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The Kennedy Curse 15, Part 15 - Allen Dulles is Pure Evil? A "Homosexual Thrill Killing?" You Be the Judge
41 Plays5 days ago
We talk about some specific conspiracy theories about the assassination of JFK, including a bank robbery, earlier plans, multiple gunmen, a decoy hearse, CIA involvement, and the theory that is the basis of the Oliver Stone film JFK.
Check out our YouTube channel, Fixate Today: Grey Matters
Sources (there's a lot):
Books: The Kennedy Curse by Edward Klein, Rosemary: The Hidden Kennedy Daughter by Katie Clifford Larson, The First Kennedys: The Humber Roots of an American Dynasty by Neal Thompson, After Camelot: A Personal History of the Kennedy Family 1968 to the Present by J. Randy Taraborrelli, Ask Not: The Kennedys and the Women They Destroyed by Maureen Callahan, The Kennedy Imprisonment: A Meditation on Power by Garry Wills, Black Water by Joyce Carol Oates, RFK Jr.: The Rise and Fall by Vincent Isabel, Marina and Lee by Priscilla Johnson McMillan
Media: Grey Gardens (1975 documentary), JFK (1991 film), Thirteen Days (2000 film), Murder in Greenwich (2002 television film), Bobby (2006 film), Grey Gardens (2006 musical), Grey Gardens (2009 film), Parkland (2013 film), 11.23.63 (2016 series), Jackie (2016 film), Chappaquiddick (2017 film), Cover-Up (2018 podcast), The RFK Tapes (2018 podcast), The Last Podcast on the Left, Episodes 400-405: JFK (2020 podcast), The Last Podcast on the Left, Episode Relaxed Fit: Marilyn Monroe & The President’s Aspirin (2020 podcast), The Last Podcast on the Left, Episode Side Stories: The Bullet in the Backseat (2023 podcast), Wine & Crime, Episode 366: Lobotomy Crimes (2024 podcast), The Last Podcast on the Left, Episode 1046: The Miseducation of Ed Larsen - JFK & Government Conspiracies (2025 podcast), United States of Kennedy (2025 podcast), Dead Certain: The Martha Moxley Murder (2025 podcast), Wine & Crime, Episode 456: Family Curses (2026 podcast), Love Story (2026 series)
Websites: historyhit.com, Scientific America, CNN, PBS, CBS News, BBC, Autistic Self Advocacy Center, InStyle, Best Buddies International, All Things Interesting, USA Today, Today in Civil Liberties, Cambridge Dictionary, Kennedys and King, RJP Books, New York Post, Boston Magazine, Time, The Moth, Vanity Fair, Voices Center for Resilience, Reddit, Washington Association of Black Journalists, NPR, The Ringer, The Daily Express, The Harvard Crimson, Fort Worth Star-Telegram, Washington Post, National Library of Medicine: National Center for Biotechnology Information, Wikipedia
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Focus
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome to Fixate Today Gone Tomorrow. I'm Nikki and I have ADHD. Joy is autistic and we are letting our hyper fixations fly. Today we are fixating on the Kennedy curse.
Recap of JFK Assassination Theories
00:00:24
Speaker
Hello, welcome back. More conspiracy today. Yes, I'm very excited. um so last episode, we kind of talked about all of the things that lend themselves to creating all of these conspiracy theories.
00:00:42
Speaker
the whole of the Warren Commission, evidence, witnesses, just weird things that have been out in the world about it, about JFK's assassination. Today, what we're going to do is kind of like use those things that make things weird and talk about how they became conspiracy theories and what those conspiracy theories are.
00:01:05
Speaker
The next time going to go a little deeper and like what it all could mean and the implications of how it impacted our world. Yeah. and that actually brings us back to kind of our original purpose. Yes.
Recording Environment and Surprise Moment
00:01:20
Speaker
um Which is actually the Kennedy curse. um So it's like, and it does tie back in. So as always find our bajillion sources in the show notes. And I will mention again,
00:01:34
Speaker
It is too hot where I live to not have the air conditioning running, and I am behind a blanket fort, but you're going to hear some ambient noise, and I can't torture my family by turning off the air conditioner. And I am not in my normal recording place, and and to the like final World Cup game is going on, and if you hear spontaneous screaming in the backyard or background, that could be it.
00:02:00
Speaker
Yeah. But first I have a surprise. I know you guys cannot see us, but I have a surprise for Nikki. Ready? Oh my gosh. i You're a babushka lady.
00:02:15
Speaker
That's really pretty actually. yeah It's actually one of my prettiest scarves that I like and I've never known how to wear. So. Now you know. Maybe that's how to wear it. hu Maybe not over the headphones.
00:02:27
Speaker
I think over the headphones. If you're going to make a statement. Yeah. Make a statement. Yeah. We need to make it 2026 and everybody walks around with headphones. Yeah.
00:02:40
Speaker
All right. Sorry. Back to being serious. Well, now that the babushka lady is with us, we can talk about the conspiracy theories. Yeah. Well, let's get into
Richard Case Nagel and CIA Allegations
00:02:50
Speaker
it. So basically what I did was i went on the internet and I looked for any possible conspiracy related to the assassination. So I'm kind of doing like a broad overview of them. I didn't go crazy digging deep into anything in particular. i just wanted to talk about all of them pretty much that I could find
00:03:15
Speaker
And just because I'm talking about them doesn't mean, of course, we believe those are the the true things. We're just talking through them. And to be fair, like, we are going to talk a little bit about what we believe in the end. Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure.
