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Theology of Suffering: What It Is & Why It's So Important
34 Plays3 days ago
In this episode, Dan Sanchez and Pastor Ridley Barron take a deep dive into the themes of the Book of Job, exploring suffering, biblical wisdom, and spiritual growth through life's challenges. They discuss the Bible’s literary genres and how understanding them can shape our reading of scripture, the cyclical nature of Job's conversations, and why suffering is both a central theme in Job and an often misunderstood aspect of Christian theology. Along the way, they reflect on personal experiences, the role of discipline in preparing for hard times, and how God’s purposes may not always align with our desire for happy endings but are ultimately for His glory.
Timestamps:
00:01 Dan and Ridley introduce the episode and reflect on audience feedback.
00:51 Exploring Bible genres and their role in understanding scripture.
06:12 The Book of Job and how it addresses the problem of suffering.
11:05 Job’s story, suffering, and questioning God through personal tragedy.
19:18 The value of struggle: voluntary suffering, discipline, and growth.
27:22 The role of community and fresh perspectives in breaking cyclical thinking.
33:12 Job’s ending vs. real-life outcomes and finding God’s purpose in suffering.
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Transcript
Podcast Format Experimentation
00:00:01
Dan Sanchez
Welcome back to the Grove Hill Church podcast. I'm Dan Sanchez and I'm joined by a Ridley Baron. And we're gonna be trying out a a, not a new format, an old format, but trying it out again with just the two of us to see if we can dive deeper into a topic. So if you're listening, tell us what's what's working better when we have more of us here on the podcast or when it's just the two of us, maybe three, maybe we have a guest every once in a while. We'd love feedback if you see us on Sunday or on Wednesday or anywhere else.
00:00:28
Dan Sanchez
us know how youre how this is going for you. Because again, feedback is the breakfast of champions and we want to be
00:00:35
Ridley
That's
Exploring the Book of Job
00:00:35
Dan Sanchez
champions around here.
00:00:36
Dan Sanchez
So today I had i asked just for Ridley today because I had so many questions to dive into that I'm like, um um I'm not going to get them all. And i selfishly, I just want to ask all my questions to you, Ridley, about the Book of Job and the sermon from this last Sunday.
00:00:36
Ridley
right.
00:00:50
Dan Sanchez
So Job is a long book, one that we don't usually read because it's I mean, it's a long book and it's kind of becomes a repetitive book other than the first like two chapters and maybe the last chapter.
00:01:00
Ridley
yeah
00:01:00
Dan Sanchez
But still, I find is one of those books that there's there's little gems hidden throughout the thing. The theme I feel like is not covered enough. we're going to be
Bible Genres and Their Significance
00:01:10
Dan Sanchez
diving into that.
00:01:10
Dan Sanchez
But I want to first kick it off with the you opened it up in a really interesting way around Bible genres. And you had a number of different genres, some of which I had heard before, but I'd never actually seen them all side by side.
00:01:24
Dan Sanchez
And I think you had what is nine eight different genres for the Bible.
00:01:28
Ridley
Yeah.
00:01:29
Dan Sanchez
And if you weren't there for the Sunday, I'll just repeat them real quick. There is narrative, law, prophecy, poetry, wisdom, gospels, epistles, and apocalyptic.
00:01:40
Dan Sanchez
And that pretty much constitutes the whole Bible. But anytime someone gives me a category system or a taxonomy of some kind, I meet my brain. I don't know what it is, Ridley. I just end up looking for like the exceptions.
00:01:52
Ridley
Yeah.
00:01:52
Dan Sanchez
I'm like, well, what about? So I'm going to ask
Lamentations and Poetic Genres
00:01:55
Dan Sanchez
about some of those exceptions.
00:01:55
Ridley
OK.
00:01:56
Dan Sanchez
so and And then I have a follow-up question. But where where do you put the Book of Lamentations? Because that was the one book. I'm like, at what where do you put that one?
00:02:05
Ridley
If I had to classify it in those eight, I would create a subheading under poetry and call it lament, I mean, for for lack of a better term. I think the idea behind poetry is not necessarily, again, that it's the way we think of modern poetry, but it is writing that purposely, intentionally engages our emotions in our response to God and lament, you know, a
00:02:26
Dan Sanchez
Yeah.
00:02:30
Ridley
We don't talk about lament very much in the modern church today and the role it plays for people who go through suffering, but that book, that's a beautiful book when you get into it. So.
00:02:40
Dan Sanchez
Important book. I'm going to take a note real quick and make sure that we have covered that because that one's a short one, right? It's four chapters.
00:02:46
Ridley
Oh, yeah. Year four chapters. Yeah, that's.
00:02:48
Dan Sanchez
Yeah, it's really short, but like because we're reading so much, that one can get missed, but we're gonna have to make sure to come back, swing back around to the importance of grieving and grievance and limitations.
00:02:53
Ridley
Yeah, absolutely. Yep.
00:02:59
Dan Sanchez
so But that's another podcast for another day. And I have to ask, like what are there books that
Complex Genre Crossover in Bible Books
00:03:04
Dan Sanchez
fit multiple? Can you fit multiple? Like Job itself, like it's it's a book of poetry, but can you also call it narrative depending on your interpretation of Job?
