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We Just Name Old Websites - But Also, ChatGPT Lawyer, Binance, Lewis Brisbois
91 Plays1 year ago
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Transcript
Introduction and Humor in Recording
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm hearing vacation sounds in the background, I think. I hear a mirth. I want the mirth to be brought down a level, if I can. Can you tell them no more mirth? I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. You guys can hear the mirth through my microphone. I hear nothing because I have noise cancellation on my headphones. You guys are getting all the mirth. I'm getting none of the mirth. It's joyfulness and we can't
Food Adventures and Expectations
00:00:20
Speaker
have it.
00:00:20
Speaker
Yeah, we went to get ice cream. We went to this ice cream shop or, I guess, confection shop. And guess what? Nobody got ice cream. So we went and got ice cream, but didn't get any. Yeah. Everybody wanted like fudge or chocolate cupboard stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Like you go to an ice cream shop.
00:00:38
Speaker
In Santa Cruz, where I went to school, there was a taffy place that had one of those taffy machines where you get to watch them make it.
Unconventional Choices and Subway Critique
00:00:49
Speaker
And that was super cool. I used to stand there. This is very neurodivergent of me to do. But I used to stand there and watch it as an adult pretty regularly. And then I never bought any. It's mesmerizing.
00:01:04
Speaker
Yeah. I knew a guy in law school who would go to Subway for the coffee. And I think about that probably once a week ever since. Yeah. He would go to Subway just for coffee. I don't know. I come at it from different angles at different parts of my life. Sometimes like at the time I thought it was insane. Like you don't go there and get a sandwich. That's obviously what you should get. But the more I thought about it, do you really want a Subway sandwich? They're not very good sandwiches. Maybe he has it figured out.
00:01:29
Speaker
You know what I mean? I like a subway sandwich. Oh, you do tell you, uh, chicken bacon ranch. There's also is really good. Um, there's like a Buffalo. I used to have anyway, the problem with subway. Go for it in Ireland. Uh, they're not allowed to call what they put all the meat on bread because of, I think if it's a sugar content, it's cake. So that's not bread. They have to call it something else.
00:01:56
Speaker
They're not allowed to call it a sandwich. They call it a burrito. As an Irish person, I can say this too. It's pretty damning if the Irish find your food intolerable.
00:02:10
Speaker
I mean, we're not known for like having really picky pallets. You know what I mean? Like we'll just boil a thousand gallons of potatoes and eat them like that. Anyway, people wouldn't know from what we're talking about
Meet the Hosts and Episode Introduction
00:02:20
Speaker
so far. This is Esquiring Minds episode 19 for June 8th, 2023. And what the show is is three lawyer friends just talking for our own enjoyment about potatoes and sliding various European countries' cuisines. And I'm one of the friends. Haggis is no good. That's Scottish though.
00:02:35
Speaker
I'm Andrew Leahy, I'm a tactics technology attorney. Oh, that's rough. I think Scott, people from Scotland would be more offended than people from Ireland because Scotland feels like they resisted in Ireland. And I think from their perception, Ireland kind of rolled over with the British.
00:02:53
Speaker
I think. Anyway, I'm one of the friends. I'm a tax and technology attorney and I'm from New Jersey and I'm joined as always by Mirthful Jason Raimsland. He's on vacation. Yeah. Well, you know, it's kind of last minute vacation.
Real Estate and Spontaneous Vacations
00:03:05
Speaker
Our house got listed like for real this time this week and we have a bunch of showings and we just don't want to be in town for them. So we decided to go to the beach.
00:03:13
Speaker
That's an awesome idea. Great excuse. Yeah, it wasn't my idea. My idea was to spend this time driving to the city that we're moving to and shopping for a new house that got shot down for a variety of reasons. So do you have an offer in the house that you showed us?
00:03:31
Speaker
No, no, no, no. We wanted to see so like Wednesday and Thursday are the days that all of the new houses pop up on the market like ours popped up today. And so we wanted to wait. Let me rephrase that. My lovely and dear wife wanted to wait to see what else was available up there that met our criteria yesterday and today. So I don't know. We'll see.
00:03:58
Speaker
might have something to do with the fact that you're jetting into a highway. The archipelago of grass that juts out into, is it a freeway? Is that what it is? The toll booth is right there. No, it's a tiny road. It's just a regular neighborhood street. It's actually the quieter neighborhood street.
Florida Living and Social Norms
00:04:18
Speaker
Yeah, I'm just crazy. It's a Florida-shaped side yard that juts out into the cul-de-sac, which is suboptimal. But if you don't need any privacy, then it's no big deal. That's true. You have nothing to hide. Then you can just you can grill out there, like I said, in the front. Grilling in the front yard is a bold move. And I think you can pull it off. Oh, yeah, totally can. Totally can. I'll just grill in the garage, right? We got a three-car garage. You just grill in the garage. That's super safe and not hazardous at all, right?
Air Quality Observations: NJ vs. CA
00:04:48
Speaker
No. Well, I mean, if air quality is a concern, you're going to want to sort of steer clear of that whole part of the country, I imagine, right? Here in New Jersey, it is still, you know, orange. Yeah, you breathing OK? Yeah, I guess. I don't know. I'll find out in 10 years when I pop on something.
00:05:04
Speaker
Anyway, that other voice is Jake Schumer, right? That's your name, right? I know you. That's my last name. And you're in Florida. I'm in Florida where our air quality is perfectly fine. I left from California. We had our share of like, why can I just stare at the sun right now? Why is it red and why is it super dark?
00:05:26
Speaker
Y'all have don't seem to have gotten the in California. We have like the Blade Runner 2049 smoke on occasion, which is crazy that would that New York had where is this everything's orange and smoke right in front of you, but we also have a lot of days of like
00:05:44
Speaker
It's in the atmosphere and it's making everything a little dark and it's making the sun really like, not really like faded and not intense. So it's just strange, but it's not like affecting us that much. It's not making me, making it hard to breathe or something. So we had a lot of those days, just like pretty, like once a week, a year or something like that.
Podcast Music Decisions
00:06:08
Speaker
By the way, did we kill the music? Is the music gone? Oh, we did. Did we get rid of it? I'm fine with it. We could kill it.
00:06:14
Speaker
OK, the music for you. Yeah, no more music. That's it. The A.I. has asserted its rights and they sent us a DMCA takedown. I hear it by revoking my license that I gave you to use my prompted A.I. music. I mean, I felt like for a few weeks now, it's been Andrew has just kind of been biding his time waiting to pop in that theme music when it would be like maximum inconvenience or maximum funny to just like throw somebody off. And so I'm fine to see those days end for now.
00:06:44
Speaker
Now, this is when I would do it, right? Right as you started to say that, it's when I would hit it. But I honestly... I was expecting it honestly. Because it's weird. The music is weird. I have not had feedback on the music, but I know some listeners in real life and they compliment us on the show and we're interesting and very clever. And Jake is a big hit and Jason is always...
00:07:03
Speaker
you know, has wonderful insights. No one has said anything about the music one way or the other. But I feel like that's not great, a great sign. Like, you know, you want something, you want some theme music that people comment on that it's, you know, it lets them know that the show's getting going. And I don't know if our Supreme Court barbecue ever really did that.
