are reading my book.

Speaker: I did have, I was very lucky to have some people across the country, at least, who did and many people.

Speaker: friends and family who had recommended it to different people or gifted it and so I heard a little bit of feedback about that but it was just kind of quiet after that for a really long time and that was a little hard because it felt like oh we had this big lead up and this big exciting thing and now it's just quiet but I mean it is poetry it's faith-based poetry it's self-published faith-based poetry it's very niche

Speaker: Niche within niche within niche.

Speaker: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker: So, I mean, that isn't entirely unexpected.

Speaker: Maybe a little bit of a letdown, but I didn't do it for like the acclaim or whatever, you know?

Speaker: So that was fine.

Speaker: But so getting to the year anniversary of it, it's a little strange because I've had so many other things going on.

Speaker: I kind of forget about it sometimes.

Speaker: It's something that I did and now it's over, you know?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Like getting to the year anniversary of a show isn't really a landmark in any way.

Speaker: But then it just occurred to me while I was home a lot over the last few weeks, I'm like, oh, hey, it really has.

Speaker: It's been a year.

Speaker: That's crazy that so much time has passed.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: I guess it feels good that it still exists, even though maybe people aren't talking about it very much.

Speaker: It's still out there.

Speaker: It's still on people's bookshelves.

Speaker: It's still available to get.

Speaker: I have a stack of them in my office.

Speaker: There's some at our favorite coffee shop, The Stray.

Speaker: Check it out.

Speaker: It's a great coffee shop.

Speaker: You can check it out.

Speaker: It's amazing.

Speaker: So it still exists and it's out there and it has been for a whole year.

Speaker: And that's one of the really cool things about books in general is just like once you've written it, it just, it exists, you know, like there's no unexisting it unless it's like a Library of Alexandria situation.

Speaker: And we don't want to talk about that.

Speaker: But yeah, I feel like that's a difference in

Speaker: Because I think in general with art, I feel like it is a lot of like, there's excitement of initial idea and then there's work to actually make it a thing.

Speaker: And then there's like elation that you did it.

Speaker: But then once you've done it, I feel like a lot of times it just goes out there in the ether and you don't really know what it did.

Speaker: But with books and music a lot of times,

Speaker: as opposed to like a performance art.

Speaker: Like, its life continues past just the memory, but it like is now something that you've birthed that is alive and kind of like a child now has its own life out there separate from you.

Speaker: Yeah, and it just kind of... But still is doing things as God wants it to.

Speaker: And like, to think, like, I don't know, it's a self-published book, but there's...

Speaker: you know, copies out there now and, like, years down the line after I'm dead, like, if the book itself, like, a physical copy of the book survives, you know, it can get passed on.

Speaker: It can end up in somebody's library that, like, their kids discover or maybe it gets donated to a library or it ends up at a thrift store and then goes on from there, you know, like, it could live a whole life.

Speaker: Like, there's...

Speaker: a quote from um matilda by roald doll um which is always makes me cry anytime i see it but it's like um about how authors send their books out like ships on the sea and then they just kind of go and forge their own journey there like you were saying so yeah it's it's kind of cool

Speaker: That is cool.

Speaker: Do you feel like in sort of this, this, I don't know, second or third phase, keep adjusting my mic.

Speaker: I'm sorry if you're hearing bumps.

Speaker: Do you feel like in this sort of second or third phase of the book,

Speaker: I don't know, is there like a special memory now that the work on it is done and it's just out there?

Speaker: Do you have a special memory or moment you treasure of seeing God in it or just something that was like affirming to you through the book now living in other people's lives?

Speaker: There have been a few.

Speaker: One of our close friends came over.

Speaker: I can't remember what the occasion was, but we ended up talking about the book because I wanted to pick his brain on a little bit and see what he had thought of it.

Speaker: And that conversation was really special because, you know, he was talking about the different ways that he had related to it.

Speaker: And he had realized, oh, I'm not alone in feeling this, you know.

Speaker: It's not just me and I'm not, I don't know, weird or sad or anything, you know, because someone else is out there experiencing the same thing and it's okay.

Speaker: And that was a really special experience.

Speaker: As far as God working in me, just...

Speaker: Putting the book together was kind of a revelation.

Speaker: It was really weird because I had, I had printed out, I started going in.

Speaker: I'm like, okay, I'm going to make a poetry collection.