00:03:12
Ridley
Yes. yeah So the first two chapters, which we call the prologue, are definitely narrative. that that They fit nice and neatly into that.
00:03:17
Dan Sanchez
narrative. Okay.
00:03:20
Ridley
then the rest of it's a mixture of wisdom, mostly wisdom, but there is some poetry in there as well. You go to books like the Book of Exodus, which we're fixing to jump into next, mostly narrative, but there is some poetry in there.
00:03:35
Ridley
The Song of Miriam after they come out of the Red Sea is one of those classified Poetry again, it's a song but they classified as poetry because that's the way the Hebrews addressed that subject.
00:03:46
Ridley
So Yeah, yeah
00:03:48
Dan Sanchez
You said this on Sunday, but I just want to re-emphasize it here. But i I've always respected and loved the idea of categorizing things. Even if not everything fits into all the nice clean buckets, there's always some messiness and some in-betweens and some crossovers and all that.
00:04:03
Dan Sanchez
But it just helps me understand a topic. In fact, it's one of the first things I do when I'm studying a new topic is to understand the lay of the land. You're like, give me the categories. Like, how do you organize this new thing that we're looking at?
00:04:11
Ridley
hu
00:04:14
Ridley
yeah
00:04:14
Dan Sanchez
whether it's music or marketing or the Bible, but having it organized in those topics, I think is, I'm really glad that you did that because now people can, each time we can reference it and be like, well, this is a narrative, this is a law, this is a prophecy, and it helps bring some
Using Study Bibles for Context
00:04:30
Dan Sanchez
understanding to it, I think.
00:04:30
Ridley
but And this is an area where as a pastor I really encourage good good, well put together study Bibles. Most of us don't take the time to do it when we start reading a new book of the Bible, but those little sections at the beginning where it talks about the author and the purpose and the audience, those help us to get the context of what we're reading. And and for you know your point, they help categorize, okay, what are we reading? Are we reading mostly poetry? Is this just some wisdom proverbs put together or is this a true story that we're reading? and so
00:05:01
Ridley
I encourage you if you, if you don't have one, get a good one. If you need a recommendation, call the office. We can do that for you. But a good study Bible can help help you to better interpret what you're reading and the meaning behind it.
00:05:14
Dan Sanchez
Yeah. It's funny. When I was young, I got mad at study Bibles. I don't know what it was. I just felt like i just I could never find the answer that I was asking. So I just stopped using study Bibles for a long time.
00:05:23
Ridley
that and
00:05:25
Dan Sanchez
But it's now that I'm reading through it in the year of the chronological Bible, we're all reading and it has that kickoff to every section.
00:05:25
Ridley
Yep.
00:05:31
Ridley
yep
00:05:31
Dan Sanchez
It's actually really nice. I'm like, okay, I wrote that off when I was 18. I probably wrote it off a little too hard.
00:05:37
Ridley
And you have to put a word across, and I always do when I'm recommending study Bibles, you can fall into the trap of reading the study notes more than you read the Bible.
00:05:45
Dan Sanchez
Yep.
00:05:45
Ridley
And you always have to put that red warning out there. The study notes and even the stuff at the beginning, the intros to the books, those are all interpretations of man.
00:05:56
Ridley
They're theories by man, those kinds of things. But for the most part, they're pretty right on. They're pretty solid. And again, they help to give context to what is the infallible word of God.
Interpreting Wisdom Books
00:06:08
Dan Sanchez
For the book of Job, that there's a YouTube, of three YouTube videos that have like really impacted my view on this book from the Bible project. Do you have a chance to watch that video?
00:06:18
Ridley
Yes, seen it before. It's really, really good. um um I didn't watch it again recently when you sent me the email, but I've seen it before because at one point I went through all those.
00:06:25
Dan Sanchez
Yeah.
00:06:27
Ridley
Those videos are fantastic. They're a great resource. I recommend them to people because again, they're men's theories about how some of this stuff is to be interpreted. But men is so helpful in just kind of helping your mind to have a kind of some guide rails to take you down the right path.
00:06:41
Dan Sanchez
Yeah, there was this idea of like, and what I liked about it, these were special videos. Cause the Bible project usually has this like handwritten looking type of Bible over you, which is really helpful.
00:06:48
Ridley
Yep.
00:06:51
Dan Sanchez
These ones were special.
00:06:51
Ridley
No.
00:06:53
Dan Sanchez
They split off the book of books of wisdom, proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Job.
00:06:56
Ridley
Okay. No, I haven't seen those then.
00:06:57
Dan Sanchez
joe okay those yeah i'll i'll send it again but essentially it kind of built the case that like these three are together because proverbs kind of represents like lady wisdom and that god's orchestrated everything with an invisible thread called wisdom it's his divine order like the the righteous will prosper the fools will stumble right and it kind of makes the case for that and then it goes into ecclesiastes it's kind of like well
00:06:59
Ridley
Yeah. Okay.
00:07:15
Ridley
Yep. Hmm.
