Spider-Man: Brand New Day

Transcript

Speaker: Casual Nerdity is a podcast celebrating and discussing pop culture that we love. Movies, TVs, comics, books, games, you name it. Our aim is to talk about the good, what worked, and yeah, sometimes what didn't.

Speaker: All with an eye towards its building up, not tearing down. Thanks for joining us.

Speaker: Welcome back to Casual Nerdity. It's time for us to swing back into the Marvel Cinematic Universe as we talk about Spider-Man Brand New Day.

Speaker: Yeah! I'm Daryl, and with me as usual, I have... Nick. And Lauren. Yay! So a bunch of us went on the weekend and we saw a brand new day. And as always, we'll start with our spoiler-free thoughts on the movie, what we liked, what we didn't, whether we think it's worth your time. Then we'll give you a clear warning before we dive into full spoiler mode to break down the story, the characters, the big moments, everything this movie might mean for Spider-Man's future.

Speaker: Oh yeah. So as well as that of the MCU. Yes. So whether you're still deciding if you want to see it or if you've already raced home from the theater, stick around. It's time to talk Spider-Man brand new day. So we'll start off with non-spoiler.

Speaker: I'm just going to start off with my initial thought. I think I, that this might be the strongest of the MCU Spider-Man movies. Yeah, I'd agree. i think that it definitely is the most Spider-Man of the MCU Spider-Man movies, that's for sure. Yes. Nick and I were talking yesterday, and even though there is still some of this in this movie, to date, the MCU Spider-Man movies felt like, rather than being called Spider-Man, they should have been named after another Spider-Man title that Marvel used to have, Marvel Team-Up.

Speaker: Mm hmm. I see. where Definitely a lot of that still here in the makeup. I'd say that one of the major parts of make it feel like a Spider-Man movie is some of the best Spider-Man choreography I've seen.

Speaker: Oh, yeah. We got web-swinging action in this one. Yes. Which is something that they intentionally left out of the earlier movies because it had been done so thoroughly by, you know, the the other Spider-Men before. like I mean, it's kind of hard to beat The Amazing Spider-Man. Like, one of the few things that The Amazing Spider-Man did great was its web-swinging sequences.

Speaker: But this is, like, on par, if not better, than those were. and And that's that's high praise. I'll go to back like like the the first swings of both Amazing Spider-Man and spiderman Amazing Spider-Man 2. Some of my favorite moments.

Speaker: Well, i'm I'm going to say that I knew that we were in good hands with this movie when they announced that it was going to be directed by Destin Daniel Cretton.

Speaker: Because he does some amazing action choreography and scenes. you know Shang-Chi and The Legend of the Ten Rings, I will say...

Speaker: had I'm going to go out on a limb and say it has the best fight choreography of all 38 now MCU movies.

Speaker: Ooh, I see. um And I'd say it's easily the best Spider-Man fight sequence in that it feels so kinetic and frenetic. Like only sequences, the only person that could, that you could only make sequences with this with a character like Spider-Man, the movement, the action type.

Speaker: His agility. Yeah. It's so good. And you this this isn't really a spoiler. We kind of got this in the trailers, but there's a real sense of isolation that we see in Peter in this movie. And the way the movie goes about it is a really good example of show, don't tell.

Speaker: Because we see that he's in a routine. We see that he's full-time into Spider-Man. Now, let's not question how he can pay for, you know, anything.

Speaker: yeah Peter Parker's been wiped away and he's being Spider-Man full-time, there's no indication of a job or anything. Maybe he's a hero for hire.

Speaker: No, that's Luke Cage and Danny Rand. that That better be coming on Disney Plus after Born Again Season 2 or Season 3. Anyway, maybe Tony Stark left him some money that maybe somehow survived the effects of the spell. I don't know, but that's beside the point.

Speaker: But he has no personal life. The closest thing to a personal life is he has is visiting May's grave apparently daily. Mm-hmm. And even Tom Holland's kind of just, his hair is messy in this movie. And he said in an interview that it wasn't so much a conscious styling choice. It was just kind of a a side effect of him working on this and the Odyssey at the same time.

