Transcript
Speaker: but So I think the pathway into a ministry job is actually really unclear. If you're just in your church doing volunteer ministry and thinking, I'd love to get a job one day, but how do I get a ministry job? What is the pathway to get there? Like that is not written down anyway.
Speaker: This is the After Dinner Mint, a podcast of stories I tell you at dinner. Think of the mint as the stories you tell after you've been kicked out of the restaurant, holding your mint, standing in the street, telling more honest stories with your friends than you did at the table.
Speaker: It's not a sermon. It's not advice. It's not self-help. We're processing what we're learning about faith and life, honestly, in community. encourage you to do that with our God and our communities.
Speaker: Hey guys, it's Bec. Welcome to season two of the After Dinner Mint podcast. I'm here today with Maddie and Alexia Horton. If you guys could please introduce yourselves and then tell us about your experience in like paid and volunteer ministry. So no pressure, but Alexia, you get to go first.
Speaker: Yeah, great. Thanks for having me. I'm Alexia and I'm married to Ash. He's a pastor here down in Coburn Central at Southern Christian Church. and I have two kids, one high school, Nadia, and one finishing primary school, Kevin. At the moment, my job is part-time and I work at Trinity Theological College. So I'm the women's ministry advisor there.
Speaker: i suppose the main thing I do is support the female students that are studying their degrees. So supporting them at the moment in their studies, what's going on in life. But I guess my passion is for seeing them being really prepared for ministry life after college.
Speaker: That's what I love about my job. There's lots of other things I do at Trinity alongside that role, but that is the focus of what I do and it's great. That's beautiful. And before I jump into Maddie, tell me, just give me like a little bit of a bird's eye overview of some of the kind of volunteer and payrolls you've had before ending up in like the theological college.
Speaker: Yeah, so i suppose my journey into ministry is a little bit roundabout because suppose it started off okay before you have children. Things are a bit more straightforward.
Speaker: What? You used to me. Yeah, that's right. Full time for a while. but as a lawyer, so that's what i've originally trained as. But I'd always thought about doing ministry full time. So i suppose the next step was to do MTS, which is a Ministry Training Strategy Apprenticeship for two years at the University of Western Australia.
Speaker: And so that was full-time. That was awesome. And then after that finished, I thought if I'm going to be in ministry, I really need more training. So I thought about going to theological college. I started study. I did one unit and then I had my first baby.
Speaker: and From there, this study was a slow crawl as I had kids doing study part-time. After that, I would have loved to have got a ministry job, but between kids and my husband being a pastor of a church, that wasn't going to happen. So I suppose my ministry experience then was volunteer, though at whatever capacity I had at the time.
Speaker: And it was in those years when my kids started going to school, I thought about what do I do with my life? And this lovely job at Trinity was advertised and I thought, I'm not sure I'm up to that, but I'm going to apply anyway.
Speaker: And it's been great. So that's where I am. Amazing. Amazing. Now, Maddie, like quick intro, because I know that we know you, but you know, for people who don't know you, and then maybe tell us a little bit about like your volunteer and paid ministry roles.
Speaker: Yeah, well, I'm Maddie. I have been a beneficiary of Alexia's work at Trinity um recently. So I've been at Trinity Theological College finishing off my master's degree. Almost done. wo oh certainly like I'm like handing in this week and I'm like, bye-bye. You know, I love Trinity. I'm actually going to be sad not to be there.
Speaker: But my experience in volunteer and paid ministry was, you know, ever since I became a Christian as a young adult, getting involved in things like youth group, um leading Bible studies, you know being trained and equipped myself um in more of an informal way as a volunteer. And and then i just, after hearing the gospel, I just had a passion for wanting other people trained and equipped in God's word because I felt like I needed training and equipping. Yeah. So it was just something that I remember yeah know deciding whether I would go to uni or do something in ministry, ministry training. And that was a real toss up for me. But it was always, but just i decided to go for to uni first and get a little bit of kind of secular experience, just in a paid job in it and something outside of the ministry world.
Speaker: as a beneficiary as well, to benefit my ministry in future, in the sense that I know what it's like for other people to be ministeristry i'm ministering to in the secular workplace, doing the daily grind. And so it was always a bit of a, you know, interim thing to be working um in that role. And so I always knew I wanted to go to into ministry, which kind of got fast-tracked a bit when I got tapped on the shoulder for a one-day-a-week traineeship at Prov Midland, where I'm at now. So I started doing that and it was kind of being being trained up in an actual but vocational capacity as well. So that was great.