00:07:21
Speaker
I'll, you know, I'll go back into the mines. I'll go back into my creative space and try to figure out a good prompt for a music generation thing. If that thing still exists, hopefully it has like version six and it's all good now. Yeah. You know, maybe I'll just pull a Merlin man and I'll do our intro music. I've been known to play some guitar here and there. I like that. That's a very good idea. Maybe you could get like a Supreme Court barbecue drum track or something like that and I'll play over to the top of that.
00:07:50
Speaker
I think you have a little bit robot, a little bit robot, a little bit human.
00:07:53
Speaker
Yeah, I like that. But we'll write lyrics and I think you should sing them. I mean, I think we got to, you know, we got to lean into this now. I don't know about that. All right.
Trump's Legal Speculations
00:08:02
Speaker
Well, I guess we could quickly just mention that it seems that Trump is going to be indicted tomorrow. Probably just because according to him. Yeah, we have a date. This is like a day and date podcast. We mentioned the date. So we should note that just before recording, he sent out a missive saying that he's been informed he'll be indicted tomorrow.
00:08:21
Speaker
Okay. And his first, so his first appearance or whatever is going to be on, he's due to turn himself in on Tuesday. Yeah. And I have a, I have a friend who won't be named in Miami who is going to go, has made it clear that he will be there. It was a lawyer. And so I'll be,
00:08:44
Speaker
I'm gonna have some eyes and ears on the ground there and That maybe well, it'll be fun. I don't know this it'll be stupid Online is gonna be tolerable intolerable for the foreseeable future
00:09:00
Speaker
We're going to have the wave of we got something out of it. Yeah, we'll have that first wave of we got them. Right. There's a lot of people that are going to be very earnest and very excited. Then they'll be the backlash to that. And then they'll be like the counter wave to that. Right. Well, they're all happening simultaneously now. There's already the backlash is happening now. Also, we got them is happening now. Also, the the my backlash, which is, oh, my God.
00:09:26
Speaker
my poor online, my poor feed is going to be terrible for days of people talking about this and nothing else. It's interesting. We'll see how it goes. If it ends up being on Tuesday, isn't Tuesday? What would that be? The 13th? The 12th?
Reddit's API Controversy and User Impact
00:09:42
Speaker
13th?
00:09:42
Speaker
Something like that. Isn't that one of the two days that a bunch of subreddits are shutting down out of protest for the API changes? One of the least reasonable corners of the internet is going to be just completely shut down for that day. Not completely. A lot shut down that day out of protest for Reddit basically screwing
00:10:06
Speaker
Everybody who uses the API like moderators who run bots like they're getting screwed The main outcry that I've heard about is Christian selling who develops the Apollo app for reddit is getting like mega screwed out of this and so a bunch of subreddits are shutting down like going private for the day to show solidarity with I don't know people not solidarity like protests and
00:10:29
Speaker
because the moderators are losing their ability to auto-moderate and you're screwing like basically everybody's favorite non-Reddit Reddit client. And so, you know, it's nice to have that corner of the Internet maybe shut down for this insanity that's to come.
00:10:46
Speaker
I'm a big yes, that's that's true. But I'm a big defender of Reddit, like in general as a place. Yeah. Like, oh, me too. It has like a lot of like bad. It has corn. That's the thing. It's pretty siloed. So your feed, they have like they're trying to do a little more like algorithmic stuff. Yeah.
00:11:07
Speaker
But it's definitely siloed if you want it to be. Right. And there's like some good stuff in there. And famously, Google one of the hacks, if you want an answer to something, if you Google the question, Google the question plus Reddit. And that'll be a lot better of an answer than like the bounds of clickbait articles that want to tell you, you know,
00:11:28
Speaker
How do I screw in a, how do I screw in a screw? Well, the first screwdriver was invented in 1600. What's a screwdriver? What's a screw? I'll tell you how to screw in a screw. That kind of thing. Yeah. It's like the, the home improvement version of the recipe websites where it's like a 13 page dissertation. This was smuggled out of some, you know, country by a great, great grandparent or whatever. But also I was on a train ride out of New Delhi and
00:11:58
Speaker
And a man sold me this Subway sandwich recipe on that train. It was very, very strange. On the Reddit thing, it's not only the moderator thing. They sort of in the wake of Twitter charging for API access did the same thing. I quietly said the same thing. And I don't know if it was an official sort of argument for it. But what I heard a lot at the time was that people are saying, well, this is great because this is going to prevent AI from scraping, which is already
00:12:24
Speaker
Yeah. It's spurious because scrapers don't use APIs. They'll just use screen readers just like a browser does. But the idea was, well, they're going to charge for API access so that it's not profitable for something like GPT to just run through all of Reddit and ingest all of that and use that in the language models or whatever.
00:12:42
Speaker
And that seemed at the time like a reasonable explanation. But the sorts of numbers I'm seeing for the aforementioned Apollo app, was it $20 million a month or something they were going to need to... Yeah, if the number of calls that they do, yeah, it was something like that.
00:12:59
Speaker
I don't remember what the actual number was. In the double digit millions per month for sure. Maybe it was 10, but the number was an absurd number that was just, it's effectively saying you can't exist. It's not really even real. I definitely saw the 20 million number. I didn't see the interval at which it would be repeating, but 20 million, whether it's annually or monthly, it's a lot different, obviously. It's a magnitude of 12 different.
00:13:25
Speaker
I don't think... For a third party app, it's not happening. Yeah, it's the same.
00:13:31
Speaker
I think the developer went on record and the story has gotten a little bit more spicy this week because maybe even today Christian Selig the developer like kept the receipts and kept recordings of his interactions with the folks at Reddit when they were going through the sort of the ringer with all of this and it's gonna cost him it sounds like about a quarter of a million dollars even just like
00:13:57
Speaker
OK, I'm stopping business. It's going to cost him potentially a quarter of a million dollars. And so I think that's probably him giving back prorated annual subscriptions to his app. And so that tells me that he's on a revenue schedule that is substantially less than 20 million a year, which like is not surprising in the least. But yeah, I mean, they've really just gone full Elon apparently with the
00:14:25
Speaker
Thought that full full Elon at Twitter with a thought that well Elon did it and Twitter survived so far, right? So we can do it And boy, they've just kissed away like as much as Twitter is a place where people will get pissed about the platform I feel like reddit is that but more so oh yeah, and like there's
00:14:47
Speaker
There's, they're having their mastodon moment. I don't know what the Reddit alternative is that people are going to go to. Please God, don't let it be for 10. Uh, but okay. Sure. Maybe. I honestly, I don't even know what dig is. Is that like a early, early teens deep cut from like when I was in law school or something?
00:15:07
Speaker
Yeah, no from before law school from the in the odds right like maybe from the odds five to I think it died in like oh five Yeah, so it's a fun story about what happened today Which is at least this is my this is the how my head cannon for what happened, right? They were you know going along basically are read it like but with one a
00:15:31
Speaker
with more or less one big subreddit. Like if it read it was one big subreddit. Yeah, there was no subreddit. And it was founded by Kevin Rose, who was a guy from, you know, so much tech TV, tech TV and ZD TV era. Like I don't know if you guys ever had that on your TVs, tech TV or ZD TV.