Speaker: But it works for the character and gives us a picture of somebody who's just kind of given up everything except this masked identity and mission. Yeah, it's ah it's pretty intense. you know ah Before hanging out with y'all, I had isolated myself a lot personally, and it was ah it really brought back those memories of that period of time. and it's ah you know it's it's Like I said, it's very intense. It's very ah very relatable to me in that regard, where sometimes that happens, and I might get more into that element in the spoilery section.

Speaker: And that is a that is also a major part of the character of Spider-Man and why he ah resonates with a lot of, lot of comic readers is that he goes through these phases of either putting himself very out there and it biting him, him back or him isolating in that biting him back.

Speaker: The old Parker luck. edit then And he has it in spades in this film. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, i I know it would have been a little too precious, but you kind of wanted his landlord to be Mr. Ditkovich.

Speaker: Kind of, yeah. But it would have been a little too precious calling back to the Toby movies like that. And they already did that with Jameson in the last one. Yeah.

Speaker: Which, interesting side note, I saw a snippet of an interview with J.K. Simmons recently. where he was talking about coming back for the MCU's version of Jameson.

Speaker: And the the reason MCU Jameson looks like J.K. Simmons rather than J. Jonah Jameson is because they literally called him and he agreed to do it the day before he shot the Far From Home post-credits scene.

Speaker: Oh, wow. Yeah. And that's before, like, the original script for Far From Home had the multiverse stuff as a end gag, not as part of the story.

Speaker: Well, far Far From Home, not No Way Home. Oh, yeah. I was talking about like, so the excuse was like, it was a veryless originally people were like, oh, so that's how it's part of the multiverse stuff.

Speaker: But this is the but like, even when they were talking about that, that was not even like the major plot point. They just wanted him back for JK. Just wanted JK Simmons back. Yeah. unbe understandable yeah they They called him the day before he filmed that post-credits scene, and he filmed it in someone's office at Marvel Studios.

Speaker: Amazing. They slapped a green screen behind somebody's desk at Marvel Studios, and he filmed it the day after they called him. But it worked for the... Again, like, praising a movie that we aren't watching today with It worked for what they were going for, giving him that pseudo-Alex Jones InfoWars look. Yeah.

Speaker: But back to this this movie, Michael Giacchino's music is, as always, on point. And I recognized even during the opening music ah that I knew something was the same but different about the Spider-Man theme.

Speaker: I recognized the, I think, uh, It wasn't until I watched the new Rockstars breakdown that it it's missing some of the beats and towards the end. I mean, i I knew that it sounded the same but different. And what he said is that since Peter was removed from the world, he took his priv previous theme and removed notes.

Speaker: and that But it's like, it's sort of that one of those themes, it's sort of like when you're in a flow of writing something, you fill in the blanks. it's like So I was listening to it in the theater, is like but it wasn't until like ah maybe a minute later, i was like, wait, something felt off.

Speaker: It was like... Interesting. Even though I was like, that' that's the Spider-Man theme, that's the King of Spider-Man theme, but it's like, wait, something felt off when I was listening to it.

Speaker: Because even though my brain was filling in the blanks, I was like, wait, there was something missing here. And I also thought that The Punisher was pitch perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. The Punisher should be rated R. No, no. He's worked fine for decades at the equivalent of PG-13, and that's when he hit his spike in popularity. So, no, he was perfect. I loved him.

Speaker: I'm not only somebody who enjoys the Punisher very much. He's not really my thing. But even in this particular movie, you know, I think he worked out pretty well. And I'm going to say that in general, I think that Spider-Man's representation of the MC, c the broader MCU in this movie was done very well because in the first three MCU Spider-Man movies, ah the broader in the Marvel Cinematic Universe broadly kind of overwhelmed those movies to some degree.

Speaker: And in this movie, there there are a lot of characters involved Yeah.

Speaker: but it feels like they they help enhance the spiderman elements because fightiderman has basically always been a character who has existed in a larger universe But he's not always been directly connected too much of that broader universe. And I think the fact that this movie deals so much with isolation definitely helps that because he's not being directly impacted by most of the other it broader MCU characters for the most part.

Speaker: But then also, most of the broader MCU characters that he interacts with aren't, like, core to the broader MCU. Some of them are even new, I think, for the most part.

