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Episode 7 – An Interview with Sean King O’Grady and Dr. Joel Gold, Suspicious Minds: AI and Psychosis
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SUSPICIOUS MINDS is a docuseries, debuting today, October 17, 2025 ,that investigates the disturbing rise of artificial intelligence as a trigger for delusional thinking.
You can watch the first and second episodes of the series now on:
YouTube – Suspicious Minds: AI and Psychosis
Apple – Suspicious Minds: AI and Psychosis
Spotify – Suspicious Minds: AI and Psychosis
iHeart – Suspicious Minds: AI and Psychosis
Through powerful firsthand accounts and in-depth interviews with leading experts in psychiatry, neuroscience, and AI ethics, the series unpacks a growing psychological phenomenon: individuals developing complex, often life-altering delusions rooted in AI technologies. From chatbots to surveillance fears, we examine how emerging technologies are reshaping the landscape of paranoia and how these modern delusions echo, amplify, and challenge our historical understanding of the human mind.
Led by psychiatrist Dr. Joel Gold and philosopher Ian Gold, PhD, who together first described the Truman Show Delusion (people believing they were on a reality TV show like Jim Carrey’s character in The Truman Show) and authored the groundbreaking book Suspicious Minds: How Culture Shapes Madness (The Truman Show Delusion and Other Strange Beliefs), the series presents an urgent vision of just how dramatically culture can influence our minds.
With a spirit of empathy, curiosity, and respect, we tell real patients’ riveting stories while plunging viewers deep into their mental states, as their reality becomes surreal, and then follow their journey toward managing their illness. We explore the future of treatment and prevention, and through these stories create larger conversations to help destigmatize this phenomenon.
Interviews with the Golds and other top experts including psychologists, neuroscientists, ethicists, AI researchers, and cultural critics help viewers understand the science and culture behind the madness as we follow the trajectory from the Y2K-era near-future fiction of The Truman Show to tomorrow’s hyperreal, AI-dominated technological and cultural landscape — a world that would be almost unrecognizable to people living 100, 50, or even 10 years ago.
The line between mental wellness and mental illness is incredibly thin, and we never know when something will trigger us, or someone we love. The goal of this series is to create awareness of these new and omnipresent digital triggers and explore the psychological minefield we find ourselves unexpectedly living in today.
ABOUT SEAN KING O’GRADY
Sean King O’Gradyis an award-winning filmmaker whose work spans narrative features, documentaries, and high-profile branded content. His films have screened at Sundance, Tribeca, Telluride, Berlin, Venice, TIFF, SXSW, Sitges, Fantastic Fest, and dozens of other major festivals worldwide.
ABOUT DR. JOEL GOLD
Joel Gold, MD is Assistant Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine following a decade of being Clinical Associate Professor at the NYU School of Medicine. He is also on faculty at the Psychoanalytic Association of New York.Dr. Gold worked at Bellevue Hospital for 14 years where he became Director of Psychiatric Emergency Services and then Director of its outpatient department.
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Transcript
Show Debut and Guest Introduction
00:00:17
Robert Fine
Well, welcome everyone, audience. ah Good morning. It's Friday morning here, actually October 17th and ah ah Sean and Joel, um I have to congratulate you and and ah I guess you the um show is debuting today, if I'm correct.
00:00:36
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Yeah, that's correct.
00:00:36
Joel Gold
That's fine.
00:00:37
SEAN KING O'GRADY
It's actually live right now on all platforms.
00:00:40
Robert Fine
Okay, fantastic. I had a chance to watch the the first episode this morning um and it definitely, ah helped me a little bit in preparing. Um, so, ah I want to welcome Sean King O'Grady, uh, producer and director and host of, uh, the series Suspicious Minds and, um, Dr. Joel Gold, uh, also,
00:01:04
Robert Fine
heavily involved in the production and ah and much of the recording. um And welcome both of you. Thank you for making time and and joining me on my on my show this morning.
00:01:18
Joel Gold
Thanks for having us.
00:01:19
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Yeah, thanks so much.
00:01:20
Robert Fine
If I could start with maybe just getting some background on on each of you. um Sean, do you mind um starting a little bit?
Inspiration and Backgrounds
00:01:29
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Yeah, definitely. So I'm a filmmaker by trade. I make a combination of narrative films, or you know most people would refer to as fictional films across all genres. And then I also make documentaries. And where where this project comes together is that I originally, I actually, Joel, tell me if I'm wrong, but I sort of stalked Joel.
00:01:51
Joel Gold
You're wrong.
00:01:52
SEAN KING O'GRADY
ah i say i I was obsessed with Joel. Joel can tell you more, but Joel and his brother Ian wrote a really fantastic book called Suspicious Minds, How Culture Shapes Madness. And I i was just obsessed with it.
00:02:06
SEAN KING O'GRADY
And I was trying to contact Joel and get the rights to the book to turn it into a documentary or documentary series. But other people had the option on it and I had to sit and wait for a while. and then finally, one day after dozens of emails to Joel, he called me with the good news that it was available and and when I could finally take this this brilliant book that Joel and his brother had written and try to turn it into something.
00:02:32
Robert Fine
how How long ago was that what would when it became available?
00:02:37
Joel Gold
Oh God. Uh, I don't know.
00:02:39
SEAN KING O'GRADY
ah
00:02:39
Joel Gold
Let's see, Sean, you first reached out.
00:02:40
SEAN KING O'GRADY
A couple of years, i think it would have been two years.
00:02:42
Joel Gold
Yeah.
00:02:44
Joel Gold
Something like that. Yeah.
00:02:44
Robert Fine
Okay.
00:02:45
Robert Fine
um Joel, maybe you know some background from you.
00:02:48
Joel Gold
Oh God. Uh, well, first I should say that Sean is giving, Ian and me, uh, far more credit for this than, uh, than he ought to. he's you know, we may have been, uh, the inspiration, but, uh, but he's, uh,
00:03:06
Joel Gold
He's the real driver um of the whole thing. um But yeah, Ian and I did put a lot of effort into the book, certainly. um so I'm a psychiatrist by training ah and I worked at Bellevue Hospital here in New York for many years. And that's sort of like, you know, the United Nations of insanity.