00:03:31
Speaker
But yeah, I mean, I'm sure we'll even talk about it as we're going through this. Yeah. But some of them, are like, I basically say that to be like some of, like, the really outlandish stuff that doesn't have any real like evidence just because we're talking about it doesn't mean that we think that's the thing.
00:03:49
Speaker
And it is fun. And it's fun to think about how that got out into the, i don't know, world world. Yeah. I guess. And why and how people's brains think yeah that have gotten that made them draw these conclusions.
00:04:04
Speaker
Yeah. And i mean, getting all crazy. If some of them are sort of planted to distract us. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I want to listen. i want to listen to what you have to say about these. All right. Let's do it.
Multiple Gunmen Theory
00:04:19
Speaker
All right.
00:04:20
Speaker
Well, first let's talk about the bank robbery theory. Oh, I'm going to full out say when Nikki mentioned this bank robber theory, I had not, like I had not, and I've researched this stuff a lot. I had never even heard of this one.
00:04:33
Speaker
Yeah. well This is one that I think is like, as okay. and okay A big, yeah a big contender. On September 20th, 1963 in El Paso, Texas, Richard Case Nagel walked into a bank, fired two shots into a wall and demanded to be arrested.
00:04:55
Speaker
When asked why, he said he'd rather be arrested and sent to prison than commit murder and treason. Okay, so this is like two months beforehand, right? Yep. Before anything happened. Okay. Yeah.
00:05:07
Speaker
yeah So he told Jim Garrison that he was a CIA double agent working with the KGB, and he got wind of the plot to kill Jack. Hold on, real quick. Let's go back and remind everyone who Jim Garrison is, because this gets complicated. So he's the district attorney...
00:05:30
Speaker
from New Orleans. He ended up getting quite involved in a an investigation yeah after the Warren Commission. um He is the one, like his kind of his theories and ideas are the ones portrayed in the movie JFK. He ultimately is the only person who brought anyone to trial.
00:05:50
Speaker
His name was Clay Shaw for participation in any kind of conspiracy, which ultimately he he was acquitted for. But yeah. And we, he that's actually in the list, so we'll get into it a little bit more, but perfect overview of who he is. um Yeah, so if you watch the movie JFK, it is Kevin Costner, I believe.
00:06:10
Speaker
He seems to be one of the the the most prevalent person who did ah his first independent but thorough investigation and worked for the government as a you know as a district attorney, which is pretty high level.
00:06:25
Speaker
yeah Yeah. It was quite kind controversial at the time. So this potential bank robber claimed to have even sent a certified letter to J. Edgar Hoover warning him of this plot.
00:06:36
Speaker
Richard died of a heart attack just before testifying at the 1995 hearing. i wonder if he i wonder if he testified earlier in some of the other hearings. Yeah, I don't know.
00:06:47
Speaker
I've never seen anything that said he had. It was just the nineteen one in the 90s. Yeah. He had left a purple trunk in his home that he only told his niece about. But when she went to retrieve it his home had been ransacked and it was gone.
00:07:04
Speaker
And he allegedly had said something like there was important information or something important in that purple trunk. Very interesting that it was a purple trunk. Just pretty random.
00:07:15
Speaker
Yeah, right? I thought the same thing. All right. So let's talk about the theory that there were two earlier attempts on Jack's life just before the assassination.
00:07:28
Speaker
So on November 2nd, Jack was supposed to attend an event in Chicago. The FBI learned that four snipers were going to go after him from the airport to the stadium.
00:07:40
Speaker
So November, obviously he died in November. So it was very close to that, that this alleged, ah plan was in the works. And this is a pretty well accepted theory that really did happen and and was true from what I found, that there was evidence of these plots, these FBI plots. it I do think it's fair to say, i think in the course of history, the FBI has intercepted a number of plots on a number of presidents. And So it's also the thing of like. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And so the second plot was white supremacists in Tampa, Florida were recording talking about a plot to kill Jack.
00:08:24
Speaker
Which, again, Jack was pro-integration, and so, like, white supremacists wouldn't like him. And I imagine it's not necessarily, like, a real plot. Maybe it's just, like, big talk in front of your other white supremacist buddies.
00:08:40
Speaker
And as you said, FBI is intercepting. Yeah, absolutely. Quote plots all the time. Yeah. Yeah. That we never know about. Right. All right. So this is where I think you get more interested. The multiple gunman theories.
00:08:53
Speaker
First, we talked a little bit about this last time, but there is some discrepancies on the number of shots. Three spent casings were reported.
00:09:04
Speaker
Up in the so-called sniper's nest. Yeah. In the book depository with the maid of the boxes. Yes, correct. to me it seems like kind of an obvious, almost too obviously planted of a clue, but whatever. Yep.
00:09:19
Speaker
What do we know, right? no What do we know? In 1979, the House Select Committee on Assassinations determined that there were four shots One came from the grassy knoll.
00:09:33
Speaker
Three hit Jack and one hit Connelly. So, and the reason, so this is like over 10 years later, and this is another you know government appointed commission, maybe that's supposed to be less biased.
00:09:49
Speaker
But ah the reason that they had to come to the conclusion of the four shots is because of new audio material. I mentioned this last time, but one police officer's radio or whatever was stuck in the open position and they were actually able to hear the fourth shot. I think it actually came toward the end of their investigation and it made an major difference. and And I think there was even within the commission, there was disagreement on how that information impacted what should be released to the public. But that's where the idea of the fourth shot came in. So yeah, it was that 1979 committee that they kind of ruled that that was the case, that there were four shots.
