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Why More Families Are Turning to Death Doulas for End of Life Support
43 Plays22 days ago
What does a death doula actually do, and why are more families turning to them during some of life’s most difficult moments?
In this episode, Jennifer Muldowney sits down with death doula Nicole to explore the growing role of death doulas in end-of-life care. Nicole shares her journey from a career in human resources to supporting individuals and families through the dying process after experiencing the loss of her mother and aunt. She explains what a death doula does, how the role differs from medical professionals, and why emotional support can be just as important as physical care.
The conversation dives into legacy work, difficult family conversations, caregiving, hospice support, and the challenges families often face when navigating death. Nicole also opens up about her earliest experiences around death, how those moments shaped her calling, and why helping people find comfort, connection, and peace at the end of life has become her life's work.
Jennifer and Nicole also discuss the evolving place of death doulas within the funeral industry, the growing need for end-of-life support as populations age, and the importance of creating space for every professional involved in helping families through loss.
Key Topics:
-What a death doula actually does and how they support families
-Why Nicole left corporate HR to follow a calling in end-of-life care
-The importance of legacy work and preserving family stories
-Why end-of-life caregiving takes a village of support
-How unresolved relationships can affect the dying process
-The growing role of death doulas in modern funeral care
Quotes from the episode:
“If you’ve never been with a dying or deceased person, how can you call yourself a death doula?”
— Jennifer Muldowney
“It takes a village to raise a child. The same could be said for taking care of a dying loved one.”
— Nicole Hoover
Timestamps:
[01:08] From HR to Death Doula
Nicole shares how losing her mother and aunt pushed her to leave corporate life and follow a calling she never expected.
[06:44] Nicole explains how simple words like “you’re loved and supported” can bring comfort at the end of life.
[08:44]Nicole talks about legacy work and why families should preserve stories before it’s too late.
[13:09] Jennifer asks a bold question about experience, training, and what should really qualify someone for this work.
[14:39] Nicole explains why families need more than medical care when someone they love is near the end.
[18:43] Nicole shares her early experience in a nursing home and how it shaped the way she sees death today.
[23:15] Jennifer and Nicole discuss the hard truth about getting paid for work that is deeply emotional and personal.
[25:01] Nicole opens up about the very different deaths of her mother and aunt, and what those experiences taught her.
Connect with Nicole Hoover at:
Websites - www.deathdoulanicole.com
Email: Nicole@deathdoulanicole.com
Connect with Jennifer/The Glam Reaper on socials at:
Instagram - / jennifermuldowney
TikTok - / therealglamreaper
YouTube - / @theglamreapermuldowney
LinkedIn - / jennifermuldowney
Facebook Page - / muldowneymemorials
Email us - glamreaperpodcast@gmail.com
Shop Merch - https://the-glam-reaper.printify.me/
Listen to The Glam Reaper Podcast on Apple Podcasts:
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Transcript
Introduction: Support in Life and Death
00:00:00
Speaker
Sometimes it's just those calming words of we have you, you're loved and supported. It's okay. It takes a village to raise a child. And honestly, now having walked this path, I feel that the same could be said for taking care of a dying loved one.
Introducing the Glam Reaper Podcast and Guest
00:00:27
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Glam Reaper podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Muldeny, aka the Glam Reaper. And on today's episode, we are going back into our doulaship training.
00:00:39
Speaker
We have Death Doola Nicole joining us here on the podcast to talk all things Death Doola. Nicole, welcome. Thank you for having me. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you are. We're recording it in the morning, so we're going to say morning. Everyone's listening to it at whatever points in their life, which is good. So a lot of people like to take us on the road, which I enjoy.