Speaker: I didn't really know what the collection was going to be.

Speaker: I just decided that I was going to make one.

Speaker: And I knew that one day I wanted, I was like, okay, I could make a poetry collection about like

Speaker: romance i could make a poetry collection about friendship those are two things that i have many poems about um i could make a poetry collection about god i can make a poetry collection about you know whatever so i printed out all of my poems which there were hundreds and when i say hundreds there are not hundreds that are good there are hundreds that exist um

Speaker: So I printed them all out and I sorted through them all and I'm like, okay, these are the ones that actually have potential and these are the ones where I woke up at two in the morning and wrote something on my phone and then went back to sleep when I woke up.

Speaker: I didn't remember what it went.

Speaker: So I printed all those out and sorted through and kind of put them into categories of like what they were about or like what they could reflect and move forward from there.

Speaker: And I'm like, you know, I really think this like

Speaker: faith-based or like religious one this one about god has the best collection the most solid idea behind it so i'm gonna go for that so i picked out the ones that i thought were the best that were my favorite whatever i didn't have a specific i guess method to it i just kind of picked them and arranged them in a way that made sense to me yeah

Speaker: And then just ran with it.

Speaker: And there were a few that I wrote for the collection as well that I was like, you know, I think we really need another one between these two or like we need to like flip these around and like make this one longer or put these two together into one.

Speaker: And I realized, I think it was after I had the book itself, I want to say like after I had gotten like my first author copy to proofread and make sure that everything printed right and everything.

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

Speaker: I was reading it and at this point I've read these poems hundreds of times, you know, and reworked them so many times.

Speaker: I think I'd gotten so close that I wasn't able to see what had happened, which was that there was like a very significant pattern of them.

Speaker: Like in it, it starts out in this really kind of like almost hopeless place and this place of, um,

Speaker: religious angst and discomfort in the relationship with God, distrust in God.

Speaker: And it grows through that into like kind of an examination of sin in our world and in us.

Speaker: And then from that, it turns into almost like prayer or supplication, like several pieces about, you know, like trying to

Speaker: to reach out to God or God trying to reach out to us.

Speaker: And then from there it turns into praise and just the joy of the relationship of the healing there of just everything like kind of culminating and it doesn't disregard anything that's happened.

Speaker: But because of what's happened already, you can see how that hope has survived.

Speaker: And I just reading it, it ministered to me like it was.

Speaker: reading it, I felt less alone, even though I was the one who had written it.

Speaker: It almost felt like I wasn't, like it was a piece of art that I was experiencing for the first time, or not even necessarily for the first time, but really, like, it spoke to me, and I felt the presence of something beyond myself in the

Speaker: the words which was an incredible experience and it really brought home the fact that I'm not the only one writing these words you know like God is working through me and in me and it's not just for other people I've seen this post on the internet it's probably from tumblr or something that I've just seen re-shared many times but it says

Speaker: in your life, you, like, to make a good life or something, like, you only have to save one person, and it's okay if that person is yourself.

Speaker: And, like, I don't know if I completely agree with that statement, but I think it's true that, like, a lot of times we get, especially, like, as artists or as Christians, you know, we get so focused on doing things for other people, or maybe it's just, like, whatever Enneagram number I

Speaker: But you get so focused on doing things for other people or for God, you know, or for XYZ, whatever.

Speaker: And you forget to take care of yourself or you forget that this can minister to you as well.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And I definitely am that way too.

Speaker: And I saw in that I was like, well, dang, you know, like God is here for me too.

Speaker: And I made this, but...

Speaker: it's still speaking to me.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Do you feel like there were particular ways or particular poems that God used in either that moment when you reread it and the Holy Spirit kind of spoke to you through it or as you were working on that, do you feel like there were specific poems or moments or aspects that God like ministered to you in?

Speaker: Like, was there a particular thing he kind of shared in that form?

Speaker: if that makes sense.

Speaker: Yeah, that does, that does make sense.

Speaker: I'm just trying to think.

Speaker: Two come to mind.

Speaker: One is the poem Serpentine, which I wrote for the collection.

Speaker: I realized I was like, something is missing and it needs a poem about this.

Speaker: And I don't have a poem about this, so I need to write a poem about this.

Speaker: And I was very salty about it.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: And it's about, it's kind of like that people with, I think, like anxiety can relate or just people who have anxiety in their relationship with God.