00:15:47
Speaker
Anyway, there's a show on there called the screen savers. He was a minor guy on there. He starts dig. Go ahead. Sorry. Okay. Okay. So he starts dig. It's going great. Then a hexadecimal code for like pirating HD DVDs or something like that. Yeah. It was like some kind of cheat
00:16:06
Speaker
Like, some kind of code that was hard embedded to DVDs that made you able to pirate anything just got onto the internet. And somebody posted about it on Dig, and Dig got legal threats from the recording industry and the movie picture, whoever it is. Really? They're usually so reasonable, the movie industry and the recording industry.
00:16:28
Speaker
So Digg took it down and started taking down posts about news reporting this thing being released because they all had the code in it and releasing the code was damaging. And there was like a humongous user revolt of everybody that's constantly posting. It basically ruined the website because all the users would only post this code as their ways to put the code in. And that was kind of like the start of the downfall of Digg as far as I could tell.
00:16:58
Speaker
So Reddit predates Digg, but Digg was better in my opinion. It was a better service. So that whole thing happens. And in addition, Digg announces that their answer to all that is they're going to release version four, which is going to be a much better like, Hey guys, I've heard your concerns. Don't worry. This is a much better version of the site. We've had some difficulties where sort of trying to make those moderation decisions seem sort of like technical issues or something. And so they release version four and it's abysmal.
00:17:25
Speaker
Dig is like a cautionary tale of way more than MySpace or Friendster or any of those other services that have gone by the wayside, just how rapidly it went from something to nothing.
Reddit's Survival Amid User Backlash
00:17:37
Speaker
Reddit calls itself the front page of the internet. There was a good two or three years where Dig had that claim. And the owner, Kevin Rose, was always on the cover of Fortune. He's like the next Zuckerberg, all of that. And then it went to valueless. And I think
00:17:52
Speaker
It still exists for a time. They tried to make it a Google Reader competitor or after Google Reader died as an RSS reader. We could do that too, but it has never come back from that. And Digg has often trotted out as a cautionary tale of basically what Reddit is doing now.
00:18:07
Speaker
you think you're so big and Twitter too, you think you're so big, you have such a huge audience, you can't possibly just go away overnight, but you really can. I mean, you won't literally not have any users overnight, but you can make a decision that that's it. The trust is broken and the core people leave and you're done. And so I would argue it's quite possible Reddit is about to have that happen itself. What a shame. Yeah, that's a danger. Reddit is the reason the three of us know each other, isn't it?
00:18:36
Speaker
Like, didn't we all get connected to this Slack group? That's how I found out about the subreddit. I guess, yeah, it must have been. Yeah, that's how I found the Slack. And then, yeah. The thing about Reddit is it's owned by Condi Nast. So like the idea that this, anything else, I mean, this is not that surprising, right? This is where it was headed at some point, not literally these sets of decisions, but something along these lines. It's not a small group of developers anymore. It's, you know,
00:19:04
Speaker
This is layer number six or whatever of this conversation we started about the Trump indictment. But going back to layer four, about charging for API and it being like Elon. Elon charging for API access and also charging for verification. I feel like a lot of companies, those two things have been disasters at Twitter.
00:19:29
Speaker
because it wasn't very well thought out. But a lot of companies heard that and were like, okay, yeah, now we get to do it. It's just like layoffs. It's like, okay, now it's not so bad if we do it. And I think a couple other companies turned off API access or started charging for API access. Instagram started their paid
00:19:47
Speaker
verification program. Yeah. No kidding. So it's like some of the stuff, it's like it done well that Elon did and was kind of a disaster done well, like made sense or at least business sense when it came to turning off APIs. I know
00:20:02
Speaker
Reddit doesn't want a competitor for the app where they're showing ads. So there's like a free ad free version of itself out there that's very popular. So I totally get the business case for it. Yeah. Because I think Reddit is fun is the popular Android app that also is going to be shut down because similarly it has that number of users that it can't possibly sustain itself. And yeah, I think it's the ads. I think it's also that Reddit is trying to go the algorithm direction and these apps don't
00:20:31
Speaker
make use of the algorithm. The subreddits you subscribe to is the content you see. You're not being forced anything. And so I think the ad and the ad idea and the algorithm go hand in hand. You kind of need to have the algorithm to be forcing people to see things that they don't expect to see. Otherwise ads just become like banner ads used to be where you just scroll past them. Your eyes don't even see them. And so I think it's kind of all of a piece.
00:20:58
Speaker
And yeah, I mean, it's a shame Reddit really, I think, has been a great resource, but...
00:21:03
Speaker
What are you going to do? I think they survive this. I think they go back on it. Yeah. No, I think they I think they survive this. I don't think the entire because I think the majority of Reddit users either use like maybe I'm going to guess 80 percent of Reddit users. There might be numbers out there. I don't care enough to look it up. Don't worry. I'm going to guess 80 percent of Reddit users use browsers or the official app. Yeah, I think you're probably right.
00:21:33
Speaker
So you lose 20% of the user base, that is terrible. But it's not like a full on revolt like we were seeing in Dig where it's just like everybody hated it. This all affects 20% and then 20% will hate it.
00:21:51
Speaker
Yeah, and the scale is just totally different, right? So I said Digg was the front page of the internet for that era. Again, I don't know the numbers for this, but I guarantee whatever they were getting per day, Reddit has, I would bet, conservatively, 100 times more. And so just the sheer scale is just not the same now. Everyone's online now. Back then, we forget that there were still people who weren't.
Nostalgia for Old Internet Platforms
00:22:11
Speaker
And so yeah, I think Reddit can sort of have a hole in its balloon and lose air for a long time before it becomes anything like
00:22:19
Speaker
or even like slash dot. I don't know if you guys remember it. I don't mean to move on to another website, but that used to be a website that was the first like user submitted content site and dig and Reddit ate their lunch. But anyway, let's just sit. Wait, wait, wait. We did. We should just have a have a series where we just name old websites. Let's just talk about stumble upon stumble upon the bombs. We're talking about. Yeah, he bombs world. Talk about all dino black sheep. Oh, no, my. There I fixed it.
00:22:48
Speaker
Jake, you can go on there. I fixed it. And I think you can probably still have a pretty good time there. Like it was a series of like, Oh gosh, yeah, we can't do this. Maybe some other bonus episode or something. I was joking. I was joking joke derailing. Let's not really derail it. I'll allow us to move on to our actual topic.
AI Missteps in Legal Practice
00:23:09
Speaker
Yeah.
00:23:09
Speaker
So here's a great website you can go to that will do all of your legal work for you is my understanding. I have not read any of our news or anything, but my understanding is if you go to chat GPT, I don't know if you guys have heard about this. If I open AI and you ask it to write you a brief, it's done. It just does it.
00:23:24
Speaker
And it'll cite to cases. And if you ask it for those cases, it'll just provide them. If you are paying for Westlaw or Lexus or Fastcase or anything like that, you're a sucker. This is the way to go. Okay. Now, we're gonna take a moment here to note that that was all tongue in cheek because none of that stuff is true. Right. And none of this is legal advice.
00:23:43
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. None of it is legal advice for you. And if you take it as legal advice for you, you're making bad choices, which we all three disavow. But there is a lawyer who did do this. And this fella is in a mighty big heap of trouble. Who's gonna be our summarizer here? Is it Andy? I cared enough.