00:10:39
Speaker
There is much debate about the origin of the shots. The Warren Commission said that all of the shots came from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
00:10:51
Speaker
It was reported
Autopsy Evidence and 'Three Tramps' Theory
00:10:52
Speaker
in 1979 that two dozen people believed that the shots came from different points in the area. But there is a couple different points. So the Book Depository, of course, the Grassy Knoll, and the Dallas County Records Buildings. which that's the one across the street, I believe, from the book depository?
00:11:10
Speaker
Kind of across street in Caddy Corner, I believe. Okay. There is also talk about the Daltex building, which i'm not good what is which is across the street to the left.
00:11:23
Speaker
And I think whereas the Dallas County Records building is across the street to the left and of And more catty corner. Both or all have been spoken about in the past.
00:11:35
Speaker
Okay. There's never been any definitive proof though, obviously, of any of the others other than everything we know about the bullet analysis and that. Right.
00:11:49
Speaker
So there is also – In relation to the number of shots and the origin and things like that, there's different with witness testimony. Witnesses reported that the grassy knoll was the area with the most gunshot sounds.
00:12:02
Speaker
What this would mean was that there were at least but there were two shooters, one from the grassy knoll and one from the book depository. And I just wonder, because there's obviously would be echoing.
00:12:13
Speaker
It's kind of a lower area ah surrounded by buildings. Yeah. And i I just wonder, i mean, I guess I've never been in an area where there's multiple gunshots, but how difficult it is to distinguish which direction they would come from with the echoes and such. Yeah. Well, and I'm even going back to the ruling that there were four shots, remembering that one bullet ricocheted off the ground.
00:12:39
Speaker
Right. and And so it's like, yeah. So what's what, especially on a recording, what people say they heard, it's so hard to distinguish what's what I feel like. Right. And I believe that one that did ricochet off the ground, you're right. So it would have hit in multiple places, obviously, ricocheted and then hit something else. um Because didn't it hit enough to like a chunk of concrete ah chuck came up? So that could have sounded chunk like – chunk concrete which then – Hit someone.
00:13:07
Speaker
ah Yeah, hit somebody like in the face and caused them bleed to bleed. That particular one I think had to have pretty much come from the direction of the book depository because of where it was located. I think that is the one that like most definitely had to come yeah from there. I believe believe it's the first one and it missed by the furthest distance.
00:13:35
Speaker
But I'm wondering if on a recording, if on our police recording, that would have sounded like a second shot. And so then like the third shot became, the ultimately would have sounded like four gunshots because if it's like hitting the ground, does that sound like another? Yeah. like made So that's, yeah and yeah it's chaos. So who knows what you're hearing?
00:13:55
Speaker
Yeah, but again, this is one of those things that it's like in this day and age, it's so hard to believe. Like, just seems like this is something that should be easily to determined. yeah But I mean, that's because of our technology and such. but Right, right.
00:14:09
Speaker
So you brought this gentleman up in the last episode. Lee Bowers, who operated a railroad tower that over overlooked the parking lot by the grassy knoll, reported seeing two men behind the stockyard fence at the grassy knoll before the shooting.
00:14:26
Speaker
And he said that after the shooting, one of the men remained there. He said he saw a flash of light or a plume of smoke from the knoll. And this is one where when I actually was at went over there and visited the location, just totally made made sense. it Like where he was and what ah what a good view he would have had of the grassy knoll. How close it was. it was elevated.
00:14:56
Speaker
he could have seen it anything. Now, this is one where also mentioned that Another witness, the I can't remember his name, but he was um the a gentleman who is deaf and but with really good eyesight, viewed that this the grassy knoll on the other side of the fence from the same position that Lee Bowers would have been on. and their accounts were slightly different, which could like be taken as something that discredits them.
00:15:27
Speaker
Could mean... It's corroboration that something was going on but behind there or could mean two different things. Two different shooters were back there in different areas that they could.
00:15:38
Speaker
Well, let's talk about the physical evidence related to the number of shots and all of that. Evidence of a bullet fragment that was not consistent with coming from the book depository, meaning one shooter may have been at that DalTax building across from the book depository.
00:15:58
Speaker
An FBI photograph showed the presidential limo had a bullet hole above the rearview mirror and a crack in the windshield. But the FBI reported that that had occurred before Dallas. Okay, that one's really hard for me to believe.
00:16:13
Speaker
No, part about it was there before. i just really hard to believe to have some FBI or some presidential limousine driving around with a ah cracked windshield.
00:16:25
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Especially yeah a bullet hole. Well, and I feel like there would have been documentation somehow to just prove that. Yeah. i mean it Just show the paper that, like, you write down the state of the car. I mean, I feel like there's probably even a picture out there of some sort. But yeah that's very hard for me to believe.
00:16:42
Speaker
Yeah, me too. In 1993, a manager at the Ford Motor Company's Rogue plant in Detroit said that when he went to work on November 25th, 1963, he found the car in the plant with its windshield removed. So the presidential motorcade vehicle. And it is known to have been, yeah, moved very quickly.
00:17:05
Speaker
He was told by a Ford VP to use the old windshield as a template to make and install a replacement and then to destroy the old one.
00:17:17
Speaker
Which again, if this had already been there in the past, why hadn't they just taken care of this in the past? Right. Yeah. Why is it suddenly so important, um you know, three days later after this assassination? if they have if If they've been driving around with this bullet hole-ish thing in the... But, you know, devil's advocate is, you know, we know that the Secret Service cleaned up the car really quickly. And we've talked a lot about this, of of every...
