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66 - Alpha Flight #24-29, Incredible Hulk #313 - Alpha Flight 5
117 Plays12 days ago
Join us on our journey back up North, folks, as we say good riddance to John Byrne, and good god what have we done to Bill Mantlo! Alpha Flight reaches some real high and real low points in this arc, and you'd better believe we're gonna tear it all apart! Plus, the Hulk shows up! Tune in!
TOPICS DISCUSSED:
John Byrne’s in the news. Pokopia. Secret War. The Hero’s Journey. Walter Langkowski the dipshit. “This is not your body!” A succulent Chinese meal. Carbonized air. Madison fuggin Jeffries. Penisless Walter. The West Edmonton Mall. Who’s That Pokemon? The Bozo Brigade. The damn Beyonder and more damn Secret Wars II crap. A bunch of Hulk stuff. John Dillinger. We have some thoughts on Bill Mantlo again. Books based on movies based on video games.
TIMESTAMPS:
10:49 - Pat’s Email Corner
32:45 - Alpha Flight #24: “Final Conflict”
47:15 - Alpha Flight #25: “...And Graves Give Up Their Dead…”
59:35 - Alpha Flight #26: “If At First You Don’t Succeed…”
1:10:36 - Alpha Flight #27: “Betrayal”
1:20:41 - Alpha Flight #28: “Cross-Over”
1:32:46 - Incredible Hulk #313: “Hook, Line, and Sinker!”
1:42:31 - Alpha Flight #29: “Cut Bait and Run!”
1:56:07 - Pat’s Deals ‘n’ Steals
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Transcript
Introduction & Overview
00:00:01
Speaker
I'm Trish Tobey with W.A.R.C. reporting to you live from Westchester, New York, where there appears to be some sort of mutant menace on the loose.
00:00:38
Speaker
Hey everybody, I'm Pat Reber. And I'm Matt Aukamp. And say it with us, Pete.
00:00:48
Speaker
Welcome to Mutant Menace. Oh, Matt. Pat, what are we talking about today? would Today, ah we're back on Alpha Flight.
00:01:01
Speaker
It's Alpha Flight time Yay! yeah ah When i tell you, man, when I first read Alpha Flight, I was like, this is good. This is that's not my experience rereading Alpha Flight.
00:01:16
Speaker
I thought this was all fine, but we can dig into that as we go. There's there is something we kind of wanted to touch on up top. Oh, boy.
John Byrne's Return & Controversy
00:01:25
Speaker
Because ah John Byrne, creator, writer, and artist of Alpha Flight, it was announced is going to be back on X-Men for the first time in 40 years, I believe. John Byrne's in the news.
00:01:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And John Byrne, have you seen the news? i so With that announcement came an old quote of his that ah folks rightfully still remember because it was heinous about trans people.
00:01:56
Speaker
um I don't think we've shied away from it. I think that
Bill Mantlo's Writing & Collaborations
00:02:00
Speaker
we up top acknowledged this. it i think we we put in the caveat that he did apologize for this later. And I don't know if that caveat was necessary. I think it's it's okay to just be super mad at him for saying this.
00:02:15
Speaker
Yeah, it sucks. It really, it's shitty. and And I don't know that he apologized. I think he just said a different thing. late Like he he came around on it. But yeah, he's we talked about this privately. And you said he's not the sort of guy who apologizes.
00:02:31
Speaker
but' see Yes. yeah Yeah. He wouldn't actually apologize. He has said much friendlier things about trans people since. But it doesn't excuse the shit that he said back in like 2009 or whatever. Whenever he got yeah into blogging and just started.
00:02:46
Speaker
putting his thoughts out there for everyone to reach never a good idea um no we of course with that in mind and always keeping that in mind as we read through this stuff we still got to engage with it right so uh we're going to read it with that consideration as we've been doing but also want to acknowledge it because we do tend to separate that from the art itself when we uh to to an To an extent, right? Like anytime John Byrne's politics seem to be influencing the writing at all, we do address it. But
Alpha Flight Storyline Recap
00:03:20
Speaker
um I don't I think it's i even I'm sure it exists and I'm sure you could find it, but I've never seen i haven't yet read a John Byrne comic book where his views on trans people were informing the writing.
00:03:39
Speaker
Yeah. um so that so So we acknowledge it. Probably won't come up, but we probably will talk about John Byrne's other shitty political views at some points because we always do every Alpha Flight episode. um We should also mention the last two issues in this are written by Bill Mantlo, and he continues the thread of being and prejudiced against people. Extremely ableist. Extremely ableist. It happens...
00:04:07
Speaker
Almost immediately. like've it's It's been like a running almost joke in this show, but I can't stress enough how every Bill Manlow comic book we've read so far has said something bad about some kind of disability.
00:04:23
Speaker
Yeah. Not one hasn't. And like, what is that, dude? I don't know. It's fucking weird. And I don't think we've made any secret about our feelings ah for Bill Mantlo on this podcast. But ah but yeah, today we get the yeah anyway, the best of them this We're going from John Byrne to Bill Mantlo. And um do you know how that happened, by the way? What happens? No, I don't.
00:04:53
Speaker
So it happens with a Hulk crossover, and it's because Bill Mantlo and John Byrne – like, John Byrne was under contract. Like, if he was going to write Fantastic Four, he had to write Alpha Flight and draw – like, he had to do an Alpha Flight comic.
00:05:05
Speaker
Right. And he was talking to his buddy, Bill Mantlo, probably about how much they hated different types of people, and they talked about – like, Bill Mantlo was writing The Hulk.
00:05:17
Speaker
And John Byrne was writing Alpha Flight and Bill Mantlo had some Alpha Flight ideas. John Byrne had some Hulk ideas and they were like, wait, do you think we could just switch? And that was their deal. Byrne would take over Hulk and Mantlo would take over Alpha Flight.
00:05:32
Speaker
And that's why their crossover involves like the the the transition involves a Hulk crossover. Yeah, yeah. It seems like if nothing else, because we say a lot of ah bad things about the man, it seems like Bill Mantlo...
00:05:48
Speaker
Was a good friend, a good, like, collaborative partner. Yeah. He loved his comic book buddies. Well, I mean, i think that's why he's, that's one of the reasons he's so beloved.
00:06:01
Speaker
When he had his accident, the community really, really rallied around him. Yeah, yeah.
Listener Emails & Discussions
00:06:07
Speaker
He was, it so by all accounts, he was a sweetheart. He was a lovely guy. He was friendly to newcomers and old heads alike, so...
00:06:16
Speaker
But, you know, sometimes ah the biggest racist, you know, works in a soup kitchen, right? Like everybody, people are complicated. Everybody's got the good and bad. All right. ah With that, Matt, what let's ah let's brighten things back up a bit. What has Alpha Flight been up to?
00:06:39
Speaker
All right. Let's see. Last. OK, let's brighten things up. Sasquatch is dead. Right, because he was actually an evil ancient god.
00:06:50
Speaker
Yes, so it was, this is so funny because we've also been talking about, i love how vindicated we are I love when we are so vindicated. We've been talking about what a dumb dipshit Walter Lankowski is. And it turns out.
00:07:05
Speaker
It's canon. Yeah, it turns out he made up all the science. behind which his transition. It was actually just him being possessed by a demon.
00:07:15
Speaker
He was so dumb. That the great, the ancient, the great beasts took notice and were like, hey, this guy's doing the dumbest science ever.
00:07:26
Speaker
bet one of us could possess him and convince him it was his science that did it. Right. It's not like a, this isn't a guy that doesn't tell everybody he got bit by a zombie. This is guy who doesn't.
00:07:41
Speaker
doesn't realize getting bit by a zombie is bad. Right? He's like, oh it might make me stronger. I'm actually smarter than the zombie virus. So if I get bit by a zombie, I'm actually going to be just a little faster and stronger.
00:07:56
Speaker
Yeah, I'll probably cure it. I'm just going to eat some red meat and I'll be fine. You know, being bit by a zombie, everybody knows that guy, right? The guy who's like, who like thinks they have a loophole for everything, right? Like, ah yeah what if I was a bit by a zombie, I would just eat red meat. Duh.
00:08:13
Speaker
I just eat red meat all the time and I'd be fine. I will say anybody who thinks they would survive this, Like a zombie apocalypse because they have some sort of plan is the least likely person to survive that scenario. I think if you think you're prepared for it, you're going to die really fast. Yeah, you have to be fucking terrified. I mean, this is the case with a lot of different stuff. It's like the most confident people are the ones who are fucked.
00:08:44
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Except for the occasional extremely confident and extremely right person. That's why we get all these
X-Men & Power Pack Crossover
00:08:53
Speaker
movies about it. I've been personally dealing with somebody like this about the law, and it's just really funny to watch him lose over and over again to watch this guy just be like, hey, I'm a little smarter than the law, and just lose one after another. Okay, so Snowbird...
00:09:14
Speaker
discovers this about walter lankowski and then fucking kills him yeah kills him just murdered and then uh then she's like but we can save him if we all go to the kingdom of the beasts right that's where they're keeping his soul any other um alpha flight observations I think the other thing worth bringing back up just because we haven't seen much of them is the partnership of Madison Jeffries and Roger Box.
00:09:47
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Roger box created a robot that was used misused by, i forget his name to kill guardian. ah Jerry Jackson, Jerry Jackson, Jackson, and box has been looking to get revenge. So Madison Jeffries, who is techno path. Is that what we call him?
00:10:10
Speaker
Something like that. Techno kinetic can manipulate machines at will with his mind. It helped him design a better box, a better robot.
00:10:22
Speaker
Yes. And this was that this was the only time we saw Madison Jeffries, right? Like, he was in the picture at the very beginning of Betaflight and whatever. But yeah, we haven't seen him in action in any way, except for just helping repair an old robot.
00:10:36
Speaker
Right. We just saw him after Guardian's death chatting with Roger Boxx. repairing box and we we know very little about Madison Jeffries um
00:10:59
Speaker
oh the music kicked in Matt were you gonna say something guess not Okay, well, good, because it's time anyway for Pat's email corner.
00:11:14
Speaker
oh i've seen I've been there. We got a bunch, Matt. Are you ready? Are you ready for this ah marathon? I've never been readier.
00:11:25
Speaker
ah Starting with email Michael responding to episode 64. Okay. okay Email Michael says, hey, Pat, could you please tell Matt that it's fine if you want to change the format of the opening of these emails from simply tel Matt?
00:11:39
Speaker
I'll try to keep up. If you remember. we ever say it was please? We never said it was please. We did it. Somebody somebody did it. And we were like, oh, that's very sweet. Everybody should do this from now on. I forgot. I don't remember anything from Pat's email corner.
00:11:55
Speaker
Two questions were asked this time. First, Can you use anodyne in a sentence to describe Tylenol? Here's my best attempt. Forsooth, this headache doth vex me terribly, and I am in dire need of the anodyne effects of Tylenol.
00:12:10
Speaker
Perfect. Perfect. Yeah, that's a great example. No notes. Second, is Rogue making North Star dance with her homophobic, as Matt thinks, in that she's taunting him playfully but not hatefully, as in this isn't threatening because he's gay, or is she totally oblivious to it, which is Pat's stance?
00:12:28
Speaker
I always assume anything written in the 80s features a lot of ingrained homophobia by default, and I assume the same here. It's only a guess, and Pat could well be right. But I'm going to go with Matt this time. I'm often right when I assume the worst about comic book writers from this era. Always the pessimist. Email Michael.
00:12:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, it definitely. Because again, yours your supposes, pat that she saw Northstar hooking up with a bunch of men was just confused. Was just like, yeah, did I do that? Did I do all of that?
00:13:07
Speaker
Which could very well be. But yeah, if we are if we're taking a bad faith reading here, I suppose. i Up next, Matt, this one's going to be in response to episode 65. You remember that one?
00:13:21
Speaker
ah This one's from Weapon Jason. It says, hey, Pat, tell Matt new rules are out the window already. I wonder if the re-release of Disney's Songs of the South. are I wonder if the re-release of Disney's Songs of the South in 1980, or give her age, maybe the early 70s re-release, had possibly put the idea into Louisa's mind to make use of the name slash powers for a character. Remember, there's a character that goes by
Warlock & Character Interactions
00:13:52
Speaker
what is dubiously a racial slur, I guess.
