Transcript
grovehillchurch: Welcome back to the Grove Hill Church podcast. I'm Dan Sanchez, and I'm joined here with Pastor Ridley Barron as we go through the Acts series, the Blueprint series, through the Book of Acts ah in the church. And today you preached out of Acts 8, and there was a lot of awesome points in this sermon, but there's one in particular I can't wait to unpack here on this particular episode, Ridley, because you said a statement that was like, ooh, it was just poignant.
Ridley: Hmm.
grovehillchurch: It was it was powerful. it like you You were almost like, Like asking people to respond and that was you said the words question your salvation And that's the kind of the topic that I want to dive into into the episode But I want to start kick it off with like what what did you mean by that when you said it from the stage?
Ridley: ah The idea of questioning, obviously, I think I said this was was not to make you doubt your salvation because I feel like there's a lot of places where pastor speakers ah unnecessarily cause people to do that. um They ah use that as a, I don't know, an outreach tool, which is not effective. um I believe when someone is genuinely saved and in the middle of God's will, it's really hard to cause them to doubt that because they know they see the results. What I'm asking when I say question your faith is go back to the source of what you you put that hope in. Is it grounded in reality as it's taught from scripture or is it grounded in other ideas, other concepts? Sunday we talked about some misinformation that has been pushed into the church over years. And all of it I think is good intention. I don't think anybody ever sets out to try to
Ridley: to undermine the gospel in the church, but over time, it just kind of moves away from the truth of the gospel. And we start adding things in and taking things out that we don't have permission to take.
grovehillchurch: I mean, I think it's a healthy practice. It's almost like you read the parable of the sower and the seed and you have to ask yourself, you're like, well, what ground am I now? Is that seed taking root in my heart?
Ridley: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: Or has it been sitting there and I think it's taking root in my heart, but really like I'm like one bad storm away from that thing being blown away, you know?
Ridley: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: Or do I have, do I have weeds? We all got some weeds to some degree.
Ridley: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: It's like, but how much of it, you know? Um, or am I good soil? And I think it's a healthy point in every Christian's life to like always
Ridley: one
grovehillchurch: question what kind of soil is your heart right now.
Ridley: Right.
grovehillchurch: um So I want to cover like a bunch of different things that people believe, you some of them you hit in a sermon, some of you didn't.
Ridley: Okay.
grovehillchurch: um But I think I think it's at a normal and healthy, healthy thing that we do as Christians, right?
Ridley: Right, right. And yeah the Bible yeah has a different lot of different ways that it addresses this subject, but I think it's always telling us that we should think about our faith often. Think about our day -to -day life experience with Jesus on a regular basis. I mean, ah you know it says to be prepared in season and out of season, to give a reason for our faith. So if for no ah no other reason, going back to the day you got saved, why you got saved, how you know you were saved, those kinds of questions, if nothing else, if you're prepared to share that story with other people.
grovehillchurch: Yep.
grovehillchurch: There's been a few times in my life where I've been afraid for my life. And it's funny at those kinds of moments, Like it's my natural reaction to be like, like, I don't know, like there's been times where I like kind of thought I was going to like my life. i I might get some turbulence on the plane and there's even been times where I've been bold enough to be like, Hey, I love Jesus so much.
Ridley: Right.
grovehillchurch: Like if it's that moment, like take me home, God, I'm um'm ready.
Ridley: Yep.
grovehillchurch: but honestly those those moments are like the ones where I really thought I might die like one time I was kayaking on a lake and it was a blue sky and then within 20 minutes of me kayaking back over this lake there was thunder and lightning coming down all around me here I am with the metal stick in the middle of a body of water you better believe at that exact moment I wasn't praying like oh god if this is the moment take me home with the smile on my face no I'm like god I'm sorry
Ridley: Oh gosh. Yeah.
grovehillchurch: don't I want to live. I was probably 21 years old. I'm like, I want to get married and have kids and live life.
Ridley: yep Yep.
grovehillchurch: I don't want to die yet. I'm sorry. God forgive me for everything I've ever done wrong.
Ridley: yeah
grovehillchurch: you know I had a real questioning of my salvation in that moment.
Ridley: eight
grovehillchurch: and i was so I was confessing. I was surrendering. I'm like, God, whatever I got to do because it might be my last moment now.
