Transcript
Speaker: Well, I feel like Christian art really should be the best art for several reasons, is that Christianity is reality and that it believes in reality, it believes in God.
Speaker: So good art should connect with people by telling them something that is true.
Speaker: How does Christianity affect the theme of art or the intake of art?
Speaker: And I think we can look at it with a perspective of hope.
Speaker: The evil are redeemable and there's a deeper truth than the pain or than the experience.
Speaker: All right, hello and welcome back to Artists of the Way, our second episode.
Speaker: We are being joined today by two very good friends of mine, Nate Knobloch and Ellie Knobloch.
Speaker: Nate has been a professional graphic designer since 2016.
Speaker: He's worked with the Grand Rapids Symphony.
Speaker: He currently works for a company in Holland that I don't remember the name of because I'm a terrible friend.
Speaker: But he does wonderful work.
Speaker: He also does a lot of theater on the side, and he runs with his wife an Etsy store called Ingrained, where they do really beautiful, awesome wood-burning designs.
Speaker: Before he'd done the Etsy shop, he did one for my wife and I's wedding.
Speaker: And they're just beautiful.
Speaker: He does excellent work.
Speaker: His wife, Ellie, who also helps him run the store, also does other artist things.
Speaker: Ellie also has done theater on the side.
Speaker: She's done some homeschool performing arts, which my wife and I were both involved in.
Speaker: And then she's taught at Turning Point School of Dance for three years.
Speaker: And then you said you're going to start teaching dance again soon.
Speaker: I am, starting in the fall, after I have my little baby.
Speaker: That's a good idea.
Speaker: I feel like the baby would not be very happy with all the spinning around and dancing.
Speaker: Fantastic.
Speaker: Well, how are you guys doing today?
Speaker: Doing well.
Speaker: Good.
Speaker: Yeah, I've been excited to come on here.
Speaker: Sweet.
Speaker: So I have a couple questions that I ask everybody at the start.
Speaker: And by everybody, I mean the one guest I've had so far.
Speaker: You asked Tim.
Speaker: I asked Tim this question.
Speaker: The first question is, what are you working on right now?
Speaker: What kind of artistic project is your pet project at the moment?
Speaker: Well, I think maybe, Ellie, you can start because we're kind of working on a thing together.
Speaker: That is one thing that John didn't mention because maybe he doesn't know about it.
Speaker: So on top of doing theater and teaching dance, I also enjoy writing.
Speaker: And I'm actually working on a children's book right now.
Speaker: It's inspired by a dream I had that I've never been able to get out of my head.
Speaker: And I'm turning it into a children's book.
Speaker: And Nate is helping me illustrate it.
Speaker: So I'm kind of thinking up ideas.
Speaker: And it's been fun because we've been able to work together on perspectives for this part of the book or what needs to be captured in this...
Speaker: in this picture.
Speaker: So that's been fun.
Speaker: That's super cool.
Speaker: Do you guys have like a perspective goal for when you want to get that out?
Speaker: There's not really a deadline on it right now.
Speaker: Really, with the baby coming in June, it's hard to put a deadline on anything.
Speaker: That's the one deadline that exists.
Speaker: That could be your deadline.
Speaker: All life will be dead after the baby.
Speaker: Oh, no.
Speaker: No, we'll still be doing stuff.
Speaker: And this will probably happen after that and finishing, just because I'm a slow illustrator.
Speaker: But it's cool.
Speaker: It's a book told in a poetic form, so the lines rhyme.
Speaker: And it's very fairytale-esque and wonderful in the full sense of that word.
Speaker: That's really awesome.
Speaker: I wish I could write that style, but I'm always drawn to the darker stories.
Speaker: But I always think those cool... The computer sound is not supposed to be on.
Speaker: Grr.
Speaker: We will not hear that happen in episode three.
Speaker: All those problems will be ironed out.
Speaker: But I always think that that style...
Speaker: I don't know, that's sort of whimsical, like the Narnia style, where it's just like, this has no necessary rhyme or reason to it.
Speaker: It's just wonder and joy.
Speaker: I think that's super cool.
Speaker: Right, right.
Speaker: And I feel like there are things that you can get out of those stories that maybe even the author didn't understand.
Speaker: But if they're coming from a place of truth, if they're connected to the Holy Spirit, then that can...
Speaker: good things can come out of that and good truths and ellie's been reading a lot of george mcdonald and he is a trippy ride to read because it's like what are you talking about and he is a big proponent of like the subliminal messaging like he has an idea of what he's saying but he doesn't want to tell you what he's saying and
Speaker: But and you can sometimes figure it out, but you come away with more of like a feeling and a sense of of of learning something, even if it's hard to put your finger on.
Speaker: Right, Ellie?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like his books have an ambiance.
Speaker: of the message he's trying to convey rather than like an allegory or anything like that where you're like drawing direct truths oh this means that it's more of this general um atmosphere that he's creating through his story and through what's happening but also the way that he writes about it and that's been kind of inspiring to me while working on um working on our children's book
Speaker: Yeah, he's someone who is very influential to C.S.
Speaker: Lewis, who you mentioned.