00:24:08
Speaker
to go into like read the, what's it? The law, legal listener, court listener. Oh, you win. And read the actual documents back when this was first breaking. Okay. Yeah, that's you. Tell us about it. I was going deep. So there's actually two people that are in hot, hot water. So this is a federal Southern district of New York case, plaintiff, personal injuries. Somebody fell on a plane. Somebody has some kind of injury on a plane. Right. Like a hit with a drink.
00:24:39
Speaker
So Avianca Airlines, I think is the name of the airline, which is like a bankrupt Ecuadorian.
00:24:46
Speaker
Airline or something. Nice. Bankrupt South American Airline of some kind. Sure. They sue under, you know, because they're personal injury attorneys. The Avianca has aviation attorneys on and and they are in a fight because
00:25:05
Speaker
Avianca declared bankruptcy. There's a stay. There's a question under, I guess there's an international law, the Montreal Convention, about how to deal with injuries on airplanes, on international flights. What happened in Montreal? Yeah. That's never take a plane to Montreal ever. It sounds like they had a convention. Yeah.
00:25:33
Speaker
So that's the case. The defense attorneys for the airlines moved to dismiss because of some issue with the Montreal Convention. Montreal Convention, as you might imagine, it's an international case. It's going to be hadone. All the case law is going to be federal.
00:25:48
Speaker
the plaintiffs uh respond to this motion to dismiss and have like site like six cases six cases federal cases for the most part which are completely on point in their favor uh just like dream cases uh that are cited saying exactly what they want in their response
00:26:10
Speaker
Right. So the plaintiff's lawyers file a brief in opposition to the motion to dismiss. And then with it, they file these actual copies as PDF attachments, exhibits to the brief in opposition. No, not yet. They didn't do that yet. The court has to ask for that. No. First, they just cited it.
00:26:30
Speaker
And then the defense counsel, their response says, we can't find these cases so we don't, we like, here's our case law saying our side, we can't find any of the cases. And we can't find any of the cases that that plaintiff cited.
00:26:50
Speaker
That prompts an order from the court to say, okay, plaintiff's attorney. Uh, I think his name is like Luca something LaDuca. I believe. Yeah. I'm sorry. I think it's a little Peter LaDuca. Yeah. LaDuca plaintiff attorney LaDuca, uh, within two weeks or three weeks or something. Um,
00:27:13
Speaker
attach file a file copies of these cases, along with an affidavit or something like that. And the LaDuca, first of all, he asked for an extension because he's on vacation. So that's one thing. He gets it. And then three weeks later, he files copies, the copies that you were talking about, along with an affidavit saying, sorry, these aren't full of copies. These are all that were on the online database. And he doesn't say what the database are.
00:27:42
Speaker
is. Yeah. And these cases are absolute nonsense. Like the way that they're written don't make any sense. They say what he wants them to say, but they are like, uh,
00:27:58
Speaker
They have sentences that don't make any sense. They have structures that don't make any sense. They don't look like court cases in any way, shape, or form. They look like court cases if you've never read a court case before, basically. They look like Laura Mipson Doeller style of a court case, right? It has the appearance if you just sort of glanced at it. Oh, this looks like some sort of
00:28:21
Speaker
It's like if somebody took an aviation law 1L class and they just stuck in sentences that they remembered from their class without considering the logical consistency. So that was them submitting copies of cases.
00:28:42
Speaker
Next, the defense attorney files a letter saying, we're not sure what to do about this, but these all appear fake.
00:28:55
Speaker
And love it so far. We can't find copies. We don't know what's going on. Court, please. We don't know what to do about this. You don't want to start pointing fingers yet, right? I mean, that's the concern. You don't want to say you're the fool. Like, I just can't find these. Is it me? I mean, you must be like you're being gaslit. Totally reasonable thing for the defense attorneys to file. Yeah. Yes. Yes. So at that point, the court issues its first like
00:29:22
Speaker
actually expresses its thoughts for the first time and it says, okay, we are in an unprecedented circumstance. This attorney keeps submitting fake cases.
00:29:35
Speaker
It's time for you guys, you attorneys, you have like X amount of days to submit a reason why you shouldn't be sanctioned, why the case shouldn't be dismissed, why you shouldn't be punished. I forget exactly what he was threatening him with for submitting falsified cases. And the judge had actually called
00:29:56
Speaker
to at least one of the courtrooms where these fake cases supposedly came from to confirm that it didn't exist and confirms with them that none of the cases that the case didn't exist. And that's when we find out, this is when we start getting to the mutant matter. Laduca comes in and says, okay, here's my explanation. My explanation is I've never actually been the attorney in this case. It's actually been this other guy, Schultz,
00:30:24
Speaker
Schwartz. Schwartz. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. It was actually Schwartz. I just signed everything he put in front of me more or less. I didn't do any of the research. Here's Schwartz's affidavit. Schwartz, by the way, is not authorized to practice law in the Southern District of New York. Fantastic. Good start. Mr. LaNuca was just acting like a front man for this.
00:30:48
Speaker
Um, and I feel like we should, we should pause at the end of this because there was events today. Yeah. I don't know if y'all do it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and Schwartz's affidavit was, sorry, judge, I,
00:31:06
Speaker
I asked chat gbt for cases and it said these were the cases and then it wrote these cases and I didn't realize that it made stuff up and then uh and the um
00:31:19
Speaker
And he included screenshots of his chat GPT transcripts. So where's chat GPT says, yes, these are really real cases. And Schwartz asks, wait, are you sure? And, and chat GPT says, yes, these are absolutely real cases, not fake cases. Um, so for the last, we're a little late on this part because we, we took a week off, but, um,
00:31:46
Speaker
At that point, the judge said, okay, you now have two weeks to show up in person to explain why you shouldn't be sanctioned for all of this, for all of this. At this point, we should just remark that
00:32:03
Speaker
Just the very fact that LaDuca was acting as a face for an unadmitted attorney is itself like sanctionable conduct. World of hurt. Yeah, you're in big trouble. It's not like there's a mechanism where something like this happens kind of ordinarily where like I'm not licensed in Florida. I have a case in Florida. Jake sponsors me to be admitted for this one particular purpose, ProHawkViche. And like that's a thing that happens all the time. And so there's a mechanism to do this.
00:32:33
Speaker
As I understand it, Jake, you can correct me if I'm wrong. That mechanism was just not honored even slightly. No, not at all. In fact, incredibly concealed that LaDuca wasn't actually doing anything.
00:32:48
Speaker
and I'm jumping the gun a little bit, but the process of getting admitted in federal court when you are already admitted in the state where the federal court is, it's usually basically nothing. It's like pay a fee, maybe you do a CLE or something. I honestly didn't have to do any CLE to get into any of the districts in Florida.
00:33:09
Speaker
I got admitted to all three of them by their application and like three letters of recommendation or three, not even letters of recommendation, three references, something like that. And it wasn't like specific references. It was like people admitted to federal court. So, yeah, that alone is getting them in trouble, let alone submitting the fake cases.
00:33:34
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think as with a lot of these AI stories, that's the real story there. I mean, that part is, he could have pulled fake cases from a random website or he could have just made them up some other way. It's not really like, it's been trotted out as sort of like an AI gone wrong type story, but it's not really, I mean, it's what he used, but it's no more AI gone wrong than it is Microsoft Word gone wrong or computers gone wrong or whatever.