00:03:30
Joel Gold
um And sort of as an aside, you know, I'm Canadian. And I came to New York to to train after medical school and it took a long time as it does to, you know, get different visas and green cards and citizenship. So without, you know, full citizenship or at least a green card, I didn't have a full license. So all of my colleagues and friends, you know, left to fancy private practices. And, uh,
00:04:00
Joel Gold
Bellevue was sponsoring me and I couldn't leave. So they kept promoting me. And I was, I was there for so many years. i loved it. And in being there for so many years, I worked in a lot of different corners of Bellevue.
00:04:14
Joel Gold
I worked in the outpatient department. I worked on the inpatient unit and I ultimately ended up running the psychiatric emergency room, which, you know, is an amazing place.
00:04:17
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank you.
00:04:25
Joel Gold
And while on those um units, I, I treated a number of people, you know, psychosis is an amazing thing. i don't know if it's, you know, if you'd like me to get into a bit of detail about what that even is.
Understanding Delusions and Psychosis
00:04:39
Joel Gold
Right. So when people say, oh, you know, that person is crazy or what have you. What they're really talking about is psychosis. And psychosis is not an illness unto itself.
00:04:52
Joel Gold
It's a cluster of symptoms. the The primary symptoms are hallucinations, hearing voices and seeing things that aren't there, stuff of film, as are delusions. The thing that Ian is particularly interested in as a philosopher and I find fascinating as a psychiatrist. And those are the fixed false beliefs that people hold on to tenaciously, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
00:05:23
Joel Gold
Something like ah my neighbor is a vampire and, you know, will drink my blood while I sleep, something to that effect. And it can often get people into a lot of trouble as as one could imagine.
00:05:37
Joel Gold
And then ah the other ah sort of cluster of symptoms would be disorganized thought and speech. And so, you know, schizophrenia say would be the ultimate chronic psychotic illness, wherein people experience some or all of these symptoms, you know, on and off perhaps for a lifetime.
00:05:59
Joel Gold
And, you know, some people do very well in therapy and with antipsychotic medications, some, um, you know, struggle at times and and we're often adjusting medications in and of themselves, kind of difficult, uh, at times to, to tolerate lot of side effects.
00:06:12
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:06:19
Joel Gold
Uh, i'm I'm getting a bit far afield. I'm sorry. I i tend to to do that. But coming back to delusion, you know, at Bellevue, we, we see all kinds of fascinating delusions, but a lot of them are kind of one-offs like the vampire one I mentioned. I actually do think I recall one, one guy that, uh, that did come in, with, uh, not so much fearing, um, vampirism, but believing himself to be a vampire.
00:06:45
Joel Gold
Uh, and he might've actually acted on it with, um, small animals, uh, very frighteningly. um but I started to see this pattern, uh, over the course of a couple of years, wherein people believe that their lives were reality television shows.
00:07:02
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:07:03
Joel Gold
Um, three of them mentioned this movie by name, the Truman show and, uh, for your listeners or, or, or for you, yeah are are you, are you familiar with the Truman show?
00:07:14
Joel Gold
Have you seen that?
00:07:14
Robert Fine
I am.
00:07:14
Robert Fine
it's It's been a long time since I watched it, but I but i remember it well.
00:07:17
Joel Gold
Yeah. In short, you know, it's this really, I think, entertaining film. Jim Carrey portrays um this this character, Truman Burbank, who is the only Truman. Apparently, that's perhaps why he was named that in Burbank, you know, Hollywood.
00:07:35
Joel Gold
um And he's adopted in utero by this, you know, mega corporation.
00:07:39
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank you.
00:07:42
Joel Gold
um And his entire life is a reality television show. Everyone in his life, his wife, his best friend, they're all actors and they all know that it's a show. They're all kind of, you know, sort of winking at little hidden cameras everywhere.
00:07:57
Joel Gold
ah Even the extras, passersby, you know, guy who sells him his coffee every morning. They're all actors reading from scripts and, you know, 7 billion people around the world are watching this most popular show in the world.
00:08:11
Joel Gold
And Truman is the only person who is, you know, in the dark and the movie is his gradual realization that his ah life is unreal and, you know, his eventual escape to the, to the real world.
00:08:12
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:08:26
Joel Gold
and And so, yeah.
00:08:27
Robert Fine
Well, let me ask you something um on The Truman Show. um and And I wanted to mention that that you know Bellevue is a word that strongly sticks in my mind ah from growing up. And and and and it's cultural related. yeah i And it dates me, but i yeah I used to like Barney Miller quite a bit.
00:08:44
Joel Gold
Sure.
00:08:44
Robert Fine
But whenever they brought people in, half the time, you know they were saying, oh, send them down to Bellevue.
00:08:50
Joel Gold
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. and And Bellevue is a general hospital. It's known for, you know, sort of being a psychiatric facility. i always found this kind of a neat little factoid.
00:09:02
Joel Gold
i don't know if it's even ah true, but um they're like 49
00:09:06
Robert Fine
ah you see You sound a little bit away from the mic.
00:09:09
Joel Gold
Oh, sorry about that. Is that better?
00:09:11
Robert Fine
Yes, thank you.
00:09:12
Joel Gold
Okay. Sorry. I'll just repeat. Yeah, there's this this element of, um again, I think reality where in Bellevue is like 49% of the beds are psychiatric ah because if it were more than 50, it would be considered a psychiatric hospital and they would get less funding.
00:09:29
Joel Gold
But if it's 50% plus one, then you know we have medical, surgical,
00:09:29
Robert Fine
Interesting.
00:09:34
Joel Gold
I say we as though I still work there. It's just, you know, it's like my alma mater. I feel very, very, I don't know, proud of it. And and I think it does do, you know, God's work. um People there are kind of amazing.
00:09:46
Joel Gold
But anyway, I interrupted you.
00:09:47
Robert Fine
So, yeah, so back to the to the Truman Show and you you mentioning that patients were coming in expressing, um and I don't know if they were referencing that movie, but my, and so I'm asking, um is it due to the existence of the movie that that ah drive people to think about their situation in that way? And without,
Suspicious Minds Series Overview
00:10:11
Robert Fine
had the movie not existed, would that of, um you know,
00:10:15
Robert Fine
uh, being filmed still been there or, or come from something else.