Speaker: Lewis started reading him as a teenager, I think.
Speaker: And he said that Fantasties was the first book that he read of George McDonald's.
Speaker: He picked it up in a bookstore while waiting for the train.
Speaker: And he said with reading that book, his imagination was baptized.
Speaker: And so this was...
Speaker: while he was in kind of his atheistic or agnostic good chunk of his early life, but George MacDonald was definitely a Christian, and with his writing and the...
Speaker: just the spirit that he infused into like the fairy tale of Fantasties, it just kind of brought Lewis to another plane of truth and reality and wonder that you wouldn't get from someone who isn't connected to the reality of God and the wonderful world he created.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That's awesome.
Speaker: I feel like that could be a good segue into any number of things in our discussion today.
Speaker: But what I'm going to segue into is our second question.
Speaker: How has God been using art in your life recently?
Speaker: So things you're reading like George MacDonald or, I don't know, whatever else you guys are taking in.
Speaker: What are some ways he's been working in you guys' life through those things?
Speaker: Yeah, well, I'll start by kind of continuing the thought about reading.
Speaker: I'm reading Lilith by George MacDonald right now.
Speaker: And it's got a lot of messaging about how we resist rest in our lives and how we have this need to do before we rest.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And that actually, um, almost beauty comes from unexpected places that we want to create it, work for it, all this stuff, but it, um, it can spring up from the ground and it can, um, even come from death, like beauty and life can come through death.
Speaker: And, um,
Speaker: And that's trying to put words into something that, like we were trying to say, George MacDonald doesn't... His ideas are so vast that they don't condense down into words very well, which I feel like is the beauty of art.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: Is that it does convey...
Speaker: truth that is so deep it cannot be condensed down into a little blurb that you put as your uh instagram bio or right right because again that's going back to something you could get from like a lecture like very intellectual right like we were talking about before the podcast started
Speaker: Whereas I think like Lewis also talked about this, like how like the imagination is kind of on a different plane.
Speaker: And to really like reach someone with truths, you have to often go to the place of imagination.
Speaker: And I think that that term is actually can be broader than we usually think of it as.
Speaker: It's just not, you know, imagining a fairy tale land and like play and stuff.
Speaker: But imagination is like the lens through which you see the whole world.
Speaker: Like, is this good?
Speaker: Is this bad?
Speaker: Your imagination kind of tells you if it has good or bad.
Speaker: connotations to it.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Well, and I feel like, so that's something I've been kind of observing in some of the friendships that I have with people who aren't entirely convinced of
Speaker: the truth of scripture, the truth of Christ.
Speaker: Um, and a lot of the, a lot of the people that I know that don't believe have heard all the apologetic arguments.
Speaker: They know backwards and forwards.
Speaker: They listened to all the, all the, the big deep curriculums of, you know, and, and have heard all of those arguments, William Lane, Craig, and, and like Ken Ham for creationism.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: you know, all the different apologetic stuff, but something still doesn't strike a chord.
Speaker: And I think, I think maybe in our culture, we're, we're about to, or are currently in figuring out that just having the intellectual argument for faith is not enough, but people on a spiritual and emotional and imaginative level have to, they have to connect with the story of scripture in some way.
Speaker: And so I think we, we're, we're at a point of needing to like come up with like a,
Speaker: an emotional apologetics or a creative apologetics that resonates more with... Narrative.
Speaker: Yeah, that speaks less to, oh, this is, I have this intellectual argument and this intellectual argument and this intellectual argument, but actually showing how does the story of Christ...
Speaker: and the story of scripture and, and, and that whole salvation narrative, how does that actually fulfill you and create a more fulfilling story?
Speaker: How does that show and, and, and deepen that?
Speaker: what it means to be you, which I think is a great segue into our topic today, which I haven't told our listeners.
Speaker: So listeners, if you haven't read the title of today's episode, we are talking about, surprisingly, faith and art once again.
Speaker: Today we are talking about
Speaker: why faith matters to art.
Speaker: When I graduated high school, I had just done two shows back to back.
Speaker: I'd done Cotton Patch Gospel, which was an adaptation of the gospel.
Speaker: And then I did Mary Poppins, and both of these were with Christian organizations.
Speaker: And then I also went and saw a play festival at Actors Theater, which had a lot of interesting concepts in it, but like emotionally,
Speaker: So kind of jumping off what we were just saying, it didn't resonate with me.
Speaker: It felt like things fell flat.
Speaker: And I was like, and I knew some of the people that were involved in that.
Speaker: And there was some interesting takes.
Speaker: There were some fun little, I mean, they were just one act, little 10 minute plays.
Speaker: So there was a lot of interesting stuff there, but it just didn't really quite resonate.
Speaker: And I was pondering through why.
Speaker: And so I kind of,
Speaker: came to this place of realizing that there's something in faith, in the Christian faith, that enriches the art and makes it more meaningful.
Speaker: Definitely.
Speaker: Both in, I think, the process of creating it and in the process of absorbing it.
Speaker: And that was eventually like my graduating speech.
Speaker: But that was a topic I wanted to talk about.
