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Representation in Mystery with Elle Wren Burke
295 Plays1 year ago
Brook and Sarah speak with author Elle Wren Burke to discuss representation in mysteries and sleuths with disabilities (and why we need more of them!).
Discussed in order
- A Fang to Remember (2002) Elle Wren Burke
- Bones (2005-2017)
- Sherlock Holmes
- Jeffrey Deaver
- Truly Devious series (2018) Maureen Johnson
- Get a Life Chloe Brown (2019) Talia Hibbert
- Shadow and Bone (2021) Netflix
List of mysteries with representation
About Elle Wren Burke
For more information
Instagram: @cluedinmystery
Contact us: hello@cluedinmystery.com
Music: Signs To Nowhere by Shane Ivers – www.silvermansound.com
Transcript
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Overview
00:00:12
Speaker
Welcome to Clued in Mystery. I'm Sarah. And I'm Brooke, and we both love mystery. Hi, Brooke. Happy Friday, Sarah. It's the best day of the week, and it's even better because we've got another interview today.
Introducing Elle Renberg and Her Work
00:00:31
Speaker
Yes. So I will introduce our guest who's going to be speaking to us today about representation in writing. Elle Renberg is a paranormal cozy mystery author who writes witty, fun books with strong females as protagonists.
00:00:47
Speaker
Elle also lives with hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, a connective tissue disease. She has master's degrees in geography and business, lives in Arizona with her husband and fur babies. She enjoys puzzles, baking, board games, and bubble baths. Welcome, Elle. Hi, thank you for having me.
00:01:07
Speaker
Yes, thanks for being here, Elle. We're so excited to talk to you about this, and I think it's going to be such an important perspective to give our listeners, so this is going to be great.
Representation of Disabled Characters in Literature
00:01:16
Speaker
So Elle, in the author's note of A Fang to Remember, you write, According to the CDC, one in four Americans are disabled, but where are these characters in books?
00:01:27
Speaker
Disability can be very isolating and lonely. When you can't find yourself in books or on TV, the isolation grows. If even one disabled person feels a little less lonely after reading this book, I will have succeeded. And first of all, I think that's beautiful, and I'm definitely sure that you have succeeded. But let's start there. Tell us about your inspiration for writing your mystery series with the disabled sleuth, Josie Wicks.
00:01:59
Speaker
So first I just want to say I know that like one in four number sounds like a really big number, right? Like one in four people are disabled. But I think it's important to remember that like aging can create disability too. And those who are disabled from age need access rights and representation just as much as other disabled people do. And then when you kind of look at the 21 to 64 age group, it's more like one in 10. And we're talking about a big list of
00:02:27
Speaker
you know, medical problems, types of blindness, types of chronic pain, things like that. And, you know, these are all types of things that society doesn't really want to talk about, including, you know, mental health problems, neurodivergence, things like that. And because society doesn't really want to talk about these things, people are left in the dark about disability and people who are disabled are kind of like left alone in the dark with their challenges. So, you know, when I was coming to terms with being disabled myself from
00:02:56
Speaker
Ehlers-Danlos, I looked for books with characters who had EDS and I found one. And so that's like kind of really difficult when you're trying to adjust and you're trying to adapt to something and you just can't find anyone like you, you know. And so once I kind of processed my disability myself, because even though my disability is genetic, I wasn't always
00:03:23
Speaker
like actually physically disabled from it. It took some time for that to happen. And so once I kind of processed it, adjusted to it, it was kind of like, why wouldn't I write about it? You know, it's just my life. And I think for a lot of disabled people, that that's kind of what they're dealing with too. It's just their life. It's not anything out of the ordinary to us.
Authenticity in Depicting Disabled Characters
00:03:45
Speaker
And so that was really important to me when I was writing Josie, the main character in my vampire pet boutique, Mysteries, who is dealing with EDS as well. It was really important to me that she kind of defy disabled stereotypes and caricatures of disabled characters. So, you know, she's snarky, she's funny, she's sassy, she's badass, but she's also kind and understanding. And she deals with a lot of chronic pain.
00:04:15
Speaker
achy joints and muscles and just widespread kind of severe pain, but she's doing her best with it. She's working with the pain. You know, I just really wanted to show that we can have these like kick ass detectives who are dealing with these challenges. And you know, there's times when she just needs to like collapse on the floor and just kind of like be in pain or take a day or half a day to just like let her body recover. And so I wanted to show how
00:04:41
Speaker
you know, investigating impacts her disability and her pain too, but how she just keeps going. And, you know, that that's so important to me in general to just show that we have these disabled people, these disabled characters who are just like going about their lives.
