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Episode 24: What We Owe Our Veterans
106 Plays4 years ago
We speak with Andrew "Doc" Berry, a seasoned psychologist who specializes in working with combat veterans and first responders. We talk with him about what it is really like for veterans, and how we can best recognize and respond to the needs of those who offer great sacrifice and service.
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Transcript
Introduction to Doorknob Comments Podcast
00:00:05
Speaker
Those who are the most wounded, the most damaged get seen first. Hi, thanks for listening to Doorknob Comments. I'm Farrah White. And I'm Grant Brenner. We are psychiatrists on a mission to educate and advocate for mental health and overall well-being.
00:00:20
Speaker
In addition to the obvious, we focus on the subtle, often unspoken dimensions of human experience, the so-called doorknob comments people often make just as they are leaving their therapist's office. We seek to dispel misconceptions while offering useful perspectives through open and honest conversation. We hope you enjoy our podcast. Please feel free to reach out to us with questions, comments, and requests.
Guest Introduction: Andrew Doc Berry
00:00:44
Speaker
It's a pleasure today to have my friend and colleague, Andrew Doc Berry. Andrew Berry is a maverick psychologist and psychoanalyst, and he practices in Niskayuna, New York, which is nearest Schenectady. He is a subject matter expert specializing in PTSD and other mental health needs of veterans and first responders. Thank you for your service and to all of the people you help as well for their service and sacrifice.
00:01:11
Speaker
He has published on this topic as well as lecturing across the country at analytic institutes and both national and international conferences. He was recently elected to the board of the World Federation for Mental Health and is the regional vice president of North America. He is a distinguished practitioner and fellow of the National Academies of Practice, as well as a fellow of the American Board of Clinical Psychology and
00:01:35
Speaker
American Board of Counseling Psychology. He has too many professional degrees to spell out, which include two doctorates, psychoanalytic training at the William Allenson White Institute, and he teaches and lectures. In addition, Dr. Berry is a proud volunteer firefighter with Niskayuna District 2 and emergency medical technician and a Freemason. Welcome, Doc. Thanks, man. Thanks a lot. Good to see you again. Howdy, howdy.
00:02:02
Speaker
Thanks so much for your time and for being here today. I think we're just really interested in hearing about your path, how you got interested. I know
Doc Berry's Background and Empathy for Veterans
00:02:13
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you do a lot of work with veterans, with first responders, what that's been like lately. How did you get to be the person that you are?
00:02:20
Speaker
It wasn't easy. I was raised in Columbia County in a small town and I was not always academically bent, shall we say. I barely scraped out of high school and then went on to do everything that Grant just specified.
00:02:37
Speaker
And the reason for this was, quite frankly, without going into the details, I was fighting a 20-year battle with depression. That kind of, once you've been through something like that, you find yourself able to empathize with others and help others, hence the term the wounded healer. Dad was in New York State Library service for 37 years. Mom was a freelance writer and homemaker, and I'm an only child. When I was growing up,
00:03:04
Speaker
It seemed as though I was surrounded by veterans.
00:03:08
Speaker
My father served stateside during the last year of World War II. He was too young to go overseas and the war was winding down at that point. My maternal grandfather was a combat officer in the army decorated. He was served in Southern Bavaria. I can tell you quite a few of the neighbors were also veterans, largely of World War II and many of Korea and Vietnam. And it's an odd thing to say out loud, but most of the World War II guys are gone.
00:03:38
Speaker
They've aged out there well into their 90s now. And I never thought I'd see the day where that would happen because they seem so eternal and so indestructible. But time marches on. Anyway, I was raised on the stories that they were telling. The stuff that they let me in on wasn't the stuff that you see in the movies. It's not a lot of flag waving stuff. It's about sheer terror. And that made quite an impact on me.
