Transcript
Speaker: Hello Pandalorians and welcome to our 300th episode. Two quick things before we begin. Firstly, just want to give a huge shout out to all the Pandalorians out there who have listened to us over the years. Your support means the world to us. Now, on a more serious note, just a disclaimer that this episode will contain topics that some people may find upsetting, relating to grief and loss. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker: Alright Satsu, what new episodes are we going to be doing today? More anime? Something gaming. Ooh, ooh. How about something on Tidal? islands. I'm tired, Wonko.
Speaker: The season has to end. What are you talking about, man? You're clearly being obscure about this, aren't you? Did you say clear obscure? Expedition 33? Game of the Year, en français! Kua! Satsu! You're not making any sense! We have to end Season 6 here and now, after everyone who recorded before. It's what other podcasters would do. But you're not!
Speaker: You're not! other the podcasts. Wee! are your co -hosts. Podcasting. is complicated. If saving the podcast means losing you as a host.
Speaker: That's so... BX. I never thought it would come to this. But it's time to pull out the big guns. The real question you have to ask yourself is... or the library. Do you care so - Wait, what? Je voudrais mon pomme de frites Satsu, have you been on Duolingo? Again? india muami be end the new ah chatuna made up turned the bo el de neonni parkip pun to
Speaker: Hello everybody and welcome to the 300th episode of Chatsunami. Woohoo! My name's Satsunami, and after changing my trousers... Yep, today we are joined by the one and only Wonko the Sane. Wonko, welcome back to this historic moment in Chatsunami history. I beat out everyone to be here, man. The big 300, congratulations.
Speaker: Damn well earned. Thank you. and Thank you. You were the only one clapping. The rest of the co -hosts are laying on the floor in a bloody heap. Except Martin. Martin kind of just vanished. I don't know where he's gone after last week. All I see are these rose petals where he was. For such a big, muscly man, he sure moves quick. He does, actually. He moves like a gazelle, but anyway, that's beside the point. Didn't realise you had gazelles in Scotland. Well, you can't see them. They move so fast. you know Oh, I've got it. Moves like a Nessie, stings like a bee. You know what? I can... put it better on myself and after 300 episodes this is the final episode of the podcast wonko how do you feel about that i'm very happy to have gotten you cancelled so yeah fantastic man fantastic hey so what are we doing today i don't know i thought you had a plan oh no oh hang on hang on 300 episode hooray question mark question mark question mark profit oh after 300 episodes and we're still on the same wavelength that is scary oh no it's the magic of podcasting i don't know what to tell you isn't it just it is really bizarre to think that we are on the 300th episode now because i'm going to be honest i didn't expect us to get this far why are we here satsunami why are we here just to suffer because i was trying to put this into perspective for myself and the only way i can do that is through pop culture references it's going to be the simpsons it's going to be the simpsons it's going to be the simpsons get out of my head
Speaker: You saw the tweet, didn't you? Yeah, so apparently the 300th episode of The Simpsons was in season 14 and episode 11 of that season. We have essentially done 14 and a bit episodes worth of The Simpsons. That's a hell of a run. Yeah, it's absolutely vital because technically, if you include the other episodes that we've done, like Chatsu Shorts, the commentary tracks, the best ofs, those kind of things. So no. including those extra episodes because we're well over 300 in that regard. but I think one of the craziest things about the show as well is the fact that we actually we do 50 episodes per season. Now, seeing as you're a super fan, of course, of Chatsunami Wonko, do you know why we do 50 per season? ah Because it's a round number and you can't sleep at night if you don't have a round number. Yes, that's true. But do you know the legal reason why?
Speaker: No! I haven't kept up with your strange Scottish bylaws, so no, no, I haven't. Not after the incident. This is a side tangent here, but I was reading a thing where someone said, what's the best way to end a sentence? And you just say, not after the incident. And then you never clarify. Just the incident. yeah So if you ever want to get out of anything, just say, not after the incident. But no, it was because, and it was a funny one, because when we started the podcast, as you know, we did it during COVID and everything. and the 50th episode was around the time that adam couldn't keep up with doing it live on a wednesday oh yes it used to be a wednesday occurrence didn't it yeah so it used to be streamed on wednesday and say and then i think we released it the week after it was released when you got around to editing it but well yeah yeah i wasn't gonna say that but thanks man yeah i was a busy man back then okay but what changed What changed them indeed, man? 300 episodes in the beginning. 300 episodes changed. Yeah. Yeah, the reason for the 50 episode cap was because Adam had said, I can't do them on the wedding stage. Do you want to change them to a different day? And I was like, you know what? Why don't we cap it at 50 and then start recording them off air? Because we used to do the majority of them on Twitch. Yes, you did. Yeah. An audience calling slash writing in bit at the end, which I always thought was nice. Yeah, that was always lovely. I really should get back into that as some. point but yeah the only problem with that now is i have a compulsion to do 50 episodes per season so that is like a whole year's worth of content all the way from october to august and then september's always my month off this is what we call a self -inflicted problem yeah i don't point out your problems on there thank you very much What are you gonna do, huh? What are you gonna do?
Speaker: So, Uncle, where can the Pandalurians find your content? I'm in the Discord whenever you want me. Come at me, bro. Our Netflix boxing match aside here. No one is going to pay to see us have a boxing match. We're going to have to have it in a bloody Tesco's car park or something. I'm glad you listened to that episode because I know exactly the episode you're talking about. Huge shout out to Wisteria Moth and SuperShadow271 who unfortunately perished in a Waffle House parking lot. Oh, it was the Waffle House, damn it. Oh, some super fan I am. Was it not a Target parking lot? Then it devolved into a Waffle House. And then I was told by the Americans that apparently you're not allowed to fight in an IHOP because it's like a so sacred land. Oh, doing so would bring great dishonor to your house and your clan. And your pa - Pancakes, apparently. And your pancakes. I mean, it's like fighting in an embassy. You just don't do it. That is something I never thought I'd say after 300 episodes. You know that. You should tell Daniel Craig about that. A couple of films, who you know, he's not been quite respecting international law. Just saying. But fighting in a Waffle House. No, no. I mean, I was going for the embassy, but maybe a Waffle House could be arranged. I was going to say, if anybody's guilty of that, it's Henry Cavill in Man of Steel. He decimated that, I hope. Demolished the International House of Waffle Pancakes. Bastard. Mr. Cavill, that's... why you're not allowed in chat tsunami but in all seriousness if you would love to come on please I need the views man come on we can talk about Warhammer you could actually that's true I can mispronounce Syphus Kane Is it Hearty or then? Is it Kyphos or Syphos? No, it's Kyphos. It is Kyphos. Chewle goes down my neck like, am I not a super fan of Warhammer either? Is this the day that everything comes tumbling down for Wonko? No, it was because our mutual friend, Robotic Battletoaster, a lovely guy. I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but I always remember saying, oh yeah, one of my favourite books is Syphos Kane. And he went, good old Kyphos. And I was sitting there thinking, oh, that's a shame, he's mispronounced it. And I was like, but I was the fool. It wasn't me. Because I said that to my friends. I'm like, did you know it was called Cai Fiskane? And they went, uh -huh. And I went, so all this time we've been friends, Warhammer buddies, and I've been saying I love Cai Fiskane. And you've never corrected me. No once. And he was like, yeah. oh god damn it i have a similar story like that i was doing a pickup game way way back when when fifth edition just came around the guy hey come over here you know there's a new edition of warhammer these are the ultramines and so i you know i'm a smug little 14 year old i try and show off he's like oh yes those are the ultramines the guardian of mccraggy and he just goes it's mccrag excuse me sir i'm always in ireland so i should have known you know you see a mac And you see a crag. You should put them together. No, McCraggy. Oops. Anyway, we all make mistakes. I was going to say, suspiciously enough, McCrag is also the name of my plumber, but that's another thing. McCrag. Anyway, for to keep that aside, honestly, I think that just shows how much we've actually talked about on the podcast. We have talked about, obviously, Warhammer. We've talked about Tidal Islands, of course, as we do. Lindisfarne. Lindisfarne, amazing. Who could forget? But honestly, we've talked about a wide range of topics. We've talked about gaming, anime, films, general interest. We've done interviews with some absolutely amazing content creators. And some improbable movie stars swung by. and everything and podcasters it has honestly been such a pleasure talking to it all of these creatives and essentially getting closer to my friends as well because you know the reason i started the podcast and the long -term listeners will be rolling their eyes going jesus christ so hurt us a million times boring
Speaker: Boo this man! Boo! but the major reason i still do this is because it was a way for me to get closer to my friends and everything to be able to express my general interest whether the internet wanted to hear my thoughts about sonic about life in pokemon or 40k world yeah or the raid or anything like that oh the raid was a good one oh that is a blush from the past that one was that season one no that's season two no no season one it was season one wasn't it yeah a lot of half of season one Yeah, back when we did them all live and my editing was rough back then. If you want to hear a retrospective of what we thought about each episode, I would highly recommend you check out our 100k plays special because it's such a good episode. Martin and I went through each episode, what we thought about it, what we thought about each season. It's a great retrospective, to be quite frank. Oh, it is. Solid listing. Great stuff. And you get some anecdotes, you get some little tidbits thrown in and out, and you both had fun going. going through 100 episodes, which speaks volumes for the chemistry that you both have. So I think that was very, very well done. Very much fair play involved. Oh, I mean, every single person I have in Chatsunami, if I don't have chemistry, they're out the door. Anyway, won't call when you leave. No, I'm joking.
Speaker: No, don't send me back to the shadow realm. To the Discord with you, boyo. What was it you said in the first episode we did together? I was chained to a radiator in a charming corner of your squalid Discord server. That makes me laugh every time. A, because it's not true, by the way, for legal reasons. For legal reasons. It's not. Panda Lawyer himself chains me up every night. But yeah, no, joking aside, it has been absolutely fantastic to see how the podcast has grown because, I mean, even this year, we have been to so many Comic -Cons and we've got three more. this year to go to you have yes yeah so we've got epic comic -con at the end of september run by the fantastic fan frontier Yay. In October, we've got Highland Realms. And last but certainly not least, at the end of October, the week after, we've got Cody. Oh, that's going to be a fast turnaround for you. Can you manage? You up for it? I'll crawl in my bed. Not while one of my fans needs me. I don't think they'll ever listen to your podcast. He's a good promoter. He just keeps playing one word on repeat. Regret, regret, regret. It'll be absolutely fantastic to... those columns and everything we were also nominated for the scottish podcast awards you was robbed yeah yeah sadly i'm not saying it was rigged but yeah i said it what you gonna do huh Chad Tsunami has been banned. No, in all seriousness, there were a bunch of absolutely fantastic nominees there. And it was amazing to see the absolute scope of all of the podcasters. In one room as well. Oh yeah, it was a sweaty room, not going to lie. In Edinburgh, no less. Glasgow. In Glasgow, no less. It was absolutely, not because everyone was panicking, like, oh, am I going to win? Am I not going to win? But also because there was a heat wave at the time. Time Witch. As of recording this episode, nothing's changed. Global warming has not been solved. Everything is burning. It actually is. It's sad, but it's true. What was it a couple of weeks back? Was it the Cairngorms caught fire in rainy, damp Scotland? Something is going very, very wrong. Same with Arthur's seat as well. That was like a month or two ago that caught fire. Did it? Yeah. We've kind of been distracted with the huge fires we've had in France, which you might have heard about as well. And as of time of speaking, 500 people have been arrested. to do with the fires in France. So it's absolutely batshit insane at the moment. Nice. Crazy numbers. I know, right? Down in England, they had a national warning, see through their phones. Yeah, yeah, push and let. I don't know what you call it. I think ever since COVID, they have been so trigger happy to send these out. I've never had one in my life up until COVID. And then I've had a good handful of them. I'm like, what is going on? Why do I have so many? Is it just fires? Or does it also warn you when the Greggs is running low on sausage rolls? Column A, column B. But what I found quite funny was I was sitting there and everyone down south, of course, complaining because they're like oh my god i jumped at this message i thought world war three had kicked off or something see in scotland i genuinely don't think we got this warning we were all sleeping through it i'm like oh hey guys what's up and you look down in england and it's like literally burning and you're like oh it won't cross the border it'll be fine don't worry about it quick aside here i can't remember what it was for i think it might have been a test or something but my partner she got one of the warnings on her phone okay right and i'm sitting there now i'm looking at my phone i'm like where's mine Yeah. What about me? It wasn't until five minutes later I got mine and I thought, well, I've been nuked. Well, I'm dead. My girlfriend is safely down in the bunker with her producer having a nice tea and everything and I'm sitting here like an idiot being like, let's record a podcast. Just a little red panda skeleton. Little Setsu. And the rest. God, I love that episode. Oh, there's so many good ones. But in all seriousness, see, this is the kind of thing I love about the podcast. And I'm going to get a wee bit sentimental here. It's the fact that whenever I listen to each episode, it's such a time capsule all the time of my life. Yeah, because you can catch right back. Not quite what was I thinking at that time, but what was I going through? You know, what was I maybe wearing? What was I thinking about? What were my projects? Did they come to pass? Did they not? Because I can definitely relate. You know, the first podcast we recorded for... i was about to go to japan two years through it we recorded well hell divers which was not a podcast but a video but it's still somewhere in the broader spectrum and then we recorded one when i was back so that's been a hell of an evolution for me and it's nice to look back on them it's like oh i was an idiot oh i was still an idiot but i was a bit less and i'm still an idiot now so you know
Speaker: I mean, you should listen to the progression of me through this podcast. I began with the, hi guys. Okay, so today we're going to talk about Warhammer, okay? Okay, you're never that bad. You're never that bad. Also, I've never heard a nerdy Scottish person in my life. You've clearly never been to a Games Workshop here. Come on, man. No, I haven't, to be fair. I remember years ago, I was in a Games Workshop. So how's that sponsorship for Games Workshop going, Sat? This is not reflective on Games Workshop, but it is reflective on the people who frequent it. Because I remember my friend and I went in to get one of the, you know, you get the free models every so often to paint and shop. Or they used to do that. They probably don't do that anymore. But I remember we went in, if I was during uni, so probably the same time that you and I started talking. Way back then, yeah. So my friend and I visited the local Games Workshop and there was a guy talking about how he had unfortunately lost his grandfather. And that was a shame. So he said, anyway, I got the inheritance and he was going to be blowing it all in Fortigate. And he's like, I mean, he would have wanted me to spend it on something rather than it sitting away. God above. Maybe not 40k. That's all I'm saying. It's like, you know that scene in Alien where Ripley's hiding and then it's like the alien's right at her face going...