Ridley: That's a great story and I think it's a great, I think a great encouragement to those who are listening. If you're faced with death, like imminently think you're about to die and your first thought is Jesus, there's a pretty good chance you're a Christian. I mean, if your first thought is, I want to be ready for that face -to -face meeting, then I'm pretty sure you're not an atheist or an agnostic or anything else.
grovehillchurch: Yeah.
Ridley: You you have your priorities straight because you're wanting to make sure you're headed in the right direction, you know, that kind of stuff. I don't know. There's lot lots of things that the Bible tells us to look for. The most important, of course, is the fruit that we produce as believers. And that's expressed in the story you just shared. Of course, it's expressed in Galatians with the listing of the fruit of the spirit. so There's lots of places to check your heart.
grovehillchurch: I know that a lot of people have told me cause I've had a similar experience. Like back when left behind was like a really big book and everybody was reading that.
Ridley: Oh, yeah.
grovehillchurch: Like that'll scare you into like having that getting on your bedside and being like, God, I just the double checking here.
Ridley: um Oh, yeah.
Ridley: I haven't
grovehillchurch: We're good. Right. like Cause um I don't want to be one.
Ridley: created this since last night.
grovehillchurch: I don't want to be left behind.
Ridley: Right, right.
grovehillchurch: yeah
Ridley: Yeah, that that book series, especially, man, the movie went so much it was a little hokey. But but the books were really good, and it did.
grovehillchurch: Yeah. Yeah.
Ridley: It causes you to think a little bit, okay, why MSA and I'm saved? What do I base that on? So.
grovehillchurch: This is has nothing to do with this topic, but I have to tell it anyway, but you know how some people go to the movie theaters by themselves?
Ridley: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: You ever done this before?
Ridley: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: I I've only done it one time and my first time I was in a city at a conference I didn't know all everybody I knew there was busy and I had nothing to do I was so bored and I was wandering around a mall and I go to the movie theater and there's no good movies the only movie That was playing that I was like, maybe maybe it'll be okay It was left behind with Nicolas Cage and I'm like, well, I like Nicolas Cage.
Ridley: and
grovehillchurch: So I go to this movie I'm literally the only person in there
grovehillchurch: Watching the movie left behind. It's the most ironic. I've never done it again I was like mortified to be there, but I was so bored. I couldn't leave so
Ridley: So you're thinking the rapture occurred before I walked into the theater and here I am all by myself.
grovehillchurch: I felt like I got left behind because I was just by myself and that the first time I'd gone to see a movie by myself was left behind and it never happened again.
Ridley: Oh, that's great.
Ridley: Now.
grovehillchurch: So let's cover some of the things you mentioned from the stage, but I want to get into them even deeper, things that Christians believe or people that are like think they're Christians believe that might actually indicate that you haven't wrestled you through a salvation. Like you might need to talk somebody about your salvation and actually come to a moment of like, Hey, like, I don't know if I'm there help coach me. Like what, what does it actually look like to get there? And we'll talk about it in this podcast. But one of them is the, probably the most classic one of all time, especially here in the South is how do you know you're going to heaven?
grovehillchurch: Well, I'm a good person.
Ridley: Good person, yep, yep.
grovehillchurch: I'm a good person.
Ridley: All the way back in the Old Testament before we even knew what salvation by faith in Jesus Christ was, they began to address this issue by saying your best acts are like filthy rags compared to the righteousness that is expected. um Yeah, I mean, all of us, and the Bible tells us very clearly have fallen shadow ah short of God's glory and even Paul who was the the super saint above super saints talked in Romans seven about this reality that even even though he knew that he was in a relationship with Jesus Christ, that he was following after Jesus, that even those moments, he had bad choices, bad behaviors, inappropriate actions, those kinds of things. And so um if it's it's based on our goodness, um yeah, you're never gonna get that level. And then the flip side of that that causes a lot of concern too is if if it's earned,
Ridley: by your good actions that means it can be lost by your bad actions.
grovehillchurch: There's this whole evangelism technique. I can't remember what organization this is, but they essentially go and, I feel like they're witnessing to people who are just nominal Christians because they always ask like, they always go around with the microphone and this is, that you watch their videos, you can find them somewhere. I'll find it in the show notes and link to it. But they like ask like, oh, like, are you going to heaven? And they always say, yeah, sure.
Ridley: ah
grovehillchurch: Well, why is that? Well, I'm a good person. Okay. Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen? even ah Even a piece of gum?
Ridley: Mm -hmm.
grovehillchurch: Yes, okay. Have you ever looked at a man or a woman in lust? ever. And they're like, well, ah yes, yes, yes.