00:07:25
Dan Sanchez
and the the pribal project kind of puts it as the critic kind of like do the righteous always prosper sometimes but not always and it kind of has this like you know there's kind of chance there's kind of this grasping to the wind you could do all the right things and your life still can go poorly
00:07:28
Ridley
Yeah. Right.
00:07:41
Dan Sanchez
Yet it's still worth it to be act in righteousness and to fear God, conclusion of the book.
00:07:46
Ridley
Right. Right.
00:07:47
Dan Sanchez
And then you have Job that kind of is like the capstone of the thing saying like, yeah, but okay, so what are we supposed to do when you're fully righteous and yet bad things happen to you?
00:07:57
Ridley
Yeah.
00:07:58
Dan Sanchez
It's kind of the same conclusion.
00:07:58
Ridley
thats just what you're describing sounds Just what you're describing sounds very, very helpful because Proverbs used to always be a problem for me when I was younger because I would, I would read it literally.
00:07:59
Dan Sanchez
Fear God and do it righteously anyway. Yeah.
00:08:09
Ridley
If you do this, then this is your result. And I would look around and go, and that's not the case all the time.
00:08:11
Dan Sanchez
Yeah.
00:08:14
Ridley
you know And I think what we have to understand with Proverbs is it's not it's not formulaic in the sense that it's a guarantee, but it is
00:08:14
Dan Sanchez
Yeah.
00:08:24
Ridley
formulaic in the sense that it says, if you do this, the chances are really high. This is the outcome outcome you will get. And so I think God inspired Solomon and and others to write those proverbs as if to say, here, let's give you an encouragement in the right direction with your life. This is what righteousness looks like. And you you won't miss every pothole in life, but you'll miss a lot more if you'll just follow these rules.
00:08:48
Dan Sanchez
Job is that answer to the like biggest question in life, right? why do Why do bad things happen to good people?
00:08:55
Ridley
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Personal Reflections on Loss and Job
00:08:57
Dan Sanchez
And we've we've all we've all had that before. I had one of my, a good friend of mine, his his best friend, and I might've told this story on the podcast before, I can't remember, but his his best friend was his little sister, and they would climb mountains.
00:08:59
Ridley
Yeah.
00:09:09
Dan Sanchez
and like do I go backpacking, but they would go mountaineering. you know like They have the ice picks, and they're climbing up stuff, and
00:09:14
Ridley
Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:17
Dan Sanchez
Like they're climbing Denali, you know, in Alaska, like they're making expeditions, you know, but they went on a layup trip of like a weekend climbing up an ice glacier and Colorado and his little sister, his literally his best friends, you get caught in snowstorms.
00:09:20
Ridley
Yep. Yeah.
00:09:31
Dan Sanchez
You spend days in together in a small tent. Sometimes you got to pass the time with your, your tent buddy, which is a sister, his best friend.
00:09:37
Ridley
Yeah.
00:09:38
Dan Sanchez
But on that particular trip, they, uh, they had a, an avalanche. And he tells the story of how he, you know, you start swimming and then you all of a sudden you're spinning and then you you regain consciousness and dug himself out and started thinking about, where's my sister?
00:09:54
Dan Sanchez
And he went back to camp. Not there. Went back down. Not there. They, they never, I mean, they found her long, long after where she didn't make it.
00:10:01
Ridley
yeah
00:10:03
Dan Sanchez
But in the hospital bed, he was so mad at God and he had a vibrant faith and his sister had an extremely vibrant faith. Wonderful.
00:10:09
Ridley
Yeah.
00:10:10
Dan Sanchez
Like yeah we, they've published her journal now because it was so inspiring. It's floating out there out there on the internet.
00:10:13
Ridley
Wow.
00:10:16
Dan Sanchez
name was Ligon, but, uh, you've probably, it was really so her, her journal went viral and it's like, you, you've probably read pieces of her journal before, flip through Facebook.
00:10:25
Ridley
No.
00:10:26
Dan Sanchez
but he, i I remember he was asking God, like, God, like, why would this happen? Why, how could this happen to my sister, to me, to the family, to everything? Like, and God's like, well. What if I had you reading the Bible lately? My friend was like, well, Job, but I don't see how that applies.
00:10:42
Ridley
o
00:10:45
Ridley
Yeah.
00:10:46
Dan Sanchez
And it's a serious thing to ask. And I know it's a big part of your story. Like how much were you, did you consider the book of Job when you went through your tragedy in your life as as something you'd read through and looked at?
00:10:59
Ridley
Yeah, as you can imagine, especially right after the event, I had lots of well-meaning people who came up to me and said, you know, your story reminds me of Job or you're going through a Job-like experience.
00:11:11
Ridley
And, I, whatever reason.
00:11:13
Dan Sanchez
You remember Job's friends were quiet first.
00:11:16
Dan Sanchez
Actually, you'd be.
00:11:16
Ridley
Yeah.
00:11:18
Ridley
Yeah, exactly. I kept saying to them, you know, I know I'm not, I'm not even remotely on the scale of Joe.
00:11:23
Dan Sanchez
Yeah.
00:11:24
Ridley
Number one, I don't think I was the righteous man that Joe absolutely was. I do think that God was using it to do some things in me and there's no doubt, absolutely no doubt now looking back that I am a different man because of the experiences that God put me through.