00:17:48
Speaker
group having an end goal or thinking like my protocol for my job is this, this, and this, and then make doing things that when you put it all together, look like a grand conspiracy. So like devil's advocate in this is like, yeah, they've already cleaned it out. Now let's get it fixed up before anybody sees it.
00:18:10
Speaker
Yeah, like cover our butt. Like we probably shouldn't have been, again, I'm keeping, so this is very sarcastic. We probably shouldn't have been driving around prior to
New Orleans Conspiracy Theory
00:18:20
Speaker
this with a bullet hole in our windshield and we never took, we procrastinated, never took up care of it before. so let's get it taken care of real quick. Yeah, yeah.
00:18:31
Speaker
All right. So film and videos that kind of add some questions about the number of shooters or origins, all those things. The position of Jack's head had a lot of questions around it.
00:18:45
Speaker
Depending on the position, a shot could have come from different directions and from different weapons. Okay. This one to me, and I know that that is still the word out there.
00:18:59
Speaker
This to me, like, seems incontrovertible. Like, it... To me, the film obviously shows the direction it's coming from. And this to me is, I don't even understand how it could be a question at this point, whether a shot came from, and if not the grassy knoll, at least in front of the vehicle.
00:19:27
Speaker
his head clearly whips backward. It clearly was hit from the front and skull and brain matter moved backwards. I don't even understand how this could even be questioned um at this point. that Like to me, that's a done deal right there on whether there was ah another shooter. Yeah.
00:19:53
Speaker
My opinion, my opinion. Right, right, right. So along with this is acoustical evidence. So
CIA and Military-Industrial Complex Motives
00:20:01
Speaker
this is like very broadly, each investigating commission came to different conclusions about any audio recordings of the event.
00:20:09
Speaker
um And it's basically not clear based on audio what could be heard, how many shots, as we just talked about with the concrete. Like, it's just not, it's it's not able to be determined by just audio. Yeah.
00:20:24
Speaker
But I'm still going to, I'm still on the side of it's kind of, is it kind of is. I think, uh, know, what's it called confirmation bias that if you convince yourself, like what you're hearing. So it'd be like, you know what? I heard 37 shots. And it's like, no, that was this, this, and this. the But once you've like focused in on that sound, that's all you can hear. I think there's definitely some of that too. All right. All right. ah I'll give it to you maybe. ha
00:20:56
Speaker
I'm not, go I'm not arguing to or against at this point. I'm just saying I've done those things online. well it's This was like so long ago, but it was like, there was an audio clip playing on the, and it was like going around the internet and it was like, do you hear Laurel or Yanni?
00:21:11
Speaker
yeah and so I think of that anytime of like any sort of like, listen to this audio recording and see what it says. Yeah, no, i agree. And also so funny that like there wasn't more audio recordings in that day and age. We'd have so many,
00:21:30
Speaker
We have to be now. Also, look, we have to keep in there's also such, there was also silencers back then. And I don't know, if I was like some high level assassin, I would think I'd invest in a silencer.
00:21:45
Speaker
Just me? Yeah. And to that end, we know that the CIA had all kinds of weaponry that it was developing and things like that. and Yeah. You know. Who knows? those are There's also the medical evidence. Descriptions of Jack's head from the Parkland Memorial Hospital nurses and doctors seem to differ from the autopsy. The hospital reported a major portion of the skull being blown out.
00:22:12
Speaker
It seems that that differed from other reports and photos. And the Warren Commission simply ruled that the Parkland staff had been mistaken. Which brings to mind... We have the video...
00:22:25
Speaker
this is morbid, but of Jackie climbing up on the back of the limousine, which has always been said that it was to grab the remnants of his skull, which I mean, it's just it's a strange scenario. I'm not sure what it, I mean, even that yeah seems somewhat odd as a natural, as an instinct, but I also don't know what other instinct would occur at that time. it's It's absolute shock. So it's like there's no... You can't make make sense of in instinct while you're doing that. So there's also conflicting autopsy testimony. Certain photos had not been submitted into evidence.
00:23:05
Speaker
It was documented that the brain weighed 1,500 grams. In August 1977, Paul O'Connor, a lab tech who assisted in the autopsy, said that there wasn't anything left in the skull, so they didn't open it. yeah i don't know. That seems strange. I know.
00:23:25
Speaker
Brings to the theory that Jack's brain was stolen to cover up evidence from where the gunshot came from, the one that hit his his head. I also at one point read a crazy theory that Officer Tippett's, if anyone remembers, he was the other gentleman that was, or the officer that was killed that same day. They like Used his brain.
00:23:49
Speaker
Oh, I mean. Yeah, I mean, again, I'm going to put that into the, ooh, that's a little tin-hattied. That's a little much. A little much. Something I had heard. So there have been 26 people that have been named as people who could have been a possible alternate gunman. I'd love to see that list. I know. Yeah, I would also love to. I thought I'd seen it, but I don't think. id I think that was something different.
00:24:16
Speaker
Well, I mean, i you know, again, because I've gone in and and I'll talk a little bit more ah about what I found, but there are a lot of theories about having sent multiple assassin groups, like assassins, I don't know, generally work in groups of three, um especially in this case because of the triangulation. And, you know, I'll get into it more. But yeah, that is one of the theories that there were several different assassin groups working independently.
00:24:47
Speaker
So in that case, that would make sense that were a lot there. I'm not sure how many assassins in this world there are. um Seems like, I mean, as a strange, it seems a very niche.
00:25:01
Speaker
Yeah. Position.