Speaker: But it's that thought of like, okay, if this God made God,

Speaker: the world and there's so much pain in the world how can i trust him you know um and it's one of those that i was talking about the formatting because it's formatted um like the curves of a snake as it's as it's slithering along and that's not by accident um but

Speaker: so I had to write that poem and I remember I was sitting in a coffee shop in Holland eating a donut just steaming because I was trying to write this poem and I was just having a heck of a time and

Speaker: It was hard because it is an emotion that I feel a lot of times.

Speaker: It's one of those things that I have to wrestle with as a believer of why are things this way when they don't have to be.

Speaker: I think even non-believers wrestle with that, you know, like, what does it all mean?

Speaker: But I was sitting there and I was wrestling and I realized part of what was making me uncomfortable is I was very much like, I want to do this for God.

Speaker: You know, if I'm making this collection about God.

Speaker: my relationship with him about his love for me about all of this stuff like I can't be doing it for myself you know I have to do it for him and for like I don't know just I guess that unspecific other person you know like I have to do it not for myself and writing this poem felt like such an attack

Speaker: on God basically which it was a very honest emotion like it's something that I struggle with I know other people who struggle with it too but like being in that space with God was very uncomfortable for me of like I'm writing this poem about how I don't trust you and you're right there and it's making me uncomfy you know um and

Speaker: There weren't, like, words spoken.

Speaker: I didn't, like, get, like, a certain sense from the spirit or anything like that about it.

Speaker: But I felt...

Speaker: like i had to do it and it wasn't like i have to do this to like prove my prowess as an author like i just i had to write it because it belonged there in an artistic sense i think you understand like um there are things about a piece of art that you don't necessarily like but you need to have it because it matters to the story yeah and

Speaker: It was one that I really had to like fight with myself to get that to work.

Speaker: And I guess it kind of opened up that door of like it's okay if you're not happy with God all the time.

Speaker: It's okay to be angry.

Speaker: It's okay to have those feelings.

Speaker: But it's important to like talk about it.

Speaker: Because if you just like let it fester, you know.

Speaker: Then resentment grows.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And it's like pushing the beach ball down in the water.

Speaker: It'll go.

Speaker: It's a God-sized beach ball.

Speaker: It's a God-sized.

Speaker: That's too big a beach ball.

Speaker: I can't push that under the water, you know.

Speaker: Weakling.

Speaker: But.

Speaker: So there's that.

Speaker: And then there is the.

Speaker: There's a poem called Cycle.

Speaker: Cycle.

Speaker: which is a poem that I actually wrote on my Instagram page.

Speaker: I'll do prompt notes.

Speaker: requests where I'll put out and I'll be like, hey, do any of my followers have something you want me to write a poem about?

Speaker: And then I'll do my best to write a poem about that.

Speaker: And sometimes I'm not good at it.

Speaker: But it was a prompt from one of my followers.

Speaker: It was like, I want you to write a poem about cycles.

Speaker: And I was like, okay, well, that's really vague, which I love because then I can do whatever I want with it.

Speaker: And it became one of my favorite poems I have ever written.

Speaker: And it's about how –

Speaker: Everything happens at the same time.

Speaker: If you've seen the movie Arrival, I know it's one of your favorite movies.

Speaker: If you haven't seen the movie Arrival, you should see the movie Arrival.

Speaker: It is really good.

Speaker: It's so good.

Speaker: One of my top ten favorite movies.

Speaker: Go watch it after this episode.

Speaker: And then tell me what you thought.

Speaker: It's only like two hours.

Speaker: I'm sorry, I totally derailed your point.

Speaker: It's fine.

Speaker: So Arrival.

Speaker: So if you've seen the movie... Are we about to spoil Arrival?

Speaker: No, I'm not about to spoil Arrival.

Speaker: If you've seen the movie, you'll appreciate this.

Speaker: But something that I feel about life in general and the nature of time is just, you know, it kind of goes...

Speaker: in kind of a circular motion, you know, it isn't linear.

Speaker: I always picture in Avengers is that, is it Endgame or is it Infinity War where Tilda Swinton does the whole like thing.

Speaker: Endgame.

Speaker: Endgame and they go like that.

Speaker: Why don't you picture the spaghetti bowl from Flash?

Speaker: See, that's more like what I'm saying.