00:11:39
Ridley
But I, I mean, absolutely it was very much like Job in the sense that i I wasn't about to deny God, but I was very much willing to get in his face and question him a whole lot about, quite frankly, his sanity. You know, what what are you thinking right now? This can't be the best possible plan going forward. And those conversations, quite quite honestly, they're embarrassing to talk about now because you think, oh, I'm supposed to be a man of faith. But Job kind of reminds us, you know, God's not afraid of those conversations with you. He he welcomes them.
00:12:11
Dan Sanchez
the book of Joe brings up a topic
Misconceptions About Prosperity and Suffering
00:12:12
Dan Sanchez
to me that I find is missing from a lot of Christians theology.
00:12:12
Ridley
that i
00:12:17
Dan Sanchez
It's not one that I find is missing from Grove Hill.
00:12:18
Ridley
Hmm.
00:12:19
Dan Sanchez
It's actually one of the things that attracted me to Grove Hill was our theology around suffering, but what it is, why it's important.
00:12:24
Ridley
Hmm.
00:12:27
Ridley
Hmm.
00:12:29
Dan Sanchez
And again, it's such a big deal because I find that a lot of Christians have this like false idea that Christians are supposed to prosper. And if you're not doing well, it's because you're either doing something wrong
00:12:37
Ridley
Right.
00:12:42
Dan Sanchez
or maybe you don't have enough faith.
00:12:44
Ridley
Right. Exactly.
00:12:46
Dan Sanchez
like Why do you think that's such a prominent, before we get into like the what and why it is, why is it so prominent that we think otherwise?
00:12:53
Ridley
I think the reason that we we are very quick to attribute it to is the name it and claim it Western prosperity gospel that fills our TV screens. And sadly, many of the Christian channels that are out there on our TVs and our radios propagate that kind of thinking. But the truth is, it goes all the way back to the very beginning of time.
00:13:12
Ridley
That's why Job's friend sat with him and said, you must have done something wrong. but Because even early on, there was this equation in the minds of followers of God, if you do what God tells you to, you will be blessed the rest of your life. You'll never taste pain. so even even when Jesus was here, Jesus had to address those very questions. You know, guys come to him and saying, hey, this guy's deaf, been deaf all his life, who's sinned? Him or his parents? There was this connection between the man's handicap versus, you know,
00:13:42
Ridley
but what do he had done in life, and Jesus says, neither, this is so God can get glory out of it. And we we start, when we when we see suffering, our experience suffering ourselves, we start with the wrong questions. It shouldn't be why God, but what are you up to, God?
Stoicism and Transformative Suffering
00:13:57
Dan Sanchez
There's something in me that's been attracted to this like idea that suffering isn't just a bad thing, but can be a good thing.
00:14:08
Dan Sanchez
Obviously, like like traumatic loss is is never seen as a good thing, but that hard things can actually be good things.
00:14:13
Ridley
right
00:14:15
Dan Sanchez
And there's a popular philosophy that's been, it's actually really old, but it's been made new again recently is the Stoic philosophy. It's the idea that like you know the resistance Like the obstacle is the way.
00:14:28
Ridley
Right.
00:14:28
Dan Sanchez
Like don't try to go around it. You want to go through it. Like the hard thing is the point.
00:14:32
Ridley
Right.
00:14:33
Dan Sanchez
And there's something about it that's attractive to me as I'm like, yeah, like I, and I'm not going to go over the wall. I'm not going to go, I'm going to go through it and until the wall breaks and I'm not going to break.
00:14:42
Ridley
yeah
00:14:42
Dan Sanchez
There's something attractive about it. Cause I'm like, I think there's a truth to it because I think God laid some truth in there. Like. All these hard things can be used for your good, right? And the Bible talks, like once you have eyes for it, you see it all over the New Testament, of course, like consider it pure joy whenever you face trials of many kinds, right? Because it's an opportunity not just for you,
00:15:06
Dan Sanchez
to to glorify God in the pain, but for you to be made a totally different person, for God to do his righteous work in you as you're going through this thing that he's using this through you, kind of like a sword in the furnace being beat.
00:15:21
Dan Sanchez
the only way a sword gets really hard is when it's laid over and then beat small again and then heat it up and then the dross is pulled off and then it beats again you know and that's how you get a really really hard sword that doesn't chink when you when you hit it against someone else's sword so there's some there's something attractive about that philosophy yet that philosophy is cold because it wouldn't celebrate anything either where Christians can take joy and celebrate things and actually find
00:15:21
Ridley
right
00:15:32
Ridley
yeah Right.
00:15:42
Ridley
Right. Right. I think there's a danger that we become masochist if we go to the other extreme that we invite all kinds of trouble into our lives. And I don't think that that is what scripture is encouraging
Growth Through Suffering
00:16:00
Ridley
us to do. I think what scripture is encouraging us to do is to say whatever suffering does come into our life counted as joy. Don't go seek it out. But when it comes, embrace it. Embrace the lessons it can teach you. Because in my mind, I'm not trying to reinterpret the Bible, but in my mind,
00:16:20
Ridley
I think what James is trying to say, it's the right kind of suffering that can create and in us. For instance, my suffering was losing my wife and my son. and If I had become an alcoholic after that, that wouldn't have probably benefited me at all. It probably would have taken me down a path that would have, in fact, I might never have come back from it. don't know. Nobody knows. Only God knows the right kind of suffering.