00:04:06
Speaker
For whatever reason, I found as I started getting a little bit more successful in grad school, turning my way through one degree after another
Emotional Depth and Mental Health Support for Veterans
00:04:15
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that
00:04:15
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uh vets and first responders would open up to me they really respond to you i even see it on facebook you know um and it's amazing how available you are just not apologize for interrupting but uh it's touching often you know the things that that people say and how sort of there you are for people and how understood they feel i i do try they do tell me things i've never seen combat i have never seen what those guys have seen and
00:04:44
Speaker
they tell me about these things anyway. Now the significance of that is it's akin to somebody giving you a piece of their soul. And I started thinking about veterans first responders and their emotional needs in terms of national triage.
00:05:01
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for those of us in this profession, especially the mental health profession. I came to understand triage from the television show MASH and the movie MASH, which was hugely impactful on me when I was a kid. Me too, me too. Did you ever see that show Farah?
00:05:18
Speaker
Do yourself a favor. It's one of the reasons I became a doctor and for a little while a surgeon. Yeah and it's one of the reasons why I became the kind of doctor that I am. I'm not a surgeon but I love the lead character Hawkeye Pierce. He's the big brother and uncle and father figure we all wish we could have had when we were growing up in the 70s. Triage is explained as
00:05:43
Speaker
Those who are the most wounded, the most damaged get seen first. And I started thinking about what that means as far as mental health goes. The person I'm about to describe to you could be not just this guy, not the guy I know, but so many others. Grows up in a house with a tough relationship with his parents, joins the Marines, sees combat, gets out of the Marines, goes into the National Guard,
00:06:10
Speaker
sees more combat, comes home, oh and is wounded in combat by the way, then he starts a career in law enforcement. The memory that wakes him up at night still is him getting called to a car fire and there's a girl inside the car burning up and screaming and he can't do anything about it.
00:06:30
Speaker
And then that's the one that wakes him up emotionally. And then there's the physical stuff that he went through being struck by vehicles while on scene, etc. Folks, there are many, many, many people out there who have had those kinds of experience more than we would care to think. And because they are so physically
00:06:51
Speaker
compromised. And he is disabled now. He is 100% out. He's gone. These people need our attention first and foremost. The problem is these people often, all they have is their insurance. They can't afford to pay out of pocket. And that kind of puts psychoanalysts in a position where they are thought of as
00:07:16
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The specialists in diseases of the rich, shall we say. That doesn't do our profession any good.
00:07:24
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wedges a distinction between white collar and blue collar that doesn't need to be there. These are the people who need us the most and often see us the least. They are tended to by people with like maybe one-tenth the level of training and the results are mediocre at best. So anyway, this guy is just emotionally, he sees constantly
00:07:47
Speaker
on patrol in his head like they all are. It's called hypervigilance. He's looking around the room. Even though he and I have worked together for years, he's watching what I do with my hands, my facial expressions.
00:07:59
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Listening any anything that goes by out the window like like a bird or branch a swing in the breeze These are the kinds of things these guys
Impact of Combat on Veterans' Mental Health
00:08:07
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will be paying attention to for the rest of their lives Because if they don't per their training, that's the thing that's going to get them killed Veterans are all around us. Okay, they often come home from these god-awful tours of duty in combat there are many who who do not see combat and
00:08:25
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But then they go into fields such as police work, firefighting, security, emergency medicine, and whatnot. The way you can think about this is to John Q. taxpayer, to whom I am presumably speaking, on the surface it's a lifetime of service to others.
00:08:46
Speaker
On a deeper level, it's a lifetime of trauma. This is an injustice and it's a blatant injustice. Yes, it is. I go so far as to say it's a blatant injustice. I got a big mouth and I fight for them as often as I can. Thanks to the advanced technologies of brain scanning, not just CAT scans, but the stuff that's come out after that, the central nervous system
00:09:13
Speaker
changes over time because of repeated exposure. It's affected. And we are not talking about in terms of they have bad memories of combat.
00:09:24
Speaker
Yeah, that's part of it. Yeah, the wiring is changed, and there's differences in circuit activity. There's much greater activity in the fear centers. Memory is not integrated, meaning that people are not in the present moment, you know, as you're saying, with the hypervigilance like you're somewhere else. And sometimes that's called an invisible wound. Yeah, PTSD.