Speaker: And so, in that regard, it's very different from him interacting with Iron Man or Iron Man's legacy whenever Iron Man was such a central figure to the universe in at that time.

Speaker: Yeah, I mean, the MCU Punisher hasn't even been on the big screen until this. Yeah. He's been TV only. The closest he gets is to a cameo to what is going to be a major part, just one part of ah of the team going into the into the next movie this year.

Speaker: Yeah. But we, one of the things that I think worked with the Punisher in this is, and his dynamic with Spider-Man is that John Bernthal and Tom Holland have known each other since Tom Holland was like 10.

Speaker: ten Oh, wow. Wow. they They worked on Broadway and in movies together and TV shows together. So they've known each other for most of Tom Holland's life. And the two of them filmed one another's MCU audition tapes while they were working on a movie together.

Speaker: Nice. So Tom Holland filmed Bernthal's, Bernthal filmed Tom Holland's, and Bernthal's the one who told Tom Holland, do a backflip into the shot at the beginning of your audition tape. And Tom Holland has said he's been told that's what got him the job.

Speaker: Nice. I mean, the fact that Tom Holland has that physicality has really, is the one thing that has really helped. Like, the fact that the boy can do his own stunts in a lot of ways.

Speaker: yeah he's He's got the dance background to give that physicality of Spider-Man. And something that helped with the visuals of the movie as a whole is that even a lot of the web swinging effects, whether it was Tom Holland or a stunt double, were done practically.

Speaker: yeah Especially when they were down closer to street level. Which has been a thing that's been sort of like, they've always sort of been like, you can't really get the web swinging to look right Spider-Man.

Speaker: an actual guy. But they proved they could. Hold bureau. That's basically what they did. Yep. Hold my bureau, Tom Holland's non-alcoholic beer line, which was in every scene in the bodega.

Speaker: Yeah. nice It was in every scene in the bodega. ah he get Considering the chops he had for this acting, he earned that extra little revenue right there.

Speaker: Yes. Now, what other... Those are my big non-spoilery notes. What others do the two of you possibly have before we quick much quicker than normal dive into spoiler territory?

Speaker: its It's kind of difficult to talk about this movie without diving into spoiler territory because... the That's basic. that There's one mystery on everyone's lips. But Lauren, you go first before we have any remarks. As somebody who personally doesn't care about spoilers to even the slightest degree, I always have a very difficult time determining what to put here at all. So I'm just not going to put anything here at all. That is fair. How about you, Nick? Or are we ready?

Speaker: i I'll add in my one final bit. I'd say that of this but of the current crop of MCU movies, this is one that is the easily the most approachable for a general audience and for for fans of just the Spider-Man part of the MCU.

Speaker: you Again, that's not going into spoilers, but it does give a lot of stuff that you can look forward to going into the future of Spider-Man and the MCU. So I say that it's but it's you get all the information you need going in, so you don't feel left out.

Speaker: Right. Yeah. and I feel that's always a good good sign, especially since this movie is the new chapter in the Spider-Man movies. Yeah. So are we are we ready to to mark our spoiler break? I think so.

Speaker: All right. So we're about to have about two and a half minutes before we go into spoilers because we're going to mark it with the final trailer for the movie just because I think most of the at least the opening half's dialogue is pretty pertinent for the spoiler discussion.

Speaker: Yeah. Hi, my name is Peter Parker. I have something to tell you that's gonna sound crazy.

Speaker: But it's the truth.

Speaker: You're the Spider-Man. can't tell anybody about this. Gotta keep it a secret. Okay. Thank you.

Speaker: Everybody good? Yeah, Spider-Man!

Speaker: We used to know each other.

Speaker: We were together.

Speaker: But something bad was gonna happen.

Speaker: Me. And the only way to stop it was to do the hard thing. You're gonna forget who i am. What? What are you talking about? I'm gonna come and find you.

Speaker: And I'll explain everything. You're better. I love you. I love just waiting until you see me again.

Speaker: My name is Peter Parker and like a coffee. there anything else?

Speaker: Maybe I'll never read this to you. No. Maybe I'm just writing this for me.

Speaker: And maybe that's my responsibility, to live alone with the truth.