Speaker: And then decided to go to Trinity because everyone I knew seemed to go to Trinity. And I was like, oh, that's what people do. and yeah And then I've been working working on and off. And then I've had you know i had quite a bit of time off paid ministry while I'd finished off my degree. And so a lot of that was volunteer that I did as well. So I've been in and out of either.
Speaker: Some of my roles were quite similar, but, you know, volunteer and paid ministry as well over the last, yeah, don't know, 10 years really. Yeah, wow. Yeah, mate.
Speaker: That's me. I love it. I love that like speech was basically your like vision of Paul, like making tents. You're like, yeah, I've got to get trained in like making tents first before I can... Yeah, yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. yeah I was like tenting with people.
Speaker: Well, on that wonderful segue. That was really valuable. it was really valuable because I learned a lot of skills from speech pathology I needed in ministry. And it wasn't even to do with speech pathology. It was just like organisation skills, time management, people skills, life skills that were just really, really helpful. So, um you know, God knew what he was doing in leading me that pathway first.
Speaker: ah He was like, sit up, make sure you don't choke. That's also important. That is important. Okay. So keeping us on track, I am Bec. I am the founder of Stories A Day You At Dinner. I trained as a clinical psych, I'm married to Zach. I have three boys. No one has paid me any money for ministry, but I've done things like run women's Bible studies. I coordinated a play group for a while. I dropped in one for about five years. That's pretty fun. So I'm only here to just be like, tell me the things. I'm super intrigued because... So today's topic came out of our like, ask me anything
Speaker: episode with Josie Rivett. So I'll link that in the show notes. But basically one of the questions was about pathways into paid kids ministry roles. So i was talking to Amy Stouffer and she said like pathways into paid ministry is a whole topic on its own. Like you should interview Alexia.
Speaker: So it turns out it's not actually a whole podcast topic, but it's also Alexia's whole job. So basically in this chat, we're hoping to cover like the pathways into paid ministry for women and the barriers that women face, as well as some of those like counterintuitive advice for structuring your whole life, if that is your goal. So Alexia, can you just maybe give us a bit of an idea? Like what are some barriers you see for women who are seeking theological training?
Speaker: Yeah, and I think there are some, so it's a good question. The things I'm going to talk about now are really things that I've experienced myself, but also what the students at college have brought to me as we've talked about it. So this is kind of a bit of a collection of things over the last few years that I've been thinking through.
Speaker: And yeah, what are some barriers to people coming both to Trinity but also going into ministry or staying in ministry? So i think one of the things that keeps coming up over and over again is that pathways idea you were talking about. So i think the pathway into a ministry job is actually really unclear. If you're...
Speaker: just in your church doing volunteer ministry and thinking, I'd love to get a job one day, but how do I get a ministry job? What is the pathway to get there? Like that is not written down anywhere. and No one knows what that looks like. So unless you talk to people or, yeah, see someone who's done it, then i think that's a real barrier to know where to start.
Speaker: move Yeah. Yeah, so that's one. Definitely. And what else? so connected to that, I guess, is – what I mentioned, people are not being able to see someone who's done it before them. So having a role model of someone who is in ministry and has the job that you could see yourself do. So I suppose in Perth, we're a little bit smaller in our Christian community and seeing women employed in churches is not as common as it could be. And so, yeah, to aim for something where you can't see what it looks like, that's really hard.
Speaker: So having role models in ministry, that's I think that's a barrier, a lack of role models. to see what you could be doing. Yeah. Massively so. Do you want more?
Speaker: I do. i think like there's that. I think there's definitely like, does this job even exist? And like, if you found that unicorn who was doing it, you know, that's the type of person that you would, or maybe this is me being an extrovert, being like, hello, you don't know me, but I have many questions. And like, tell me exactly what you did and where did you go and who were your friends?
Speaker: But there's definitely that. But it also sounds like there are other barriers in terms of like, perhaps, you Your whole life as well. Like in terms of what women might face compared to say like a man who's like, I'm going to go into full-time ministry. It also sounds like there are women would grapple with different things.
Speaker: Yeah, totally. So it might look a bit different for a guy just because you see a lot more men leading churches or in maybe what you would think of as a standard ministry role. But even the women that you do know in ministry, the ones I could think of, they're all doing different things and they all have a different job description. So, yeah, I think it is really hard to see what someone does and how to get there.
Speaker: Yeah. That's um really interesting you said that because I actually wondered if people found what can we do in ministry that's not pigeonholed into perhaps like this one, they only ever see women work in one type kind of role.