00:09:48
Speaker
It is. And these guys are going to spend the rest of their lives on super high alert. They are not the same person they were prior to joining.
00:09:57
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and they're not getting anywhere near the level of attention that they need. And this is what my soapbox is here today, and I admit it. I've been honored to work with these guys and as well as first responders, high-caliber individuals who run toward danger, thinking nothing of themselves because they are driven to serve. But there's a huge emotional and physical price that comes along with that.
00:10:22
Speaker
There is no more great, grateful, a patient population than veterans. If you can work your way past the walls of defense, which are there for a good reason and prove your worth, those guys will follow you through hell with a pail of water. The loyalty is, is tremendous and it's, it's very gratifying. The, my consulting room, rather bizarrely decorated though it may be that I'm sitting in right now.
00:10:52
Speaker
I just moved into about three months ago and I had to tell my patients, many of whom were vets and are vets and first responders that I was changing locations. I had several of them offering to help lug and lift heavy boxes of books, furniture.
00:11:09
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one of them offered me his truck. The guys who were in their 70s and their 80s are saying, Doc, you can't lift like you used to, so I'm going to grab a couple of my nephews, my grandsons. We'll all come to end because of ethical reasons. Obviously, you can't accept that, and you explain that to them, and they get it. But when you have experiences like that with these guys with tears welling up in my eyes, who wouldn't want to treat these guys? They are magnificent.
00:11:37
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and they are also emotionally very
A Marine's Christmas Eve: A Life-Saving Story
00:11:39
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fragile and in deep deep levels of pain. A long time ago Christmas and this is a friend of mine not a patient and he's very open about this so I can I can tell this story. It's Christmas Eve. I'm at my in-laws church and my phone goes off in my pocket and lo and behold it's a guy I met on a website a number of years ago. I'd never spoken with him on the phone never met him in person but he liked the stuff that I was writing
00:12:05
Speaker
and the thoughts I was offering about PTSD. I said, hey, man, what's going on? Turns out he and his wife, oh, by the way, just to give you an idea of his background, he served for a grand total of 22 years. He worked his way up to being what's known as a recon marine, also known as reconnaissance. For those who don't know, that's kind of like special forces to the Marine Corps. It's what the SEALs are to the Navy, the Green Beret is to the Army, et cetera, et cetera.
00:12:31
Speaker
that train particularly rigorous and collects for people who are very high, innately, very highly resilient. But in any case, they do things that are, you can't imagine it for most people. For example, I think one of the things that SEALs have to do to finish their training, there were two things I remember among several
00:12:52
Speaker
One is that you have to, with your hands and arms and legs tied together, you have to go up and down 50 times in a swimming pool from the surface to the bottom. And on the last round, you have to pick up a mask and bring it to the surface. And then the final training I think is either 48 or 72 hours in like San Francisco Bay.
00:13:13
Speaker
where you have to stay in the water with a boat right next to you. And if you get out of the boat, which you're allowed to do at any point, you know, you don't finish training. But if you stay in the water the whole time, you know, then you do. So this is the kind of thing that this gentleman has been able to do. Yep. And he came back with a TBI, traumatic brain injury. My phone goes off in my pocket and it's him. I said, what's going on? And it turns out he and his wife and their
00:13:44
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See what I'm doing with my fingers here. Six kids, all his, all hers, one marriage, six kids, were snowbound going up to, for a family get together, heading north. The van started to overheat and being, or malfunction in some way, and being the self-sufficient marine that he is, he pulls over and tries to fix it himself. He pops open the hood, notices that the radiator hose is loose, tries to tighten it down, gets a whiff of antifreeze,
00:14:13
Speaker
And all of a sudden, boom, he's back in Iraq, was a trigger of triggers for hours upon hours of dry heaves, adrenaline blasts, stuff that none of us mere mortals can imagine. You're saying the smell of the antifreeze is a smell that was familiar.