Speaker: Exactly. I was like, get away from her, you bitch. I almost went Hank Hilda. Get away from her, you bitch. I'll tell you what. That alien ain't right. That xenomorph ain't right. Dang it. Oh, full circles. What are they? Anyway, to celebrate 300 episodes. And honestly, I thought about doing another retrospective episode and everything. But I thought, what better way than to celebrate with a game that I've gotten recently acquainted with. and we spoke about it last week we spoke about the gameplay we spoke about some of the story beats and how it was so revolutionary because of the way it presented itself and everything and that is of course exposition 33 Yeah, Claire Obscure, Expedition 33, en Expedition 33. Merci beaucoup. And he always said thank you in a different language. here The code switching is real. Gracias. Gracias. That's exactly what I was going to say. Oh, it's just, yeah. I actually have a funny little anecdote about just the name of Claire Obscure, if you like. what do yeah The Japanese have a great deal of problems pronouncing Claire Obscure. So they call it Nantoka 33. Basically, blah, blah, 33. Nantoka? Nantoka. Nantoka is what you say when you're like saying, you know, blah, blah, Nantoka, Nantoka. So in French, it's Nantoka 33.
Speaker: ah That's amazing I've got nothing to say to that to be quite honest This is amazing. It's pretty good, actually. And a friend told me that. And while I was waiting for Satsunami to set up, I was watching an interview with Guillaume Broche, the director of Sandfall Entertainment and basically the creator of Claire Obscure. Also the proper way to say that name. That's the proper way of saying it, yeah. Google, you betrayed me for the last time.
Speaker: Ah. and Anyway, sorry, go on. And he told the exact same anecdote. So I'm like, ah, I'm in the know. I'm hip. I'm cool. Regarde -moi, senpai. Ah, nantoka, nantoka. Nantoka, nantoka, 33. You do to realize that's going to be my vocal stem for the next half of the year. It's going to be, ah, nantoka, nantoka. How are you doing? We used it all the time, man. We used it absolutely all the time. We're talking about, you know, oh, we're going to do this sentence. Nantoka, nantoka, went to the park. Yeah. Great. Nantoka, nantoka. Incredible. But yeah, as I was saying before, we spoke about just... how revolutionary this game was, purely in terms of gameplay. We touched on the story and everything, and it was a fantastic discussion with Martin. It was really good. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Originally, I was asking Seth, you know, can we you put me and Martin and yourself in a recording studio? But the problem is that, you know, Martin and I have never been seen in the same room at the same time, and we want to keep it that way. So, badda bing, badda bum. I get the feeling you're just like three Frenchmen in a trench coat. You just switch every so often. It's like, which one are you? That horrifying image aside, sorry.
Speaker: So after playing the game, I had a lot of thoughts and you definitely heard it last week, of course, when I was like, oh, definitely. If I wasn't texting you, I was texting Martin and then vice versa. And it was so interesting to hear your thoughts about it and get your reaction to what I was going through. Yeah. And something that happened to me because I was talking to my friend while I was going through it and he knew what was coming. So it's like, oh, interesting. What do you think is going to happen? Ah, good job, kiddo. I was 100 % wrong in everything. I was like, time travel? No. Duplicate? No. Kind of, but no. Dream world? No. Yes and no. Sat, where are you now? Oh, I'm on Les Felles de Rochevague, Stonewave Cliffs. Oh, you're going to have a good time, buddy. Just keep going. Why is this part blurry? What? I don't like it. I want to go back. Take me
Speaker: No! Father! Unhand me priest! Or even Verso! Oh, God. It is to laugh. What I'm laughing at is this is going to be such an in -depth episode because I've been dying to pick apart the themes of this game. And, you know, much like any custody battle, Martin got the gameplay and everything. And this week you get the themes. You get it for the weekend. I only see my boy for the weekend. yeah And it is going to be very in -depth and serious because we are academics in the background. I swear to God. We've got at least two degrees between us.
Speaker: well true are serious scholars talking about serious subjects serious business no fun allowed i mean i'm looking up at my wall and i mean i've got them oh shit it's falling down oh oh no Oh, I can hear the gesturals in the walls again. They're scurrying around like rats.
Speaker: They're in the walls. They're in the goddamn walls! I swear to God, this is going to be a very serious discussion. Because that's the thing. Again, this is something I love about Chat Tsunami. It's like, much like Clear Obscure, or maybe Scrubs is another app description. It's like, on the one hand - Do you know where we are right now? We didn't have to do this episode, did we?
Speaker: Where did I go wrong? Oh, still recording. I think I made half the millennial audience, like, cry at that. Myself included, honestly, fantastic show. But one half, it can be, you know, hilarity, we're laughing about something. And then the other half are like, right, let's put on our scholar glasses here and take a deep dive into the particular topic. And of course, today we are going to be talking about the great, the wonderful, and maybe the slightly bizarre of Claire Obscure, Expedition 33, Enfant C. I'll leave the Enfant C.
Speaker: after these messages Welcome to Chatsanami, a Scottish variety podcast that discusses topics from gaming and films to anime in general interest. Join me, your host, Satsanami, as well as the rest of our Chatsanami team for our takes on these very important pop culture topics. Sir, it's clearly a trap. I accept your fate! That happens three times in the film. Every time that general goes, don't do this one thing, he goes... Do you know what I'ma do? That's exact.
Speaker: That did well. She had the pointy teeth. What was that about? She looked like Bilbo when he wants the ring back. She turned into... I just want the lightsaber one more time. Parasite says, no, you will get back into your office and work. No, says the man in Zoom. your Trousers are for the working man. You're bursting into your hotel room. Honey, we need to go.
Speaker: Leave the kids! You can milk an oddish! Oh
Speaker: That's the worst thing you've ever said on any of the episodes. If that sounds like your cup of tea, then you can check us out at our website, chatsanami .com, as well as all good podcast apps. As always, stay safe, stay awesome, and most importantly, stay hydrated. Stay classy and have a good one. This has been Satsanami. I'm sorry.
Speaker: First impressions can take only six seconds to make. But if you're neurodivergent, those quick judgments about you can be misleading. Because of most people's ignorance around learning disabilities, people think it means you're intellectually incapable. I'm not Rain Man. Every autistic person isn't Rain Man. I thought I was talking to people who understood dyslexia and ADHD, but they did not. They freaked out and were like, well, if you've got Tourette's, if it's going to be a problem, then we can just fire you and get someone else.
Speaker: I'm Carolyn Keel, and I host Beyond Six Seconds. a podcast where neurodivergent people share their lives and advocacy. One of my goals is making autism not something that's scary.
Speaker: I really want to help people understand dyspraxia a little bit better. Get the real life of Tourette syndrome out there. Stop thinking we were nothing but a joke. Let's shatter misconceptions and celebrate neurodiversity together.
Speaker: Listen at beyond6seconds .net.
Speaker: or wherever you get your podcasts. And that's a great I got, Wonko. Oh, I can see why getting through Paris was tricky. That's why you had to go through the sewers. Oh, yeah, now I get it. Now I get it. I had to hunchback that shit. Straight out of Notre Dame, baby. How am I going to clarify that story? Well, sign up to the Patreon to find it. No legal reasons, that's a joke. No, jokes aside, we are indeed back and we are going to be diving into the wonderful world of Clear Obscure Expedition 33. so before we go on you know the drill guys you better it's the 300th episode we are indeed going to be diving into further spoilers for expedition 33 including the ending so contentious endings if you somehow listened to last week and you thought oh it's fine i'll watch a walkthrough or play through it this is your opportunity go listen to the other 299 episodes and you'll somehow still be able to catch up with the game but before we go on i've got a very imperative question that i need to ask you before we dive into this how worried should i be about this question no no no this is academic satsu this is like satsu with the round glasses and then books that i'll never read on the background and the dust between my lungs but what were your initial thoughts see when you went from start to finish you played this game and you went through the whole story were you happy with the story with the way and that's a very loaded question but how did you feel did you feel quite positive about it negative of yeah what was your reaction it was complicated i think was what i would say there was just such a mix of emotions i mean i mentioned to you in the catch -up episode that we did when i was done with act two massive incredible twist that happens at act two i was so gobsmacked i had to go downstairs and pour myself a drama whiskey to find the courage to just put down the controller it was such an emotional gut punch not what i was expecting at all because as martin mentioned last week it plays with the cliches and it plays with the cliches so well the end of act two you arrive home as the conquering heroes yes members of the expedition has fallen but they continued on and then you realize just how badly you have
Speaker: Everything up. and it races in and there is a second gommage for everyone. And my God, you never saw it coming. At least not for the first playthrough. In the second playthrough, I've been told, because I haven't had the courage to go back and do a second playthrough yet. Clues are all there. If you found the journals, if you've done the side quests, you know that something feels off. Because yes, it is a triumphant return. They've even brought back Monoko and Esquier. So Jester and Esquier. I was waiting for you to, you know, describe that. I was like, how are you going to do it? Describe Esquieu. Esquieu. Esquieu is Esquieu. Esquieu is Esquieu. Give him a rock, he'll be fine. Or two or three. But, you know, these mythological creatures, the stuff of legend that are now standing there, but it's very desaturated. It's not full of vibrancy like Lumière was in the prologue before the first gommage, before, you know, everyone who was 34 disappeared and 33 was drawn on the monolith by the paint dress. Something was very clearly wrong. You felt it, but you didn't know what, and you were spellbound and helpless to stop it, to see every... one including my at the very end get gommaged and where do we go from there and then act three starts it's based on a three -act structure very classic sort of storytelling method but i think it works incredibly well all the things you said running through my head like so many things to say about that but i think what martin said last week like the game it respects you it's not gonna handhold you it doesn't do any shit eating god -awful marvel tier quips or anything it respects you it respects its characters it takes itself seriously there is such an amazing verisimilitude and grounding for everything. Yes, it is fantastical. We have a mix of labellipok and magic and painting and words fail sometimes, you know? Words fail when it comes to trying to describe it. But all these things come together in such an amazing mix. And it is just so self -contained. It brings you along, absolutely spellbinds you. And there's so much to dig into. If you want, you can just run through because the gameplay and the music and the characters and the voice acting by themselves are excellent. But if you want, they've thought about Every little aspect. There is so much to dig into. Some little stories here and there that have so much character and bring so much to the world. It is absolutely fascinating. You know, people talk about lightning in a bottle. The most recent one I can think of before Claire Obscure. Arguably Helldivers. And then they broke the bottle trying to let the lightning out. With Claire Obscure, absolute lightning in a bottle. And I'm kind of terrified of seeing where they go from here. Because no matter what they do, it's going to be held up to the game of the year for 2025. Possibly one of the greatest games of the decades. and an absolute love letter and perfect revamp of everything that makes jrpgs great and doing my preparation listening to videos and stuff people started calling it especially the french they started calling it a jrpg you know like j the verb to have uh -huh very funny but it's like it is sort of its own beast it learns it's seen further from standing on the shoulders of giants but i got nothing i'm waving my cigarette my coffee one wildly it's ah man I think what the biggest testament to this is, and this is going to be the wildest comparison I've probably made in a while, but you know Christmas songs? So you know how if you make a successful Christmas song and then it enters the rota of songs you listen to and you go, that is a Christmas song. You know, it can stand and with Mariah Carey's one or Wham or whatever or Shaken Stadium. Where are we going with this? The reason I say it is because it's like the RPG genre and especially the JRPG genre is one that is so prolific in terms of, you know, the old guard. Like you've got the Final Fantasy things, you've got your Pokemon, which I know is not to the same standard, but you've got this wealth of different titans in the genre. So you could have one that is, yeah, it's all right and it does what an RPG does, but you don't really consider it. it to be like the titans or yeah whereas with expedition 33 whether you love it or you hate it the fact is this made an amazing and catastrophic and i mean not know the best terms like just such a massive impact into the genre so much so that you could say i mean even martin last week said oh if he was going to recommend any final fantasy game he would recommend clear obscure yeah yeah the gameplay is on point like i said the quality of life is excellent it still respects all the main traditions or cliches of jrpgs but it's also completely its own beast and it tries to innovate as well the parrying and the dodging during combat it's an absolutely excellent example it gives you agency when previously there was none video games are based entirely or they're supposed to be based entirely on player agency so you give them that and it just something extra the presentation is already fantastic then you have all these extra elements some new some old all good you know a major problem especially because recently the godforsaken Halo campaign evolved has come out and what's good in it isn't new and what's new in it isn't good. Whereas with Claire Obscure, it's all good, baby. I mean, that's true. As someone who played it and then immediately, what's the word, erased it from the canvas? Gommage. Gommage. I mean, I said that last week, but I couldn't believe and I was kicking myself for asking you when I was like, Wonko, what's the gommage? And you're like, it means erasure. And I was like, oh, oh no. That sounds bad. What do you mean it's the day of the gommage? Oh, oh no. I was texting you through tearful eyes. I was like, I don't want Sophie to go. Like, we'll get used to it. Yeah, it ain't getting any easier from here. But it was so well done. Gustav goes down, gives a rose to Sophie, slightly awkward, slightly charming. They walk on, they meet Sophie's friend. She starts having a go at Sophie for not having kids because that was a whole point of contention between Gustav and Sophie. Gustav wanted kids, Sophie didn't because that's a very interesting moral dilemma. What do you do when every... Every year, the lifespan of humans goes down by one year unstoppably. Do you raise a kid and try and give them the best life you do? Or do you try and conserve resources in a more utilitarian manner? Or do you try and fight off the paintress and the monolith and anything else that's causing the gommage and then bring them into the world? Just a very interesting, very mature. And, you know, there's both sides to the argument. And then very maturely, Sophie just says, look, I don't want to talk about this right now. It's the day of my gommage. I'd rather, you know, we leave on good terms. And then the friend says, no, you're completely right, Sophie. I'm really sorry. It was just so... mature which is something we don't usually see usually writers tend to use a character as a mouthpiece and jam their opinions down their throat you can agree with their opinions you can not agree with their opinions but they are there you're being talked down to you're being lectured it's like this is bad thing this is good thing no in clear obscure it was just things two different points of view two things really struck me as a very mature scene something that's getting rarer and rarer nowadays i find the quality of writing going down the shitter because the damn kids today they can't You have never sounded so old in your life. These damn kids with their fortnights and their tech talks. Hey, I'd already be dead in Claire Obscure Land, so I'm allowed to, goddammit. I mean, yeah, same. That's beside the point. Yeah, no, you're completely right, though, because one thing that I do love about the themes of this game is they treat it with such reverence. And don't get me wrong, you do get silly moments and jokey moments and moments that I feel as though... You have to to break the tension, to be fair. Yeah, yeah it's not like Misery 24 -7, but when they hit you hard, they hit you with a mallet. They just go... Oh, no, and and and it hits every single time. You think the first act twist can't be done with... the dramatic, the sacrifice of Gustav to save Mael on the cliffs. And then, oh, who's this dickhead Versa? And then, oh, what the f***?