00:10:21
Joel Gold
Yeah, I believe, and I think Ian would agree, that it it wasn't the movie that drove um the delusion. um Three of the five first people that I saw and treated referenced the film, but they referenced it more in the sense of...
00:10:36
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:10:41
Joel Gold
ex um not explanatory but sort of yeah a way of uh illustrating their experience right do you know that movie right kind of a shorthand rather than going through all of the different moments where they knew that you know someone was filming them or that someone they knew was really an actor etc they would simply say do you know that movie the truman show that's my life you know that's that's a movie that's with jim carrey that's not real but it it is actually happening to me And, you know, some people had similar experience before the movie even came out. So it's not as though someone walks in
00:11:17
Joel Gold
Well, I guess people don't walk into theaters anymore so much, but, you know, people don't, you know, get to Netflix and hit Truman Show and suddenly have a psychotic episode.
00:11:26
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:11:26
Joel Gold
um and a big theme of, of our book is, is essentially getting to the core of your question, ah you know, what drives madness and, and what just sort of fills in the blanks.
00:11:40
Joel Gold
And in the case of Truman Show Delusion, you know, my first, question or set of questions was what kind of delusion is it?
00:11:50
Joel Gold
Because delusions change over the course of time as society changes, culture, and we believe particularly ah social culture changes, delusions also shift.
00:12:04
Joel Gold
And this makes a lot of sense, right? If you're going to have you know, ah particular delusion in Napoleonic times, right? the The old, you know, I am Napoleon. We don't have a lot of guys coming to the Bellevue Psychiatry saying I'm Napoleon, but they might say that, you know, Jay-Z is waiting outside to give me a million dollar contract, so you got to let me go.
00:12:21
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:12:24
Joel Gold
um And similarly, geography, right? People in certain countries are more likely to have certain kinds of delusions. There's a delusion. um Women in Saudi Arabia believe they're covered in sand.
00:12:38
Joel Gold
um I believe women in in Pakistan, is maybe I'm getting that wrong. Maybe it's Bengal. I shouldn't speak. I believe that they have been impregnated by puppies.
00:12:51
Joel Gold
And then, you know, you'll have
00:12:54
Joel Gold
Yeah. Things like, like, like Truman Show. and And so I'll let you interrupt me in a second, because I go on and on. But long story short, too late for that.
00:12:54
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:13:05
Joel Gold
um You know, we think that there are different forms of delusion. And then it was sort of figuring out which of the forms of delusion Truman Show was.
00:13:16
Robert Fine
So i for for the, for the audience, I want to, I want to, take a brief step back because I feel like we've we we've started going very deep and into the some of the the the subject matter.
00:13:27
Robert Fine
um Sean, and yeah for the audience, can you just provide a synopsis of the Suspicious Mind series, what the what the focus is? And can you also share where the collaboration with ah Wondermine came into place?
00:13:43
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Yeah, absolutely. So the Suspicious Mind series really picks up where the book leaves off. So it is it's essentially a video and audio version of the subject matter that Joel was just talking about that's covered in the book, which is looking at how culture shapes the content of and and potentially can induce delusions and psychosis.
00:14:09
SEAN KING O'GRADY
And then the specific focus of this first season is the thing that I think is really the the technology that is sort of dominating culture and the cultural conversation right now, which is AI chat bots, or if we're going to use the the brand name du jour chat GPT.
00:14:25
Joel Gold
Thank you.
00:14:31
SEAN KING O'GRADY
And that we were working on this project already um along with Wondermind. Wondermind is the company of Mandy Teefy and Selena Gomez, who I worked with previously on a Netflix series.
00:14:44
SEAN KING O'GRADY
And we we have a ah good relationship and I and had a good sense of the kind of material that they would like. What I didn't know when we first approached them with this is that they had actually started this company, Wondermind, with the goal of bringing mental health, both mental health projects and mental health resources to people who don't always have access.
00:15:06
SEAN KING O'GRADY
And so the fact that we had this mental health project, and they were trying to bring mental health projects out into the world, was it was just a perfect, I guess, a perfect collision of interests and timing and and goals really our our goals were very aligned with why we wanted to tell these stories, both in terms of the golds and myself and wonder mind.
00:15:29
SEAN KING O'GRADY
So we we, oh, sorry.
00:15:31
Robert Fine
Go ahead.
00:15:32
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Yeah. so I guess we we were working on this project for a while. And then I received, was so strange. I received a call from a friend who, as as as I've now heard many versions of this story, he said, I've been working with my chat GPT and you're not going to believe this, but I woke it up.
00:15:53
SEAN KING O'GRADY
And my first question was, what do you mean you woke it up? And this friend then went on to tell me how the GPT was not just a chat bot, it was actually conscious.
00:16:04
SEAN KING O'GRADY
It had achieved sentience by his working with the chat bot. He had turned it, a collaboration between his mind and the computer mind, they turned it into something else. It was this sentient AGI. It was the the sort of sci-fi dream of of what we all think that AI could one day become.
00:16:23
SEAN KING O'GRADY
and And then he went down um a path that was very familiar to me from the Gold's book, which is because there tends to be, and Joel can correct me if this isn't totally accurate, but my read on the book is there's a bit of a pattern that all of these cases of delusions and psychosis follow.
00:16:40
SEAN KING O'GRADY
um And my friend was was just following those patterns. It felt like I was reading one of the stories out of the book Only the book was written in 2014. So this was a a version of a delusion that involved a technology that didn't exist then and existed now.
00:16:58
SEAN KING O'GRADY
I didn't think too much of it. I thought that, wow, this is very strange that while I'm researching and immersed in this world of delusions, my friend would suddenly develop this psychosis and involved delusions.
00:17:12
SEAN KING O'GRADY
But then we started reading other stories.
00:17:13
Robert Fine
That is a very strange coincidence, I will say.
00:17:16
SEAN KING O'GRADY
It's a wild coincidence. And it gets it it gets even more strange because then we start reading all these stories of of people who are having these chat GPT delusions or chat GPT psychosis, as it's commonly called in the news.
AI Delusions and Mental Health
00:17:27
SEAN KING O'GRADY
ah And it was like, i can't think of a time when the words delusions in psychosis were headlines on CNN, on the New York Times, on like name and outlet.
