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14 ways to make Edmonton safer for all
69 Plays3 years ago
Rob Houle and Irfan Chaudhry were both a part of a task force started by the city of Edmonton as a reaction to wide-scale calls to start fixing the problem of racist, violent policing last summer. The task force's report has been submitted to council. We talk with Rob and Irfan about the report's findings, recommendations and how the only thing that really matters in the next municipal election is what a candidate is willing to do on the police budget.
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Transcript
Introduction to The Progress Report and Alberta Advantage
00:00:00
Speaker
Hey folks, you're listening to The Progress Report on the Harbinger Media Network, and just a quick message before we get into the show. We're one of several very good and very excellent left-wing podcasts on Harbinger, and a new episode on the network that I want to recommend is the latest from the fine folks at the Alberta Advantage, and a crucial bit of myth puncturing that they're doing on the National Energy Program. You may have heard that the National Energy Program may have
00:00:25
Speaker
decimated Alberta, and it definitely has become central to a bunch of bullshit political mythology here, but turns out that's just a crock of shit. And that's the kind of content you'll get at Harbinger. We're challenging corporate and liberal media dominance with a political point of view that you will not find anywhere else. Get access to exclusive shows and other supporter-only content at harbingermediainetwork.com. Now, on to the show.
Introducing Community Safety and Wellbeing Task Force
00:01:02
Speaker
Friends and enemies, welcome to The Progress Report. I am your host Duncan Kinney. We're recording today here in Amiskwitchi, Wisconsin, otherwise known as Edmonton, Alberta, here in Treaty 6 territory. And we have a very special episode today. Joining us are two members of the Community Safety and Wellbeing Task Force. Just submitted their report to the Edmonton City Council about what exactly is to be done about policing in Alberta, or sorry, in Edmonton.
00:01:29
Speaker
And the two folks joining us today are Erfan Chowdhury and Robert Hul. Not only was Erfan on this task force, but Erfan is a director with the Office of Human Rights, Diversity, and Equity at McEwen University, as well as a frequent media commentator on police crime issues, as well as hate groups. And Robert Hul, who's been on the pod before, you should really go listen to that episode, it's very good. He's a reader, a writer, a researcher, a historian, I assume you're also a reader as well, Rob. I do sometimes.
00:01:59
Speaker
from time to time, as well as a frequent commentator on police issues. He's from Swan River First Nation in Treaty 8, has worked in Treaty 6 for a number of years and is married into Treaty 7. It's really hitting the trifecta of Alberta treaties. Irfan and Rob, welcome to the pod. Thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here.
Background and Creation of the Task Force
00:02:19
Speaker
So yeah, we're fresh off the heels of the Edmonton city council accepting, you know, the task forces report. Uh, I think it's probably worth just giving a bit of context for what this task force was and why it was created, but it, this was the group that was created by Edmonton city council as a response to the like mass protests and the calls for defunding the police. And I think 140 some people who came to speak at council kind of back last summer.
00:02:50
Speaker
Uh, you know, this is also a response to, you know, more than 13,000 people emailing their counselors, demanding that the Edmonton police PD fund that that money be spent on community services and in the community. This, this was their attempt to kind of involve the community, give some recommendations of what should be done. And this report has now been completed, submitted, submitted to councils, been covered in the media quite extensively. And just yesterday on Tuesday, um, you know, the task force presented their findings and their recommendations.
Addressing Systemic Racism and Community Safety
00:03:20
Speaker
And it's a really good report. You should read it. They outlined 14 areas where the police in the city can start addressing and fixing systemic racism inequality right now. And I just want to take before I get Rob and Irfan to start talking about the report, there is a quote
00:03:36
Speaker
that I think is worth highlighting just off the top from the from the forward, which is that, quote, as a city, we are flying blind when it comes to community safety, especially on race related data about interactions the police, peace and bylaw officers have with the public. This negligence must be addressed.
00:03:54
Speaker
And so, both of you essentially took most of the day off yesterday to present this report to council. I think we can start off with just your general impressions of kind of city council's reaction to the report as well as the kind of action they took. Yeah, I can start. I think the conversation at council
00:04:21
Speaker
Unfolded the way that I kind of anticipated. I was trying to give some sense to the other task force members that it wasn't going to be by by all counselors wasn't going to be received as warmly as you one would hope so.
00:04:38
Speaker
In the end, I think there was some very tough conversations. I think there's some very tough questions. I think there was some great back and forth between task force members and the counselors. And I think ultimately with council embracing the recommendations, a step forward in the right direction, I think a little disappointed in the 14th recommendation that ultimately was not
00:05:05
Speaker
fully embraced, but I'm sure we'll get to that later on in the pod.
Challenges Faced by the Task Force
00:05:11
Speaker
Yeah, I think based on my kind of reflection,
00:05:17
Speaker
I think, you know, I agree with Rob, right? I think it was what it was, what we expected it to be. I think what was interesting for me is, you know, first, I just want to give a huge shout out to the chair of our task force because I thought she did a phenomenal job overall trying to navigate some of the questions which, you know, when you look into some of the questions being posed by some of the Councillors, I think the intention
00:05:41
Speaker
underlying intention sometimes looking to see where or how this report might be discredited for various reasons. It kind of showed the level of preparation I think us as a task force had and we're able to forecast I think a number of these considerations even
00:05:58
Speaker
during some of our task force meetings. And I think that speaks to someone like Rob, for example, or someone like myself who have an understanding of the systems to make sure that we aren't going to be systematically and systemically silenced.
00:06:13
Speaker
And so I think when I observed some of the questions that came up, some more subtle than others, if we kind of put it lightly. But I think we were able to navigate some of those questions. And again, 13 out of 14, 90 day report back, it does give tangible outcomes. But for me, and I don't want to put words in Rob's mouth, but I think for me, after the 90 days is what's going to be really integral in terms of what any follow up looks like.
