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Episode 10 - An Interview with Sarah HIll, CEO and Chief Storyteller of Healium
12 Plays5 days ago
Sarah Hill is the CEO and Chief Storyteller at Healium, a bio-interactive technology platform for relaxation training. Healium uses real-time biofeedback and neurofeedback stories to help people see what’s happening inside their bodies and gently learn how to shift it.
Before this chapter, she spent 25 years as a TV journalist and news anchor, reporting from Congo, the Amazon, Sri Lanka, Indonesia, and Guatemala for NBC, ABC, and CBS news affiliates. She deployed with trauma teams in the aftermath of the tsunami and, after years of covering trauma, felt called to tell a different kind of story: one that helps people heal from it.
Her work at Healium supports clinicians in pain, behavioral health, and VA settings, making stress management more visual, intuitive, and human. Ten peer-reviewed journals have published research about Healium, including Mayo Clinic Proceedings. Healium’s immersive VR kits are used in DOD and VA clinics to help people better self-manage stress, anxiety, PTSD, insomnia, pain, and burnout as part of a healthy lifestyle.
After earning a dozen Mid-America Emmy Awards, she realized they were pretty great as toilet paper holders.
These days, she builds biometrically powered stories enabled by a portfolio of system patents and connected to heart rate, EEG, fMRI, breath, skin conductance, and other sensor data. To her, any sensor that captures data can become a story with a very human metaphor. She also speaks frequently at conferences about media as medicine, AI content recommendations, and the future of digital health.
Healium began in 2013 with a project called “Honor Everywhere,” which helped terminally ill and aging veterans visit memorials in VR when they couldn’t get there in person. That idea, making the invisible visible, still guides everything Healium does.
She is also a heart attack survivor, which makes this work deeply personal. She lives in Missouri with her husband, two grown children, and a grandchild who keeps her grounded and on her toes.
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Transcript
Podcast Milestone and Purpose
00:00:18
Robert Fine
Well, Sarah, ah we finally have made it. um I think it's been about going on four months of ah canceling and rescheduling.
00:00:29
Robert Fine
But
00:00:30
Sarah Hill
I know two ships passing in in in the night, but it's delightful to be here with you and your audiences as well. So it's it's great to to catch up.
00:00:39
Robert Fine
I'm not sure if I have an audience, but you know, it's a, I'm,
00:00:42
Sarah Hill
Yes, i know you i know you do. Absolutely, you do.
00:00:45
Robert Fine
your episode number 10, I was actually waiting to have 10 recorded episodes before actually sharing it with my email list. I mean, I've been, i haven't really done like a big marketing, you know, kind of pushed to get out there and I didn't want to do it like one or two episodes. So after this, I will do a, um, I'm going try to try to build that audience up.
00:01:08
Robert Fine
Um, and, uh, and you know, my goal with this is, is, you know, long form, um,
00:01:08
Sarah Hill
Love it.
00:01:15
Robert Fine
you know, whatever tangents, directions it takes us. Um, it's more about you than helium, but helium is part of you. So we will of course talk about that.
Introducing Sarah's Background
00:01:27
Robert Fine
Um, but it is, um, it is exposing, ah you know, who Sarah Hill is, um you know, going back to your roots and, and you have a, a long and, and, you know, very, um, fruitful career that's not over.
00:01:43
Robert Fine
Um, but it's, uh, It's a great point to kind of share what you've you've done so far. and you know I was doing a little bit of um preparation. and You and I have actually never had – we've had some brief talks, but we've never had ah a really long, deep conversation about your your background. So i've been I've been looking forward to this. And you're one of the few people that I know ah who's had a very ah you know long career in journalism, um which is both one of my you know older passions and and where I've had a lot of interest over the years. um But let's um you're you're you're Missouri born and bred, correct?
Family and Hometown Roots
00:02:23
Sarah Hill
Yes, absolutely. um Born in Canton, Missouri, population 1,500. Salute for all of the older folks who used to watch Haw.
00:02:34
Sarah Hill
Yes, grew up in her a rural community, ah married the boy next door, quite literally. We came we came to the University of Missouri.
00:02:40
Robert Fine
Really?
00:02:43
Sarah Hill
I came here for the journalism.
00:02:44
Robert Fine
Wait, wait, you're going you're going too fast. wait you you like yeah you yes now Now, when did you meet this boy?
00:02:47
Sarah Hill
Oh, okay. All right.
00:02:51
Sarah Hill
I actually, he well he grew up across the street from me and he used to shoot, you know he had five brothers and sisters that didn't have you know a whole lot of supervision And ah he would shoot real bow and arrows at my dad in the garden when he was working out in our garden.
00:03:10
Robert Fine
just for fun.
00:03:11
Sarah Hill
So when I said I was bringing Robbie Hill home for dinner, my dad was like, hold on, Robbie Hill from like the hellion from across the street. So anyway, he grew up and to be a wonderful man and and spouse and and and father.
00:03:25
Sarah Hill
But um yeah, we we both grew up in
00:03:27
Robert Fine
So how old, how old were you when you guys, I mean, did you know him like growing up when you were 10 or something or not until you're
00:03:32
Sarah Hill
Yeah, i knew him growing up as the kid that would throw walnuts at me, climb climb our tree and throw walnuts at me. And then we started dating when I was 17 and he's he's a little bit older. um But and yeah, ah you know, from from dating, then we went to ah University of of Missouri.
00:03:54
Sarah Hill
So a long and meandering path.
00:03:56
Robert Fine
I mean, that's that's, yeah, but that's rare too i mean, to to to marry the person that you grew up with next door.
00:03:58
Sarah Hill
But yeah.
00:04:05
Sarah Hill
I know. Yeah. And it's now been, ah you know, more than 30.
00:04:07
Robert Fine
Maybe maybe it's not rare in a town of 1,500. Maybe that's the...
00:04:10
Sarah Hill
Yeah, it's 36 years of of marriage. So yeah, that's that's ah that's that's a long time.
00:04:14
Robert Fine
Congratulations.
00:04:17
Sarah Hill
So I've known it him more than.
00:04:17
Robert Fine
I just celebrated 26 couple weeks ago. Yeah.
00:04:20
Sarah Hill
Ah, congrats. Congrats. And in today's day and age, that's, you know, a real, a real testament, but he is you know obviously my life partner and you know your co-founder. Before you have a real co-founder in a company, your family is your your co-founder. So he's definitely a great partner in in Helium as well.