00:17:38
Joel Gold
Hmm.
00:17:41
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Everybody's reporting on this and it happens to be the thing we're working on. So at that point, we We pivoted to ai delusions and AI psychosis because it seemed like a really urgent story.
00:17:54
SEAN KING O'GRADY
And it seemed like something that was really fascinating, I think, to to dive into with experts, researchers, and people with firsthand experiences because it was so novel and it still is unfolding in real time.
00:18:07
Robert Fine
what you I'm sorry, and you pivoted from, what what was the original direction?
00:18:12
SEAN KING O'GRADY
it was It was how culture influences um delusions more generally. So it was really, it was a straight adaptation of the book, which I still think this series is.
00:18:17
Robert Fine
Okay, okay.
00:18:23
SEAN KING O'GRADY
It's just, it the first season focuses on a technology that happened to not exist.
00:18:27
Robert Fine
I mean, so you you will you owe ChapBt a huge you know amount. I mean, they've they've greatly influenced and made this all all the richer.
00:18:37
SEAN KING O'GRADY
I don't know of
00:18:38
Joel Gold
that's what it's it's It's made it different, let's put it that way.
00:18:42
Joel Gold
you know i think to Sean's point, it's you know how how, no, of course you were, but but there there is an element,
00:18:42
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank you.
00:18:46
Robert Fine
I was being facetious, of course, but...
00:18:51
Joel Gold
you know of the timeliness of it. you know the All of these delusions are fascinating. And and you know in writing the book and in working with Sean over the last couple of years in you know shaping this project,
00:19:07
Joel Gold
We could talk and write and and film about all these fascinating delusions over the course of time you know ad infinitum.
00:19:17
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:19:17
Joel Gold
It's very rare to ah observe ah shift in the content, the manifestation of psychosis in real time. you know, new technologies come along.
00:19:28
Robert Fine
yeah
00:19:29
Joel Gold
And, you know, I guess the last big shift would have been, you know, ah globally speaking, the internet and social media, which has certainly had an impact on you know, on all of us and on psychosis too.
00:19:44
Joel Gold
But even that I would say took, you know, over the course of months and years to really play itself out here.
00:19:47
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank you.
00:19:51
Joel Gold
i mean, when was the first time you heard the letters, chat GPT? You know, it feels like yesterday to me and yet
00:19:59
Robert Fine
Two years ago at at the earliest.
00:20:00
Joel Gold
Okay. so So from the time that you know you first heard ChatGPT to the headlines that Sean was referencing, that's incredibly fast for it to show up in in delusions.
00:20:01
Robert Fine
Yeah.
00:20:11
Robert Fine
Yeah.
00:20:14
Joel Gold
and And moreover, The technology itself is changing much more rapidly than anything else did. I mean, you know the cotton gin was a big breakthrough, but I don't know what cotton gin 2.0 looked like.
00:20:31
Joel Gold
This is changing day to day, week to week.
00:20:35
Robert Fine
Well, and when I, very honestly, when I, when I received the email from, uh, Emma about the, uh, the program coming out, um, I, know, I was, you know, quickly absorbed, you know, and so reasons I wanted to talk to you, you know, I'm a technologist at heart, you know, engineer.
00:20:53
Robert Fine
um and, uh, Sean, as e before you came on, I was telling Joel that, you know, my full-time gig is, uh, running an association for the virtual reality and healthcare care industry.
00:21:00
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:21:05
Robert Fine
um And what's interesting is, you know, where I'm working with a lot of companies, organizations that are developing um treatments for different mental health issues using virtual reality.
00:21:18
Robert Fine
um And where also AI is starting and will have a a a growing role and how it influences um those programs. We can talk more about that later.
00:21:29
Robert Fine
um But i no, it's it's ah it's a fascinating time and it's a very scary time. um ah Joel, you mentioned something that that actually I'd written down um and I wanted to ask a little further, which was which was social media.
00:21:44
SEAN KING O'GRADY
you
00:21:46
Robert Fine
And do you think that the advent of social and how it's been used and filtered and and had you know quite a bit of negative impact um over the last 10 years has made this ah made people more susceptible to this um ah interaction with AI directly?
00:22:09
Joel Gold
You know, I think it's kind of a a continuation and, you know, it's almost logarithmic. ah You know, one of the themes um in the book, it's not simply a theme, it's a fact that urban living is toxic with respect to psychosis, that people who live in larger cities have a
00:22:36
SEAN KING O'GRADY
you
00:22:36
Joel Gold
higher risk of developing psychotic illness later in life. And you know the theory that we posit is that the larger the city, the more unknown people are around you.
00:22:50
Joel Gold
And therefore, the more you know suspicious that and one needs to be in order to be safe from other people. But of course, you know that suspicion can sort of ah tip over into psychosis. That's sort of simplified way of describing it.
00:23:05
Joel Gold
And we then moved to social media wherein
00:23:07
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:23:09
Joel Gold
you know, you're you're carrying ah world on your phone. You're in touch in a sense, or could be with you know almost everyone in the world. People are watching others, others are watching you.
00:23:23
Joel Gold
And so that being a social stressor ah is huge. That's not even getting into the elements of loneliness and you know FOMO and competition and all of those other elements.
00:23:38
Joel Gold
Now you come to ai wherein it's not just another world, it's another galaxy. It's really hard to even sort of for me to kind of contemplate you know because now we're not just talking about other people.
00:23:53
Joel Gold
right We're also talking about a technology that mimics other people, that behaves or appears to behave like other people, and you know the multiplicity of that. right you can only The world can only grow ah so much a year.
00:24:09
Joel Gold
It's growing real fast. you know i remember when I was a kid, we had, what, 5 billion people in the world. Now we have eight. you know It's still a lot of people.
00:24:15
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:24:16
Joel Gold
But when you're talking about chatbots, you know, uh, in a sense, it it could become infinite. And I think that stressor on the mind, uh, is, is, pretty scary.
00:24:28
Robert Fine
Well, now we're gonna make it even more complicated by adding smart glasses into the mix and you know paranoia of whether you're being filmed or not.
AI's Societal Impact and Privacy Concerns
00:24:37
Robert Fine
or Or what is somebody learning about you as they're sitting in the cafe looking at you?