00:06:43
Speaker
Totally agree that it's nice to have that 90 day kind of sprint start, but I think it's important that once we, and I know that one of the counselors didn't appreciate it, but we made reference to the upcoming election in the report. But again, that's where
Impact of Municipal Elections on Recommendations
00:07:01
Speaker
kind of the proof will be in the commitment is when new counselors or incumbents enter the election cycle, either get elected or reelected and whether or not they're still fully committed to the recommendations or whether or not we can actually start to see some systemic change and like Irfan, shout out to Dr. Trimby, she emailed me last night and I think we were happy with the way the discussion went and
00:07:28
Speaker
the way that she was able to handle some of the counselors, so hats off to her as well.
00:07:34
Speaker
I spent a good chunk of yesterday watching, you know, council proceedings, which is not something I make a habit of, but I think, you know, when we start talking about policing, when we start talking about this report and, you know, the hundreds of millions of dollars we spend on it, I sit up and I take the time out of my day to pay attention. And here are my notes. So, like, I definitely noticed that, like, Councillor Sarah Hamilton, Mike Nickel, Tim Cartmel, John Zadok definitely seemed to be the most hostile to the report's kind of findings and recommendations.
00:08:01
Speaker
uh, you know, Sarah Hamilton seemed to be concerned that not only did you, did you not speak to businesses, but that there was like the final paragraph in the final page, like dare to consider the political realities in which this report is received. Like there is an election, a municipal election, literally like six months away, the next council that's elected, like your biggest recommendation is to, is to freeze funding and divert that funding into community supports. Like,
00:08:28
Speaker
That's a budget decision. That budget process is going to happen pretty much a month after everyone gets elected. I thought that was funny. John's very concerned that the task force didn't speak with the police union president.
00:08:44
Speaker
Um, which I sounded from Annette Trimby's thing is that like, uh, yeah, we tried. They never got back
Political and Public Reactions to the Report
00:08:51
Speaker
to us. I don't know. Um, you know, Mike Nickel relaying unconfirmed stories of lawlessness in downtown Edmonton, which essentially the police are kind of like reifying right now. They're just right before this, uh, this podcast is being recorded. The Edmonton police are putting out press releases and doing
00:09:07
Speaker
press conferences about essentially just that. They're doing selective stat pulling on crime in certain areas. Mike Nichol kept talking about the mechanics of fixing poverty and racism as if there was some
00:09:27
Speaker
lever you could pull to fix it, which is a lever. I mean, there is, but he's simply not interested in pulling it. And then finally, I think it's the biggest note of the day is that Don Iveson is like, well, you know, a lot of these are future council decisions and I am out of here. So we can't tie the hands of future councils. I think was a phrase I heard him say a few times. So
00:09:52
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, for me, you know, I'm, you know, really cognizant of, you know, again, all of us are very cognizant of, you know, this being a municipal year. And I was kind of taken aback, I think a little bit around, you know, the questioning, you know, how
00:10:09
Speaker
Why would you include reference in a very general sense? You know what I mean in the report around, you know, how there needs to be continuity with this. Like, you know, it was like almost like how dare you consider the political climate in the context of the report you've been assigned to write on behalf of city council. And I thought I thought that was a bit of a, you know, again, politics at play, of course, because it is a municipal year, right? Election year. We're not naive to that.
00:10:35
Speaker
But I think that to me was really interesting to kind of just see where people were definitely kind of highlighting, you know, where they might be standing on some of these issues as they get prepared to to campaign. Right. It's no surprise, you know, Mike Nichol is taking the approach he is taking vying for the top spot on city council. And I don't know if you caught, you know, the way he framed this decision on Twitter. Very, very misleading in terms of framing it in one way that wasn't framed at all in the in the
00:11:04
Speaker
in the overall dialogue and discussion that we spent almost the full day convening around.
Importance of Sustained Commitment and Implementation
00:11:10
Speaker
But I think, again, as a task force, these are things we started talking about the municipal election, like probably our first or second meeting, and said, hey, team, we need to be sure we're mindful of this because this will likely impact where and how far our recommendations go. And again, not to single out any specific task members. I think everyone
00:11:32
Speaker
brought really, really unique traits to the table that provided us really good lenses to talk about these things. But again, I just wanna go back when we have a chair who has had previous experience in deputy minister or assistant deputy minister positions in the provincial government, they know how to navigate that system. And so I think having that voice
00:11:58
Speaker
for us to help supplement the things that we were saying is what was really important for us as a task force. Because we've seen way too many times, and I know I can speak for myself here, previously working even with the city of Edmonton, where you get reports or you produce reports that are community informed and they sometimes just get shelved because let's say your contract runs out because it was a contract position and no funding was available to continue that position.
00:12:25
Speaker
But as a result, sometimes that work also falls away because the position isn't there. And so I think that was something we were really mindful of to ensure that regardless of who's in council and who's the mayor and who's the councilors, there needs to be active work on this for the long haul.
00:12:44
Speaker
Yeah, and as I'm sure Rob is fully aware, the Canadian state at all levels is very fond of producing reports that catalog the evils of the state, the bad things the state is doing, and then those reports sit on a shelf somewhere and get dusty, right?
00:12:58
Speaker
Yeah, and there's also a push, like some of the counselors, they'll want evidence. You want evidence, you want metrics, you want mechanics. And even when you still present those mechanisms and mechanics and metrics and evidence, they still do not accept it and they still want you to go further and further and further.