Speaker: whether that's say like kids ministry admin, you know, yeah's so that this and they these are such valuable and awesome roles to have, but not every women woman wants to be working or has kind of gifting to be working in those areas. So, you know, what would you say to that person who is also going like, is this the only role that women have in ministry?
Speaker: oh Yeah, I'd say to them I think that there is a whole wide variety of roles that are not just kids ministry or doing admin or the women's worker so looking around Perth now I'm really encouraged to see women working in all sorts of roles in ministry um whether that's you know designing Sunday services or being part of like leading the connect or welcoming group or just being like an assistant pastor at large like doing the things that are needed so I think We might not see them and they might not be at our church, but there is yeah a whole heap of need out there for women to be working in ministry.
Speaker: Yeah, awesome. Yeah, thanks for that, Alexia. I'm like, what do think women grapple with? do. What do you think women grapple with that perhaps their male counterparts wouldn't?
Speaker: I'm not saying that guys don't feel this, but I'm I think probably women feel a lack of confidence more in perhaps their own ability or aspiration in what they would like to do. And so suppose that links into another barrier I see for women going into ministry is that no one has tapped them on the shoulder. I love that you used that language, Maddie, when you said someone approached you and did that. If someone doesn't do that for you, then it's actually really hard um to think about going into ministry under your own steam. Yeah.
Speaker: And that doesn't mean that you're not capable or that you could be doing it. It's just that no one has encouraged you yet to do it or think about it. So I think guys do feel a lack of confidence as well, but not to the same extent in general that women do.
Speaker: Yeah. And always worth, I guess, you know, if you are someone who is considering that, having the conversation with your pastor and being like, you know, yeah, what does this look like?
Speaker: Like, what would it look like for me to get more training even as a volunteer and then as a pathway to go potentially into some sort of vocational role in future? It doesn't have to be an immediate thing. I think we can often feel like, okay, for someone who wants to go into vocational ministry,
Speaker: How is it going to happen? is it going to happen in the short term? How am I going to get a job like in the next couple of years? But sometimes it's actually you do want to consider it a bit as a slow grind because also to be in vocational ministry is a um you actually have you've got a character.
Speaker: um You need to examine your character. um you need to be examining your faith. And it's very personal. It's it's not like taking up a role at a local community.
Speaker: hospitality joint or in a hospital somewhere where you actually leave it at home. You know, you you go home and you leave it at work and, you know, you you're there, you've got your work hat on, you come home. A ministry vocation does actually require your whole life to be under, in in submission to God.
Speaker: Yeah. And like leading on from that, I know when we talked, Alexia, you were saying, you know, Trinity doesn't often recommend that, you know, women come straight out of school and train. But then often what you tend to see is like, okay, well, if you've gone off and say like Maddie did, you know, you've had secular training in some other degree, which is a really good thing to do, you know, you're making tents. And then often then women are like married, having babies. Like, it sounds like or they are not married and not having babies. Like, I think it sounds like on both levels, there's a level of complexity about this is my life stage. And then how does that also interact with theological training?
Speaker: Hmm. Yeah, definitely. I think ga you're right. Coming to do theological study after school, I think does really preempt the whole process. You do want to get some life experience. You want to see what you're like as a Christian, as an adult, and see what life is like and all its hardships and its, yeah, living as a grown-up, as a Christian. So you want to do that first. You want to see, do some volunteer ministry first.
Speaker: See if that is Yeah, either you're gifting or something that you're actually motivated for. You don't want to be doing things for the wrong reasons. I think theological study is kind of a, it's a middle step in a whole training ah experience. So if I was to think of the default pathway of how someone gets into, say, full-time vocational ministry, after you've established, like, yes, have I got the character?
Speaker: Do I at least think I have the capability to do this? Is someone tapping me on the shoulder and thinking that I can do this? Then doing some full-time ministry of some kind, whether that's volunteer pay, that is going to be the first step, I think, before investing in, say, three years of theological study. so And like you say, ah by the time you've done all that and you get to Trinity Theological College, say, women who are either Yeah, having babies and thinking they would love to get married or they are married. And so it's a life stage where there's lots of changes and lots of other decisions to make and to juggle at the same time.
Speaker: I think that's just the way it is for us at the moment. oh I reckon that segues into our second question really well. So, Alexia, why does the common advice to study when your kids are grown up, why does it sound right but often doesn't play out well when women actually get to this stage?