00:14:31
Speaker
Odor is an incredibly powerful memory trigger. So he smelled something pretty much like that years prior to combat and he was flashing back and obviously effectively back there in his mind. He is calling me from the van with a phone in one hand and a gun in the other and his wife and their six kids were across the street in a restaurant wondering if daddy was gonna come out alive. He tried calling everybody else he served with and because it was Christmas Eve, voicemail, voicemail, voicemail, voicemail, voicemail.
00:14:59
Speaker
The last number he had, I was the only one who picked up. I became hyper focused. I became as present as I possibly could with my eyes closed, just trying to imagine his face and so on and so forth. And I kept it simple. I just did a lot more listening than talking. And all I did was de-escalate, de-escalate, de-escalate, de-escalate, de-escalate, de-escalate, calm, calm, calm. And the whole thing took maybe 15, 20 minutes tops.
00:15:25
Speaker
I said to him before we hung up, using much harsher language than I'm using now because that's the only thing that registers with these guys. I said, listen, Schmuck, are you safe? Yeah, doc, I'm safe. And I said, you sure? Because after church, I'm going to be calling you back. And then over the next few days, I'm going to be calling you back. You don't pick up on the first ring. I know where your ass is. I will call down 911 on your head. Do I make myself clear? I just became super directive and whatnot.
00:15:53
Speaker
Well, it's interesting because into my ear, sorry to interrupt, but it almost sounds like you're using military language. Like I'm going to call down 911 on your head. Like I'm going to bring in an airstrike. Pretty much. You do what you have to do to put it in parlance of these guys can understand.
00:16:09
Speaker
and I kept checking up on him over the next few days. I don't know the specifics of what he got for aftercare, but he is still alive, he is still fine, he is still well. Now, summer of 2014, my wife and two kids and I were heading down south to do vacation, where we usually were doing it at the time, and we stopped by to visit the man himself, and we pull in the driveway, the front door pops open, and there he is.
00:16:39
Speaker
He doesn't even say hello. He just grabs my hand and bear hugs me. And then he invites me and my wife and my two kids inside to meet his wife and their 10 kids, 10 children. So, you know, we compared notes about that day, but he calls over the four littlest ones and they're all boys. And he says, you, you, you and you, front and center. So these four little boys dutifully present themselves. Cute little, cute little guys.
00:17:08
Speaker
And my buddy says, so Doc, not only did you save my life that night, you saved theirs too.
Publications and Lectures on Veterans' Mental Health
00:17:17
Speaker
That's one of those moments in my career when I finally realized that apparently I am here for a purpose. And I've just been running with it and running with it and running with it. I have a grand total of one publication. It's the basics of an interpersonal psychoanalytic approach to working with veterans. And as Grant was saying,
00:17:37
Speaker
We've delivered this lecture now 14 times across the country, twice at LA Psychoanalytic, twice at Boston Psychoanalytic at the White Institute, and it keeps going. It seems to work. When I do this presentation, normally, for those of you who don't know, if you do a psychoanalytic presentation, you have a discussant who riffs off whatever your paper happens to be.
00:18:01
Speaker
they like what they don't like etc etc and when i came up with this cockamamie idea back in 2015 i thought why on earth do i want another analyst as a discussant why not get a veteran so i got on the blower
00:18:16
Speaker
with my buddy Nate who served in the Marine Corps 22 years, not the same individual I was talking about before. He received two combat action ribbons. In other words, he survived two wars as well as a bunch of other decorations. And he works in the Pentagon. I said, will you do this with me? And he says, where and when do you want me? It's gone viral. We also did it as a webinar.