00:13:57
Speaker
Is a racial slur, but its origins are not dubiously racist. Yes. The film was incredibly popular for a long time and something a lot of folks saw. The last release of the film wasn't until the year after these issues, 1986. And I do remember that the general awareness that it was not just a regular Disney film, but had way more racist aspects was not something that hit the general zeitgeist until probably sometime in the early ninety s So, dude, i um I went to Disney World in the early 90s, I think two times. and there was And Thunder Mountain was Song of the South themed. There was a bunch of scenes with Brr Bear and Brr Rabbit and Brr Fox. And I fucking loved these guys as a little kid. I was like, yeah these characters are so cool and so fun and so cute and funny.
00:14:49
Speaker
And I bought all the little figurines of the Brayers in the gift shop. And I was always so baffled. Like, why is there not more Br'er stuff?
00:15:01
Speaker
Yeah. Why is there not more of this stuff? And why have I never seen the movie with Zippity-Doo-Dah in it? Right. Because by that time it had kind of come over folks like it was starting to.
00:15:14
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. yeah And as weapon Jason points out, this is a pre internet time. He so loves to point this out. Two things we know about weapon Jason. He hates inkers and he hates hate the internet and he hates the internet. He really, he wants us to envision a time before the internet and every, at every opportunity. Right.
00:15:35
Speaker
He goes on He says, I've always enjoyed power packs sort of in the same way I occasionally enjoy a Richie Rich or Hot Stuff or other horror comics. Yeah, it's for kids, but there's something kind of charming about it.
00:15:47
Speaker
And loved these crossovers with the X-Men as means to generally humanize and have the X-Men briefly feel like they weren't so scary. they Was that the general consensus is X-Men's good, but it's scary.
00:16:00
Speaker
it's I mean, it's dark. People are like, ah, they're reading an X-Men comic and they go, ah, and go out under the covers. I also like that we see the first hints of Kitty Pryde's leadership abilities, as well as Wolverine's growing get along better with kids than adults tendencies.
00:16:18
Speaker
He really is the coolest during this period. Yeah, 100%. love... I love that. That's a thing that continues to grow about Wolverine is like he just gets kids.
00:16:29
Speaker
And as I mentioned on your popular discord, thank you for the discord plug. Everybody's for the discord. The fact that juggernaut slash cane Marco is just trying to live a normal life despite being burdened with his powers. but keeps running into the consequences of trying to just kill Xavier all those years ago is so great.
00:16:50
Speaker
I think this part of Claremont sort of establishing that just because you have powers doesn't mean you can't try to quit the hero villain life. Something I think he was trying to do with Scott. And then... Interesting. yeah I think...
00:17:05
Speaker
but Again, i it is it it is important that he points out, we keep saying Cain Marco innocent, but he did try to kill x Xavier a whole lot of times. And the one time he thought x Xavier was already dead, he tried to kill everybody else because he was mad about it.
00:17:24
Speaker
Well, yeah, but even that was just like, that's trauma. That's him. That's him just not processing it correctly, you know? And again, also about the Claremont and Cyclops thing, he was trying to remove Cyclops from the X-Men.
00:17:44
Speaker
Like, yes, I think you're right, Weapon Jason, that he was bringing Scott back some, like, an an occasional story to be like, yeah, this life follows you. The decisions you made while you were in it will still haunt you afterwards, history of violence style. But...
00:18:00
Speaker
He was trying to have characters grow out of and graduate the X-Men. He didn't want Scott to come back. And I think it's really important we establish that with listeners before we get to a few episodes from now. Yeah.
Midwestern Influence in Comics
00:18:22
Speaker
ah And then finally, i i have no idea what this is in reference to Matt, but he says also Matt's laugh is totally evil villain. Pat, yours is definitely more heroic. Just saying.
00:18:34
Speaker
Fuck. and That's weird because in life I'm generally the more heroic one and you're more the villainous one. and I know. A new email. Time to move on, Matt.
00:18:47
Speaker
Sweet Douglas. Hey, sweet Douglas. Sent us in an email with the subject line Winner's League. Hey, Pat, tell Matt that since the Winner's League has so many comedians that maybe we could have our own alpha flight or since we all write so many letters, alphabet flight.
00:19:06
Speaker
i
00:19:09
Speaker
He goes on about Warlock. As a character, he grates me the same way Jar Jar Binks does. No, no, no. I can see where that comes from. i disagree because he's adorable and Jar Jar Binks was not. But I can see the sort of like wacky, miscommunicative, ay fish out of water sort of comparison there.
00:19:34
Speaker
But also Warlock kind of fits in with the New Mutants where Jar Jar Binks did not fit in with the Star Wars characters. And Warlock is a true hero in the Jar Jar Binks. Yeah, no. um I can see i can see the similarities, but I also very heartily disagree. I think there's too many dissimilarities.
00:19:51
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you. Sweet Douglas. So sweet. So sweet. What a sweet. What a sweet Douglas. Ambitious Eric is up next, Matt. He says, i raced to my computer to type this email.
00:20:05
Speaker
Hey, Pat. Tell Matt the blonde wizard in DC Comics is John Constantine rhymes with wine. John Constantine rhymes with ween looks like Keanu Reeves.
00:20:17
Speaker
What? Huh. Is there? what I. Huh. All right. Just keep going. Just keep going. We got to ignore that part. Is that real?
00:20:29
Speaker
I don't. Is this like the Aleister Crowley thing? Everyone calls him Crowley, but it's Crowley. Expand on this just because what the fuck are you talking about? It's John Constantine. says.
00:20:42
Speaker
I am from the Midwest. Great Lakes Avengers forever. So another Midwestern. I don't think we knew that about ambitious hair, but another Midwesterner. Another Midwesterner. We got Midwesterners and we got Canadians. We got one big circle of humans.
00:20:58
Speaker
To Matt's credit, Jim Fuck is probably the best Grim Fluter name in a while. I laughed out loud. People might have heard me.
00:21:08
Speaker
I don't know who that is. ah Thank you, ambitious Eric. We got to keep moving here. Just a couple more to get to. Number one, Ink Master, in response to episode 65, says, Hey, Pat, tell Matt that I think Julie Powers Rainbow Trail is possibly meant to be cyan, magenta, and yellow based on the subtractive CMYK color model.
Comic Book Shopping Tales
00:21:35
Speaker
I think you're right. I think you're absolutely right. Color my yams. Karen. Color myams karen's my To explain for Pat, adipose tissue is what body fat is made up of.
00:21:52
Speaker
Matt didn't know that. You'd think know that. All right. ah I would still argue that being able to create stone that you can encase an iron still isn't loophole still isn't a loophole as it doesn't appear to be something all they can do and is either specific to dwarves or specific to that special that dwarf.
00:22:14
Speaker
That one's for you, Matt. So, it's just, it's just, it's not, why bring it, okay, all right, all right, I'm i'm with you in that, okay, fine, mutants have special abilities.
00:22:29
Speaker
So, if you are a mutant fey, having the ability to create a barrier between you and iron, fine like, yeah, okay, fine, yeah, yeah, that's what a mutant fey might be, but. Point for Ink Master. But. it They made a point of, like, reminding us that they are weak to iron right before they just, like, eliminated that element from the equation, which is what made it feel like a loophole, right? Like, why be, like, vampires need to be invited into house, right?
00:23:09
Speaker
This actually is in a house. Like, okay, well, then why did you need to tell me? Vampires need to be invited in. There's no walls. So the bar vampire can just walk in. wait i don't need to know the rule then.
00:23:21
Speaker
Interesting. So if if we're just speaking facts, if we're speaking about the the facts that you were arguing, Ingmester's right here.
00:23:33
Speaker
He goes on, he says in this ongoing saga, as for my laptop, I still don't have it back yet, but the new LCD cable came in the same day the last episode went out. So progress is still being made.
00:23:46
Speaker
Pray for Master's Laptop. If I don't have it back by the time this episode airs, I should have it the weekend after it airs. Please keep us posted. Ink Master, you need that laptop.
00:23:58
Speaker
I'm not religious in any way, but I will be praying for Ink Master's laptop. And I want you all, whether you're religious or not, to do it too. Don't do it. If you're not religious, it won't do anything. Do it.
00:24:08
Speaker
Do it though.
00:24:13
Speaker
Finally, Matt, we have a brand new emailer i'm calling himself. Tell me they're not Canadian. Calling himself the Canadian son. What the fuck?
00:24:28
Speaker
Hey, Matt. Number one podcast of the of Canada for Canadians. Hey, Matt, tell Pat to tell Matt that my father. Hang on a second.
00:24:39
Speaker
No, it's your first time Canadian son. The formatting is, Pat, please tell Matt. Canadian son, you really. Some people come out swinging with their formatting.
00:24:52
Speaker
This is a swing. choices Yeah. Anyway, hey, Matt, tell Pat to tell Matt that my father, Canadian Dan, has recommended me your show. oh Wow. Canadian fan doing exactly what we told them to at the dinner table to your family.
00:25:07
Speaker
Don't let them talk about anything else until they confirm they will listen to the mutant menace podcast. Do you guys talk about mutant menace at the dinner table? Oh, that's I don't know if I'm comfortable with that.
00:25:21
Speaker
Wait, everybody. Hold on. Two things i need. We need from you. This is the only two things. If we ask you anything else this episode, we need you to at least do these two things. Number one.
00:25:32
Speaker
Pray for Ink Master's laptop. Number two, tonight, after listening to this episode, you have to, no matter who you're having dinner with, no matter where, no matter when, no matter what, you have to bring up this episode of Mutant Menace. Hey, I
Alpha Flight Plot Deep Dive
00:25:48
Speaker
was listening to Mutant Menace today.
00:25:50
Speaker
You have to do that at dinner. That's such a good idea. Yeah. Matt. fine this This is what's going to put us on the map. Finally. We spent $300. He mailed flyers to every comic book shop in America. And he We got 10 listeners. We forgot about the dinner table. We'll us 100 more. i Okay, Canadian Son goes on. i have enjoyed your show very much and had many laughs. Also, don't mind my father. He tries to put down that Canadian stereotype of being nice, but he wouldn't even hurt a fly.
00:26:28
Speaker
ah Sincerely, Canadian Son, sent from my iPhone.
00:26:51
Speaker
And that, Matt, is the end of Pat's email corner. Do we normally reference Pat's email corner after it's over? Like after the piano plays?
00:27:03
Speaker
I'm not sure, but i if we don't, then I'm just trying something new. All right. Hey. If we do, then yes, you idiot. What is what is what is art if not experimentation?
00:27:15
Speaker
That's right. matt Matt, speaking of doing something new, I got to ask you. Please. Have you done anything X-Men related this week? Pat, as a matter of fact, I i actually really have. um I got the Nintendo Switch 2 for my first day.
00:27:34
Speaker
Sure. That's exciting. And I got, I did get the new Pokemon game, Pokemon Pocopia. It's like, um it's like if Pokemon was a um Animal Crossing or,
00:27:48
Speaker
like a Minecraft or like a Stardew Valley. Like it's like a little, it's like a little town sim and like farming sim. And you like each Pokemon will come. Like you have to build habitats that'll attract Pokemon. And then they ask you to do little tasks for them. And you're sort of like exploring this giant area and you're building this whole little Pokemon town. And it's like, it's just a very new novel way to collect Pokemon. So that is my Pokemon related thing this week.
00:28:15
Speaker
no No, no, no, no, Matt. What? it's got It's got to be X-Men related. What? We're doing X-Men related. We do Pokemon related. All right, fine. Well, then what the fuck? Okay, fine. You, have you done anything X-Men related this week?
00:28:31
Speaker
I have actually, Matt. Something really actually X-Men related. Not like the way that you said it, but the way that it's real. said Pokemon, and I know I said Pokemon, and anyone can rewind, and they can say, you asked me if I did anything Pokemon related, and I said, yes, I did.
00:28:48
Speaker
Okay. i It's really good. pocoke picoa i thank you for asking, did do a little comic book shopping, Matt. and You know what I picked up? hell yeah i Frankly, I'm always comic book shopping. I spend money that I don't have on comic books. But you know what I picked up?
00:29:08
Speaker
Brian Michael Bendis' Secret War. oh yes. At the end. Holy shit. The one that he did back in like... what God, was that 2005? 2006? Yes. so Somewhere in the early aughts. um ah Yeah. Kicks off the entire series of events that he and I think Jonathan Hickman are known for.
00:29:34
Speaker
Like it's Secret War leads into House of M. There's really strong connections there as well as Disassembled, which all kind of merges itself into...