00:04:57
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I love it.
Romance and Stereotypes in Mystery Series
00:04:59
Speaker
And I think that you did break a lot of the stereotypes. I thought the book was great in that it, um, it did break those caricature feelings that you do sometimes get if you do have a disabled character. One thing I love that, um, if you say breaking the stereotypes, like she's a hottie and the
00:05:17
Speaker
really cute scientist is all about trying to make her his girlfriend. And I love that component. You know, it's a cozy mystery. So obviously nothing gets too hot or steamy, but I just love that component that you have that romance in there too, because it's something we don't always see, right? I agree. I think in general, if we kind of look at like the history of disabled characters, you know, on TV, in movies, in books,
00:05:47
Speaker
what have you, you don't see them as desirable, right? Like to society, we kind of want to like push them out of the rug, or we want to be like, Oh, look at the like disabled person that needs our help or whatever. And so in this case, like you said, she's a hottie called to the scientist, he just really wants to be with her, you know, like, he sees her for who she is. And I absolutely love that too. I think it's
00:06:15
Speaker
It's actually like my favorite part to write in the books. Super cool. Yeah, I loved it. So how do you feel about non-disabled authors attempting to write a disabled character? Because I think that brings up that fine line between authenticity and caricature. So there's absolutely a fine line, but I think it really depends. Obviously, diverse characters are extremely important in any kind of media.
00:06:44
Speaker
um, you know, race, sexual orientation, gender identity, the list just goes on and on. And we don't want to write characters that only just like mimic ourselves, right? Um, we want characters in our books that reflect the diversity in the world around us, including disability. However, I think it really depends on the role that character is playing. Um, like I'm not about to write a main character who's deaf because I can't speak to the deaf experience. I can't put in the reader and
00:07:14
Speaker
a deaf character's world. But, you know, could I have a deaf character who isn't the main character? It's like, absolutely. So my thought is that main characters with disabilities should be written by disabled creators. And, you know, that we need many, many, many, many more disabled characters in books on TV who aren't the main character too.
00:07:41
Speaker
And, um, you know, it's just really important, as you mentioned, they should not be a caricature, right? Um, if you're going to have a character who's disabled and they're going to play a significant role, you just need to have your work sensitivity ride. And you need to have that be a really important part of the process, either bringing, you know, beta readers in, or, you know, if you know someone with a disability.
00:08:06
Speaker
to really work with them and the disabled community to make sure that your characters are really reflective of their truth. And there's a saying in the disabled community that's really, really important. And it's nothing about us without us. And people made decisions about disabled people for a really, really long time. And a lot of those decisions were really harmful to the community.
00:08:34
Speaker
created these stereotypes, created these characters. And, you know, now I think it's just really important that if you're making something that disability is fundamentally involved in, that you bring in disabled people to help you with it. Um, and then we also just have like side characters, you know, who are, who are disabled or it's just like, you know, Jim's in a wheelchair or Joe has some form of blindness, you know, things like that, because I think that,
00:09:04
Speaker
Like we said, there's that one in four, one in 10, those statistics about how many people are actually disabled and we just don't know it or have a medical condition that we don't know about or whatever. And so it's just really important that we have more and more characters. So it's just like normal, right? It's like, let's just talk about it. Let's just normalize it. Let's not sweep it under the rug because we all know someone
Importance of Disabled Characters in Fiction
00:09:33
Speaker
who has a disability or a health problem or a mental health issue. We all know someone like that if we're not dealing with it ourselves and we need to reflect that in fiction more.
00:09:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And that brings us back to your author note, right? Because that's going to help people feel seen and feel less isolated. You know, you've inspired me because I've thought about the fact that of making sure I have representation in other ways in my books, but it was up. It was a blank space of not like, yeah, I don't have any disabled people in my stories. And so I have an idea and I might be contacting you to help me shape a side character.