00:04:39
Robert Fine
Absolutely. So where you are are you were you an only child or you have siblings?
00:04:45
Sarah Hill
No, um I have a sister who is, yeah her her career was in elementary elementary education. And so she taught for for decades. And then she went to work for the Missouri State Teachers Association.
00:05:00
Sarah Hill
And ah she lives in Canton as well. And so she's about two and a half years older than I am.
00:05:09
Robert Fine
and and And what about your parents? Are they still around?
00:05:13
Sarah Hill
My parents, both they are still around and we recently moved them to Columbia to be closer to us, um you know, as they're aging and and needing better access to healthcare than that rural community that they, ah you know, ah knew for so very long, which was a great decision. Shortly after we moved them here, um they got sick. my My dad was diagnosed with prostate cancer.
00:05:36
Robert Fine
I'm sorry.
00:05:37
Sarah Hill
My mother, um, ah recently had a heart condition and ah you know had had a ah ah large blockage in her LAD artery.
00:05:48
Sarah Hill
So they're doing well now, thank thank goodness, um and you know really hoping that their health continues for the future, but brought them closer to us.
00:05:58
Sarah Hill
And we love that. We love we love having having
Health and Life Challenges
00:06:01
Sarah Hill
them closer.
00:06:01
Robert Fine
and And you've had a hell ah hell of a year yourself on top of that.
00:06:05
Sarah Hill
Yeah, I have. Yeah, I had a heart attack out of the out of the blue, a freak heart attack in December ah of 2024. So, you know, about a year and a half ago. And yeah, just took the wind of my out of my sails. I was out of commission for about six months. But, you know, by the grace of God, I survived and my team just, you know, stepped up and some real amazing leaders were were grown out of out of that. they they stepped up and continued to to carry carry the torch for the company. But yes, would ah encourage everyone listening to get a heart calcium score test um and specifically women who their symptoms do not mimic natural center chest pain to to really be aware of that. I'm happy to you know go into more about how that happened and and you know, things that that men and women women should look for. But yeah, I was a perfectly healthy woman who, you know, worked out with a trainer two times a week. I had no high blood pressure, no high calllet cholesterol, perfect blood work.
00:07:16
Sarah Hill
I'm not overweight. don't smoke. I eat well. And I had a major heart attack. So it just, you know, goes to show you that your genes load.
00:07:24
Robert Fine
So you can do everything well and in in healthcare care and take perfect care of yourself and still get screwed.
00:07:27
Sarah Hill
Mm-hmm.
00:07:31
Sarah Hill
Absolutely. And part of that is your genes, you know, your genes load the gun, but your environment fires it.
00:07:34
Robert Fine
Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:39
Sarah Hill
And so, you know, stress, obviously, you know, ah my business is stress management, right? But sometimes, you know, the cobbler has no shoes. And, you know, there was a lot going on with our our our company and, you know, good things.
00:07:54
Sarah Hill
But, you know, ultimately, you burn the candle at both ends that sometimes your body just revolts. and And, you know, some of that can actually cut off stress can literally kill you. It can cut off, you know, the blood flow to your heart, which is what happened in my case.
00:08:13
Robert Fine
Let's, can you share a bit about growing up and and and what your parents did and what was was like growing up with them and your older sister?
00:08:23
Sarah Hill
Sure. I love this. no but Usually ah most people ask questions about the company, but they never ask about our life growing up. So this is this is fascinating. um Yes, my both of my parents were
00:08:32
Robert Fine
well Well, you know, it's it's it's all that makes the person, right? And I mean, I think it's it it it it actually speaks a lot to to your company later, how you build it, how you how you run it, values, things like that.
00:08:45
Sarah Hill
Sure, so both of my parents were teachers. My dad was an economics professor professor at the local Culver Stockton College and in Canton, Missouri, um a ah local local ah a college that is up on a hill in this very small town, and it's it's beautiful.
00:09:05
Sarah Hill
And then my mother is also, she they're both retired, but she was a nursing professor. for many years and she worked as and a nurse, a pediatric nurse and um and a maternity nurse.
00:09:13
Robert Fine
Wow.
00:09:19
Robert Fine
And so what how kind how did that um how was that instilled on on you and your sister in terms of education growing up? And was there a a high bar expected?
00:09:34
Sarah Hill
um As far as education, i had the most wonderful parents in the world who kind of You know, giving you positive feedback, giving you constructive criticism. And in growing up in the small town where we were, not everyone went to college, right? It was a farming community. In the summers, you would detassel corn.
00:09:55
Sarah Hill
um ah you know And everyone worked when you were a teenager, that was like expected when you turned, I think I started working when I was 15 waiting tables at ah at a local riverboat dinner theater called the Golden Eagle Riverboat in Canton, canton Missouri.
00:10:13
Sarah Hill
ah But you no, it's not.
00:10:14
Robert Fine
Is it still around?
00:10:17
Sarah Hill
um But my husband worked as a district dishwasher ah therere there as well, but learned a lot in in working at that that young age, you know, because I came from a family with you know modest means. They were both teachers and and educators. And so it was expected that, you know, you would work.
00:10:41
Robert Fine
one And obviously it influenced both you and your sister. I mean, your sister went into elementary and and I saw, you know, and you've done some some college teaching as well during the year.
00:10:51
Sarah Hill
Mm-hmm.
00:10:51
Robert Fine
So obviously they they they pass that along to you.
00:10:55
Sarah Hill
Yeah, they did. And I thoroughly enjoyed teaching at the Missouri School of Journalism. I was an adjunct for them for for many years. And um i you know I think I get a lot of that from my dad. My dad today you know still has students that I meet out in the community who come up to me and and talk about ah you know what a wonderful educator he was or my mom, you know, ah ah in in everything that she taught all of her students about nursing and, and um having babies and how to deliver babies and and all those wonderful things. So yeah, definitely had had teaching in my blood. And you're really a lifelong teacher when you're running your own company as well. Particularly, you know, with with the younger employees who come through our doors, you know, what a what a great gift to be able to,
00:11:47
Sarah Hill
to not only share your knowledge, but also learn you know from them as well. And in today's day and age with AI and all of the other digital tools that are moving so quickly, I love to learn from from our employees.
Journalism Journey Begins
00:12:03
Robert Fine
ah So was journalism something you were interested in and in high school or did you not kind of come to it until you got into college?
00:12:13
Sarah Hill
So funny story, when I was in seventh grade, there was a boy who came to my science class and was trying to recruit people to the local newspaper called Tiger Tracks, and he was looking for a sports reporter. So somebody who could go watch the basketball games and then write up a recap about it.