00:00:59
Speaker
You know, we're accompanying them on their long road to
Nicole's Journey to Becoming a Death Doula
00:01:02
Speaker
trips. So Nicole, um give us a little bit of a backstory as to who you are and how you came to being on the podcast. Absolutely. So I am, as you mentioned, i am a death doula. i am non-medical, so I don't even touch a Tylenol bottle. Prior to this calling, because honestly, Jennifer, it is a total calling, I was in human resources. And so for some of your listeners, they might hear Glam Reaper, h r what a great combination. But I think that my HR background really helped give me a foundation for this work at as a death doula, you know, between navigating difficult conversations, sort of documenting processes or plans that seems to come in handy. I lost my mom and my paternal aunt, both within a pretty close time period.
00:01:56
Speaker
And after taking care of them and being the executor of two estates, I realized that going back to corporate America just was really not going to fill my cup.
00:02:09
Speaker
And i quit my job with literally no plan in place. And lo and behold, about six weeks later, I came across an article about a death doula and everything in it literally spoke to my heart on what I was doing for the past few years. And I reached out and started my training, graduated in July 2025, and honestly haven't looked back once
00:02:40
Speaker
Wow. So you're nearly a year you're coming up on your year anniversary. Correct. And it's, you know, it's interesting when you mentioned HR. I was actually just talking about this and with a friend of mine, actually two it's two separate people, a professional person and a friend of mine and in this past week. And my with a friend of mine, i was just saying how working with people is the best and the worst in the world.
00:03:02
Speaker
So anybody who works in HR, I help hold take off my hat too, because you're choosing to work just with people. Like I have a business. We're in three kind of four states at the minute. And it's just it's a lot because you're relying on people to do things that you did. You know, it's a lot of I'm a bit of a control freak. Yeah. And it's a lot to have your baby be in the hands of somebody else, right?
00:03:25
Speaker
There's certain things that I like babysitting, whatever. i i I mean, I started out managing people. Like it was one of my first jobs straight out of college when I was 20 managing people. And it's a lot. You're dealing with people. i mean, you know, if you've got a lot of women on your staff every month or if they're not in cycle, like and if they offer it, see, it's more but like just people are tired. People's family situations creep in when people are sick. Mental health. There's just so much.
00:03:52
Speaker
Every single one of us is so individual and we bring both the good and the bad of that to work. So managing that is crazy. So yeah, anybody in HR, I'm like, I take off my hat to you. So I feel like the death tune is probably like a vacation for you, no? It's honestly Yeah.
00:04:09
Speaker
yeah easier on a variety of levels, on a variety of levels. Now, do I miss it? Sure. Sometimes I really loved the people, um which you have to when you're in HR.
00:04:22
Speaker
i did a lot with leadership training and succession planning. And so there are aspects of it that I miss, but this work definitely fills my heart just a little bit more. Okay. And so tell us a little bit about more. At the very beginning, you were very clear you're non-medical.
00:04:40
Speaker
So explain to me and to my listeners like what exactly that means for you.
What is a Death Doula?
00:04:45
Speaker
Sure. So it's probably easier to maybe talk about the differences between differences and similarities between birthing doula because it seems nowadays ah the United States has finally caught up to other countries and a majority of people now know what a birthing doula is, whereas on the opposite end of the spectrum, not a lot of people have heard what a birth doula is and and what we do. um And so when a family hires a birth doula, it's typically earlier on in the pregnancy, mom and doula sit down and work a plan or write out a plan of how we think things are going to go. Death doula, same thing. Ideally, we would be brought in at the time of a terminal diagnosis. But there are people that I'm finding that as they're writing their death plan, they want to make sure that they have that extra level of support and will reach out to a death doula. Birth doula, from a comfort perspective, they put you on an exercise ball. They might massage your feet or apply pressure to your back.
00:05:53
Speaker
Death doula, same thing. I'm certainly not going to put someone on a birthing ball, but if they need read... Won't try that. um Maybe some repositioning, maybe providing pillows in a different spot. Brushing hair. you It's something so small that you don't think about that provides that comfort. You know, a birthing doula comes in in and is telling mom, you've got this. One more push. Just one more push. You can do it. Now, I'm not going to come in and be a cheerleader at end of life, but sometimes it's just those calming words of we have you.