00:13:22
Speaker
And for me, throughout the task force work, I always knew that there was going to be this conversation around metrics and measurements and whatever else. So that's why in repeated meetings and repeated conversations, even with our EPS members that run the task force, I like to highlight that all of the metrics that the Edmonton Police Service is tracking, they are failing to meet. So either they are
00:13:47
Speaker
failing to meet their metrics and getting money anyways, or the metrics don't really matter. It can't be both ways. So that's where we see a lot of the counselors, especially within this political environment, starting to play on the fence a little bit, trying to lean to their demographics and their base. And that really, again, alienates other people that may or may not have voted for them that are on the fence and not decided. And then it just paints people
00:14:17
Speaker
in a very bad picture and I saw a lot of Twitter conversation about the back and forth that myself and and Councillor Nickel had but again that's because I know from having worked for the city and been at council a number of times what aspect of political theater is going to be played out and how to challenge that political theater with
00:14:36
Speaker
with purposeful and direct responses to questions and comments that are fanciful and only meant to sow division and paint bad pictures of people. So that's why I was more than happy to step in at points and happy to help Dr. Trimby out when
00:14:57
Speaker
was her first time presenting to council. So again, being her first time not having that experience, I think it was great that myself and people like Irfan and other members were there to lean on and to start to push back on some of their stuff because this report wasn't manufactured from nothing. Again, it was requested by council
00:15:21
Speaker
for us to do a job and then much like the indigenous naming stuff I was involved with earlier last year, you do your job and then you present the result and still the people that asked you to do your job aren't happy with the outcomes and that again is just a failure I think in respects of people knowing what they want or not being transparent in what they are actually seeking from an outcome.
00:15:47
Speaker
You know, if I can just jump on real quick with that one piece, I just, you know, the way Rob handled that, you know, when the Councillor was trying to goad him into, you know, are you suggesting so-and-so is racist?
Recommendations for Policing Reform
00:15:59
Speaker
And I thought it was masterfully handled by Rob, not being goaded into a response I think the Councillor was trying to receive. But I think the biggest head scratcher for me in not that specific exchange, but still the exchange with that particular Councillor,
00:16:16
Speaker
was every time asking for the mechanics of his example around, well, what do you suggest we do around the removal of homeless camps where, you know, constituents are concerned about them being there? And that's where I observed probably the biggest disconnect between what the community task force had kind of worked with and likely the disconnect that sometimes is at the powers at be at council
00:16:39
Speaker
is, you know, we're not asking for non-enforcement in some aspects of things, right? But what we're asking for is compassion. We're asking for respect and dignity. And when that was framed like three separate times until Vanessa, you know, had to step up and, you know, share her own experience of homelessness until the council I think finally
00:16:59
Speaker
hopefully understood what was trying to be said is we're not asking you to not do a job. We're asking you to do it in compassion and respect because we shouldn't have to hope and pray that depending on the
00:17:12
Speaker
officer that shows up, they're going to deal with the situation in a respectful way. And then if another one shows up, you get someone who's, you know, kicking down the encampment, you know, throwing things away without, you know, proper access to things. And I think other ways that people have experienced sharing, you know, a lack of respect and dignity on the behalf of not only just the police service, but even bylaw.
00:17:35
Speaker
and peace officers. I mean, that's another area I think we can dive into a bit more because there isn't as strong oversight and regulation as there likely needs to be. And I think that's where I observed that biggest disconnect, right? When the counselor just kept pushing on, well, give me the, give me the operations, operations, operations. And, you know, you had three separate committee members say, well, it's about compassion and dignity, treating people with respect. And that didn't click in initially. And that to me was just a really interesting observance that I, that was a good reminder of why this work is so important.
00:18:05
Speaker
to.
00:18:07
Speaker
Yeah, Mike Nickel asking, Rob, if transit fares were racist was definitely a high point of in discourse and of that meeting. But let's get into the report because, again, it is extremely level headed, extremely reasonable, the findings and the recommendations of this report. I mean, as someone who, you know, has had police abolitionists on this pod multiple times, I look at this report and I say, yes, do all this stuff yesterday. This is motherhood and apple pie should have been done 20 years ago.
00:18:36
Speaker
as we move towards in creating new services to provide public safety. But here's a summary from the foreword of the kind of broad, I'm not gonna go through every single of the 14 recommendations, but this is like what they are in essence. You're calling for independent, integrated call evaluation and dispatch center that sends the right people to the right calls, specifically the right service providers. Training for police, peace and bylaw officers,
00:19:04
Speaker
that will talk about inclusivity and anti-racism, big changes to the Edmonton Police Commission, a new civilian oversight body for peace and bylaw officers, the professionalization of policing, so creating a new regulatory college like nurses and teachers have.
00:19:23
Speaker
changes, various changes to city bylaws and policies to stop the criminalization of property. The development of emergency shelter standards that set expectations for low barrier shelter spaces and allow pets, partners, and property. And finally, the kind of big daddy, a freeze on funding for the Edmonton Police Services with those increases that would have gone to EPS.
00:19:48
Speaker
which are estimated to be around $260 million over the next five years, instead refunded back into the community to support 24 seven expansion of key social services and other community safety ecosystem needs. Rob, which one of these recommendations of the like 14 recommendations, which one do you kind of want to just take a minute to talk about? Well, I think, um,
00:20:14
Speaker
They're all fantastic. I think they're all, as you said, they're all very reasonable. I think that there needs to be a lot of consideration on them. I like the, I stand behind some of the
00:20:31
Speaker
The funding, the funding one for me was kind of a linchpin. I, throughout our conversations at the task force, pushed for a stronger approach to funding and did propose something like a 30% hit to the current budget, not just an ongoing hit, but an actual hit because, again, I reflect that
00:20:53
Speaker
throughout the pandemic, throughout all these other things. The police are the only institution and service and organization that has not had any reductions whatsoever. So for me, that was one that I really wanted to focus on. And another one that really drives home that people didn't read the report is the changes that need to happen to the Edmonton Police Commission. And I think
00:21:22
Speaker
You heard it at council about one can't the Commission look after some of these bylaw officers and things like that Those kind of comments reflect to me that no one some of those counselors and something people in the community as well Probably didn't read the full report and didn't read the in-depth
00:21:41
Speaker
conversations and discussion points within it because we talk about how the commission right now isn't working as it should and that it's missing a lot of the people on there might be fantastic, they might be professionals, it might be the right people for the job, but the powers that is being exerted by the commission is missing the mark and that they're not exerting as much effort and force as they probably could and that
00:22:11
Speaker
they're not reading the report either because there was a comment from I think it was the chair that said they're already doing a lot of things in this report and that's why I like to emphasize the point of counsel that nothing in this report is being done right now. There are changes enough in the recommendations that mandate more effort and more initiative and
00:22:35
Speaker
Sure you might be co-locating call services but we want an independent call center not directed by police because the way the system is now allows police to determine what type of work they do. They're determining their own workload and when you do that and then especially when you have no money
00:22:51
Speaker
uh, to worry about, no funding to worry about, then basically there was a comment around, if you do that, then they'll be gone. We'll just, please don't become corrupt or something for that effect. And I'm not saying that that's the current system that's in place right now, but it sounds very much like the system that's in action right now. So, um, so I, I know you wanted one, but I touched on a couple of them and I hope I didn't steal any of Urfan's choices.
