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Episode 5: The Performing Art of Therapy
80 Plays4 years ago
Mark O’Connell explains how acting techniques can enrich the experience of insight-oriented psychotherapy. His methods help us understand the importance of finding our most authentic selves inside the therapy session, as well as outside of it.
Find more on Mark O'Connell here:
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Doorknob Comments' Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Even when we're being quiet and making space, it comes from our presence, not from our absence. Thank you for joining us on Doorknob Comments, a podcast that we created to discuss all things involving mental health.
Understanding Psychiatry Beyond Illness
00:00:18
Speaker
We take the view that psychiatry is not just about the absence of illness, but rather the positive qualities, presence of health and strong relationships and all the wonderful things that make life worth living. I'm Dr. Farah White. And I'm Dr. Grant
Introducing Guest Mark O'Connell
00:00:31
Speaker
Brenner.
00:00:31
Speaker
And with our guest for today, Mark O'Connell. He's a New York City-based psychotherapist and private practice and author and
Exploring 'The Performing Art of Therapy'
00:00:39
Speaker
an actor. And we're here to talk about his book, The Performing Art of Therapy. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
00:00:46
Speaker
Grant, do you want to sort of talk a little bit about how you met Mark and what made you want to bring him in here today? Yeah, we were in a study group together for the last year or two. I felt some resonance because I also think that therapists could learn a lot more about how to use their body and could learn a lot more about how to behave with patients in therapeutic ways. I've often thought that therapy training should involve some role playing and building some specific skills. So when I heard Mark was working on this book, I thought it would be excellent and it is excellent.
00:01:16
Speaker
I've had a chance to review a copy and I look forward to reading it in details.
Mark's Journey: From Actor to Therapist
00:01:22
Speaker
Why don't you tell us a little bit about how did you become a therapist and how did you get into acting originally and I know you talk about it in the book a bit. I was always a listener.
00:01:31
Speaker
I think that's really the answer for both of it because listening is the core of both of those jobs. I had so much to do. I think as any performer, it's so much about who you are as an idiosyncratic being in the world. And I was born, you know, a gender nonconforming gay, you know, male. And so so much of that was obvious when I was when I was young, I was queer, I was one of four boys. All of that's, you know, related to my listening and my active listening and interest in
00:01:59
Speaker
really every, every person. I was kind of outside of life a lot of the time is how it felt. And so I was actively listening and so interested in all these people around me who got to be alive and be idiosyncratic themselves. And so I was just always interested in sort of not only what people said, but how they said it and what that implied about them. And then I dreamed of being an actor. So the flip side of that was I really wanted to come alive. And so I would eventually start playing these people in my life that these big personalities.
00:02:28
Speaker
And that's what – when I started acting in college, that's sort of what I would do. And then I tried it out as a career. I went to grad school. It became more real. That's when I saw – noticed that I couldn't just become all these people anymore because you have to market yourself very much as – the everyday self part of you has to be marketable. And mine wasn't.
00:02:49
Speaker
Well, there still aren't many roles available for effeminate men, but that was my everyday self, if you think of yourself as an instrument and that you play some of these keys in the middle and you've got all these other keys that you can play when you become characters. I wanted to be all the characters, but many people didn't want
00:03:07
Speaker
I did work, but I had to contort myself a lot. And then I started a theater company which allowed artists to play multiple versions of themselves and gave myself that chance too. And then becoming a therapist was really just the next step of that. It felt very fluid to give people the chance to be lots of different things. And then I feel ultimately very integrated because it's the listener that I always was, basically.
The Presence of a Therapist
00:03:31
Speaker
It's interesting because there's a way where I hear a bit of the outsider, but I gather you found a sense of belonging as a therapist as well. Very much. I've never felt more like myself completely. I mean, I think doing this job and then bringing the acting into it. I mean, I just, it feels so integrated and right. And that's really what I want for my clients too.
00:03:54
Speaker
know that Grant brought it up a little bit. And this is something that we don't give a lot of thought to, really. As therapists, I didn't really get much training in how to use my body, how to breathe. Do you think that therapists could benefit from that? And if so, how? What are the kind of tips that, having been in the field and knowing a lot of therapists, what we could benefit?
00:04:18
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like there's a version of this book for anybody really, like in any kind of performance setting in the workplace, because a lot of the techniques that you talk about, and as it says on the cover, it's not a list of techniques, but rather a journey into the use of oneself, the essential instrument of therapeutic engagement, but that could work in a lot of different relationships.