00:34:02
Speaker
It's its own thing here. I mean, it's that. It's that he didn't go through the... He was a front for this other... Unadmitted. Is he an attorney anywhere? Yeah, he's an attorney in New York. That's not in the federal district. So, today there was a hearing to decide what's going to happen to these people. And so, I had a couple of quotes I just wanted to pull quickly from the New York Times article because I thought it was great.
00:34:22
Speaker
For nearly two hours Thursday, Mr. Schwartz was grilled by a judge in a hearing ordered after the disclosure that the lawyer had created a legal brief for a case in the federal district court that was filled with fake judicial opinions and legal citations, all generated by chat GPT. At times during the hearing, Mr. Schwartz squeezed his eyes shut and rubbed his forehead with his left hand. He stammered and his voice dropped. He repeatedly tried to explain why he did not conduct further research into the cases that chat GPT had provided to him.
00:34:47
Speaker
God, I wish I did that. God, I wish I did that and I didn't do it. Mr. Schwartz said, adding that he felt embarrassed, humiliated and deeply remorseful. I did not comprehend the chat GPT could fabricate cases. And reading this and sort of reading the way he's been presenting it, they've all been presenting it. I wonder almost if it's not in their best interest to try to make it an AI gone wrong story. That's better than, that's like, you know, technology burned me is way better than, no, I just didn't follow any of the proper procedures for the part that is not technical at all.
00:35:16
Speaker
Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that's that's true. Like it is kind of I kind of tried to do that. They were like, look, this was an honest mistake caused by right. I gone wrong. And
00:35:31
Speaker
There was so much in this hearing that was like embarrassing even if they were the most innocent, even if they had done things right and like eventually and caught it once the defense attorneys actually noticed it. I was just like, okay, I guess we screwed up if this had been that hearing.
00:35:53
Speaker
There are a few things that were like really embarrassing. For example, they don't have that firm doesn't have a legal research service for federal cases and is practicing in federal court, which is nuts for a law firm. They don't have they use fast case for their you know, for their state level stuff.
00:36:13
Speaker
which apparently doesn't have federal or they said there was like a billing error. So they didn't have federal anymore through fast case. I think they were like, well, what do we do? He also couldn't name fast case, right? He called it like fast track or something the first time. I mean, maybe that's not a great sign too, right? If you can't even name the database properly and the judge corrected was like, you're talking about fast case.
00:36:33
Speaker
Fast case which is provided basically if not for free at very low cost by virtually every single state bar association like this is an easy and inexpensive or free tool for you to get setting aside the other tools that exist like Google Scholar or like just a Google circle and like
00:36:52
Speaker
You can run a Google search and if you put in whatever citation that chat GPT generated for you, you will find nothing and that should be concerning to you. Yes. Or you'll find you just run the Google for the site. Those like numbers, their citation numbers went to different cases. And so you can see that the citation number you were given was wrong. But instead they just took chat GPT
00:37:22
Speaker
And he just took it and even after being told like three separate times that it was fake, just like didn't know what to do with that and just kept going back to the well. It's great. I mean, you wonder how long, like what they've been up to. This can't be this guy's first rodeo, certainly for this whole little onesie twosie thing with the other attorney. Like he must do this for some. This is not your first time doing this, right? You're not caught the first time.
00:37:50
Speaker
I'm 100% certain that everybody who has a case on the other side of the V with this firm is going through and like, hey, law clerk, summer clerk, did you go through and shepherdize everything that was in this group? Shepherdize all these citations. Did we settle on that? I can't believe we did. Let's pull some cases from federal district courts in random places and use them against them so that they don't know how to get copies of it.
00:38:20
Speaker
Yeah, I can just imagine. For people who are listening who are not lawyers, like there's a process that everybody is taught in every single law school in the nation. And it's usually referred to by its old timey name as shepherdizing, which is like now a Lexus Nexus brand product that they use. But if there's a process that you go through before you file basically anything where you go through and you verify that the citations that you're using are correct and there's still good law. So like
00:38:49
Speaker
There are these services, and the original one was called Shepherds, or maybe it wasn't the original, but it's like a really well-known one. And you go, and you look up this case, and it gives you like, red, this has big negative treatment. Don't use this case. A yellow, like you should think really carefully about using this case. Or nothing, it's clean. Feel free to use this case. This is like standard things that you're taught in your first year of law school. And it's such a big, big whiff on that.
00:39:18
Speaker
And to not do that is malpractice. To not shepherdize is probably malpractice, but to use cases that are made up out of whole cloth. It says, I don't imagine any scenario under which this guy maintains a clean law license. The question in my mind is, does he get suspended for a year or three years, or is he just entirely disbarred forever?
00:39:47
Speaker
Yeah, whether or not I can imagine there are plenty of cases where I don't jeopardize because I'm using case law that I've used forever. I would know if a new case came out on it, that kind of thing. But if I'm researching a new issue like he was, like an issue that I'm not familiar with, the Montreal conviction, then you're doing actual, that's when you're doing actual research.
00:40:08
Speaker
And if you're doing actual research, like shepardizing, key site, I think they're called site haters is the actual name of what it is. That's part of the research process of any competent attorney. And we have an ethical obligation that's never real, not really police, really, of being competent. Until the last few weeks. Right. Until now. Yeah. Because I mean, yeah.
00:40:37
Speaker
So what Jake and Jason just really quickly for non lawyers are explaining is when I talk about how it's treatment, a case is treatment, is that if a case decision is rendered on some matter and let's say it was rendered in 1975 and in 1985 another judge decides that that is not the way we want to go on these same facts. We would not go the same way again.
00:41:00
Speaker
they may issue another opinion that completely contradicts and overrules that explicitly perhaps, but it doesn't, I suppose, I guess it doesn't have to technically overrule it entirely in its text, right? So unless you knew, unless you looked at those citations, you might, you might never actually see, like it's not, it's not incumbent upon the judge or really their clerk to write in the decision that we are overturning this previous case, right?
00:41:22
Speaker
And in fact, they can't because it's, we forget, right? We, we forget these cases are actually like, or what? Right. Okay. I realized what you were saying. They don't say we're overturning all the cases because there's a lot of time there's like dozens, hundreds of cases that were held under the previous rule. Yeah. This case conflicts with the old case and it's not apparent just from reading it. So if you just printed that new case out and read it, you wouldn't know or, or the old case, right? For sure.
00:41:49
Speaker
You wouldn't know that this was undoing some previous thing. So these citations are to let you know how it's been treated in the past. Here's a case that overrules or overrules in part, or et cetera. It's called different things with different services. Yeah. And in every one of those services, when you look at when you're searching for these cases, when you're pulling these cases up, you get the name of the case, where the case is held, the citation information for it, like 138 F sub second, whatever.
00:42:17
Speaker
and then right there right below it like in the header like the banner of this decision you get this either there's nothing there good sign or there's something there in yellow okay be careful or there's red like don't use this yeah all your malpractice carrier like
00:42:38
Speaker
Yeah, one thing that he, we forget that the cases, we forget, I don't forget, it's just not something you think about. These cases all exist printed in a form such as the federal reporter, which is what the F dot 2D and F dot 3D mean. It's the second and third edition of the federal reporter.
00:42:59
Speaker
So, of course, there's never going to be like this was later overturned in that physical book because, oh, yeah, you know, that's true. It was printed. It was a print. I'm going in there. It exists. Right. But one of the moments in today's for hearing that was like.