Episode Conclusion and Teaser
00:25:02
Speaker
Right. How do you interview for that job? Like, yeah like how do you end up there and how often are you needed? but yeah how do you distinguish? Like, is it like a professional one from a, you know, an amateur? Does it have HR? Yeah. Like, I don't know.
00:25:20
Speaker
but Anyways, if I can ever get my hands on that list, I'd be curious to see if I recognize any of the names just because I've read so much and especially about like different different mafia members.
00:25:33
Speaker
And also there are a lot of trained assassins for what we will go on to talk about um that were potentially set up to assassinated at one time Fidel Castro. So, I mean, they were traded more assassins. that That was like a better job market than like right now. Yeah. I think so.
00:25:53
Speaker
ah Well, I want to talk about one of my favorite theories that I saw of one of these men that could have been the actual gunman. One theory said that the only place that third shot could have come from was the sewer grate. Yeah.
00:26:06
Speaker
And the theory was a gentleman named Frank Sturgis, who would go on to be one of the five burglars in the Watergate scandal, popped up from the sewer and fired. Now, there could be something. Like, first of all, that seems crazy. Second of all, I've heard that debunked a lot, like why there's other areas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Third, I did look at that sewer area when I was there.
00:26:26
Speaker
Not that that meant anything, yeah but it's a sewer. I do think, though, that what we will find out is there are connections to the Watergate scandal. Oh, yeah. And who was there. And there's, i i find it very interesting. And his name does come up a lot. So. Yeah. Yeah. No, i actually do too. The whole part about the popping up from.
00:26:48
Speaker
That's what I think is very funny. But I think there is part of this that can be pulled out. And then again, you're like, I see that goes back to is information released that they make part of it seem so outlandish that then you. Dismiss it. You dismiss the whole thing. Yeah. No, I think that's like a normal occurrence in anything large like this.
00:27:09
Speaker
Well, because you were just talking about groups of three, that perfectly leads us into the three tramps. Okay, this is funny. I was trying to talk to my daughter about this, and I called them, like, I said the three tramps, and everyone's like, what? and like Or like, you know, like the three hobos, and they're like, what?
00:27:27
Speaker
Yes, I would have said that exact thing. don't know what else to call them. I mean, I know not politically correct. Well, that's what they were known as, these three gentlemen.
00:27:38
Speaker
ah Three men who were photographed under police escort near the book depository just after the assassination. The Dallas PD arrested three men in the rail yard behind the plaza, but they were quickly and quietly released.
00:27:54
Speaker
There are many possibilities as to who these three men could be. that i saw the names Chauncey Holt, Charles Rogers, and E. Howard Hunt. All of those men have some sort of CIA connection. Chauncey Holt actually has a really interesting interview. It's on the – it's out there on YouTube.
00:28:15
Speaker
Very interesting. The guy was an amazing – I don't know. Just a guy who had all these different talents. It was an – the interview was done – don't know. It had to have been 20 years ago because it's – just from the quality of it. And it's hilarious. And then it has like this very added like dramatic music that – I love that. jacking But anyways, if anyone's interested, it's a long interview, but I really found it. I really liked it. What he says in that interview is he was in the CIA. He essentially was sent. I've i've spoken about him. He was sent there to bring some weapons and He had some fake IDs, but didn't understand or know, didn't, didn't know what it exactly was for Didn't know the assassination was going to happen, was told, ah if anything crazy happened to go report back to this one rail car, that is like a meeting place. And that those other two guys met there also with them. The picture is pretty prominent. You see it out there a lot. If that was the case, it would make sense if they were like arrested or taken away that they would quietly be released.
00:29:30
Speaker
but who knows? Yeah, right. Well, another name that's floated around Gavis. He's known as the architect of the Bay of Pigs, Edward Lasdall. Also a man named Raul who planned, allegedly this man planned Martin Luther King Jr.'s murder for James Earl Ray to carry out.
00:29:51
Speaker
And the last one that I'm just going to mention that you kind of got into, I feel like, is Charles Harrelson, professional hitman and father of Woody Harrelson. Now, the reason I got into this is, and it is known that Woody Harrelson's, like, it wasn't known as Hassan. Yeah, this is a thing. That is a thing. The reason I found that, like, kind of, like, possibly credible, number one, if you look at pictures, it's crazy. you Like, you can tell. Or I don't know. They're they' crazy similar.
00:30:24
Speaker
I would assume we have some kind of technology, like, face recognition. technology now that could actually identify, but it's because when I watched that interview with Chauncey Holt, which I will say, like honestly had to be like 20, 30 years ago, he mentions Charles Harrelson specifically. And that's before like anyone would have known anything about like, not ah that like with no context of Woody Harrelson, uh, That's what stuck out to me. But again, if you look at the picture, it does definitely. Yes, yes, yes. Well, in 1989, after years of speculation, the Dallas PD officially identified the three tramps as Gus Abrams, Harold Dole, and John Gedney.
00:31:19
Speaker
I don't know who any of those men are, and I'm not sure why the Dallas PD decided that 1989 was the year to declare that solved. Okay. All right, let's move on from there. Let's talk about the theory of the decoy hearse and the wound alterations.
00:31:37
Speaker
Jack's body was in a shipping casket after being removed from a bronze casket on Air Force One and taken to the Walter Reed Army Medical Center to surgically alter his body to make it look like the shock came from behind.
00:31:53
Speaker
That's the theory. Okay, hold on. So I'm a little confused here. So we saw the casket entering Air Force One, and it was like a fancy casket or whatever, a normal casket. Yeah. And we had talked about how they had to remove the even some of the the handles to get it in there. So are they saying that like on route and route, they switched his body to a different casket, right? Like they had a spare in there. Yes. Okay.