Speaker: So like if you've seen Flash, different subject here.

Speaker: It's like all the things that have happened like in the past and in the future and in the present, like they're all kind of like, you know, mixed together and they all like affect each other.

Speaker: And time has this secular nature.

Speaker: And so that's what the poem is about.

Speaker: And about how, yeah, all these bad things happen in life and it sucks.

Speaker: But also all these good things happen in life and you can't like necessarily, it isn't that you can't have one without the other, but no one thing is the end all be all.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: You know, like there's always something good coming again and there's always something bad that's going to happen.

Speaker: But

Speaker: like they even out, you know, and turn into this kind of like cycle.

Speaker: And I like cry every time I read that poem because that is something that I need to remember as just a human.

Speaker: Because I get very focused as a, like, I don't know, depressive, anxiety-ridden individual.

Speaker: I get very focused on the bad thing that's coming.

Speaker: And I'm like, oh, no, you know.

Speaker: There is a big traumatic event that's going to happen and I'm going to lose everything that I love and I'm going to be all alone and all of that great stuff.

Speaker: And I need to be reminded that...

Speaker: there's something good coming to like even if all that terrible horrible stuff happens that's not the end of the story like the story keeps going and there's going to be more good in it and maybe it's just a tragic backstory you haven't even gotten to the plot of the book yet you know um and i just need to be reminded of that personally so like writing that and then rereading that anytime i read it i'm just like oh

Speaker: I needed to hear that today.

Speaker: Like, even if I read it every day, twice a day, I'm like, oh, I needed to hear that today, you know, because it's just something I need to hear all the time.

Speaker: And I think that that's really a gift that I got from writing poetry in general.

Speaker: But then now that it's been immortalized in this collection, writing this collection, too.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Hey friends, I hope you're enjoying today's episode.

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Speaker: Enjoy the rest of the show.

Speaker: I'm curious, with writing the collection, is there anything that you would point out as a unique thing to the creative process of assembling a collection?

Speaker: Because I feel like...

Speaker: Because poems are like a short standalone thing.

Speaker: A novel is a lot and huge.

Speaker: You're not wrong.

Speaker: Same with like a play or a painting.

Speaker: And I feel like this is kind of the same with like albums too.

Speaker: they're a collection of a bunch of smaller pieces of art, but a lot of times they in and of themselves as a whole are also the piece of art.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: Do you think there's anything unique in the process of forming the collection as a piece of art as opposed to a small poem or a large tapestry of a story that was planned out that way from the beginning?

Speaker: Sure.

Speaker: So, well, writing one piece

Speaker: poem you know just one piece for me a lot of time is almost a reflexive habit like I'll be something will just pop into my head or I'll feel inspired by something or I'll be like you know I want to write a poem about this I'll just go for it um and then I'll just kind of set it down and not think about it again with doing the collection I

Speaker: that was something where I had to put a lot more thought into it.

Speaker: Like you mentioned, like with the novel, right?

Speaker: Like there's been this huge plan since like day one and that plan has changed a million times, but there's always been a plan because if you don't have a plan, your character is just wandering around and then sometimes a story will happen, but it might not.

Speaker: And so you have to think about, okay, how does this piece,

Speaker: go into the next piece, go into the next piece.

Speaker: And I love reading poetry.

Speaker: Something I don't love as much I've discovered is when it's like the collected works of X author, you know, because then it's really just a lot of times it just feels like here are all the poems they wrote about their wife and here are all the poems they wrote about birds, you know, and it's like they're just kind of all plopped down together without regard to and I don't know, I've never arranged one of these collections.

Speaker: This is how it'll feel reading it at least.

Speaker: it'll just kind of feel like, here are all the poems they wrote between, like, 1903 and 1904.

Speaker: And it's like, but they don't have anything to do with each other, you know?

Speaker: So, like, you're reading it and you're like, oh, like, here's a really good poem about an afternoon they spent on the lake.

Speaker: And then next it's like, here's a poem about their wife who's dead now.

Speaker: And it's like, all right, you know?

Speaker: I guess that's how we're doing things.

Speaker: And then it'll just be kind of like this...

Speaker: very it just feels like a bunch of things pushed together yeah writing a collection you have to think about or i think you should think about the story that it creates outside of the poems like originally i had poems selected to be in this collection that eventually i cut out because they just didn't fit not because i necessarily even thought they weren't good enough or that i don't ever want to share them but

Speaker: And it's hard to explain because there isn't a main character, although I guess it's probably either me or God because we're the two in the title.