00:04:39
Speaker
for listeners, the book is organized like a play. There's act one, two, and three, and it works very well. It's not forced. And there's act one is prepare, act two is rehearse, act three is perform. It's really rich. There's everyday examples. And it's not written in a jargony way. I think people who aren't in the field could benefit from reading it. But as Dr. White as Farah is saying in prepare, there's several different things in the act one. There's listen,
00:05:05
Speaker
know what you look like, know what you sound like, be present, breathe, embody, speak, and then warm up. What would you say about breathing? Well, it's important. I mean, it's the first thing we forget to do, and it's so crucial. It gives us space to think when we're in the room with clients, to be in the presence of another person.
00:05:28
Speaker
is very challenging, right? You can easily sort of negate yourself and just sort of make it all about the other person or you can, you know, just dominate. And breathing really gives you the opportunity to use your mind and also receive what's coming at you at the same time. But the reason the book is organized in the way it is in these different facets
The Role of Breathing in Therapy
00:05:48
Speaker
of using the self
00:05:49
Speaker
We become, I think, fragmented when we grow up. I think as babies, it's very simple. We're very congruent. We breathe. We think it's all, you know, you see a panting happy baby and, you know, and it's so lovely, right, to see a self that is breathing and thinking.
00:06:07
Speaker
and interacting and receiving and it's so simple and then we make it so complicated and we become a Picasso painting and it's so hard to reintegrate all of that and so drama school is one of the only places I ever encountered where you're actually doing that in a conscious way which is a dilemma because it's something that has to happen naturally but it's still worth trying and that's why you have to have a zen approach to it to do by not doing if you will so I try to
00:06:32
Speaker
my best to structure it so that there are these different ways into using the self and the body. So that being said, for breathing, I focus on not breathing for one thing so that you practice getting an innate sense of why you're doing it to begin with.
00:06:48
Speaker
So you can just sort of be in your body and recognize that you're breathing so that you can live, so that you can interact with people and be alive and creative. And then I also provide some exercises for expanding your capacity to breathe, your rib cage. And that's really important when we're in heightened
00:07:05
Speaker
encounters with clients when there's trauma and we have to tolerate a lot of trauma, a crisis of some kind, you know, just an abrasive personality or an aggressive combative personality. Those are some of the tools that I practice so that I can be in those situations, rise to the occasion and then, you know, kind of take care of myself at the same time.
00:07:24
Speaker
I find that breath awareness hurts is like a Freudian slip. I find that breath awareness helps a lot when there's anxiety around other people. There's a way where, you know, when you said, when you breathe, it's about living. And I think that helps people stay grounded when there's a lot of anxiety. It keeps your breath from kind of
00:07:44
Speaker
taking over your physiology, right? You're aware of your breathing and in control of it. So that rapid breathing that comes with distress, you can kind of track that and control it. But I also wonder about the close encounter with other people that I guess both acting, which I haven't done very much of, but there's a point where you describe and someone comes on the stage and you have to accept their character. It's not so much you being in character as much as you have to believe the other person is who they are. Yes.
00:08:13
Speaker
And so there's something about that intimate encounter which I think is anxiety provoking and breathing helps with that? Absolutely, absolutely.
Balancing Vulnerability and Presence
00:08:22
Speaker
It is anxiety provoking because you're very vulnerable when you allow someone else into your process, when you're open to being changed by someone else, being seen by someone else. And absolutely breathing is a way to both be vulnerable and kind of self-possessed at the same time.
00:08:40
Speaker
It allows you to kind of split the difference that way. So you have a kind of strength in the room, but you're not tense and you're not pushing people out. I think that is so helpful because I'm someone who holds a lot of tension in my body for many years. I had trouble even listening to the sound of my own voice as a therapist. You know, I did have some recordings that I used for training purposes, but it was so, so difficult. Grant knows what a struggle it was for me. It is for everyone.
00:09:07
Speaker
It just felt like, I don't know, nails on a chalkboard. And then I thought, why would anyone want to willingly sit there and listen to me? Oh my god, my inner critic is going to go crazy listening to this podcast. So I mean, it happens. It doesn't really go away. But then the thought.
00:09:22
Speaker
that when we're in the room with someone, they're also looking at us and how we're sitting. I just felt like it was so brave that you talked about watching yourself on camera, seeing the flicker. And I'm wondering what motivated you to do that, whether it was your background in acting or...