Speaker: because I'm not just Peter Parker. I'm Spider-Man. We're faced with a threat that can be anyone. You sure you want to do this, Scorpion? You think I'm Scorpion?

Speaker: Talk to Banner? oh

Speaker: I'm sorry, but you're in danger. What? I promised you that I would keep you safe. Please, you just have to trust me. Come on. Fine. You're the only one who can sense it. Hey, can we do this one at a time, please? You're the only one who can defeat it.

Speaker: The Spidey Tracker app says that Spider-Man is in the direct vicinity. Oh yeah? No way, that's crazy. here but

Speaker: That was a fun trailer. that That was a fun trailer, and and like it actually you summed up a lot of what the movie deals with without telling you a lot just like Just like the movie itself, it does set up like, here's the important character beats. Here's the important stuff you need to know going right into the movie.

Speaker: And speaking of going right into the movie, we're in spoiler territory. So ah to me, my X-Men. Let's not waste any time. Let's talk about the Jean Grey of it all.

Speaker: Oh, yeah. So i I am surprised that they did indeed introduce an actual MCU X-Men character in a Sony movie.

Speaker: and then A bold choice. Among many bold choices. But that's these are the boldest choices to be like, Sony, we're going to throw you the weirdest bone right now. like You're going to sanitize with our X-Men stuff that we're doing right now.

Speaker: And another bold choice is ah she was a flat-out villain in this. Basically, yeah. i I've been reading so many very contradictory and people who are and terrible takes about how she's not a villain or she's better for Peter. It's like, I don't know why. they The discourse is is is crazy, but no, I understand that she is the villain A villain in this movie, but the villain, I think.

Speaker: I think of them. yeah no granted

Speaker: Granted, I just have one viewing behind me, but and we were talking about this yesterday. I'm having a hard time seeing this as a Jean Grey that I'm going to want to root for when the X-Men get here in full force.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. yeah like because Because the story that she has in this movie... like well put First thing we'll say, Sadie Sink does a great job playing the role. Oh, yeah. But you can continue now with the role, though.

Speaker: Well, I mean what could have been maintained as righteous anger on her part, because the story that she's given, she has every reason to be angry.

Speaker: But they dialed it up to the point that she was a cruel, malicious, vile person who attempted murder multiple times.

Speaker: um And then there's the rooftop scene. God, I, the rooftop scene is very intense. It is,

Speaker: I'm just going to say it. Before we get into the rooftop scene, because it's worth chewing all on its own. Yeah. But prior to that, I mean, there's no way she could have anticipated Spider-Man or the Punisher would have tried to stop the tank that was loaded down with explosives.

Speaker: This is true. She had no intention of getting the old woman out of there. Yeah. So there was no way she could have foreseen that either of them were going to get involved in the tank, in stopping the tank, or clear any of the damage control agents out of the way before it blew up.

Speaker: She... Tossed the the damage control agent off of the roof to distract Spider-Man. So if Spider-Man doesn't save him, he dies.

Speaker: She walks a man out into a traffic. And he gets hit. walks a man out into distract into traffic who gets hit by a taxi and bounces off of it.

Speaker: Again, I knew rock stars like that guys did. I... yeah i don't I wouldn't think that's fast enough for Dev, but that if he's definitely hurt. He's definitely hurt, but she she effectively has no problem with walking him into into a situation that's dangerous.

Speaker: Yeah. He couldn't know what car was going to hit him. The the car hitting him could have been a truck for all he could have. And she, at the end of the rooftop scene, you know there's another attempt there. Now, the the only one that could even remotely be considered a so-called crime of passion, something that is happening in the moment in her anger when she is just purely enraged is Metzger, when she's holding Metzger at multiple glass shard points.

Speaker: Yes. And even then, she's still in a measured enough control to not immediately do it. Yeah. So, all of these are willingness, if not attempts, willingness to commit premeditated murder.

Speaker: Yes.

Speaker: And...

Speaker: It's messed mess up enough, but also the way her sort of body hopping is portrayed. Oh, yes, it's quite freaky.

Speaker: It's the fact that there is one. It's a clear blankness. You are gone. There's no you. It's her.

Speaker: You're just... Boom, you're her. But there's also the physicality of it when you're moving, which means there's like a physical aspect to that that's causing people to like move. And so they recognize they their mind has been sort of hit with something.