Speaker: But there isn't a main character with a name who you follow through the entire thing.

Speaker: There isn't an inciting incident.

Speaker: There isn't any of the fun plot stuff happening that would happen in a novel or in a movie or in a play or in anything else.

Speaker: like that but there is a cohesive story you know you follow the ebb and flow of it and each piece leads into the next piece in one way or other whether it's like subject matter or whether it's tone or whether it's um rhythm you know whatever it is it makes sense in a way the way that it goes

Speaker: Yeah, and I remember you talking about when you were putting it together.

Speaker: I think this was you.

Speaker: Maybe it was me and I'm putting words in your mouth.

Speaker: Oh, well, that's fine.

Speaker: But there was like, it felt like there were like three characters in it that were developing throughout, which was me and then you with a lowercase y. Yes.

Speaker: And you with an uppercase y and me was obviously you.

Speaker: This is about to get real confusing.

Speaker: Me was you.

Speaker: The character of me was me.

Speaker: Or the reader, I suppose.

Speaker: Yeah, it was like the reader.

Speaker: It was like a self insert for myself, but then it could be for anyone else.

Speaker: And then the you character.

Speaker: With a lowercase y or an uppercase y?

Speaker: With lowercase i. Lowercase y. This is getting confusing.

Speaker: I know.

Speaker: The lowercase u was, oh gosh, was it you?

Speaker: Sometimes it was me.

Speaker: It was mostly, it was just like whoever other human was there.

Speaker: It was like another human.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Another person.

Speaker: doing whatever they do in the story of them.

Speaker: Sometimes.

Speaker: If the person in the poem did something really egregious and horrible, it was probably me.

Speaker: You didn't do anything egregious and horrible in this collection.

Speaker: Maybe in the romance collection when we get there, but you know, it's fine.

Speaker: And then you with a capital Y was God, right?

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And so you're kind of tracing.

Speaker: I feel like I remember you like thinking through, okay, where are these three characters going from one poem to the next to kind of piece it together?

Speaker: That's true.

Speaker: See, I had even kind of forgotten about that.

Speaker: It's been a year, friends.

Speaker: It's been a long time.

Speaker: That's why husbands are here to help remember.

Speaker: I forget way more than she does.

Speaker: Except for when it comes to lines.

Speaker: I'm good at memorizing lines.

Speaker: I only forget lines sometimes.

Speaker: I'm not saying you're bad at it.

Speaker: I'm just...

Speaker: you're not bad at it i'm just better i'm just i'm amazing i'm gonna go repent of my pride after this podcast episode um

Speaker: That's cool, though.

Speaker: I'm curious.

Speaker: I think you've had a fair few people, at least like amongst our friends, read this who don't usually read poetry.

Speaker: And so it's been a way for some people who don't usually engage with poetry or find poetry exciting or interesting to get into poetry.

Speaker: What do you think it is about poetry that...

Speaker: that is important and resonant to the reader.

Speaker: Sure.

Speaker: Well, hmm.

Speaker: Well, I haven't seen Dead Poets Society, so I don't know.

Speaker: It's like Robin Williams.

Speaker: I don't know his big speech because that would probably be really fitting here.

Speaker: Maybe you should just get like a clip of that and just put it in.

Speaker: Editor John, put in a dead... No, I'll get copyright strike.

Speaker: Yeah, don't get copyright infringement.

Speaker: So go research that on your own time, viewers of the podcast slash listeners of the podcast.

Speaker: Because I feel like I've seen it and I was like, yeah, but then I forgot because I haven't seen the movie.

Speaker: Which we should probably watch, by the way.

Speaker: We should.

Speaker: I've seen it before.

Speaker: You have?

Speaker: I saw it at Dad's, so that meant a lot of times the heat was up high and I didn't hear all the dialogue.

Speaker: Okay, well, let's watch it again.

Speaker: I feel like the dialogue is probably pretty important.

Speaker: I remember it being good.

Speaker: Robin Williams is just always amazing.

Speaker: Robin Williams is always amazing.

Speaker: Anyway.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Poetry can be difficult to get into, I think.

Speaker: I remember as a young person going to the library and we would pick out just masses and masses of books to take home and read.