Speaker: just happened at the end and then the absolute crescendo that ironically is just two people fighting two estranged quote -unquote family members fighting for the fate of a world and a person and that is something that's really interesting about the characters of clear obscure because you can actually split them up into two and i think the creator of the game pointed out that he drew inspiration from attack on titan at least for the uniforms and everything Really? Yeah, as somebody who also drew inspiration for his own works, I completely agree with that. Honestly, Attack on Titan was just so formative in the way I was like, that is so cool. I must pay homage to it. So what you're saying is you like giant naked men running at you? Only on a Saturday, but that's the point. You can't shame me here. The soundtrack has to be good. Only if it's in French, you know. Any other day it's like, I don't know. That's a bit gauche. Good luck explaining this to the podcast awards. And scene. But no, all joking aside, it was interesting to see how you can split the cast into two camps. Those in the know and those who are way off base, which of course are the people of Lumiere and the whole world as a whole, which is such a fantastic world that they build up. You know, you've got all of these fantastical elements. This is one of my favourite types of world building. where you've got such just fantastical landscapes and fantastic... Vibrancy as well. Because, I mean, for a city called Lumiere, it's like a paradox of a city because the whole story, as you were saying there and I said last week, the whole story focuses on a group of people called expeditioners and every year that they send a new team out to go beyond the lands of Lumiere to go onto the continental mainland to try and save their world and restore what was before. And for a town called Lumiere, and correct me if I'm wrong, that is French for light, isn't it? It is French for light, it is, yes. I watch Beauty and the Beast. See my vest. See my vest made of real gorilla chest. Anyway, oh, love that parody. Anyway, some such references are aside, there's like three of those episodes. All good ones too. Yeah, exactly. But, you know, Lumiere, you think, yes, it's the city of light, which ironically enough it is because it's based in Paris. But it's such a paradox because for... a city of light it is their safe haven it's a refuge it is their literal light their lumiere yes it is then you look in the distance and i mean other than seeing the woman hunched over a big monolith that is very concerning but you know you see the eiffel tower which is distorted it's and you have the eiffel tower that is completely bent sideways by some massive unseen force something clearly massive has gone on that has absolutely shattered the landscape or fractured as the case may be yeah and again and as a game that makes you want to learn more about this world it's not like a unity engine asset swap where it's like oh yeah we've got this weird thing floating in the air and we've got this and there are things floating in the air don't get me wrong but there's a reason and it makes sense in context exactly yeah yeah because you see these huge creatures once you get into the mainland called neverland you've got this mystery about this person who is fairly older but has survived the gamage you've got mystery you've got intrigue it's very twin peaks -esque it is david lynch and i'll give you that much it definitely is at times you're like what the hell is that like especially the first time i came across a mime i was like going what a beautiful day what the
Speaker: What the f*** is that? It twitches and it makes weird noises and I must kill it now and it actually can fight back pretty well. It's got a banging soundtrack, though. It's got a banging soundtrack. The best use of an accordion since ever, I think. And also... What do the accordions do to you, man? Try living in France for 17 years. Is that really a thing? Is that like bagpipes here? No. Barely see them, especially nowadays. There's so many ordinances against busking and stuff. Not after the incident. Not the incident. The bagpipe incident. anyway sewer accordions aside yes sorry but also they actually put up quite a bit of a fight and it's just you have this absurd thing where you have two to three heavily armed weary looking but tough as nails adventurers trying to beat up this mime which is actually doing a good job of defending itself surprisingly enough and also just my john expedition my gustav my expedition 33 immediately had something against mimes and i vowed to not rest until the lands of old lumiere and everything was driven from the mime menace because there's a mime in the prologue some people find him some people don't i did i didn't i was still getting the hang of the combat so the mime beat me and you have this incredibly embarrassing scene where sophie just goes oh la la gustave and you have your ex -girlfriend who's about to die today pulling you away from a mime that just beat the crap out of you when you instigated the fight and i'm like next time next time you're dead that is an amazing mental image it's like i will get you next time yeah so i reloaded a save got up and pawned him it's like you're that jojo's bizarre adventure it's like you're drinking the wine. I didn't just kill the mime men, but the mime women and the mime children as well. Do people say that in France? We might never know. It's incredibly cliched, honestly. Yeah, I suppose it's like Wunderbar in Germany. No, I'm fat and full of chocolate. Oh, fantastiche! There's a lot of clichés. I mean, speaking of clichés, Gustave is a fairly clichéd French name, whereas Maëlle and Sophie are actually fairly common. I met plenty of Sophies, as I mentioned. There was a few Maëlles in university. You do get the feeling, you know, that someone with a name like Gustave or Alicia or, well, Renoir is almost a prestige name. You have to, you know... You have to earn it. You have to earn it, yeah. I mean, Pierre -Auguste Renoir, one of the best painters that France has to offer. But it's just so evocative as well, jumping around from Lumière, but you find out that... there's La Famille des Cendres and they are the painters and they are in a war against the writers tell me more it's fascinating absolutely fascinating maybe it's just me but I love the mundane fluff pieces that you get in video games I love that stuff and Claire Obscure just had so much of it there's so much to soak up if you want but if you don't you can just continue on with the game do you know what it reminded me of and it's something that's done also fantastically in this game but see Bioshock yes where you have the audio logs and things and don't get me wrong you can play the game you can enjoy and everything, you heretic. But if you want to learn more, and it's just done in such an amazing way, where it interlinks with what you're doing, it fleshes out the world and everything. It adds poignancy, it adds mystery, it adds intrigue. I went scouring for these audio logs through clear obscure. Oh, they were fantastic. I think Bioshock's a good comparison, actually, definitely. The storytelling, the fact it kind of slipped under the radar, it wasn't a proper AAA, well, maybe Bioshock was, arguably, but also the underwater zones, the music, the characters. The incredibly charismatic antagonist whose reasons you can understand why he's doing what he's doing. Well, eventually. Eventually. Before I was crying like, we'll find a way to kill him. A painter chooses, a writer obeys. Thank God the French never found out who Ayn Rand was. It would have been a completely different game. Is a painter not entitled to the paint on their canvas? No. Next question. They had more than enough philosophers to pull from, to be fair. Oh my God, yeah, we'll get into that, but they had so many. We were doing the research, and I know you've got so many notes on this as well, but the amount of philosophical musings that you and I had when we were talking about this. It's fascinating stuff. gives rise to so much because maybe we should mention the themes but clear obscure definitely a thing about grief i would say existentialism fate sort of divinity or gods maybe that's the wrong words the idea is there yeah i suppose faith is an apt one you know the belief in something else like and again we'll get into more in depth later but that idea of simulacra where it's like the faith and what you want to believe versus reality exactly yeah and it's such a fast you're completely right grief is the major one grief is enormous because the main twist of this game and there's something we briefly touched on last week but the whole idea being that the whole canvas you learn eventually is nothing more than a made -up world it is a coping mechanism for the people who painted it and you eventually find out the one of the characters who i must admit i hated them to begin with but i grew to love them that matt berry look -alike
Speaker: Oh, no! Mon père!
Speaker: But you find out that in reality, there are these creators called painters, as you mentioned before, and they have the ability to create these canvases that they can jump in. I mean, I made the comparison that it's a bit like Super Mario 64. And of course, Martin brought up that it's like the Lego movie as well, that this whole world that you find out in Act 3 is not real. You've been playing through this and this is very much a Marmite twist. It's either you love it or you hate it personally. I love these kind of stories about simulated realities and things. I'm an absolute sucker for it. What is reality? Is this real? Is this hyper real? I mean, it's real to me. Isn't that enough? There's a lot of philosophical ground you can cover with that. And it's absolutely fascinating for that reason. Just looking through my notes, I guess salvation and sacrifice, I would say those are also some major themes dealing with grief, obviously, and kind of tied into that the idea of fixation or obsession. I mean, it's this' just it's so rich. It's so French. where they combine, you know, genuine warmth and human interaction with almost inhumane cruelty and emotional gut wrenches. It's very, very well done in that regard. Oh no, 100%. And it does, it makes you question what you're actually doing in this world. Because it's not a case of, you know, like Sonic, for example. Oh, you're in this world. You have to stop the evil Dr. Robotnik or Mario. Oh, you have to stop Bowser and everything. You know, it's not as cut and dry as... you've got a villain you've got a hero because by the end of it you do learn that oh my god there is so much more to this than i actually thought there would be they know what they have to do but the gaping void between mean those two objectives is like the only way they can find out is by taking the plunge into the unknown and continuing onwards what excellent ludonarrative it is oh great term i love it no ludonarrative dissonance here none of that nonsense for us thank you no maladaptive daydreaming you say oh
Speaker: I'm going to get you to talk about that. It's quite an interesting meta commentary, I have to say. And it's something we've talked about before when we briefly touched on things like Spec Ops The Line, where, and again, spoilers for Spec Ops The Line, amazing game. But, you know, you play as a soldier and you play this very generic, oh, Call of Duty -esque, oh, you're fine from point A to B, hoorah, that kind of thing. And then you get to a certain turning point that makes you question absolutely everything. And it's the same in this game. It makes you stop. It makes you think and go, why am I doing this? Have I made a good decision? Am I a good person? Am I doing the right thing? Are we the baddies? Should I continue in some cases? You learn eventually as just one big grief simulator, but in the best way possible. And that is the thing, because you spend all that time with these characters and you've got to make a decision whether or not you're going to treat this as a game and then think, oh yeah, I'm going to save the people who I've been with this entire time. Or are you going to accept the better reality that much like the game itself, none of this is real it reminds me of a term called you know animism yes I've heard of animism in any case. Might be a while. So I remember when I was studying religion in university, we had to discuss this topic of animism, which is essentially putting a human tree onto an inanimate object. And I can't remember who it was exactly, but there was a story where it was a guy telling his children a story about a broom that was left outside. And he was basically saying, you know, oh, this broom, it was cold outside. It was shivering and everything. Oh, should we bring the broom back in? Oh, the poor broom. Yeah, the children were very sympathetic, which is probably a good thing, to be quite honest. They were like, yeah, bring the broom inside. And he was very dismissive, saying, it's just a broom. It doesn't have feelings. But that's the thing. It's projecting those kind of thoughts and feelings and human qualities onto something that doesn't really exist. I mean, humans are always hardwired to do that. Our brains are recognizing patterns from, you know, saber -toothed tigers to potentially new sources of food. But we also assign moods to items that we like. Like, oh, my computer, my faithful old war horse. Or, oh, the bloody thing won't start again if it's a car, usually. And when you're talking about animism, obviously, three years in Japan, the first thing that immediately jumped to my mind was Shinto or Kami no Michi. Everything has a kami. Everything has this spirit that you can venerate that is there, that is worthy of veneration, that is worthy of respect. So in a utilitarian way, the Japanese people, with the idea of the kami, it makes sure that you take care of everything. Everything is immaculate because everything is worthy of respect because everything is inhabited by this kami. And, you know, you also have the... if you don't venerate it if you don't respect it it becomes vengeful items like umbrellas can become animated by a bad kami and they can hunt you down and kill you you know if you don't take care of them so there's the moralizing aspect but there's also the animism and the humanizing aspect which is fascinating and once again absolutely what you were saying with the broom kind of thing it's just a broom yeah but it's real to me to quote the force unleashed it was real to me yeah but that's exactly it it's that idea of when you learn the twist that none of this is real it's like but you gotten so attached to these characters and there is honestly so many examples of that especially in gaming which i absolutely love when they dive into this concept so the major three that i thought of off the top of my head you know you've got soma which deals with a lot of existentialism that although you're technically a copy of someone who again spoilers for soma but you're a copy of someone who died a long ago but then what constitutes as the quote -unquote real you you know if you're going on to another body but then you're technically copying yourself so which one is the ship of theseus exactly but you know you've got ones like soma you've got that one level with lewis and what remains of edith finch when he's daydreaming that he is the king of a faraway land even though he works on a very mundane canary job that's so heartbreaking that level but you know he has a sense of mal again going back to that term maladaptive deed where he dives right into that fantasy same as soma to an extent like it is real but at the same time it's that delusion that they believe they're the real versions of themselves again with alice madness returns amazing game but that is also a key example of maladaptive daydreaming where to cope with the horrors of her life alice ends up diving into this world of wonderland where she has power and everything but when she goes to the real world she finds out she's completely helpless and everything and i feel as if almost alice and in a way my elf they have a lot more in common than you might think there's a lot of overlap well not just that but alicia is an old version of alice like a french version of alice so there is that connection and obviously the guys who wrote expedition third well the main writer was jennifer svenberg yen i think but she did an excellent job so there's no way she wasn't aware of that parallel i think and they do tend to be fairly coy about it but you can definitely see that yeah it is quite interesting to see those parallels And again, as you said, it's probably subconsciously they've thought, all right, we've got these similar ideas. But it's that idea of, because to jump ahead a wee bit, you do find out that Mael and Alicia are essentially one and the same. They're both the same character, technically. Alicia is the real version of Mael in reality. And when she goes into the canvas, she's unfortunately reborn as Mael and she has this new lease of life. She's not cursed with... the physical detriments that she has in real life. She's not crippled. She's not blind in one eye. She's not disfigured, definitely. But I disagree, just to make things interesting. Yes, Mael and Alicia are two sides of the same coin, I would argue. But I would say that Mael died at the end of Act 2. And after that, there is only Alicia. Because to me, it was so striking. Like, we know how Mael acts. We know how Mael talks. He's a 16 -year -old girl. She really loves Gustav. She was really torn up by his dying. Not quite sure about Verso, but she tries to do the right thing. And she tries to keep... going and she wants revenge what mayel is is fairly well established by that point but also it's the idea that she came from nothing she didn't know her parents she was an orphan she bounced around from how from home to home until gustav and emma his sister i think