Speaker: Yeah, so I'm not speaking from experience so much here as just what I've heard multiple times from other people. um But I can definitely relate to the ah feeling of when your kids are really little, life is so overwhelming, and why on earth would I go do study then? Yeah, like I had kids who didn't sleep. I had other stresses in my life, like why would you go do your study?
Speaker: But I have heard from people who have not studied at that stage or not taken any kind of training while their kids are small and then gone back when their kids are teenagers. Actually, it's so much harder to do it then.
Speaker: You think that the kids are at school, now you think they're occupied and you're going to have all of this time. But actually, the emotional toll and the taxi driving of kids in their teenage years, I think is actually more complex than when they're small and in the baby toddler.
Speaker: or like kindy kind of stage. So yeah, that's, I've heard. And so I'm kind of thankful that I did pursue some study when they were small. I think it's got the added bonus of When you get to that stage of life and you feel like your time is freed up, to not start your training then, but to actually be then equipped to be doing ministry.
Speaker: So if you had, say, a gap where your kids have been little and you haven't been doing very much for a while, to go back into doing ministry is actually really hard and lots of people feel like they've lost their confidence or they've really got to get something back. The more training you've had before you have that gap and you have to go back, I think the more confidence you'll have in giving it a go again to go, done this before. I don't really feel like I can do it now, but I know I can do it, so I can do it again. Yeah.
Speaker: I agree. like just even in a secular example. So I did my training in clinical psychology. And so I was like having babies and working and then being like, I'll do a day, a week of a placement and a day, a week of like study and just kind of being like, and then I will have another baby and I will like weirdly come back or whatever. Like just kind of very slowly got my master's degree. And just every time I would, I have 30 babies, but anyway, every, both times I had my older two and I would go back to work and I might've said had a year off and I was convinced that,
Speaker: I know nothing. I have forgotten everything I've written. If it's like a longer period of time, it would be a bigger blow to your confidence returning back.
Speaker: and Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, think as well, the early years can be a challenging time. like so it It definitely sounds like a bit of a don't be scared off you know from studying in this early stage. It is hard, but you know don't be scared off by it because it's still beneficial. And I can definitely see the benefit in that the stage of life, like it's hard enough to hear a sermon.
Speaker: um on a Sunday when you have little kids because often you're having in and out with a little wine chasing a toddler, in the children's ministry if your kid doesn't want you to leave them or you're kind of, yeah, very much chopping and changing. It's actually...
Speaker: I think sometimes being more thoroughly equipped through that season can help ground you a bit more because it's really easy to start kind of going afloat in that season. like you know I've spoken to some women who said, who had kids fairly close together and they said, I just, I realized I just wasn't even in on one whole Sunday service for six years.
Speaker: didn't sit in on a service, didn't listen to her to a you know and a full sermon. And so, you know, there's definitely, you don't need to be afraid of the being equipped in ministry through theological training in that season season because also it also equips you for, you know, perhaps other areas in your life that are that you're not being fed in the same way too.
Speaker: Maybe that might not be a reason, but it's still a thought. Yeah. I mean, i guess my question kind of leads on from that, which is like, yes, if you were living like your best cry room life and, you know, you're like me turning up to church is practicing faith on because I'm i'm not going to anything.
Speaker: What are the kind of small things, you know, like yes, you can't be in full-time training and that's, you know, like, yes, God has called you to a ministry in the home.
Speaker: Like what are, what is the middle ground between full-time study and not doing anything? Like what kind of things are like adding little deposits in the long run?
Speaker: Yeah, you're talking training-wise, Bec? Yeah. because Yeah, training-wise, like ministry-wise, like anything that's going to, you're like, if you're ultimately thinking I want to head towards vocational ministry later in life or seek out a paid ministry role, what are those kind of things that are going to be helpful to, you know, have a been give you a bit of confidence a bit later? Yeah.
Speaker: Well, I reckon like volunteer ministry wise, like keep your head in the game with things like either leading a Bible study or meeting up with someone to read the Bible. Just keep doing the, like leading a Bible study is not a small thing. I was about to call it a small thing. But um those kind of things, I think just keep your brain in gear um and just serving others and keeping on top of that kind of thing. Because even leading a Bible study, if you haven't done it for a while and then go back to it, that's really hard to get your confidence back to be able to doing that.
Speaker: a and like read just I think like read some good books. So yeah, don't like switch off your brain. You can take things slow.