00:43:16
Speaker
you know, lying to the court. By the way, they also admitted that when LaDuca said that he was going on vacation, he wasn't. It was Schwartz that was going on vacation. So when he signed on the after, when they submitted the request for an extension, he lied a little bit. It is really like a complete puppet show, right? Like everything is what the other guy is doing. If he says he has to go to the bathroom, the other guy has to go to the bathroom.
00:43:42
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. But Schwartz didn't know what F.3D meant, which, you know, if you're not a lawyer, you, I'm sorry, like that's, you shouldn't know what F.3D means. But when that came out, I was like, Oh my God, the Twitter lawyers are going to be freaked out. They're going to be so annoyed. I mean, it's, it's kind of like,
00:44:03
Speaker
it really made me feel bad for the guy. I switched over to pity pretty quickly, even before this hearing really, because it's like, oh man, this guy's story is going to be some schadenfreude in there because lawyers love a story where a lawyer that has been just lying constantly
00:44:25
Speaker
just slips up and is caught and cannot wiggle out of it. We love a story like that, even like in the normal time. And, but in this case, it also, you add on chat GPT. Uh, and this is, this has so much attention that it otherwise wouldn't.
00:44:42
Speaker
Yeah, this poor guy is getting absolutely killed. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve getting getting killed. Right. Maybe not like, you know, figuratively New York Times article level killed. I don't know what other lawyer has gotten an article like that.
00:45:00
Speaker
Well, that's what I was gonna say. Yeah, I mean, his professional ramifications would have been the same problem. Well, maybe not. Maybe he now has to have something even more than he would have. Like, maybe you might've gotten lucky. He might've gotten lucky if it had less attention. But now, all eyes are on the whole thing. And even if he's not disbarred, where is he gonna go work?
00:45:20
Speaker
I mean, talk about controlling the first page of Google for your name. You're done, buddy. You know what I mean? You're like Lee Harvey Oswald looking for a job. There's only one thing turning up when you search your name now and it's this.
00:45:33
Speaker
Yeah, he might be saved by the chat GPT part of it because it just makes him look like an out of touch attorney that used a tool he didn't understand. Yeah, that's true. But really the actual problem here was all the flagrant professionalism violations and lying to the court and practicing in a district that you didn't have authorized to do.
00:45:54
Speaker
Yeah, that's the stuff that's going to get him killed by the bar, but it's not the stuff that's going to generate the news articles so much. Yeah, and those are going to be like cheap, easy, low-hanging fruit type articles, like the ones that, you know,
00:46:11
Speaker
invoke the lady getting coffee spilled in her lap at McDonald's like, oh, this sounds like a really silly thing. And oh, man, I can't believe this guy is getting such a hard time because he used chat chat GPT, when in reality, the details of the story are a much different picture. And so he may get professionally saved a little bit. No, not in terms of keeping his license, but in terms of like reputation among other people, other lawyers.
00:46:39
Speaker
He may be redeemed a little bit by people just not being fully informed about all of the details of it, but this guy is deservedly getting metaphorically pummeled on this.
00:46:57
Speaker
had it just been out of touch, using chat GPT, not realizing all of the risks that are inherent to it because he doesn't listen to Esquiring Minds, then I could have more sympathy for him because I worked with those Luddites. So I know how that situation arises. But boy, Hattie, this is just, it's bad. It's real bad.
00:47:27
Speaker
It's super bad. It's schadenfreude. It's pity. It's sad. It's bad for the profession. It's hilarious. It's everything wrapped up in one.
00:47:42
Speaker
So speaking of bad lawyers and stuff, we're running a little late on here. I don't want to keep you guys too late. Do you guys want to power through our Binance and Coinbase discussion and then get to the other bad lawyers or just go right to the other bad lawyers? No, I want to just briefly touch on Coinbase and Binance because
00:48:01
Speaker
Six episodes ago or something. We were talking about what like what would kill crypto in America, right? And it was a coinbase going down. Yeah Guess what like not? I was like, I don't know much about Binance. I can't tell if it's legit or not I said I think I said that on the on the podcast and it sounds right. Yeah friend of the pod Grant was like no Binance is totally sketchy and
00:48:27
Speaker
So now, as of I think it was this week, the SEC is suing both coin
Crypto Industry Legal Challenges
00:48:34
Speaker
base and Binance, but in different capacity on very different basis where they're basically suing Binance for the whole deal saying that Binance is in like, and totally completely operating illegally in America. It's FTN, right?
00:48:49
Speaker
Down to the misappropriation of client funds and everything. Yeah, misappropriation of funds, transferring client funds to another corporation that the founder is benefiting from. And then Coinbase, they're basically saying that they're staking, specifically they're staking issues. Some coins are securities for one part, but also they're sticking as a service.
00:49:15
Speaker
program is a security and registered and properly marketed blah, blah, blah security. Yeah. Um, if, if this actually kills Coinbase though, that is, I think that I'm not a crypto expert in America. Yeah. I don't see where you're going from that. I should, I should put my stuff in a cold wallet.
00:49:36
Speaker
Are they the only still extant publicly traded? I think they are, right? Publicly traded. Yeah. Whatever that is. Marketplace. Yeah. They were the only ones and they still are. I don't think FTX was FTX publicly traded. I thought it might have been, but it doesn't make sense now. Yeah. Okay. You're right. I don't think they were. I don't know if Coinbase is
00:49:59
Speaker
I mean, they're not getting the worst of this. It seems like Binance is in big trouble. I'll put this in the show notes. The SEC complaint that has the quote from the finance CCO, which is what is that? Chief Coin Officer or something? I don't know what a CCO is to be honest with you. Admitted to another Binance Compliance Officer in December 2018, we are operating as an effing unlicensed securities exchange in the USA, bro. Just send that in an email.
00:50:28
Speaker
So now they're saying they're not, obviously, but I thought that I didn't think that was an admission. I thought that was like a training that was like explaining there. Like he wasn't admitting it. It was like, what are we doing here? It's like a mission statement. It was bright. It's bright. It's like it's bragging. It's like the big short where it's the first 10 seconds of good fellas or whatever, where it's like where he's explaining the whole scheme. Right. It's a cool music place.
00:50:55
Speaker
Yeah, because they're very proud of what they're doing. It's not looking good for them, I don't think. No, I don't think so. I mean, the Coinbase thing, it was only down 15% on the initial announcement, which is surprising to me, the stock from Coinbase. I know flipping back and forth, but Coinbase... The other thing I want to say about Binance really quickly is a hallmark, it seems, of these shady crypto platforms is
00:51:23
Speaker
There's like 13 different Binance, not just entities, but actual trading platforms. There's apparently Binance.us, then there's .com, and then there's a .nz. And these aren't all... I mean, these are all obviously top-level domains that are different as well. But they're also completely different services or
00:51:39
Speaker
They were supposed to be. And he's now the the Zao, the CEO of our chief coin officer, whatever, of Binance is claiming that it only really is putting at risk. One of them and all the others are going to be fine. It seems to me like a carbon copy of FTX. And you're going to see the same thing happen and not good for him, though. Not not American, though, right? They're they're based in another country. I forget. Yeah, I don't remember where exactly. What is it? New Zealand?
00:52:09
Speaker
Let's see, we'll look this up right now. Where is... Changpeng Zhao founded in July of 2017. Oh, it's Chinese. Is it from China? Yep. Apparently.