00:18:40
Speaker
If people wanted to see it, where would they be able? I have tried to pull it up by doing a general search in YouTube. And for whatever reason, I can't do it. However, I can forward the link on to anybody who's who's interested. And it's not just us presenting, it's other analysts presenting. And it's all about veterans. My our section of it starts
00:19:02
Speaker
like one hour and three minutes into it, but I'd advise anybody watch the whole thing. When we delivered this presentation at the Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy Study Center in New York, one of the founding directors who was my first supervisor during doctorate number one, she hit the nail on the head. She said, what makes, she says you're entirely right to have a veteran as you're discussing because that takes this presentation from being academic
00:19:25
Speaker
cerebral to visceral and experiential. Nate being the kind of guy that he is, he tells everybody, ask me any question you want. If I burst into tears, so what? I do this because I want to help the cause and it's healing for me. And on many occasions, we have had people like wiping their eyes. He starts speaking about his experiences and the experiences of others.
00:19:48
Speaker
And he gets most of the questions, not me, which is exactly the way it should be. I'm just a stagehand around here. And it certainly sounds like it must be very moving, you know, to hear about his experiences. And I'm wondering if there are ever times where it feels kind of like a lot for you and what you do to take care of yourself and how to manage like either any vicarious trauma.
00:20:13
Speaker
I must either have thick skin or just the right constitution for this because as it were I don't think I take it home with me. I cope with what I do and I'm seeing because I live in the world of mangled health. I mean managed health care. That's a joke folks. I'm kidding. Where I'm forced to take insurance payments unfortunately.
00:20:36
Speaker
So I have to see quite a lot of people. I'm cranking out 40 to 45 sessions every week. And as Grant will tell you, he knows me pretty well. I have, shall we say, a sense of humor that goes quite beyond pale. I laugh at people's funerals, up to and including my own parents.
00:20:57
Speaker
Yes, I could tell you stories. Answering fire calls helps, believe it or not. It brings me as close to the heat, no, for once, no pun intended, as I can so I can get as close to that world as I possibly can. When I'm dealing with one of these guys and they are finally telling me stuff that they've kept hidden away for 20, 30, 40 years, it's like every synapse is alive. It feels like I'm right where I'm supposed to be. All I do is just go in and do the thing that I do
00:21:26
Speaker
And the guys tell me they feel better. I'm sure there are other approaches. It's not within my bail. I think it's important for people to hear that because when we are learning about all of these novel ways to treat PTSD, and I know
00:21:47
Speaker
have a very good friend that I trained with in residency who works in the VA system as a psychiatrist. And I really do think that having the connection and feeling like someone cares and bearing witness to what people go through is such an important part of processing trauma.
00:22:04
Speaker
And we also have to remember now, I realize with what I'm about to say, I'm in the presence of two psychiatrists, I get that, but I'm sorry, folks, I don't like the DSM. Neener, neener, neener. PTSD is defined in the DSM and other quote unquote disorders is so narrow and so dry and so devoid of humanity because it goes so much deeper and it goes so much wider.
00:22:29
Speaker
Do you get a lot of defensive reactions though? Do people seem offended if you criticize the DSM definition of PTSD? Once in a while somebody gets a little hirumpy, I suppose, but not as much as it was in the glory days of yesteryear.
00:22:47
Speaker
PTSD was only added to the DSM in 1980. And that was, you know, arguably also an improvement over, you know, not having a concept of it, or maybe calling it the Royal Air Force used to call what we think of now as post-traumatic stress lack of moral fiber. So I'm sure there's pros and cons. But I agree with you, it doesn't capture
00:23:10
Speaker
sort of the depth of what things mean for people. And I'm about to riff off George Carlin here for a minute, when he talks about euphemisms. And one of the things he talks about was the old definition of PTSD, which was from World War I, shell shock, simple, honest, direct language. And then it became operational exhaustion, that safe,
00:23:36
Speaker
distancing dry scientific jargon dehumanizing language and it gets longer and longer and he sees says in his own funny way we're up to eight syllables now but now we've added a hyphen whoopee you know um it doesn't need to be renamed because we think if we if we rename the the condition we're going to change the condition and that's that's just not the case shell shock will do um
00:24:01
Speaker
And when you have seen up close wanting to argue a little bit. Bring it on. Not really. But make a case that where I think diagnosis can be useful is helping to make sure that important you know problems are identified and addressed.