Ridley: Yeah, right.
grovehillchurch: And then there was quote scripture behind it. It's like, well, Jesus said that ah even if you've looked at a woman with lust, like you've committed adultery. So essentially they get them to say like, well, according to you, you're a, you're a lying, stealing, adulterer at heart, murder, murder at heart, because you know, you've you've been angry and that's that in their hearts considered murder, right?
Ridley: Yep. Mm -hmm.
grovehillchurch: You know, He's like, so why would God let you into heaven? And then they're like coming to a realization like, oh, like maybe I don't understand how this works.
Ridley: I had a seminary professor <unk>ary professor who did the same thing to us.
grovehillchurch: And then they preach the gospel, right? Yeah.
Ridley: He said, ah you know let's get things straight right from the very beginning. Every one of you have broken every one of the 10 commandments at some point in your life. And you know immediately some of the ah deeper thinkers over there are going, no, no, they know I've never done such and such. He goes, like you said, have you ever have you ever not paid the full price for something because somebody charged you incorrectly and you didn't go back for it? That's stealing.
grovehillchurch: Yep.
Ridley: And so, yeah, he works his way through it.
grovehillchurch: Yep.
Ridley: and And by the end, you're going, you know what? According to God's standards, I have broken every one of those commandments, most of them multiple times. So, yeah.
grovehillchurch: Yeah. I mean, it doesn't matter whether you're Hitler or Mother Teresa, like everyone's fallen short and it's not like a lot short, like, I mean, a little short, it's like a lot short, right?
Ridley: Yep. Yep.
Ridley: Oh, yeah.
grovehillchurch: So it's kind of like, we're all, we're all missed it.
Ridley: Right.
grovehillchurch: So hence, hence the need for the perfect one to do it.
Ridley: The truth is that most of us probably don't make it through a full day without doing something that's less than the standard of holiness that God really really deserves from us.
grovehillchurch: Yeah.
Ridley: ah Whether it's speeding, you know, florida how many times a week I caught speeding, or getting angry at somebody in traffic, just all kinds of things.
grovehillchurch: Yeah. I remember once running into a theology of sinless perfection, which some people believe you can actually achieve a state of being sinless.
Ridley: Really?
grovehillchurch: Cause like, it's kind of, have you ever never heard this before?
Ridley: No, no.
grovehillchurch: Like this idea of like, well, can you go 30 seconds without sinning? And you're like, Oh, I guess I could sit and do nothing for 30 seconds. So sure.
Ridley: Right?
grovehillchurch: And the logic goes on like, well, then can you live without sinning?
Ridley: Mm -hmm.
grovehillchurch: You know, um, when you're 20, you're like, Oh, maybe there's some churches that believe this, but obviously like,
Ridley: Oh.
grovehillchurch: like Paul talks about, work like working out your salvation with like a fear and like almost like a wrestle because that sin never fully goes away until the moment you die and become perfect, perfected.
Ridley: Yes, yes, yeah.
grovehillchurch: So am I a good person? Not enough to be saved.
Ridley: Right, right.
grovehillchurch: Nobody is. Uh, next one is I prayed the prayer. I prayed the prayer. I've heard, I mean, I hear people quote this a lot, even thinking for other loved ones that they know, maybe they passed and that's like the one hope they have. Like, well, they prayed the prayer 10 years ago, but we all know that that person didn't, you know, they didn't, they didn't live the life a Christian would live if they had actually converted.
Ridley: Yeah, yeah. Okay.
grovehillchurch: it
Ridley: This is an area where I try not to put too much stock in deathbed conversions either. um I'm not going to discredit them, but I don't think just praying a prayer really does the trick.
grovehillchurch: Really? Yeah.
Ridley: um they're There's this whole realignment of your lives that comes under submission of the Lordship of Christ.
grovehillchurch: Yeah.
Ridley: And so laying into bed in your last 30 seconds, you may or you may not really sincerely believe there's a God. You may be just trying to get your, you know, get out of jail free card by praying that prayer. The Bible never talks to us about praying a prayer. Never list a prayer. It never gives us any model prayer to pray for conversion experiences. It always talks about believing what Christ has done for you, repent of your sin, and receive the gift He's given you. And so there's ah it's a little bit more elaborate than just, hey, walk an aisle, pray a prayer.
grovehillchurch: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the thief on the cross is the one often pointed to as like, well, like he did a deathbed conversion, even though he was hanging rather than laying.