00:12:34
Sarah Hill
Well, i didn't I didn't want anything to do with sport. I could care less about sports. But the guy who came to talk with us was very handsome. He ah ah and he he had on a you know ah he just got done out of basketball practice. And you know this this cute boy comes in and is asking for volunteers. I'm like, ah yeah, I'll write for the the school newspaper.
00:12:58
Sarah Hill
So to make a long story short, you know, that that cute boy who came to try to recruit creep people to write for the newspaper turned out to be Robbie Hill, um who would eventually become my husband.
00:13:09
Sarah Hill
So he always remarks that he was the one who launched my journalism career.
00:13:12
Robert Fine
Well, you just had – you were like – you worked with him at the riverboat. He was the dishwasher.
00:13:20
Sarah Hill
Right.
00:13:20
Robert Fine
You worked you were kind of worked for him sort of for the newspaper in high school.
00:13:20
Sarah Hill
Yeah.
00:13:25
Robert Fine
I mean it was – I guess you just couldn't get away from him it seems.
00:13:30
Sarah Hill
Yeah, detasseling corn or or whatever. But yeah, it was a great experience.
00:13:35
Robert Fine
and and And Bobby Hill is his name.
00:13:36
Sarah Hill
i
00:13:37
Robert Fine
So just so so so classically, i mean, that I'm sure i can't imagine how often he gets ah he gets a second look when when he says, I'm Bobby Hill.
00:13:38
Sarah Hill
Yeah, Robbie Hill.
00:13:49
Sarah Hill
Yeah, well, he's Rob now. he's he's draw Only his old friends know him as as as Robbie.
00:13:52
Robert Fine
Okay. Yeah.
00:13:55
Sarah Hill
But yeah, he launched my journalism career. I developed you know a love of of writing through that. And um in order to work my way through college, At Missouri State University, the the first university that I attended, i worked at a local radio station, a local local NPR affiliate, and I would cover city council meetings and other, you know, i non-exciting stuff. But it was a paycheck and it got me caught by the the journalism bug.
00:14:27
Sarah Hill
Now, at that particular university, they did not have a journalism program. They had a communications program. And, you know, the Missouri School of Journalism is the oldest and best journalism school in in the world. That's debatable. I'm sure there's others from, you know, that would claim that they're they're the best. But ah Missouri's has a storied history with with Walter Williams and and yeah is you know truly a unique model because they own television stations and radio stations. So before people ah leave and graduate from that school, they have this rich resume reel in order to share with employers. And they've already worked in the market for two years as a you know working ah television news reporter or or anchor.
00:15:13
Sarah Hill
So I transferred to University of Missouri, got a job at a I worked in television and in Springfield ah as well as a a ah ah associate ah producer.
00:15:27
Sarah Hill
And then when I transferred to the J school at Mizzou, I worked at a ah local news talk radio station covering again the city beat. You know, we covered also every car, you know, chasing ambulances, the police scanners going on in the newsroom and you're listening to it and you know, you basically cover what what the police are doing.
00:15:49
Sarah Hill
But continued to work throughout my college career and then graduated and and went to my first gig was at a CBS affiliate in Jefferson City, Missouri, in the capital city.
00:16:04
Sarah Hill
And I was the
00:16:07
Robert Fine
That was KRCG.
00:16:09
Sarah Hill
KRCG. Yeah, the
00:16:12
Robert Fine
Wait, what year did you graduate?
00:16:14
Sarah Hill
I graduated in 93, during the flood of 93.
00:16:16
Robert Fine
and Okay. We're, and yeah, we we were at the exact same, and I graduated in 94 and I was actually a year behind. ah So ah yeah, we were we were in school at the exact same period.
00:16:28
Sarah Hill
It was the the flood of ninety three it was the first.
00:16:29
Robert Fine
um And I remember, well, it's funny you talk about that because, it's um well, and and I did a lot of journalism in in high school and college and and started a news department at our radio station.
00:16:41
Robert Fine
ah But I remember, know, one of the the highlights was we um we did ah a, ah you know, an on-campus canvassing during the Clinton election, election night.
00:16:53
Sarah Hill
Right.
00:16:54
Robert Fine
And that was, you know, just a ah lot of fun.
00:16:58
Sarah Hill
yeah Yeah, for sure. And and during 93, with a flood of 93, all of our camera equipment was flooded. you know, we were wading through awful, um you know awful trauma.
00:17:09
Robert Fine
i'm I'm not familiar with the flood of 93.
00:17:12
Sarah Hill
Yeah. And um
00:17:13
Robert Fine
That was ah in Missouri, a significant flood.
00:17:16
Sarah Hill
yeah, but it was a good, you know, a good learning experience ah at KRCG. I was also in addition to the reporter, I was also the noon anchor and also the producer of the show. So, you know, you would go, you'd you'd come in you would produce the show, write it all up yeah yourself, including run your own teleprompter.
00:17:38
Sarah Hill
um and then after you were done anchoring the news, noon newscast, you'd go out and shoot a story. You were your own videographer, your own editor, your own own producer. We called it a one, one man band.
00:17:48
Sarah Hill
Right. And then, you've heard the stories for the later newscast.
00:17:49
Robert Fine
Well, let me ask you something. did you
00:17:54
Robert Fine
did you Did you find early on, even in college, that you um liked being on air, whether it was it was voice or or video, or did you prefer being production and and and writing more for other broadcasters, or did or or you liked both equally?
00:18:16
Sarah Hill
Yeah, I loved to write ah first and foremost. And that's why I really leaned into the reporting and the producing. You know, anchoring, you know, for me was just I mean, sometimes it wasn't just reading off a pre teleprompter.
00:18:32
Sarah Hill
I mean, there were many times when we did wall-to-wall coverage during tornado alerts or or or whatever. During 9-11, we were on the air live, wall-to-wall, something crazy, like eight or 10 hours, like ah but you know pretty much the whole and whole entire day.
00:18:43
Robert Fine
Oh, yeah.
00:18:48
Sarah Hill
So, I mean, some of that found challenging.
00:18:49
Robert Fine
and And you were doing the 6 o'clock and 10 o'clock news, right?
00:18:53
Sarah Hill
Yeah, and eventually I transitioned from, ah you know, they moved us ah around at KRCG. I did the noon, the five, and then i did the six and the 10.