he's a sister but they took her in they gave her a home and then when she is gonna when mayel is gonna imagine doesn't exist anymore and alicia wakes up then it's completely alicia because the very opening act of act three when well okay so first of all there's a bit in the real world in the descent manor and you can see Renoir and Aline in the painting fighting about it and Claire eventually helps Alicia get back in to try and break the deadlock but then she reappears in Lumiere that's been gommaged there's just Verso who's once again heartbroken and alone and very depressed and then she pops up and she just says oh we can go and see papa and that just jerked me back so hard Mael does not talk like that I do not recognize you you are different you are now Alicia you are a Pintresse you have the Pintresse power like it was already starting to crack when the curator Praetor helped her gommage the painted Renoir in the climactic boss battle of Act 2. It's like, okay, now something's seriously wrong. But now, Mael is no more. There is only Alicia. There is no Dana, only Zool, if you will. Zool. But that's how I saw it. Skipping ahead a bit, when it comes to the argument, people say, oh, you know, you can't erase a canvas full of people. They're real. It's like, yes, I know they're real, but they have been erased. And the philosophical idea of what happens after death is terrifying. It's something we all grapple with. It's something that philosophy and religion has been built around to try and help us. It's something we will never know until the final moments, which is absolutely terrifying, which is a cessation of consciousness and whatever happens next, right? But I was horrified when Verso helped Alicia bring back It's like, imagine dying and then being brought back. It's either you have the memories of your final moments, which is absolutely horrifying, or your memories have been modified to not remember that, in which case someone has changed the most deepest part of yourself. And both of them are bad things to me. This is not an ideal philosophical situation we are having ourselves. It's something that I think a lot of people seem to try and simplify with this, especially if you go into the subreddit for it. Expedition 33 or any online discourse where they go, oh, Mael's, you know, ending is the true ending or oh, Vergil's is the true end. We'll definitely deep dive into that in a minute, but I feel as if there's no real, don't get me wrong, personally for me, I think there is a slightly better ending. Better ending, but not great. But this is the beauty of it. I can see where both are coming from. I mean, quoting my Star Trek here, it's like the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or even the one. Yeah, but that's the thing. Does that apply in this case when the many aren't real? I can turn it around again. It's like, so the needs of the many refer to the Mael ending, which is, for me, the incorrect one. But what if you were told that, oh, but by erasing this canvas, we can create 100 more. So now the needs of the many many are outweighing the needs of your many. So you can argue about it a lot, you know? Because, yeah, that's the thing. It's like you could argue, oh, they could just paint another canvas. But then it's like, if you repaint Gustav, He's not your Gustav. Exactly. If you repaint Sophie, she's not your Sophie. She's not your Luni, not your CL. You know, it's like there are so many layers to it. Yes, Verso says you can call on the chroma and the impressions. It's not a versamilitude. It's something like a line, not a versamilitude. You can like recreate the essence. But is that truly them? Is that them? The ship of Theseus. If you haven't heard the ship of Theseus, imagine you buy a boat and you have to keep replacing it. You have to replace the mast. You have to replace the boards. You have to replace the oars. You have to replace the metal things. At the end of like a few years, you've completely replaced the whole boat is it the same boat or is it a new boat the same thing we can argue philosophically is about ourselves our cells regenerate go through apoptosis die and are replaced the longest lasting ones i think our hair does about two years is our bones or our neurons do about seven years but at the end of those seven years all the cells that make up your body have been replaced by new cells but you're still the same right or have you changed or how has knowing this impacted you it is so fascinating and there is so much philosophical depth and breadth you can have with this and the fact that it's presented in such a way where you can see the arguments for both sides it's really well done it's really really well done i used to have debates like this with my good friends back in university over a cup of tea at like one o 'clock in the morning it was just on dark souls or our speculation whereas clear obscure really gives you a lot to work with which is absolutely fascinating because i mean speaking of philosophers and this is totally not me segwaying into yes i did study religion at university i also studied history i just want to point that out but religious history some might say yeah yeah call me call me they really overlapped and i'll see you just no One of the philosophers, of course, that popped up when I was studying this subject, and it's probably such a milquetoast philosopher to bring up here. When I bring up these philosophers, I'm not bringing it up to be like, oh, look how smart I am. But one that really stuck out, and especially for this, was the philosopher Jean Baudrillard. Jean Baudrillard. He brought up the idea, and I've actually got the book Simulacra and Simulation. Oh, nice. This is going to be the keynote version of his hypothesis here, but... His proposal was that there is four stages of this. So the idea of simulacra is the idea of something that is a copy that depicts things that doesn't have an origin or no longer has something original to base itself off of. It's like it's so far removed from the original that it's a completely different thing on its own. Whereas a simulation, much like The Matrix or any other, is like a representation of something. Something real is the imitation of a real world process or a system or something like that. So I have the four stages of the simulacra being number one, reality. Number two, masking reality. Number three, masking the absence of reality. And number four is pure simulacrum. So if that makes it a bit more condensed. Because that's what I said to you. I'm like, if I understand this correctly, because it's been so long since I've actually, you know, gone into it. So you've got the four stages of you've got the faithful copy of reality, as you said, then you. You've got the demonization of reality. And then after that, you've got the third stage where the simulacra starts to take over as like the real reality that people believe in. And then eventually that becomes the simulacra, aka something that's based on something that doesn't have an origin. And it's just, I laugh at the one you provided where it's like, stage one, salmon. Stage two, salmon meat. Stage three, fish fingers. Stage four, sweets that look like fish. Pure simulacrum completely removed. i might jump on what you were saying when you first presented simulacra yeah a very very very common one it's given in fight club might be given in the matrix a simulacra is a copy without an original yeah i would amend that to say a simulacra is a copy without an original anymore it is a process there once was a salmon you know a proper salmon fish swimming in the water we know what salmon look like right yeah and then the meat so that's one step removed it doesn't have the shape of a salmon but we know it's still salmon it's still got the orange it's still got the marbling then we have a fish finger it tastes like fish but it's not salmon and it sort of looks like a fish but doesn't look like a salmon so now reality is almost completely gone it's a copy of a copy of an original and then when you throw in the fish gummy sweet that's completely removed that is its own thing in and of itself and i was also watching a quick video to make sure i understood it this morning as well can't remember the name of it but it was really good and she gave the example of once again the simulacra and the four steps so step number one reality is a pumpkin step number two moving away the demonization of reality which is a really cool term so step number two of the pumpkin is a pumpkin pie there's still pumpkin in it but it doesn't look like pumpkin and it's now it's got spices step three is a starbucks pumpkin spice latte now it has no pumpkin but it's only tied to the original of the original by the spices and then the pure simulacra that has never ever seen a pumpkin that is so far removed from a pumpkin it is its own self, is a pumpkin spice latte coffee creamer. So if that makes it any clearer for our listeners. That's actually really spot on. Relating it back to Expedition 33, it is that idea of you have the trappings of reality. You know, you've got the Eiffel Tower, you've got the Parisian architecture, you've got the accordions and the mics. You know, you've got all the French trappings of what you would think Paris was like. Ironically enough, a bit similar to, and again, I know we've criticised it, but you know the beginning of video. at sea part two for bioshock infinite yeah it's like one of the characters ironically enough they can go to different worlds and things she ends up at the very beginning imagining she's in paris and it's all very much idyllic it's idealized everyone's saying bonjour and everything and it's very caricaturesque at the same time you know something's not right about it because this isn't reality but obviously you don't know that at the beginning at the beginning you think all right why has Paris suddenly melted and why is, you know, the continent just this absolute mess of ideas, monsters, that kind of thing. And then you realise this isn't the representation of Paris anymore. You can even go one step further and say that this is almost the descent into this idea of madness and grief intertwining with one another. Because the whole concept, going back to this idea of grief, if you don't mind me saying, is, and this is why I love the theme, because it is this love ballad that initially just sounds like any other kind of, oh, it's a cool boss battle theme and everything. It's epic. You've got the chorus. You've got the male and female vocals battling it out against one another. But then you realise there's just so much more to it. And when you translate it, you realise it isn't just this cool theme. It's two grieving parents who are just trying to snap sense into one another. And I mean, we've all been through our own version. versions of grief through our lives. I mean, you and I are at that stage in our lives where we have gone through that. People are starting to die. Yeah, you're like, hmm, all my favourite celebrities are dead. A pop -up book. It is really, again, it's depressing, of course, but in a way that is the ultimate reality. You know, we joke about that a lot throughout the years. We've said, you know, the reality is death, taxes and chants and army will always continue. But the fact is, death is a universal constant. It's like, as of this episode, unless somehow they find a cure to it, as it were, there's no way out of death. And that is a horrible thing to say, I know. But it is this thing that has to be accepted. And unfortunately, no one is going to accept it, of course, because it is such a hard thing to process that you spend so much time with someone you love, whether it's a friend, whether it's a family member, no matter who it is. And you spend all that time. And I heard someone describe it as this. I thought it was a beautiful way to put it, that grief is the price to pay for caring too much about someone. And that is, that just shows that you've cared about someone so much, they've left such an impact that it has hurt you in that way. And in this case, Aline, who is the mother of the de Sandler family, who are the painters responsible for creating this world and everything, she does not want to give up the last remnants of her son, who, as you mentioned before, there's another faction called the writers. who, again, you don't really learn much about them. And that is such a cool thing because I like the fact that they keep them in the background. Be evocative. Don't tell us anything about it. Don't over -explain. Don't even show us anything. Just the writers. Discuss. Exactly. Thank you, English class. But that's the thing. It's like they're in the background, but Aline has no desire. Ironically enough, even though her daughter, not Mael slash Alicia, but her other daughter, Clea, who has been going on this. somewhat battle in reality with the painters but you never really see that you just hear about it and her parents kind of denounce that but Aline I would argue anyway is probably the hardest hit by it because she refuses to move on she literally becomes a character in her own son's fantasy as the paintress and initially you think oh right she's the villain and that is such a heartbreaking moment when you finally get to the monolith and you're like yeah let's attack her and she doesn't she just she takes it but there's no damage being done to her and you find out because she was the only one who was preventing the gamages from happening in a widespread manner because once she's gone that frees up the real renoir who initially had been trapped underneath the monolith and he just wants to erase the canvas he wants to move it on and i love that dynamic because it's and again i know that sounds very macabre and you know very morbid but i love it in the sense of it is so real and so human because you get so many people who don't understand how grief works you know we've all been through our different versions of grief you know we've lost loved ones we've lost relatives people we've known even in that kind of parasocial way you know your favourite celebrity or your favourite performer or whatever and you lose them you get hurt by their loss and everything and people deal with that in a very very different way and you get people who are frustrated like oh it's been years Years or days or whatever. Some people do genuinely say that's horrible. But you get people say, oh, it's been, you know, so long since this person died. Get over it. And they lash out and they get angry, especially in this case, because Renoir is so close to the fire, as it were, because he's also lost his son. He's also gone through exactly the same thing as Aline. You know, he's got a daughter who is horribly disfigured because of this incident. He's got a son who is no longer there. And he loved his son. but he cannot deal with the fact that he's going to lose his wife because of this. And he wants to just brute force her out of the painting, but he can't overcome her powers because her powers are the greatest of, arguably, the de Sondre family in terms of the way she paints and everything. And it is just so heartbreaking, essentially. It's heartbreaking to see this dynamic. And going back to that, when you hear the song Envie de Mer, it is just, honestly, you listen to it with a new perspective when you listen to how the song is transcribed. Translated, this isn't a song about, oh, I'm gonna be the bad guy. You know, it's not that. Rolling around at the speed of sound. Crush 40, we love you. You know, it's not that. It's a desperate plea. Obviously, musically, but the two, I forget their names, but they are literally, musically, in the most melodious way possible, they are screaming at each other, je t 'aime. There are lines, stop painting, I will always paint. Lâche ce pinceau qui t 'es étoile. Drop this. paintbrush get out of the canvas because the other aspect that makes Renoir desperate to get Aline out is that she is dying it is killing her yeah be in the canvas for all their powers. Renoir makes a point of saying we cannot inhabit a canvas forever. We can stay there a bit, but we cannot spend long times. And she is, you know, collapsing at the very climax before the final boss fight against Renoir. He shows Aline in real life and she's just like staggering around the room and falling over. She's clearly not well. You know, the painting and the grief have both taken a massive toll on her, but the grief has torn her up so much that she is willing to throw away her life for the fleeting. comforts of a painted version of her son. Grief is, I have to, you know, jump on what you were saying. Think back to three, four years ago and look at how the United Kingdom lost its collective mind as it grappled with the grief of the death of Queen Elizabeth II. People started acting very strange out of grief. All of a sudden, I was in Japan and it still took me aback as to how it affected me. I didn't think it would, but it did. It was like, oh, someone was there. I didn't necessarily like the queen. I don't consider myself or my family a royalist in particular. But you could see how people were trying to handle this grief, how some were doing well, how some weren't. Some lashed out, some bottled it up. There is no right or wrong answer to deal with grief. You just have to make sure it's not all -encompassing and all -consuming, which is something that ties into Gustav, ironically enough. In my opinion, my thesis on the matter is that he is the most human and he has the healthiest way of dealing with loss out of any character. The descends go into a cycle of grief and a massive amount of self -destruction and they pull everything out. along with them whereas gustav deals with it he acknowledges the attachment but he doesn't let it consume him which is something that descenders haven't done the whole story of the descent is incredibly greek or norse i would say it's a family of godlike power everything up for the mortal people