00:24:21
Speaker
I wouldn't have a problem calling it shell shock, but I like that they changed the DSM recently so that it includes now the definition of PTSD. It used to just include re-experiencing symptoms, avoidance and emotional numbing, and hyperarousal, like the hypervigilance, getting angry, but they've included cognitive difficulties and depression.
Critique of DSM's PTSD Definition
00:24:45
Speaker
On one hand, I agree with you. On the other hand, I think if you use it well as a clinician, it's to serve people better and help identify areas that are causing suffering and dysfunction. I'm not saying get rid of it. Just widen it out, for God's sake.
00:25:02
Speaker
I agree. And the European ICD-11, this is, you know, related for people with severe developmental trauma, they have complex PTSD, which is much more similar, you know, what you're describing with combat veterans, complex PTSD,
00:25:18
Speaker
or chronic PTSD is not included in the DSM-5, and it includes these huge effects on a person's life, not just exposure to something really bad. The other thing I'm curious if you are familiar with or if you think is useful or not is the moral injury construct? Very much so. Some people tell me what their feelings are,
00:25:43
Speaker
quite frankly, in plain English about killing. Some of them come back and are profoundly disturbed once it settles in what they had to do to keep themselves alive and their brothers and sisters in battle alive. Others, on the other hand, can live with it.
00:25:59
Speaker
It's the wonderful world of individual differences, at least that's how it was presented to us in grad school 100 years ago. Here in society, you know, these folks are the people we rely on to keep us safe. On the worst days of our lives, the worst days when we find ourselves having to deal 911, the men and women come barreling over the hill
00:26:21
Speaker
sirens, lights and sirens flashing to come to our aid. I agree completely. And what would that look like to you in terms of either expanding services because you're obviously one of the foremost experts and are seeing 40 or 45 people a week and able to make a huge difference, but on a bigger scale, what can you imagine we could do as a country?
00:26:48
Speaker
Well, we have to change our minds about mental health needs. And that's one of the missions, by the way, of the World Federation for Mental Health. And as Grant said, I happen to be a board member. And that is mental health services for all.
00:27:04
Speaker
We here in this country still stigmatize emotional difficulties. I mean, when you're sitting next to somebody on a bus with a broken leg and a visible cast and a cane or a walker, you don't think anything of it. However,
00:27:20
Speaker
When you're sitting next to somebody on a bus who is having a conversation with nobody in a language that's almost impossible to decipher and is mentally, quote unquote, out of it, whatever that may be defined, people start acting like it's a contagion, like it's catching. Like this person's crazy is going to rub off on me. I don't understand. I'm scared. And therefore I need to get away from it.
Societal Stigma Against Veterans
00:27:45
Speaker
That's what I mean when I say stigma, the stigma that vets get, you know, when they come home from combat,
00:27:50
Speaker
They're automatically, oh, one of those crazy veterans, and they are ostracized by their very own countrymen who called upon them to serve to begin with. Houston, we have a problem here. I still remember, I'm from a couple generations ago, where, as I say, veterans were the norm.
00:28:11
Speaker
and veterans were everywhere and looked up to because of, for better or for worse, because of World War II, Korea and whatnot. Those numbers have gone down because there hasn't been an international conflict of that size. They're not as visible as they once were.
00:28:27
Speaker
which adds to people get involved in combat. There's more automation and fewer people playing combat. But I wonder if some of it is also the nature of the conflicts are more morally ambiguous nowadays. Since Vietnam, it was not clear-cut right as World War II or even Korea. I stay out of the politics, quite frankly, because when the military gets sent over to do a job, it's the politicians
00:28:56
Speaker
who send them. It's all about achieving a political objective. I'm not gonna get into that fight because as we've seen over the past several months, several years, politics are bringing out the Jekyll and Hyde in us all. Oh yeah, I described it as that earlier today about the US, but it affects the veterans because the politics change the way people view them. And that's exactly the point. At the end of the day, these guys are coming home
00:29:23
Speaker
not the same people as they were when they went over. So the issue is not the political nonsense and often ineptitude that puts these guys in harm's way. The reality is that we should be focusing on is tending to their needs and giving them the level of respect that they absolutely deserve. I heard General Tommy Franks speak once and he said, what do we owe our veterans? And he said in that
00:29:52
Speaker
and unmistakable voice of his, he says, all there is. And because of the incredible amount of trauma that they've undergone, as well as what they've seen in the civilian world, I tend to agree with that. It's a national shame of sorts. And I hear that's where your mission is. To try to advocate for them, to try to point out that veterans are all around us, it's just because we can't see them doesn't mean they're not there. They are absolutely there.