00:19:04
Sarah Hill
And then at KOMU, I did all shifts. I mean, I pinch hit it on the morning show when they needed help. I did a noon, i did a special social media cast.
00:19:14
Sarah Hill
And then I also anchored six and 10, five, six and 10 o'clock news.
00:19:20
Robert Fine
and And you had a program called People You Should Know.
00:19:20
Sarah Hill
So they just
00:19:23
Sarah Hill
Yeah.
00:19:24
Robert Fine
so what what was that about exactly?
00:19:24
Sarah Hill
ahha It was just people you should know, basically. um i Yeah, I liked the people features. I liked, you could, you call it P-Y-S-K, but i liked learning about you know, there's just some amazing, like really amazing people that you would, you don't know their stories really.
00:19:32
Robert Fine
that's that's That's what I should have called this podcast had I before. before yeah
00:19:49
Sarah Hill
um And, you know, I was just blessed with the ability to get to learn these you know amazing stories, what they're doing, people who've triumphed over challenges. And it was it was a feature i I cultivated and kind of made it my own and allowed me to lean into that style of storytelling i liked where the words really married with with the pictures in in unique ways.
00:20:16
Robert Fine
yeah Did you have a um with a ah career plan? to I mean, was part of your interest to ah move to a larger market or did you always kind of decide that you wanted to kind of stay in this in the within Missouri and and you liked where you were?
Career Choices and International Reporting
00:20:35
Sarah Hill
The goal in television back then, 20 years ago, was always to move to a larger market because the larger the market, the more zeros behind your salary.
00:20:46
Sarah Hill
But that changes when you have a couple kids, you have a school that you like, your husband has a job that he enjoys. And, excuse me, your you know your parents are are close in in Missouri as well. So probably about five years in you know, I dropped looking for that next thing and realized that, you know, ah the Midwest was my home.
00:21:13
Sarah Hill
There was incredible stories to tell right in that community from natural disasters. These news affiliates had a decent budget that they could send us, you know, all around the world to do special features.
00:21:26
Sarah Hill
We went in with the trauma teams in the aftermath of the tsunami in Sri Lanka and Indonesia. We've been to Guatemala to do stories, Zambia.
00:21:35
Robert Fine
du were you and Were you in Aceh?
00:21:37
Sarah Hill
I'm sorry?
00:21:38
Robert Fine
Did you go to Aceh in Indonesia, which was kind of wiped off the map from the Tuna?
00:21:41
Sarah Hill
No. I don't believe so. And, you know, I mean, that was back in, what is that, 2004 or-ish?
00:21:53
Robert Fine
Yeah, it's a long time ago.
00:21:54
Sarah Hill
I don't remember the exact community that we went, but one of the the the communities, ah in Sri Lanka or Indonesia, this one particular village had lost everyone that they know. The whole village was what was wiped out essentially. And there was one woman who was, ah happened to be that day studying in Colombo in, I think it was ah in ah Sri Lanka, which is you know, a populated area. She came back to her rural rural village And everyone that she knew, can you imagine that level of trauma? Everyone that she knew on that day was gone.
00:22:33
Sarah Hill
All of her friends, all of her family, had been you know washed away. And you know that was just eye-opening for me in interviewing her. I even asked her a couple different times because I didn't think, I was like, hold on, hold on Are you saying, yeah, I thought it was like getting lost in translation. And I asked the interpreter to ask her the question again.
00:22:56
Sarah Hill
and after she had you know reiterated a third time, i lost everybody i knew that day. i was just like, mean, we have no idea that, you know, what they went through and that I'm sure that mental health emergency still continues in Sri Lanka and and Indonesia today, you know, from, from what those people went through.
00:23:15
Robert Fine
Yeah.
00:23:16
Sarah Hill
But um yeah, that was very i have an eye opening for me and going in with those trauma teams, you know, not the, the level of devastation, the level of personal de ofate devastation that was just, you know, mind boggling.
00:23:34
Robert Fine
Yeah, it's hard to imagine. um well I'm just curious curious a little bit, what was um what was the decision making to move from from KRCG KOMU?
00:23:49
Sarah Hill
Primarily for my family. um It was closer to where I was living. I was living in Columbia and commuting back and forth every day. And KRCG was great to be great people, you know, great management, but, ah you know, wanted to be be closer to my kids. My kids were young. And so the idea of not having to work the night shift was where you you go in at one and you get home at 11 p.m. or midnight, you know, after the the commute. um It was appealing. So I i ah spent a little bit of time at home with the kids and and then went to work ah at KUMU, the NBC affiliate in Columbia, Missouri, doing, ah i think it was a noon and five o'clock shows at that time.
00:24:43
Robert Fine
And that that was an NBC affiliate you said?
00:24:45
Sarah Hill
Yeah, NBC affiliate, yeah.
00:24:46
Robert Fine
Okay. And um so I am curious about, um you know, Congo's in the news again. ah When, when did, what was the, the, the, ah the story that you, you did there and where were you exactly?
00:25:05
Sarah Hill
So we went in with ah Google, actually, and they were Google was doing immersive documentaries. And so we did an immersive documentary and you know, our company before it started was called Story Up, as some of you may remember. And, you know, we went out with real 360 degree three d cameras and shot some stories about triumph, tribulation, and this particular story was in Congo about solar energy and how um solar energy was enabling these people ah to, there were were poachers of mountain gorillas,
00:25:41
Robert Fine
Okay.
00:25:53
Sarah Hill
And ah you know through through this solar energy, they had had the ability to have better communication, to cut down on the mountain gorillas. And ah the the whole premise behind the documentary is called Journey of Gold, was where the metals for your electronics come from.
00:26:16
Sarah Hill
and in a lot of you know these places, the people who are mining your metal are not treated very well at all. And so, um, this was a piece where we went in and enabled people to be in the mind where the goal, you know, uh, where, where the metal was being mined, meet the people who are, um you know, doing, doing the work as, as well. So,
00:26:43
Sarah Hill
ah Yes, very very eye-opening for my team ah to to meet the people there. And also, you know this was relatively new technology that we're shooting in the middle of Congo. We also did the same thing in the middle of the Amazon. One of our company's first ah documentaries that we were retained for was in the middle of an um of the Amazon rainforest. Literally did not have a roof over our head for 10 days. It had a thatched you know roof, no electricity,
00:27:15
Sarah Hill
ah you know, no running water. you were putting charcoal pellets in the water to purify it. So in a very remote area, and I remember thinking, here we are with these cameras that are literally duct taped together, you know, 360 degree cameras duct taped together.