they have thrown everything in the air just by their lives they've messed it all completely up and the characters realize this as the stories goes on during the campfire scenes at one point verso with mael it's either the last or the second last he says point blank the cycle of grief the desson family has to end it is tearing everything else apart because that's what it does grief tears you up and you either tear yourself up you can try and deal with the pain in healthy ways or non -healthy ways substance abuse you can push things away we've seen people handle things for better or for worse you know what it looks like and you know what that person is going through they might lash out they might say something they might mean it or it's just they're in so much pain right now that that's their only way of dealing with it it's an incredibly personal subject it's an incredibly difficult subject to talk about. But I would say, sort of opening it out again from this, but Claire Obscure handles it fairly well. And another really interesting thing, although I'm far from the only one that spotted it, and most people do, but each of the members of the Descente family tend to represent an aspect of grief. So, you know, the classic five -cycle step of denial, bargaining, anger, depression, and acceptance. So I would strongly say that Aline is in denial because she's locked herself in the painted world. She refuses to get out. She refuses to face reality. I would say that Maya... slash Alicia is in the bargaining phase because that's what she does as well. She would do anything to get Gustave back. She would do anything to live in this world where she's not deformed, where she's not burnt, where she's not handicapped, where it's not her fault that Verso died. She was willing to fight her father. She's willing to fight Verso himself to stay in that painting. Then the next three become a bit harder. I would argue that clear is anger just because she's not there. She directs her anger outwards towards her forlorn or solo war against the writers. And then Renoir and Verso are tricky because there's arguments to be made for both that Verso is both. both in depression and acceptance, the same way that Renoir is both in depression and acceptance. Out of all the family dissonance, I would say that it's Renoir who sees the clearest because he is the solitary father figure desperately trying to hold his family together. I've already lost one son. I will not lose another kind of thing. Where at the same time where Mayel is saying, oh, you know, you don't have to destroy the painting. And you have some incredible poignant lines like Mon ange, ça va s 'arranger, mais pas comme ça. My angel, things will get better, I promise you. Not like this. So you have all that to think about. as well when it comes to the grief of Claire Obscure and the grief of the famille Descente but also you know Gustave handles grief very badly in the beginning as well he almost offs himself after the disastrous debarkation on the beach and he sees almost everyone die the expedition that he's been building up to all his life is a failure already and it's only Lune that comes in and you know has a kind word but also tells him to get up on continue we have a job to do kind of thing so grief almost drove Gustave our most grounded and human character to do something drastic as well what do you say Sats? to lie down after that i know you're completely spot on with that what i do find quite interesting and maybe i'm reading too much into it is how that sense of grief and despair and that nihilism also leaks into the other parts of the painting oh definitely because i mean you've obviously got the nevrons who if i remember correctly is it not claire or rather her painted version who is the one that makes up these abominations yeah because real claire painted over her painted version to just make Neverons. Yeah, and that's horrible. Oh, that was it, because Renoir needed her help to overcome Alina, who was the strongest painter. With the Neverons, they stopped the chroma from getting to the Pinterest, to Aline, so she became weaker, so she couldn't protect everyone. So that was why there was a countdown on the monolith, because she was trying... It was more of a cry for help, saying, I can only hold out this longer. Get your act together, rather than something unthinkingly cruel that was just visited on the people of Vumier, because there was a reason behind it. Because something that I found quite interesting, when there was... exploring the overworld and everything was you find these nephrons who are basically the size of mountains and everything, but they aren't attacking you. They're just eating the mountains. Yeah, they're hostile there. Yeah. So initially I was like, I wonder what their deal is. And I looked into it further and apparently, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think they're the ones, as you said, they're the ones trying to eat that extra chroma of the world. So they're essentially eating at the canvas, making Aline weaker until she can no longer be. in the canvas and it's essentially a war of attrition again that is not healthy for grief either to wait it out and hope that she'll just come out in their own accord because she is in so so deep into this pit of despair completely i think at some point during the fight against the painter so the end of act two it's like she goes to embrace verso and then she doesn't recognize him her grief is messing with her perception to that extent i think i'm not sure but yeah as i was saying you also have the characters with within the canvas, you know, the humans who also feel this despair, this absolute anguish and everything. They heard the tales of a world that is absolutely long gone. There's a cute scene where CL and Gustav find a Ferris wheel and CL kind of jokes with them and goes, oh, they used to have dates there or something, wasn't it? Yeah, it's like, oh, they used to have dates and he tongue in cheek says, oh, it was probably a way for them to get across, you know, the world, which I find hilarious, just that mental. I mean, just like, yeah, that's not happening. But again, he's very analytical when he needs to be and she's quite, again, I wouldn't say aloof, but all of them, and this is something I love about the island, is that the visages wear with the masks. So it's like you go to this particular island where the Axon essentially has three mini -bosses. So you have a mask of sadness, you have a mask of joy, and you have a mask of anger. And then eventually you fight the real Axon. To be fair, You don't have to fight the masks of anger, sadness and joy, but it makes things a lot easier if you do. Yes, I have to say, I accidentally skipped the mask of anger because I was like, all right, this is the way you're supposed to go. And it wasn't. I accidentally triggered the boss. There's an amazing scene at the very end of that where each character gets a mask slapped on the face, except for Minoko, which is hilarious. It just gets out of the way. But ZL gets a mask thrown at her and it hits her face and everything. And you'd expect... and her to go down but then she takes it off and she said this doesn't belong to me you know and she throws it down and she defeats the axon that's standing there and that is such a powerful moment because i think she's one of the prime examples of how grief has affected these characters oh completely yeah because i mean you find out later on that her husband i think I can't remember how, but he ends up dying. He was a farmer and it's like he was something stupid at work, wasn't it? Yeah. He got hit with a scythe or something. It's like something quite relative. Yeah, relatively mundane. It wasn't like he was an expeditioner or he wasn't, you know, fighting the Nevrons. It wasn't anything glorious that you'd expect. It wasn't a death in combat or being torn down by a pack of Nevrons or he wasn't even gommaged. He died before his gommage, which in the world built around this inevitable gommage. You know, you want to try and live your life to the best possible extent. That didn't happen for Paul. and that is so sad because throughout the story you find out that she's afraid of water but everyone's like but why and they never find out until one particular moment when she's talking to esky who during one of the camp conversations and she's like how do you know who i am how have we met before and the reason was because she was so overcome with grief because i think she loses her husband and am i correct in saying she loses her baby as well or something she was pregnant yeah she was pregnant as well she loses her baby as horrific and she decides to kill herself by swimming out into the middle of the ocean and just letting herself drown but SK and that made me tear up after when I heard that because he he was passing by almost wasn't he yeah no no he says he heard her oh he heard oh that was it yeah and it's choking me up just thinking about it because SK is such a ray of sunshine in this game he has a line earlier on in the game where he says sometimes life is wee and sometimes it's woo so you've got to balance out the we and the woo and everything and you may initially think oh that's quite a childish way to look at it but it's this kind of ray of light in an otherwise horrible horrible world where again as much as we joke saying oh haha it can't happen in the real world but we do have those moments of utter despair where we feel like you know figuratively and literally we feel as if we're drowning whether it's through despair through poor life choices and things it can be horrible for some people it can really grab you and pull you down and even people again coming to you saying ach it's fine or oh I'll make you a cup of tea and it's fine and they don't know how to manage you when it comes to that grief and again I'm not calling them out to say like oh you should know because nobody really understands how others are going to react to grief I mean I remember losing one of my relatives when I was younger and it was a sobering experience and everything but when I lost the next one I didn't want to talk to anyone I was very much a close people were coming over to check on the family and everything i honestly couldn't muster the energy or ironically enough the mask as it were to put on to be like yeah yeah you know it's terrible but it's fine i think now i'd probably be well again it depends on the person but again i don't understand that particular scenario but i can understand from an outsider's perspective of people who can't see the light at the end of the tunnel and it's people like sg or even and i'm speaking of the people out there who are going through grief and things that there is always going to be a person like esky and obviously not literally but that light in your life whether it's a friend a loved one relative whoever that may be there's always going to be one who is there to help you even if it seems like your darkest moment and that is what i adore about this particular scene because they could have easily had her as just a tragic character they could have had her just simply as oh she's the character who lost her baby lost her husband and she nearly drowned and that's where it ends but it's like no the reason she was rescued was that there was this light at the end of the tunnel despite her thinking that there was no light and because of that she becomes a pivotal part of the team to try and save their way of life and it's just as beautiful and again it's one of the many instances of this game where you're like this is incredible writing and it's something you brought up at the very beginning where you said about marvel writing and that kind of I think, where there are quips and things, don't get me wrong, but it's not to the same degree. It's like when they have these serious moments, they treat it with the reverence that it utterly deserves. They don't try to quip it or hand wave it away. They try to deal with it. And again, there's a particular part where Looney and Gustav are arguing with one another and Gustav essentially says, F the mission, you know, oh, F the mission. I'm saving my L or I'm getting her out of here. Yeah, he's just going to grab her. who's going to go back to his regular way of life. And Looney, she essentially turns around and says, the phrase is, when one falls, we continue. Not if. When. Yeah, no, it's a very, very powerful moment. Definitely. And I mean, that is the thing. You can extend that to real life. Obviously, we're not all fighting never -ons, but I mean, you could say we're fighting their own never -ons inside, but. They got me. Again, it's a lesson for life that even if we are struck with these moments, we still have to keep going. We still have to continue. The writing is just so powerful in it. But sorry, I have gone off the deep end rambling about grief there. No, it is good. You're speaking to someone who struggled mightily with depression. I almost offed myself as well. And yes, what you're saying is right. It's like, it's okay to feel overwhelmed. It's okay to want to not talk to anyone, but you can't stay there. Also, you have to let people in. want to help you they don't like seeing you like this they are upset to see you like this you mightn't be able to realize that in the depths of your utter despair but you do have people that care for you even if it's not immediately obvious i guarantee you they do you're much better in this world than not being there you bring something to them whether you realize it or not and that's just it you have to keep going it's just the way humans are wired even if it's not much like there were some days i'd be proud if i could get out of bed that was enough start with getting out of bed then look after yourself have a shower cut your nails then OK, let's read a book. Let's go outside. You can take it day by day, but you've got to keep moving, got to keep continuing. We continue. It's just a thing. And also another really interesting thing about Ciel and Esquieu is that Ciel seemed to have more of an affinity for Esquieu than anyone else. She was always interested by his legends, talks to him in French the first time they meet and stuff like that. But it's really, really clear in French. I have to remind you that Pierre is the French word for stone and Esquieu couldn't swim without his Pierre, his stone, and Ciel couldn't swim without her Pierre either. So it's really, really thematic. I'm going to genuinely have to lie down. That's tragic.
Speaker: It's really sweet though, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, that is so sweet. Oh my God.
Speaker: Sandfall, you've done it again, you geniuses. All the emotions of the 300th episode are coming out. And I mean, that does bring us to one of the major parts of this discussion. And it's something that you brought up earlier, of course, being the finale of this game. And it's something, you know, Martin tongue in cheek joked about saying, oh, I'm not going to tell you what I did. And I was like, yeah, but did you do what I think you did? And he's like, yeah, I did. I'm like, okay, I'm glad we're on the same page. But there are is a choice. at the end where you find out that the canvas isn't real you fight renoir and aline comes in to help you and it's such a cool moment you know she comes in you shouldn't be here ah but she came in to help renoir because love shone through they're still husband and wife they still love each other even though they disagree about how to handle grief or whatever it's a very very powerful scene it's just a shame that by that point my team was so powerful that i curb stomped them in two moves
Speaker: dawn no nope no no what are you doing here and you shouldn't be no none of that and she just punches is it celine the axon in the face remember when renmore summons the axon oh yes and she just comes out she's like nope i'm the pedros bam no it it is very cinematic incredibly cinematic because that actually and is it celine you know the axon it's like a siren or serene oh la siren sorry la siren because it's not something we talk from last week either, but you've got the Axons who are their bosses in their own right, but LaSelene is basically like a siren figure, you know? it hypnotizes them and and it provides them with a somewhat false sense of security i think that that particular part of the game encapsulates the canvas perfectly to be quite honest it's beautiful as vibrant as gorgeous and it lures you deeper and deeper into it things get a lot darker and a lot more sinister but you don't have to worry you don't have to think about all the bad stuff it's complete escapism it's like unconsciousness really you don't have to think about anything at all your adventure ends here but you'll be quote -unquote happy yeah and also it's the fact that Renoir painted that and it's a representation of Valine because the thing that marks out the axons is that there are representations of the Dessens family painted by certain members of the Dessens family but in this case Renoir painted La Sirène and if you once again it's more obvious if you speak French but the lyrics to the songs of La Sirène it's just someone lovingly describing their wife just lying there and how she's perfect and beautiful and wonderful kind of thing so you can really tell the emotion that they put in or that renoir in this case was put in for aline you know he might want to drag her out but this is how he really feels about her i was gonna say unlike the white sands where you've just got a french man doing slam poetry one of the worst parts of the game i hated it it's also so
Speaker: pretentious so what is so pretentious about that well hey slam poetry is a blight on society but the fact of the matter is the rhyming couplet that kept coming back was la lumière s 'éteint so the light goes out but also lumière goes out so oh aren't we being existential and up our own arses I hated that zone.