00:10:16
Speaker
if you're interested. Yeah, of course. Absolutely. I would love that so much. Yeah. Cause I think, you know, like you said, it's, it's really important to help, um, people with disabilities, like not just feel lonely and isolated to help them feel seen. I've had people, um, write to me their social media or people who are on my newsletter and just tell me how much they enjoyed the book and how much it really
00:10:45
Speaker
made them feel seen. And a lot of these people have disabilities that aren't really similar to MIME. Some of them have chronic pain, but some of them have MS or a form of blindness or something. And so just seeing another character who's disabled, whether it's the same disability you have, can really help you feel less alone. But then it also helps society understand where these people with different types of disabilities are coming from, what their lives are like, right? And so I think
00:11:15
Speaker
You know, we just need as a society to be more open about it. Like we can't grow as a society if we're closed off about these things, if we only know our own experiences. So I just think that's all really important.
00:11:30
Speaker
Yeah, that's really cool. That's great.
Neurodivergent Characters in Media
00:11:32
Speaker
What about sleuths who are sort of coded but not explicitly identified as neurodivergent? I'm thinking of like Sherlock Holmes or Temperance Brennan and Bones. Would it be better for representation if authors were more explicit? So I have a few opinions on this. And part of it is because my husband is autistic.
00:11:57
Speaker
And he also has ADHD, so he's got kind of these two areas of neurodivergence. And so that gives me like my own perspective. Obviously, I myself am not neurodivergent, so I can kind of only speak from my own experience. But also, you know, I think sometimes there's other disabilities that are sort of applied as well. So it can be a bigger topic. But I think specifically when we're talking about neurodivergence,
00:12:24
Speaker
Sherlock Holmes is kind of a tough subject because I don't know if we can say he's coded as neurodivergent because that concept didn't really exist at the time. You know, we didn't really see Asperger defining Asperger's until I think like 50 years after Holmes was written and then that's now kind of an outdated term and we have autism spectrum disorder instead. And, you know, Holmes has some autistic traits, but is he autistic? You know, we don't know. We know that Doyle based him around
00:12:54
Speaker
physician mentor who had those like hyper observant qualities, right? But from what I understand, anyway, maybe, you know, totally let me know if you know anything different. But from what I understand, we don't know if his personality is also from that same man. So, you know, was was there an autistic guy who he based homes on, you know, we just kind of don't know. So
00:13:19
Speaker
I have some more thoughts about, um, you know, characters like bones, but I don't know if you have anything to add about Sherlock. No, I think that I would agree with that because we know that his mentor really did influence him, but that's about as much as we know. Um, and Doyle himself was a medical doctor. So perhaps he had a patient or someone in his care that he was basing homes off of, but you're right. We really don't know.
00:13:47
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a really good point, too, that he could have had someone just care. But yeah, I think, you know, we don't know there. But then when we want to talk about a character, like in Bones, that's kind of a different topic, right? So I would say 100%, yes, absolutely. You should be explicit about that character having autism or a form of neurodivergence.
00:14:17
Speaker
I guess my thought is just like, why wouldn't you be? What do you think you'll lose like ratings or viewers or readers or whatever? Um, if you do actually explicitly say that the character has autism, I think in a lot of cases they're kind of like pulling these autistic traits to create these detectives who then use these autistic traits to like solve these cases.
Disability as a Superpower: An Authentic Narrative
00:14:43
Speaker
So that's,
00:14:43
Speaker
the source of their success a lot of the times in shows like that. And so you're like pulling from autism without actually acknowledging autism. And I think that, you know, for me as someone who has an autistic husband, I'm like, well, why not just say it? You know, it's, it isn't even just about representation, but it's about like not shoving it under the rug, you know, not,
00:15:10
Speaker
making that character's disability invisible by not acknowledging it. And I just think if you're going to use those traits, why not just say like, hey, Bones is autistic. I think it'd be different if it was something that the character grew into. So if it was a book series or a TV show where at the beginning, you're kind of like as a viewer, you're like, oh, like this character seems like they might be autistic, but it's not being explicitly said. And then
00:15:39
Speaker
you see how they like grow into a diagnosis over time. I think that's really different because a lot of people aren't getting diagnosed with autism until they're adults. So you don't necessarily know when your child, for example, my husband was like 34ish, 34, 35. We don't remember exactly when he was diagnosed. So I think, you know, a narrative like that would be great.
00:16:04
Speaker
Um, but if it's something like the whole series, you're just going to have the character pulling from autism, but not actually saying it's autistic. Like that just seems weird to me. Like, are you saying there's something wrong with it then? Or I don't know. What do you think? Oh, I think what you just said was fantastic.