00:23:19
Speaker
No, no, no, lots of choose from for sure. I'm assuming, do you want me to answer the same question, Duncan? Yeah, yeah. Which recommendation or set of recommendations do you think is worth taking a bit of time to talk about?
Reassessing the Police Commission and Funding
00:23:29
Speaker
You know, for me, I think it's one that likely didn't get as much airtime. And I'm going to kind of piggyback off of what Robert mentioned. And I want to be respectful of the other task force members as well. So I'm not going to identify anyone. It's their stories to tell when they have the chance to say them.
00:23:45
Speaker
What was really interesting, though, at one of the meetings when we had the police commission actually present some of the things we had requested was how much it opened the eyes for some who might not even have even had the police commission on their radar initially in terms of how much that current system might need a reassessment, I guess you could say.
00:24:05
Speaker
And it was actually one particular task member who I think their jaw dropped after getting this presentation because they likely had felt that the commission was exercising as much as their autonomy that they're able to do prior to this. So it wasn't even having them on their radar, but after the presentation was like,
00:24:29
Speaker
you know, WTF, like we need to focus on here as well, because there are gaps, right? And I think, you know, again, Rob and I, because we're a little bit more experienced in the municipal realm, kind of, you know, have had this as a glaring aspect, you know, for a number of months, I would say.
00:24:48
Speaker
But we also want to be mindful, right? We want to be respectful of the space. But when you had other Task Force members now bringing up challenges around the Commission, to me, that was such a unique opportunity to just observe growth of some of the Task Force members and the aha moments that they were having around some of those basic assumptions aren't being met. And I won't hammer on this one too much, and I will actually answer your question. I apologize. But I think I was taken aback even when last week when the chair of the Commission
00:25:17
Speaker
in an interview on Global News, essentially said, yeah, we're doing all of this, as Robert alluded to, and then almost said that the task force is endorsing what they're doing already.
00:25:29
Speaker
That to me misses the point because if you were to, you know, if you were to, if you were there during the meeting to be quite honest you would get a sense that there was definitely no, no form of endorsement and I think our, our, our suggestions amplify that. And I think when city council, you know when we wanted to put things in the scope of
00:25:48
Speaker
you know, what council can have control over, I think that's where you see 13 or 14 recommendations pass. Because very early on, had we been a little bit more on the green side of things, I'm fairly certain that some of the recommendations would have been, you know, postponed around, well, this seems like a provincial thing or a federal thing. But because we were so focused on the control of council in some of these aspects, that's where I think we're able to get a lot of success.
00:26:15
Speaker
For me, though, I think the biggest one I would love us to start to look at is 11.4, creating a publicly accessible dashboard that reports progress on implementing our task force recommendations. It's not unique. The City of Toronto and the Toronto Police Service actually has something very, very similar. Shortly after their hearings, they established this interactive dashboard
00:26:39
Speaker
that allows anyone to access, you know, here's the, I think they had like 80 plus, you know, recommendations. Here's where they're at in terms of implementation. I think having something like that will keep Council accountable, but also needing to make sure it's a little bit separate from, you know, some of the inputs of the powers that be.
00:26:56
Speaker
because I do agree with Rob in terms of how deeply was this report read when some of the suggestions come back to, well, why can't the commission do X, Y, and Z when our task force is actually saying, well, currently, the commission is likely not set up to do X, Y, and Z because they're not doing ABC that great right now either. I think that's where I'm hopeful that there's through this 90-day reporting period. Again, I want to make sure we give the proper acknowledgement to people around the table. I was fairly
00:27:24
Speaker
I was fairly impressed with the level of support that was provided to us by the city of Edmonton and also the amount of distance they gave us. They were there to support. I did not get the sense that they were there to guide because I've been on similar city things
00:27:44
Speaker
where you see that the city is coming up with already a predetermined path and they just want this group to be able to rubber stamp it. I didn't get that sense from this variation. I felt it was what information do you need to help us help you make the recommendations that we brought forward. And so I think that's where, again, having a dashboard that provides accountability and transparency is a key piece. Otherwise, you are going to have communities continue to feel like this was just another exercise in, you know, as Rob puts it, political theater.
00:28:14
Speaker
Definitely. I think there's a recommendation that I definitely want to touch on and that I was grateful that made its way into the report. And that is, I don't have the number in front of me, but the language is identify how collective agreements are contributing to systemic bias and work to address these challenges. And so, you know, collective bargaining and collective agreements
00:28:37
Speaker
It's not the sexy part of anti-racism or defunding the police or police abolition work. But it's worth taking a minute to just think about the collective agreements that cops, that the Edmonton police and the police everywhere sign with municipalities. And one, how much money cops make? You could pull up the collective agreement with the cops that the city of Edmonton and the cops have right now, and you can go see the salary range.
00:29:06
Speaker
And so a first year constable coming out of what, around 700, 750 hours worth of training makes $71,000 a year. And that's without any of the overtime or numerous benefits that they're able to accrue through just usually their course of work. A fifth year constable in the EPS makes $106,000 a year. It is gobsmacking to, and like you need like,
00:29:35
Speaker
You need to be able to see, read. You need a high school diploma. You need to be able to drive. You need to be physically fit. But the bar to becoming a police officer is not an incredible high one. It's not like becoming a doctor or an engineer. It's not years and years of schooling and exhaustive testing. It's relatively easy to become a cop. And these cops get paid an incredible amount of money.