00:29:47
Speaker
Secret invasion and eventually civil war. And then it was like um they get into after that. It was like a bunch of Marvel characters who were hired by Nick Fury.
00:29:59
Speaker
To undertake a mission in Latveria. Yeah, to overthrow the government of Latveria. And it had to be done secretly because they didn't want to start an international incident in a war between the two countries.
00:30:13
Speaker
Yes. And the the i I got the yeah the trade, so it's got a lot of supplemental information and a huge deal about it being... a true story that bendis learned from a family friend that was in the cia that told him about stuff they shouldn't have been telling him about but i essentially this all happened just not with superheroes
00:30:41
Speaker
yeah interesting um it was it good you i mean i i've read it i know and i know it was good but how did you feel about it It's very good. i It is when Brian Bendis was still young and scrappy and was really doing things that were different with comics. And it's got all yeah his favorite characters in it, which tend to line up a lot with all my favorite characters. the Daredevil, Luke Cage, Wolverine, and Captain America. All the big boys. Spider-Man.
00:31:12
Speaker
Yeah, I... Man, there was a time when Brian Bendis was the like the best writer going, um or one of them. It's like the Geoff Johns thing, right? Where Bendis and Geoff Johns, at the they did at the same time. Where they were doing these really cool, um radical things with superhero comics, but still within the bounds of superhero comics. Yes. and then they did it so much...
00:31:40
Speaker
that that became the standard and they were right each writing a thousand titles at once. And then it just became so fucking boring. It became so boring by the time Bendis was on like X-Men and Iron Man and stuff. It was like, I don't want read this comic ever again.
00:31:58
Speaker
Yeah. I've had an, I've read enough dialogue for the rest of my life. Right, right. And same with Jeff Johns. I and i know so Green Lantern is considered like one of his his like opus, but i had I had already read all of JSA and Stars and Stripe and Hawkman and The Flash. And so by the time i was reading Green Lantern, was like, it's just more Jeff Johns.
00:32:19
Speaker
It's just more. Also, he turned out to be super racist. So Jeff Johns, not Brian Bendis. That's true. We don't know about Brian. No, I'm not Brian Bendis i'm yet.
00:32:30
Speaker
I'm pretty sure Brian Bendis is not super racist. um Well. Pat, that's a cool X-Men related thing. Thank you. Not as good as mine, but.
00:32:42
Speaker
I don't remember what yours was.
00:32:46
Speaker
But. um pat All right, right. Will you fucking read me Alpha Flight 24 already? Matt, I was going to say it. I will read
Narrative Consistency in Alpha Flight
00:32:56
Speaker
you Alpha Flight number 24 already.
00:32:59
Speaker
Okay. Final Conflict. That's my favorite Conflict album. It really is. It actually is. Look it up. It's a good album.
00:33:11
Speaker
ah Story in pencils, John Byrne embellishing Bob Wyachek, coloring Andy Yankus, lettering Rick Parker, editing Dennis O'Neill and Peacekeeper.
00:33:24
Speaker
Peacekeeper? peace Peacekeeper? Peacekeeper. Peacekeeper. Peacekeeper. Never heard of him. Release date, April 2nd, 1985. Cover date, July Do you remember when that guy wrote and wrote a fantasy novel and clearly just Googled, like, had included some recipe for soup in the novel and clearly just Googled it?
00:33:52
Speaker
Yes. And it was a Breath of the Wild Zelda recipe. Yeah, it included Red Liz Fallows tales or whatever. Yeah, it kid and key swings. Yeah.
00:34:07
Speaker
ah that's so okay all right uh heather this is alpha flight number 24 remember chapter one chapter one it's divided into chapters the second you see that you're like fucking pretentious no this is like 18 pages you have six chapters i think there's one chapter that is just an argument between north star and shit It's like chapter two, they argue, and then it's like chapter three.
00:34:40
Speaker
Heather, Puck, Talisman, Aurora, and Snowbird gather in a weird crater with Walter's body encased in some kind of stone. Talisman sends out a magic summons that forces Shaman and Northstar to show up, and neither of them are happy about it.
00:34:56
Speaker
It just like it compels people to ah arrive like to show up to help like a like a D&D spell. see Yeah, yeah. i I can't believe this is the first time she's thought to use that, that she can compel people to her will and with everything they've been through.
00:35:16
Speaker
Pulling some sort of magic key from his bag, Shaman breaks a barrier and they all traverse the dimensional rift, leaving Heather behind with Walter's body. There's a really good moment where Shaman is like, all right, you're about to see things that you have never seen before. This is interplanar travel.
00:35:35
Speaker
This is going to be almost too much to look at. And Puck's like, oh, well, I imagine it to kind of look like this from all the reading I've done. And Shaman's like, what?
00:35:47
Speaker
Okay, there are other realms that look like that. Yes, that's not the realm we're going to.
00:35:55
Speaker
I love Puck. Puck is just like a little smarter than Shaman, and Shaman's like, no. Yeah, no, it's not like that, but you're not wrong. You're not, okay, I can't can't say he's wrong, but no, this is different from...
00:36:11
Speaker
I know about it. You don't. they They arrive in a vast psychedelic city in the realm of the great beasts. A world once inhabited, pillaged, and corrupted by the beasts before they moved onto Earth.
00:36:25
Speaker
This is such a fucking, sorry, this is just such a, so far We're already on chapter three, by the way. are So far, ah John Byrne is just like taking the hero's journey like that. He must have just read Joseph Campbell like that week because he's taking it so literally. He's like he has the gathering of the heroes. he has the heroes, refus the refusal of the call like.
00:36:54
Speaker
North star's literally like, I will leave. And then that's why I refuse this call. Exactly. And then they're like crossing the first bear. We have to cross the first barrier. like It is every moment of this story is so literally the steps of the hero's journey that is it's, it's, it's actually absurd.
00:37:21
Speaker
So the beasts ah moved onto Earth. They were driven back three times, the last of which trapped them and the ancient gods of the North in this realm. Okay. The realm of the beasts. And so black and white, it's kind of cool looking.
00:37:35
Speaker
It is kind of cool looking. Although there's also, i once again, a reason to not have to do too much work on the comic to get it done.
00:37:47
Speaker
Northstar, Aurora, and Snowbird go searching for Walter when they run into Soman, the Artificer, the oldest and most powerful of the beasts. okay When Snowbird taunts him, he summons Kariuk and Tolomac, along with a resurrected Tundra, to attack the other three teammates.
00:38:06
Speaker
They fight the beasts as Snowbird turns into a polar bear attacking Soman. This causes Soman to lose control and the great beasts begin fighting each other. Shaman must tame Snowbird's polar bear form because if she kills Soman, the the realm will crumble and they will never find Walter.
00:38:24
Speaker
Now fully cucked, the pitiful Soman directs the team to the Well of Sorrows where they can find Walter's soul. o A lot happening here, but there's another moment for Snowbird where she's fighting Soman, the great the the greatest of the great beasts, nay in her human form.
00:38:48
Speaker
And loses, starts losing, and then she has to remember, like, oh, wait, I could turn into a fucking polar bear. And then she does it. And then wins handily. but you do They have to stop her from killing him.
00:39:03
Speaker
There's a lot of cool action in this but in this issue. And i like I don't dislike the story because it is just the hero's journey, right? there's Again, there's an atonement. there's a Every step is here. there's the ah like Clearly, at this point, we're in the innermost cave and there will be a mastery of two worlds. All of it's there.
00:39:22
Speaker
But, in return with the elixir, everything. But this is also one of the worst written alpha flight issues we've had here. there's There's just mistakes everywhere. There's a point where Jaman is like, then we'll have to deal with the beast.
00:39:40
Speaker
And it never finishes. Nothing interrupts him. Yeah, it's just as if they didn't. there's ah There's a scene where they use the word here like four times and like here lie the souls of those who are here and here they lie. And also here, here also is the place where he was sent. He was sent here. It's just like in one panel, the word here is there four times.
00:40:08
Speaker
And here lies being three of
Walter Lankowski's Character Arc
00:40:10
Speaker
them. you Not in a poetic way. This issue was very much for the art, not for the the dialogue.
00:40:19
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Excuse me. also john byrne I think John Byrne got really into what he was drawing, maybe so much so that it actually couldn't be colored because he had to take all that time to to line and ink it. And then he had to rush through the dialogue just to be like, okay,
00:40:38
Speaker
I know what's happening here. i should try to explain it. There's a lot of dialogue and it is, it is almost all bad. Like this is, this is probably his worst written issue Back on Earth, Box appears in the crater, responding also to talisman summons. Everybody shows up and is like, what a pain in the ass. I did not know you could do this.
00:41:03
Speaker
Please don't do this again. There he finds Heather rambling to herself and Walter's rocky body beginning to crumble. Oh, no. At the Well of Sorrows. Not our favorite, Walter. Walter.
00:41:18
Speaker
At the Well of Sorrows, they find that Walter can only be saved by one who loves him, one who hates him, and one whose power is greater than snowbirds.
00:41:31
Speaker
Some sort of ancient riddle. Hey, ah conveniently. for you ah One who is gay, one who is slutty, and one who is a daughter.
00:41:50
Speaker
Just like he's picking shit that's in the panel. is Yeah, yeah.
00:41:57
Speaker
He didn't even look around the room. He just looked down at the the table in front of him. Yeah, exactly. if So, Aurora, Northstar, and Talisman travel into the dark, but As Puck intuited, it was a trap, and Soman kills all three of them.
00:42:14
Speaker
And then a Snowbird kills Soman, then some magical stuff happens, and all three come back to life, and they find the soul of Walter Lankowski in a glowing ball. Yeah, this... Okay, just more bullshit. Alright, we just have to keep breaking down how dumb this all is. So, Puck, when when when Soman is telling them about all this these magical rules...
00:42:38
Speaker
Puck is like, i don't trust it. i I think he might be trying to trick us. And then you turn the page and Soman's like, ha ha, I tricked you. And then,
00:42:53
Speaker
and then ah and then John Byrne, and he's he does this a lot, he keeps implying Talisman is like this ultra powerful, like the most powerful character in the Marvel Universe and has this massive, this incredible destiny that's going to change the entire universe.
00:43:11
Speaker
Have you ever fucking seen Talisman in another comic book? No, I didn't know who she was until we started reading Alpha Flight. Yeah, she has no impact in the Marvel Universe whatsoever. She appears sometimes and she has absolutely nothing.
00:43:26
Speaker
Yeah. And then the Walter's soul trapped. it So they go through all this shit in the well of sorrows and they get out and the world is crumbling. And then it's and then shaman's like, wait above us this entire time.
00:43:40
Speaker
There's been a glowing ball. What is that's Walter's soul? And they're like, and then it's Walter's soul. Jesus Christ, man. The the great beast, bo the boss beast.
00:43:53
Speaker
said, go into the Well of Sorrows. That's where you'll find it. And then he revealed that he was lying, but they didn't know what else to do with themselves after they killed him. So they're like, I guess we'll just go to the Well of Sorrows.
00:44:07
Speaker
But they also use Soman's... words in like a really obtuse way to be like, what if he was talking about this the whole time? And it's like, then if he was just lying and trapping you, why would he but also given you clues? Is he the fucking Riddler?
00:44:27
Speaker
As the Realm of the Beasts crumbles around them, they teleport they teleport back to Earth only to find Walter's body a pile of rubble. Yay! I mean, they're sad. yeah Shaman has an idea, though. If Roger hops out of the box robot, they can put Walter into it.
00:44:46
Speaker
It works. His soul is now inside the box robot. But now that the Great Beasts are gone, Snowbird has no purpose anymore, so she disappears.
00:44:58
Speaker
But later we find her in Doug Thompson's house, ready to be human for the first time. Yeah, they're doing some kissing. They they are. She says, yeah and she says, teach me to be a woman.
00:45:09
Speaker
Oh boy. That's how it ends. She's, she told all of it just to, to be clear here. She told all of alpha flight, like, okay, my time on earth is done. I'll see you later.
00:45:21
Speaker
And then just went to Scott's apart or just went to Doug's apartment. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, you know, not a bad twist. Provided, you know, that Snowbird is out of the picture for a while, right? Like we probably won't see her again for a while. Otherwise, that whole ending is meaningless, right? So like, right, you probably won't see her again for a while.