Speaker: And because, you know, that's what you do when you're homeschooled.

Speaker: So...

Speaker: I dabbed for the listeners who don't know why she just started listening.

Speaker: I dabbed.

Speaker: I don't know why you dabbed.

Speaker: And it was because I'm a homeschooler and we took home a lot of books.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: The dab was glorious.

Speaker: Anyway.

Speaker: Sorry, you're just getting a snapshot of what Shay and I do at our home.

Speaker: So this podcast is a little more chaotic than most of the episodes.

Speaker: In my everyday life.

Speaker: I suffer.

Speaker: Not only are you seeing a slice of life, you're seeing me be ripped apart by my wife live on it.

Speaker: Well, not live.

Speaker: Anyways, I'm interrupting your question.

Speaker: What else is new?

Speaker: Anyway.

Speaker: I hope you all find this entertaining.

Speaker: If you don't, I am so sorry.

Speaker: All my listeners just start unsubscribing.

Speaker: They're like, the podcast is... They hit that 15-second skip like a hundred times.

Speaker: It's gone downhill, man.

Speaker: It used to be better.

Speaker: Anyway.

Speaker: Okay, let's do this.

Speaker: So, poetry can be hard to get into, like this conversation, but...

Speaker: I remember as a kid in the library, I would be looking at like titles on the shelf, you know, and I would be like, oh, this sounds super cool.

Speaker: And I'd get it down and be like, wow, what a dope title.

Speaker: Like me and God locked in a room and only one of us has the key.

Speaker: And then I would look at it and be like, palms.

Speaker: Oh, shoot.

Speaker: And I put it back.

Speaker: Because who wants to read poetry?

Speaker: I wanted something with a story.

Speaker: I wanted something interesting.

Speaker: I wanted an adventure.

Speaker: And poetry just didn't seem like that to me, to read a whole book of it.

Speaker: The individual poem I really liked, we did a few courses on poetry and we had this book that my mom read us of poetry and there's a lot of poetry in the Lord of the Rings books and in The Hobbit, you know, yeah.

Speaker: Just like books in general from like that era, especially I feel like a lot of times they would just be like, and now it's time for a song.

Speaker: And so you'd have a song.

Speaker: So I knew poetry and I loved poetry and I enjoyed writing it, but I didn't ever really want to read it.

Speaker: I don't know how that makes any sense, but that was how I felt.

Speaker: I mean, it makes sense.

Speaker: I'm bad at reading novels and I'm writing a novel, so...

Speaker: Yeah, not ideal situation.

Speaker: Not ideal.

Speaker: I try.

Speaker: I know, it's okay, you're getting better.

Speaker: It's getting better.

Speaker: I got better.

Speaker: Anyway.

Speaker: But what I think is important about it is it does something...

Speaker: It like it makes you think in a different way because there's so much analogy and simile and, you know, all these just weird things happening in it, especially if you've read E.E.

Speaker: Cummings, you know, like his poetry is just like, what's going on?

Speaker: Half of these words are splattered like blood across this page and I can't like understand.

Speaker: So it's like a little puzzle you have to solve to even be able to read the poem.

Speaker: And it's just a very different form of writing.

Speaker: Most of what I do is free verse.

Speaker: It's kind of unstructured.

Speaker: A lot of times it reads more like just, you know, a story or something like that, which I think is a little more accessible, which is probably something that, um, like the friends that we have who haven't read tons of poetry, like maybe something they find more approachable about it is there isn't so much weirdness going on.

Speaker: Um, yeah.

Speaker: And it's kind of more like, especially I remember a couple of people coming up to us like at the event and being like, hey, I don't read poetry, but like this made sense, you know, and I'm like, oh, cool.

Speaker: And I think maybe part of it is because of that.

Speaker: And part of it is because of the subject matter.

Speaker: And part of it, I think, is maybe people don't realize what poetry is.

Speaker: you know, um, like me as a child being like, Oh, I don't want to read that.

Speaker: That's poetry.

Speaker: That's stupid.

Speaker: But like, what are 80% of children's books?

Speaker: You know, what's Dr. Zeus, you know, like those, you know, like it's poetry in a different way, but it is, um, yeah.