00:16:45
Ridley
There are certain things that will break entirely. using Using your illustration, if I were building a fine piece of furniture or trying to create a master violin, the last thing I want to do is put it through the same kind of trial that the the sword's going through.
00:17:02
Dan Sanchez
Yeah.
00:17:02
Ridley
Because the violin's never coming out of the ashes, but the sword made stronger by it.
00:17:06
Dan Sanchez
Right.
00:17:08
Ridley
So again, every Every individual, every character of every individual is so unique that I only got along with his supreme knowledge could go, this is the kind of suffering that's gonna pull them through and make them a better person.
00:17:22
Dan Sanchez
So we don't wanna become masochists, but I do see some evidence of like some, I can't call it masochism, but like this this doing the hard things. One is just fasting.
00:17:33
Dan Sanchez
That sucks.
00:17:33
Ridley
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I did.
00:17:36
Dan Sanchez
Right? That's vol that's voluntary beat down in my opinion, one of the hardest ones that the Bible talks about that very few of us partake in. But I have noticed that people who fast regularly like have a mental fortitude that's just on a different level.
00:17:52
Dan Sanchez
the other one is comes to mind is like, uh, first Corinthians, I think it's nine 27. Like Paul says, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I've preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
00:18:03
Ridley
yes
00:18:04
Dan Sanchez
And I don't mean he doesn't necessarily mean like beating his body though. I do like thinking about that verse when I'm running and I feel like I'm physically beating my muscles into submission.
00:18:12
Ridley
Right.
00:18:13
Dan Sanchez
but I think about is more of like, being disciplined when it's hard to be disciplined, like waking up early to read the Bible. Cause man, that's, that feels like masochism right there.
00:18:23
Ridley
nothing and
00:18:24
Dan Sanchez
Getting out of your warm bed and it's like 66 degrees.
00:18:24
Ridley
but you're not a morning burst
00:18:27
Dan Sanchez
You're like, turning up the heat. You're like, ah, it's cold. I gotta to make the coffee. Oh my gosh.
00:18:30
Ridley
yeah Yeah.
00:18:31
Dan Sanchez
Yep.
00:18:32
Ridley
I think you make a great point, Dan, because there is a certain kind of And the great word is the the struggle. A certain kind of struggle that we should invite into our lives because if you never faced a struggle, your muscles never grow. there's never any resistance, you never learn how to push back against the resistance. You don't want a cushy life. People who are born with a silver spoon in their mouth never learn how to to develop a work ethic, to develop disciplines in their lives if everything's always handed to them.
00:19:02
Ridley
And so I think that's why when you you read through both the Old Testament and the New Testament, when the Bible refers to itself or Jesus refers to God's word, it's always this idea that there's some kind of labor and work and stress involved in finding the joy of it. um It's described as a treasure that's hidden and a pearl of great price where you go and buy the land and you know find it. and So it's always about pursuit, about discipline, about inviting the struggle into your life.
00:19:31
Ridley
without necessarily bringing tragedy and trauma.
00:19:35
Dan Sanchez
Yeah. Like sometimes sufferings forced upon you and there's nothing you could do about it. Nothing you could have done about it, but you can voluntarily bring it into your life in, in the right way.
00:19:41
Ridley
Right?
00:19:46
Ridley
Yeah.
00:19:47
Dan Sanchez
Fasting being one of them or waking up early or doing things like that, even, even, uh, working out. I think somewhere in the word, Paul says that like even physical exercises of some use, not nearly as good as godly discipline being of full use, but
00:19:58
Ridley
Right? Yep.
00:20:03
Ridley
Well, I think in that situation, what Paul was saying even there was physical distance was good because it's going to give you a healthier life. You're more beneficial to the people around you. You live a longer life, but you're not going to put off death.
00:20:14
Ridley
So it has some limited value, but you're, you know, I think it's true with anything.
00:20:14
Dan Sanchez
Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:19
Ridley
Again, fasting is a great example. It's an invite.
Discipline as Preparation for Hardship
00:20:23
Ridley
It's an invitation of a struggle into your life so you can learn how to rely on God through the midst of that struggle.
00:20:31
Dan Sanchez
I remember a few years ago, a popular speaker out there right now is Jordan Peterson, who I think is pretty close to making a confession of faith.
00:20:36
Ridley
Mm hmm.
00:20:39
Dan Sanchez
He's kind of like right there.
00:20:40
Ridley
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:42
Dan Sanchez
It's been interesting to watch, but he he had an interesting quote that I think resonated with a lot of men out there where he says like, it's it's better to be a warrior in a garden than a garden gardener in a war.
00:20:53
Ridley
Yeah.
00:20:54
Dan Sanchez
But the only way you become a warrior is by you know choosing to do hard things so that when the hard times come, you're ready.