Speaker: hated it man I only went there because it had an audio log that I needed for the achievement and I never went back there ever again I absolutely jumped out my skin because I picked up what I had to and I was about to leave and it was like Lumiere whispered in my ear and I was like what the hell was that I'm like is there a French man in my house here what did Renoir mean by this
Speaker: What does this mean? And again, that's why I came to you, because obviously you are the French speaker of the Shatsunami team. But I was like, what does this mean? You were just like, don't, don't. You were drawing your own sword there. Bollocks. Yeah, white sands aside, as we were saying there, there is this land of utter darkness and danger, but then you've also got the vibrancy of it. You've got the bits that attract you and go, this is wonderful. Why wouldn't I want to stay here? You know, you've got the fantastical creatures like I compared to them to Klingons, the gestural zoo. And again, this goes to one of the themes that you brought up last week. And don't worry, I will get back onto the finale discussion in a second. But it's about this idea of faith and spirituality that... you wouldn't really expect because gesturals are very much a warrior or race a bit like saiyans and dragon ball they're like warhammer orcs they just like a good scrap they do oh i love that game but anyway again it's like samson's warhammer memes you know just on loop in the background but they bring up this idea that if a gestural dies in battle then they can get reincarnated all i can think of is the next generation episode where it helps the Klingons die honoring battle and then you just have the dead Klingons but yeah they get reincarnated but they also lose a part of themselves which again is such a wonderful parallel to Verso for example because Verso is this character who can never die because he is intertwined with the canvas if he dies he just keeps coming back and back again because he is almost the anchor for this canvas we kind of joked about it in the opening skit when it's like I'm tired you know and he has this discussion with his quote -unquote painted father as it were the doppelganger Renoir where he's like I'm tired you know family's complicated and everything and his father actually well his painted version of his father acts a lot like Aline where he's like oh we can live together as a happy family and you know it's like this idealistic version almost where it's like oh we can live together like the Brady Bunch we're gonna be fine he doesn't care about the inhabitants of Lumiere he just wants to keep his painted family together as best he can because obviously that he makes a point of saying that the painted Aline filled him with machety more du poma pao vati la what did you like like my punishment for not being there when it mattered it was it was it her pain that she gave painted Renoir or something yeah but that drove him to try and keep the family together at all costs which is understandable even when you look at the gestures in comparison it's like that idea of everybody if they die and they manage to somehow come back they are losing what makes them their original self. Verso, although he's got kind of cheeky and, oh, haha, aren't I a funny man, elements which I did not like that to begin with, but at the same time, it is just so poignant and heartbreaking when you realise that Verso is slowly losing who he is. A great example is when Minoko, who you initially think, oh my god, it's a Nefron, and it's like, no, he's actually that guest role. No, it's just Minoko. Yeah, it's just Minoko. But he has this quote -unquote son, who you learn later on, it was actually his mentor who keeps dying. And because he keeps dying, he keeps losing bits of what made him him. and So even though his son, I say that in the list of terms, his son keeps dying, it's not the person he knew and that's coming back. And again, the parallels are there. That's going to be the phrase of the episode, but the parallels are there that he is losing his son, much like Lenoir and Aline. are losing the painted version of their son. And again, as I said, the whole thing is not real. The thing that I brought up to you, and this it has been a hot minute since I thought about this painting that comes from the Treachery of Images, that of course being Sinispa un Pipe. This is not a pipe. Painted by, and I am going to butcher this name, René Magritte. René Magritte. If you've been in any high school in the United Kingdom, you'll know for sure. some reason this always appears in books it's never for religion or philosophy studies it's always maths or history or something you're like why is this painting it the hell are you doing that yeah that's not a pipe but the idea of that painting is despite the fact that although you look at it and go what are you talking about it is a pipe and it is it's a representation of a pipe but the idea is it is a painting of a pipe as a representation of a pipe but it is not a physical pipe that you can reach out grab it and start puffing at it ah but what is art Satsunami
Speaker: That is a whole other episode and you know it. Oh, God. But that is the thing, though. It's very much a representative of the canvas. It's like, it is a reality. You've got the Eiffel Tower. You've got all the Nevrons, just like Peli. But for legal reasons, that's a joke. That's very much a joke. There are no problems in Paris. But yeah, the fact is that this is not real. And that, of course, brings me on to the finale where I genuinely didn't expect this. When I got to the finale and they were like, oh, by the way, you can either save the canvas or you can destroy it once and for all. Because once I defeated Renmore, I thought, you know what? That's a fair ending. I felt like the final boss. Okay, we're done here. And then Verso looks at the portal and goes, I'm gonna be right back in a minute. so yeah does dashes and do out and then they make the whole point a a painted person should not be here but because it was original verso who painted this canvas and the whole point being that when a painter paints they put a part of their soul in and we've been seeing this haunting looking npc pop -up the faceless boy usually saying stuff like i'm tired i don't know where i am what am i doing i want to go home i want to stop kind of thing and there he is and it's painting and that's why verso has been cursed with this immortality because he somehow reacts or A fragment of Verso's soul in the painting reacts and keeps him alive and gives him these wonderful powers. Well, wonderful powers to a child, but it's the curse of immortality. Yes, Verso can't die, but as you get to know him, as he slowly lets his guard down in like the campfire scenes, you can see he's deeply emotionally and spiritually scarred. You think he's a bit of a rogue or a scoundrel or a how dare you stand where Gustav once stood kind of thing. I did not like Verso to begin with, but then he does have a certain warmth and genuine human charm to him. He never wanted to be a painter. he just wanted to play the piano which one of the endings is all the more horrifying for that oh yeah yeah we'll get to that but although one other thing i wanted to say on verso before we get too tired and something i want but yeah you to react to it's that i find verso to have some religious aspects to him i find that he has got parts of like a messianic figure but he's also luciferian or a trickster as well what do you think about that is that because he's chopped himself in half well there is that too but luciferian let's go like the most basic form of a luciferian deity or entity they're like someone who brings you to the very threshold of change or a new thing and they try and get you to cross that threshold into something else which is all of what he's scheming and trying to do you know he's telling the truth but not the whole truth he's lying by omission he desperately wants the expedition to succeed to destroy this damn painting it's his best hope of finally getting the piece of oblivion that he so desperately craves he's tired he doesn't want to go on anymore he doesn't intervene against painted renoir to kill gustave which is like the ultimate act of honesty that he does give with mael so he's done that he's like engineered it and pushed and prodded and worked behind the scenes a sort of a trickster luciferian element but also he's almost messianic in that he is literally poochie the rocking dog you know he's gustav but cooler this is my best friend sk this is my best friend monaco hey ciel when are we gonna get to the mono monolith factory the paint factory i don't know it's like hey ciel wanna bang it's like jesus gustav just died keep it in your pants son i can detach myself you know what does that mean but also yes he detaches himself but then monaco goes almost anime style he goes all that pain just to put a smile on their faces you're getting the soft kind of thing so there is like good in him and it does come out more and more and by the end i genuinely did like versa it also helps it both in the french dub and the english dub phenomenal voice acting the charisma on that man is something else to be honest but also it just goes to show how well the game is done because it manipulates you in camp you only have him so you're forced to use him and you're forced to make him interact well not forced but not times out of 10 you're probably going to want to see the story you're going to want to see and you start coming around to him so it's just more pennies for your thoughts i guess that is an interesting point because when you go into the camp overworld you do you get put into the perspective of gustav only and you can only talk to the other characters you know you talk to esky you talk to luny mael and cl you talk to the creator he just goes hey
Speaker: Yeah, he goes, hey. And that is the thing, though. It's like, you see it from Gustav's perspective as this world -weary, he's just lost his girlfriend, he's lost his whole team. It has been a rough week for him. It's been pretty shit, yeah. Yeah, but then you go from that to, as you said, putrefying him by bringing in Verso. I really did not like Verso to begin with, I agree with you. And by the end, I sympathise with him. But the writing is so good. To make you not like him that much, it's really well done. Oh, 100%. It is absolutely fantastic the way they... ended up flipping it but you're completely right you see all of this from his perspective the game almost tricks you into thinking that he is the main character after Gustav passes because it's like oh when you talk to the others for the most part there's a couple of exceptions but is usually Verso talking to the other characters so it's like Verso will talk to Lune or CL and you can spark a bit of a romance with them that's very much a fade to black kind of scenario thank god no one wants to see that I mean I never felt comfortable comfortable romance in cl when she was talking about her partner and everything so anyway tell me about your dead husband I'm not saying anyone who's been muddled, you know, they don't deserve to move on or anything like that. But at the same time... There's a time and place. And when you're fighting for a city of people... It was one of the few elements of the game I kind of thought, it's a bit... I thought they were leaning in too much to the JRPG cliches. Or like Baldur's Gate cliches. It's like, yeah, about 50 % of the companions will shag anything that moves. Let's just put one of the companions in and call it a day. It wasn't as well thought out, I would say. You didn't have to. But it's like, no, they're not going to, are they? They're not going to. Oh my God. So yeah, they essentially make Verso the pseudo -protagonist, even though it's a team effort. It's like he eventually becomes the one that he is older than the rest of them. He can't die. You know, he's the super special boy who has all these powers and everything. He's got all the bestest friends and he fights good and he knows about the canvas. But you're completely right. There is that. And again, when I say generic, I don't mean this as an insult. I mean that kind of... Cliché, man. Yeah, cliche, like the golden boy of the expedition that he'll... In fact, do you know what it reminds me of in D &D terms? You know when the DM or... Oh God, DMPC. Yeah, DMPC, which for those of you who don't know, the DM or GM, the game master or dungeon master, whoever runs the game and the narrative, if they have a particular character that joins your group and there's a stereotype that they're usually overpowered, they are the OC, you know, they're very Mary or Gary Sue -esque and... that is initially how I felt about Verso because I thought this is really weird 100 % but then you see why that's the case and then as you said it really flips on his head when because I kind of suspected there was something and you know it's the first time you go to old Lumiere which is fantastic 10 out of 10 location and you meet Renoir and it comes out that oh you're his son and everything don't get me wrong the group not questioning him more is kind of a sore spot I wish they'd pushed him more but it's like right okay fair enough it is what it is as they say as the cool kids say but then he becomes the focal point he becomes the linchpin of he knows what they have to do and he's their best chance so they kind of have to work with him out of desperation to fight against the Pinterest and then eventually against Renmar and everything and it is don't get me wrong it is very interesting but you're completely right it is lies of omission like he is not telling them the full story he had plenty of time to tell them and granted I can see why Why he wouldn't tell them? Because if you, again, amazing if you read the audio logs. Oh, he's got some incredible audio logs, which do give a great amount of perspective. Did he not fall in love with someone called Julie? Yes, in the first expedition, so expedition 00, until they, well, they noticed that he wasn't aging and then they grabbed him, they experimented on him. He understood why they did it. They're scared. They were panicking. But then with Renoir, he also wipes out that entire expedition by way of revenge. That's just tragic when you come across that. So you can understand why he's not. is open to that idea of sharing. And to be fair, if you were fighting against an existential threat and someone came to you and was like, hey guys, I'm immortal. I'm also that guy's son. Let's fight the pain dress. You'd be like, no, go away. Oh, by the way, I don't get gommaged. Isn't that nice? Right, get him. Yeah, exactly. You would not let him go. You're completely right. It is very manipulative and trickster -y. The bit that struck me the most for the manipulation was during the second act, obviously, because Gustav's not there anymore, but for some reason or another, Mael talked touches the curator it might be when you're giving them the items to make the weapon to penetrate the barrier and get to the monolith but she touches the curator and then it cuts to the black and white the chiaroscuro the clear obscure style but the black and white four by three aspect ratio and you see Renoir and then it snaps back immediately to the curator and Verso sees that as well and then he goes just like oh do you see Renoir you know he's in my nightmares too he's not telling her what she needs to know he's just pushing her to destroy the damn monolith and hopefully the painting by extension there's actually one scene and I don't know how many people have actually brought attention to this but it's when you go to the reacher this is where you take out and I mean this in the nicest way possible you take out painted Alicia who is the representation of Mael in this world and that is so devastating because she's got the white hair and everything she's all disfigured and whatnot she hides behind half a mask very Phantom of the Opera -esque it is quite tragic because that is the way that her mother has painted her into this world so if Everyone else is relatively normal, except for her. She's been painted. Snapped to that bit in my notes. Maelle comes face to face with painted Alicia. She can't recognize her own reflection. Very, very well done. And also, speaking of masks, and when you mentioned earlier with Ciel, but I couldn't really interrupt with masks, that's a massive part of persona. You know, you have to accept who you are, otherwise the shadow will basically attack you kind of thing. Well, not 100%, but speaking of what we were saying about Verso being the quote -unquote main character, one bit that... sticks out is when you eventually erase slash gommage her from the canvas it's only Mael and Alicia who get to talk face to face Verso gets quite angry at you because he's like he wants that final opportunity to say goodbye to her and again you know much like real life there's some moments where you don't get to say that final goodbye but on the flip side there's also a kind of and again maybe I'm reading too much into it to say quite sinister undercurrent that it becomes apparent in that instance that Verso is no longer the main character in this canvas he has been almost already slowly starting to be usurped by Mael slash Alicia no definitely in the second act he's the golden boy but then when Mael gets gommaged and wakes up as Alicia with all her paintless powers it's like all of a sudden I don't need you anymore and also that scene specifically is also very hypocritical where you know he berates Mael and he berates the others for not doing that sort of stuff and then all of a sudden he's Completely taken aback when Mael gommages painted Alicia. Or rather, Alicia gommages painted Alicia. But also, that was the scene when I realized that there's no more Mael in there. It's only Alicia. Because it's just like, have a fight. Brief talk. Do you want me to gommage you? Okay, here we go. And then didn't think about it. And then she just kept on going. Whereas Verso just saw his painted sister get gommaged right in front of him and didn't even get a chance to say goodbye. And that hit him really, really hard. It brought back that human weakness that had always been lurking within him kind of thing. I think it was act two. They do have a very touching scene painted Alicia and... And Verso, I mean, she leaves a letter that he reads at the start of. That's a gut punch. But also he makes a point of taking off the mask and saying, you know, my beautiful sister shouldn't wear