Speaker: i think that's a way of training. You don't need someone to necessarily give you all the input. You can get it from books. So yeah, keep improving and learning. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. Which I suppose kind of segues really nicely into our third question, which is what advice would you give to a woman who loves ministry and has thought about paid ministry? probably Maddie alluded to this before, but the first thing I suppose you have to think about is your motivation for doing ministry. So if I was to start a conversation with anyone, that's got to be where you begin. Like, why am i wanting to do ministry and why am I wanting to be paid for it?
Speaker: So you need to start with the first one first. Like, why do I want to do ministry? Yeah. but no ye Am I doing this as a response to what the Lord Jesus has done for me Am i wanting to see his kingdom grow? Am I wanting to see people grow in faith? i want Am I wanting to see people come to know him?
Speaker: room You've really got to examine yourself and make sure you're not doing it because you think you have to You're not doing it because that's where you think your sense of identity should be. yeah get your motivations right.
Speaker: It has to be out of a love for him and a love for people. and So they're getting paid for it. I suppose my philosophy would be actually you want to kind of maximize your ministry in your life no matter whether you get paid or not. So whether that's in volunteer role, whether that's around the side, if you need to get paid, then Yes, you need to get a job to support yourself and do whatever ministry you can around that. But if you've got your whole life and you can devote it to ministry and someone's willing to support you and pay you for it, like why wouldn't you do that?
Speaker: So I suppose getting that that money thing in the right order I think is really important. Wanting to do ministry is the the priority and let's do it in such a way so I can do as much of it as I can so that I can still live and have money to live on.
Speaker: So i suppose after that, if you're really thinking like paid ministry is the way I want to go, like talk to someone who knows you really well. Like that would be the next step. Like your pastor, someone at church who you serve under, get someone's opinion on whether they think it's possible for you. That's if you're not in the lucky position of someone having tapped you on the shoulder to kind of encourage you into ministry. Like actually go seek out someone's opinion. I think that would be a really helpful thing to do and especially at your own church. There's a great conference coming up.
Speaker: in August called Challenge Conference. So yeah that is the conference where people go to it if they're thinking about doing MTS, like the ministry apprenticeship. But you can go along to it without knowing much about MTS or the apprenticeship because you can sit down there, hear some great talks on going into ministry and you can have an interview with someone in ministry where they can ask you questions about your life, where you might be heading, what you might need. that's That's a great conference to go to to meet other people who might be thinking similarly to you.
Speaker: That's run by PGP in Perth. What is PGP? Awesome. Perth. For those who don't know. Yeah, yeah. Lovely. So like that that's one thing you can go to anyway to actually talk to people about whether paid ministry is for you.
Speaker: If it really is, then I suppose you need to get some training. Do some ministry first. whether that's volunteer, whether it's an internship, whether that's an apprenticeship, like get stuck into it, give it a go. Like you need to do that before you invest financially in training. ah Because the next step I suppose is theological training.
Speaker: If you want to be in full-time vocational ministry, don't go into it without having your convictions and your foundations really solid. And that comes from doing some really serious study at Theological College.
Speaker: um And that's an investment. That's doing a degree. That's coming and using your brain and sorting out all your questions and convictions and making sure you've got things straight. So, yeah, you need some questions sorted out before you come to college. But when you're there, like make the most of it, i use your time to study God's word and get your thinking straight.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. So that's probably... the advice I'd give and that's kind of the default pathway. And as we know, lots of life interruptions come in between those things.
Speaker: But, yeah, that's in general what I would say to people. Yeah. I think that's really helpful as well that you um reminded people that yeah that fallen that ministry, looking at ministry in a whole, not just in a vocational or non-vocational, but like, you know, in a paid or an unpaid role. But also even in those seasons when you are, you know, potentially doing, say, one one day a week at church or doing stuff it's actually not to lose sight of the opportunity still to give, you know, to still be volunteering with some areas, even if your role might be somewhere else. Not to burn out, but, you know, to to still be offering offering part of your your time or resources in a way that is going to build up the body of Christ in a really helpful way that, yeah, obviously doesn't burn you out or anything, but yeah in a way that is going to be beneficial.
Speaker: yeah I think it's also, yeah, that was really helpful. The thing from personal experience, the thing that that stuck to me when I first started theology training, and I did the biblical theology and systematic theology unit. They're just two little half units. It's like, what is biblical theology? What is systematic theology? And you just get a real rough overview of both.
Speaker: And I remember, I think it was Tom Ball. I think he actually said, like, theology is the only study that you will have that requires personal change, that you your life should be impacted by what you learn.