00:20:59
Ridley
i
00:21:02
Ridley
yeah
00:21:02
Dan Sanchez
And that's kind of what I think. like We can do some hard things, fasting, waking up early, and being disciplined and consistent with our discipline. I think reading the word and being staying in the word gets you ready for the hard times more than anything else.
00:21:15
Ridley
Absolutely.
00:21:16
Dan Sanchez
being connected to community all those kinds of things so that when you're stuck in the chaos of the the hard part which is coming for everybody like we've talked about eventually it's coming to you um you're actually ready you're not a gardener in a war you're a warrior you know that's had to come out of the garden for a little bit
00:21:25
Ridley
Yep. Hmm. Right. Well, you know, it's kinda like a a guy who enters the military.
00:21:39
Ridley
who says you know he wants to fight for his country. He goes through boot camp, he goes through basic training, he goes through all the stuff, the training, all those kind of things. He goes through all that, hoping he never has to use it. But knowing when it comes, he's ready to use it. And for the warrior who's following after Jesus Christ, you wanna invite the struggle, you wanna invite the physical discipline, the spiritual discipline, those kinds of things into your life, hoping that you never have to go through that horrible tragedy or that drastic trauma that might come But when it does, you're ready and you're prepared.
00:22:12
Ridley
It's kind of like I said, that Sunday morning in the service, you don't want to be developing your theology in the middle of your crisis. Likewise, you don't want to be trying to develop your spiritual muscles when you're already down for the count.
00:22:25
Dan Sanchez
there was a little piece you mentioned in your sermon about cyclical conversations,
Breaking Repetitive Thought Patterns
00:22:30
Ridley
Yeah.
00:22:31
Dan Sanchez
which was an interesting thought.
00:22:32
Dan Sanchez
is I took a note as soon as you said it, because a lot of times in the book of Job, the conversation seemed to repeat themselves, right?
00:22:38
Ridley
Mm hmm.
00:22:39
Dan Sanchez
Like Job makes an argument, friend makes a counter argument, Job pretty much makes the same argument, and he makes the same counter argument again.
00:22:44
Ridley
Yep, yep.
00:22:45
Dan Sanchez
It just kind of goes around and forth. And I'm like, you know, I feel like I've seen this before. I feel like I've literally seen this in my own mind before. So you you've done a lot of like different types of sessions with people you've certainly done some counseling Uh with a number of folks is this is a normal thing, isn't it?
00:23:02
Dan Sanchez
Like the cyclical nature like it's almost like the books reflecting what's going on within us And then sometimes even with our own friends our spouse Yeah Do you feel like that's useful?
00:23:02
Ridley
Oh, yeah. Yes.
00:23:12
Dan Sanchez
How do you how do you break out of that? So I don't find that that can be useful I've literally sat there watch friends go through the same lu circular logic sometimes over and over again. I'm like, man, that's a mess
00:23:22
Ridley
Well, I had to confess and I don't know, I'll say right off the bat, I don't know if this is the right way, but I've had situations my wife and I have when we've done counseling with couples and I have with individuals where after four or five sessions, you kind of look at them and go, you know what, I'm done. There's only so much I can say to you. There's only so much I can do you until you want to break the cycle of what's going on. We're stuck. And it's different with different people because I think sometimes in ah ah In a particular conversation, you can see some movement of their heart or some movement of their behaviors, and you're going, okay, we need to come back and revisit this one more time. We need to keep going. We need need to stay persistent with them. But for many of them, you come back and it's the same conversation over and over again. You're kind of like, okay, I'm ah i'm done. I'm out of words.
00:24:11
Ridley
I no longer have wisdom to offer you. I'm gonna have to send you to somebody else. In this situation, the story of Job, I feel like Job probably would have loved to have said that to his three friends. you know Can you just go deal with somebody else and pass me pass me along? Because at this point, you guys aren't offering me anything fresh, anything new. You're just repeating the same old tired lines.
00:24:32
Dan Sanchez
What do you usually find helps you break out of the cycle sometimes when it's you or you and Lisa and you're just, you're stuck in a cycle sometimes.
00:24:40
Dan Sanchez
Cause I've noticed it happens happens to all of us.
00:24:43
Dan Sanchez
It's happened to me where I'm like, I can't get out of this logical cycle that I'm in.
00:24:43
Ridley
yeah aye I think there's a number of things that you can do.
00:24:46
Dan Sanchez
And it just keeps going in circles.
00:24:50
Ridley
and First, and probably the hardest, is just to keep doing what you know to do, to do the next right thing. Because sometimes I think God is testing us to see if we'll stay faithful to our commitments, our promises, our beliefs.
00:25:04
Ridley
And then suddenly, for whatever reason, he decides, okay, now it's time for this to change. Probably less less tiresome and requiring less endurance. than Another thing that I have found is just a change of scenery. Sometimes a change of scenery can change the way we think. And so personal retreats, taking a day away for prayer, sitting down with a different author who offers a different perspective on the subject. Maybe you've read the same guys before about something and it's time to pick up something new. And then again, fresh voices.