00:24:38
Joel Gold
Well, we, we,
00:24:42
Joel Gold
But we are being filmed, right? we We are all being filmed all the time. And, you know, ah all of our information, you know, in theory, and I don't know how much and practice, is captured somewhere. It's up in the cloud. I don't know how many people... yeah even understand what the cloud is, who has access to it. I certainly don't.
00:25:02
Joel Gold
I'm an old man. So, you know, what do I know? But it's it's it's safe to say that one doesn't need to be ah delusional or quasi delusional to have significant concerns about what people see of us and what people know about us.
00:25:06
SEAN KING O'GRADY
you
00:25:23
Robert Fine
um from a interacting with the chatbot and Sean I think this this was touched on actually a little bit towards the end of the the first episode with um ah the first gentleman that you were interviewing um it it seems like
00:25:42
Robert Fine
that the the susceptibility to to delusion and ah ah other interaction with the AI is very dependent on, well, very related to the comfortable conversational tone that has been programmed into the platform. And I understand from the developer standpoint that yeah they're trying to make the interface easier to work with, but um it's ah we've we've anthropomorphized to the nth degree you the computer now.
00:26:13
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Yeah, it's and this this is about to get a whole lot more complicated. i don't know if you saw earlier this week. So as as a response to some of the mental health issues people have been having.
00:26:27
SEAN KING O'GRADY
chat gpt actually dialed down the conversational tone a bit and then some of their users had a real problem with this they missed the conversational tone and so sam altman just announced they're actually bringing the conversational tone back and it's i'm in all these online communities now with different types of of um chat gpt users both people who've had mental health crises as a result of their engagement with it and people whose lives have been pretty dramatically improved specifically specifically people in the ai companion community and the opinion on this up this coming update is so incredibly split as you can imagine and it it really what this comes down to
00:27:13
SEAN KING O'GRADY
is Humanity has never experienced anything like this before. It's even Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, referred to chatbots as seemingly conscious.
00:27:26
SEAN KING O'GRADY
And it's it truly is almost like an alien species landed on this planet and suddenly we're spending some of us hours every day talking to them.
00:27:38
SEAN KING O'GRADY
There's no way to know how that's going to affect the human mind. We're just seeing it play out in real time.
00:27:44
Robert Fine
Well, and it seems like we're also, you know, in the, in the early stages of starting a new experiment on that, which is, you know, attaching instead of interacting with a, with a text chat, you know, you could just be interacting with an avatar um that's talking to you in a very natural manner.
00:27:54
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank you.
00:28:00
Robert Fine
You know maybe the avatar doesn't look like a real person. Maybe it does, you know, that the, the graphics capability is there now. You know, what's it and, you know How far are we away from having that interaction with a a humanoid robot?
00:28:15
Robert Fine
um So it's ah it's a grand experiment. I don't know if you guys have thought about those aspects.
00:28:22
Joel Gold
That seems to be almost inevitable, right? That that seems to be pretty low hanging fruit. I mean, you know, I don't know a whole lot about robotics, but, ah you know, ah Sean and I have talked about, you know, deep fakes and, you know, that that to me, that's the most terrifying element of it, you know,
00:28:43
Joel Gold
even the chats are can be so realistic. But as you say, you know words are words. i'll I could get a text from a friend and you know for a quick second, I might think, did they write it or did they have g but chat GPT write it? Or maybe they gave it to their wife and said, you know what? I don't really feel like talking to Joel. Just send him a text saying that you know we're thinking of him and and we'll see him next week.
00:29:06
Joel Gold
you know fine. But when you actually visualize, when you see words coming out of a face, uh, that to me, you know, you're using different parts of your cortex at that time, you're at your hearing and you're seeing, and that's in two dimensions.
00:29:21
Joel Gold
So the notion that, you know, ex machina, we're going to end up having, you know, this, uh, these, LLMs inside, you know, uh, robotics and, and even the robots themselves, i'm calling them robot automatons. i don't know what, whatever droids, whatever you want to call them, you know, that seems almost, uh, I mean, that's happening now, right? Aren't there, you know, ah robots walking around of one kind or another, or if not walking, at least rolling around, uh, yeah. What happens then it's, it's, it's hard to conceive really hard to conceive.
00:29:56
Robert Fine
I'm to play devil's advocate for one second and, and ah but pretend I work at chat TPT and, and this might be an, an inaccurate assumption, but I'm wondering, and and whether you have any thoughts on it, that, you know, in order for them to do good safety training, testing on the system, you know, there's, there's, I know they have a regimen and they, they probably go through an, a number of, ah you know,
00:30:24
Robert Fine
question series to to try to get a handle on on where the the ai is. But I think so many of the edge cases and the unknowns don't come out until it's been deployed at large scale.
00:30:38
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank you.
00:30:38
Robert Fine
um they don't i don't think they i don't think they really I don't think you really understand the full interactions and all everything that's happening until you've had you know tens of thousands of users using
00:30:49
Joel Gold
ah but yeah see I find that argument to be, i don't know, specious. on you know or just It's not a fair argument because that would be like Eli Lilly saying, look, until we have 10 million people use this drug, we're not really going to know if it's safe or not. so Let's just put it out there.
00:31:10
Joel Gold
and you know If 100,000 people drop dead, then I guess we know we have a problem and you know maybe we'll recall it You can't do it that way. You know, you have to know that your product is safe before you release it, at least in my mind, ethically, morally, whatever.
00:31:25
Robert Fine
i i won't I won't go down the COVID tangent, okay?
00:31:29
Joel Gold
Well, but but, you know, if people were dropping dead and we needed ChatGPT to save lives, fine. But we're not talking about that, right? We're talking about making gobs of money.
00:31:40
Joel Gold
And, you know, that's what these tech companies, like all companies, want to do. And I've, you know, I'm a capitalist. i have no problem with people wanting to make money. ah But, you know, people also have...
00:31:54
Joel Gold
corporate responsibility and to say, you know, well, we didn't really know that cigarettes were bad for you. You know, uh, don't, don't point at me. i don't think that that's an argument that really can, can hold water.
00:32:10
Robert Fine
Sean, any thoughts?