00:27:33
Sarah Hill
We didn't have proper rain gear. we you know, we came with like shorts and we needed long sleeves because of the mosquitoes and the anacondas and the jaguars that could go out at night.
00:27:47
Sarah Hill
And I'll never forget. It was with someone from Google who I had just met um and they had had under, underwrote the documentary. And in the middle of the night, she turns to me and ask, will you go out to the bathroom with me?
00:28:01
Sarah Hill
Well, the middle of the night, cause there was no bathroom and you had to be careful because there were jaguars out there.
00:28:04
Robert Fine
Yeah.
00:28:07
Sarah Hill
And then after, oh, I don't even remember, um maybe 2016 or 2015.
00:28:08
Robert Fine
But what year was this?
00:28:16
Sarah Hill
But after um but after after you went.
00:28:18
Robert Fine
But both both Congo and and Amazon.
00:28:21
Sarah Hill
Yeah, I think they were even in the same year. It was like ah it was a crazy year. But i remember they said after you go to the bathroom, you then had and they gave you a shovel and you had to bury it.
00:28:32
Sarah Hill
so that the jaguars would not come smell that and come eat with you So, you know, here I just met this woman ah and, you know, we're out in the middle of the Amazon.
00:28:32
Robert Fine
Right.
00:28:45
Sarah Hill
shoveling um ah in the middle
Immersive Storytelling and Challenges
00:28:48
Sarah Hill
of the night. I mean, it was just a crazy experience. But the you know stories that that came from that was really educational for me on on how you so tell stories in the sphere.
00:29:00
Sarah Hill
Because you know for decades, I had told them through a fixed frame where you have the ability to show the user what you wanted them to see. And it was incredibly disarming in these immersive documentaries that you didn't have control of the frame.
00:29:16
Sarah Hill
Your your user had control of the frame and they got to decide what you know they were looking at. so um
00:29:22
Robert Fine
So so tell me tell me more about this transition you went through from KMOU to Veterans unit United aid Network and and more immersive storytelling.
00:29:34
Sarah Hill
ah Yeah, I was the chief storyteller at Veterans United for about three years. Incredible company. And it enabled me to, ah you know, kind of detox for a few years from the news business while still...
00:29:48
Sarah Hill
exercising my storytelling shop chops. So I told stories about veterans, uh, veterans United and veterans United foundation, uh, the employees of of veterans United, which is a mortgage company has an incredible foundation that, you know, uh, distributes tens tens of millions of dollars. And so I had the lucky job of telling those amazing stories. Um, and during that time i became involved and, and, uh,
00:30:15
Sarah Hill
helped found the Honor Flight program in Columbia, Missouri, because we had been doing a bunch of stories in the news business about these veterans who were going on real flights to see their memorials. And so at Veterans United,
00:30:31
Sarah Hill
ah with the Honor Flight program, a lot of these veterans were were calling um us saying they weren't able to physically travel to see their memorials in Washington, D.C. And so, you know, a storyteller technologist, what skills do I have that could enable them to feel like they were there even though they weren't there?
00:30:49
Sarah Hill
And so we we developed the Honor Everywhere program in 2013, 2012, or with Google Cardboard. We shot You know, all all of the videos and 360 3D with 24 different cameras set up in and an array. It was nuts.
00:31:06
Sarah Hill
And that's how I got into virtual reality in in using it for these veterans tours and noticing that these experiences were impacting physiology. They weren't just watching and the experiences, they were feeling them.
Transition to Helium and VR Impact
00:31:24
Robert Fine
and And the experiences in ah in Congo and Amazon, was that while you were at Veterans United Network or that came after?
00:31:32
Sarah Hill
No, that was with StoryUp. StoryUp in 2015, 2016. And StoryUp was a brand studio for...
00:31:39
Robert Fine
right. You went you went from StoryUp, you switched, you changed StoryUp to Helium.
00:31:43
Sarah Hill
Right, correct.
00:31:44
Robert Fine
Okay.
00:31:45
Sarah Hill
Yeah, and the legal name of of Helium is StoryUp Inc.
00:31:45
Robert Fine
you StoryUp off your LinkedIn. Yeah.
00:31:50
Sarah Hill
Yeah, ah the legal name of our company is still StoryUp Inc. But we just changed, you know, the the we we converted from a ah ah brand studio, basically, that was doing documentaries,
00:32:01
Sarah Hill
um to to the Helium product. And Helium and heliumus it had many interdirect iterations over the years.
00:32:08
Robert Fine
but Okay, so so tell me just a little bit, I mean, I'm just curious about the transition from from Veterans unit United Network to starting StoryUp. but was that Was that kind of all planned?
00:32:20
Robert Fine
Was it more um circumstantial ah on what was going on at the time?
00:32:25
Sarah Hill
Yeah.
00:32:27
Sarah Hill
Circumstantial with these veterans, I went to a friend of mine who's ah and a neurofeedback specialist, and he was actually my husband's business partner at the time. My husband ah used to be a psychologist and he had ah a psychology practice. He's now in real estate, but his business partner was really into doing brain mapping and, you know, seeing how different things impact physiology. And I was telling him like, you know, in these veterans who are watching these experiences,
00:32:56
Sarah Hill
you know, they look so relaxed inside the goggles. They take off the goggles. Their body is like, you know, a wet rag um and, you know, very, very relaxed. And they say, i like how I felt in that experience. Can I watch it again? and so, you know, I'm a journalist, naturally curious person. I asked Dr. Jeff Tarrant, you know, what do you think is happening to their physiology?
00:33:22
Sarah Hill
um you know, that makes them feel this way. What is it about, you know, this, this ah immersive media? And ah can we, you know, what? And any he said, well, you know, we should test it.
00:33:37
Sarah Hill
So he started doing brain maps on different experiences to see how they impacted the brain. And we started live streaming the user's bioinformatics. and started ah ah tying those bioinformatics to the content. So the content was was ah being changed by different shifts in brain hurts via like an EEG headband or via your heart rate. So we we were using your biometrics as as an input of sorts in order to downshift the nervous system and allow the user to become more self-aware
00:34:18
Sarah Hill
of those different shifts. And so it was not a linear path anyway. It was like we have, I've always had for for years, what's called nerdy playdates.
00:34:29
Sarah Hill
And I'll have to invite you to one, but it's it's where two technologists get together and you play, you know, much like two children would play with Tinker Toys.