Speaker: They don't know what it was, but I'm pretty sure they recognize that was unusual. Yeah, like MJ explains that she doesn't remember anything of what happened.

Speaker: Yeah. That's a pretty fri critical plot point right there. Yeah. they don't They don't remember anything. But it's like... absolutely and No awareness that anything happened other than fact that they're suddenly in a different spot.

Speaker: yeah the The physicality of her... What what her... they They call them the inhabited in the credits... yeah what What they call what the physicality of the inhabited when she moves from one to another doesn't look pleasant either.

Speaker: It looks kind of like a body spasm. Like, like yeah like you know, when you have like a like like a cramp and it's like your body goes like, ugh. Yeah. It's like, it doesn't look like the ability, the fact that she can move quickly between bodies has a pleasant outcome, and it doesn't... So I recognize that they may not know what exactly happened, but they can definitely, like, I'd imagine they feel, like, sore after that.

Speaker: Well, we know that that one guy definitely feels sore, if he feels anything. yeah. Below the back, yeah.

Speaker: But, you know, i think... yeah Yeah, I think from from a thematic purpose, from a thematic standpoint, Gene in this movie is definitely meant to parallel Spider-Man.

Speaker: Spider-Man is dealing with not having anybody in his life. He's dealing with isolation. And in turn, that is literally turning him into a monster. It's intensifying his spider powers and they're taking control of his mind.

Speaker: But Gene Gray in this movie represents a more... mundane form of that in which she has also essentially lost everybody that she cares about. She, as far as we, as far as I can tell, she doesn't have anyone in her life either.

Speaker: And while, well, Spider-Man's isolation is turning him into a monster in a more physical genetic sort of way. Grey represents the danger of this isolation, the danger it has on one psyche in a more conventional way, honestly, because that that's why she's able to do these cruel things is because she doesn't care about people anymore. She also represents how fast somebody could drop off in similar circumstances and

Speaker: If they didn't have that support, it's explained that she didn't have anyone supporting her growing up. So she didn't have the initial moral fiber that, you know, centralizing moral force that's kept Spider-Man together for so long. It's she is a representation of what Spider-Man could be if he didn't change the way that he's acting.

Speaker: And I think that lets make the the connection yeah the connection that she and Spider-Man make at the end of the movie helped to show that she is going, much as much like how Spider-Man changed in this movie, getting connected with people again.

Speaker: i feel like that's showing that Jean is herself also going to start connecting with people again. And Spider-Man... helped her to do that. Similar to how Spider-Man helped all of his, all of the multiversal villains in the previous live action movie, Spider-Man helped her as well, I think.

Speaker: And yeah I think that Spider-Man's impact on her is going to substantially change her. It's, he's going to heal her in the way that he himself was healed in this movie.

Speaker: And I think that's going to fundamentally change who she is as a person. And I think that her saving Spider-Man at the end of this movie is the first major sign of that.

Speaker: It's her first sign that she's managed to connect with somebody for the first time and who knows how long. And yeah I don't think it's only to be the last time. It's sort of her...

Speaker: It's also us seeing because Jean Grey is shown like her powers are discovered early on and she meets but she also meets with Charles o Xavier, who is able to, depending on the story, either contain or help her grasp her powers.

Speaker: Yes. This is a Jean Grey without that. and and put into a much more threatful situation with no support. This one doesn't even have her parents, which she did have in her previous, in most of her story origins.

Speaker: And see, I think that is part of my issue with the movie's portrayal of Jean. And that is that I'm coming to it with the baggage of familiarity with the character.

Speaker: And that this is the character who was had such a strong moral center that she was able to make an all-powerful cosmic being see the horrors that it had committed and take itself out in her form.

Speaker: And she's also the heart of the X-Men. Her, Scott, and the original team with Professor X is a reason why they're like, that it that's especially in and the X-Men 97 series, they're so pivotal to the point point that the team nearly breaks apart because ah because if they're of their willingness to maybe move on.

Speaker: yeah Yeah, you know, I think that one thing is that this just isn't this just isn't really Jean Grey by any substantial measure. Her powers are different from Jean Grey's.