Speaker: And you guys are people that I've talked to about that a lot.
Speaker: You know, not just about how art can benefit us, but how our faith
Speaker: makes our art better and makes all art better.
Speaker: And not better in the sense of,
Speaker: it saves people, but better in the sense of it is better art, you know?
Speaker: So I wanted to start with the topic of themes in stories, because story is my artistic love.
Speaker: So that's the place that I go.
Speaker: Mine too.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: But I mean, there's even theme.
Speaker: Theme is present in painting as well and in dance.
Speaker: Well, I mean, honestly, every
Speaker: form of art is telling a story of some kind, even if it's just the story of a moment.
Speaker: And so then that story has a theme.
Speaker: I feel like I'm sounding like Hamlet now.
Speaker: I'm starting to ramble intellectually.
Speaker: Get out of here, Hamlet.
Speaker: Now tell me how to act.
Speaker: Oh, I hate that page.
Speaker: Anyways, well, with theme being such an important part of art, it's really, it's the little heart that's beating in every work of art.
Speaker: How are the themes of a story affected or changed from a Christian worldview?
Speaker: And I guess two addendums to that?
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: Additional things to that.
Speaker: Both as an artist, when you're creating the art, how does that make the art better?
Speaker: But then as a consumer of art, when you're just taking in a piece of art that's truthful, how is the theme enriched?
Speaker: because of your belief and your understanding of God and Christ and all that?
Speaker: Well, I feel like Christian art really should be the best art for several reasons, is that...
Speaker: Christianity is reality in that it believes in reality.
Speaker: It believes in God.
Speaker: It believes in the true God, the true history of God.
Speaker: It has his word, which is completely true, which gives us the history of humanity and of God's working with humanity.
Speaker: And it gives us just the worldview of reality.
Speaker: So,
Speaker: So good art should connect with people by telling them something that is true.
Speaker: Like if your narrative doesn't ring true, then it's either going to come off as just shallow and like meaningless to the receiver or it's...
Speaker: It may sound attractive to them, but it's a lie.
Speaker: And if they follow that lie, they're going to go to terrible places.
Speaker: But then also, I was just thinking about while we were talking about where Paul talks...
Speaker: about if you can speak with tongues of angels and blah, blah, blah, and have not love, then you're nothing but a sounding gong or clanging cymbal.
Speaker: And so I wonder if maybe you guys can give me your thoughts on this, because I was just thinking about this, if there is something to doing art...
Speaker: in a spirit of love and love to God and love to your audience and love to the craft.
Speaker: That goes beyond just excellence.
Speaker: But you can kind of tell when an artist loves what they're doing and they love who they're doing it for and it connects with you in a deeper way.
Speaker: Like a musician who's giving a concert, you can kind of tell that like...
Speaker: if they've done this same concert, the same song, 12,000 other times in their life, and it's just like, I don't want to have to play this again.
Speaker: Or if they've done it 12,000 different times, but they love it, and they love the people who they're doing it for, and a joy exudes from them, and then that has a much greater ability to,
Speaker: to impact the audience, even though it's the same words that would have been sung, whether they were doing it with love or not.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, I think another aspect is the subject of the art.
Speaker: I feel like that has to be approached.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: In love to, or like whoever the art is being seen from, because one of the things about art is empathy, you know?
Speaker: So I think you have to empathize and show some form of compassion or love to whoever this story is about, even if they are horrible, you know, because otherwise you're just...
Speaker: roasting a person through a novel or through a baby, you know?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So... Especially if a person reading the novel or whatever can identify with some of the characteristics of the villain because we all have broken things within us.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But if we feel like just the author is saying, and this villain is irredeemable completely because they have these bad things in them.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Then it's like,
Speaker: Inside, you're like, oh, shoot.
Speaker: Or maybe Irredeemable as well.
Speaker: Yeah, well, like, so I'm working on a series of fantasy books.
Speaker: And one of the cultural things that's coming up in that, as I'm working on the second book, we're going to broaden out and see some different kingdoms.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And since God is kind of my muse, he's really vital in the world of the fantasy world, so then the world's relation to him is very important.
Speaker: So one of the kingdoms is going to have a form of spirituality that...
Speaker: I don't like, I'm not a fan of, I find to be really concerning to me, that kind of spirituality.
Speaker: But I have a lot of friends that view the spiritual world or their relationship to God in that way.
Speaker: And so, like, you need to be careful as you're, like you said, as you're building these things, you don't want to just paint with a broad brush and say,
Speaker: you know, just make that stereotypically hilariously evil.
Speaker: Like there's obviously a place for stereotypically hilariously evil characters, but you, you, you as the artist have a responsibility to understand when people might identify with that, especially as a Christian artist, I think, because yes, your art is an outpouring of yourself and a reflection of truth in the world.
Speaker: But also you have a responsibility in the kingdom to speak the truth in love and to love people well.
Speaker: And so to think about, is there somebody that might read that what's going on there and depending on how I paint it might feel like I'm just shouting at them the whole time.
Speaker: Not that you can't paint that as a negative.
Speaker: I'm definitely going to paint it as a negative because I think it's a negative.