00:09:37
Speaker
You mean when I started practicing it myself before I wrote it? I gradually started to implement my acting approaches in the work. It just gradually happened. But actually, no, there is a story. I was getting burnt out at community mental health clinics in the early stages, getting my licensing hours, and I was using probably lots of techniques and not taking care of myself and had an opportunity to do a play, which was
00:10:00
Speaker
a nice vacation because I wasn't pursuing acting professionally it was I was so free and I let myself fail and it was just so fun and I came back to work and I noticed I was still a scene partner even when I was just listening and I thought why don't I just prime myself to be in the scene all the time
00:10:17
Speaker
Listening can always be like this, even just being present. So that's, I think, when I started becoming very interested in how I could just practice being an actor. And it would benefit the work, really. And facing yourself is certainly the biggest job, really, the fear of yourself. And that's what I want to eliminate for therapists like you and for everyone, just the fear. We don't have to be afraid of ourselves. We can use ourselves.
00:10:43
Speaker
You talked about how important it is to find different characters. And you write about the first character is the ideal listener. You talk about how listening is the magic thing. And you write, the idea of sharing our inner lives with a mysterious stranger can ignite the hope of being truly recognized. This hope often motivates us to enter the therapy stage, no matter how much stage fright, quote unquote, we have.
00:11:05
Speaker
I try to locate that hope in each client by observing how they want me to listen to them, which helps me embody a character I call the ideal listener, the mystical person who lives in each of our minds and has an abundant capacity to hold, validate, and encourage us.
00:11:21
Speaker
I'm wondering if you could share your thoughts about that in a beautifully written as well. Oh, thank you. Thank you. That came out of just a lot of trial and error. And when you try to be so intentional and you realize how much you're failing, especially with a new client, to figure out how they want to be listened to. And just over time, I started to give myself a break and realize that I'm just reminding myself of what it was like for me to see therapists and just that anticipation you come in with and that hope.
Theatrical Elements in Therapy
00:11:48
Speaker
or kind of like going to the movies or the play and it's before the curtain comes up and you're already anticipating something. So I just try to get out of their way and I realize if I just get out of their way and let that and that lovely anticipation kind of enter the room, then I don't have to be so self-conscious actually.
00:12:05
Speaker
And that's different than the blank screen, because I'm still present. I'm not the man behind the curtain. I'm still in front of the curtain. It's just that I'm not feeling the pressure to produce something, especially in the beginning. So that way of thinking, I think, helps relieve that self-consciousness.
00:12:23
Speaker
I agree, and I think that the pressure to produce something, whether it's an interpretation or whether it's a supportive comment, really takes us away from the listening. You can get into a place where you're formulating things in your mind and then really not listening at all, which is problematic.
00:12:42
Speaker
I think you referred to that state of mind of kind of intellectually processing, right? Did you have a character for that? I don't know if I had a name for that. I might have imagined it. But I definitely talk about the awareness of it. I mean, I talk about energy centers working with the energy in your body and recognizing when it's very focused in your head and your forehead. And I have a whole section on energy meditation and use of chakras and noticing where you tend to operate from in your body energetically. The head chakra.
00:13:12
Speaker
And the head shopper would be the one that you're talking about. But when you realize that that's happening, you can kind of move out of it and become more of a loose kind of presence, more of a very heartfelt presence or something like that.
00:13:25
Speaker
Well, it's interesting because there's a kind of alchemy there. You talk about the true self and play. I'm wondering what's mystical about listening, the ideal listener. How does that connect with authenticity? Because, of course, some people in our field, they're like, well, I'm not going to fake it as a therapist. And you're obviously not saying that anyone should be inauthentic.
00:13:46
Speaker
If you could speak to that idea of authenticity and sort of the mystical effect of listening. Yeah. Well, as far as authenticity, I would like to think that I'm never fake. I think I'm always looking for a way to be truthful. That's why it's helpful to think of the language of acting. It gives us a sense that we can always be truthful as long as we're looking for the purpose and the given set of circumstances and the safety within each role that we have to play.
00:14:12
Speaker
And then within that frame, we can find some kind of truth. And so that keeps me sort of energized as a therapist because I'm constantly looking for, okay, well, how do I become this person that I don't feel like I can be for this client? This impossible, you know, loving parent to someone who is so combative, for example.
00:14:30
Speaker
Right? Because to be authentic would be what we call an enactment or something. You need to react and be angry and defensive. It's a very exciting process to find a way to be safe enough with someone like that to be truthfully loving them, for example.