00:52:21
Speaker
But if they can truly pawn off that quote of we're operating as an effing unlicensed securities exchange in the USA, bro, like if they can pawn that off, that's fine. But the SEC felt comfortable enough to put that in their complaint as they're initiating the lawsuit and like. Right.
00:52:41
Speaker
There are times when private lawyers will put things in a complaint that they believe to be true, but they don't have solid evidence about because we're notice pleading and maybe you pleaded on information and belief. Maybe you pleaded on something like that. But this is a government's team of lawyers from the SEC. And it's not like you're not dealing with the paper boy here. Right.
00:53:06
Speaker
This is government lawyers saying, we have this.
00:53:14
Speaker
I would imagine that they've got it cold if they are putting it in this pleading. This is not the sort of thing where somebody is going to have chat GPT generate this complaint and have fake quotes made up for it. These are government lawyers for the SEC knowing that they're going into a high profile case that is going to get
00:53:38
Speaker
crazy, high attention. They've got this. I think it was in writing like they had they had the email. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because it was a specific spelling to. Yeah, it's F K A and G for the effing because he didn't want to be, you know, offensive in email that gets you to implement lawyer. You could tell us that that would be trouble for him. Probably right. He wouldn't want to.
00:53:59
Speaker
Also, the inclusion of the bro at the end, not only does it make it seem like it makes it seem so much more plausible that this was the actual sentence that was uttered, because this is just the
00:54:16
Speaker
air that the crypto guys give off. I mean, there's a reason they're called crypto bros because they're just kind of like this frat boyish culture. Like imagine the nerdiest frats that you can find. But there's like that frat boy culture where to signify your participation in the group and the culture of that group, you change your Twitter avatar to have laser beam eyes like Tom Brady and Rob Gronkowski.
00:54:45
Speaker
It's so consistent with every vibe they give off that like, I totally believe this is genuine and they've got it cold.
00:54:54
Speaker
It's consistent and it's beautiful. It's like poetry. It reminds me of the apocryphal Hemingway poem that's like baby shoes never for sale, never worn, because it is the minimum number of words you would need to get this concept across, right? So he says we are operating, right? He uses the word operating, right? We're operating as an effing unlicensed securities exchange. You need to say that, right? And then he comes in at the end with in the USA.
00:55:19
Speaker
bro, right? So we make sure he makes it completely clear that he is saying we're doing, where are these doing this, what they're doing. It's, it's any, take anything out. And the SCC has a little bit less of a case, right? Every part of that is needed except for maybe the effing and you need the bro too, because you're both, that's an acknowledgement that it's illegal. Right. And it is bragging and douchey. So you also make them look terrible. So it's like,
00:55:45
Speaker
Man, it's not a smoking gun. It is an on fire smoldering ashes of a gun. It's the platonic ideal of an email that incorporates somebody, right? It's perfect. Yeah.
00:56:04
Speaker
There are two different ways you can read this too. You could read it as a word of warning like, hey, we should stop doing this. And absolutely nobody is reading it that way because nobody should read it that way. This is full bravado and nothing else.
00:56:20
Speaker
Yes. So reading quickly from the street, the SEC alleges that Binance mixed the funds of its customers with its own and secretly sent them to an entity separate from the company controlled by its founder, Changpeng Zhao. The entity in question, which is called Merritt Peak Limited, allegedly received more than $20 billion, including customer funds. So this is also operating at the same sort of scale that FTX was. So we are dealing in billions of dollars. I'm speaking from my own lack of knowledge. I didn't really know
00:56:48
Speaker
how big Binance was, but apparently they're big enough to send $20 billion in customer funds to some other entity. China isn't like a big fan. I mean, the Chinese government I think is like not big into crypto. In fact, anti-crypto. It was banned for a long time. I wonder if this guy gets arrested in China.
00:57:09
Speaker
Is he based out of China? I mean, is he actually in China? I don't know. I don't know. That's a great question. I don't know where he's safe. No, I don't know where he might be safe here. Yeah.
00:57:19
Speaker
Uh, like what, uh, what's his name? The SB is S B F. Yeah. Sam was in the Bahamas. Yeah. Uh, when FTX went down and he got extradited, is he in prison? He's, well, I don't know where he's at. Is he in jail or is he in like house arrest or? I don't know. I feel like the super wealthy are always in jail for like two seconds and then quietly sent home.
00:57:43
Speaker
Yeah, no, he got bail. Somebody from Stanford bailed him out. That's right. Like two professors. Oh, his parents are Stanford professors, right? Aren't they Stanford law professors? Yeah. And then like some Stanford friends bailed him out that were not his parents. Anyway, law professors are a shifty bunch.
00:58:02
Speaker
Um, uh, just really, really quickly, just because I, I would, I would be remiss if I didn't point this out because we talked about it at the time.
Law Firm Scandals
00:58:08
Speaker
A couple of weeks ago, we talked about Louis Brizwa and like 140 attorneys left. And, uh, our last story was about bad lawyers and turns out those two partners that left and founded that little spinoff. I don't, uh, it's like Raymond and something or other, whatever. It's not a Raymond. Yeah. Baba, Baba, Baba, Baba, Raymond. Um,
00:58:29
Speaker
It turns out they were terrible people. And you'd be shocked to find that out. And they had a trove, Louis Briswold had apparently a trove of emails from them with racist and sexist and misogynistic and anti-Semitic, everything you could possibly imagine. Some of the worst things I've read, I don't know if you guys actually read any of the, like the word for word emails, the actual
00:58:50
Speaker
I got a few money clips. I've never seen that in writing. I can't believe it's astounding to me that these people are emailing back and forth. With their signature block, you know, like partner, Louis Briswa from atlouisbriswa.com. Just sending things of just like every racial expletive you have ever heard just tossed around like no, there's no chance, you know, this email would ever wind up anywhere.
00:59:17
Speaker
comical level. Like if you needed to get fired from a firm, I feel like this is what you would pull out. You would fire off a couple of these emails to try to get yourself. So anyway, um, they, they left and it turns out they're really bad. And so now that firm has to change its name. Yeah. It's changing its name. Uh, the fact that Louis Brizwa
00:59:38
Speaker
like put these out because they sent these emails on Lewis Brisbane computers are is like so funny because that just means Lewis Brisbane knew it. Well, they had a statement they had on the top of their their their their firm. Yeah, they had a statement where they were careful to say that they discovered that after they left.
00:59:58
Speaker
After they left and going through emails, they discovered that turns out, you know, those two guys were in the pointed hoods where we're not great fellas. I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure nobody knew what kind of guys they were. No, it wasn't obvious in the culture or anything like that. Certainly not.
01:00:15
Speaker
It sounds like they were trying to performatively be as edgy as possible, but I'm sure it was not great at the firm to have them at the top. But yeah, one of the messiest law firm divorces I've heard of, definitely the messiest that I've ever heard of.
01:00:41
Speaker
What number, what percentage do you think of those 140 attorneys are now attempting to go back to Louis Brisbois? Yeah, that's a great question. Pretty decent number, right? I would say more than 100. Yeah, right. I mean, like, I don't want to go back. I'd be like, look, this was a mistake. Congratulations, you destroyed our firm. Can we come back? Yeah. And then they're like, yeah, you come back at a 20% pay cut.