Speaker: Yeah, that's what Jesus did, right?
Speaker: He got downright...
Speaker: calling the Pharisees you brood of vipers and such, but it's within the context of all of scripture where we know how God feels about sinners and he comes to save those who are lost and broken.
Speaker: But then we dial in on a moment and how God has very visceral feelings about things and about people who lead others astray.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, to bring all three of the words that you guys have been using together, we've been talking about truth, love, and empathy.
Speaker: And I think they do kind of all have to work together because... Well, empathy comes from truth and love in a certain way because you're...
Speaker: you are joining in with someone in something they're truly feeling and you're joining in with them in a spirit of love.
Speaker: But you have to continue that spirit of truth and love beyond empathy into there's actually something more here.
Speaker: Like if you just get stuck in empathy, then things that are bad, you never get beyond that.
Speaker: You never get beyond like...
Speaker: oh, you only struggle with this because something bad has happened in your life.
Speaker: But you have to take that empathy, that moment of empathy, and continue on into, yes, but there's a greater truth and there's a greater future for you.
Speaker: Frame it within the whole kingdom and the whole story of God and Christ and his...
Speaker: the truth of scripture and stuff.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Like Christ came and a big thing that he did is he commiserated with us by living a human life.
Speaker: But it wasn't just that he had an answer for the, the life of suffering.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: So, yeah, so I guess my fourth word that I'm going to throw in here is hope.
Speaker: And when you ask the question, it's an um word.
Speaker: You know that was a good word because Nate and I both ummed together in time.
Speaker: We were like, um.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Um, but yes, I think that was kind of the word that came to mind when you asked the question of, um, how does Christianity affect the theme of art or the intake of art?
Speaker: And I think we can look at it with a perspective of hope because the evil are, the evil are redeemable and, um,
Speaker: And there's a deeper truth than the pain or than the experience.
Speaker: And so you can infuse that into a theme of what you create.
Speaker: But then also, I'll often find myself watching a movie and being like, well, that was depressing.
Speaker: And then realizing, oh, it's...
Speaker: Because they left out this fact, which brings hope.
Speaker: That's one of the... So I'm going to get to superhero movies, which is the first time I'm talking about this on this podcast.
Speaker: Dive right in.
Speaker: One of my favorite movies is the movie Logan, which is such a depressing movie.
Speaker: It's very depressing.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I'll have to show it to you guys sometime.
Speaker: I watched it at your house once.
Speaker: Oh, you did?
Speaker: I've never seen it.
Speaker: You did show it to me.
Speaker: I did show it to him already.
Speaker: You're good for it.
Speaker: We'll have to show it to Ellie sometime.
Speaker: It's very good, but it's very depressing.
Speaker: There's a lot of rough stuff in it.
Speaker: But there is ultimately this redemptive quality to the arc of Logan, the main character, that
Speaker: And there's a hope at the end because of this character who is essentially his daughter.
Speaker: He learns to open up to her to show love, to become a much more healthy kind of father figure to his weird clone daughter.
Speaker: And kind of overcome his own demons by fighting a literal clone of himself.
Speaker: He has a clone daughter.
Speaker: He has a clone demon.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And then at the end, like this is this horrible bleak future where all the mutants are wiped out and everything's horrible and terrible.
Speaker: And it's a very R-rated movie.
Speaker: But it ends with this beautiful hope.
Speaker: And then compare that to the movie Joker, which I've seen once, which is a fantastically made movie.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Wonderfully directed and acted and very impressive.
Speaker: I think it's score one an Oscar.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I think it's lead actor won an Oscar, beautifully shot.
Speaker: I don't think I'll ever watch it again unless I watch it before the sequel comes out.
Speaker: But that's like a one and done for me because it's just all about an evil person.
Speaker: And it takes any of the hope or redemption that could be within that world or story out.
Speaker: And it's just like, let's look at this horrible person.
Speaker: who goes crazy and kills somebody on TV.
Speaker: And that's all there is.
Speaker: Right, right.
Speaker: I remember after you watched it, how you were like, kind of thought it was great, but like, we're kind of like, whew.
Speaker: I don't think I want to see that again.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Well, because there is truth in that too, because there is true evil in the world.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: There are people that do not get redeemed.
Speaker: There are situations that do not get redeemed.
Speaker: And so there can be a startling, uh, soul sinking, uh,
Speaker: feeling when watching something that just portrays that.
Speaker: But I feel like you can also portray those broken moments while also, like, placing it in a world where you get the sense that there's more than that happening outside of that moment or that story.
Speaker: Where I even wonder...
Speaker: That may be completely right.
Speaker: But if there's even value that could come from showing just this dark story and leaving you with a feeling of... And with the hope of people that people will want for more.
Speaker: To see that his philosophy of emptiness brought about emptiness and that you need more than that.
Speaker: And I almost wonder if...
Speaker: that kind of a story is less dangerous than a movie that purports to show hope when it's a false hope.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: And we'll bring up another movie that we recently watched, Everything Everywhere All at Once.
Speaker: Oh, I want to see that.
Speaker: I haven't seen it yet.