Speaker: Her backstory is different from Jean Grey's. Her morality is different from Jean Grey's. it's this and it's just just really It's really just a different character altogether. and guess like get a yeah i was having that that thought, and there there's an X-Men adjacent character who has these powers and a pretty similar backstory, they they could have made her karma. They wouldn't have been able to cast Sadie Sink, who is perfect casting for Jean, but, you know, Shan Khoi Man does not have the name recognition that Jean Grey does.

Speaker: yeah like, it's, it's bizarre that we have Jean with a lot of, of the of the of like the the the serial numbers filed off in order to make this character that, yes, does work as a foil to Spider-Man in this, but is he seeing Grey?

Speaker: i makes me wonder one of two things. The first thing it makes me wonder is, are they already prepping yet another third speed run to Dark Phoenix. Oh boy. or since it is widely believed, not confirmed, but widely believed that after Secret Wars, which is allegedly the next time we're going to be seeing Sadie Sink as Jean,

Speaker: After Secret Wars, there's supposed to be at least a soft reboot to the MCU. u a Will Jean be affected by that reboot and become more of a traditional Jean?

Speaker: don't know. There's some risk to that because, again, as you as you very well said, Lauren, the the story has set her up to go on a better path. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: And I can agree with that. But also, is i don't see that better path being hurt her growing into a gene that we'd see in a traditional X-Men story.

Speaker: And i I think what the the big sticking point to me in the characterization that gives gives me such a hard time seeing her, you even if if we want to say that there is a quote unquote redemption arc, the the line that she crossed that makes it hard for me to see her becoming closer to a gene we we've mentioned it before. So let's start chewing on it.

Speaker: The rooftop scene. Yeah. The rooftop scene. bad Because.

Speaker: so at So, anyone listening to this part of the episode has probably seen the movie, I hope, because we are in spoiler territory. But just to set the stage to remind anyone, she's threatened MJ because she found Peter's apartment. She found the letter from the end of No Way Home and that was in the trailer that we played.

Speaker: But Sid mentioned a very funny bit about that is that he's holding the letter, but also so the kit the person who's controlling is holding it. So that's why he kind of has to puppet them like that.

Speaker: Yeah. And detail and so she She threatens MJ. Peter goes to rescue MJ. And she's like, why is Spider-Man here? And he's like, you I promised to protect you, but you're in danger. You have to go. And she's like, well, okay. That was also in the trailer.

Speaker: And he takes her beyond... the radius that he's established that Gene can jump into there on the rooftop of silver cup studios. Uh, you know, you, you kind of wonder, he know, is, ah Connor McLeod and the Kurgan battling underneath them?

Speaker: No, no, no. That was decades ago. Um, but they, uh, yeah he's He's talking to her. They have a conversation. She's like, you know, i feel like yeah we must have known one another. And ah he kisses her and or she kisses him and they takes off the mask.

Speaker: Yeah, it takes off the mask and she she starts you know saying you know she starts saying that she remembers and that she's so glad that he he found her again. And they're hugging tightly. you know Peter is crying tears of joy and the other shoe drops and she says, go ahead, touch her. You know you want to.

Speaker: And we just lost cabin pressure and everything has, the vibe has changed. You could feel the air leave the theater. and Because you could feel.

Speaker: you The lines hurt, but it's true. We did want to believe in fairy tales. Yeah. And I mean, part of me was, there back part of me was expecting it, but I still wasn't ready for it.

Speaker: Yeah. Because like... Like that

Speaker: ah you Kudos to... to ah Tom Holland. You could see his heart breaking... Yeah, but you could see his heart ripped out in front of him. Oh yeah, that that was the first of three times that this movie broke my heart.

Speaker: and um I was like, oh. but And then she's just... She keeps going. She keeps jabbing and jabbing and jabbing.

Speaker: And it triggers... It's less jabbing. It's more twisting the knife, like, deeper. And then it it triggers that, you know, more aggressive...

Speaker: spider side of peter that's been developing because of the isolation that you touched on lauren and you know he's holding her over the edge of the building and i could she can see how some people would be like i can see how some people would be like spider-man that's that's hurt no that's he's not thinking wrestling right now and that's not mj Yeah, well, i mean, we had already established a couple of scenes earlier that when that side of him takes over, he's he's not thinking, he's acting on instinct. Yeah.