01:01:07
Speaker
I think there's a reasonable probability that at least at the partner-ish level, these people knew who they were going with. It's hard to imagine that not being the case. More for the associates. I was thinking low-level people that just kind of went because the practice group went. All right, off we go.
01:01:29
Speaker
Yeah. And, you know, there there are plenty of people in those positions who feel like golden handcuffed to their practice groups because they latch themselves onto a partner who is their main source of work and is like their track towards partnership or like even just continued work in this firm. And so you feel like you have to you feel beholden to this person. Right. And so those folks I'm willing to give a pass to. But the people who were sitting in the partner's dining room with these knuckleheads like
01:01:59
Speaker
They knew and they made a conscious choice to go. I'm going to leave open in my mind and in my hearts for these people, I'm going to leave open the possibility that the people at Lewis-Brisbaugh that they left were just as bad and so they felt like
01:02:20
Speaker
You know, I'm choosing one devil or the other devil like which one's just going to put more money in my pocket. And so like that's a possibility. But I have a hard time imagining people not knowing who they were going with at a high enough level.
01:02:38
Speaker
Well, in our Slack group that we have talked about, people have already been talking, people had been talking mess about Louis Brisbaugh for a while before this was news at all.
01:02:51
Speaker
Uh, do you have history with, with, um, Jason, you don't, you can, you do blink twice. Okay. There's a specific attorney in our group that talked about how much he hated the firm because of how, because of his bad experiences with them. Um, I didn't seem to have no experience with them at all, but more than just the usual, the big law is terrible. Like that basically the work product sucks and et cetera, et cetera.
01:03:16
Speaker
It wasn't in this vein, right? It was particular like they are like across the board in his experience, unnecessarily difficult and non-compliant. Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. But it wasn't as though he wasn't receiving these emails with.
01:03:30
Speaker
No, he might've gotten some, I think he did get some unprofessionally unkind stuff. Oh, okay. But, you know, that happens. It happens. And I, Louis Brissois isn't the only firm that I could think of when I think of, oh yeah, everybody there is a jerk. Everybody there is the worst.
01:03:54
Speaker
But yeah, I just thought it was one of those. But now they're going through a lot of pain. So maybe some people get some enjoyment out of it. But I don't know enough about that. No.
01:04:06
Speaker
All right. Well, so I speak of enjoyment
Emotional Gaming Experiences
01:04:08
Speaker
out of things. We can probably just do our what's what's up with us, what's going on, what we're interested in. I could be to a quick one. I've been playing Zelda. I bought it after you guys. Oh, you did. Yeah. Mercilessly made fun of me and bullied me. And really, you were really mean, really. And so I bought it and I've been playing it and I enjoyed a lot. It's great. It reminds me of what I liked about Breath of the Wild, which is like it's as
01:04:30
Speaker
regimented and story lined as you want it to be. Like you can kind of go off on your own for a little while and like throw in 20 minutes and do a couple of shrines or whatever and then come back to it. I love those kind of games. I always forget that that's the thing I like. Thank you for the recommendation. I'm enjoying it thoroughly.
01:04:43
Speaker
There's I'm I still haven't I haven't finished it. I mean, like I haven't beaten the story. I keep forgetting that there's a story that I'm supposed to be going to. But there's a I've done all four of the like first temples that they make you do. And then like so. But there's it also gives you pretty early on like a quest to go get 12 tiers or 12 like these 12 things.
01:05:15
Speaker
And it's story related. And that is shockingly poignant, the story part of conclusion to that quest. Something happened there where I was like, my heart sank a little bit. I kind of, yeah. Do you know what I'm talking about? I have a suspicion what you're talking about, but there's just no way I'm going to spoil it here.
01:05:39
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. Like it was really, I had figured out what was, what had happened like before the end. But you know, even knowing, even having figured it out, pretty, pretty confident what had happened, just seeing, seeing the ending was like, oh man, that was, that's, you know, man, that's emotional.
01:06:06
Speaker
Oh, which is something I've never gotten from a Zelda game. Zelda has never really done that. No, I mean, that's surprising to hear. Yeah, I haven't either. I'll have to set that aside on a day when I want to be bummed. Yeah. When you. Yeah, when it's the the big ground glyphs, if you know what I'm talking about, I don't know if you've gotten that far. Yeah, I did. Like when you do all of those. Yeah, that's that's got quite a that's got quite a conclusion to that quest. Oh, boy.
01:06:34
Speaker
Are you still playing on the switch that's broken or do you have to get a new one? Yes, I still got the broken half switch. I'm going to run that thing baby till it dies. That's my philosophy with cars too. And you're not docking it. You're playing it in your hand. I'm playing it undocked on my crappy old screen. But my brother also got me playing Dabla 4, which is man, there are a lot of games coming out. I'm having trouble. Yeah, it just came out on Monday, I think.
01:07:01
Speaker
I'm having trouble finding time to play these games and like keep my headspace in one of these games because my brother likes to have a four and But you can't just pick up and play dabble for for like 10 minutes. You gotta like commit and But that's also very that's a great dabble game if you like to have a two dabble three This is this is a good one
01:07:24
Speaker
I have to circle back to Jedi fall in order and finish that before I can do anything. I have like I'm getting not a professional gamer like me. No, I forget to do it. I got to play it undocked. I don't have access to the TV. My daughter's doing something on the TV. I can't use it. I don't think to do the undock. Yeah. Yeah. All right. What you got, Jason? Are you recommending selling your house?
01:07:43
Speaker
No, no, that's not fun. I don't have a recommendation. I can't recommend it yet because it's not out yet and I haven't played it yet. But I am on the hype train for Final Fantasy 16. I'm getting pretty pumped about doing that. And so I'm glad that they're going to correct, it sounds like, hopefully, the mistakes that they made with Final Fantasy 15 and give you
01:08:09
Speaker
More of a fantasy feel like a traditional Final Fantasy feel in the game. So I'm on the hype train for that We got I think two more weeks Until that comes out. So I'm getting excited. I'm trying to get moved before that happens. It doesn't feel like it's gonna happen but You know, it's I'm excited. Is that PlayStation only?
01:08:32
Speaker
I think it is, yes. I think it's coming out on PC, if not immediately, and like a year later or something like that. Okay. I'm going to buy a PlayStation and the game. This is getting expensive.
01:08:44
Speaker
I love how it's totally my influence on the podcast that recommendations are now video game hour, the video game segment. I consciously made an effort to try to play. I super enjoy video games. I just never play them and I don't know why and I've been trying to. This is a good...
01:09:03
Speaker
Force my hand. I push you. Yeah. I'm going to try to watch Silo, the Apple TV Plus show. All I've seen is the trailer and the trailer is like this really dramatic reading of a woman saying, have you ever thought that maybe they're not telling us the truth about the Silo? I don't know why. It's just so funny to me. It's like a chat GPT generated quote.
01:09:29
Speaker
I've heard it's good. I don't know. That is hilariously cheesy. That's like a 30 rock bit. For sure. Bye bye. This music's better. This music makes more sense. But it's not intro music. We can't use it as intro. It's too like, you know, think about what we said.
01:09:51
Speaker
It's a little Bojack Horseman, though. It's a little bit Phil Collins in the air tonight. Oh, it is. We need the drum coming. Have you listened?