Speaker: It was really interesting.
Speaker: It was entertaining.
Speaker: It was very imaginative.
Speaker: Of course, it won all of the Oscars and such.
Speaker: And it's a multiverse movie done in a pretty imaginative way.
Speaker: And it's very kind of philosophical at the same time, like wrestling movies.
Speaker: with the question, like the character, main character discovers that there's a multiverse and there's like an infinite number of like her and like other universes.
Speaker: And it's all fun because you can do a technique of like obtaining the skills that other you may have in another universe.
Speaker: And then you can use those skills to fight the bad guys who are attacking you right now.
Speaker: And so that's, so that's pretty, that's a pretty fun trope.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: But they do wrestle with like, oh, if there's like all of these and stuff, what is really the purpose of any one of these lives?
Speaker: And, you know, a lot of people believe in the multiverse and stuff.
Speaker: And so it's a real question to a lot of people.
Speaker: And in the end, they like...
Speaker: Technically, we didn't see the very end.
Speaker: My phone died a few minutes before the end, but we saw where it was going.
Speaker: I don't know, man.
Speaker: In the last two minutes, they might have had an altar call and twisted it around, which really is what would truly make it a Christian film, is if it had an altar call.
Speaker: That's all it means.
Speaker: Yeah, or the atheist gets hit by the bus and then accepts Christ right there.
Speaker: That's the perfect example of a Christian story.
Speaker: It seemed like they were saying that you get...
Speaker: You get meaning by being kind to people around you and that kind of thing.
Speaker: Do you want to expand on that, Ellie?
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, it was basically that, that like, well, the real purpose is to make other people happy was pretty much what the final...
Speaker: Verdict.
Speaker: Final verdict was of what makes life important.
Speaker: But Nate was bringing up that like...
Speaker: why do people matter?
Speaker: You know, if there's all this meaningless chaos in multiple universes, why do people matter?
Speaker: And what is happy?
Speaker: Like, does happiness matter?
Speaker: What if one person's happiness is in conflict with another person's happiness?
Speaker: And so it kind of just offered this dead hope.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That wasn't anchored in reality.
Speaker: Because you can only follow that path so far until you do find, oh, well, to make this person happy, I have to take away this person's happiness.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so then you have to have a morality or a sense of good that goes beyond individual happiness.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And like we talked about earlier with like...
Speaker: why Christian art is important and is the best because it's rooted in reality.
Speaker: And that, like you talked about, it's not about being happy.
Speaker: Real life is a... Being happy won't sustain you.
Speaker: Other people's happiness, your own happiness, it will eventually come back empty and meaningless.
Speaker: And so people who go down that road are not going to be ultimately satisfied because we need to find our satisfaction in Christ.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And that's reality.
Speaker: That's not just for Christians.
Speaker: That's reality.
Speaker: I've heard it said that Jesus is the fuel that we're made to run on.
Speaker: Like if we were a car, he'd be like the gasoline that everyone, whether Christian or not, was built to run on.
Speaker: And we're not going to be running right or joyfully, happily, if we're not running on him.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah, to bring that back into a question that I was kind of having earlier, with, for instance, Logan, I doubt that the majority of the people who worked on that film were Christians.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I think the director might be, though.
Speaker: I have suspicions.
Speaker: I don't think it's officially out there.
Speaker: Who directed it?
Speaker: His name's James Mangold, and I don't think it's officially.
Speaker: James Mangold, if you're listening to this podcast, you famous Hollywood director, James.
Speaker: In on the ground floor of Artists of the Way.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Get in.
Speaker: This is going to go big.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: There's something about the... These are a lot of different movies, but I don't know.
Speaker: There's just something about the fabric of them where I'm just like... Sure.
Speaker: Also, the song that plays in the end credits is a Johnny Cash song about revelation.
Speaker: Which maybe he just likes the Johnny Cash song, but it's also definitely about the second coming.
Speaker: So I don't know.
Speaker: I have my suspicions, but what else is redirected?
Speaker: The Wolverine, Kate and Leopold, Ford v. Ferrari.
Speaker: Kate and Leopold, that's a delightful movie.
Speaker: It is.
Speaker: It's very delightful.
Speaker: He did that and Ford versus Ferrari and Logan.
Speaker: What range he has.
Speaker: He just did the new Indiana Jones movie as well.
Speaker: And he just got signed on to do a Star Wars movie about the Dawn of the Jedi Order, which I'm very excited about.
Speaker: That does sound good.
Speaker: Man.
Speaker: Well, that gives me some hope a little bit there for Indiana Jones and Star Wars.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, and I don't know.
Speaker: I might be completely wrong.
Speaker: Anyways.
Speaker: Well, okay, so then maybe that's not the best example.
Speaker: Let's just pretend.
Speaker: Maybe like the gaffer wasn't a Christian.
Speaker: The gaffer was not a Christian, so those lights were unholy lights.
Speaker: Oh.
Speaker: But I do feel like there is, there can be Christian truths deeply infused into secular made art.