Speaker: And yes which is completely true. You know, it's, there's definitely things that you learn at uni, which you think, oh wow, this is a really useful skill that I use in this kind of life, in this area of my life, or wow, this helped me develop skills in these things, which has been really beneficial for this. but Theology study, you should be learning and it should actually be impacting your heart and your life and how you live your life in service of God and also in service of other people as you grasp the various truths from the Bible and as are you actually understand.
Speaker: are you know considering what it means to be part of a church and what it means for us to be those who are saved by God, completely not on our own merits. And yeah as you deep dive into all the little theological issues or as you start reading the Bible a bit more deeply, this should actually change how you live, not just your brain. It's not an intellectual passing of information. It's a life kind of, it it yeah, it should actually be changing you.
Speaker: Yeah. I mean, think it's possible to practice as a clean psych and your whole life be falling apart, but you're like, I've got this hour with you. Let's just hang out. But, you know, you can't see the rest of my life and how what I'm saying is impacted by the rest of it. But isn't, yeah, if you're in ministry, people also watching your life and, you know, they live in the same suburbs they're I seen you, I seen you mate yelling at someone at the shops.
Speaker: No. yeah you have to have the consistency and you have to, you know, two Timothy, what one or two Timothy really call you, Paul is calling Timothy to live out, like live a faithful life and to have good conduct and to have leaders that have good conduct who are faithfully living out like gospel shaped lives. So yeah, you you just can't necessarily go about thinking about vocational ministry as just its own thing, like its own bubble.
Speaker: um So that's also something worth talking to someone about, like Alexia said that, hey, how is this, you know, my life, you know, how how does vocational ministry kind of, how do you think it might go alongside my life as it is?
Speaker: Do you think there are things that need to either change or also, you know, am I at a life stage where vocational ministry will actually not be a helpful not be helpful thing for, say, my family family?
Speaker: Yeah, it's just worth asking those questionsing questions, examining, and just actually talking to people about it too. Yeah. I mean, what I liked about what you said, Alexia, as well, is actually, would you be doing ministry anyway, even if you weren't getting paid for it?
Speaker: Like, would your life kind of shake your own neck? yeah Yeah. I think that's definitely the question. Like I often ask myself that question for the work I do at Trinity and yes, I would totally be doing the work I'm doing.
Speaker: I love it that much if I was not paid. So yeah you should be asking that question of yourself. We're we're so we're servants of God. When we get paid, that is to, so we can eat and so we can live. It's not a measure of your identity or what you're worth.
Speaker: and ministry is service but you do need to be able to live so I think some of the things that Maddie said about burning out like some of us are really prone to just giving and giving and giving like like be wise you do need to actually live and eat and have somewhere to live so you do need to take that into account but as you're weighing things yeah would I do this job for free is this what I want to be doing with my life is serving Jesus people yeah yeah I had it framed to me as, look, we'd love to, because someone like came to me and said they wanted to offer me a day-a-week employment opportunity ah through my church. And it was really helpful the way they framed it. They said, these are kind of things you're already doing. We would like to liberate your time so that you do them more.
Speaker: And it was actually just i i've i've never it was such a helpful way to frame it that I've just never kind of gone back from that in my own thinking that being paid to do this is liberating my time so that I can commit this and dedicate this time to the ministry role that I've been given or like the works that I've been given and called to.
Speaker: So that a helpful way to do right And I think if you have that kind of idea in mind as well, you know that your training is never going to be a waste. So even if you don't know what's going to happen in life, even if you don't get a paid job later, like doing an internship or an apprenticeship at church, that's not going to be a waste. You're always going to be using that training for whatever volunteer ministry you'll find yourself in later in life. Oh man, I learned so much Bible. I'm never going to use that now. Yeah, that's right. You can come and do things at Trinity that are not a like a three-year degree. You can do things part-time.
Speaker: You can come and do something like Trinity Equip, which is like an unaccredited course, doesn't have the same assignments, study load, and but you're still getting some training in Bible teaching and ministry skills.
Speaker: Yeah, there are many things you can do that will grow you and the way you serve of others. Yeah, that won't be a waste later on, even if you don't know what kind of job or no job you might end up with.
Speaker: Yeah. I also do like Trinity at night courses, which are just like six week little courses that are really good too. so Yeah, totally. Bite fries You can just jump and jump Yeah, it's great.
Speaker: And that kind of leads, like, we've just got one final question, and that's related to women who are in WA but perhaps don't live in Perth. What kind of options would you, Alexia, recommend to women who live in either rural or remote WA? How might they get trained up, and um what does Trinity provide?