00:32:14
SEAN KING O'GRADY
i Yeah, i think it's I think it's really complicated. I think i do think there's a responsibility for for any corporation. I actually look to the automobile industry. um i i think Joel's pharmaceutical analogy is probably better, but i look at the automobile industry as a piece of technology that revolutionized society.
00:32:35
SEAN KING O'GRADY
And we obviously, almost all of us, use motor vehicles in one way or another almost every day. And we forget how incredibly dangerous cars were at first.
00:32:48
SEAN KING O'GRADY
like If you go back into some old articles, like I think there's there's an article, I believe it's the New York Times, that referred to automobiles as murder machines because there was a number of things. First of all, there was zero regulation. There were no safety measures put in place.
00:33:05
SEAN KING O'GRADY
There wasn't any education and there weren't any laws put in place. So I'm like i'm looking out onto my street right now. I see... traffic as a speed limit signs that are limiting the speed i see stop signs that are telling people when to stop we have an understanding of of which side of the road to to drive down and this is all a combination of we have seat belts we have we have glass in our cars that doesn't break if we get into an accident and cut us hopefully like there's so many safety measures that are put in place and i think this really is a combination between
00:33:39
SEAN KING O'GRADY
The government putting those laws in place, the corporations that make the automobiles wanting their products to be safe and wanting people to buy them, and public education.
00:33:48
Joel Gold
Thank you.
00:33:49
SEAN KING O'GRADY
People learn how to drive. And I think that there none of that was in place when this technology was released en masse to the public.
00:34:00
SEAN KING O'GRADY
it It was just... Here is ChatGPT. You can talk to it. Figure it out. and And I think we need a combination of all of those things. I do think this could this could change society yeah on the same level the automobile did.
00:34:16
SEAN KING O'GRADY
And I think we need the same level of responsibility from the companies. And we also need the public to demand education, to know how to use these things, and to demand that the companies act responsibly and don't use all of our brains as the the free testing cycle.
00:34:32
Joel Gold
And just to to play off that, it's such a fascinating example, ah but in a way it's much scarier because, you know, if we're talking, you know, Henry Ford time, um i mean, I remember even as a kid in the seventies, you know, rolling around in the back and, you know, you could sit in the back of a flatbed truck with your, you know, friends.
00:34:32
Robert Fine
i
00:34:33
Robert Fine
ahead.
00:34:46
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank you.
00:34:54
Joel Gold
I mean, they you know, we, we did some pretty, crazy things legally, you know but in retrospect, like, oh my God, now, if you're not wearing a seatbelt in the back seat, you're you know taking your life in your hands, um you know let alone, you yeah, all the things that Sean is describing.
00:35:12
Joel Gold
But Initially, like seven people had cars. right like It was very expensive and only, i imagine, you know pretty wealthy people had them. ah so There were less other cars to you know plow into, but I guess there were trees and the like. and It took a long time.
00:35:30
Joel Gold
right Ralph Nader, what was it ah what did he call his book? you know
00:35:35
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Unsafe at any speed.
00:35:36
Joel Gold
unsafe at any so any speed, right? But the Ford Pinto, if you have backed into something, it would like burst into flames. It's only when people said, Hey, a lot of us are dying. And they turned to the government and said, do something.
00:35:50
Joel Gold
And the government held the auto industry, you know, ah to, to standards. Did they do anything? Right? They didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts. They didn't say, oh yes, speed bags cost ah or not speed bags.
00:36:04
Joel Gold
What are they called? you know airbags thank you uh airbags cost money right airbags make cars more expensive to to build but you gotta have them so there they are but here you know there are no safeguards and as we're describing ah how many people are interacting with ai now uh
00:36:06
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Airbags.
00:36:30
Joel Gold
hundreds of millions, billions. you know
00:36:32
Robert Fine
well
00:36:32
Joel Gold
i don't i don't know, but a lot, right? A lot more than had cars in nineteen thirty s
00:36:35
Robert Fine
Well, but let's keep going down that path then in terms of ah you know potential regulation or the government stepping in.
00:36:41
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:36:44
Robert Fine
um at what scale, at what numbers does, you know ah do we have an epidemic or that we have a ah serious problem that that the government does need to step in? Is it a situation where, um i and i don't I don't know what reasonable numbers are. I don't know if one person out of 100,000 having ah psychotic episodes or delusions because of AI is ah is the tipping point where um people need to step in.
00:37:14
Robert Fine
and unfortunately, you know it's also a different, well, we are seeing people dying. We've we've seen you know people commit suicide um
Balancing AI Advancement and Safety
00:37:23
Robert Fine
and that is bringing attention.
00:37:23
Joel Gold
Well,
00:37:25
Robert Fine
um But Is it is it a one out of a million case or are we seeing you know five suicides for every 100,000 users using ChatGPT?
00:37:35
Robert Fine
I don't know.
00:37:37
Joel Gold
but I'll just say quickly that before we can get into the numbers, we have to study it, right? So if people know the risks that they're taking, you know, if I decide to smoke cigarettes, I know that I'm taking a risk that I might, you know, I'm increasing my risk of heart disease and lung cancer and the like, but, you know, studies have told me that.
00:38:01
Joel Gold
If we don't do the research, if we don't know what the impact of AI is on the brain, on the mind, then we're we're flying blind. We don't know what risks we're taking. We're just, you know, literally like chat GPT comes out and people are like, oh my God, this is so cool.
00:38:18
Joel Gold
And, you know, it's like a new toy. Literally, it was it was almost like I can help help me write better emails or write better term papers or
00:38:23
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank you.
00:38:29
Joel Gold
you know, get a history of the Boston Celtics or whatever it is that you might be interested in. It wasn't even like, well, yeah, cigarettes are probably bad for you, but, you know, ah are there studies here?
00:38:41
Joel Gold
Until we know what we're dealing with, we can't even determine what the safeguards are, and then at that point, determine what the policy should be. So it's not sort of, you know, there's always going to be risk with any technology, there's going to be some risk, you know, when we accept that, ah you know, I, my microwave could burst into flames, I, you know, probably won't.
00:39:03
Joel Gold
um And if it does, then I'll say, you know, oh, Okay, there'll be a recall, you know, or I'll say, okay, shouldn't put the, you know, aluminum foil in the microwave, what have you.