Speaker: And I don't know what you guys think, but I've wondered if that's just because of like the image of God that's implanted in everyone or like our conscience that maybe God puts in us or where that comes from.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: I've always thought, and I'm totally blanking on the term now, but there's different categories of grace that sometimes are referred to theologically.
Speaker: And I don't remember for the life of me.
Speaker: Common grace.
Speaker: Common grace.
Speaker: That's it.
Speaker: I've always felt that that was part of the common grace.
Speaker: So the way I viewed it is...
Speaker: You know, God wants us all to be with him.
Speaker: A lot of people aren't going to be with him, but he's like, well, okay, but I can still bless them and give them some grace in this life because he loves them.
Speaker: And so I've always... The just and the unjust.
Speaker: So I've always felt like there's some of that in art too, where he's like, yeah, maybe this person...
Speaker: has rejected me or doesn't know about me.
Speaker: But I still please to give them the grace to use their art and to let others see me through their art.
Speaker: That's kind of where I've categorized that as.
Speaker: Like God's grace is just so...
Speaker: Incredible.
Speaker: I'm trying to avoid using the word amazing.
Speaker: And call to mind the hymn.
Speaker: But it's just, it's just, you can't escape it so much.
Speaker: So that even if you really want to go the other way and you make a movie like Joker, God might still use that to be like, well, let's just show somebody human depravity and see what they do with that.
Speaker: And maybe that, you know, causes somebody to be like, well, crap, I don't want to end up like him, you know?
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Yeah, God is like, I think C.S.
Speaker: Lewis talks about this in the Screwtape Letters, about like, Screwtape just talks about how unfair God is because he uses like everything to his good, even like the bad stuff.
Speaker: He like uses that to his good too.
Speaker: And it's like, that's unfair from the devil's perspective.
Speaker: Like, come on.
Speaker: I love all the little reversals and screw tape letters.
Speaker: They're just the best.
Speaker: It's delightful.
Speaker: So we talked a lot about the end product of art.
Speaker: How, in you guys' experience, do you think the process of actually creating, whether by yourself or with a community of people, is different in light of a Christian worldview and belief in Christ?
Speaker: I think part of it is we have...
Speaker: We have the Holy Spirit in us, and he is a guide to truth.
Speaker: Like, I mean, like Jesus says, that he will remind you of truth, basically.
Speaker: And so we're not going in blind.
Speaker: We have something blind.
Speaker: We have a direction.
Speaker: We have boundaries, which is really important in art because if you don't have boundaries, it's just chaos and pointless.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: And...
Speaker: So that's part of it.
Speaker: I think Nate and I have talked before about how in art it can feel like Michelangelo chiseling David out of the piece of marble.
Speaker: And that there's already something there to bring out.
Speaker: Rather than creating from scratch, you're actually bringing out what should be there.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, I think that's probably something that secular artists feel as well, but that doesn't mean that it's not a gift from God.
Speaker: Common grace.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: That like in my graphic designing, sometimes I'll get the feeling that, you know, things need to line up this certain way because that is like the...
Speaker: the way it's supposed to be and stuff.
Speaker: And I'm making something new.
Speaker: And of course there are like principles you want to, you know, align to and, and things like that.
Speaker: But it does feel like sometimes we're given a thing that we're just need to like, we're responsible then for bringing out.
Speaker: Well, I definitely have that a lot when I'm doing writing too.
Speaker: I don't think I have that.
Speaker: Well, sometimes I have that one with acting, but with acting you're, you're handed something that's already made.
Speaker: So it is already naturally that bringing out this thing that exists.
Speaker: But a lot of times when I'm writing, I'll just be going, and my wife will do this too, because we write separate things, but we talk about it.
Speaker: And we're just like, dude, the character did this.
Speaker: And it's like we're experiencing the story.
Speaker: Like I said, I started on this second book, and I was writing the second chapter, so I'm like 15 pages in, and this giant political move is made that I wasn't expecting.
Speaker: I was just writing, and I was like, this is just kind of what the characters would be doing.
Speaker: And I'm like, oh, yeah, this is what the characters would be doing.
Speaker: I'm just kind of typing and typing.
Speaker: And all of a sudden, there's like –
Speaker: the character's just like completely ousted.
Speaker: And our main group of characters now have zero power to do anything that they need to do in the plot.
Speaker: And I'm like, what the heck?
Speaker: Oh no!
Speaker: But it like can't be anything else because that's just how the characters are, you know?
Speaker: And it's like they're... A lot of times I feel like it feels like the art is coming to you to be revealed, which could just be God giving that to you.
Speaker: Or it could be God...
Speaker: Blessing us with some idea of what his relationship to us as created beings is like as the creator.
Speaker: I don't know.
Speaker: I feel like that's a mystery kind of thing, but I totally vibe with that.
Speaker: Yeah, I think I've definitely felt what you what you're describing of like, especially when you've created a character, they do kind of like you've almost given them a life of their own by making them authentic and then following that authenticity to its end.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Um, with the, with the children's book I'm working on right now, though, it's a little bit more abstract, like fairy tale ish where you're living, you're in a world where anything can happen.