Speaker: Are there any good options you might recommend otherwise? Yeah, I found this question really hard because I actually am feeling for women and people who want to do volunteer ministry, I suppose, be better trained in rural and remote WA because I don't think there are a whole heap of options.
Speaker: Yeah, to come and be better trained. I mean, first of all, yeah, your church can do this. Your church pastor has been trained. He can train others. So, yeah, have a chat to them. and But Trinity doesn't offer things online. I think there's really good reason for that, especially if you're coming to do a three-year degree and you wanted to go into vocational ministry.
Speaker: i don't think you can be trained for vocational ministry online. I think you need to be able to see the lecturers and see their lives and interact them and and know what they're like. And they need to be able to see you So they need to be able to see you changing, absorbing, knowing you and your character.
Speaker: I think it kind of ties into what you were saying, Maddie, about theological study changing you. and i don't think that's a great fit if you're doing that online and no one can see what has been produced in you by the end of it.
Speaker: You can hide online. and You can't hide in the Trinity community. That's another reason I think to come and do it in person is all the other students that you get to meet bounce ideas off and they are going to be your support through ministry in life. The people that you meet at college, they're going to be your peers. They're going to be who you're going to be able to turn to later on. If you don't come and do it in person, you won't ever get that.
Speaker: So saying that, I think there should be some scope for people who aren't going to say full-time vocational ministry to be able to do some kind of training online, because there's no way that someone who wants to be better equipped in volunteer ministry is going to move up to Perth to come and do study.
Speaker: at yeah just, life probably won't allow for that. We do offer some Trinity in town. So that's the Trinity at night courses actually come and visit the regional areas um and do the Trinity at night course in a day. So they've often run them in Geraldton or in Albany or some of the other regional centers.
Speaker: I had three women come from Bunbury and do Trinity Equip. And so I think Bunbury is probably about the furthest you'd probably want to come from to be able to travel up. You need to do that. That's awesome.
Speaker: Yeah, they would come on a Sunday afternoon, and see family in Perth, then come to a Trinity Equip on Monday morning um and then head home. So I suppose, yeah, we were really fortunate to have them and that they were close enough to be able to do that.
Speaker: and I have one lady who comes up from Rockingham, so that's probably the furthest away we've got at the moment. But any further than that, yeah, I think it's really hard to, yeah, find some good training online.
Speaker: Yeah. alum just as a point of interest. So my mother-in-law is in a small country town and her husband is a pastor. And she said that she did the one year more theological college, but back in the days where they did it via correspondence. And she was like, it was just stretching.
Speaker: like yeah yeah yeah yeah that that is a great course to do yes well i don't know if they offer that anymore yeah of course if you live down in the great southern there is the in albany they run the certificate level internship and training program so that is a really great thing that the churches in albany have done for the wider regional area um where you can actually go get some more training mean and lovely There's so many theological, like Trinity theological graduates.
Speaker: Yeah. Around that area. It's really lovely to see. Which I suppose is that outworking of what you were saying, which is like, come and be trained here because these guys, these people will be your network.
Speaker: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker: Bec, I have a question that you can cut if you want to, but Bec, I have a question. you You did get tapped on the shoulder and asked if you wanted to do some sort of training and twice attention. Yes, yes, you did get tapped on the shoulder. on bri leg I'm super hungry. It's hard.
Speaker: It's hard being this happy. Yeah, just people just want you. It's great. They Look, it's hard being popular. love where this question is going. I have a question for you.
Speaker: no I'm just taking it as compliments. Yes, question, yes. It's... you Sometimes there are good reasons to say no to a vocational role or, you know, to something like that. And um i feel like you had some yeah had some good reasons. And so I was wanting to for you you said no to doing further study. And why why why did you say no?
Speaker: ah Uh, the first time I said no, I was at Prov Church and they were like, come along, we think you'd be good at vocational ministry. And at the time I was, i was like, oh, I'm studying Clean Psych and maybe, you know, I want to get into Clean Psych and maybe I'll do it afterwards. And at the time I was like, that's where I was going.
Speaker: And look, uh... it's not for the week you do like a four-year degree and then you have to do like a lot of intensive study like a lot I had to go off and do other jobs so that I could get enough experience to apply for the master's degree so I went off and like I've worked in the prisons for a while I've worked in child protection i was like I have enough experience to apply i think there was something like 250 applicants and they take
Speaker: 20. So at the time i was like, this is where I'm going. So I kind of was like, I can't, um I can't do that now. But because i had continued, but I always did lots of ministry stuff because I i liked it. and i like I liked running members Bible studies. I got tapped a second time at our other church, but the church we are now. And similarly to you, Maddie, they're kind of all like, look, we can see that you're already 20.