00:34:32
Robert Fine
Yes.
00:34:39
Sarah Hill
It's, hey, i' you know I've got this VR stuff and i I'm a storyteller and i'm I'm passionate about telling these stories in the sphere and its impact. And then, you know, his toys are, well, he's ah ah a clinician and he does brain maps.
00:34:56
Sarah Hill
And, you know, is is there a way that my peanut butter can, you know, I'll work with with your jelly. And so anyway, it was a beautiful collaboration of a scientist and a technologist and a storyteller coming together to allow people to be better realize that their thoughts have power, their heart has power to control things, not only in the virtual world, in the real in the real world as well.
00:35:23
Sarah Hill
So that's a very nonlinear path, but it started with covering veterans, ah trying to solve the problem.
00:35:27
Robert Fine
what so so do So did you, sorry. So did you did you start that research with Dr. Taron while at to Veterans United Network?
00:35:42
Sarah Hill
And thinking back up No, was at Helium when we started. i think i was at Helium when we started. I mean, the virtual tours with with the veterans, ah you know, we started that in like 2013.
00:36:00
Sarah Hill
um And then later on, Helium did not exist before.
00:36:01
Robert Fine
So wait, did was it but did Helium already exist before you joined it, or or or you started Helium?
00:36:07
Sarah Hill
i started StoryUp Inc., which is Helium.
00:36:10
Robert Fine
Okay. like when i'm i guess I guess where I'm trying to where i'm trying to lead you to, and trying to get to is what what was it that made you start?
00:36:11
Sarah Hill
Yeah, in 2015, yeah.
00:36:20
Robert Fine
What was it that said, you know what, I should start a company. This is an opportunity. I'm going to start StoryUp and head first this. ah head first into this
00:36:31
Sarah Hill
Yeah. So I was the chief storyteller at Veterans United, and we were doing these virtual tours for veterans and just seeing the impact on their faces.
00:36:42
Sarah Hill
I mean, i told how many hundreds, thousands of stories over the years, but for them to take off the goggles at the time, even to take the ah cardboard off their face, visibly, you know, overcome with emotion, a very visceral reaction to this kind of media.
00:37:01
Sarah Hill
You know, I was fascinated with wanting to tell more of those stories, more and more and more. So I remember going to my boss, Brant Bukowski. He's an ah an amazing man and mentor. And he, ah yeah you know, I remember saying, hey, this is the next thing.
00:37:20
Sarah Hill
We need to buy all of these 360 cameras. We need to go out and do a bunch documentaries because this is like the next thing. And, um you know, people, it's more engaging and whatever. And I remember him ah saying, Sarah, we are a mortgage company.
00:37:36
Sarah Hill
I love your enthusiasm. um But, you know, we we need to tell stories about the the foundation. And it just, you know, it was this little voice in my ear of,
00:37:47
Sarah Hill
I really wanted to to to tell stories in the sphere and in immersive. And so, um you know, I stepped down on in faith and and I, you know, went to him to to tell him, hey, just so you know, you know, this has been a great experience, but I can't get this out of my head that I need to go do this.
00:38:06
Sarah Hill
I need to tell more stories about this. um I don't actually know what the path ahead is, but I'm going here and I'm starting my own company. And, you know, he ended up ah becoming an investor in in our company.
00:38:20
Robert Fine
Oh, okay.
00:38:21
Sarah Hill
And ah so, yeah, that that was the path. But it's it started with creating these virtual tours for veterans, noticing thinking it was impacting their physiology. And and then, you know, formed StoryUp in ah about
Collaborations and Innovations
00:38:40
Sarah Hill
2015. It was...
00:38:42
Sarah Hill
it was ah named something different for a year or so and then ah we formed the helium product shortly after the brands
00:38:52
Robert Fine
And how'd you look how do you connect up with with Google or did they reach out to you?
00:38:58
Sarah Hill
so i had a a rich relationship with google from the days of google hangouts i was the first broadcaster to use their hangouts on air So whenever I would do a live broadcast, I would have two earpieces.
00:39:12
Sarah Hill
And this was, you know, before Zoom was a thing, right? This was in, I don't know, 2010, 2011.
00:39:20
Robert Fine
People forget video conferencing exists before Zoom.
00:39:21
Sarah Hill
one earpiece. Right, right.
00:39:24
Robert Fine
yeah
00:39:24
Sarah Hill
I would have one earpiece in my ear for my ah producer. Right. And then the other one would be the audience that could talk with me during the live newscast. And so I'll never remember i'll always remember you know delivering the news.
00:39:38
Sarah Hill
And then I would hear an audience member who was in one of our hangouts you know behind the scenes on the air. We called it a virtual couch. Who would be like, actually, that's billion, not million. And I was able to correct that in real time because I had this voice.
00:39:51
Sarah Hill
And I had literally the audience in my ear who was giving me real-time feedback from on what i was I was saying. So yeah, it was it was ah really eye-opening.
00:40:00
Robert Fine
That's an interesting application. Yeah.
00:40:02
Sarah Hill
And hangouts was air Hangouts on Air at the time was like a broadcast stick in the middle of a crowdsourcing tool that was YouTube, Google google Plus at the time.
00:40:14
Sarah Hill
you know it did That kind of live streaming didn't exist.
00:40:15
Robert Fine
Yeah. They really lost that opportunity. i don't I don't know how they fumbled social so badly, ah
00:40:24
Sarah Hill
Well, it was a great face-to-face platform. the The whole beauty of that platform was their Hangouts. yeah All of a sudden, you were you know meeting people from around the world, and it just really shrunk the geographic distance between all of us.
00:40:30
Robert Fine
Yeah.
00:40:40
Sarah Hill
And also, you know we use video chat all the time. um in our company. And it clued me in that, you know, you don't have to have a brick and mortar place on one of the coasts to be a tech company. You can form a tech company in the middle of Missouri, but yet you can be in all of those places in a video call. And I learned that very, you know, valuable lesson through the news business and, you know, inviting people to our virtual couch from all over the world.
00:41:12
Robert Fine
Very, very cool. I have to ask you just when you, because ah i I have not, but when you were in Congo, did did you get to go up to, I think it was it's Farunga, and see the Mountain Gorillas?
00:41:22
Sarah Hill
Yeah. Yeah. We stayed in, and we actually stayed in Virunga National Park.
00:41:27
Robert Fine
Okay.
00:41:28
Sarah Hill
And, um, yeah, it was, uh, it was eyeopening.