Speaker: And he's acting on a an aggressive instinct. Mm-hmm. And, you know, she you basically throws herself off of the roof.

Speaker: Yeah, another homage to... Definitely Gwen Stacy from the basics of Spider-Man 2. And you know Nick, you and I watched that same new Rockstars video. It's wonderful direction on Cretton's part that throughout this entire conversation, after he's holding her over, her face is bathed in the red of the Silver Cup Studios sign.

Speaker: Yeah. and In a way, a transformation. The moment Gene leaps out, it's no longer shaded in the red. Ooh, nice. it's it's clever It's clever lighting that adds to like that sinister feeling to it. like It's dark.

Speaker: It's dark. you know ah A few scenes later, you we are not not even a few scenes later, much much later in the movie, we get a moment that brought on an aspect that in you know my, you we'll sit let's say in my male privilege, I hadn't even considered.

Speaker: Yeah. when he's talking to her and he says, oh, you know when she was inside your mind, she kissed me and I kissed back.

Speaker: And you need to know that. Like that's when the other Sue dropped. Oh, that's even. Yeah. yes That's what unlocked it and made it align for me.

Speaker: It's like, that be because that that's a double violation of both of them. Jean assaulted both of them. Yep, she sure did. In that moment.

Speaker: and so you the And then you think about it. This is not Jean under immense stress. This is not Jean in a moment of raids.

Speaker: She just decided to do that. She didn't have to do any of that. She decided to be malicious.

Speaker: And that that's where I have trouble rooting for a redemption arc for her.

Speaker: And, you know, who maybe they'll pull it off. Sadie Sink is an amazing actress. I loved her in Stranger Things. She did a fantastic job in this movie.

Speaker: wait and When it was rumored that she was going to be Jean, when it was rumored she was going to be Jean, I was looking forward to seeing her as Jean. But, but like you know... it's Again, like, everything else...

Speaker: It's that, like, yes, reckless, dangerous. That could imply why the reckless and dangerous, like the fear of mutants and even her outbursts during the end of the movie.

Speaker: But as a character, she did just something that's incredibly vile. That is something I would expect from Emma Frost, not from Jean Grey.

Speaker: Oh, even Emma Frost, I think, would have, like, like It depends on who's writing Emma Frost, but it's like, that's that is like in like pure like her and the White Queen like persona. like Evil, evil stuff. like this that was That's Emma Frost before ah before Claremont decided that you know he he wanted to... Actually, Claremont wasn't even the one who who started her redemption arc. it was yeah It was Generation X. That was Lobdell.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. it it it it's... Everfrance has gotten a lot better treatment in recent years. i think, that's yeah, it's a lot more recent, her her sort of heel turn.

Speaker: but you know that i keep ah I keep thinking back to the previous movie. How much the previous movie was focused on helping all of the different villains get over their issues. And how you know Peter was so fundamentally determined to do so.

Speaker: He would even risk his his entire life, the existence of the multiverse, to help these people you know get past their issues and become functional again. And I think that... In that regard, the heinousness of this scene will probably come back if, ah you know, Jean Grey continues to be relevant to Spider-Man. Yeah. that the The end of the movie clearly indicates that Spider-Man has Jean Grey the motivation to change. Yeah.

Speaker: and But unlike the other villains from the previous movie, she was not under some sort of mind control or mind-altering substance or mind-altering gizmo. That was fundamentally... Even the most evil of them.

Speaker: Even the most evil of the villains from No Way Home, the Green Goblin. Green Goblin and Norman Osborn are two separate guys. And I think that this is going to be a matter of... I think it may might be a matter of social tension between...

Speaker: him and MJ, if he wants to continue helping her. It'll be a test of his resolve to help people be better. Because it seems like... He's willing to try. again Because when he came, when he did eventually go to rescue her from the DODC, the Department of Damage Control, he she intended to kill him. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Because he had no one to trust and even implied that he should just give up being a man and be the spider. a Well, I mean, he was he was directly responsible for her being there.