Speaker: What are like the little like notes that you write someone you love, you know, that are just like, Oh, you're,

Speaker: you're okay well now i'm thinking of shakespeare that's not a note you write so many love what's shakespeare you know like it's what did i wear a glove on that hand that i might touch your cheek you know like it's it's it just can be so many things and i don't even remember what the original question was now so i'm just kind of rambling um

Speaker: Ramble away.

Speaker: Okay.

Speaker: Um, so really, I feel like you have to read it to kind of know what it is and to find how it's important to you.

Speaker: And some people just aren't into poetry and that's fine.

Speaker: There's enough poetry just in life.

Speaker: You know, you don't need to read it to experience it.

Speaker: Like it's just out there in the world.

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: I just feel as being a writer, I feel the need to try to capture it and put it down so that other people can understand it in the most abstract way possible as poets do.

Speaker: And I don't know, I guess it's important because it makes you think in a different way and it makes you notice more things.

Speaker: Like I think if you read poetry, even if you don't enjoy the poetry, like there have been some poetry books that I have read that I have just been like, what?

Speaker: is happening and why I'm here and I want to leave.

Speaker: I think one of them is probably on that bookshelf.

Speaker: That one you got in Colorado.

Speaker: Oh yeah.

Speaker: That we thought was going to be super cool.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And then I was like, what is this?

Speaker: Um,

Speaker: My poetry isn't like that.

Speaker: What was it called?

Speaker: It had the word God in it.

Speaker: So we were like, this has to be awesome.

Speaker: Well, I don't know if that's what's true.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Anyway.

Speaker: You put God's name in something and it automatically will be great.

Speaker: You don't have to worry about telling a good story.

Speaker: This is not the truth.

Speaker: Don't listen to him.

Speaker: So, I don't know.

Speaker: Does that answer your question?

Speaker: I kind of got away from the question.

Speaker: No, it does.

Speaker: Okay, cool.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Good to know.

Speaker: So we are getting close to our wrap-up time here.

Speaker: This has been great.

Speaker: I'll have to invite you on again so we can have more conversations because there's no... We don't have enough of those already.

Speaker: We never talk.

Speaker: To save our marriage, we'll have you back on the podcast.

Speaker: It's like a very high-stakes game show every time I'm here.

Speaker: Like, are they going to repair their marriage or is this podcast going to end everything fall apart?

Speaker: gosh, that would be so weird.

Speaker: You just podcast every discussion you have as a couple.

Speaker: I feel like that'd be a really interesting concept for a fictional show.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: And then you could grow the characters.

Speaker: Some sadistic producer is listening to us and is like, reality TV show?

Speaker: Let's ruin a marriage.

Speaker: Anyways.

Speaker: Isn't that normal reality TV shows?

Speaker: Not always marriages.

Speaker: Sometimes it's families, lives.

Speaker: other generic aspects of life this isn't about reality tv this is about art let's get back on the topic john okay so resources yes um if somebody's wanting to grow in their faith or grow as an artist or maybe explore poetry i feel like i said explore weird there but we're gonna move on just roll with it roll with the explore um

Speaker: Nothing.

Speaker: What did you say?

Speaker: Roll with the explore.

Speaker: No, what did you say before that?

Speaker: What are you asking me?

Speaker: I'm so sorry, guys.

Speaker: This is easily the most chaotic episode I've done so far.

Speaker: She just gets flustered when I'm around.

Speaker: It's true.

Speaker: Anyways.

Speaker: What are some things that I would suggest?

Speaker: Yeah, some resources for people to grow in their faith or grow in their art or who would be interested in exploring, reading some more poetry and trying to...

Speaker: dip their toes into that sure um so if you're a christian and you want to explore some poetry i know it's been suggested on your podcast before but the psalms is a great place um job lamentations um i feel like there's one that i'm missing i don't know um some of the prophets have some poetry in there song of songs yeah song of songs that's a good one it's got some really strange imagery but you know

Speaker: It does, but it's also pretty... Anyway.

Speaker: Pretty almost R-rated for the chillins out there.

Speaker: Moving on.

Speaker: So I would suggest, you know, starting with the poetic books of the Bible.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: Because then it's two in one, poetry and Jesus.

Speaker: There are a lot of Christian authors out there who've written some excellent poetry.

Speaker: Madeleine L'Engle has a collection, The Ordering of Love, that I really loved.

Speaker: It's got a lot...