00:30:21
Speaker
the sense of belonging you know which is so much a part of military training and how that group cohesion can be so easily lost when people you know become civilians again and you know how does the military help transition back and you know that's a longer discussion than we can get into. Sure the last thing that people need to know is
00:30:46
Speaker
The way veterans and first responders are trained is to think of themselves absolutely last. Absolutely last and everybody around them first. Now what this translates into as far as how they are so misunderstood by civilians. When civilians act selfishly with each other,
00:31:06
Speaker
It's damaging and hurtful, but it's nowhere to be true. I'm not trying to diminish that at all, but compared to when veterans see or experience selfishness,
00:31:18
Speaker
The effect on these men and women is visceral. Why? Because of the way they were trained and a nanosecond of selfishness out in the bush can wipe out an entire platoon. That's betrayal, right? It can be experienced, yes, as betrayal, as you thought of yourself instead of everybody else. And now there's a crater where 10 soldiers once were. People need to understand that. Their commitment towards service is so total.
00:31:46
Speaker
And when selfishness takes place, that's why they react as viscerally as they do. And that's one of the many reasons why civilians just don't understand. And that's why also civilians can't say, they just don't get when you get out of the military. Well, that was your training in the military. You're not in the military anymore. Yeah, you are.
00:32:07
Speaker
Most people don't understand that it's a hard bridge to gap because as you started today, you know, war movies tell a very different story. I've done some work with veterans and a lot of work with trauma. There's a couple of books if people want to learn.
00:32:25
Speaker
about veterans experience. Maybe you have some recommendations, but War and the Soul by Edward Ticke is quite good, I think. And there are two books by Lieutenant David Grossman called On Killing and On, which are really tough reads, but On Combat in particular dispels any myths about combat being glamorous. And that's it, you know, just two things. Yes to all the above, I've heard of those authors by all means, but
00:32:53
Speaker
When I try to educate families about why dad is so crazy acting sometimes, quote unquote, crazy, I have them, if they're up to it, sit through the opening beach scene of a movie called Saving Private Ryan. That is the World War II epic of the landing on D-Day on Omaha Beach and Normandy Beach. And it was about as graphic as Steven Spielberg could make it. A lot of guys went and saw it and had to go back into treatment because of what it brought up.
00:33:22
Speaker
And I tell families, this is what goes on in dad's mind, not World War II, but these are the kinds of things that go on in their mind, they can't turn off and that wake them up out of a sound sleep. It's very hard for people to get it if they haven't experienced it, but never want anyone to experience it. But that's the best way I can suggest it. In addition to the reading that you were talking about, about bringing yourself as close to,
00:33:50
Speaker
mom or dad's experience as you possibly can. So it's like, okay, that's what he has to live with. The other thing I'm going to tell you, there's a lot of garbage on Facebook. Gee, I hadn't noticed. But there's a few nuggets that you can that are eternal. I'll try not to take that person.
Challenges in Transitioning to Civilian Life
00:34:06
Speaker
And I'm on there too. And you see the kinds of jokes I post. I know I was reported you to your professional board last week. Thank you. I love you too. Anyhow, it was it was a meme.
00:34:20
Speaker
And it was basically, it was a skull on the top of it. It said, I'm not the knight in shining armor that you wanted. And on the bottom, it says, I'm the monster that you needed. And that right there.