Ridley: Right.
grovehillchurch: But ultimately, like you still even see the signs in him of like, he's repentant, like he knows he's done wrong.
Ridley: Yeah, right.
grovehillchurch: And he's confessing that Jesus is Lord. You know, you're like, you see, is as short a time as it is, like you see the guy walk through the full cycle and just a few sentences.
Ridley: Yep.
Ridley: Mm -hmm. Absolutely.
grovehillchurch: um So it's possible but again, you got to come back to that that repentance part is the part that people I don't know what it is pride.
Ridley: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: I've even seen pride in old age kind of like well, ah i I Am the way I am I think is the term I've i've heard before
Ridley: Yeah. yeah ah you know I'm fascinated by these, you see them sometimes on Facebook or you might read them in a book or whatever, these recountings of famous people's last words before they die. And you see exactly what you're talking about there, Dan. You'll see some people who, man, you know they knew Jesus because in those last moments of their lives, the things they're talking about are the strong desire to be with him and the strong desire to spend eternity with him and just how excited they are to see him face to face.
Ridley: Then you get stories on the other extreme of people who are pride who are proud, who are saying that God never had me when I was alive and they won't have me when I'm dead and just things like that. But in between are the ones where the gray area are is for me, where people just, yeah again, you feel like they're almost praying a prayer to get an insurance card to make sure they're covered. And I don't think that God honors that at all. But I don't, again, I don't discredit the fact that there are some people who maybe resist all their lives and for whatever reason, when they get faced with their mortality at the very end, go, you know what, I was stupid. You know, I pray God will forgive me at this moment. So.
grovehillchurch: So very possible, very real. And if you have a loved one that's near the end of of life, it's still worth praying for them, pursuing them, going after them because it could, it could turn.
Ridley: Yes, yes. Mm hmm. Absolutely. It's not over till it is over.
grovehillchurch: Another common one, though, I don't, I don't see this in Grove Hill a lot, but it, it, because it's so prominent in today's culture that there probably is a person or two that believes this is essentially universalism.
Ridley: Oh, yeah.
grovehillchurch: Jesus is only one way to get to this eternal paradise.
Ridley: Yeah. Mm hmm.
Ridley: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: Christians call it heaven, other people call it nirvana. It's just one way.
Ridley: Right.
grovehillchurch: I happen to be on this path, but other people aren't other paths.
Ridley: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: can Honestly, can you really believe that you, are you unsaved if you really believe the gospel kind of in your head, but you're lying to yourself because they would disprove that but and still believe that like Allah and Hinduism and all those other ways lead to salvation.
Ridley: So here's my gut reaction to that question. If I say that I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and then turn around and call him a liar by saying there's some other way to get to God, then I don't really believe in Jesus Christ.
grovehillchurch: That's kind of what I thought.
Ridley: you know i Basically what I'm saying is I believe in the Jesus that I have rewritten into the image I want him to be.
grovehillchurch: Like, yeah.
grovehillchurch: Yep.
Ridley: um How cruel would it be of God to tell millions of people that Jesus is the only way they can get into heaven and then go to some other part of the world and go, just kidding, over here it's this way, you know? um So i i I choose, you and I both do, choose to believe that Jesus is the only way and that's part of the reason why he had to come and do what he did, ah to to enlighten us to that one way. Now the concern, and you brought this up, that you don't see much of this at Grove Hill, and I hope that's because we emphasize this over and over again, the concern is that a lot of the mainline denominations that used to believe that way have opened themselves up to this belief that at the end of the day, God just loves everybody and everybody's going to make it because God's love is that big. Which I don't deny God's love is that big, but they forget the just side of him that requires some kind of consequence for the sins we have, you know?
Ridley: And that's where the whole theory breaks down.
grovehillchurch: i My God, I don't know, some people are mad because you're like, well, God isn't very forgiving, is he? You're like, well, actually, he's extremely forgiving.
Ridley: Yes.
grovehillchurch: You just haven't even accepted it and shown that you really believe in it.
Ridley: Yeah, right.
grovehillchurch: um
Ridley: So the difference between the two theories, I think, in my head as I play this out is You start at one of two extremes. If you believe that God owes humanity something and that we are where we are, then you believe that God is not very forgiving if he sends people to hell because he owed us in the first place. But if you start from the other end, which is the perspective which scripture teaches us, that we didn't deserve anything we had in the first place and that every breath we've ever taken we owe to him, Then you realize what you just said, it's not that he's not very forgiving, it's that he's amazingly forgiving and we refuse to take the forgiveness he gives us.
grovehillchurch: I know people want to draw him, like write him off as harsh. And I'm like, well, one, he's God.