00:30:02
Speaker
and the largest kind of line item when it comes to cops. I mean, we pay for their helicopters and their guns and their tanks, sorry, armored vehicles, but the biggest line item is always going to be salaries, right? And, you know, the city of Edmonton is currently in negotiations with the Edmonton Police Association.
00:30:19
Speaker
And for context, the Amalgamated Transit Union, Local 569, the union that represents the people who make our public transit system work, so bus drivers, maintenance people, LRT operators, et cetera, et cetera. They just signed a contract where their members took zeros, 0% increase for two years.
00:30:40
Speaker
I think that same type of discipline should definitely apply to the contract that the city of Edmonton is negotiating with the Edmonton Police Service right now. I know that the recommendation is more talking about gender-based analysis and a few other things, but this is something that doesn't get talked about nearly enough, is that governments have real power
00:31:03
Speaker
to determine what is valuable, what those people get, what those people who do those jobs get paid. I just simply don't believe that a bus driver should get paid half of the starting salary of a police officer. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, and if they do, then
00:31:24
Speaker
maybe they should have a firearm as well, right? So again, the conversations around guns, the conversation around how to become a commissioner on the EPC is the recruitment process is much more thorough than it is to be an officer, a constable. And at the end of joining the police commission, you don't even get a gun. You only get to determine,
00:31:49
Speaker
We only get to hire the chief, right? So I think that's a point of contention, and that's a point that came up. And it also came to touch on the chief's own comments during the hearings when the comment around
00:32:06
Speaker
We hired a bunch of diverse people in the last 35 years. We have doctors and LGBTQ2+, and all these diverse people, people from the Black community and from the Indigenous community. And if we cut the budget in any way, shape, or form,
00:32:24
Speaker
those are the first people out. Well, that's because, yeah, the collective bargaining agreement is last in, first out, or last in, first out, or first in, first in, last out, something like that is what the chief says. But that's a problem, because if your diverse new hires cannot stay with the organization to change the demographics and the environment, then how do you suspect things will change?
00:32:54
Speaker
And on top of that, we've looked at the data, the diversity number around minority hires is frozen for the last number of years at around 12%. That tells you that even though you may be hiring more diverse people,
00:33:10
Speaker
diverse people are leaving the organization. So are you really changing the culture? And then on, we also looked at recruitment classes and how I think it was upwards of 700 applications and they hired 675 new recruits or something, which is a very high intake for that tells me you're hiring almost everyone that applies. And when you're doing that,
00:33:36
Speaker
That means either there's problems with the collective agreement, there's problems with the application process and the recruitment process and that maybe you're not hiring all the best people and in preparation. It means your standards are low if you're hiring 95% of the people that apply. We often hear bad apples right within the organization and things like that, but when you have any time of the year actively ongoing
00:34:04
Speaker
300 complaint investigations. That tells me that if you have 1,700 officers, a third of your officers are under investigation in some way, shape or form for complaints. And that tells me it's not just a bad apple, that there's something rotten within the system and that something needs to change. So that's why looking at the collective agreement, getting the mayor and council to push on some of these things may move things in a positive direction.
00:34:36
Speaker
There's also been some recent studies. Rob Gilzo, economist out of the University of Victoria, I believe, has got some really interesting scholarship which shows that police unions, the genesis and the creation and the establishment of police unions has kind of contributed to more racism by police because they are kind of essentially protected from any negative outcomes from their racism.
00:35:03
Speaker
But again, if any, if you, if you were, it is election season and over the next six months, counselors are going to be knocking on your door, seeing you on the street, talking to you, wanting your vote. Again, a very easy thing that you can ask them is, uh, make the police take zeros and in fact, roll back their wages 5%. They get paid a lot. And if, and if the city of Edmonton is serious about controlling its costs, uh, police salaries and that collective agreement between the police,
00:35:33
Speaker
and the city of Edmonton is place one to start. If transit drivers, if bus drivers take in zeros, police deserve a pay cut, is what I'm saying. Again, I think the biggest one obviously is the $260 million.
Myths and Evidence on Policing Effectiveness
00:35:50
Speaker
that you would take out of freezing the police budget and putting it into those community services. That is the big daddy, right? But I think it's worth examining the context of that. Even if we froze police funding for the next five years, the city of Edmonton Police Service would still receive $383 million a year. Even if the city of Edmonton followed through on this report and did everything you asked, which God willing,
00:36:18
Speaker
the police at the Edmonton Police Service are not in danger of withering away to nothing. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, that's that's again, I'll go back to the tweet that was shared by by Mike Nichol, right? When you when you start to use alarmist language around, you know, you know, the defunding piece, that's that's where this again, it's political theater, right? Because as you just outlined, like, you know, funds will still be, you know, established, you know, for for, you know, community safety and policing.
00:36:47
Speaker
but is being intentional about some of the groups that might not be receptive to that funding on a consistent basis. One example I wanted to share yesterday, but just there was no time to do so. They kept talking about the funding formula and how it provides consistent funding and we weren't naive to that.
00:37:06
Speaker
But I think back, you know, I did a small project a number of years ago with the previous provincial government closing out their Safer Communities Investment Fund. So this is like, you know, mid 2000s. And the Safe Communities Investment Fund was three years worth of funding that was available to community organizations. And I think policing also were able to apply.
00:37:29
Speaker
to address different forms of community safety in their communities. And because it was provincial, you had programs from the big municipalities, but also some of the rural areas that oftentimes get overlooked for some of this funding. As we were reviewing the projects, every single one of them, regardless of what kind of scope they were looking at,
00:37:48
Speaker
all had a very, very similar trajectory, which highlights the importance for sustainable funding, not just from a policing perspective, but also the community perspective. Because a lot of these groups connected to nonprofits, the three year funding cycle, year one was scaling up, year two was trying to establish and do the things they had outlined they would do with the funding.