Speaker: It's not very character driven, um, because, um,
Speaker: just like any fairy tale really if you go back and read them um the characters are kind of these like ambiguous like um fillers yeah they're there so the story can happen yes they're really just more ideas and vessels and abstract things yeah
Speaker: Yeah, in a way they really are though.
Speaker: And so I've almost found it harder to bring this story to life.
Speaker: And so I found myself actually kind of praying through it because I had all these like ideas of, ooh, wouldn't it be cool if...
Speaker: And I think that that's really dangerous to art.
Speaker: Because it's taking you away from the authenticity of it and putting you into this more abstract, undirected realm.
Speaker: Or almost overly directed by you.
Speaker: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker: Not following the truth, but just following your whim of like, oh, just this would be cool, which maybe is more of a surface level thing.
Speaker: It makes you think, I remember hearing someone from the Mary Tyler Moore 1970s sitcom show talk about how on the show they...
Speaker: they tried to do what would be true to the characters in that there was things that they could have done, the writers, the actors could have done, to, like, guarantee a laugh.
Speaker: Like, this is going to come out of left field, and it's going to be, boom, a laugh.
Speaker: But they're not going to do that because that's not what these characters would do, even though it's a comedy, and they're there for the laughs.
Speaker: But, you know...
Speaker: You're not going to have a longevity show that just goes off of like tricking the audience into laughing almost.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so then from a Christian perspective, I suppose it's, it's trusting the Holy spirit.
Speaker: Well, okay.
Speaker: Here's a, here's an application for it.
Speaker: Um, cause a lot of this is just difference between good art and shallow art, you know?
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: For the, for the Christian people,
Speaker: It's trusting the Holy Spirit to lead you into what is true.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: But also trusting the Holy Spirit to use the art to achieve whatever it wants.
Speaker: This will eventually be a broader topic, which is bad Christian art.
Speaker: But I think a lot of times, especially I think in the evangelical American culture, we have a problem as Christians where we feel like
Speaker: You have to like do ministry to be used for God.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And so I think a lot of times Christian artists are like, oh, well, my art should be ministry.
Speaker: And so they're almost like I have to evangelize with my art, which I think you can do for sure.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: I've seen people do that successfully.
Speaker: But I think you run into a problem when you try and control the outcome.
Speaker: And I think when we were hanging out the other night, we talked a little bit about this too.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: ultimately that's God that controls that you're just there to plant the seed.
Speaker: Exactly.
Speaker: And so what you're creating is just that seed.
Speaker: And so if all God gives you, I've, I've been thinking about this with Hamlet too, because I think there's a redemptive piece to Hamlet, but it's very subtle and a little bit abstract because the character is very abstract.
Speaker: Um, and I've played a lot of characters that I just really hate playing because they're evil, mean characters.
Speaker: Um, but,
Speaker: And there's not a redemptive piece to them.
Speaker: And I'm like, what is this even going to do?
Speaker: But just giving that to God and trusting him with the outcome as opposed to being like, I'm going to end my movie by having everybody text everybody, God's not dead.
Speaker: Right, right.
Speaker: It's like kind of like... So then I started revival.
Speaker: We got this all on our own, God.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: You don't need to do any more work.
Speaker: We got them texting.
Speaker: We got them saying the prayer.
Speaker: We're good.
Speaker: We have the whole plan.
Speaker: Yeah, and it's just like Jesus' parable or a little saying about the seed, like you put in the ground and like you don't know what it's doing down there.
Speaker: You don't know how it comes up and how it grows.
Speaker: And I think that's a great application for art.
Speaker: And then that, of course, then ties like you were saying to...
Speaker: We're on God's stage in his big story that he's writing and we get to be ad-libbing characters, as you put it the other night.
Speaker: We were hanging out.
Speaker: And so it's just a good thing to remember of...
Speaker: how we don't know what our little things we do in life are going to impact someone, good or bad, really.
Speaker: And so the bad part is kind of scary and a good motivation not to be bad, but then also hope that the love that you do, that you don't know what good it's going to do, maybe just what somebody needs.
Speaker: Yeah, I mean, 20 years down the road, one small act of...
Speaker: kindness or of mentioning God in the relationship
Speaker: 20 years down the road might change somebody's life and you might not even be friends with them anymore.
Speaker: You might not know that, but God has the power to do that and you don't.
Speaker: And, and all glory to him for doing that because probably the thing you did wasn't really that great.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: Especially enough yourself, you know, I don't know if this is a true story, but I heard it.
Speaker: That's all that counts.
Speaker: I heard this.
Speaker: To be fair, we've been talking about a lot of fake stories in the last hour.
Speaker: It's purported to be true, and maybe it is, but...
Speaker: there was a man who I think was like super depressed and was like maybe like gonna kill himself I think but he saw like a homeless hobo walking in a field whistling and it's like if this like homeless hobo
Speaker: can have joy enough in him to whistle, then, okay, maybe I do have some hope in my life.
Speaker: And I think that guy's son, the guy who then didn't kill himself, was then one of the great hymn writers or preachers, like one of the Wesleys or something, someone in that range of people there.
Speaker: And I like to think about that, of how just, yeah, even going about your own life,
Speaker: With joy.