00:45:44
Speaker
I guess. Sorry, I know I keep saying obvious stuff to you. i don't know why I do this. um
Plot Twist: Delphine Courtney & Guardian
00:45:52
Speaker
Oh, we also get some disconfirmation about our theory that he was intentionally making Walter a dipshit.
00:46:00
Speaker
Yes. Because they start. Apparently, Walter has a great and noble soul. yeah I don't think that's true. I know that John Byrne created and has exclusively written him, but...
00:46:16
Speaker
hyd I don't think that's true. I think he's wrong with this one. Yeah, I mean, it's just it's just evidence that he doesn't realize what's shitty about Walter Lankowski. Yeah, he thinks this is normal dude being. John Byrne thinks that Walter Lankowski is cool as hell.
00:46:32
Speaker
And he's like, I'm going to make the noblest soul I can make. And it turns out to be a shitty, sexist jock who's bad at science and keeps getting all his friends killed.
00:46:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yep. right Well, what makes me even more angry about Walter Lankowski is that we don't get to see Roger box in the box robot. We, there were like three separate issues that touched on the progress of him building this robot so that he could finally kick ass in a way that he's never done before.
00:47:07
Speaker
And then the first time we see him after that, he just has to give up the robot to Walter Lankowski. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sucks. Sucks. Well, do you want me to tell you about, do you want me move forward and tell you about Alpha Flight number 24? Awful Flight.
00:47:24
Speaker
Awful Flight number 25? And Graves Give Up Their Dead.
00:47:32
Speaker
Ellipses at the start and the end of this title. And grapes give up their dead.
00:47:43
Speaker
John Burns, story in pencils, Bob Wyeth, check inking, Rick Parker, lettering, Andy Yankus, coloring, Denny O'Neill, editing John Jay, or Jim. Yeah, John Jay, editor in chief and Bill Mantlo, creative kibitzing. What the fuck?
00:47:59
Speaker
Yeah, it seems like this is where the transition starts. It seems like the we'll talk about it more at the end, but John Burns starts prepping the team for Bill Mantlo's takeover here.
00:48:12
Speaker
OK, release date April 30th, 1985, cover date August 1985. Matt,
00:48:18
Speaker
ma i am three days from being alive when this came out wow okay okay okay i was you're only dead for three more days you here you're you're coming up on the end of your death yeah north star god i like north star i love north star just looking at north star standing around i'm like that's a fucking cool figure that's a cool outfit that's a cool dude would you mean Like any superhero team, you'd like this guy on it. I don't know what you see in this guy.
00:48:52
Speaker
but
00:48:57
Speaker
North star stands before the members of alpha flight accused by his sister. Of being a criminal. For, for what? What is the charge?
00:49:08
Speaker
Eating a meal, a succulent Chinese meal. it's it says it's its It's his terrorist activities. It's connection to radical groups. But she doesn't know. She doesn't know shit about it. And why is why is he standing before a tribunal of Alpha Flight members having to explain himself?
00:49:33
Speaker
He asks this. He's like, is this a trial? Because I see no one here who I acknowledge to have the authority to pass judgment over me. Fuck yeah, North Star. Get him. Well, but then Puck is there. Puck and Roger Box and Heather Hudson. All right, a lot of people here, too. They have some authority.
00:49:53
Speaker
Like Shaman, Walter Lankowski, Aurora, not really. But Roger Box and Puck and Heather... They kind of are cool. Like they are, you know.
00:50:05
Speaker
Cops. I don't know what you're getting at here. Cool. They're just cool people. They're cool. They're people that I would be like, okay, you can talk to North Star like this. Yeah, he he should respect those three if no one else.
00:50:17
Speaker
There's sorry, just one more thing before we move on right out of the gate. The coloring is so loud. Yeah. his first few pages like the the first splash page North Star. It is black and white, high contrast uniform against a bright red background, like no, no detail or anything, just bright red panel with black and like a spotlight on him Yeah. Yeah. And it's it just it hurts. And then The entire time we stay in their office, ah this coloring pattern continues. I don't understand. Yeah, it's like bright pink and shit all over the place. And yeah, it's it's real rough.
00:50:58
Speaker
No time for that now, though. As Puck pretty anticlimactically tells the group that Guardian is not dead and is, in fact, fighting downtown.
00:51:10
Speaker
what the Why would you do that to a grieving widow? Just like... shes She says something like she's like, ever since Guardian died, and he's like, e not so fast. Actually, now that you mention that, you might want to rephrase that because your husband's running around alive. like How insensitive he's the guy from, he does it like the guy from Independence Day ah that tells the president that UFOs are real by going. That's not entirely true.
00:51:46
Speaker
They rush to the scene where talisman and guardian James McDonald have teamed up to take down Calibur. Why would you send to take down Calibur? He's a man in a robot suit. Why would you send talisman after him?
00:52:02
Speaker
Magic? Of all people. To stop his magic? In case he has any magic, Talisman. who I'm pretty sure he doesn't. I'm pretty sure he's like a techno guy. Nope, he might. He might do his spell. I saw he saw a robot guy do his spell once.
00:52:19
Speaker
Heather's in shock and faints when James moves in for a reunion kiss, waking back up in the office on the couch with James attending to her. Everybody else is being really cool about it. is that oh Oh, he's back. Cool. like Cool.
00:52:35
Speaker
What's up, dude?
00:52:40
Speaker
Okay. He tells her a story. ah A story that's like eight pages long. It's like yeah most of the time. We're getting a lot of lore heavy stuff through through this run. And we're going to have more to say about this story in ah in ah in ah in an issue or two. But he tells her a story. it Turns out with less than a second left before his suit exploded, he realized he could program the explosion to rip through space and time, sending him to Ganymede, one of Jupiter's moons, thousands of years in the past. He kind of died there, but was revived by a race of ancient aliens who became his friends and then cryo-froze him so he could return home to his normal time. and The only problem is that the aliens didn't know what a human was, so they repaired him. They didn't know the difference between his parts and suit parts.
00:53:25
Speaker
Now he's a part mechanical suit. Oh, no. Okay, so... There is... we get The reason she saw a dead James Hudson is because he carbonized the air, Pat. He did that. He did he carbonized the air.
00:53:43
Speaker
Yes. Oh, he just carbonized the air. That's why she thought he was dead. It was actually carbonized Carbonized air.
00:53:57
Speaker
This is, again, like focusing a lot more on the art and a lot less on the ah actual story. He's bored as hell. get eight pages of just some weird science fiction story that John Byrne wanted to tell and it really has no impact on the plot at all.
00:54:18
Speaker
We'll have more to say about it in the next step in the next issue. but it's It's kind of beautiful. It's like the art of the moons of Jupiter is super cool. Like he he clearly spent days putting this all together, making this really cool visual story. The aliens are non-humanoid, Matt. They're like yeah squid, but they're actually squid-like and not like people with squid pictures.
00:54:48
Speaker
It's like squid, but like outm made out of hair or angel hair. Yeah, it's weird stuff. And then like the wild the revelation that he's actually in the ancient past, which he didn't realize at first, and the the like death and rebirth cycle that he goes through. Stuff's really cool, I think.
00:55:04
Speaker
really I complained a lot in the early days of this podcast about them not being willing to dig into science fiction concepts and like fully explore how weird and creative you can get he's doing that here sure just without a point again it's just yeah it's just like he's he's so bored of alpha flight he just comes up with a completely different story and it's just like I'm gonna tell that instead and it it's also worth noting Very, very hilariously.
00:55:38
Speaker
So it was 10,000 years in the past. So there's no trace of these animals, these aliens left on Ganymede. His. Right. The society tore themselves apart while he was cryo frozen.
00:55:51
Speaker
His spaceship down a spaceship. His spaceship, when it hit the water, when it hit the ocean. It disintegrated on impact. Right.
00:56:02
Speaker
The spaceship that he found that they had left behind for him before they tore their society apart. And they got rid of his old costume and he he found this new costume in like a random cabin. and So like every scrap of evidence that this is true, there's a reason here why it can't be verified.
00:56:25
Speaker
Not quite meanwhile... I don't know what that means. I don't know what that means either. It's what John Burns said. Not quite meanwhile. Outside, Walter is punching rocks in the Box robot body.
00:56:39
Speaker
What a dork. Just for fun. just That's what I do. That's all does. While Roger Box observes and worries a little. Walt's having a great time until he realizes he can't have sex with Aurora in this robot body. She tells him, many this is something I will have to think about.
00:57:00
Speaker
As she flies off, leaving him dejected. But not all hope is lost. Roger has an idea that might allow them to return Walter to a human or at least penis having body to be continued.
00:57:15
Speaker
So, Bach's It's like when she's like, okay, so much to talk about here. First of all, in this little epilogue, I won't, I'm not sure I love you anymore if i if you don't have a penis. like that It is literally two pages about him not having a penis. And she's like, I don't know if I can love you without a penis.
00:57:38
Speaker
And He's like, oh, fuck, I gotta get a penis. But does this change your mind at all about Aurora, the scene where Aurora said she wanted to have sex with all the construction workers? And you were like, no, that's not what she meant.
00:57:55
Speaker
No. this is yeah All she cares about is penis. it's It's not... all she It's a deal breaker for her. It's all she cares about. But it's not like she runs off to have sex with someone else immediately. You don't know that. Yeah, I guess we don't actually know that. But no, this does not definitively, I think, okay say anything about that situation.
00:58:19
Speaker
um And then Box is like, when she flies off, he's like God, i got Walter's like, I gotta to get a penis.
00:58:29
Speaker
Man, it'll be decades before I have that kind of technology. Yeah.
00:58:38
Speaker
It's just like, oh, I don't know how to make a sex robot, Mr. Lankowski.
00:58:46
Speaker
Poor Roger Box just has to sit there and watch Walter abuse his body. Like, he's worried when Walter's just running around punching rocks. He's like... this isn't really designed for recreation like this, man. And, and Walter just doesn't hear it. And immediately after is like, all right, well, time to go have some fucking sex in this thing. This is not your body.
00:59:15
Speaker
don't Don't do this. And the whole time, box Roger Box is like, no. Please don't do that. You can't get it wet.
00:59:28
Speaker
And then and it turns out he was speaking prophetically in a way he didn't realize. Well.
00:59:37
Speaker
You mean like all right because he can't have sex with it.
00:59:42
Speaker
that what you mean? you and tell me Do you want to tell me about the next awful flight issue? Sure. Awful flight number 26. We should actually save that for when Bill Mantlo takes over. It's yeah right you're like this is still alpha flight.
00:59:55
Speaker
Alpha flight number 26. If at first you don't succeed. Yes. oh the John Byrne, writer pencils. Include that in the next issue's title. No, maybe this precedes the last. If at first you don't succeed and graves give up their dead.
01:00:16
Speaker
final conflicts Final conflict. conflict.
01:00:22
Speaker
John Byrne, story and pencils, Bob Wyacek inking, Rick Parker lettering, and he yank us coloring, Dennis O'Neill editing, and John Barron, editor in chief. Release date June 4th, 1985. I live, Matt. I'm alive.
01:00:39
Speaker
Oh. Cover date September 1985. What did you think of this issue when you were little then? i loved it. Okay. you were When you were one month and one day old.
01:00:57
Speaker
The newest incarnation of Alpha Flight, led once again by Guardian and with Walter Box among them, are fighting a bunch of robots at a Canadian army base. But it turns out just to be a training exercise. They got me! The government wanted to test their new Macrobots against a real threat.
01:01:15
Speaker
During battle, Guardian gets a little careless and Aurora is hurt. So Walter Box and Sean... Walter Box... Walter inside box walter boter box. Walter box. So Walter box and shaman take her to a medical bay while the rest of the team take off following a summons from Heather.
01:01:32
Speaker
We could also call him penisless Walter. Yeah.
01:01:38
Speaker
they they they're fighting these robots and it turns out to be a test fight but before we learn that Guardian calls them the Bozo Brigade that's so good Bozo Brigade they they turn into a like transformer robot like they all but or like a yeahron they all join together into a shape role They arrive at the massive West Edmonton Mall. Matt, have you heard of this? The West? Have you heard of this?
01:02:05
Speaker
You heard of this thing? Have you heard of this thing? We're both doing Jimmy Stewart. Just hosting show. Have you heard of this? Well, have you heard of this? West Edmonton Mall. No, attach to touchton tell me about the West Edmonton Mall.