00:32:20
Speaker
Yeah. Well, a hospital would have a shipping casket, I think, or a medical examiner's office. Cause like when you die, not at home, they have to, yeah like if you died on vacation, there's a specific type of casket. I think that can be shipped. But then when it was removed, when his body was removed, we have video of it coming out in what I'm going to call a fancy casket.
00:32:43
Speaker
Again? i don't know. the The body being removed from the casket? I'm sure. i Like, I shouldn't – maybe I said that wrong. When it arrives right in – at Walter Reed, like, there's video of the casket coming out of the plane. Yes, but we don't know what's in it because, like, that casket was still on Air Force One, whether it had someone in it or was empty. Oh, okay. And I'm just going to debate. other Again, I know I've mentioned this, but they're also out there. is the theory i don't know if it's theory or known that the original casket, there was too much blood in it.
00:33:24
Speaker
And maybe that was the medical casket. Yeah. And that the they like flew it out into the middle of the ocean, weighed it down with sandbags and dropped it in the ocean to to get rid of it.
00:33:39
Speaker
which seemed extreme, but i don't know. Well, the theory goes on to say that the body left Dallas wrapped in cloth and in that large brass coffin, but it arrived at Bethesda in a body bag and in a gray metal casket.
00:33:57
Speaker
And a decoy hearse was used and it was seen being removed. Like the metal casket was, no, the bronze fake casket was put into a decoy hearse.
00:34:09
Speaker
to show it being moved to the medical center. That's the theory. Goodness, great. that's ah That's a complicated one. Yes, and I don't, I mean, it would be to bring his body to the a different place than they said they would to yeah alter it.
00:34:26
Speaker
But that's the, yeah, that's that's a lot. Yeah, that yeah, yeah. That one's hard to follow, and that is a lot, but okay. Yeah. all right, so let's move on to the kind of the big one because this is the New Orleans...
00:34:39
Speaker
conspiracy theories that is the basis for the movie JFK. New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison began investigating the assassination in 1966. As I said, the 1991 Oliver Stone film JFK is based on this theory, and his theory includes a group of residents in his jurisdiction in New Orleans.
00:35:03
Speaker
Garrison theorized that there was a secret government within the U.S. government that was led by the world's most powerful men. Garrison took a lot of heat for this, for pursuing this. Yeah.
00:35:14
Speaker
A man named Clay Bertrand called a New Orleans attorney named Dean Andrews on November 25th, 1963, to see if he would represent Lee Harvey Oswald.
00:35:27
Speaker
Now, this is one of the most complicated parts of this conspiracy that is happening. Yeah. Very hard to follow, but also was a key piece of information.
00:35:38
Speaker
The man called and said his name was Clay Bertrand. Bertrand. His real name, he said, was Clay Shaw. Yeah. And a major piece of evidence came down to like this one affidavit or card or paper in which he had signed his name as Clay Bertrand and whether that should be admissible evidence into the case. So like throughout this whole big, huge case, like that one thing became a lot of what the decision outcome was. Yeah. It's also very confusing. I mean, in, in the movie, watch the movie. Yeah. But even in the movie, it's kind of confusing about oh yeah who he is. Yeah. So this attorney, Dean Andrews would go on to testify at the Warren commission.
00:36:31
Speaker
So, Yes, there are a lot of names, so follow what you can. But an anti-communist activist named David Ferry was, in this theory, involved somehow with Oswald. There is footage of them attending a Civil Air Patrol meeting in the 50s together. So they denied having, David Ferry denied having known Oswald.
00:36:54
Speaker
But there was this later photograph found. I mean, it was like years before, like, went I mean, years and years before. yeah David Ferry, who was he very interesting i mean a very interesting character.
00:37:09
Speaker
to say the least. Look him up if you want to hear about an interesting person. But he was known to have CIA affiliations, not necessarily to be to work as an agent for them, but to have affiliations with them.
00:37:26
Speaker
So Ferry worked for a private investigator named Guy Bannister. We talked about him way back in Lee Harvey Oswald episodes, but we'll get there. So Guy Bannister and David Ferry were working for an attorney named G. Ray Gill, who was defending New Orleans crime boss Carlos Marcelo to block him from being deported to Guatemala. This is so complicated. We can barely get it into that. yeah i was like I know. it Just take Nikki's word at that one. I know.
00:37:57
Speaker
So Marcelo incidentally had been acquitted on the same day as the assassination. Another employee of Bannister named Jack Martin was seen arguing with Bannister after the assassination.
00:38:10
Speaker
Martin was overheard saying, quote, what are you going to do? Kill me like you all did, Kennedy. So in the spring of 1963, Oswald wrote to a pro-Castro organization in New York City called Fair Play for Cuba Committee. We talked about this back in his episodes, but he asked if he could rent, quote, a small office at my own expense for the purpose of forming a FPCC branch here in New Orleans.
00:38:38
Speaker
So ah the implications are that that in history that Oswald was a communist sympathizer and hence wanted a free Cuba and was a sympathizer for Fidel cast Castro.
00:38:52
Speaker
So now one thing is, if you again, my Marina book, the guy had like no money. Apparently. I'm not sure how he's renting an office space. Right. honest Right. Okay. And he wasn't getting like dues or anything because he was the sole member of this chapter.
00:39:12
Speaker
But he had cards made up and flyers. Yeah. He had 1000 leaflets printed up to distribute that read quote, hands off Cuba. The office would be at the address five, four, four camp street, which was the Newman building.