Speaker: about just love in a lot of different ways and then some like like poetic retellings of bible stories like which i thought was really interesting like i think there was one like by sarah of sarah and abraham that was really interesting and like so many that just made me cry and some dealing with like the loss of her first husband um and a second husband

Speaker: I don't remember.

Speaker: She's had a sad life, I think.

Speaker: Like reading this book, I was like, oh my gosh.

Speaker: So that's one that I would suggest.

Speaker: C.S.

Speaker: Lewis has a great old big book of poetry I was gifted last year for Christmas that I have yet to begin because I forgot I had it.

Speaker: But I love his other writings.

Speaker: I'm very excited for that.

Speaker: In general, I love...

Speaker: Ogden Nash, E.E.

Speaker: Cummings, I mentioned earlier, is great if you're looking for a puzzle of a poem to work out.

Speaker: Ogden Nash is just funny.

Speaker: He does a lot of cutesy and clever rhyming in his work.

Speaker: Jack Perlutsky.

Speaker: I think I'm saying his name right.

Speaker: He does a lot of like children's writing.

Speaker: It's him and Shel Silverstein.

Speaker: I grew up with like Where the Sidewalk Ends.

Speaker: A classic.

Speaker: I think Jack Perlutsky did.

Speaker: Shoot.

Speaker: Did he do Scranimals?

Speaker: I'm getting confused.

Speaker: I don't know.

Speaker: There's just a lot of really good stuff.

Speaker: Edgar Allan Poe.

Speaker: The original emo boy.

Speaker: I love his poems to death.

Speaker: They are just so good.

Speaker: To death.

Speaker: There's a couple weird ones.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: Because emo.

Speaker: Yeah, because emo, you know.

Speaker: His are fantastic.

Speaker: Shakespeare's sonnets, you know.

Speaker: There's tons, tons, tons, tons to read.

Speaker: Just jumping in.

Speaker: Maybe like a good way to get started would be

Speaker: like with a like a collection like oh here's love poems by like 100 great love poems or something like that or um just looking for those collections you know I find a lot of poetry on Instagram that I love oh Andrea Gibson is a good one um with button poetry um

Speaker: There's just tons of, like, Instagram poems that I have found and fallen in love with.

Speaker: Wendy Cope I found on Instagram and her poem about an orange that also makes me cry every time I read it.

Speaker: Just, there's tons.

Speaker: There's tons.

Speaker: I could go on and on and on.

Speaker: I probably shouldn't because we're getting to the end of the episode, but...

Speaker: Just try it, is what I'd say.

Speaker: Every poet has a really different style, too.

Speaker: They do.

Speaker: Just because I love Edgar Allan Poe doesn't mean everyone will, because he talks a lot about death.

Speaker: Right.

Speaker: is pretty okay with that, seems like, but, you know, maybe you, you want more cutesy poems, so then you could go find Shel Silverstein and read about, uh, children's, um, interpretation of the world, because I feel like that's how he writes a lot.

Speaker: Um, well, yeah, and, like, I've been dipping my toes into Wendell Berry.

Speaker: I have my big Wendell Berry poem book.

Speaker: Wendell Berry, yeah.

Speaker: Those ones are, I've read a few, and those are really good, too.

Speaker: But, like, I just feel like every poet has such a distinct style that,

Speaker: I feel like it's hard to be like, oh, yes, I like poetry as a blanket statement.

Speaker: I mean, I'm sure there's people that do, but I feel like for the average Joe, if you're like, I don't like poetry, you may just not have found the poet that...

Speaker: resonates with you yet exactly it's like you know anything else that you try for the first time like you like wine or cheese or whatever like you might not like a certain one but you can like try other ones and you can say oh well hey maybe i do like wine and cheese after all because there's amazing wine and cheese out there

Speaker: That's true.

Speaker: All right.

Speaker: Thank you for coming on and being a guest.

Speaker: This has been great.

Speaker: Where can people go to find updates and what you're doing and follow you?

Speaker: So I do have a website, lynnwfrancis.com.

Speaker: You can go there.

Speaker: I have a contact page if you want to get in touch.

Speaker: If you just want to kind of follow my artistic pursuits and whatnot, I do have an Instagram and Facebook.

Speaker: I'm Lynn W. Francis on Facebook and on Instagram.

Speaker: I'm Fervent Inc.

Speaker: Fervent underscore Inc.