01:02:19
Speaker
Well, it was the... I can't. Well, weird, wild stuff. It was the largest mall in the world. It was the largest mall in the world until 2004.
01:02:31
Speaker
Generally filled with shops, restaurants, and like amusement park stuff. Okay. In America, we have the Mall of America. This sounds a lot like that, where it's just like. Okay.
01:02:42
Speaker
Big, super big mall that has like, um. Fun things to do. Yeah, yeah. Because Matt, you and I have one of the largest malls in the country near us, but there's nothing fun to do there. The King of Pressure Mall.
01:02:58
Speaker
That's right. There's no yeah they they don't have rides. Well, this mall, the West Edmonton Mall, was completed in 1981. It went through a few phases of building, but there was a big update in 1985.
01:03:11
Speaker
which is why it's kind of on the map. Clearly, i think. Oh, soy yeah. We're just getting John Burns impressions of the mall as they're like, they just have the characters walk around going like, this is the biggest damn mall I've ever seen.
01:03:28
Speaker
but Just like petty, very John Byrne. They even have a ah pool in this mall. But get this, Matt. One year after releasing this issue, there was a tragic accident on the roller coaster.
01:03:41
Speaker
June 1986. So June 1986. Yeah. yeah You know of anything else that happens in June 1986?
01:03:50
Speaker
it's what John Byrne also uses some like his characters as his mouth, like political mouthpiece again about his feelings about the west West Edmonton Mall. They're like, I don't know if I should be impressed or grossed out about all the money and effort they used up to make this place. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. There's two pages of the characters just walking around saying things like that.
01:04:12
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Just like talking about like the politics of building. Yeah.
01:04:20
Speaker
So they arrive at the West Edmonton Mall to find North Star is currently fighting a reformed Omega flight. The three decide to split up and search them all.
01:04:32
Speaker
Okay. Puck runs into his old Gamma flight teammate, Diamond Lil. Diamond Lil's back. Diamond Lil's back. I love her. And just as he's about to kick her in the face, he finds himself suspended in midair.
01:04:47
Speaker
An offscreen figure gloats and with a wave of its hand catapults Puck off into the distance. Who's that? Who could that be? Talisman runs into Flashback.
01:04:58
Speaker
Remember this guy? Flashback who can only who summons his future selves. as many as he needs to yeah it's multiply himself which was a blatant ripoff of the character ah legion from captain yeah alan moore's no alan moore's captain britain um and the the difference here is that flashback Some of his doppelgangers from the future are wearing an inverted costume.
01:05:37
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Like some is black on top and white on the bottom and some is white on top and black on the bottom, which means that every now and then... he has to remind himself to change costumes in case he gets just um case he gets picked out of time. And he's like, it looks cooler when I do it this way.
01:05:55
Speaker
Well, he's nailing it. He's always the one in black and somehow, despite not being able to control it, always pulling out the ones dressed in white. Yeah. Yeah.
01:06:07
Speaker
Talisman runs into flashback who says something racist at her and quickly surrounds her with his temporal doubles. Talisman is planning a counter spell, When a beam strikes her from above from a red and white costumed hand.
01:06:21
Speaker
Huh? Who could that be? Red and white costumed hand, Matt. it means you see the hand of a costume and that costume is colored red and white. I can't think of anyone with a red and white costume.
01:06:34
Speaker
We catch up with North Star, whose flight is interrupted by Wildchild. Northstar winds up to tackle him, but slams directly into an invisible force field. A red and white costumed butt tells us that they have one more plan to execute before Omega Flight's rendezvous.
01:06:51
Speaker
I don't know anyone with a red and white costumed butt. I think you do, Matt. Think about it. Think hard. I'm thinking so hard, Pat. Heather is walking through a comic book store looking for bad guys when Guardian shows up in front of her.
01:07:05
Speaker
She starts briefing him on the situation when his voice suddenly changes. She recognizes it. It's the voice of Jerry Jackson, but he's dead. So Guardian pulls off his face and reveals that he's actually not James Hudson or Jerry Jackson. He's the android Delphine Courtney, and she's here to destroy Alpha Flight.
01:07:27
Speaker
To be continued. Oh
01:07:34
Speaker
I thought that was a cool twist. I didn't know what was going on here. i was suspicious of this guardian. Okay. I think because he the first thing he does is kiss Heather. And I was like, oh, this is bad news because she doesn't.
01:07:47
Speaker
She doesn't yeah really embrace it. It wasn't a like she passes out. It wasn't a happy kiss. Yeah. But the reveal that it's actually Delphine Courtney and and. ah She's actually a complex robot that can do that has like a personality and emotions and can do amazing things.
01:08:07
Speaker
What a cool. ah What a cool reveal. Yeah, I. I wondered if it would work on you because you had said from the very beginning you didn't think Guardian was going to stay dead.
01:08:21
Speaker
And then he we had a funeral for him and he like was fully dead and you were surprised by that. And so I thought when he came back, you would fully buy into the fact that this is Guardian.
01:08:33
Speaker
i will say yeah from the point that we saw him a few issues ago when he was running away from Heather, like they just spotted him in the street. Until he went in for that kiss, I was like, I fucking told you.
01:08:48
Speaker
But then the way that it played out, I was just like, this is fishy. Something's wrong. I smelled it. I could smell it on the comic book.
01:08:59
Speaker
So wait, hold on, Pat. Let's go back to last issue for a second. Oh, yeah. Because that means that that entire fucking story that 1930s sci-fi pulp novel story yeah about her resurrection she just sat and wrote all that like made it all up she's like and then what if i ended up in jupiter and then i met a bunch of aliens who yeah who actually loved me and fell in love with me and could communicate telepathically learned their language but it was way in the past and i was i had to i had to freeze myself for 10 000 years
01:09:39
Speaker
See, the thing is, she started lying, like started realizing the holes that were in the lie and just kept telling the story until she was pretty sure she covered all of Yeah, no, it was an explosion, but that explosion could tear through space and time and carbonize the air and carbonize the air. So you would think I was dead, but I was actually.
01:10:06
Speaker
On the moon of Jupiter.
01:10:11
Speaker
and I didn't go home because it was 10,000 years ago. She's making this up as she goes. yeah And we had to read like fucking eight pages of it. Yes, we did. And none of it matters ever again because it wasn't real.
01:10:28
Speaker
Those characters, and you we will never meet those aliens because they were made up by a robot. ah Stupid. So Matt. All right. Yeah. Can we move
Omega Flight & Shaman's Dilemma
01:10:39
Speaker
on? So if at first you don't succeed was last issue. And this completes the sentence. If at first you don't succeed.
01:10:48
Speaker
Alpha flight 27. Betrayal. Oh, if at first you don't succeed. Betrayal. Betrayal. that's John Byrne, story and art. Keith Williams, inking assist. And he yanked us, coloring.
01:11:02
Speaker
Rick Parker, lettering. Dennis O'Neill, editor. And John Rutledge, editor-in-chief. Release date, July 2nd, 1985. Cover date, October 1985.
01:11:16
Speaker
Delphine Courtney revels in her victory over Alpha Flight. Heather, the only one still conscious, points out that there are other members they're not accounting for. which was what caused them to lose last time.
01:11:30
Speaker
But Delphine counters, did they not succeed last time? Wasn't the point to kill James McDonald? Real fucking good comeback, dude. ah Yeah, she's got you there. And that's got to cut, too, cause it's yeah because it's also about dead husband.
01:11:45
Speaker
Oh, poor dead husband. No matter, though, they've already accounted for the other members and will be using talisman to contact her father. Back at the office, Shaman helps Aurora heal while Roger and Walter work on finding a mindless humanoid body to transfer Walter's consciousness into.
01:12:04
Speaker
They think they've found one. Pat. it is a who's that Pokemon. Yeah, it's just like it a silhouetted outline of...
01:12:19
Speaker
um A mindless humanoid body. It's the Hulk. It's obviously the Hulk. You can tell from the first fucking second. You're reading a Marvel comic. You know what the Hulk looks like. Oh, Talisman also tells Delphine Courtney, go climb your thumb, creep.
01:12:35
Speaker
yeah I don't know what it means, but I really, really like it. um You know what's funny here is for the big reveal, Delphine had to tear off the James McDonald mask like it was melded to her skin. She had a second one lying around because at the beginning of this issue, she's back to James McDonald.
01:12:58
Speaker
she she like She's like, damn it. I have to get what after to get everybody. Wait.
01:13:05
Speaker
Did he have blue eyes or brown? ah You know what? I'll just, I'll just.
01:13:12
Speaker
So suddenly, Shaman is hit with a wave of psychic pain from his daughter and teleports himself, Walter and Aurora right to the West Edmonton Mall.
01:13:23
Speaker
They find Guardians standing before them, explaining to them that everything's fine and normal, just long enough to snatch the medicine bag off Shaman's side. za he has them stood up like Weekend at Bernie's. Weekend at Bernie's, yeah. it's a All of the unconscious Alpha Flight just like in the distance being held up like scarecrows. And you know if we had added, they probably, she probably had one of them like wave.
01:13:50
Speaker
Yeah.
01:13:55
Speaker
It's just, yeah again, it's just like their limp, unconscious bodies being held up by the members of Beta Flight, like Gamma Flight, Omega Flight, whatever flight. Yeah, yeah. um Courtney, as Guardian, flies away, digging through the pouch, trying to find Smart Alec. Yeah.
01:14:12
Speaker
She like tricks him into revealing where smart. She's like, hey, I forget shaman. Where did smart aleck go again? so oh um Oh, yeah, that's right. he's ah I miniaturized him. He's in my eye. I shrunk him down to the size of the of an action figure and I keep him in my pocket.
01:14:29
Speaker
I completely forgot about that. What a cruel fate. ah ah So she turns the pouch inside out.
01:14:42
Speaker
Yeah. So she she turns it inside out, making like this delicate imagery just pour out and start consuming everything around it, including Aurora and penisless Walter.
01:14:54
Speaker
Omega Flight, seeing this, drop the unconscious bodies of Alpha Flight and run, leaving the rest of the Alphans. You wrote Alphans here, Pat. Why'd you do this? ah Because i've we've already said flight twice in this sentence. If you can't beat them, join them.
01:15:11
Speaker
good ah lean the like Leaving the rest of the offense to be consumed too, Shaman manages to escape with Talisman, telling her she's the only one that can dive into the bag and recover their teammates.
01:15:23
Speaker
He promises her he'll keep her safe. Stop. how How does he know that? he does he He never learns his fucking lessons. Every Every turn, every story turn in all of Alpha Flight, Shaman's like, I'll throw my daughter into it. i know He's such a shitty father. Anything bad happens, he's like, well, I'll just throw my daughter into it.
01:15:47
Speaker
and She's very powerful. but I'll just throw her into it. Hey, you guys stuck down that manhole. ah'll Let me throw my daughter down there for a second.
01:15:59
Speaker
Like, he just keeps putting her in these horrible, horrible situations. And then the other thing he didn't learn, this is his whole origin, is that he promised his wife he'd save her from her illness and couldn't.
01:16:14
Speaker
That's why Callison hates him. And he promised her, like, he keeps promising people shit that he knows he can't do. Stop doing this. He's full of shit, man. anything he's a good not He's a good dude.
01:16:28
Speaker
You're another Walter Lankowski. but Is he a good dude? keeps lying to people.
01:16:35
Speaker
think in like the cosmic sense, he's a good guy. But on a I wouldn't want to be friends with him. he would be He's not coming to my party. He's going to keep throwing you in cosmic voids. And he's like, I promise I'll get you out.
01:16:50
Speaker
She dives in and talks about how weird it is, but recovers the team and sends them back out. Shaman, outside, manages to start pushing the inside bag back into itself.
01:17:01
Speaker
But when Talisman reaches for Shaman's hand to be pulled out, they're zapped, and Elizabeth falls back in, drowning in the mystical energy. Of course. Duh. Obviously. Duh.
01:17:11
Speaker
Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Turns out Snowbird had also heard Elizabeth's psychic call and came rushing only to be immediately held hostage by Courtney as guardian. And then she's just standing there. She's just standing there letting him hold her by the throat. She could crush him.
01:17:31
Speaker
Yeah. She's a goddess. Hey, wait, why Snowbird back already? Didn't she go away? in the Last issue. Right. She got the psychic call. She had to come back.
01:17:42
Speaker
if Oh my god. um and in towns It takes one panel for everybody to be like, oh, I guess you're you're still on Earth.