00:06:30
Speaker
You're loved and supported. It's okay. So very non-medical. Again, I don't even touch a Tylenol bottle. Now, if there is a client who has not gone on hospice yet, physically I can see that there's some discomfort I do strongly suggest sometimes, hey, it it might be time to call hospice. dad might need Dad might need some assistance with pain to make him a little bit more comfortable.
00:07:01
Speaker
Mm-hmm. So explain to me because I so i've I actually was very upset. I didn't get to go to the um what was a doula palooza last year. I don't know if you were at that.
00:07:15
Speaker
I was supposed to be Alice. I was very upset. And so I had a fabulous Gabrielle, a friend of mine, go to be in my place. I was very upset I didn't get to go because we've had death doulas on this podcast before.
00:07:28
Speaker
And i I have a love-hate relationship with death doulas, right? and As in, i i understand their plight and I understand their role. But when I when i say love-hate, it's more love...
00:07:43
Speaker
trying to understand rather than love hate, right? There's no hate. There's no even dislike. It's more, it's more, I think it's actually from my like business marketing background, honestly, that I have just an ick, an ick. That's the best way to describe it because I can understand where funeral directors get upset with death doulas, right? And so I actually then, am well, I didn't get to go to Doula Palooza. I was at Terracon recently and I, there was a whole death doula panel and I got to sort of have a great conversation with some of the death doulas.
00:08:13
Speaker
And so how do you market yourself and where do you feel like you fit in in the grand scheme of funereal
Legacy Work and Technology in End-of-Life Care
00:08:23
Speaker
professions? I guess let's let's go with that.
00:08:25
Speaker
I think that many doulas focus on what their passion is, and that's kind of where they have their specialty or how they market themselves. So for me, I have an immense passion for legacy work. So you you get a terminal diagnosis. Your loved one gets a terminal diagnosis. It is mass chaos, rightfully so. And there's things that families aren't thinking about in the moment as far as What do I want my dad's legacy to be? What stories would my mom ah want to be able to pass down to future generations? So for me, I have a super strong passion for the legacy work, whether that's documenting stories. There's some apps that I use that I think are just fantastic in working with families to kind of
00:09:19
Speaker
document legacies. And I've also purchased a bunch of camera equipment, lights and microphones to do legacy reels or legacy interviews. um So for example, I so just sat down with my in-laws about a month or so ago, and I've known them for 20 something years and knew bits and pieces of their origin story. And so I wanted to sit down and learn the whole story of dating and how did they know they wanted to get married? When did they decide they wanted to start a family? And that way, that's that's something that I'll be able to pass down to my kids and and they'll have it to pass down to to their children. So as far as where we fit, sometimes I really just think it depends on what that doula brings to the table. Yeah, because therein, I think therein lies both the beauty and the potential and the opportunity, but also the confusion.
00:10:24
Speaker
I think and I genuinely think this for both the funeral professions that are currently in the business and also for families looking for services. Right.
00:10:35
Speaker
We'll get to that. Because for me, my understanding of a birthing doula is crystal clear. that, you know, I bring them in at a certain point. They take me through the process. I end up with a beautiful, healthy baby boy and sort of that's it. And I haven't had any kids, but it's clear in my head, right?
Clarifying the Role of Death Doulas
00:10:52
Speaker
Whereas a death doula,
00:10:54
Speaker
I think because there's so many different varieties, it's and as you said, you know, death doulas, because they choose to focus on what their passion is, that can lead into people being very confused. Like for me, for example, for me and my own business, we are celebrants and we are memorial planners. We are not funeral directors. We are not death doulas.
00:11:17
Speaker
um and So I've worked with a myriad of funeral directors and death doulas who all think that they are celebrants and think they are memorial planners and think that they are, due you know, ah in each category, both. It's not to say that they're not or they are not qualified to be. And and qualification is a whole other topic, which we will not get to today, unfortunately. and But hopefully sometime soon, because, you you know, i I... I don't I debate hard with some of my fellow funeral professionals on this. And that's, again, the wonderful thing about human nature is we're all different. We all have these opinions and these thoughts. And so absolutely. yeah And so I love to just talk about this because I did actually ask a death doula at Terracon. And I said, you know, what exactly is a death doula?