Ridley: Right, right, right.
grovehillchurch: So he can kind of do what he wants. I mean, like, who are you to argue with God?
Ridley: Yeah, exactly.
grovehillchurch: His ways are hard in our ways, like an ant trying to understand physics. It's just going to get to happen. um But it's at the same time, I'm like, as as hard as the line as he's drawn, he's it's like the most lenient thing. Like he's giving us some, like, i I don't know what more you can ask for.
Ridley: right but Do you think we somehow have made a, and I know my opinions on this, but do you think we've made this too easy to downplay the sovereignty of God by becoming too friendly with God, that we've removed our fear and awe of who he is and what his character looks like? And so because everybody's all anxious to call him their friend, they forget he, at the end of the day, he's still holy and he's still God.
grovehillchurch: It's God.
Ridley: um
grovehillchurch: Yes, I definitely think that's happened.
Ridley: when i When I coached high school football, I had a kid come to me one day and he just lit into me. Kid wasn't very good. I appreciated his effort, but he just wasn't very good. And he lit into me and said he didn't like me and didn't think I liked him and bobh blah, blah, blah, blah. And after I let him go on for a couple of minutes, I finally looked at him. I said, you know, I appreciate you sharing that, but at the end of the day, I'm still the coach and you're still not going to start, you know? In other words, I still have the authority. I don't i don't care what you think of me. i don't I don't care if you like me. I don't care if you think I'm funny. I don't care if you think I'm your best friend. At the end of the day, I make decisions based on what I need to do as a coach. God, because of his character, makes decisions based on what his character is, not on our character, but on his character. And at the end of the day, whether you like him or love him or hate him and despise him, he's still God.
grovehillchurch: We've definitely lost touch with the the thing that's called the reverence, right?
Ridley: a Yes.
grovehillchurch: And the casualty and sometimes I do miss like in some other denominations, especially like Catholicism, like there's this as a significant amount of reverence and the even in the buildings they build and the way they dress and the way they handle things.
Ridley: Yep.
grovehillchurch: There's traditional, like just traditions that show like this significant amount of reverence for a holy God that I'm like, the Protestants have kind of gotten away with that.
Ridley: Mm hmm.
grovehillchurch: And then while there's something beautiful about the simplicity, and I, I just love the fact that we're in a, in a roller skating rink, converted for the glory of God, you know, ah even though it's too small for the size of our congregation, as part of me misses, misses some of that aspects to the reverence that is given to God and in those places too.
Ridley: I agree. I think there's probably in every faith tradition, there are some things we can learn from each other regarding reverence versus, you know, being cold and stoic. I mean, that's not healthy either. I do think there's there's obviously evidence in the scripture that God says he desires to be our friend and welcomes us into an intimate relationship.
grovehillchurch: Yep.
Ridley: But at the end of the day, he's still got this incredibly holy nature about him that we dare not approach.
grovehillchurch: You know, the fear of the Lord is something something to think about, as if you're not every once in a while i' becoming fearful over how powerful and how holy is and like, when's the last time you were like scared and in a good way, you know?
Ridley: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
grovehillchurch: um
Ridley: For you, it was in a kayak on the river.
grovehillchurch: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: There happened to re -end recently. Again, another thunderstorm and I'm in a jacuzzi.
Ridley: Oh.
grovehillchurch: And it's like hailing and I'm like under the cover of it.
Ridley: You need to be checking the weather before you get into these bodies of water.
grovehillchurch: and Trying to be brave. No, it was like that before I got in. I did it as because it just seemed adventurous.
Ridley: Okay.
grovehillchurch: And then as you're in there, you're like, I'm questioning my judgment right now. That happened a month ago, but you know.
Ridley: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: Let's see, moving on to the next one. Once we're saved, we're always saved, right?
Ridley: Yes. Yes.
grovehillchurch: There's kind of two different ways to look at that.
Ridley: Right. And I think we can lean on that so much so that we never really get saved in the first place. We test the grace of God by going, okay, umm I'm saved and I'm just going to go do whatever I want to. Well, then, okay, then you got to take that one step further. Then you never really submitted to the Lordship of God. If you're willing to. casually you approach that sin, that sin nature. But yeah, um I believe that since your salvation is not earned by your behavior, it's earned by God's complete work through Jesus on the cross, then once you receive that, it sure is forever.