Speaker: I sometimes struggle with that.
Speaker: Like I enjoy enjoying life, but then I don't know that that really does the world much good, but maybe it does sometimes that they sink and see that there's hope and that there is joy.
Speaker: though, you know, all the much better to bring them into it, too.
Speaker: For sure.
Speaker: I would love to keep going on, but we are getting close to our wrap-up time, so I will ask you our final question of the day.
Speaker: I feel like now I'm a game show host.
Speaker: You have one last question, and that is, what are some resources that you guys have found helpful or that you would recommend to young or even old
Speaker: just any Christian artist, anybody who's wanting to deepen their understanding and their theology of art and their faith, what would you guys recommend that they go to?
Speaker: Well, I'll say I was really excited to find a podcast that really talks about this intersection of Christianity and art.
Speaker: And it was called Artists of the White.
Speaker: No, there's another podcast.
Speaker: There's another podcast.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: called Stories Are Soul Food and one of the hosts is Andy Wilson who wrote writes a bunch of middle grade novels like A Hundred Cupboards and I actually never read any of his books but the podcast is super interesting and that they talk about
Speaker: They talk about stories and use the analogy of stories are soul food for us.
Speaker: And are you eating junk food?
Speaker: Are you feeding people through your stories, nourishing food?
Speaker: And they talk specifically about movies and books and why they're good and why they're not and all the things around that.
Speaker: So that's really entertaining.
Speaker: Cool.
Speaker: I am going to be really...
Speaker: singularly focused today, I guess, because that's how I get.
Speaker: But I would recommend reading George MacDonald just because his stuff has opened up my mind a lot to a new kind of truth, I guess.
Speaker: And I guess that's like a, it's the truth of what cannot be defined.
Speaker: mystery.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: And all this stuff that happens in his books is fantastic and is kind of wacky.
Speaker: Like, wait, what, what just happened?
Speaker: Why did that happen?
Speaker: And it's like, you know, you have these moments of like, what?
Speaker: And yet I still come away with it feeling like I read something that was true.
Speaker: And,
Speaker: And even just the mystery of that is eye-opening.
Speaker: But yes, but it's definitely opened my eyes to the fact that truth doesn't have to be this definable, short and sweet, to the point thing.
Speaker: speaks to how God is bigger than our ability to comprehend in neat and tidy ways.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker: And that to God, it's, you know, neat and tidy and also artistic and, and huge and wonderful, but we can't comprehend all that.
Speaker: But, um, we can still get a taste in undefinable ways.
Speaker: Mm hmm.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker: It makes me think of, of light, how there's just small range of light that we are able to see.
Speaker: And I think that's kind of what like God's character is and what is God, but truth, you know, that's what Jesus says.
Speaker: Um, that he is the truth.
Speaker: And I think
Speaker: the truth lends color to this world, uh, lens definition and beauty, but that it's only a small range that we are able to see and understand and that there's so much more beyond that.
Speaker: Um,
Speaker: And art in some ways like expands our range and just like some light waves we've been able to use for other purposes.
Speaker: And yet we don't still fully understand them or are able to fully comprehend the whole range of the spectrum of light.
Speaker: But the glimpse we get defines the world and
Speaker: brings beauty to it and if nothing else it's like at least good to know that there is a range right bigger than our own and that gives us hope for a future of like being able to step into that you know in the new world yeah absolutely that's that's something i want to talk a lot about in the future is is that is that mystery and that unknowable
Speaker: and our limitedness and embracing that, which I think we struggle to do.
Speaker: But I'm not going to talk about it now because this has been an hour-long podcast and it's been a great discussion.
Speaker: So thank you, guys.
Speaker: Tune in for more.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker: Yes, next episode we're going to be having another friend on to talk about the inverse, which is why art is important to your faith.
Speaker: So that will be great.
Speaker: Definitely check that out.
Speaker: Like and share.
Speaker: If you like this, as Nate said, definitely give us a follow.
Speaker: We'd love to hear feedback from you guys.
Speaker: Anything you think would be cool for us to talk about or tackle in the future with different guests.
Speaker: Visit our website.
Speaker: Visit the blog.
Speaker: If you're loving this podcast, give it a share.
Speaker: Let people know.
Speaker: I, as an artist, have really wanted a resource or a hub where there can be people who can talk about Christ and faith, and that's what I'm hoping this nurtures.
Speaker: So definitely share it.
Speaker: Give us your feedback.
Speaker: Let us know.
Speaker: what you want to hear and who you want to hear, I will pester whatever celebrity.
Speaker: I'll pester James Mangold and we'll find out if he's actually a Christian.
Speaker: And we're not going to end this podcast until we find out.
Speaker: But once we find out when James Mangold's a Christian, this podcast shuts down.
Speaker: So we're going to delay that.
Speaker: We will.
Speaker: If he tells me, I'm going to just store that episode in the memory bags until it's done.
Speaker: Thank you all so much for joining us.
Speaker: Go out and continue to glorify God as you walk through the journey of life with Christ, as you follow his way, and as you live that out through your heart.
Speaker: Pray that God blesses you.