00:12:03
Speaker
And she did answer honestly. And she said, you know what? She said, I can't fully answer that because it is such a myriad of things. So I think I think therein lies the issue. And I don't know how we solve it.
00:12:19
Speaker
Do we solve it? Maybe we don't. I don't know. and I just know the funeral directors, like when I first started in the business and I'm in a nearly 20 years, which is actually bonkers and I'm aging myself. But when I first started, funeral directors were like, whoa, whoa, she's coming for our business. She's coming for our child. And I'm like, no, no, no, I am not.
00:12:38
Speaker
And we've slowly but surely established that we're good, mostly because I'm very crystal clear that I stick to my lane and I, you know, they don't, they stick to theirs and that's it. Okay, a question.
00:12:51
Speaker
How do you feel about a death doula who has never been with or touched a dying slash dead body? If you've never been with a dying or deceased person, how can you call yourself a death doula? Like, are you an apprentice?
00:13:08
Speaker
Right. You're an apprentice death doula. Fine. You haven't maybe had the experience. But in my and this is again, this is my opinion, because there is no law dictating any of this. And I know there's courses and I'm I have best friends who are death doulas. So, you know, we've had these feisty conversations and I love it. um It's what life is about. It's just to me, it's a very and because because I've had death doulas recommend me as a celebrant or as a memorial planner to come in and and do that part of it. And they they've they've actually said to me, they've like, this is my first one. I don't i don't really know what I'm doing.
00:13:40
Speaker
And I've had to end up sort of walking them through what what I do. of the you know goodness. yeah Yeah. And I've had to walk them through sort of what at least what I bring to the table. Again, because I'm not going to tell you what a funeral director, you know, I can tell you. But like, it's to me, it's up to each. I do believe there's a seat for all of us at the table, by the way. This isn't about that and at all. I'm very, you know, there's a seat for everybody at the table and we all have goods to bring. It's just, I think, one of the issues with death doula ship, whatever we want to call it, is finding its its place.
00:14:17
Speaker
And may be maybe it needs to be split up. I have three children and there's the old adage of it takes a village to raise a child. And honestly, now having walked this path, um I could, I feel that the same could be said for taking care of a dying loved one. it it takes a village. it's it's There's so much to navigate. um And for individuals who want to die at home on hospice, sometimes, you know, depending on where you live and depending on resources, hospice only comes in once or twice a week. And so then, you know, 95% of end-of-life caregiving falls to loved ones. And so, you know To your point, we have a place, and i I do think it's that extra set of hands to have a seat at the table for that, maybe around respite care, right? Hey, Sally, you've been sitting bedside vigil with your mom for hours and hours. Why don't you why don't you go just grab a cup of coffee?
00:15:23
Speaker
yeah Go jump in the shower, where I think you know a death doula can provide that Yeah. Yeah. And I do agree with you on that. Like, so to me, if you were to ask me what I think a death doula is, it's exactly as I perceived a birthing doula to be. It is somebody who sits with the deceased and the dying and their families and helps and holds the hand and encourages. And, you know, you kind of touched on earlier and is the cheerleader. You know, there there is actually it's a show. I haven't watched it. like she has a great conversation with the woman and the woman, you know, she's bringing a comedic value. And, you know, I just, I think that's exactly what a death doula is. And that's, I feel like if, if death doulas focused on that part of it, I genuinely think this, this would be a more beautiful marriage of professions. I think the issue is when, again, for me, my opinion, I think the issue is when death doulas claim to be lawyers or, you know, and help people with legal work and paperwork and and maybe even videography, honestly, and then the celebrant side of it. And then sometimes they're planning the funeral and then sometimes they're helping with the catering. You know, they're just in everything.