01:17:52
Speaker
Alright. They're getting ready to snap Snowbird. Delphine Guardian is getting ready to snap Snowbird's neck when Shaman reaches into the mystical energy and instead of pulling Elizabeth out, like a good person, he pulls out a weird magical slime to throw at Courtney and free Snowbird.
01:18:11
Speaker
It is literally like he has a choice. It's like I can save Elizabeth or I can save Snowbird. and he chooses to save Snowbird. He's choosing his job over his family.
01:18:23
Speaker
is Yeah. Pretty hard to miss metaphor. And she's a goddess. If she dies, she just goes back to the goddess god realm or whatever. Like, fuck off, dude.
01:18:37
Speaker
Guardian dashes out of been turned inside and lost the Oh no. compass is all fucked up guardian dashes out of there and michael turns to pull his daughter out of the bag but it's too late the bag has been turned back inside in and she's lost in the void no This is a rough ending, buddy. So, like, it's such a cool cliffhanger, right? Like, i bet they're going to have to go on some big, crazy journey to get Elizabeth back from the pouch dimension.
01:19:09
Speaker
And it's not just going to be like, Look, I know it's not that i I know I keep doing this, but like it's not just going to be some crazy, all powerful being shows up and in two panels pulls her back out and saves her. And there's actually no consequences to this at all. Matt, you're saying obvious things again.
01:19:24
Speaker
i know. Why do I do this? But yeah, yeah, you got to break that habit. I know. Sorry. It's
Madison Jeffries' Dramatic Entrance
01:19:29
Speaker
they wouldn't know writer on Earth. would do that no editor-in-chief would ever demand that happens right you know any editor-in-chief would be like oh no that is you've delivered a you've given a promise to your readers you have to deliver on it because that's what art and entertainment are for like you can't you're so just you're still doing it Matt you're just talking common sense you're just listing common sense things all well I don't want to stop me by yeah you know what makes me really mad about this what's that
01:19:58
Speaker
Fighting Omega Flight was Roger Box's dream. He has done all of this just for a chance at a round with Omega Flight himself as revenge for for what they did to Guardian.
01:20:15
Speaker
Instead, Walter is in his body getting his ass kicked, just getting sucked into a mystic portal. Yeah. hating him yeah more and more each issue. Roger would have kicked ass in this.
01:20:28
Speaker
Yes. And he would have finally gotten some like, Some closure, some validation, some closure. He needs that. He's he still feels guilt over all this. Yeah. ah ah Yeah.
01:20:41
Speaker
Matt, you're going to read. You're going to tell me you're going to read Alpha Flight number 28. But I just got to say this next issue is some of the best and some of the worst we've seen this whole series.
01:20:56
Speaker
Yeah, this is going to be wild. Get ready for Alpha Flight number 28. crossover. Two words, not one.
01:21:06
Speaker
you need Okay. Okay. Sure. John Byrne, words and pictures. Keith Williams, inking assist. he's He's got he's got to get help on the inks. You got to imagine that, like, if we are following the story that we're making up as we go along here, i John Byrne has run out of time. The first two issues here, he definitely was missing deadlines. There were uncolored pages. There's so much detail and so...
01:21:36
Speaker
poorly thought out dialogue that, ay yeah, of course they were like, you're not doing all your own inks anymore. We're going to bring somebody in just to speed things along.
01:21:47
Speaker
These are also probably some of the most poorly drawn. There's some cool imagery, but they're probably the most poorly drawn burn issues we've seen so far. Yeah, sure, sure.
01:21:59
Speaker
N.T. Yankus colors Rick Parker lettering Dennis O'Neill editor and John Wilkes Booth editor in chief release date July 30th 1985 cover date November 1985 Omega flight runs from the Edmonton mall after being defeated by shaman's pouch and apparently the beyonder huh.
01:22:25
Speaker
They bicker about how to continue until a car starts deforming in front of them. Courtney is suddenly terrified. By what? Wonders her crew. By me.
01:22:36
Speaker
Responds Madison fucking Jeffries. So fucking cool. So fucking cool. Because, you know, he's like a scumbag and they just find him hanging out in a mall parking lot like a scumbag would.
01:22:51
Speaker
Yeah. This look of abject terror comes over Delphine Courtney as Guardian's face. Like it is. you soon as she's emotional deforming. Yeah.
01:23:03
Speaker
The emotion on that face makes you say like, oh
Guardian's Death & Jeffries' Fight
01:23:08
Speaker
shit. Omega flight is done. They are fucked. Yes. Even before you know why.
01:23:14
Speaker
flashbacks like no I thought nothing scared you and then you just cut to Madison Jeffrey's face and he's smirking and he looks like goddamn Charles Bronson with a Beatles haircut and he's he's smirking and he goes oh one thing does flashback me hiya Lil Yeah, it's so easy he's smoking a cigarette in my head. He's smoking a cigarette. He's not. He's not actually be. He's no, he's got his hands up like he's a but like he's like he's snapped to get everyone's attention. And then he just shoves them back into his pockets. And the rest of this, he's just while he's kicking fucking ass.
01:23:50
Speaker
He's got his hands just in his pockets. Yeah, he's not to kick ass rules. This is like the best scene. Almost all of Alpha Flight is worth reading for these like five pages. He's angry about the death of Guardian, and he's going to do something about it.
01:24:06
Speaker
With the robot he just made out of a goddamn car, Dine and Lil steps up to fight it, but gets her ass beat. Jeffries, who has affection for her, runs to her to make sure she's okay.
01:24:18
Speaker
He thinks she and Wildchild and possibly Flashback had their minds messed with by Delphine Courtney. And he's here to save everyone. Yeah. Just an extra level of cool. Like he's kicking their asses and then being like, hey, sorry, I had to beat the shit out of you. I won't have to do it again.
01:24:35
Speaker
if i if you stop doing this, well, he's also going to be friends again. Well, he's also like, I'm gonna arrest you. i'm that gonna get i'm gonna I'm gonna arrest you, but yeah i don't want you I don't want to see you guys hurt. you don't This isn't the real you. maybe Maybe it's the real flashback, but you and Wildchild are like good people.
01:24:58
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. The car robot keeps going after Courtney, but her guardian suit is still fucked up from her fight with Shaman. So she throws one of Flashback's future selves in front of her.
Flashback's Mortality Realization
01:25:11
Speaker
It's a evil moment if we didn't know it was 100% stolen. From Alan Moore. Damn it. But yeah, keep going.
01:25:22
Speaker
Sorry. Because he he dies and all of Flashback's other copies disappear except his present self, who is distraught, to say the least, that he just watched his own death.
01:25:34
Speaker
Yeah, we're going to read Captain Britain, um I think, when maybe early next year. Okay. We'll see this happen again. but And we will see, yeah, you'll see the scene this was stolen from.
01:25:49
Speaker
It's well represented here. Like, it's it's it's a cool scene, but it also, like we again, we know it's stolen, so that sucks. Yeah. it's Well, I didn't until you just said that, so I'm much less excited about it now. But again, just they are nailing the look of utter horror on these characters faces. Like he watches his future self die. He knows that in the future, if he ever gets plucked out of his, this timeline, he very well could die in that experience. He has no idea when or where or how could be he even says it could be an hour from now. It could be a year from now. He has no idea.
01:26:26
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeffries vs. Courtney
01:26:31
Speaker
Courtney pleads with Jeffries. She can make him rich. Madison Jeffries doesn't care. He tells her to fuck off and uses his control over machines to make her puke all her robot guts out of her face.
01:26:43
Speaker
So it rolls. It fucking rolls. His hands are in his pockets. He doesn't give a shit. God damn it. Jeffries has the robot watch the rest until the police can arrive and heads into the mall to save Alpha Flight.
01:26:57
Speaker
What he sees is some dumb secret wars to shit. Beyonder saved Talisman and he disappears basically. that Okay, wait, what the fuck? I know. What the fuck?
01:27:09
Speaker
That whole thing, that whole cliffhanger from the last issue that had so much potential, Beyonder just undid it. Yes, entirely.
01:27:22
Speaker
God, I fucking hate
01:27:26
Speaker
I fucking hate Secret Wars 2. Yeah.
01:27:32
Speaker
So who is this guy, Matt? ah The Beyonder? The Bayonder? This is the Secret Wars 2 guy. We'll get to it later. he is We will get so, so deep into this. He's ruining every episode. In like a month or two. But it it it hurts to read shit like this.
01:27:55
Speaker
So beyond or save Talisman, I guess we'll see what happened when we get to Secret Wars
Talisman's Anger & Teleportation
01:28:03
Speaker
2. But for now, Talisman is furious at Shaman and punches him in the face.
01:28:10
Speaker
He broke his promise again. As she rages, her inner power activates and she teleports all of Alpha Flight away from her back to their base. Turns out she grabbed Jeffrey's too because he's there. How? How did she do that? I don't know. how did you know? But anyway, ah she's right. She's absolutely right.
01:28:31
Speaker
And it's like 100%. If he this could be an understandable thing. If he hadn't done this so many times, any one of those incidents in isolation could be understandable. The fact that it's a pattern that he keeps putting her in these horrible situations and like ruining her life and promising shit to to people, making promises he he knows he can't guarantee
01:29:02
Speaker
It's not like he knew he wasn't going to keep the promises, but he knows that he couldn't make the
Internal Discord in Alpha Flight
01:29:10
Speaker
promise. He couldn't. Yeah, he couldn't guarantee this will. This is absolutely I am absolutely going to keep this promise, but he does it anyway because of his fucking ego. He sucks.
01:29:22
Speaker
He's a bad dad. Bad dad. dued Bad dad. Kind of a bad guy and bad dad.
01:29:29
Speaker
Heather calls a timeout because everything is so crazy and goes to take a bath. She's a good boss. She's a good boss. She understands the importance of taking time off. Also nude. Nude.
01:29:43
Speaker
Yes, of course, nude. She's taking a bath. yeah Yeah. Well, we see her in the bath, I guess is my point. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. We do see her nude. But she's pulled back into the chaos when the lights go out.
01:29:54
Speaker
She storms into Roger's lab only to find them doing some crazy experiment to retrieve that mysterious body from another dimension for Walter. They're literally using a fishing pole to pull it out. Yes, it is a literal. They they are. They call it. a They call it going fishing. It looks like a fishing pole.
01:30:14
Speaker
It's so the art reference for using it as somebody trying to reel in a large fish. Yes, it is. Again, it's. The Madison Jeffries part of this issue was so fucking cool.
01:30:26
Speaker
Everything else in this issue is the dumbest shit we've read so far. This is also... Walter is there in the box body. This is not something he should be doing. The last two times he's tried to do anything like this. He was possessed by a great beast and then accidentally summoned a super scroll that murdered five people.
01:30:52
Speaker
He's just a fucking, he's an, this is the thing. All of alpha flight are just guided by their ego at all times. And again, John Byrne thinks that's heroic.
01:31:05
Speaker
Doesn't know that. yeah Yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, this is just the natural thing to do. This is what heroes do. They they would do the most vain thing at any given time to prove themselves important.
01:31:20
Speaker
Heather. Yeah. our ah Our anchor to the ground here demands they stop. Yeah. But. It's too late. They send Walter's soul through the fishing line and Roger jumps back into box.
Hulk's Appearance & Byrne's Exit
01:31:34
Speaker
A second later, the Hulk appears out of the dimensional portal and chops a hole into boxes shoulder to be continued. Okay. Okay. it's It's we kind of knew that was coming. yeah Yeah. That's the end of John Byrne on Alpha Flight.
01:31:52
Speaker
That's the last issue. That is it. It's also so weird. Denny O'Neill's last issue as editor.
Hulk's Dimensional Journey
01:32:02
Speaker
Oh, does he leave Marvel at this time or he just leaves Alpha Flight?
01:32:05
Speaker
You know, I don't know the answer to that. I know leaves Alpha Flight, but you should if you're going to talk about it. Oh, yeah.
01:32:19
Speaker
And I should know what town he's living in at the time. i should know what. yeah Right. What's his what's his marriage like at this time? Things going OK?
01:32:31
Speaker
How's his mother?
01:32:34
Speaker
um Matt. Yeah. I'm tired of goofing around. Yeah. You've been puffy faffing all day. i know. And through this whole recording. Yeah.
01:32:45
Speaker
So, you know what I'm going to just, I'm just going to steamroll over all the stuff that you're about to say to me, all the important things you think you have to say. And I'm going to read you. Here's what I think. Incredible Hulk number 313, Hook, Line, and Sinker.