00:16:24
Speaker
Yeah, I think it would be a fascinating series to read as a character kind of discovers or confirms a diagnosis, whether it's ADHD or autism, because I think ADHD is often diagnosed later in life or can be diagnosed later in life as well. And yet to see that kind of development in the character while they're solving crimes would be pretty amazing.
00:16:54
Speaker
Yeah. And imagine how that would, you know, make someone feel who just went through that or is going through it, you know, to read that experience or watch that experience would be probably really meaningful for them. You know, as long as, again, as long as it was done while working with the disabled community, right? Like bringing in people who are autistic or ADHD, or I think it can actually be a really good narrative for
00:17:20
Speaker
any kind of disability that isn't diagnosed right away or a medical condition that develops. So with me, I knew that I had a lot of separate medical issues, but they didn't come under one umbrella for quite a while. And so that process would be really interesting. And I think that happens with a lot of people.
00:17:43
Speaker
Um, and so I, I just, I, yeah, I think that would be really interesting. I'm kind of inspired now, maybe in my next series, I'll, you know, have the character kind of do that, go through that process of becoming more physically disabled over time. I think that's really interesting. Yeah. What a great long-term character arc for a series. So that leads really well into another question Sarah and I had for you, which is can a character's disability become their superpower?
00:18:13
Speaker
Okay, so this is a really tough question, I think, and I have a lot of thoughts about it. Good. And I can't speak for, you know, I can't speak for every type of disability or on behalf of other people with disabilities. This is just kind of my perspective on it. So your question makes me think of a quote from Jeffrey Deaver on the Crime Fiction Lover website.
00:18:37
Speaker
And it's, Lincoln's strength is in his disability. As he says, his condition helps him focus more intensely on crime scenes. So of course we're talking about the Lincoln Rhyme series and Lincoln Rhyme is a quadriplegic. And I thought that was a really interesting quote. And I started to kind of dive deeper. And I read an amazing article from almost 20 years ago, from 2004, in Disability Studies Quarterly,
00:19:03
Speaker
And it was called Detecting Disability Moving Beyond Metaphor in the Crime Fiction of Jeffrey Deaver. And, you know, this article did just a really amazing job at breaking down disabled detectives and then also had more of a focus on rhyme. And it discusses the ways in which his disability was used as a metaphor for something bigger in society.
00:19:26
Speaker
and how his disability was used to kind of separate the mind from the body until it isolate him is like just the brain. So he's like, just the brain, just the detective, which would then allow him to focus more on crime scenes. And the article talks about how in general with disabled detectives that the disabilities have kind of historically been used to
00:19:50
Speaker
separate detectives from the norms and expectations of society and kind of like giving them the ability to operate differently and play by different rules to catch the criminal. And in some cases it kind of does seem like their disability is like a superpower. I assume that's the kind of thing that you mean. And I do understand like this concept and I think there's a place for it. But kind of like I was saying earlier,
00:20:20
Speaker
for you know most people our disabilities are like just a part of who we are um or at least that's how it is for me like my disability is part of who I am to me it's not like a metaphor or something to be like used as a superpower and it was kind of the same way that I wrote Josie right like she's not like a metaphor for something bigger in society you know her disability doesn't make her a better detective like
00:20:47
Speaker
She is just a kick-ass girl out there solving, you know, mysteries who's also disabled. And so I just think that if disabilities are in any way going to be depicted as superpowers, then they should probably be written by someone who has that superpower, who sees their own disability in that way, right? Like someone who, for example, a quadriplegic who maybe does see their
00:21:17
Speaker
disabilities as your power rule, then that should be coming from their voice and their experience, or maybe someone like a parent if you had, say, an autistic child or something like that. And I'm not at all trying to call out authors who have used those kind of metaphors and constructs, right? For example, the Lincoln Rhyme series really shed a lot of light on disability at a time when it wasn't really at all
00:21:44
Speaker
visible. And his partner, too, has throne health challenges, right? I think endometriosis and a couple other things, arthritis, I think. Definitely correct me if I'm wrong about that. But, you know, he created a disabled character who was really like an agent in his own story, whereas historically, disabled characters were things that bad things happen to and like only bad things happen to. And
00:22:14
Speaker
So I think that was really great. I think he's actually won some awards for the way that he's depicted disability. But I just think kind of like where we are now that we need to be giving disabled creators a platform. And it's important for disabled creators to tell their own stories. And so it's kind of up to them to decide, I guess, if their disability is a superpower or not.