00:14:46
Speaker
You know, I was thinking about how truth comes out of the listening. Right, right. The patient's truth, you know, and the mystical power. I mean, I think that's really interesting when people are present with one another. There's this creative space that you can get into, whether it's therapy or acting or, you know, in the boardroom or, you know, in a family. And it struck me that you use the word mystical.
00:15:08
Speaker
Uh-huh. I see. I see. It's max of mysticism. Well, and it is mystical. It is mystical in a way, which isn't necessarily crunchy or something. I mean, again, if you think of the language of acting, this is something that improv performers think of all the time. There's simply a higher consciousness than either person involved. Something else happens. And if you're open to the idea of that, a whole play is going to unfold that is neither created by one or the other.
00:15:37
Speaker
You have to surrender. Yes, absolutely. You have to surrender and trust that there is space between you that's going to help mediate the choices that each of you is making. And if you're responsive and if you are both responsive and trust each other, it does happen. In fact, the process of this book happened that way.
00:15:58
Speaker
Working on it, I reached out to the actress who plays the therapist on Big Little Lies and thinking that, okay, whatever, that's just kind of cool. She's an actor and she's playing a therapist and she's really good. But she got back to me in this way that was very genuine and she was clearly listening.
00:16:14
Speaker
And this dialogue took place and suddenly the process of writing the book took on a life of its own. And I realized as it was happening that I was like, oh, that's the thing I'm talking about. That's the scene partner work between a therapist and client. That's exactly what it is.
The Mystical Process of Therapy
00:16:33
Speaker
And there is something mystical about that when someone actually listens to you and is responsive to you.
00:16:40
Speaker
And she comes from a psychoanalytic background, right? Her father and her grandmother. I describe it in the epilogue, this meta process, because it's very fun. And what actually ended up taking place was very literalizing of this idea. Her mother was a formidable – our grandmother was a formidable psychoanalyst, Edith Weigert.
00:16:59
Speaker
And her father was a well-known psychoanalyst as well. Both of them were fascinated by artists and creative artists. When you are open to these kinds of connections, and this is really the mystical element, you realize how interconnected we actually are as people.
00:17:15
Speaker
So it's a literal kind of example of that that I include, but it is a concept that I think is really true. And that's what mental health is, I think, being open to each other and sharing stories openly and being able to receive them.
00:17:31
Speaker
I feel like charisma is in there somewhere too. I think listening is a part of being charismatic and listening is a part of leadership as well. You know, there's a lot of different angles on it. I do want to talk a little bit about charisma and maybe also that could lead into some portrayals of therapists in the media because they are decidedly the least charismatic.
00:17:56
Speaker
directors. Consistently, it seems to be with the exception of... Robyn Weigert. Right. Her friends. Yeah. The exception of people we like.
00:18:07
Speaker
Can you talk a little bit about what you liked about her performance? Everything. What I liked is that you saw a present human being in the room that was apparent in her voice and in her eyes, which isn't to say that she interfered with her client's process at all. She made space in all the ways that you would hope a therapist would.
00:18:30
Speaker
there was trauma, and she used her voice to help her regulate and share and get out of her way. But she didn't do that from a place of absence, which is what we used to think of with the ideal therapist. She does it from a place of presence. And to me, that is so critical and just revelatory for therapists to see. Even when we're being quiet and making space, it comes from our presence, not from our absence. That's what I loved about it.
00:18:57
Speaker
And there was one thing that really stood out to me, really, as the plot unfolds, how she goes from listener to really being a key player in basically, you know, I don't remember the name of the character, but telling her to get out of the marriage, that she was really in danger. Part of it is, yes, we want to listen, but also when is it time to really take action and to let someone know, hey, this isn't safe?
00:19:24
Speaker
I think it would be good for patients if they really felt like, okay, this therapist is on my team, and if I'm in danger, they're going to let me know.
Listening and Action in Therapy
00:19:34
Speaker
And you gave an example in your book where you really kind of got someone the healthcare that they needed.
00:19:41
Speaker
Directed, right? Directing. Right, right. And that's part of being present, too. I think that's why there's a chapter on being present and practicing sort of the art of sort of determining in the moment, sort of, do I need to follow? Do I need to take the lead? And you have better judgment, I think, the more you practice being present.
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah, I particularly liked the example of getting your teenage patient to the gynecologist because that's something that I'm faced with so, so much. And how do you sort of transition in and out of just like active listening to really like, no, no, you need to.