00:25:37
Ridley
You know, the Bible tells us that plans fail for lack of counsel. I would say surrounding yourself with a variety of wise people who are mature in their faith because where one person may be able to speak to, you know, maturity in regards to relationships, somebody else may be able to challenge you a little bit more in another area of your life, like your prayer life or your financial life or or whatever. And so having a new voice coming from a different perspective sometimes can help kind of change the the way we think about certain things.
00:26:09
Dan Sanchez
Community is a big part of that. Usually I find people are struggling with this the most are the ones who are the most isolated, right?
00:26:14
Ridley
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:26:17
Dan Sanchez
Because sometimes it's even hard to see that you're stuck in the cycle, whether you were with other people.
00:26:22
Ridley
Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, all of us do something physically that we should do spiritually. We get up on Sunday morning, we get all dressed up in whatever we're going to wear to church, whether it's our Sunday best or blue jeans and a shirt, and we look in the mirror or we look at our wives and say, hey, how do I look? You know, that's exactly what the Bible talks about when it says we we look in a mirror dimly and that the word is a mirror to our souls. We should constantly be coming back to the word and in in a sense, looking at God and going, OK, how do I look?
00:26:52
Ridley
You know what's going on with me that needs adjusting and those kinds of things. That's a hard question to ask we see even a harder question to hear the answer to many times. But I think it's a wise process. And for those of us who, and many of us are this way who go you know what I just, I don't I don't hear from God. I don't feel like I hear God's voice. don't feel The community is that opportunity for there to be physical presence of God in your space. People who can look at you as a friend, a follower of Christ and say, hey, man, you're good in all these areas, but over here, you you really need to work on this one right here.
00:27:28
Dan Sanchez
It's a brave question to ask, especially someone who knows you well.
00:27:30
Ridley
well
00:27:32
Dan Sanchez
Like I'm like, when's the last time I've asked my wife like, Hey, where can I improve? Come on.
00:27:37
Ridley
Yep. yeah especially if you're going to Especially if you're going to be courageous enough to give them permission to be honest without being mad at what they say.
00:27:38
Dan Sanchez
You're like, get just give me one. Just give me one.
00:27:45
Dan Sanchez
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
00:27:47
Ridley
And, you know, I think, you know, I've talked about this on the show before, the word that is used for helpmate in the Greek in the Old Testament when they're talking about Adam and Eve is the same word that's used in the Greek when it talks about the Holy Spirit being a counselor for us.
00:28:02
Ridley
So in other words, the Holy Spirit kind of uses our wives to be a nudge for us many times.
00:28:06
Dan Sanchez
100%.
00:28:08
Ridley
So yeah, and man, It's hard to hear. I'm the first one to tell you there's times my sweet loving wife is patient enough to look at me and go, for the fifth time, this is something you've got to work on. And I don't always hear it with joy.
00:28:25
Dan Sanchez
Sometimes I wonder, I'm like, Paul, so I know some theologians wonder if Paul had a wife and then maybe like lost his wife when he converted and all that kind of stuff.
00:28:32
Ridley
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
00:28:35
Dan Sanchez
I'm like, there's no way. Cause I don't think he would have been able to say what he said if he had actually been married before.
00:28:40
Ridley
yeah
00:28:40
Dan Sanchez
saying like, i I wish you could all be like me to be fully fully focused on the Lord if you're unmarried.
00:28:44
Ridley
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:46
Dan Sanchez
I'm like, I get that, but I don't think you understand but like what it's like to be married and how much more like the Lord you become through the sanctification of marriage.
00:28:54
Ridley
That's right. That's right. Yeah, I agree with you it's a if if you. If you are married to a very godly woman who's willing to speak truth in your life, you should get down on your knees every morning, every night. Thank God that he gave you that.
00:29:09
Dan Sanchez
Just I mean, even even if not like or even if even if your wife is an unbeliever or something like that, like just just being having that much proximity and that close to just another human being period is
The Rarity of Happy Endings in Job
00:29:21
Dan Sanchez
is going to be sanctifying ah that process of being that close and all the time means there's going to be friction generally and you're you got to learn a lot about yourself.
00:29:21
Ridley
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:31
Ridley
it's It's kind of hard to sleep in the same bed and use the same bathroom with somebody for all your life and not get to know each other.
00:29:32
Dan Sanchez
Right. you
00:29:36
Ridley
And and like you said, have that friction.
00:29:37
Dan Sanchez
Yeah. And you find out how unholy you were, right? I think that's the joke, right?
00:29:40
Ridley
That's right.
00:29:41
Dan Sanchez
It's like, you think you're holy when you're single and then you get married, you're like, oh, I got a lot of work. I got more work than I thought.
00:29:44
Ridley
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's a great point.
00:29:47
Dan Sanchez
So I could shove it all under the rug a little bit if I was single and just escape and take some more time by myself or shift friends a little bit or, you know.
00:29:54
Ridley
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:57
Dan Sanchez
The last question I have is around Job. Job kind of has this satisfying ending because he's justified and kind of rectified in the end and gets this double portion of blessings poured out onto his life.
00:30:11
Dan Sanchez
But at the same time, coming back to that Ecclesiastes, like, but it's not always how it ends.
00:30:18
Ridley
Mm-hmm.