00:22:42
Speaker
So I don't know. What do you think? I know I love that. And that's really, really helpful.
Favorite Disabled Characters in Media
00:22:48
Speaker
I think that that is kind of how we all have to approach story, right? Like you said, this is just something about you. And I have things about me. And I'm going to use those in my work differently than someone else with the same situation might use it in their work. So that was a really helpful way to talk about that, Elle. Thank you.
00:23:13
Speaker
And so like you said these you write a character who it's part of her everyday life Who are some of your favorite kick butt characters who also happen to have a disability? So I thought about this and I kind of wanted to Like shuttle in on a few different characters across different like genres in media so and
00:23:40
Speaker
If you're familiar with the Spider-Man comic books at all, there's the overall Spider-Verse where there's multiple spider people. And now we actually have Sun Spider who has EDS and is also part of the LGBT community. So as soon as I saw that there was a superhero, we were just talking about superpowers, but this is an actual superhero.
00:24:05
Speaker
who has EDS and she has a wheelchair. And then she also has forearm crutches, which are crutches that you sort of use more of your forearm instead of under your armpit. And those actually turn into like weapons that she uses while she's fighting. And I just thought it was so cool. So I immediately bought a copy of the comic book and I've got it in like a little plastic sleeve and I like show it to my niece and nephew. And I just thought that that was so cool.
00:24:35
Speaker
Um, so yeah, she's kind of my favorite with like my own disability. Um, you know, I also deal with like a lot of anxiety. And if you've read the truly deviant series, then you know, Stevie Bell has a lot of anxiety and panic attacks. And I, I love her so much. She's just really like a kick butt detective. And, you know, and I like also that
00:25:03
Speaker
she has these panic attacks and she takes medication for them when needed, you know, when in the middle of a panic attack and that that's not, you know, framed as a bad thing at all. Um, so I love that. Then, um, from a romance perspective, there's Chloe Brown from Get a Life, Chloe Brown. Um, and she has fibromyalgia and she doesn't let it stop her at all. I mean, she even climbs a tree in the book and ends up getting kind of funny cause she gets stuck
00:25:32
Speaker
But it's great. I love that so much. And then one other one who I love. I don't know if you guys read any fantasy or watch Shadow and Bone on Netflix, but there's Kaz, who is from Crooked Kingdom by Leigh Bardugo. And he uses a cane from a leg injury. And he also has PTSD. And I love this character, especially because Leigh herself uses a cane.
00:26:02
Speaker
Um, because she has something called osteonecrosis. And so I love that she actually like wrote a character and she said that, you know, she wrote that character, um, you know, to kind of reflect herself or at least when it comes to the cane. So those are some of my favorites. Um, my husband and I also really love, um, atypical on Netflix with the character Sam who's autistic.
00:26:28
Speaker
And he ended up doing some really, really cool things that I don't want to spoil for anybody who hasn't seen it. It's really good. So I think those are my kind of favorites at the moment. But I have a huge TBR list, too. I actually found a list online that there's a person who maintains a list of mysteries with disabled characters. And it's huge. And it was so cool to see there was you.
00:26:57
Speaker
blind characters, characters with war injuries, characters who had disabilities for medical reasons, all kinds of things. And now my TBR are just, you know, double or triple, maybe. So, yeah. Well, that sounds really good. Maybe you could share that link with us and we could put it in our show notes, Elle. Absolutely. Yeah, I will send that to you guys. So, Elle, where can our listeners find you?
Where to Find Elle Renberg's Work
00:27:23
Speaker
so they can find me on Instagram, Facebook, and then you can find my books on Amazon. There's also my website, which is just lberkauthor.com. Wonderful. Elle, this has been so wonderful. I've learned a lot. I know our listeners are going to learn a lot, and this is a very important conversation, so I can't thank you enough for coming on today. Yeah, thank you guys so much for having me. I really appreciate you guys kind of shining a light on disability and mysteries and in general.
00:27:54
Speaker
And this was really fun. Thank you so much. So for today, thank you for joining us on Clued In Mystery. I'm Brooke. And I'm Sarah. And we both love mystery. Clued In Mystery is produced by Brooke Peterson and Sarah M. Stephen. Music is by Shane Ivers at Silvermansound.com. Visit us online at CluedInMystery.com or social media at Clued In Mystery. If you liked what you heard, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, or telling your friends.
00:28:24
Speaker
you