00:20:15
Speaker
Right. Well, especially when the parent's not working with you. Yeah. Or sometimes it's really the patient who is not seeing something that where it does need to be pointed out and maybe take a few liberties because sometimes I'm prescribing medication and I'll say, well, we need labs and while you're at it. Let's check your cholesterol.
00:20:38
Speaker
Well, what's interesting, so about that example, what I emphasize, I'm remembering, that was about, I was talking about research and sort of because it was a teenage girl. And so I'm just thinking, well, what do I know about teenage girls? And what the research did when you think like an actor, it wasn't sort of like, here's a prescriptive thing that I can do. It was the tone of my voice and sort of
00:20:58
Speaker
By talking to a lot of women in my life about how do I handle this, I got to a point where I was so clear in my thinking that I was focused on how relaxed I was and sort of not pushing it and being very subtle. So that's where the acting came in, where it's not being fake. It's definitely being genuine. But the research and the prep helped me be so clear in my intention that I could be kind of relaxed and sort of inviting for her rather than pushing.
00:21:25
Speaker
You know, I think that's something that's definitely outside of the regular psychotherapy training, you know, which may involve practice with patients and supervision, but sort of researching and trying to actively get information so you can prepare for a role, right? And empathize better is a tool, I think, that therapists and other folks could benefit from as well.
00:21:46
Speaker
I think there's a lot of things in your book that a lot of people could use outside of therapy. One that jumped out at me was the idea of editing. So I wanted to ask you how you define editing and how you think it's useful for anybody. Right. Well, the way I use it in the book is really to help a good editor. I had a very good editor working on this. My friend, actually, Ida Rothschild, is a wonderful editor. But a good editor doesn't just tell you what's wrong.
00:22:10
Speaker
they help you to clarify your authentic voice. And so when I think of editing in the therapy room, I'm listening to the way a client talks about themselves, and I try to say back to them sort of what I'm hearing, or even do a kind of autocorrect if I think I can say it sort of in a way that's, you know, gets more at the heart of what they mean, right? And sometimes that works.
00:22:29
Speaker
How do you think about self-deception? Is there a concept that clients are hiding things from themselves or that people are pretending to be something they're not? Pretending can be a form of play that's very constructive, but it can also be used defensively. How do you think about that as an actor therapist? Well, as an actor therapist, in my experience, the only times I'm bored are when people are lying about something. I've learned.
00:22:56
Speaker
Because I'm truthfully, endlessly interested in everything about people. And the moments I'm bored, I'm just like, oh, wow. They're hiding something, or they're insecure about something. That's like your lie detector. I was trained psychoanalytically that if I feel bored, it means there's rage somewhere in the room.
Unveiling True Feelings in Therapy
00:23:14
Speaker
Well, maybe. That could be one of the things that they're hiding, certainly. But they're definitely hiding something.
00:23:20
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I have found that that's actually, I mean, it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy very easily, but usually if I feel bored, I'm yawning, and it's unusual. I kind of know how tired I am at baseline, but sometimes it's like a spell comes over me, and I'm just like, this is almost like a soporific effect. It's like a Snow White, like Sleeping Beauty.
00:23:40
Speaker
Like, I'm being knocked out by some kind of psychological force that I can't quite glimpse. And I'll say something like, you know, when I feel like this, I'll say this out loud, you know, I was taught that this means there's anger somewhere. And that's a strong suggestion. But it also, I can't think of a time where it hasn't been like, well, I am really angry about that. And I'm kind of like, well, that's interesting. What happened that it wasn't present? How did it come out that way?
00:24:05
Speaker
Right. No, that's true. You have to at those times do something provocative and it usually does something to do with anger. Oftentimes it can be something like they expect you to be doing more or something together frustrated. They don't know how to talk about that, how to get more out of you, something like that.
00:24:21
Speaker
It could be some sort of critical aspect like the therapist isn't doing something right. But then there are people who seem like they're angry all the time and I don't want them to get angry. Any advice on how to keep people from going there and still have it be useful? Wow, that's very...
00:24:37
Speaker
challenging question. I mean, I talk about safety. So like you have to feel safe, right? So, you know, I guess if I feel I'm assaulted in any way, you know, I obviously have to set some kind of limit because you can't work. You just can't do your work if you're feeling unsafe. There's like an actor like you can't if you're feeling like, oh, wow, I'm physically threatened. Like we had fight choreography for this. What's going on? Why? You know, you have to be safe first and foremost. So, yeah, you can't really do much work if someone's that angry. I mean, that's just it.