00:16:39
Speaker
And I do have said like a bitch coming out this book. and I do have a potential sort of, I think, why this happens. But just before to finish kind of this point is I do, I just think it would be a more beautiful um marriage of all these professions if we all just stuck to our lane to a certain degree. Right. And like you might turn to me ah as people have online when I say this, because I've I've been known to say, you know, you're not the Cheesecake Factory. You can't do everything great anyway. So I just I do. I think that would be a better thing. And I i have the same ethos, the same thought about water cremation. I think water cremation, and there's so many different types of it out there. Higher temperatures, lower time, lower temperatures, longer time, things like that. that
00:17:27
Speaker
Here's the thing. You and I know what we're talking about. The consumer, the average consumer hasn't a clue. And as we both know, they're making decisions fairly quickly if it's at need. Right. So, you know, my my whole thing is like when I if I need a death doula, like how am I
Gaining Experience in Hospice Settings
00:17:43
Speaker
finding you guys? Like and what am I looking up? If I put in death doula, Nicole, I'm finding all sorts of people who are are going to who may have never even been with the deceased body. I, again, just my opinion. um But if you're a death doula or want to be death doula out there, my suggestion to you is spend some time in hospice. I have even spent time in hospice and I don't deal anything with the body. I don't deal with the deceased person really at all. Spend some time in hospice. Spend some time around the dying. It it will change your life irrevocably, no matter what, you whether you decide never to kind of go forward with this. Am I right? Like it's,
00:18:21
Speaker
Oh, yeah. So rewarding. Actually, tell us a little bit just before I get to the point about the why. Tell us your first experience with um a non-family deceased person or dying person.
00:18:34
Speaker
Honestly, my first job at 15, I worked at a nursing home and I did the laundry. And so I would walk there every day in the summer, go down to the basement, do the laundry, fold the laundry, bring it upstairs to the main living quarters. And I'd be walking down the hall with all of my carts and and laundry baskets. And as I'm walking past certain rooms, the the first few times it kind of, I was naive. Let's just put it that way. um I would walk past a room and look in and there is a sheet pulled totally up over someone's head.
00:19:14
Speaker
And again, i was 15, zero exposure to death at that point. Oh, Sally must be sleeping in this morning. My hair was much blonder back then, so I'll play the dumb blonde card. um And it took me a few times before I realized oh, they're no longer with us. And you would think at that age, it would terrify me that I'm in such close proximity. And it it didn't. And then fast forward a few years after that that, we were with my paternal grandmother shortly after died. And
00:19:53
Speaker
she died We were in there for last rites when she was still breathing. And moments later, there was some in and out and and she did pass. A year after that, ah my paternal grandfather was in a hospice house and um died. And i immediately rushed to be there and just sat in the room with him. And he was already gone. And again, I was very young, Jennifer. I was...
00:20:24
Speaker
And it was very peaceful. Very peaceful because, you know, I still sat there and talked to him like he was here because it just felt like the right thing to do. And and so I think from a very early age, I was just sort of exposed and drawn trying to that. Yeah, it's I mean, it's definitely a calling. And that's that's what I do think anybody in this business, I think, well, to a certain degree, unless you've grown up in it and, you know, whether it's a funeral home or business being handed down to you, a lot of times you don't get a choice, which is, you know, not
Financial Challenges for Death Doulas
00:21:02
Speaker
great either. But I think for those of us that choose to come into this, I think it's definitely a calling. am I, at 15, I worked in a bar, as ah as an Irish person does, called the morgue. seeing dead bodies there to God, but it was called Lord.
00:21:17
Speaker
actually met there recently with my family for dinner, but it's always funny to go back. Yeah, I just, I do think that that's the tragedy for me is it is such a calling and I i want to keep all these wonderful depth doulas that are out there that have hearts of gold and that are doing this. And, you know, so when I'm coming at it so fiercely, it's not from a, play it's more from place of how can we find a seat at the table for everybody? How do we make this space? You know, and what does this look like? Because at the end of the day, whether we like it or not, this the landscape of funeral service is changing.