01:33:04
Speaker
This is the incredible This one doesn't fit into the sentence because we're switching to incredible Hulk. Yeah, this is an incredible Hulk issue. It's written by stories by Bill Mantlo, artists by Mike Mignola and Gary Taliok.
01:33:17
Speaker
Taliok. Taliok. Letters, Jim Novak. Colors, Bob Sharon. Editor, Carl Potts. And editor-in-chief, William Cushing?
01:33:30
Speaker
Huh. Huh. Okay. Release date, August 6th, 1985. Cover date, November 1985. Okay, the first two-thirds of this issue is just the Hulk running and smashing his way through a bunch of psychedelic art while the narrator explains where he is. Essentially...
01:33:47
Speaker
Doctor Strange tried to separate Bruce Banner from the Hulk, which resulted in the full loss of Banner's consciousness, which he was fine with because he wanted to die. He wanted to die. Strange then banished the Hulk to the interdimensional crossroads, sort of a stopover for all of reality with portals ah to infinite other dimensions.
01:34:06
Speaker
Oh, boy. But it's it's the art doesn't really match the text at all because it is it really is just a summary of what's been happening in Hulk to this point. Yeah. And so to to provide some visual, it's just the Hulk in front of, I don't know, 10, 15 different types of psychedelic backgrounds. Just punching angry. Yeah. Punching and punching like weird trolls and stuff.
01:34:35
Speaker
But Strange didn't actually separate Bruce Banner's consciousness from the Hulk. That's impossible. He just diminished his consciousness to an undetectable level.
Walter's Misunderstanding & Heroism Debate
01:34:44
Speaker
So when a giant red fishing line attaches itself to Hulk and transfers Walter Lankowski's consciousness into it, Banner is finally actually separated from Hulk, hovering there in astral form.
01:34:59
Speaker
Walter and bru Bruce explain their whole deal to each other, and Bruce says, hey, just take the Hulk. It's fine. Walter seems to have complete control. And if Banner is fully discorporated, maybe he can finally die.
01:35:11
Speaker
Finally. But Walt. Yeah. Just up to this point. I know you get annoyed by the Hulk stuff. I thought this was so cool. And we keep missing the actual Hulk issues where this stuff happens. But at least we get a recap here of just this like. It's almost like a a tragedy.
01:35:30
Speaker
Bruce Banner was basically like, yeah hey, can you kill me? Can you please kill me? Because I'm tired of living. And Doctor Strange was like, I'll do my best. He thought that he killed the Bruce Banner side, banished the Hulk to a inter-dimensions, and...
01:35:49
Speaker
it turns out the Hulk is still alive. e Bruce Banner is still alive in there, just watching what's going on He cannot take control back. And then suddenly Walter Lankowski pops in. And I think the thing that we don't mention here is that Dr. Strange also put like a certain type of magic in that if the Hulk...
01:36:11
Speaker
finds dissatisfaction with the dimension he finds himself in when he's jumping through portals he is immediately drawn back to the crossroads so he can just try jumping through a different portal so it's not meant to kill hulk it's meant to give the hulk like the opportunity to find a planet that understands him or a dimension that understands him right it's kind of It's kind of pretty.
01:36:36
Speaker
kind Yeah. yeah i just i just like I just care so little about these characters and and the dialogue. The way it's written is so poor. It's just like so wordy and so...
01:36:49
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. It's Bill Mantlo. Fistedly written. um But here's another thing. I think Bill Mantlo may also kind of understand Walter Lankowski better than John Byrne did because Walter completely misses the point here.
01:37:04
Speaker
And that's textual. That's not meta texture. That's not us. editorializing that is the point of this story Walter misses the point yes Banner he assumes is just being heroic offering his own life up to save Walt's that's what makes him a hero so Walter understands now to be a hero in this situation he should actually sacrifice himself and let Banner keep the Hulk's body it's just too you fucking idiot it's just two egotistical idiots arguing over who's the bigger hero
01:37:38
Speaker
Well, no, that's... Bruce Banner's point isn't actually like, I'm doing this to be a hero. Bruce Banner is saying, i want to die. no The good side effect here is you taking over the Hulk means that since you have complete control, since you're not just like filled with rage, you could actually use the Hulk's strength for good. Why don't you take this body, go back out into the world? But that's...
01:38:06
Speaker
and We both get, well, this is a win-win situation because I finally die. But that's Banner also being a martyr, right? Like the only way for me to be, to meet for me to solve the Hulk for the world is if I die.
01:38:21
Speaker
It's two people trying to be martyrs at each other. ah Sure. But I think the Hulk is at least somewhat justified here where Walter's just like, oh, if he's doing it, that must be the hero thing to do. So let me do it, actually. So I'm the hero. Right, right. Yeah. I mean, I think Walter's the worst guy here, but.
01:38:42
Speaker
Banner tries to explain, like, no, I can't control him. You can. i will kill people if you return me to his body. But Walter's not listening. And leaves the Hulk's body, sending his soul into the ether.
01:38:56
Speaker
Tired from all the soul swapping, Hulk is finally weak enough to be reeled in from the crossroads by Alpha Flight. A bunch of fucking idiots. But that just makes him mad again. And we all know what happens when Hulk gets mad.
01:39:12
Speaker
To be continued.
01:39:17
Speaker
I think so. You and I have two very contrasting notes here at the end of our our notes. Yours, I believe, is that sucked. And mine is that was like cosmically funny.
01:39:30
Speaker
I think this is um probably him. The moment that Walter is like. Like, no I should sacrifice myself because you're actually the true hero. That is funny and good.
01:39:47
Speaker
The rest of this issue sucked so much ass. ah Banner sitting there being like, no, you fucking idiot. Stop. Walter being like, I hear you. I hear what you're saying.
01:40:01
Speaker
You're not going to trick me. yeah It's the winking thing. It's the, oh, so you're saying, ah don't let you take over the Hulk's body. Wink, wink, wink, wink, wink. he's like yes he must be like don't don't you take the hulk's body okay i'll take the hulk's body wink wink wink no no and stop we can do do it in his head he must be thinking like is all the the misdirection part of the hero thing should i be doing that too
01:40:34
Speaker
um yeah uh matt yeah Let's wrap things up here. you Let's get to our last. i want i want to I want to talk about two other things actually real quick. is okay Number one, they talk about at some point, Walter says is looking at the Hulk and he's like, it does he has the physicality to keep Aurora happy.
01:40:59
Speaker
Can the Hulk fuck?
01:41:03
Speaker
oh
01:41:05
Speaker
I would imagine he has a son. yeah i i don't know if he could bone down with a human though that seems like it would be dangerous very dangerous right other thing yeah um john i'm sorry yeah mutant menace pot at gmail.com can the whole hu fuck but first remember to say your prayers for ah the laptop and whatever the other thing i said well you should be doing that whether you email or not Okay, so um ah John Byrne in like the last issue or in the issue that Walter transferred into Box's body, Box's robot body, he's like, oh, I feel like a 57 Buick.
01:41:50
Speaker
Yes. And then fucking to Mantlo here in Bill Mantlo's comic straight up steals that line.
01:42:00
Speaker
He says it word word. He says it word for word. And he's like, I woke up in a body. It felt like i fifth felt like a 57 Buick. Stop it. but I do think it's very Walter to have said that before and been like, hu it's pretty good. I'm going to keep saying it. All right. All right. Fair enough. I yeah i retract. That is true. And I did say Bill Mantlo does seem to understand Walter better than Byrne does. So i you all right. and All right. I retract. You're right.
01:42:33
Speaker
All right, Matt, should we, uh, should we wrap things up here with our last awful flight or sorry, No, it our last Alpha Flight issue, our last Alpha Flight issue of the episode, our first awful flight issue.
Bill Mantlo's Fresh Start with Alpha Flight
01:42:48
Speaker
Yes.
01:42:50
Speaker
Awful flight number 29, Cut, Bait, and Run. Bait, and Run. Bill Maitlow writer Mike Mignola and Jerry Talamac artists. Talawak. Talioke. Talioke.
01:43:05
Speaker
Jim Novak, letterer, Bob Sharon, colorist, Carl Potts, editor, and John Dillinger, editor-in-chief. Did you... Wild.
01:43:15
Speaker
That's... why would they let him do that?
01:43:20
Speaker
Why would they let him be that editor-in-chief of Marvel? Is it because of what he did? They were like, this qualifies you.
01:43:32
Speaker
Everybody deserves a second chance. it was ah it It was a prison release program.
01:43:45
Speaker
Release date September 3rd, 1985. Cover date December 1985. That's my first Christmas man. Oh, wow. Do you remember it? Did you get this issue? No. i No.
01:43:56
Speaker
this was This was two months old by then. parents wouldn't have bought stale, awful flights.
01:44:05
Speaker
Understandably, the Hulk is pissed for being yanked back from the void of the crossroads, and he instantly punches a hole through box. Yeah. everything isn't Everything is in turmoil as the Hulk starts smashing everything and everyone in sight.
01:44:22
Speaker
Roger worries that the damage to the box robot is going to affect his physical body, And Aurora is distraught over the loss of Walter. They're like, they're like he punched right through you. And he's like, no, i no guys, I'm not really part of it.
01:44:36
Speaker
But just my mind is me and body are both fused with it. so But i'm you guys are wrong. But you guys are wrong. I'm not part of it. He's wrong.
Hulk's Chaos in Vancouver
01:44:46
Speaker
They established this five, ten issues ago that Roger box inside of this robot, like phasing inside the robot meant that he was putting his physical body at risk. yeah If the robot loses an arm, he's probably also losing an arm. right You're telling me Bill Mantlo misunderstood something and then wrote it as was the, the cannon.
01:45:09
Speaker
Yeah, you're right. You're right.
01:45:12
Speaker
Puck keeps Hulk distracted for everyone. While Heather tries to convince shaman to set aside his self doubt and help. But when Shaman reaches into his medicine pouch, his hand comes out empty.
01:45:24
Speaker
Hulk collapses a pile of rubble onto a Puck and makes his way outside. All he wants to do is flee, but Heather jumps on his back. hu
01:45:34
Speaker
misguided i don't think she should she should have just she probably shouldn't know and plenty of other alpha flight guys are just sitting around and staring yes they're fucking everybody else is just too sad to do anything puck by himself is taking care of the hulk aurora and north star are crying heather is even like hey guys could i get some help and north star's like we're crying over here but Let us be.
01:46:04
Speaker
sos and Instantly, fucking Bill Mantlo has Heather named Delphine Courtney's thing as Dark Guardian. Fucking comic book ass comic book brain. He's like, well, he has to have its own villain name. It can't be Delphine Courtney. It is a little confusing. It is, but...
01:46:27
Speaker
But Dark Guardian isn't clarifying. That she just immediately is like, and then when Dark Guardian attacked us yesterday, Stop it. Also, she's dead. You don't need to rename her at this point. Just kind of terminal comic book writer brain.
01:46:46
Speaker
Hulk shakes off Heather and a revived Puck leaps away into the air, leaving Alpha Flight to pick up the pieces. Oh boy. North star tries to comfort Aurora over Walter's death. And she notices he is crying too.
01:47:02
Speaker
Jeffrey's patches up box, allowing Roger to phase out of it. The team regroups and decides to go after the Hulk before he destroys Vancouver. But shaman stays behind because his magic is gone.
01:47:15
Speaker
um Box is worried about going because he could be more of a cripple than he is now. Oh, my God. Then again, it was your husband, Guardian, who made a pitiful paraplegic feel like he had something more to offer. something to offer Jesus Christ, Bill Manlow, every time? Immediately. Every time. The first time you have a person in a wheelchair in your hand. in this in this new series you're writing. Every fucking time. You can't help yourself.
01:47:45
Speaker
It's an obsession. It's fucking J.K. Rowling and f trans people. It is like you can't stop thinking about how much you hate this group of people. its it's It really is unbelievable. And it was shocking.
01:48:01
Speaker
Yeah. Because that is not how Roger Box has talked up to this point at all. Even a little bit. God, it drives me so fucking crazy.
01:48:15
Speaker
So Alpha Flight finds Hulk in the middle of Vancouver, smashing it up because it's not a desert. He wants to be in the desert. He likes a desert. It's not a desert. He'll make it one. And he can't just jump away and find a desert.