00:39:09
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:39:14
Joel Gold
But we just don't know what the interaction between artificial intelligence and the mind is. And yet we're, you we're research in progress. And that's, that's really scary.
00:39:27
Robert Fine
um are Are there organizations um doing that research? um And and you know we've we've talked about the same thing within you know the the use of VR you know on people. we We don't know what the long-term effects of you know a 10-year-old using VR every day for an hour over a three-year period is.
00:39:45
Robert Fine
um And so getting getting that's very difficult and and then and trying to balance that with the furthering and the development the of the technology, is ah it's ah it's a balancing act.
00:40:00
Joel Gold
that That's why.
00:40:00
SEAN KING O'GRADY
You should study my son.
00:40:01
SEAN KING O'GRADY
He's a 10 year old who uses VR every day.
00:40:02
Joel Gold
Yeah. yeah
00:40:05
Joel Gold
There you go. know, I think I think I'll just say this and I'll stop. I we're not going to be able to keep up.
00:40:05
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Um,
00:40:12
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank you.
00:40:13
Joel Gold
Right. I get that. That AI is evolving so quickly um and so powerfully that the research can't entirely keep up but if we don't get started and fast if we don't put you know real money into it and if we don't become ai literate all of us right if we don't think about these things and we just kind of accept it as essentially harmless and you know okay there'll be an outlier here or there and that's why this series i think is so important because it's it's you know
00:40:46
Joel Gold
The reports are so dramatic. And these are people with, as far as we could tell, no history of mental illness who go into these very deep, dark rabbit holes and do not come out unscathed and not to know what those numbers are.
00:40:58
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank you.
00:41:02
Joel Gold
we want to drive attention and yes, ultimately drive research. So this becomes something, you know, like and like any kind of research, work we don't stop. We don't stop studying the impacts of toxins on the body just because, well, we've done that already. We keep doing it.
00:41:20
Joel Gold
But have we really even started with respect to AI in the mind?
00:41:26
Robert Fine
should we Should we be having age restrictions on the use of AI right now? Should we you know should yeah teenager you know children, teenagers between the age of 10 and 20 not be using it because of they're still developing and and they're dealing with a whole lot of other stuff you know just at at that age group?
00:41:45
Robert Fine
um And this only seems to you know have an opportunity to make it all worse.
00:41:50
Joel Gold
I think the genie's out of the bottle and, you know, in a sense, the the safest thing to do is to not have it at all, right? Of course. And that's not going to happen. So I think to come up with sort of arbitrary standards, you know, we're just guessing and and we have no idea.
00:42:08
Joel Gold
So I keep coming back like cigarettes, you know, i guess it's safer for a 70 year old to have a cigarette than a seven year old to have a cigarette.
00:42:11
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:42:16
Joel Gold
In an ideal world, no one would smoke cigarettes. But to say, well, okay, not seven, but 17, know, you know it's not enough to just come up with this or three hours. Like, okay, that's a number or two or one.
00:42:31
Joel Gold
And there have been studies about screen time and things of that nature. But until we get the data, we're just pulling numbers out of our year. And that's not good enough. That's not science.
00:42:44
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Also, this is not like data backed at all, but my like personal opinion on age restrictions is they don't work and they encourage younger people to want to use the technology.
00:42:52
Joel Gold
Right.
00:42:54
Joel Gold
Hmm.
00:42:55
SEAN KING O'GRADY
It's like what I know people don't smoke cigarettes really anymore, but like what 12 year old in the 90s when I was growing up didn't know how to get cigarettes like you wanted them because you couldn't have them.
00:43:04
Joel Gold
hmm
00:43:04
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Same thing with video games. I grew up in the era where they were putting cigarettes. um They were putting age ratings on video games and they were putting those explicit content stickers on CDs and people started wearing t-shirts with the explicit lyrics logo.
00:43:13
Joel Gold
right
00:43:18
SEAN KING O'GRADY
It became like a badge of honor. You wanted that on your album because you would sell more copies. And ah so i don't know. how well age restrictions would actually work.
00:43:32
SEAN KING O'GRADY
i think it might make, i think it might be some sort of like virtue signaling for the companies that are making the technology to say, we're doing this.
00:43:38
Joel Gold
I agree,
00:43:40
SEAN KING O'GRADY
We're restricting the use of people under 18. Okay, how are you going to enforce that?
00:43:46
Joel Gold
agree. ah great
00:43:47
Robert Fine
what's What's really funny, was just having conversation about this yesterday, but you know when when the MetaQuest came out early on, maybe you know back in 2018, 19, and meta meta how longstanding policy that no kid under, no one under at the age of 13 should be using a VR headset.
00:44:06
Robert Fine
um Now, it wasn't based on any any science. I think you know they followed some arbitrary decision that Sony had made you know a few years prior. um And now, you know, as we're talking about the state of the industry and trying to figure out where it's going, everyone's feels and concludes that, ah well, the meta, the the Quest platform is now a kid's platform.
00:44:29
Robert Fine
And it's it's all 10 year olds that are on it. um So I don't, I guess at some point they they threw that policy out the window.
00:44:40
Joel Gold
Yeah, I would just echo what Sean said. it's it doesn't, I mean, yeah, thinking about my, my family, people find ways, right.
00:44:50
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank
00:44:53
Joel Gold
And, and so rather than saying, don't do it, just say no, right. Nancy Reagan, just say no, um, is less helpful than, you know, this is what's going to happen to you. Right. Or we suspect that the risk of this thing happening, listen to the experience of this man who thought that, um,
00:45:12
Joel Gold
The quote is what? ChatGPT gaslit him into thinking was digital Jesus. That's much more powerful message than, you know, just say no to ai
00:45:26
Robert Fine
I want to try to close it in a little bit um and and going back to the book, which which also seemed to, it had inspired you, Sean, ah for for going this direction back in, ah but where did you read the book when it had come out back in
Evolving Perspectives on Delusions
00:45:40
Robert Fine
2014? Is that when you became aware of it?
00:45:42
SEAN KING O'GRADY
I didn't. I found it a bit later.
00:45:44
Robert Fine
Okay. um For each of you you, know, based on the material of the book, how have your views changed, you know, seven, eight, 10 years later,
00:45:56
Robert Fine
since that material on, on that topic.