00:38:08
Speaker
year three where they would likely be able to kind of further scale up or evaluate, they were actually scaling down because there was no commitment of funding and they weren't able to secure funding anywhere else. So all these really great initiative that started out in like a two-year timeframe, there was a huge exodus of people leaving because they didn't have a job guarantee at the end of their contract. And so they, you know, having families or other considerations, you know, often would leave their, you know, grant-funded position.
00:38:37
Speaker
six months to a year in advance because there wasn't that continuity of funding in the nonprofit or non-policing perspective. And so that's where I think there needs to be better awareness. As a whole, ideally, everyone would love to
00:38:52
Speaker
have consistent multi-year funding. How can we make that system equitable where it's not just one organization or one entity that's provided that guarantee, you're providing that equitable access. When we talk about inequity in terms of our systems,
00:39:08
Speaker
You know, that's just one example that I think was oftentimes being shared in different stories around the task force, because we are seeing that inconsistency of why does Group A get that multi-year funding, but Group B, who might not have an enforcement aspect but still has skin in the game for community safety and public safety, doesn't get guaranteed funding. So it was that imbalance I think that was really trying to be looked at for, you know, something along those lines.
00:39:37
Speaker
Yeah, and I think that the overall complexity that existed in that former funding formula that was talked about at length, and sure it provided predictability, but it was a mastercraft of linking funding to not only inflation, but also inflation plus
00:40:04
Speaker
hiring more officers. The way that the police price index was formulated was so that it created a system where in a funding formula that the city of Edmonton's own inflation was 2%. The police were able to maneuver it so that their inflation rate was actually upwards of 5%. And that was by tying it solely to
00:40:29
Speaker
collective agreements and contribution agreements that they would have with hiring officers. So it pretty much guaranteed that they would be able to keep hiring more and more cops, which again, if you're interested in keeping a community safe and keeping all people safe, maybe more cops is not the answer. And that's what the crux of this report also touches on.
00:40:56
Speaker
And there's a whole body of literature out there in police studies that highlights more boots on the ground might give the perception of safety, but does it actually impact safety in a positive way? And there's so many studies out there that highlights more police officers in communities doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be safer. And I hate when I see that kind of fallacious argument being utilized. Like even yesterday, there was...
00:41:25
Speaker
again, the challenge of only having a limited amount of time to speak. But when there's conversations about the good old days of Kennedy policing, there's reports the Ebony Police Service have produced themselves in the mid 1990s that highlighted how some of that beat patrol aspects weren't as effective as they thought they would be, which is why they moved to a geographic model of policing that was the foundation for their hotspot and intelligence analysis kind of programming.
00:41:51
Speaker
And so I think, again, it's that disconnect, right? And this is where it gets a little bit frustrating from a citizen's perspective is you hope that people who put themselves out there to be in leadership positions can be as informed as much as possible. And I know that's impossible to do because there's so much they're expected to know. But I think when you see some of those questions or assumptions being, you know, just
00:42:14
Speaker
thrown out there with not a proper context and not a proper opportunity to challenge. That's where you get these assumptions and biases seep in around, well now, and again, looking at the Twitter chatter, you know, now people are saying, you know, because we're not going to be funding the police crime rates are all of a sudden going to skyrocket. Oh man, I wish we weren't going to start funding the police. Okay. So I think you, you're making excellent points, right? More cops are never the answer. And Rob, I think you're getting into the weeds on a, on a fascinating little bit of, of counsel, a bullshit in Arcana, which is that like,
00:42:42
Speaker
Don Ivison essentially as mayor and a couple councils ago had negotiated this like funding formula for police, which was quote unquote to depoliticize the funding of police, which is like, it's a political decision, like get over it boys. Uh, but, but essentially had locked in massive year over year increases, regardless of, of anything, the police could literally like, like start murdering people on the streets. There'd be no consequences to their budget based on this agreement that the, um,
00:43:11
Speaker
that the city of Edmonton Council at Edmonton had negotiated with themselves to just consistently give the city of the Edmonton Police Service budget increases over a year. But yes, more cops are never the answer. I think the last recommendation that is worth talking about before we get into a couple of other things is
00:43:29
Speaker
You know, recommendation two, you know, expand the number and use of crisis diversion and alternative policing teams. And, you know, this, we have started down the path of like, you know, call two on one, you know, crisis diversion teams are good. You know, we have, but it's a patchwork of organizations, right? It's like Reach Edmonton, which again, is the cops, is essentially run by the cops, which I'm not a big fan of. Boyle Street, Canadian Mental Health Association, Hope Mission, it's a mishmash of kind of like,
00:43:59
Speaker
public, private, nonprofit agencies. There's really no one body kind of seizing this service, and it needs to be much more clear about who are these workers? How does crisis diversion work? What are the framework that they work under? How do they work with cops if they work with cops at all? We essentially need to supercharge this conversation around how do we
00:44:28
Speaker
get people who need help help that is not the cops. And, uh, you know, this, this report is very clear, makes very clear case about why that needs to happen. And, uh, I think it's a question, you know, the broader community needs to focus in on, on as well. Yeah. And, and even if, um, we heard about how there's fantastic work happening downtown with crisis diversion and people are using it and they're getting
00:44:55
Speaker
amounts, a number of calls, and we learned that more calls could even be diverted to them. But if they, and of course they'll need more resources to answer more calls. But we still in Edmonton at least have this issue of
00:45:10
Speaker
After you do some crisis diversion where do people go you have nowhere to take them because you're taking them to a shelter or you're taking them to boil street or somewhere like that where we have heard and it's been in the media numerous times about how some of these places.