00:21:50
Speaker
um It's slightly changing, but it's changing. And so how do we make space for everybody and how do we how do we make this work? And, you know, back to sort of trying to not sound like a complete bitch. I personally think the reason why.
00:22:03
Speaker
ah death doulas go into such a myriad of different areas around the actual sitting with the deceased and the dying and the family is because of a finances.
00:22:16
Speaker
Honestly, I think it's because of finances. At the end of the day, every single one of us need some form of compensation to live in this country. This is not a cheap country to live in. Doesn't matter who you are.
00:22:29
Speaker
um Some of us are blessed with people. I say also, I don't know why I'm saying also, but some of us are blessed by maybe having a partner that can take care of things or a family that have left them, you know, so some people can kind of come into this in a very voluntary role. Great. For the majority of us, that's just not feasible. Right. So now you've got this this position that is your passion and you're really good at.
00:22:52
Speaker
But it's it's getting paid for it. And the one struggle I seem to encounter whenever I talk to death doulas is how do they charge for their work? It's such heart centered work. I mean, what I do is very heart centered work, but I have learned um and I've changed and evolved over the last two decades in how I charge.
00:23:11
Speaker
And I think that's probably why. What are your thoughts on that? I think the rise in and doulas is not so much that people are have been doing this forever and now are just getting paid.
Filling Gaps in Healthcare
00:23:23
Speaker
I think there is a huge shift in our healthcare expectations and what healthcare is able to do for our loved ones that are approaching end of life. Let's be honest, we have this silver wave, as they call it now, where The boomers are are aging fast and experiencing significant declines in their health. And I just don't know if the healthcare system is able to fully support them in the way that they need
00:23:55
Speaker
care at end of life. And so I think you're seeing a lot of people like myself who had significant loss and we were those end of life caregivers, seeing this this gap between the hospital system, hospice, healthcare, or what have you. and after witnessing that, at least for me, I felt this pull of, i i want to give families better than what I had. And, and that's not saying that hospice for either of my loved ones missed the mark because they didn't. But, you know, when I talk about the fact that I'm super passionate about legacy work from the HR perspective, I'm also very passionate about those difficult conversations. And so I had two different perspectives. very polarizing experiences with my mom and my aunt. My mom and i did not have the white picket fence growing up. And there was a lot of things that probably needed to be aired out and and resolved. And so for her, the dyeing process looked very different. It was...
00:25:02
Speaker
full of agitation and and crying out for her mom and versus my aunt my paternal aunt where it was as peaceful as as death can be um but there were no unsaid conversations you know we We had taken care of that all throughout our our lives together, but my mom and I never got to reconcile that. And so I also kind of see that is a bonus for what I do is if there's things that haven't been cleared up and you just don't know where to begin, that's another space that I like to come in and and try to bring those family members peace as much as humanly possible. Yeah.
00:25:48
Speaker
That sometimes they think a regular nurse just isn't equipped to do nor has the time, right? They might have 14 other patients and can't have that moment to just sit and help the family navigate through, again, some of those challenging conversations.
00:26:04
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I think I think that's a perfect place to end it. Thank you so much, Nicole, for for coming on. And we are a big fan of death doulas. We just need to find the seat if that's that's, again, my opinion at the table.
Future Roles of Death Doulas in Funeral Services
00:26:20
Speaker
But I just think absolutely death doulas are part of the future of funeral professionals. And um and yeah, and thank you so much for joining us on the show. This is amazing.
00:26:29
Speaker
Oh, gosh, thank you. and And don't worry, I did not think you were being bitchy at all. I mean, listen, there's enough people dying right now to go around. and to your point, we all have ah a space and we all fill fill a gap and fill a need. And so it's really just being able to provide care, dignity and showing up when when we need to.
00:26:53
Speaker
Exactly right. Exactly right. Well, thank you so much for joining us, Nicole. We look forward to watching this space with you.