Ridley: um you know that Then that gets into the whole question of what about the guy who says he's a Christian and commits mass murder? you know Everybody always says those hypothetical situations and y 'all want to go, Can you really point to one situation where a guy actually he said, I followed Jesus, and he did that legitimately, and then turned around and and did that?
grovehillchurch: Yeah.
Ridley: i mean But you know I believe that there are cases, like in Jesus' story with the prodigal, where true believers wander away for periods of time, get removed in their relationship with him. I do think there will be consequences for that in heaven. I don't know what that looks like. I don't know if that means that instead of getting the job you were originally going to have, then you're going to hand it some less glamorous job in heaven. I don't know. Or some jewel that you don't get in your crown to give to God. I don't know what those look like, but I do believe that um even after being a follower of Jesus Christ, there's still some sense of we're watching your behaviors and and your obedience and how much you're following after Jesus, and there will be rewards for for those things in heaven.
grovehillchurch: It's funny, the hypothetical situations are interesting to me just because I find the reason why you even have hypothetical situations is to test an idea.
Ridley: Mm -hmm.
grovehillchurch: you're trying to find the boundaries, you're trying to find the edge of where this idea begins and where it ends.
Ridley: Yep.
grovehillchurch: So, I mean, I think that's why people throw those out there, to really like figure out where the edge is. um But yeah, there's there's lots of situations out there.
Ridley: Oh,
grovehillchurch: I mean, you just look at the Crusades and you you got some interesting things going on there. I mean, people like shun the Crusades a lot, but I'm like, dude, like the Muslims were killing way and more people than the Christians than they report on in history.
Ridley: oh yeah.
grovehillchurch: Like it was brutal.
Ridley: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: And they would have even stopped had they not kept advancing up. And they're like, whoa, like like you're getting into Europe now. like Stop. um But like were those guys saved? Some of them.
Ridley: Yeah, yeah ah yeah, I agree.
grovehillchurch: Some of them probably not. I don't know. there's In and our hypothetical scenario, I feel like only God knows where people crossed the line and because he's got perfect knowledge of these things.
Ridley: And we're very much like kids. my My grandson's at our house right now and just last night I asked him to do something for me and he started to walk away and I called his name and he took one more step, looked back over his shoulder and I said his name one more time and he took one more step and I just was thinking about that whole image here. Those hypotheticals are us taking one more step to see how far God will allow us to go, you know.
grovehillchurch: Yeah.
Ridley: What what what are the real boundaries here? and That's a dangerous game to play um you know when it comes to God and and His grace for us.
grovehillchurch: It is
Ridley: His his grace is balanced. It's endless. No doubt about that. And it lasts forever. But there's also that place where His justice enters in. And He says, because I love you, there will be consequences for those choices.
grovehillchurch: Another thing I think about often with the once saved always saved is that whole phrase even comes from like the more Calvinistic side of theology, right? Which would say like God calls you and elects you like i irresistibly.
Ridley: Uh -huh.
grovehillchurch: So once you're saved, like he's not going to let you go because he chose you, right?
Ridley: Uh -huh.
grovehillchurch: So that's one side of theology.
Ridley: Like.
grovehillchurch: And if you end up falling away, then that theological side would just say you're never saved like you just said.
Ridley: Uh -huh.
grovehillchurch: And the other side, they would say, you probably can lose your salvation. you um are The more Armenian side, these are the two sides of the debate, where I think it gets dangerous.
Ridley: Uh -huh. Yep.
grovehillchurch: And like either side's fine, because at the end of the day, like like the outcome's the same.
Ridley: Uh -huh.
grovehillchurch: Whether you were never saved or you you lost your salvation, you're like fine. like Either way, we agree that someone who's, for a significant period of time, been walking anti walking anti with what the Scripture says is probably not going to be in heaven.
Ridley: Yeah, right.
grovehillchurch: Great. It's the people in between that concern me the most, where they're claiming, once saved, always saved, even for the people who have walked away.
Ridley: Yeah, yeah.
grovehillchurch: Right? That's the scary place, but that's, I've found a lot of people, I believe that.