00:41:28
Robert Fine
I'm very jealous.
00:41:33
Sarah Hill
We actually went out, uh, and, uh, were with the mountain gorillas in there, in the jungle, in the middle of the jungle and, and went with the people who would talk with them.
00:41:47
Sarah Hill
And, um
00:41:48
Robert Fine
i can't I can't believe, i mean, i've I worked in conservation for 10 years and i didn't i didn't, I mean, I was in Brazil, but i never made it to the Amazon and i um I never made it to the Congo. You know, we had ah an early office in Kinshasa, but, you know, I mean, con congo Congo then and still today is not not the safest safest of places.
00:42:10
Sarah Hill
Yeah, and it it wasn't there as well. We were with a UN n escort and the guides that we went in with with the mountain gorilla, you know, we had our big 360 cameras. that when you started recording, you had this fear of six to 12 cameras that their lights would start flashing. And so it was very risky because you had to place the camera down, right?
00:42:34
Sarah Hill
And then you had to go hide so that you didn't have to stitch yourself out of the scene. So you had to go hide behind a bush. ah And there's this mountain gorilla that's you know six feet away and there's flashing lights in front of it.
00:42:49
Sarah Hill
And i mean, what is it going to Is it going to charge the camera? Is going to charge you? Like in hindsight, it wasn't a very good choice to to go out and do that. But wow, to be in the natural habitat, to see them, and you know, you're just feet away from them, no fence or anything. They're they're in their natural environment was um they very eye-opening. One of the places that we went to hide ah mountain gorillas like a lot of red ants.
00:43:17
Sarah Hill
And so... you you're, you would always get poison ivy or whatever, because you're behind a bush hiding so that you don't get picked up in the 360 camera. And all of a sudden I i look at Ken Elias, who was my videographer at the time, he is stripping naked. He's taking off his shirt, his paint. And I'm like, what is going on? He's jumping up and down, freaking out. I'm like,
00:43:45
Sarah Hill
calm down, you're gonna upset the mountain grill. He's going to like charge at you. And I look over, he had red, large red ants crawling up his, his clothing.
00:43:56
Sarah Hill
And so anyway, um a lot of stories from, from, you know, being out in the the trenches of of shooting 360 video.
00:44:05
Robert Fine
are Are those videos still online?
00:44:05
Sarah Hill
many years Yeah. I think they still are on the story up YouTube channel. You can probably find them.
00:44:13
Robert Fine
OK, we'll have to add those to the notes.
00:44:14
Sarah Hill
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Journey of Gold um from story from Story Up is what that one was called. And then, oh the Amazon ones, there were two of them and they're called are You Listening?
00:44:28
Sarah Hill
And we spent, you know, 10 days, I think, with with the Munduruku tribe. And that was just, yeah, it was very eye-opening. And we showed them virtual reality ah They painted us like they paint their native people. It was just, you know, a very delightful experience, despite the the rough terrain of, you know, not having amenities, like not be sleeping out under, you know, a thatched roof with the anacondas and jaguars.
00:45:04
Robert Fine
Yeah. But, but a once in a lifetime opportunity.
00:45:07
Sarah Hill
Absolutely. Yeah.
Helium's Clinical Evolution
00:45:09
Robert Fine
So let's, let's shift to helium, um, 10 years old now, and maybe maybe walk me through a little bit about, you know, the early years and, and, you know, developing the product, finding the right product fit, finding your, your audience and your, and your customers.
00:45:28
Sarah Hill
who Yeah, so we started as ah as a wellness product and we sold to VA a hospitals. We still sell sell to VA and also schools.
00:45:42
Sarah Hill
ah We sold to sports teams. we We won the NFL Innovation Prize, which set us on a path um with with sports teams and areas of stress, basically. And as you you know mature as a company, you're always optimizing your your product market fit. And so, you know ah and we were selling to consumers, right? Basically, we were selling to anyone who was you know ah willing to use the the kits.
00:46:09
Sarah Hill
And as we matured, we found that ah the people who were really pulling it from our hands were the clinics. They were using it the most. ah They would get, you know obviously, really upset if... um The app was down, like it was like, you know, ah water to them because the patients that were coming in their office, you know, they're they're looking for some non-pharmacological solution.
00:46:35
Sarah Hill
And so Helium provided that. And, you know, our product is is unique because it's allowing the people to see their feelings ah in a ah very visual way by, you changing the content that is quantitative data that you don't always get from talk therapy.
00:46:57
Sarah Hill
So ah we pivoted the company, we killed our consumer product um about two years ago and um pivoted to a clinical product. And actually this week, we just announced a to a couple different things, the largest VA deployment in its history for in-home kits, for in-home virtual reality mental kits, mental health kits.
00:47:25
Sarah Hill
And then also ah we announced we're FDA registered now as a 510K exempt ah biofeedback medical device, which, you know, opens up doors
00:47:36
Robert Fine
Wow.
00:47:39
Sarah Hill
New opportunities, billing clinics are getting reimbursed for for using helium. And um yeah, that those are our people. And helium clinical, we still have helium wellness, but are our...
00:47:54
Sarah Hill
ah projects are are focused on on growing that Helium Clinical, the people who who are really you know pulling it from our hands. They ah ah appreciate the beautiful stories, the the beautiful content. And not only that, but the neurofeedback and the biofeedback, ah unique integrations that that we provide. I mean, inside our software, you can literally hold out your hands and see your feelings coming out of your hands.
00:48:25
Sarah Hill
What other you know product allows you ah to interact with your own brain patterns and heart rate and in that very, very, very visual way?
00:48:36
Sarah Hill
And so we're we're excited about growing that and about the you know and and new milestones ahead as as a exempt medical device.
00:48:52
Robert Fine
so So where do you see um the adaptation for the company and the products?
00:48:56
Sarah Hill
Thank you.
00:48:59
Robert Fine
And you know we're going through such an upheaval with with AI and and we're seeing, you know you know maybe you have an opinion on on the state of of the VR market today um and maybe maybe it's impacting you, maybe it's not impacting you.
00:49:19
Robert Fine
I'd i'd be curious to hear your thoughts. ah and And are you are you seeing ah ai glasses as as as the next opportunity or wave? ah where Where's your thinking on all this?