00:39:30
Speaker
From October 1961 to February 1962, Cuban Revolutionary Council was held there. But it was also the same building that Guy Bannister Associates had its offices.
00:39:44
Speaker
Yeah, it's really interesting. It's like an at an intersection. So depending on which door you enter, you're actually entering from different addresses, but the same building, if that makes sense in New Orleans.
00:39:59
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. In September 1960, the CIA considered using Guy Bannister associates to collect foreign intelligence because it's in the same building. It's right next to the Cuban revolutionary fellas. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of Cuba stuff happening in New Orleans at the time and a lot of the exile training and blah, blah, blah.
00:40:20
Speaker
Yeah. Bannister had seen Oswald handing out leaflets. So on the leaflets, Oswald was using the address of the Newman building office.
00:40:30
Speaker
as like the When he mailed something out or handed it out, it said his his location of his office the for the Fair Play for Cuba committee, New Orleans chapter, was at the same address as the Cuban Revolutionary Council and the Guy Bannister associates.
00:40:47
Speaker
Guy Bannister believed he wasn't actually using that address, and this was just an attempt to embarrass Bannister by implying they worked in the same building. So Bannister was, like, offended that he was using this address. And there is some evidence that, like, well, so the next point.
00:41:06
Speaker
Delphine Roberts, Bannister's secretary, said that Oswald filled out an application to become one of Bannister's agents. This could not be corroborated, but he would have been turned down.
00:41:17
Speaker
So the theory is Guy Bannister is like, well, he's just trying to embarrass me by saying his like Cuba staff is near me. Really, it's like, no, there is like a group in that building that I think he's just trying to be a part of.
00:41:32
Speaker
Yeah, the whole thing was a little crazy. And other theories actually were there that Lee Harvey Oswald was working undercover and Guy Bannister was actually his handler.
00:41:46
Speaker
Yeah. In 1966, Garrison's investigation said that the assassination plot was developed by right-wing extremists, including Bannister and Ferry, who were involved with a CIA conspiracy to kill Jack.
00:42:03
Speaker
The motive was to stop Jack's attempts at peace settlements in Cuba and Vietnam. Clay Shaw, who was a prominent businessman, allegedly aided in this plan.
00:42:15
Speaker
He went by the pseudonym Clay Bertrand, and it was Clay Shaw who decided that Oswald would be set up as like the patsy, the fall guy.
00:42:27
Speaker
Garrison charged Shaw with conspiring to kill President Kennedy on March 1st, 1967. He was found not guilty. It is believed that Garrison only charged Shaw to get his findings on the official court record.
00:42:43
Speaker
Like, I think he knew there was no way this guy was going to be found guilty of this. But... it makes it officially on ah on a court record. Okay.
00:42:54
Speaker
Interesting. There's also like there was some kind of scuffle fight outside of the building. And again, that was said to like have been performative and planted to help create this persona of Lee Harvey Oswald as this pro-communist pro Cuba activist.
00:43:20
Speaker
Well, Garrison would go on to tell a reporter that he believed the murder, the assassination of a president, was a homosexual thrill killing. That Oswald Ferry, Shaw, and Jack Ruby were all homosexuals who were jealous of Jack.
00:43:38
Speaker
Okay, now there is a lot of this. I thought i i didn't realize we were go to get to it. But yeah, if you watch the movie, and historically, there was a the lot of these men were homosexuals.
00:43:52
Speaker
don't think that has anything to do with anything, but it's notable. And um and they did right they were flamboyant and open and participated in various parties of sorts that was fairly well known.
00:44:09
Speaker
I just think it's hilarious that Garrison got all of this stuff, CIA conspiracy, all these people connected Cuba. And he's like, but really, it's because they were all jealous that Jack was hot.
00:44:23
Speaker
but Yeah, they know that's hilarious that that was pulled out. yeah Definitely. And honestly, when I first started researching this and this whole like homosexuality thing came up with these major, I'm like mayor major players. I'm like, what the heck is going on here? wait know We took a turn in this story. It's just a sudden turn that you're like, I don't think this is important, but okay. But there was, I mean, there was some truth to that they were, but not true.
00:44:53
Speaker
necessarily that Not that that had anything to do with. yeah Exactly.
00:44:59
Speaker
Well, I think let's do maybe one more and then we'll do another episode of some more. Okay. All right. So let's move on from New Orleans, but maybe like link together. Let's talk about the CIA conspiracy.
00:45:15
Speaker
Evidence shows in the kind of on paper, the CIA had the most to gain from Jack Kennedy being dead. Jack inherited the Cold War from Eisenhower, who warned the American people to, quote, beware the military-industrial complex.
00:45:31
Speaker
Now, we have to remember, the CIA was, like, created in the 40s. So it wasn't that established. And even at that, it was – mean, obviously, it was always secretive and there was always a lot of controversy about um associated with it, but, and its role wasn't, was questionable. And from its inception, yeah there was always fear that it could be a problem.
00:45:57
Speaker
And it, yeah and I guess this, this case proves where, you know, what the fears were and how they came to pass.
00:46:08
Speaker
Yeah. And that Eisenhower was warning of it. So just as he said, the CIA had amassed tremendous power because of the Cold War. And because of this, they acted in their own interests instead of at the behest of the president. They kind of became rogue, like real early on. yeah Oswald had some sort of relationship with the CIA. And I will talk more about that, but he definitely did. And a lot of these play, a a lot of the people we have talked about
00:46:41
Speaker
also did have some kind of relationship with the CIA. Again, that didn't mean they were like agents and worked directly for the CIA, but a lot were informants.