00:25:05
Speaker
How do you gently convey that? Because that's really challenging, like you said. And I don't mean to put you on the spot too much. I'm trying to think. Maybe all my clients have repressed rage. Because I can't think of it. They just want you to be at the top of your game. I black out, and then I find myself at the Whitney two hours later, and I don't know what happened. Wow. I mean, it hasn't happened very recently. I don't know. I mean, what kind of rage are we talking about? You mean like yelling at me or something like that?
00:25:35
Speaker
Well, you talked about the idea of folks getting angry at one another and not being able to express it very clearly. And I think you have a vignette with a couple where one of the people in the couple is going out and partying. The other one is kind of, he's trying to stay home. And you describe listening and then editing. And you say to the more quiet guy kind of at the end, like, what is it that you really want to say? Right. And it wasn't so much, I'm angry at my partner, but it was more like, what do I really want?
00:26:04
Speaker
Right. Um, and I was listening to them. I had to look away from them because there was so much that wasn't being said that I actually, in that case, I had to, I would even tell them, I was like, I'm looking away from you because I need to experience this as a radio play. So I'm getting too confused and distracted by seeing you. And, um, and then, yeah, and then I could listen better too.
00:26:23
Speaker
And I like to say, I mean, bringing in, sometimes there are literal ways in which I bring in sort of the theatrical element and that was an example of it. You know, when you kind of talk about sort of like the scene work that we're in in a meta way. Sometimes I do take a more active approach as an acting coach.
00:26:39
Speaker
And this is when you asked Grant about other professions. How can this be useful on some of these ideas? I have clients with whom I do a bit of acting coaching with for their relationships with their partners, but also for their careers. If they work in a corporate setting and they manage people, for example, I have clients who are, I have to give them the same acting coaching for their partner as I do for talking to their employees, basically. And so we'll go over their line readings.
00:27:08
Speaker
I did what you told me to do. I said, this is what I need. And I'll say, OK, how did you say it? And of course, it's just like, this is what I need. And then I let him or her listen to like, OK, I guess I was kind of blaming and sort of criticizing. And so then I might give a line. We're like, you know what? This is what I need. And it begins with the tone of voice. But then I have them explore sort of like, well, what will it take for you to get to that tone of voice?
00:27:37
Speaker
Do you need to take a moment to process why you're so angry about it or why you think that you're entitled to blame them for not listening to you and all of that, which is what any therapist would do in some way, but I work with it in terms of the line reading
Therapists and Clients as Scene Partners
00:27:53
Speaker
of it. How are they performing the lines?
00:27:55
Speaker
It sounds very protective because it creates kind of a theater in which people can look at their choices without feeling judged. Hopefully, yeah. I mean, I try. I try. And then if I seem judgy, I apologize. You can always apologize. I like that part. I mean, again, if you think of it in terms of acting, in rehearsal, you're always failing. And a lot of good stuff comes out of failing. So as long as you acknowledge, like, ah, that didn't work. That bombed.
00:28:21
Speaker
you know, then invites the client to be part of that process and to be present. We're running out of time for today. Any final thoughts?
00:28:29
Speaker
Well, there were three things that I would love to offer as takeaways. Three different people read the book recently and gave me some feedback, and one was a colleague who's been working for years in the profession, and she told me that she feels more energized in her work all of a sudden, that she just is excited to go to work and to really think of what she does creatively. Someone else is from a family of artists and is a therapist friend of mine, and she said that she had always felt like she wasn't part of the family.
00:28:54
Speaker
business, but now she really considers herself an artist and she feels she has permission to think of herself that way. And the third was a client actually who read one of the vignettes that was about them and said to me the most lovely thing that they felt they were so encouraged that I'm as involved in the process as they are.
00:29:14
Speaker
And that's how they felt reading the thing and recognize that even when I'm just sitting back and listening, that I'm not getting burnt out, that I'm not feeling burdened, that I'm actually a scene partner in this creative process with them. So if I want anyone to take anything away, it's really those three things I hope people can be energized and think of themselves as artists and in the scene with their clients. Yeah, absolutely. You're really there.
00:29:39
Speaker
This was so great, Mark. Thank you so much for coming down and for being here with us today. Thank you so much. I've learned so much from you and can't wait to implement it this afternoon, actually. Yeah.
Conclusion and Further Resources
00:29:51
Speaker
And for folks who want to learn more about Mark O'Connell, please go to his website at www.markoconnelltherapist.com, www.markoconnelltherapist.com. Thanks very much for joining us today. Thank you so much.