00:30:19
Dan Sanchez
Why is that? Why is it that even when you're doing well and experience suffering, it doesn't always end like the the book and the story of Job?
00:30:30
Ridley
i you know I think, again, that's one of the situations where God alone knows us better than we know ourselves.
Purpose of Suffering and Unhappy Endings
00:30:37
Ridley
And he knows that where we're a happy ending for one man may lead to him being restored into a higher place in his walk with God, a happy ending for another may not do the great work that God wants to do in him.
00:30:53
Ridley
it's like ah ah It's like somebody here to me, I guess is a a ah good example, like somebody who is given a handicap in their life, who prays all their life. Lord, will you straighten my back? Will you make my legs work? Will you fix that blind eye? You know, whatever it may be. And God, for whatever reason says, you know what, I could, and it might be okay, but I'm gonna receive greater glory by allowing this to continue in your life. And ultimately, you're gonna be a better person for having to carry this weight.
00:31:24
Ridley
yeah yeah You pastor long enough, there are many times you would love to step in the middle of families and relieve them of those kinds of responsibilities. You would love to be able to say, hey, I'm going to pray over your child and that disease is going to be removed. But God, again, God alone knows that those parents are going to be the benefit. It's hard to say that word even, but to be the benefit of the handicap that's been placed in the middle of you. And if I remove it, you won't gain what which you ultimately could if we leave it alone.
00:31:53
Dan Sanchez
It's a hard thing. It's a really hard thing knowing that God could have done something and didn't do something.
00:31:57
Ridley
Yep.
00:31:58
Dan Sanchez
And we're left with a why God. And then we just have to come back to like, well, God is God.
00:32:04
Ridley
Right.
00:32:05
Dan Sanchez
And you know what?
00:32:05
Ridley
Yeah, and I think, right, right.
00:32:06
Dan Sanchez
We're all going to die someday. and some Sometimes we're claimed a little so little sooner and it's it's sad and we don't get to know why this side of heaven often.
00:32:14
Ridley
And and I think, the back to something you were saying earlier question you asked, and I think this is where the Christian faith is broken down in this area regarding suffering. is we have been trained and conditioned by everything from Hollywood to Disney to Aesop's fables.
00:32:33
Ridley
There's a happy ending to everything and that's just not the case.
00:32:35
Dan Sanchez
Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:38
Ridley
Good people are hurt. Good people die. Good people have bad things happen in this world because it's a broken place and not every ending is a happy one this side of heaven. But the the one guarantee we have in life is that if you follow Jesus and you are a righteous man with integrity like Job, whether it's this side of heaven or ultimately in heaven, you will know the peace of being in the presence of your maker where the good, happy endings really occur.
00:33:04
Dan Sanchez
And that's the goal. The goal of life is to bring God the most glory with your life.
00:33:11
Ridley
That's right.
00:33:11
Dan Sanchez
And he gets the most glory when you were fully satisfied in him. He gets double glory, I find, when you're unset when you're satisfied with him and everything's breaking down and you don't feel well and bad things are happening.
00:33:16
Ridley
No, no.
00:33:19
Ridley
yeah Yeah, absolutely.
00:33:22
Dan Sanchez
that's that's just like It seems like miraculous thing when Job's saying, you know, glory be to God, even though he's he's fully suffering, right?
00:33:31
Ridley
now
00:33:33
Dan Sanchez
it's It's like a beautiful aroma going up to heaven.
00:33:34
Ridley
Well, and you you don't have to go, yeah, you don't have to go very far from the wisdom books that we've been talking about to see the comparison because you got Job where it ends by saying the last half of his life was blessed better than the first half.
00:33:36
Dan Sanchez
And I only hope we can do that during those days.
00:33:48
Ridley
And then just a few pages away is Solomon, whose life comes tragically to a very sad ending after such a great start because he begins to compromise and to bring values into his palace that shouldn't belong there in the first place. And while Solomon's story is mostly up along the way, he ends on a bad note, you know? So.
00:34:10
Dan Sanchez
It doesn't always go well, but we just hope to bring glory to God in this life, knowing that this life is of a vapor.
00:34:11
Ridley
Amen.
00:34:16
Dan Sanchez
It's a blink.
00:34:16
Ridley
a man
00:34:18
Dan Sanchez
It's a little little tiny warmup before a marathon that never ends. We'll look back and be like, man, that was just like an hour.
00:34:27
Ridley
Yeah,
00:34:28
Dan Sanchez
So short.
00:34:28
Ridley
that's right.
00:34:29
Dan Sanchez
What a short thing, even though it seems so long.
00:34:32
Ridley
Yeah.
00:34:32
Dan Sanchez
So eternity is a very, very long time.
00:34:36
Ridley
Yeah.
00:34:37
Dan Sanchez
Well, Ridley, thank you for sitting down with me and talking through these issues with with Job and suffering and cyclical conversations and our own thinking and mindsets.
00:34:47
Dan Sanchez
A lot of conversations talked about today.
00:34:49
Ridley
yeah
00:34:50
Dan Sanchez
So thanks for sitting down with me.
00:34:51
Ridley
My pleasure.