Speaker: You're really doing a lot. and So I was running a women's Bible study and I was running, i was coordinating the play group, which was like a team of 16 women. But at that point, and then I had also gone back to work and I just was like, I can't in good conscience do any more things. I like, I had two kids.
Speaker: and can and I was running a women's Bible study in my house, but that was really large. You know, I kind of, someone had to do the laundry and the cooking. So at the time I was like, I can't, like ah I was like, and I was an apprentice. Also, once you've got your clinical masters, you then have to go through an apprenticeship after that to be supervised by someone. So I was like, I'm also so i'm still an apprentice.
Speaker: So for me at that point, I was like, I have a occurres can't add any more things. I can't, and I think that will like, you know, stop being a clinician, you should do ministry.
Speaker: At that time it was a no. And yet here I am. I'm like, now I have had a third baby and I'm like still doing stuff, running stories, having a good time. So, you know,
Speaker: I'm like, I'm not. and It's kind of cool. You've been kind of equipped along the way, right? Like, you know, you've been meeting with people. It's like been a real, like a growth journey. It's not like you're being, you're not, you've not had any training either. Like you've actually had this kind of informal way that you've grown and trained into these. vocational roles.
Speaker: But yeah, it's just, but I just thought it was interesting considering the topic we've got, how we've got someone who has actually said no. And it's okay to say no sometimes, like when you when you weigh up where your life is at. I mean, also what Alexia said, to be fair, like when I talked with my husband, so my husband knows me and, you know, loves me obviously. And he was like, but one thing that he did say, because he knows me, he was like, look,
Speaker: a thing to consider is at the moment, you know, you're, you're doing ministry stuff because you love to do it and you enjoy it. But also when you get bored or, you know, you are not enjoying that, like, you know what i mean? say you want to move on from running this particular ministry. If you're on staff, you won't be able to, which, you know what i mean? Like is probably fits well with my personality. i was like,
Speaker: And, you know, now I'm doing this and I love this and I love interviewing and I love all the writing and all of that. And I don't know, who knows what may happen with it, but I'm having a good time. like i feel I'd like could let to have a conversation with you sometimes.
Speaker: We'll keep friends.
Speaker: And we can continue the ministry pathway conversation. This has become an intervention, isn't it? They're like, you've been tapped three times. Yeah, the call is coming.
Speaker: a Anyway, that was a little bit, that wasn't in Bec's plans for this episode. So I threw the bus. Definitely not. but yeah I don't know. I'm just, I'm here to facilitate.
Speaker: Yes. Brilliant. Well, so Alexia, coming back to you as our special guest, um if women do want to get in contact with you and like kind of have that coffee or like chat on the, you know what i mean?
Speaker: what would be the best way for them to kind of get in contact with you? Yeah, well, probably the easiest way is through Trinity Theological College. So you can totally email them, ring them. but If you're interested in ministry, haven't thought about it before, or you have and you've got questions, um I might not have all the answers, but i would love to have a chat to you. So, yep, come and have a coffee with me. and But I would recommend that challenge conference if, like, the thought of doing ministry is new to you.
Speaker: then that is a really great place to explore it and with lots of other people who have wisdom to offer. That's brilliant. Thank you so much. I just love like actually kind of where it's gone, like There are multiple things to consider for women in ministry. Like it might be a live stage, but it's also like, you know, your gifts and talents and being able to see other women doing things in a way that like you might want to do, but also being able to find like if that's not available to you in your church. Like I love those links of like Trinity, Quip, like Challenge Conference, NTS, like Perth Gospel Partnership.
Speaker: and Trinity at night, like I will link all of those in the show notes because I think those are like nice jumping off points for even if you can't see it in your church, like there are other options for you. All right. Thank you so much, Alexia. I really appreciate that.
Speaker: Yeah. Thanks for the chat. That was great. Thanks for having me. Thanks, Alexia. Yeah.
Speaker: That's it from us, friends. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. And if you did, you can sign up to our free weekly newsletter called Stories I'd Tell You at Dinner. So you get essays, poetry, podcast episodes, everything, photo essays straight to your inbox on Wednesdays from March to November from Christian Women in Western Australia.
Speaker: If you'd like that, the link is in the show notes. Thanks for listening, guys. Music.