00:45:30
Speaker
are not very nice to specifically indigenous people, but other people, it can lead to re-traumatization. It can lead to just poor living conditions in some of these institutions with a mat on a floor and things like that. And I think Councillor Walters said before, it's like a hoagie and Jesus in the morning or something to that effect. And that's what we're re-traumatizing and re-institutionalizing our own most vulnerable people to. Where do they go after they get diverted from
00:46:00
Speaker
from being arrested and things like that and and why don't we and I know we we kind of laughed about it after after the meeting or during during the meeting maybe even when I made the comment of like bs bullshit bylaws that targeting that we know target our most vulnerable people and put them into a system and find them with fines they're never going to pay with maybe the end result being jail
00:46:25
Speaker
and things like that. Like that is not acceptable.
Encouraging Public Engagement and Accountability
00:46:28
Speaker
There are real world examples of municipalities and counties that have made some of those bylaws, specifically diversion. So instead of getting a fine, you go into a diversion program, either community service or 24 seven crisis diversion, something like that, that helps people maybe maintain
00:46:49
Speaker
a little bit more humanity and maybe puts them on a better path than just sending them to the mustard seed or somewhere like that where they'll just go back into the cycle the next day. Yeah, crisis diversion from what are you diverting them to? Are you diverting them into a home or are you just diverting them into the next shelter, the next camp? Like, exactly.
00:47:11
Speaker
You're just diverting them into another crisis and right now that's what the system is set up to be.
00:47:20
Speaker
I think there needs to be a lot of attention paid to that. And if people read the report, it again speaks to within existing budgets. There is an emphasis that there should be no wiggle room whatsoever for police to advocate for more funding to do more of this because we've seen how they can move around money within their own coffers to meet some of the other things that they want to do.
00:47:45
Speaker
So, again, emphasis on within existing budgets. Boost crisis diversion within existing budgets, not more money. Yeah, and I know our friend's got to go. He's got an actual job with actual commitments. So, I do want to quickly touch on a few things. So, the police reaction.
00:48:07
Speaker
Edmonton Police Service put out a press release after the report was released saying that they were disappointed that your report focused almost exclusively on policing and enforcement, which is hilarious. They had, quote unquote, significant concerns about the accuracy of the report.
00:48:22
Speaker
Many recommendations are not evidence-based or founded in research, blah, blah, blah. When we followed up with the Edmonton Police Service about what specific concerns they had or any examples of anything that was inaccurate or incorrect or not evidence-based, their reply was, the EPS will work directly with City Administration and the Police Commission on the response to the task force report. To respect the process that has been set up by yesterday's City Council motion, the EPS will present its analysis and feedback to City Administration in the near future.
00:48:48
Speaker
I know you wanted to take a minute to talk about the police response, Irfan. What do you got?
00:48:55
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you know, I have a lot to say and I'm going to have to be mindful of how I say it, but I think at the end of the day, you know, what a load of shit, if I put it politely. Because, you know, you have, you know, when you're starting to claim that a report that's produced lacks evidence when the chair holds a freaking PhD,
00:49:20
Speaker
When the, you know, I'd say two other members also have a doctorate, or I think one completely their doctorate, one is in the pursuit of their doctorate, who also happens to be a police representative on the task force. And then you have someone like me who's a PhD dropout, but still kind of utilizing evidence base in everything that we do.
00:49:43
Speaker
I think that really did hurt the task force a little bit in terms of without going back to something we talked about earlier, without giving a sense of even if this report was read with any great detail, was this a response that was planned regardless of what report came out? Because I think at the end of the day, I want to be super mindful that we had
00:50:05
Speaker
three police entities on the task force, one from the commission, two from the admin and police service. And I think it was helpful in the sense of having them there to just get a better understanding of some of the nuances around policing that some of the other members may not have been familiar with.
00:50:21
Speaker
But I think at times, and this is why we were really super focused on policing and law enforcement, is because when you're tasking a task force that's the size of ours to produce the report in less than six months, we have to be laser focused. We have to be. Because if we're trying to look at the whole community safety ecosystem in the span of six months, we're not going to give you anything useful or relevant.
00:50:47
Speaker
everyone around the table then would have felt like they wasted their time and no one wanted to feel like they're wasting their time because of how important this work was and so I think when it's so quickly you know you know using probably a policing analogy when their shotgun response is to just debunk it right away it really felt like you know you're a kid on a playground and
00:51:07
Speaker
and the person takes their ball home because they didn't like how you're playing or however analogy you want to use. And I think that's damaged a lot in terms of some of the good work that was built around even building trust, even that small court of 16 people, the fact that you have police bring out a statement like that,
00:51:26
Speaker
And I know there's some circulation on social media that at our last meeting, did the police even attend the meeting? They did not. That in that combination of things really has, I think, damaged some of the good work that those two individuals on the task force, I think, were able to do at least
00:51:43
Speaker
build some bridges in that capacity. So when you, I think this to me is that big disconnect. You have, you know, their commitment to action. You have all these things they're talking about being more equitable, diverse and inclusive. And the second you have lived experiences, I think this is what hurt people the most on the task force when they said it was not evidence-based.
00:52:00
Speaker
it totally downplayed the lived experience of people on the task force. People who have experienced homelessness, people who have experienced poverty, people who have experienced racial discrimination in the city of Edmonton. And you're telling them that the report that they put their heart and soul into and tears is not relevant. I think that's the message that really needs to be shared in terms of the impact of a message like that.
00:52:28
Speaker
And I'll just add that much to Irfan's point of statement that that beliefs and the statement is just complete bullshit because the report was informed by their data, by data that the chief has used at City Council. We asked, and I'm happy that it's getting released in the next couple of weeks, but there is an in-private report that the
00:52:53
Speaker
that we hear about this $7.5 billion dollar number that's been passed around, especially by Chief McPhee for, oh, there's just a lack of coordination and if we coordinate all this money, we'll solve the problem. We got a presentation from the group that put together that report and
00:53:09
Speaker
again, that number is complete bullshit because I'm sure the number exists within the ecosystem but the review that they're asked to do is everything and I'm talking about post-secondary schools, I'm talking about pharmacies, I'm talking about H payments and all those things add into this 7.5 billion dollars and I don't think as a citizen
00:53:37
Speaker
And as a task remember, I have the right to determine how people spend their age payments or the disability payments. I don't, I don't think the police have that right either. So to report that.