00:46:53
Speaker
And that's because the CIA by nature has to partner up with some questionable characters, such as members of the mafia, because that's where they get their inside information.
00:47:10
Speaker
In 1995, evidence was published that the CIA and FBI tampered with the Oswald files before and after the assassination. This information of the tampering was withheld from other authorities.
00:47:27
Speaker
CIA Chief of Counterintelligence James Engleton was a key figure. he was working under Alan Dulles, who had been dismissed by Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs.
00:47:38
Speaker
the Bay of Pigs, which had been funded and coordinated by the CIA. Basically, this is a quick kind of overview of like the CIA's interactions in terms of the Bay of Pigs.
00:47:49
Speaker
The goal was to bait Jack into committing to full U.S. engagement with full air support. But Jack called their bluff and refused to commit troops. But also, this is what there were Cuban exiles who ah were trained to pull off this invasion. and felt very betrayed, many of whom were arrested and or killed. And created a lot of animosity toward Kennedy for his failures to protect them.
00:48:23
Speaker
Very questionable part of American history. oh yeah. So ultimately, Jack, after the Bay of Pigs, wanted to dismantle the central power of the CIA. Yeah. Dulles was fired and military operations were moved out of the CIA and shifted to the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the CIA budget was slashed.
00:48:44
Speaker
Just a reminding note that Dulles would become a member of the Warren Commission and was the former CIA driver. And again, i already said it earlier today, but was known to have had a continued relationship with pretty integral to the existing CIA, even after he was no longer officially the director. Yeah.
00:49:07
Speaker
The CIA has admitted to reaching out to mob bosses to assassinate Castro. Operation 4040, in which Cuban exiles who were not a part of the Bay of Pigs,
00:49:19
Speaker
who helped with anti-Castro operations, including assassination plots. This group was created and run by George H.W. Bush in conjunction with Texas oil magnate Jack Crickton.
00:49:34
Speaker
There were rumors that a hit was put out on Jack by right-wing officials from Operation 40. I'll get into this a little bit more it's pretty complicated, but I will get into it a little bit more to yeah explain it. There was a deathbed confession by one of the suspected three tramps that confirmed this theory.
00:49:55
Speaker
Alan Dulles had brought Jack plans for striking the soviet young the Soviet Union first without provocation. via taking over Cuba. So an important thing in this is Big Steel had a huge stake in all of this. So now we've got like mafia, CIA, big business now getting involved in all the things. Oh, very much. yeah and And this, remember, there's part of the warning, right, that Eisenhower had about like the military industrial complex. lot of oil, also oil companies. And we've also, there was connections to like Bell Helicopter and...
00:50:33
Speaker
lot of interweaving or feathering of the two. Yeah. Steel specifically was forced to lower prices during peace talks between Jack and Khrushchev. So like all of these, kind of like we keep talking about, all of these entities had goals and things that they wanted and money on the table. Lots of money. That were being impacted by Cold War not happening.
00:51:02
Speaker
Like World War III not happening. So it was almost as if there was a balance, right? some We needed to not have World War III because we had these crazy new things called nuclear bombs, right? But so many different groups and corporations and companies profit from war.
00:51:21
Speaker
And that, again, is something I think we now have a much greater understanding of. We're continuing to do so. And there's so much controversy around.
00:51:32
Speaker
but Well, and they don't care to hide it anymore. Yeah. Yeah. yeah but And I don't know if that gives me a ah little bit of peace inside knowing that it's always been happening and we've, I guess, made it okay this far. I don't know. I don't know. Or if it's – I'm not sure. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but – No, i think I think it is worse because they're just like, no one stopped us yet. We're not even going to pretend like we're not making money off of this. So there's a lot to that. And that, again, when I get into some of the deeper theories, has that that becomes a main focus.
00:52:11
Speaker
And actually, i'll say one more thing. So there there was this balance of, yes, us not starting World War III. World War III not starting, but also some of these groups wanted to continue to be able – I can already said that to make money from the balance of having some war continue. like They wanted low-level war going on, just not World War III. Right. Right. Right.
00:52:36
Speaker
So I think we're going to stop there. There are so many more. We're going to keep going next episode with different conspiracies. i I'm happy we hit those really big ones. Yeah. Like the CIA and – ah the New Orleans JFK movie one.
00:52:50
Speaker
ah Even though it's like, it's complicated and confusing. I think it's so interesting. Like the names that come up, i like one of the things that kind of blew my mind was when George HW Bush's name came up in relation to the Kennedy assassination. We'll actually get into a little bit more, but like in the CIA stuff, I was like, okay, George HW Bush is here. Yeah.
00:53:13
Speaker
No. And if you want to go there, in the stuff I've researched, it goes back to George Herbert Walker, his dad, and Prescott Bush. So it's even another generational layer.
00:53:31
Speaker
Yep. Yep. Which makes you start thinking cabal of political elites. yeah i I know. It's... so yeah all right. And then you think of that sweet little old man. I know. And sweet Barbara.
00:53:49
Speaker
They're all bad. Sitting by a side. They're all bad. I know. Every one of them. I don't know. I don't want to believe it. I know. know. i Well, let's wrap up there. ah Like i said, next time we'll get into some more. Some of them, ah like we'll talk Vietnam. We'll talk about the military. We'll talk about Johnson. But some are just like weird and silly.
00:54:10
Speaker
So those are kind of fun too. All right. Well, thank you everyone for joining us. We'll talk again soon. Goodbye.