such an ugly mask. So there is genuine warmth. Yeah, because it feels as if he's the only one, really. Up until the end, it treats her like a real person after that, because I think it's heavily implied that the writers, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the writers trick Mael. They trick Mael. To get in, set on fire, and Verso dies saving her. extra survivor's guilt on top of all of that, which plays into the end why you wouldn't want to go back to reality because your brother is dead because of you. Yeah, I get it. Have you heard the, and again, I can't remember it personally in the game, but I've heard people talk about it where there's a scene where Mael slash Alicia is trying to remember Verso and she remembers the last moments where he seems very much at peace. He's smiling, but he's surrounded by the flames. Whereas there's a later scene where you hear an audio only and it's like him. screaming in agony and pain. I think I skipped past that audio log, to be honest. No, I think it's part of a cut scene. But again, I'm not 100 % where that is in the game. It is possible. It is that idea. And it's something that is actually kind of a hopeful theme that we haven't talked about because we've talked about spiritualism. We've talked about simulacra and simulation. We've talked about grief. But the one thing that we haven't really talked about is love. And love is such an all -encompassing thing in this game. And whether it's the bonds of the expeditions that came before, or it's the bonds between the characters, or it's a family bond, it's really interesting to see how they develop because that love has been shattered by this sense of overwhelming grief that Aline can only see this hideous monster that was the reason that her son is now dead and forces her to cover up with this mask and everything. And don't get me wrong, painted Renmore does look after her to a degree and still cares. about Mael, but his goal is, at least real Renoir's goal, is to get everybody out of the canvas as soon as possible. But it's this sense of misguided love that everyone is acting this way from grief because of love. Because of love, yeah. So Aline is because she loves her son. Renoir is because he loves his wife. Mael is because she loves the found family that she's found in the canvas. And Claire, who loves to mess with people. There is that. Yes. We'll briefly touch. simon yes simon is an interesting one before we dive into the finale and i keep skirting around it because it's going to be such an interesting discussion to hear what you think about it but simon is an interesting character because he has a hidden boss you don't have to fight him but one of the greatest jrpg traditions a secret boss which is harder than the final boss you know oh 100 it still makes me cry at night and also he's a one -to -one copy basically as close as you can skirt without lawyers going after you of knight artorias from dark souls one or dlc actually down to the the broken arm and the way he holds his huge broadsword over his shoulder like that it's pure artorias and he was one of the best boss fights in the whole of the original dark souls one so you love to see it and his moveset is similar the way he's presented is similar like a noble knight who fell to the abyss and can't recognize friend from foe anymore so i absolutely adore that about him and one hell of a boss fight as well because it is so tragic again much like the other desondas family members he has lost himself because literally you go into a big deep dark pit that is illuminated by these massive swords you know we've seen him in old lumiere and we saw that they'd killed an axon and it's like what the hell who did this yeah then you find out oh it's this guy that i'm gonna have to cheese and i did cheese him pretty much i cheddared him yeah you haven't done the super simon yet have you in the endless tower what do you think
Speaker: Of course not. He's even worse. I have to admit, I had to create a broken build of Mael just to defeat him because I managed to get the first part of him. And then he gommages the whole party and then send in the backup who aren't ready. and Oh, it was grim because you defeat the first part of him and I knew there was a second part and I love that um moment, the swelling of the music, the We Lost soundtrack, which I listened to, it's so good. It's an excellent, excellent soundtrack. Because the reason he is down there is... because he fell in love with Peter Clare. And Clare, the real Clare, she ended up manipulating him and locking away the woman he fell in love with. So he ends up losing himself to this idea of he's trying to rescue her and he's doing what Clare's telling him to, but he's getting manipulated. It's tragic, it's horrific, and it's almost beautiful in a way that he is doing all of this for love, despite the fact he's getting clearly manipulated. because i love that scene where you know you defeat him for the first phase yeah claire whispers in his ears like these fools are beneath you rise and you know it's the swelling of the music you're like oh my god i'm so hyped i'm gonna die once again pure dark souls but you know stand for entertainment make no secret of the fact that they massively inspired by most of from soft stuff because there's a similar boss well similarish boss fight it's two phases it's big prince and little prince you beat them up they fall over the first time then you just Asshole little princess goes into the big prince's ear and goes, right. if you
Speaker: ah for that is our fate. I know it really begins in earnest. so you know the Well, I was going to say, at least it's better than someone whispering, you don't want to be like the loathsome dung eater, do you? Subscribe to Satsunami. These other podcasts are beneath you. Rise. Donate to Patreon. Again, flipping back onto what I was saying, it's that idea of whether it's the painted people, which I'm just going to refer to them. as the canvas people or the canvas men or the de sonda family it is this idea of whether it's misguided or not it is the idea of a love as well and it's that beauty of duality and that is encompassed in the finale which i know i keep bouncing back and forth but the finale encompasses that perfectly it's the idea of love versus grief and what is the right thing to do and i wasn't expecting this until they were like yeah who are you going to choose because as you said virtual was through and he talks to this wee boy who turns out to be a representation of himself. The last fragment of the original Verso is still left in the painting. That's all that's left of him. And all he's doing is constantly painting, adding to the canvas and everything. And Verso wants to stop him. He wants to say, you can rest, you're fine. Whereas Mael wants the canvas to keep going. She's like, you know, I want Gustav back. I want everyone else back. And that is the beauty of this game. I can see both sides. So out of curiosity, When you first played this, who did you side with? Oh, Verso, 100%. It wasn't even a question for me. Well, so the very first time you played this, you definitely went, yeah, 100 % Verso is my man. Yeah, it's like, I understand what you mean. And yes, all the people in the canvas are equally worthy of life and everything. But I'm a teacher. I've worked with 16, 17 and 18 year old kids. Mostly I teach in high schools. There is nothing more stupid on this planet than a 16 year old. And I'm sorry if you have to hear that from me. If you're a 16 year old listening, you are dumb as a bunch of rocks. you cannot think straight least of all when you are going through a massive amount of grief when we know that your mother has obviously it's not like huffing paint fumes it's not like it runs in the family but we know it is completely all -encompassing and you do not want to face reality because of the survivor's guilt and also what awaits you there so you would do anything to run away so you are not thinking clearly i can barely trust you to do your homework most of the time i'm not about to leave the fate of a whole world lying on you because like what happens afterwards A, the mile ending is sinister as f***.
Speaker: Because there's right at the very end, she's like glaring at Verso. It's like, play the piano. Play it. Is your name Billy Joel? Play, piano man, play. That is sinister. But also, she has this power to, you know, she can, she's un -gommage you. She can also gommage you if you piss her off. And what happens when she gets bored? You cannot live in a painting forever. That's the whole point of Aline. Do you know what I love to see about the finale? You see, before you get through to that decision, once you do, feet of lenoir and you know you're talking to him and everything and he's like begging mile to say it's not healthy to be in this painting step back from the painting come away do you know what energy it has it's like see if you were talking to your child on a school night and you're saying turn off the ds or the playstation or whatever and they're like no five more minutes papa and i swear i'll turn it off they're not coming off of minecraft they're not coming off a fortnight you know for a fact they're gonna be you know at the end of the mile end of which She's got the big bags under her eye, like the painted bag. That's what your child is going to be like. Again, I completely agree with you. It's like one of the most addictive experiences possible. Even Renoir admits that in the early days, he was almost completely overcome and he wouldn't have made it if Aline didn't have to step in. It's massively addictive to have the whole world at your fingertips like that and also to inhabit the last canvas and the last remnants of Verso. It's like, I get it. I absolutely get it. I'm actually surprised that Renoir let her off so easy after that. He's a loving father at the end of the day, isn't he? He doesn't want to... Choose anyone else. Yeah, else. Trying to hold the family together as best he can, despite the fact it's basically coming apart at the seams. It's still good. It's still good. It's just a little airborne. It's still good. It's still good. It's gone Renoir. I know. I kind of see what you mean about five more minutes on Minecraft, but it's not even, it's more powerful than Minecraft. It's like, oh, just one more smack of Skagdad. It's like, no, put it down. Phrase of the episode. I don't know if I'm reading too much into it, but it does remind me, over the ages, you'll have a different addictive hobby. whether that is reading painting or video games Warhammer Magic the Gathering tell me about it spending all your inheritance on Fortekay makes me laugh every time cry and laugh cry and laugh because I've seen people online dealing with grief putting the ashes of their cat in a dreadnought it's like you know that dreadnought's going to get shot off the table turn one Mr Mittens deserves better than this
Speaker: Or even worse. Grandad deserves better than this. Don't put Grandad in a fu - Threadnaught. Don't do it. Even in death, I still... know
Speaker: Games Workshop, if you're listening, why aren't you sponsoring this? There's a comedy goal. What are you doing? Like Versa was saying, they're tired. They've done their dues. And this isn't the 41st millennium. You don't have to press your dead cat into service for the armies of the emperor. All I'm saying is, thank God my L didn't have access to Warhammer 40k. From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh. I painted over it. I craved the strength and certainty of Citadel paint. Throughout history, you're always going to get different hobbies, you know, that people will throw themselves into. And ironically enough, it is some of the greatest sources of art that we have got as a result of tragedy, of grief, that artists pour themselves. I mean, look at Van Gogh, for example. His whole psyche and descent into madness. in things was represented through starry night and everything and oh 100 a tortured existence but i'm trying to paraphrase the doctor who episode of all things but and i ask such an excellent monologue that he could turn such pain into such beauty yeah no absolutely it's 100 there you can see from like the brush strokes that are left in the thick paint he used but it's all encompassing it's there's so much warmth to it no matter what age you come from people will pour themselves into a particular hobby. Again, whether it is painting, whether it's writing, or even whether it's gaming. I mean, look at all the people who pour themselves into things like MMOs or things like that where they create... Challenge funds can be beautiful in some ways. It actually makes me think of the digital age of the 21st century where what I find fascinating is we now live in an existence where this is technically the way that a lot of people live nowadays, that they throw themselves into this online persona. So you can genuinely, you could go online right now, create an account and be anybody you want. You could say, I'm so -and -so, I do this, I do that. And you can create this whole character as it were, this whole avatar. But in reality, you're someone completely different. And a lot of people do struggle with that, that they can't accept the reality. So they dive into something that is just not real as this simulacra. Exactly. I was just about to say, do you know what you're talking about? Hyper -reality. Exactly. So the simulacra inevitably leads to hyperreality. The distinction between reality and simulacra has collapsed. Simulacra, the copy of the copy of the copy is now more real than the real. That's what it's replaced by. And especially what you were saying right there. So Baudrillard wrote, he warned us about hyperreality. It's not a good thing. It leads to loss of meaning and authenticity. So, you know, the real becomes less real. We become much more fragmented and we become much more alienated because it's harder to share experiences. It's kind of what we see now. You can't just be a Scottish person. You can't just be... like a broad social category. It's much more broken down. So experiences become harder to share. We lose social cohesion. Things become lonelier. And inevitably, this hyperreality leads to an erosion of identity. Sense of self is, well, I like wrote this down almost word for word from the book. Sense of self is impossible when reality is so malleable. It becomes merely performative, like Instagram or TikTok. They don't live their best lives, but they portray it as such. And they live vicariously by portraying them living their best lives. Also, I have to cut in again. and also you mentioning personas that's the idea of jung and it's also very well key to the whole persona series there's no surprise there yeah the idea of a persona is that it can be incredibly lonely because no one knows the real you in every single interaction or with every single person you present a different persona of yourself it's a mask we wear but the way you present if you want to get really existential the satsunami i know is different to the satsunami your girlfriend knows is different to the satsunami that martin knows is different to the satsunami that your parents knows and that's just it one thing that you can do is if you have enough mental strength and you can work through it you can collapse your persona into just one person that you are able to portray but that requires a massive amount of input and energy and you can fall foul of the shadow which is another thing in persona which is the darkness the difference between the ideal and the real of a persona and like it can become incredibly destructive that you cannot or you're just frustrated with the ideas of personas so it's incredibly interesting what you're saying with identity and i completely completely agree you've hit the nail on the head there with that because that is the thing though it's like The further that we go on into the digital age, and it's a whole conversation for another day when you think about things like AI psychosis and things where that overlaps into another layer of reality. Yeah, humans should eat three to four small rocks a day. But that's the thing, though. It's like when you look at the canvas, and again, I completely agree with you. When I did both endings, Verso first and then Mael, and ultimately I decided that Verso's ending was... objectively the better ending because i i saw a lot of people online that they argued oh it's you're wiping out a whole civilization and everything and you're destroying them and everything but i mean to me it's almost equal to deleting a sim save file as it were because they've got their own lives they don't know any better they don't know why their ladders are disappearing from the pool that's the thing though it's like mael is essentially living in an echo chamber where everyone goes oh mael she's the one We love you, my old. Yay! Play piano, man. yeah That's the thing, though. It's like she has become the star of this. And again, this could be a whole episode on its own, that that idea of nowadays we've got that aspect of society that people are struggling with a sense of identity and they don't know where to turn. They are turning to these AI models that are basically telling them what they want to hear, you know. Oh, completely. This won't end well. Exactly. It won't. And it makes me fear for this. future but I was so shocked when people were justifying the Mael ending saying oh it's objectively the best needs of the many and things but it's the only time that I do disagree with Spock in this instance because the reality is and again when I say I reject the ending I don't mean that as in I think it's all stupid I understand why Mael feels like this she feels like this because she has been scorned by reality you know it's because essentially she's been injured permanently scarred by the fire and by the memories of what's happened is she thinks her family hates her and everything and I don't and really disagree with what she's saying there like if you were horribly scarred if you had debilitating physical ailments in real life and you had this world where you could run around as free as you wanted you could fly around you had all these powers and everything why wouldn't you want to stay there exactly why wouldn't you you know you have all these people that love you and everything all of these people who tell you what you want to hear you can be with your gustav and everything and i have to say when i watched that ending i may be sick to my stomach because as soon as i saw gustav i loved gustav i cried when he died andlapping the but that uh -huh that is not that is a pale imitation and i don't mean that as in it's like the timu version of gustav i mean literally gustav it's not the gustav that raised her absolutely not no i mean sk said it best you have to have the we with the woo exactly it's cliched and especially when you're dealing with grief, it really doesn't help to say, oh, you know, you've got to take the good with the bad. But in this case, it's a complete and utter denial of reality. But also, as much as I i admire here the amazing storytelling of George Lucas, but in this case, if Mael stays in her painted world, she is not completing her hero's journey. The last step is to go back where they came from, which obviously for Mael would be back to reality, back to the Dessens manner, in the real lumière, which she's not doing. And you cannot stagnate, which is what the painting and staying in the painting has showed. If you stagnate, you just get... get dragged down and you die, which ironically is a key thematic of Buddhism, but it also appears in Dark Souls. It's the idea of samsara. You cannot get trapped in this eternal cycle. You have to break through and keep going. Because that is the thing. You brought it up earlier about the different members of the D'Sondra family being stuck in the five stages of grief, you know, so anger, acceptance. And that is the thing. I think when you defeat Mayela's Verso and she yells at you and everything and she's begging, and she's in that bargaining stage and she has to be forced to be brought into that. Whereas if you flip it over, you have Verso in this really hard to get through. He's just like, let me die. isn't he Yeah, just he just basically says, I don't want this life. I don't want this life. And he's just begging constantly. And she's like, oh, it's okay. You can get old. And it's like, no, no, no. That's not how this works. And that's the thing. And maybe it's a somber note to end on, but that is almost the beauty of this game that it forces these characters. to eventually come to the realisation of what has happened to them is a great tragedy but this doesn't have to be the end of their lives and there's a beautiful shot at the end maybe a wee bit cliche and on the nose where they lay the flowers at Verso's grave and you've got all the characters but ironically enough George Lucas like Return of the Jedi where it's all the force goes off the ancient people and they're going Hayden Christensen what are you doing here you didn't look like that yeah