00:53:49
Speaker
that money needs to be coordinated better to have better outcomes for our most vulnerable is just a complete misdirection and an invalidation of the good work that is happening. And the data was informed by their own data set. So if there's anything that, if our report is inaccurate and not based on evidence, then nothing that they do and none of the data that they use is either.
00:54:18
Speaker
Exactly. Hanging over all of this is, okay, the report has been submitted. We're going to hear back in 90 days. But the big thing, the $260 million from freezing the EPS budget and investing that back in the community, which again, 13,000 people sent an email to their counselor saying pretty much that they wanted exactly this.
00:54:41
Speaker
You know, this upcoming election at the municipal level provides you with an opportunity to talk to your candidate in your area and ask them specifically, will you freeze EPS funding and divert that money into this community safety fund? Because if they don't, if they won't say yes to that, don't vote for them. Don't donate to them and tell your friends and family and colleagues to not vote for them too.
00:55:05
Speaker
And I think if, uh, if you could walk away from this with anything, which is, is that, you know, municipal politics, one of the big things, actually one of the biggest things, the biggest thing that they are responsible for is the police budget. And for so far, far too long, it has not been a political issue. It has not been anything that anyone has ever had to answer questions on or be accountable to people on.
00:55:30
Speaker
really face any scrutiny over whether they supported, you know, a year over a year, three and a half percent increase for the police budget. No questions asked. And I wasn't just did that and no one gave a shit. And
00:55:42
Speaker
And so I think we have to resolve to just not let not do that anymore. And that the budget process, the municipal budget process is long and shitty and contentious and boring as it is. The only thing that really fucking matters out of that is the police budget and freezing or dropping that police budget year over year over year until we actually get a community that's able to keep itself safe. Because right now police are not keeping it or not are not keeping us safe. And I think that makes the report makes that very clear as well.
00:56:09
Speaker
So those are my final thoughts on what's next. Robert, if you have the floor, you want to riff on the election or what people should take away from the report. This is it, your final closing thoughts. Yeah, I'll just go real quick. Again, at the end of the day, just the bare minimum anyone can do is just read the report. Make your own conclusions based on your own perspectives. That's your right to do so. But at bare minimum, read the report before making any kind of statements or decisions.
00:56:38
Speaker
on this topic. And you got to go, Irfan, right? You're not going to hang around to the very end. No, I got another thing in two minutes here, so I have to log off. So thanks for the opportunity. No worries. Thanks, Irfan. See you later, Rob. See you, Rob. Bye. I think, yeah, like Irfan said, just take the time to read the report. Some of my conversations out there with other leaders challenged them to
00:57:04
Speaker
people in the community if if the report is outside and it doesn't hit the right points then then hold us accountable again we were we were trying to do the best that we could with what we were kind of given and
00:57:17
Speaker
and knowing that we had kind of serving members and members of the EPC on the task force, it was going to be a little bit of a tougher slog. So I think read it, have feedback, and really hold counsel and the Edmonton Police Commission's feet to the fire as this 90-day
00:57:39
Speaker
date comes up and the reporting happens as we get closer to the end of this year and to the election cycle. Try to hold people accountable. If they're missing the mark as well, and if you're not happy with how they're carrying out the recommendations, then feel free to push council, speak at council, do whatever you can to start things moving in the right direction so that Edmonton is safer for all. And it's not that Edmonton
00:58:06
Speaker
And the report makes a point that it's not that Edmonton isn't safe. It's just not safe for certain demographics within our society. And if we can't wrap our head around that,
00:58:19
Speaker
then things like reconciliation and racial relations and things like that will never take place so we just want to make a city that's safe for everybody so that and there was a video that was put out so that people like myself and like Irfan and other people of color and minorities can walk the street without having to be hassled
00:58:41
Speaker
because of our skin color because there was a crime 30 blocks away and now I need to check your ID because you're brown or black or whatever and that is what policing is like now and that's what it'll continue to be if we don't make any changes.
00:58:58
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a fantastic place to leave it. Again, we will have the link to the report in our show notes. And I took the time to read it. It's very digestible. The report, again, entirely reasonable. Things that should have been done 20 years ago, the best time to start doing them is now, if we didn't do them 20 years ago. I think that's where we got to leave it, Rob. So what's the best way for people to follow along? Now is the time to plug your pluggables, any websites, social media accounts that people should be following?
00:59:28
Speaker
Um, I think I saw my articles on Edmonton city as a museum. I've been getting some hits lately. I'm on Twitter at DHL. Rob. Um, I'm just at about, uh, a thousand followers. So, um, hop on tour and give me a follow and, and I look forward to having more conversations like this and being active in any way that I can move forward.
00:59:50
Speaker
Yeah, Rob's a very good follow on Twitter. If you're not following him, give him a follow. And folks, if you like this podcast, you want to keep hearing more podcasts like this. Please tell your friends, please share, you know, text it to them, share it on your social media channels. Word of mouth is the best way to get it out. Another quick thing you can do is you can leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts that really actually does help people find the podcast and the algorithm really, really likes reviews.
01:00:18
Speaker
Also, if you like this podcast, as well as the other work that we do at Progress Alberta, we would really like it if you could join the 450 other some folks who help keep this little independent media project going.
01:00:28
Speaker
To do that, you can just go to theprogressreport.ca slash patrons, or there's a link in the show notes as well, and you just put in your credit card, you know, five, 10, $15 a month, whatever you can afford, we would really appreciate it. Also, if you have any notes, thoughts, comments, things you think I screwed up on, or things you think I need to hear about, I am very easy to reach. You can reach me on Twitter at Duncan Kinney, and you can reach me by email at DuncanK at ProgressAlberta.ca.
01:00:52
Speaker
Thanks to Rob Hulle and Erfan for coming on the pod. Thanks so much to ChasmicFamU communist for the theme. Thank you for listening and goodbye.