00:49:35
Sarah Hill
So um when you say the VR market, you know certainly from an investor perspective, you know VR is not, ah even XR isn't isn't the sexy thing. But from a value perspective, um you know for instance, Meta's announcements with Horizon Managed Services, that really hasn't impacted us at all because we're not selling to gamers and we're not selling to consumers. That's not our market. And we've never relied on Meta or even the app stores for people just to discover us. um You know, we sell to clinics like they're not on um you know, Meta's app stores. You you know, ah we find each other in in in other ways. So that really hasn't impacted us. In fact, you know, i mean, since that announcement, our business has just accelerated. But, you know, that's been from us doing handto- hand to hand comment from us and also, you know, our
00:50:32
Sarah Hill
ah We have distrid distributors all around the world from, you know, Australia, um Middle East. We have clinics in Costa Rica.
00:50:41
Robert Fine
So so so what's what's caused it to accelerate?
00:50:46
Sarah Hill
A lot of those resellers um in in those those different areas and also distributors as well. We have a number of distributors.
00:50:59
Robert Fine
And so so where are you what what are you thinking about in terms of of product development for the next couple years? or Or is it more about just trying to grow your customer base today?
00:51:12
Sarah Hill
Both. um You don't have one with without the other. So as far as you know what's in our product product pipeline, it's very lengthy. And you know one of the things that we need to cross off because we are in a lot of these different geographic regions is you know of a variety of languages. And you know that can be done through AI. um And so so our path on a lot of these product features have have been shortened.
00:51:41
Sarah Hill
with the new technology and tools that are that are coming about that can enable not only multiple languages, but um you know better summaries, better clinical summaries for our our clinicians, and you know just basically making um i you know our product more delightful and easier to use.
Health, Leadership, and Ethical Tech
00:52:05
Robert Fine
Okay. Um, So I guess maybe maybe towards a little bit of closing, how um how's the heart attack kind of affected your your day-to-day? and And are you are you doing things differently than you did 18 months ago? Or are you still kind of have your same routine? And and is there something special you're having to be careful about?
00:52:37
Sarah Hill
Certainly when you went through life-threatening event, you have to change. You cannot continue to do things as as you did before. I mean, I was healthy before. um Healthy as far as I thought I was healthy.
00:52:53
Sarah Hill
um But, you know, as far as burning the candle at at both ends, stress is like smoking. a six pack A six pack, you know, um ah or or drinking, you know, a six pack a day. Stress is is bad.
00:53:10
Sarah Hill
There's no such thing as good stress. So I do things differently in that I delegate a lot more. And I learned that my incredible team that stepped up and some amazing leaders that that came come out sometimes when you step back. And, you know, as leaders, sometimes you need to do that.
00:53:30
Sarah Hill
you know, so that other people can stand in the gap and actually grow and you can optimize um optimize your team. not recommending anyone out there to go have a heart attack and, um you know, peace out for a number of months. But, you know, the things that i that I do differently are as it relates to delegation and stress. And I really had to teach myself that there are balls, all the balls that you're juggling.
00:53:59
Sarah Hill
There are balls that bounce and balls that break. And so I've gotten really strategic about those balls that will bounce if you drop them.
00:54:14
Robert Fine
What's a what's what keeps you up at night these days, if anything?
00:54:20
Sarah Hill
What keeps me up at night, i like to ensure my employees are are happy and healthy, that what they're finding in their work is challenging and fulfilling.
00:54:33
Sarah Hill
So, you know, in Helium, you know, our most important resource is our team. We are all here you know in office in Columbia, Missouri. We see each other every single day and we like each other's company. um So that doesn't necessarily keep me up, but I have that on my mind a lot.
00:54:52
Sarah Hill
um As a small team, you know we're also thinking about how can we leverage AI even more to optimize you know some of the manual tasks that we're doing now, that's ah you know always in front of our mind.
00:55:10
Sarah Hill
um We ah worry a lot about ah you know data privacy. We collect biometric data, which is a sensitive data set. So there are a lot of, ah you know in a HIPAA compliant, GDP already, NIST aligned, ISO certified back end that you have to in ensure are in in place.
00:55:35
Sarah Hill
And the technology is moving so fast that, you know, it it changes every single day. And this is you know, from someone who's consumes a lot of information, just as my background is is a new news reporter that it's tough to keep up with all of that. and not only keep up with that that at the pace of innovation, but to be able to keep up with the data privacy that's responsible for and ensuring that you know you have ethical decision-making with AI. So you know that's one of the things that keeps up me up at night is how do we move fast, um but also move fast at the speed of trust?
00:56:22
Sarah Hill
ah There's a brilliant brilliant thinker called Dick Flanagan with Casey Digital Health and in Kansas City. And he has a great line that he says, healthcare care moves at the speed of trust.
00:56:36
Sarah Hill
And you know that's really true. and and that's what I think a lot of CEOs in Immersive, in any company really are balancing is how do we move click quickly and ensure that we don't lose our our customers' trust in that quick movement.
00:56:57
Robert Fine
And I guess to finish up, what the what are you most excited about for the rest of 2026?
00:57:05
Sarah Hill
For the rest of 2026, we are super excited. We just added whole new honor tab to the Helium platform. So all of those, World War ii Vietnam, Korea, Women's Memorial, we just added some new content about the Medal of Honor Heritage Center on there. The USS Nimitz out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, which is close to being decommissioned, but yet it's always alive inside virtual reality. We are adding new wearables, new wearable integrations all the time, and and we'll announce those in the next coming months. We integrate with the Muse 2, EEG, EEG headband, Apple Watch, Samsung Galaxy Watch.
00:57:51
Sarah Hill
And if you've never experienced seeing your feelings emanating from your hands, it's a very easy unique experience that makes you more self-aware of how how you need to downshift. So I would encourage anyone to, you know, go to their local clinic or therapist, um tell them about Helium and try it for yourself.
00:58:19
Robert Fine
Well, Sarah, it's been an absolute pleasure.
00:58:24
Sarah Hill
Likewise, it's great to take a deep dive with you.
00:58:24
Robert Fine
I'm glad, I'm glad.
00:58:27
Robert Fine
Yeah, I'm glad we finally was able to get on the calendar and we're almost at at at an hour on the dot. So I think, I think a good, ah a good ah time to, ah to close out, but Sarah, I look forward to seeing you next, wherever that might be. And I wish you well for the, for the rest of the year.
00:58:47
Sarah Hill
Absolutely. And as a bit of advice to all your other companies that are watching this, sometimes when people pull away from the technology, that's a signal to you that maybe you should take a step forward. So keep going and and everything that you guys are are doing and building with immersive.
00:59:06
Robert Fine
Great thought. Thank you.