Ridley: Yeah, and, you know, so many times gosh, I can't I can't even begin to count how many times in my ministry years where I've had conversations with mothers and grandmothers, it seems to be a ah lot of them, where they'll talk about children or grandchildren who've gone wayward and they'll go, but you know, we just hold on to the truth. Once saved, always saved. And um most of the time I've been too scared to say, but do you know for sure he was saved?
grovehillchurch: Yeah Yeah Yeah,
Ridley: I mean, where's the evidence that he was saved in the first place? If you're if you're holding out again that he prayed a prayer sometime, that may not be enough. It may not be enough. There has to be some place where he literally legitimately submits himself to the authority of God.
grovehillchurch: yeah I mean once saved always saved isn't a verse it's not it's not in scripture and I think most people will lean on
Ridley: Right.
grovehillchurch: ah Romans 8 you know like no one nothing can separate us from God's love not this or that or spiritual principalities all that kind of stuff yeah yeah
Ridley: Yeah. Neither height nor depth. but yeah Absolutely. Yeah, and the fact that he holds us in the palm of his hand. I used to hold on to that illustration all the time when my student physics minister used to say that, hold us in the palm of his hands. and Can you get anything out of the palm of my hands? I get that image and I understand that value of that, but man, you better make sure you were in the palm.
grovehillchurch: Yeah. And the more Armenian tradition will say like, well, you can walk out and the Calvinist would be like, no, he said nothing.
Ridley: yeah That's right.
grovehillchurch: You know, and that's where that debate goes. And you're like, okay, guys.
Ridley: Yep, yep.
grovehillchurch: Um, either way, if I think at at the end of the day, if the point, the point to be made is if you're acting out of accordance of scripture and you have been, and you're not repentant at all, and it's gone on for a while, it's kind of like, it's hard to think that you have salvation.
Ridley: Right, right. And people like to use the phrase willful, deliberate sin, but the truth is just about 90 % of all sin is willful and deliberate. Even for those of us who are true followers of Jesus Christ, I can think of very few times where I didn't go, and I know what I did was a sin. I know what I did was selfish. I know what I did was me not controlling my patience, my impatience or my anger. you know Yeah, it may have slipped out, but I had ah let it go, you know, um without turning back very quickly to say, God, i I need your forgiveness. I did something wrong. Pride's a big, big issue there.
grovehillchurch: I think that's the big thing. If you still stumble and fall and you're wrestling with something and you're, watch and now you're like, Oh, am I saved because I'm wrestling with something? I'm like, if you hate it and you hate that you do it and you still do it, but you hate it and you're still trying to get back on. I think that's a good sign.
Ridley: yeah
grovehillchurch: Like if you keep stumbling, it's kind of like, okay, but yeah, but do you hate it? Like, do you hate that you keep stumbling?
Ridley: The key word there is wrestling.
grovehillchurch: Yeah.
Ridley: Are you wrestling?
grovehillchurch: Yeah.
Ridley: If you're resisting, then that' that's the Holy Spirit working in you to try to keep you back on the right path.
grovehillchurch: Yeah.
Ridley: But man, if you're giving in, if you're choosing it, if you're seeking ways to do it, you know.
grovehillchurch: If you've given up the fight, not a good sign.
grovehillchurch: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: So, two more. One is, ah no, actually just one more. And this one's controversial, but this might, might I don't know if this is conviction.
Ridley: Uh -oh.
grovehillchurch: I think you agree with me on this, but it's often the marker I use for whether someone's actually actually a Christian.
Ridley: Okay.
grovehillchurch: And that's if they're actually going, actively going, participating in a church.
Ridley: Now.
grovehillchurch: It could be a home church, but generally like, are they going to church? That's when I, when I checked back on my friends, like from my, my Christian gap year program or people that I went to college with. I, and I'm talking to other friends about another, a third party friend.
Ridley: Hmm.
grovehillchurch: I'm like, well, do they still go to church? That's like my, do they still believe? Cause it's, it's an outward marker, but it shows a lot.
Ridley: I think it does. I mean, first of all, it shows obedience to the the lordship of Christ because in Hebrews, he specifically says in a command, don't forsake the assembling of yourselves together.
grovehillchurch: Yeah.
Ridley: But even more extensively throughout the New Testament, we are told to do things to one another for one another because of our love for Christ. So because I love Dan Sanchez, I'm going to help bear his burdens and pray for him. because I love Dan Sanchez or because I love Jesus and love Dan Sanchez, I'm going to serve him when he has needs. Those are the kinds of things you can't do if you're not in the body of Christ serving alongside of each other and doing church together, doing life together is the phrase we like to use. So, right.
grovehillchurch: It's one of those general things. It's not like a specific thing where if like in the Catholic church, like if you miss a Sunday, you better go and confess it, you know, and get back back on track as yeah lightning hits you, you're in trouble.