00:34:35
Speaker
is one of the cornerstones of post-traumatic stress disorder is what they had to turn themselves into to stay alive, to follow orders, et cetera, et cetera. And then they got to come back and all of a sudden turn back into a civilian and forget all that ain't going to happen. Thank you for sharing that. It's a hard truth to hear, but it's important to keep saying it.
00:34:58
Speaker
It sounds like this is certainly the most important work. I absolutely agree that the people who need it the most seem to get it, you know, the least. And that's something, you know, that people like you and people in this field are working on changing. So thanks. We do try. Changing people's minds is the hardest thing in the world.
00:35:22
Speaker
I feel similarly about developmental trauma in some ways, and I drew that parallel earlier. From a neuroscientific point of view, some of the imaging studies you were referring to, the brains of combat veterans and the brains of adults who were abused as children have very similar changes in them. There's a sense of living in war is something that you can't understand unless you've lived it,
00:35:47
Speaker
I want to mention ask you know you said you you you said you you're I believe I believe you but I'm a little I'm a little lost for words because it moved but you are a firefighter yeah and an EMT so I wonder if that work comes in with your work with veterans in any way. I undertook it because I mean there's a little kid in me who always wanted to put out a fire you know I I because of the because I have
00:36:15
Speaker
what's known as sarcoidosis. I've got a spot of it in my lung and I can't go in wearing a bottle and be an interior firefighter. Unfortunately, I've been medically disqualified. So I grew the beard back even though I passed all the tests. I'm the exterior fighter. I'm the fat old guy who lugs and lifts ladders and brings equipment around. I'm the one that the public sees and because of the skill set that I've got
00:36:37
Speaker
If I ever am called in to calm down a hysterical homeowner, I'm right where I should be. That's great. I remember when you shaved your beard, but I saw it was that was a true Yeah, this this this is my trademark. Yeah, you're working for you. It's also free dental floss. Oh, like I said, humor gets us through.
00:37:02
Speaker
Definitely. Tom, I have to watch my humor for the podcast, but I'm right there with you. Otherwise, Farrah will have them edit out my comments. You're just no fun at all. Well, in today's environment,
00:37:20
Speaker
cancel culture and you know you've lived with these sort of battling against the bounds of conventionalism you know your whole life as have I I think and that's a whole other story for a different day I think just the how stultifying it can be though it ties in with what you were saying I think about being depressed for a long time
00:37:43
Speaker
You know, I grew up with some of these issues and bullying and just being a bit of an oddball, you know, and being ostracized and stigmatized. And that probably helps us who work with these tough issues to to understand what it's like to be, as they say, othered, you know, to be excluded. T.S. Eliot wrote so many years ago, do I dare disturb the universe? I made quite an impression on me when I read it the first time.
00:38:11
Speaker
And that's exactly what I try to do every day. I am here to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable. I wish you could see your maniacal expression. We will share the dead screenshot. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He's here to help people. Jeez. That's right. Anyway, but it's folks at the end of the day, it's the exceptions who wind up making the rules.
00:38:37
Speaker
Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for being here. And is there a way that people can, I don't know, hear more about what you're doing? Do you have a website or? Find me on Facebook. I'm developing a website. Find me on LinkedIn. Somebody get a hold of Grant. Grant knows how to get a hold of me. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah.
00:38:58
Speaker
Well, we'll share it and we'll share the link with you as well so you can share it with your people. Exactly. Looking forward to it and I appreciate it, folks. Thanks for sharing your message and your personal experience. Glad to be here. Anything for the cause. They deserve it. Have a good day.
00:39:21
Speaker
Thanks for listening to Dornop comments. We're committed to bringing you new episodes with great guests. Please take a moment to share your thoughts. We'd love it if you could leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. You can also find us on Instagram at Dornop comments. Remember this podcast is for general information purposes only and does not constitute the practice of psychiatry or any other type of medicine. This is not a substitute for professional and individual treatment services and no doctor patient relationship is formed. If you feel that you may be in crisis, please don't delay in securing mental health treatment. Thank you for listening.