Speaker: he's playing the esky in that ending it's the first time you see the whole famille de sang together which they haven't done before exactly one of my absolute favourite and I'll let you pronounce the name of it do you know the track I'm talking about here oh and l 'endemain non écrit
Speaker: an unwritten tomorrow. That plays in the background and it is just so, so beautiful. It is absolutely incredible because it is, it's just such a very bittersweet ending where it's like they have to come to the acceptance that Verso's gone, right? Verso's gone. There is no bringing him back from this scenario. But at the same time, what I find interesting about the imagery of this game as well is, you know, when you're in Lumiere, although it's like a kind of copy, of Pally you see the Eiffel Tower bent out of shape and everything but when you see the ending in Verso's grave you see the Eiffel Tower behind them yeah and it's normal quote unquote yeah exactly yeah it's in shape it's standing perfectly tall and everything and that is the reality of the situation and it's just it's such a bittersweet ending but i think it's such an important ending as well it is the correct ending though because a month after the game came out they did a poll online 56 percent of respondents were normal people and said they picked the verso ending 24 said they picked the my l ending and were wrong and then 20 said they picked the secret claire ending as a joke or they couldn't quite handle the emotion or they were still processing it. So that's still two to one in favor of the Verso ending. So there is that. Although we're getting to the end of this, something I skipped over completely because it's not even in the game, but it can like reframe a fair bit. It is a throwaway line in the art book of Claire Obscure Expedition 33. And that is that there is an incredible taboo for the painters on one thing. You are never, ever to paint a copy of someone who already exists. It has to be an original creation. So in her grief, you can only imagine how many laws and taboos Aline transgressed in an attempt to try and heal from it to show the depths of her grief and knowing that i think that
Speaker: contextualizes things a bit better. It's like, wow, and Mael painting a copy of a copy or does the rule still apply? You know, the question's still there, but you're never supposed to paint a copy of a real person. It has to be original. Screw the rules. I have a paintbrush. I have white hair. As a closing point for this episode, I do feel as if Expedition 33 does a masterful job in interweaving these particular themes. And it's definitely a tale of, you know, you can say it's a, oh, fun. to say epic and everything and i think that's why people who don't like the twist probably don't again i'm not saying like in a pretentious way oh they don't understand the themes or anything and but to be fair you have to have a very high iq to understand explanation it's echwan sauce you say wobalaa du oh god i hate that i know that yeah same but i've not even seen the show could be worse in france masters is over two years i made the mistake of writing my first year master's thesis on rick and morty oh dear yeah did you win uh i got uh i got 85 i mean fair enough so yeah but at what cost well very very true but as i was saying it is just so masterfully interwoven that you've got this tale of love of grief that things aren't always going to go perfect in life you know you're always going to get these moments that are going to challenge you as a person we would love to think that we could just go through a painted reality that everybody loves you that everyone's gonna accept everything about you and things but it's also a somewhat realization that although things aren't necessarily going to go right it doesn't mean that everything's terrible in life well to me it really upset me when people say oh everything happens for a reason it doesn't feel like it but what i will say is that things will get better not immediately not right away and it takes some work but it's cliched and if you just said that to me when i was like deeply upset or depressed i would have probably glared at you but it is still at the end of the day better to have loved and lost than have never to have loved at all that is genuinely one of the things and not to get too like pretentious on my own podcast here but it is one of the things that i have genuinely been thinking about recently because you know life is quite overwhelming at times especially at the moment yeah and again i don't mean this in a personal sense but like in the general sense of you know you turn on the news and everything everything's on fire, both literally and figuratively. AI is coming to eat our pension funds and our retirements. The money's all going into that. It's not looking good. The future isn't looking wonderful at the moment, but...
Speaker: And I feel as if though that nowadays, especially in the content creation sphere and thinking about the painters as well in the game, it is so much easier to surrender yourself to these negative feelings and just go with the flow. Especially with AI and things, there's a lot of apathy that people go, oh, it's easy just to accept the flow of it or... It's not even that, man. It's like we're talking about the algorithms are based on keeping you upset or anxious or worried about something. So they can either... to sell you supplements to make things better or to hold your attention. Fact of human life that we remember negative reinforcement better than positive. We remember bad news more than good. And that is what everything is built around funneling us towards. It's rough out there. Oh no, 100%. Again, it's so easy to get lost in that feeling. Completely. To sit here and think, oh yeah, I'm just going to let the grief overtake me. And then you fall into that pit of depression and things and that idea that nothing is going to get better. And I genuinely... We're fine. And I always thought about this with the podcast and content creation as a whole, that it's so much easier to lean into that negativity. And don't get me wrong, in Chatsanami, we have a couple of episodes where we're keen to jokingly be negative with a lot of topics, whether it's pandemic or something like that. I suppose, but yeah. Yeah, but in a joking way, you know, it's like that's a low -hanging fruit to be like, oh, that's a terrible film. But if I were to make the whole persona of Chatsanami just complete, Oh, negativity, doom and gloom, etc. I don't know how well I'd be able to look at myself in the mirror. And I'm not saying that Chatsanami is perfect by any means. It's not going to be the shiny beacon that, I mean, I would hope so, that someone out there is listening and has a good laugh and, you know, it brings a smile to their face and makes their day a little better. But I would much rather have a podcast that did that and inspired just a little bit of hope. Again, that's the common misconception. When I say... everything is doom and gloom and everyone's slipping into despair. I'm not expecting to make a speech and by the end of it, everyone's going to be like, you know what, Satsu, you're right. Thousands of philosophers over centuries have talked about this, but you've managed to solve it in two seconds. But it's something that you brought up as well there, and thank you for sharing, but when you brought up about your experiences and everything, that progress is not about waking up the next day and just completely changing yourself like a drastic overhaul. Pretty sure that's a medical... relevant diagnosis for something seriously wrong with you. all about those small steps in the right direction. And as I said, whether it's listening to a silly podcast, whether it's going for a walk, whether it's self -care or whatnot, and this might sound so cheesy, apologies, but the fromage, if you will, but there is life outside the painting and there is life outside the grief and everything. You're not always going to get there right away. It might take days, it might take weeks, it might take years. If there's any listener out there who is going through grief and things, I genuinely believe that I'm not going to sit here and go, oh, things will get better and give you empty platitudes or anything. But what I would say is there is always light, even though if you fall into the darkest pits of despair, there is always going to be light there at the end. And after 300 episodes, I'm not going to pretend this is like a health and well -being podcast. Holy shit, that's a lot of light. That is the thing, though. I try my best to at least make sure that people have a good time after they listen to a lot of the episodes. And sometimes we do go into heavy themes. You know, we've gone into things about female harassment, for example, or the decline of the gaming industry, you know, from very serious issues to maybe not as serious, but still quite negative issues. And it is, after 300 episodes, it is that idea that, I mean, and again, I'm not saying this in a parasocial way, to promise that things will get better but things aren't always as bad as you might think they are that is what i want to leave the 300th episode on like that note that things can get better and whether we are doing this podcast for 300 episodes whether we're doing it for 300 more we're going for the big how many episodes of the simpsons are there you you should know mate not me Yeah, I think they're at 800, but I'm going to be honest, I don't think we'll catch up by then. Do you know, the ironic thing is, see if we wanted to catch up to The Simpsons as of now, I think we would need six more years to get to 900 episodes. That's keeping up the output as it's been the whole time. Yeah, I mean, unless we double production per week, but as of this episode, unfortunately, we don't have many sponsors, I'm going to be honest. Budget says no. No. And by many... I mean, we have none, but we have our amazing Pandalorian patrons who they've supported us and everything. And honestly, that is the amazing thing about this whole journey, both in podcasting and thinking back to Expedition 33 and that whole aspect of, you know, light versus dark, that although I started the podcast because of like a very, very dark time, that being, of course, the COVID lockdowns in 2020, that provided me with a sense of light and a sense of community. that and in turn that guided me to build better relationships with my friends and get them on the podcast to be able to interact with other content creators to genuinely make some really good relationships with them and it's been a fantastic journey and I couldn't have done that if I just stayed in my own bubble if I stayed in my own canvas ironically enough I wouldn't have gotten to 300 episodes I wouldn't have met you I wouldn't have met I mean obviously would have kept in touch with Martin and such but we hope yeah yeah yeah but I wouldn't have collaborated the same as what I'm saying but the community as a whole and podcasting has been great it's been again I wouldn't say escape of the canvas but it has been a great sense of accomplishment and also yeah just a great experience and I mean that's the final thoughts that I have in terms of that like the very cheesy fromage way of ending to say to everyone who's been listening and following us for six plus years and 300 episodes nearly 125 000 plays overall that is damn impressive isn't it just but honestly thank you to everybody for supporting us in this journey for encouraging a couple of goofy guys And whoever comes on. Some goofy guys. Encouraging us to do what we love because this has been an absolutely fantastic experience. But before I wrap up. And, you know. Once again, thank the amazing Pandalurians. Do you have any final thoughts, either about Expedition 33 or the podcast or just in general? I kind of think Expedition 33 wraps it up the best, to be honest. Once again, it's Gustave, by far and away the most human of all the characters. I think, yes, it's the very first time you see him. He has a great line, which in French, So roughly, I think it's, I'm enjoying being useless today because tomorrow I might be useful. And that kind of thing. thing. You've got to roll with the punches. Some days are better than others. But, you know, you've got to continue. Yeah. On that note, Wonko, thank you so, so much for joining me, not just in the 300th episode, but talking about a game that, quite frankly, I genuinely never thought would hit me in the feels and just basically change my thinking as a whole bit. No, absolutely. I wasn't thinking it would be this good either. Genuine lightning in a bottle kind of stuff. Probably the most worthy game of the year of 2025, well, of any time, really.
Speaker: and You know, the cherry on the cake being seeing Todd Howard's smug face getting shattered as his goddamn game didn't win. But enough negativity. enough talk but honestly no it's been an absolute blast discussing this game with you and yeah just harassing you all others you know texting you being like did you see this have you seen this fan theory me just humming the loomy air theme in your headset it's a great theme to be fair but yeah just the more i think about it you've gone from humble beginnings but you're definitely making waves you know you're on a journey you can look back and you can see the 300 episodes you've done you can see the blood sweat and tears you've put in and you can be proud of every single one of them but the same time you can also punch your shoulders you can or set your shoulders you can adjust the pack on your back and you can keep marching to that horizon it's there it's just out of reach for the time being for now for now oh god it's just like larks all over again the vikings my point is you'd always make it to the tidal island
Speaker: And on that note. Lend us far. Yeah.
Speaker: Honestly, if you want to understand what the heck we're talking about, you can listen to more of our episodes, including our Chatsu Cafe episode, which is a fantastic episode, by the way. I actually love re -listening to it because... It's surprisingly fun. Yeah. Surprisingly, no, this is fantastic. I remember you talked about the expedition on that episode and I had no idea what you were talking about. You were talking about Simone, you were talking about Gustav and everyone. I was like, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure it's a great game. And then afterwards, I re -listened to that part of the episode. I was like, oh my God. Oh my God, I know exactly what you're talking about here. It's fantastic. So if you want to listen to that episode of Chatsu Cafe, as well as all of our amazing episodes over the years, then you can check us out at our website, chatsunami .com, as well as all good podcast apps. I also want to thank our amazing Pandalorian patrons. As I said, Robotic Battle Toaster, Ghostie. Yay! Encryptic 1991. You know where you are in the Discord server. But yeah, thank you so much for supporting the show. Honestly, your contributions to the podcast have been absolutely fantastic. And if you would indeed like to support us over on Patreon, where you can get access to our amazing commentary tracks, early access to episodes, exclusive episodes, bloopers, as well as Wonko and I's true thoughts on Claire of... it's banned in 12 countries 12 you say find out what 12 countries on patreon .com forward slash chats in the army for legal reasons that last one's a joke definitely a joke yeah but definitely check out our patreon it's a fantastic place to get extra content for the podcast you indeed love also this podcast is a proud member of the pod pack collective for more information check us out our twitter slash x page at pod pack collect but until next time thank you all so much for supporting us over no just nearly years but also through all the milestones that we've been through over the years it has been wonderful podcasting to you guys as always stay safe stay awesome and most importantly resty hydraty