Ridley: Right.
Ridley: Yeah. If you miss, if you miss a couple of Sundays around our church, you're not going to catch me or most most of our leadership even picking up the phone and calling you going, where were you?
grovehillchurch: You know.
Ridley: You know, that's not the kind of thing we're talking about.
grovehillchurch: Yeah.
Ridley: What I am talking about is if I haven't seen you in six or seven weeks, I'm going to probably call and check on you. I'm going to go, Hey, what's going on? You know, what's happening? Why haven't we seen you? Uh, and that's even not out of a judgment. That's a man has something going on in your life where you need some people to walk alongside of you. What's, what's hindering you. But man, if I haven't seen you in three months, and this is probably, this is gonna cause somebody listening to this mouth to chop open, I'm not gonna pursue you. Because if you're a Christian, you should know what you're supposed to be doing. And if you don't know what you're supposed to be doing, then we're in a different kind of conversation. It's not a where have you been, it's a why don't you have a relationship with Jesus? Because what you've been pretending to do is not real.
grovehillchurch: I have a lot of friends, a a lot of millennials for some reason that are, they're genuine in their faith and their belief. And they, they actually do like they have devotional time still, but they don't, they don't go to church.
Ridley: Mm hmm.
grovehillchurch: They don't participate in anybody. They don't even have like a real home church, though they hang out with Christian friends sometimes.
Ridley: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: This is a common thing. And I always challenge them. I'm like, dude, like you need to be a part of a body and in a more, let's say official, but like in a more. I don't know, ah like in some in some kind of way, in some kind of committed way, just like you are in a family, you're not really part of the family if you're not really participating in it, or it's just kind of loose and casual.
Ridley: Right.
grovehillchurch: like it's it's like it's more It's more like a marriage, right? Where you have commitments made, and we give and take, and a lot of people have church hurts and things and reasons why they don't go to church anymore.
Ridley: Yep.
grovehillchurch: But I'm like, I don't know, do we not have hurts from marriage?
Ridley: Yeah, exactly.
grovehillchurch: Absolutely. But we have to work through it. This is part of the process. This is why we go to church is to learn these things because through those hurts and pains and processes, God uses it to refine our own heart. That's how I've thought about it anyway.
Ridley: And I think it's a great point right there, Dan, because that's, that's what doing life together really is kind of all about. It's kind of like, um, this refining process, and you know the Old Testament uses the words iron sharpens iron. Well, that's really true. It's the rubbing up against each other of the two hearts and souls of two different people, multiple people, so that what you do that normally would irritate me, I'll learn as a Christian to be graceful and merciful with those things. Likewise, for me, things that I do that you don't quite understand, we learn to work through those things together, and in the end, the process,
Ridley: Learn how to encourage and love and support each other with our uniquenesses and our different personalities, our different talents.
grovehillchurch: So if you're listening to this and you're, i we've sown some seeds of like, huh, I wonder if I'm saved. Good. Ask the question.
Ridley: Yes.
grovehillchurch: Wrestle with it.
Ridley: Yes.
grovehillchurch: Um, if you're really wrestling with it, you know, bring somebody into it, like be part of the body, be part of the church, wrest like we can wrestle in community together, you know, pull your spouse into it or pull your friends into it. Come, come to your life group or just show up on next Sunday morning and ask, ask someone about it.
Ridley: Right.
grovehillchurch: Um, and have them pray with you. Wrestle with it together. Um, and it's in that wrestling that I find that we, we become more like Christ.
Ridley: Yeah.
grovehillchurch: I mean, that's why Israel, you know, is just the wrestle with God. That's why Jay, they changed Jacob's names because he wrestled with God.
Ridley: Right.
grovehillchurch: And I find that that's, that's kind of the point we wrestle with God.
Ridley: Yeah.
Ridley: and but And we said this, we said this before we came online, Dan, I think it's important to reiterate here. If there is even one ounce of doubt that you have a full relationship with Jesus Christ, it's worth having a conversation with somebody to to settle that issue.
grovehillchurch: Oh yeah.
Ridley: Because First John, the whole book of First John was written so that we might know that we have a relationship with Jesus. It matters to God, so it should matter to us.
grovehillchurch: Absolutely. like So thanks for listening to Grove Hill Church podcast. We try to impact the life of every person with the whole gospel by any means possible, including making episodes like this. So hopefully you're wrestling, share it with somebody who you know might be wrestling and let's continue to be more like him.