01:48:29
Speaker
They finally start using teamwork and begin to get the upper hand. But when North Star and Aurora touch, their powers disappear. Apparently a side effect from Walter's experiments. Okay, all right fine. that's ah That's a fine twist.
Power Failures & Consequences
01:48:44
Speaker
I was wondering if this was ever going to come back.
01:48:50
Speaker
But here we go. Yes, they now, instead of increasing their power when they touch, they completely lose their powers temporarily. And of course, Hulk has to call Puck a midget during this fight.
01:49:02
Speaker
Right. Which at the time I think was still socially acceptable. Okay. All right. All right. Fair enough. All right. All right. like Well, Grant. Come on, man. Well, Grant Bill, man. Well, I mean, but they never used it in the right. Like John Burton never used that fucking term.
01:49:16
Speaker
I'm not excusing it. Just saying i don't think it was. I'm channeling my inner ah weapon Jason here. and i i don't think people thought of it as offensive. at the time Okay.
01:49:28
Speaker
The Hulk knocks them out. Of course, smashes up Puck and Box and begins to descend on Heather when Snowbird suddenly appears and takes the form of Sasquatch. yeah They fight for a minute until Hulk runs away again. She busts out the the technically he was created in Canada, so that makes him a Canadian creature.
01:49:51
Speaker
Why wouldn't you why wouldn't you turn into Wendigo, by the way, a creature that has. yeah That is specific to Canada and has ah pretty effectively beaten the Hulk before. Yeah, yeah.
01:50:06
Speaker
They fight for a minute until Hulk runs away again. Snowbird pursues until Hulk reaches the U.S. border and realizes it's not her problem anymore. So she turns around. Very heroic, Snowbird.
01:50:19
Speaker
She also, Hulk sees her and he goes, i know who you are. And then Snowbird starts explaining literally everything that happened over the Tannerac arc.
01:50:31
Speaker
Hulk, the conversation ends when Hulk says, Hulk does not understand. Hulk does not care. you tried to do it.
01:50:44
Speaker
Oh, God. And remember, she hates leaving Canada, so. Yeah. Heather and Puck are talking about the destruction and Heather offhandedly mentions giving up, which triggers a big, long speech from Snowbird about teamwork and purpose and stuff. what the fuck? Then it's Snowbird. Gary.
01:51:02
Speaker
Then Gary Cody shows up. Okay. he tells them the department H is refunded and the team can rejoin the government.
Department H's Return & Team Dynamics
01:51:10
Speaker
They all cheer the end. Literally. They all start cheering.
01:51:15
Speaker
Yes, they like like when a a TV show ends with all the characters high-fiving each other. And, you know, North Star and Aurora are hugging. Like, what happened to them being in a fight with each other? like And why why is North Star so excited about Alpha Flight getting back together? He fucking hates Alpha Flight.
01:51:35
Speaker
This is... yeah Not only are these are these mischaracterizations, like Snowbird would never give a speech like that. Northstar would never act like this. Aurora wouldn't be grasping Northstar in this way.
01:51:48
Speaker
Heather would never be like, oh I should just give up. Like none of this is within character. But yeah yeah he's also conceptually undoing the team from step fucking one.
01:52:01
Speaker
Already he has Roger Box acting crazy. Right. He's like, he's like, he's like, this could kill me, but I don't care. I love the thrill of being in my box robot. Like, it's very, he's being very weird. All of sudden, he's an adrenaline junkie. Yes. Shaman lost his powers because he doesn't believe in himself anymore.
01:52:22
Speaker
Snowbird immediately unretires. Gary Cody and the government returns. Heather starts doubting her leadership skills. Like, immediately, everything that Byrne was building, but Bill Mantlo starts reversing.
01:52:39
Speaker
Yeah. It'd be almost like he makes Madison Jeffries like some simpering wimp and north Star and Aurora not mutants anymore and ah youter not dare ah average sized. Like he just like undoing basic tenets of these characters.
01:52:57
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. If we can transition into final thoughts a little bit, I think... the last few issues of the burn arc had preparations for bill mantlow in them i think that like it's clear that the two of them had some thoughts that's where he gets his creative kibitzing credit but the two of them had some thoughts just on how he wanted to pick up alpha flight and how john burn could lead it leave it off and to me it was here are the members i want to work with like
01:53:28
Speaker
get rid of these characters make sure these characters are together they should be an actual team not going off on their own little adventures because that's a pretty complex thing to deal with bill mantlow is not a complex writer and they're not traumatized enough let's put them through a bunch more shit let's like really stick their faces in the mud because yeah i like to work with characters that are miserable and john byrne kind of does that to close it all out i'm glad that he got a second battle with Omega flight. I think that that was like his strongest arc. Yeah. i agreed.
01:54:06
Speaker
But yeah, this is, this does not bode well for the future of
Mantlo's Impact on Alpha Flight
01:54:11
Speaker
alpha flight. No. Yeah. I mean, so I think you're right that burn was setting some of this stuff up, but then there's just stuff that burn, if Mantlo had discussed some of this stuff with burn, burn would be like, what? No, Roger box is not,
01:54:26
Speaker
a weird adrenaline junkie, manic, depressive or whatever. Like he's in a manic state of depression. um And like Shaman losing his powers. Fine. I can kind of get that, but still it's, you know, snowbird unretiring. Then what was the point of her retiring? What was the point of that whole, it it makes her arc as a character thus far from the beginning till now, stop making sense. Nothing about her makes sense anymore. She's a blank slate now.
01:54:57
Speaker
Right. She's just power. She's just character with powers. Yeah, exactly. She doesn't everything about her in that one speech. Everything we know about Snowbird gone.
01:55:08
Speaker
And then, yeah, fine. Gary Cody and the government returning that undoes a lot of really cool things, which is Alpha Flight being independent. Like that was ah great one of the cooler aspects now. Yes.
01:55:19
Speaker
And then and then we weakening Heather as a leader sucks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is I mean, kind of going to come naturally because she's a woman in a, in a position of authority. Right. Right. Yeah. They got to take shots.
01:55:38
Speaker
So this is why, this is why I need, this is why I need you to read some more Bill Manlow. Cause you really have to see how far it falls before we walk away from alpha flight. It's, it's, it's, it gets worse from here.
01:55:51
Speaker
We're going to take a little break, though. Yes. We got some other bad comics to read in the meantime. And some good ones.
Nostalgia: Choose Your Own Adventure Books
01:55:59
Speaker
I bet i know we could you i bring the energy back up around here, Matt. Nothing could bring my energy back up. Oh.
01:56:07
Speaker
Okay.
01:56:19
Speaker
okay There he is. That's right. oh i Matt, it's time for Pat's Steals and Deals. Can you believe it? Give me a steal. Give me a deal.
01:56:31
Speaker
We're already at the end of this episode. We we covered seven issues of comics, Matt. I miss them. No, I don't. I hated these issues. No, it's not true. now it's and It's not true. Okay. All right. Let's keep going. Now it's time to talk about another type of book. Are you ready for fantastic adventures?
01:56:51
Speaker
The choice is yours. Choose your own adventure here at Laster Books that go beyond reading to real challenge and adventure. Books in which you choose the endings, you make the decisions, you shape the direction the stories turn, you become the hero. Get into the action now, available wherever books are sold. Join the Choose Your Own Adventure fan club.
01:57:14
Speaker
From Bantam Books. This is the Bantam Books. This is the start of the Bantam Books. Choose your own adventure stories. Choose your own adventure stories. Yeah. um Which is trademarked, by the way. Choose your own adventure. um Yeah, yeah.
01:57:26
Speaker
Really cool stuff. and the Absolute staple of our childhoods, I know. i don't know if kids still get into these, but it was ah it was incredible. And here they are advertising in comic books in black and white.
01:57:38
Speaker
Yeah, um it's interesting. Yeah, I think choose your own adventure books were a really interesting piece of culture. um I think they kind of they're they're interesting. and they They actually like they had a big impact on video games, right? Like ah adventure games.
01:57:58
Speaker
but yeah yeah the savior game plug because i mean me and pushing approaches everyone say um what what nothing sorry i coughed uh the adventure game genre came from like this choose your own adventure books in dnd right like these are the two things that they these are the kind of things that they were kind of trying to replicate when they started making adventure games and Yeah. and these are just if then statements, right? yeah If you want to do this, then go to this page. But if you want to do this, then go to this page. And that's also the the basis of computer programming. yeah I was able to, when I was a kid in computer programming class, write my own choose your own adventure books because I was so inspired by these. These were so and the art here is incredible. It takes up half the ad. It is
01:58:51
Speaker
I guess it's supposed to be ah some sort of space wizard because he's surrounded by spaceships taking off. But he looks like a vampire. He looks like a Dracula, but with like a big orb in the middle of his head. Well, mixing magic and space stuff was super popular in the mid 80s.
01:59:08
Speaker
Yes, I absolutely believe that. um So. Yeah, i the only real what what what's your what are your memories of choose your own adventure books?
01:59:20
Speaker
ah You know, now that you say it, Matt, ah very sparse. yeah I remember i loved them. I had a ton of them. And I used to like reread them over and over again and make different decisions to to get every piece of it. I remember getting really into how they worked so that I could try to make my own. I don't remember a single plot or decision. that i made i I don't think I had any from the choose your own Bantam books, choose your own adventure series. I had an Indiana Jones one.
01:59:52
Speaker
Oh, you got the knockoffs. And I had a Super Mario one. I was really into licensed stuff as a kid. Like, if it had... Fucking shill. Like, I wanted... wasn't just going to buy a book. I was going to buy a book about the X-Men. Or a book about the video game that I played. wasn't just going to buy...
02:00:14
Speaker
I wasn't even just going to buy a video game. I was going to be able buy a video game about a movie I watched. I was really into licensed properties as a kid. I think all kids are to a extent, but maybe me a little more than. i Honestly, I still have the t-shirts I own are Batman shirts, right?
02:00:31
Speaker
And i I remember doing them so badly because I was like, I i kept going to the wrong. i think it was probably ADHD, right? Like I would go to the wrong page. I would forget what page I was supposed to be on. I would lose track of what decisions I had made. And then i sometimes i I remember at one time getting frustrated and just being like, I'm just going to read through. I'm just going to read it page You're just going to read read it in page order. Yeah.
02:00:58
Speaker
um I wish I had been more like you about it because I think I would have found them fascinating had I given them a real had i really given them my attention yeah yeah it's a it's a neat little logic logic puzzle sort of ah one interesting little fact that I didn't know about Bantam books at this time they were located at 666 5th Avenue interesting yeah Badass.
Choose Your Own Adventure Influence on Gaming
02:01:29
Speaker
I... okay deal. Bring me all the... but Bring me all the choose-your-own-adventure books. Bring them to me, Patrick. you'll You can finally read one, Matt.
02:01:39
Speaker
ah He's got an eye out. Stuff that could buy out. If you had time machine that you would like to try out. It can feel sealed.
02:01:54
Speaker
Folks, folks, you made it. You made it. You made it here to the end of the episode where we say yeah a bunch of stuff. And I got to say some stuff.
02:02:05
Speaker
Number one please. Follow us ah wherever, you know, YouTube, Instagram, Instagram. Those are the Those are the big ones. Join our Discord. There will be a link to the Discord in the show notes. You can join us on Patreon. Patreon.com slash Uten Menace. Yeah. There's a free access.
02:02:32
Speaker
Or pay whatever you want. Yes. as little as a dollar ah per month to get bonus content. We love bonus content. If you love us, and there's a bunch coming. If this is entertaining to you, feel it would, it would help us out a lot for you to just give us ah a dollar fucking month or tell somebody about it.
02:02:54
Speaker
Right. If you're, if yes if that's, if that's prohibitive to you or you're not like, big on spending. You're not Patreon guy. I'm not a Patreon guy. might not be a pattheon yeah You might not be a Patreon guy. Just tell somebody about it. Over your dining room table tonight at dinner.
02:03:13
Speaker
That's right. Big thank you to Krills Wilson ah for the music and Julia Selle for the voice of Trish Tilby. Pat, I think that leaves only for us to say
02:03:29
Speaker
The thing that we say at the end of every episode. Our famous catchphrase. Everyone knows it. And go I'll say it right now. Go ahead. Remember, folks. Remind me to be impressed every time I visit you in the hospital.
02:03:44
Speaker
That's right. And as always, I've been soldiering along with my heart held together by bailing wire and spit.