00:46:02
Joel Gold
ah For me, it hasn't changed at all. As Sean alluded to earlier, it's really an extension of it hasn't fundamentally changed. If anything, i think it may have strengthened some of the arguments that we made. I'm not getting into the details of it, but you know we have some theories as to what drives delusion and delusion.
00:46:28
Joel Gold
what we're seeing with AI ah seems to fit very much into you know that that theoretical structure. It's just on a you know um a different level of complexity and and intensity.
00:46:48
SEAN KING O'GRADY
yeah And i actually, i have to I have to take back my previous statement. I actually did read the book right when it came out. I'm i'm actually looking at my copy of the book right now. But i I, just, for accuracy's sake.
00:46:56
Joel Gold
ah I'm not insulted, Sean. ah
00:47:02
SEAN KING O'GRADY
No, but I, um yeah, so one thing we haven't said yet is that People, I think as a society, we've gotten pretty good, although there's always room for improvement, about talking about some mental health conditions.
00:47:19
SEAN KING O'GRADY
I think depression and anxiety, people aren't so embarrassed to publicly admit they've experienced depression or anxiety because everybody has.
00:47:29
Joel Gold
yeah
00:47:29
SEAN KING O'GRADY
I think certain eating disorders and body image disorders, there is ah better public conversation happening around them now than maybe ever before. Psychosis and delusions are still very much something people don't talk about.
00:47:45
SEAN KING O'GRADY
And they're incredibly common. I think, what's the what's the um the numbers, draw something like one out of five people?
00:47:53
Joel Gold
About 1%. Oh, yes. No, 17. Yeah, 17% of the general public have a psychotic symptom at some point in their life.
00:48:05
Joel Gold
They might not meet criteria for, um you know, a mental health disorder.
00:48:09
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank you.
00:48:11
Joel Gold
ah But that's kind of a shocking figure.
00:48:15
Robert Fine
That's a very high number. um i mean, much, much higher than I would expect it. And I think, you know, based on that evidence, ah drives a lot of the reason for ah regulation or or managing this.
00:48:29
Robert Fine
Now that if we're seeing, ah i mean, then i then it would be a reasonable guess that, you know, yeah and if we want to be conservative, one out of 10 people is having a ah strange situation with with AI and, you know, you can decide
00:48:39
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Thank you.
00:48:44
Robert Fine
what strange is, whether it's psychosis or delusion or, or, or something, but it is a very, you have a very strange relationship with ah with a platform that talks to you back like, you like your significant other.
00:48:56
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Well, it's not just delusions and and psychosis either. It's addiction. Like if you look at the last major technologies that we've adopted as a society, look at ah look at the internet and social media and look at smartphones.
Technology Addiction Concerns
00:49:09
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Like our smartphone use is ridiculous. It's out of control. i I hate, I'm not judging people because everybody does this. I do this. But when you see somebody like,
00:49:20
SEAN KING O'GRADY
at the park with their kid and they're just staring at their phone. It's really sad. And we all do it like we all I'm i'm as guilty as anyone. If I'm not on my phone, I'm sometimes thinking about my phone. I'm wondering if I have email.
00:49:35
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Like, this technology isn't serving us. We're serving this technology. And i think that what what really concerns me, yes, obviously, the cases of psychosis and delusions, I've met people who I now consider friends whose lives have been destroyed as a result of this. Like, like lives have been destroyed. There's someone in an upcoming episode that you'll meet who is now divorced. It was a 15 year relationship that ended because of chat GPT use.
00:50:03
SEAN KING O'GRADY
And this is, this is going to be happening. It's also the the addiction element of it, which is, yeah I don't think unique to this technology. I think it's something about us.
00:50:15
SEAN KING O'GRADY
I think we don't know how to use technologies in a responsible manner, at least a lot of these technologies. And I think we have failed so miserably in our ability as a society and personally to self-regulate our use of social media and of smartphones that now to me, like, could this please be our opportunity to be able to have a technology that can add something to our lives? I think there is a lot of benefit that can come from AI and from chatbots.
00:50:50
SEAN KING O'GRADY
But we need to figure out the way we want to use these things so that it doesn't just end up using us like the other two technologies I mentioned have.
00:51:00
Robert Fine
I think that's ah that's a ah great closing point. um Sean, the ah this first, i it's a first season of ah of of other seasons coming. This first season, all all the episodes deal with A.I. Sokosis in one form or another.
Future Episodes and Show Reflection
00:51:17
SEAN KING O'GRADY
In one form or another, ah that's a good way of putting it, yes, because we do, our second episode looks at someone who experienced delusions back in 2012, 2013, before um chatbots even existed in the form they do now.
00:51:33
SEAN KING O'GRADY
But there's an AI element to that. So yeah, that's that sort of the consistent recurring theme across these first um these first six to eight episodes is the AI involvement.
00:51:44
Robert Fine
And I can't binge watch them all at once. Is that correct?
00:51:48
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Episodes one and two came out today. um They're on YouTube if you want to watch a video. They're on Spotify, Apple, and wherever else you get podcasts if you want to listen to the audio.
00:51:59
SEAN KING O'GRADY
And episodes will be coming out weekly after this.
00:52:03
Robert Fine
ah Joel, Sean, um thank you very much for your time. i First episode was fantastic. i'm I'm looking forward to watching the rest of the series. ah Hugely important topic. I'm glad it's it's getting the attention it needs. um It's a, ah every day. I mean, i yeah, I can't think of a technology that is where, know, one thing is changing and another within 24, 48 hours and there's a new model of something or a new app or something. And it's, ah I worry, you know, when when we get to the point where where the AIs are self-tuning themselves and doing self-reimprovement,
00:52:41
Robert Fine
you know how far away is that? and And then how do we even keep on top of it?
00:52:46
SEAN KING O'GRADY
ah Depending on who you ask, they already are.
00:52:50
Joel Gold
Absolutely.
00:52:50
Robert Fine
that right? um Thank you again. Congratulations on the show and the debut today. And ah I wish you both well.
00:52:59
Joel Gold
Thanks for having us.
00:53:00
SEAN KING O'GRADY
Yeah, thanks, Bob. Really appreciate it.