Speaker: yeah Yeah. So, like can see again, like she had given up on all hope, but Peter was there to rescue. it And and you know i think that's sort of the culmination of his arc in this movie is him still being That Spider-Man, the the great power, the responsibility is like, as heinous as this villain was, he's not going to let her suffer.

Speaker: So yeah, I think ultimately, but yeah that ultimately this is, i think that this is the first part of a test of his resolve. And I think it's going to be, yeah I think it's going to continue to be a test of his resolve, potentially in the future, if she comes back, where... MJ now knows that she violated both of their bodi e on you know bodily autonomy. yeah And I think that it might cause issues with MJ if she learns that he is trying to help her. He is still trying to help her become a better person. Even even if she is willing to become a better person and was not influenced by some outside source. it's a

Speaker: It's a different it is a different challenge. for him, but a different a different test in that regard. And Nick, with you having mentioned the great power, great responsibility line, can I say that I i do think it was beautiful that the way he finally got through to her was, you know, she had tried getting into his mind early into the movie, and that's what established that she couldn't. And we saw a flash of a scene that was clearly right after the end of homecoming yeah and uh he let her in and she saw may's conversation with peter even right after she found out that he's spider-man i liked how quick how well they shot it and it's for a moment it's peter and then it's her on the bed

Speaker: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's so good. yeah It's because it like it it gives me it's very similar to to Amazing spot Spider-Man 900 when before the Superior Spider-Man are arc, similar to what Doc Ock did with Doc Ock when Doc Ock was taken over his mind, letting him see and experiencing what Spider-Man experiences.

Speaker: and In this case, letting him her see and feel what he's The person that has taught him how to be a better person. in a moment when he needed it.

Speaker: But just the the whole scene with May, where you Jean was clearly mirroring Peter's side of the conversation.

Speaker: We had seen enough of it to know that she was mirroring his side of the conversation. But seeing May's entire side of it and just the the unconditional love and acceptance that May had for Peter. it' Again, it's what Jean...

Speaker: Wanted. She felt yeah cast out.

Speaker: She felt alone. Especially whenever ah they had they established previously in the movie that her mom had in fact thrown her out whenever she learned that she had powers.

Speaker: Yeah. yeah It was exactly what she needed to hear.

Speaker: In a way that's similar to what Peter needed to hear in the previous movie about great power and great responsibility. needed to hear that, yeah, things are going to change and it's going to be rough and you might not be ready for it.

Speaker: But you have people that care they can care about you. yeah

Speaker: Now, I said that that rooftop scene was the first time that the movie broke my heart. Yes. Yes. The second time the movie broke my heart was after Gene has left MJ and Peter takes her to the Punisher's boat hideout to lay low.

Speaker: Which is also the callback to the comics. It's called Golden Girl. it would see It's actually yellow in the in the comics. And they they have some bonding even though she doesn't see him without the mask.

Speaker: And I do like that they continue to do the establishment that MJ in this universe is on a similar smart level as Peter. Yeah. And... When people say, like, well, what... Are we going to get a Gwen Stacy in this universe? Like, this MJ is kind of a mixture of a lot of Spider-Man's girlfriends, including the intelligence of Gwen Stacy.

Speaker: And so... He goes off, you know, he he has his ah his encounter ah away from from the boat. He comes back and he had left the letter behind by accident.

Speaker: That, you know, the same letter from the trailer, same letter that Jean found. Yeah, from the end of No Way Home and she read it. And and cheat she read it.

Speaker: And they have this conversation where you know she she tells him to take off the mask and they talk. And she's like, you I understand how you feel. But that spell or whatever it was, it worked.

Speaker: I don't have any of those memories. I don't know you. So I don't love you. and like... Honestly...

Speaker: and This is the most complicated type of. And the best writing in the whole movie. And that no one's wrong here. No one's wrong. She understands perfectly where he's coming from. but You know.

Speaker: I'm not that person anymore. Because i don't have. The memories. That would allow me to be that person.

Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And the unspoken part of that, I mean, she did kind of mention it you know, the spell worked. It's like, because of you, I can't be that person again. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: And to to his credit, you know, and again, you you expect, you know, a a movie happy ending. You expect, you know, true love to break through the barriers of the magic spell and reunite them.

Speaker: if for no other reason, because onc screen and in real life, Tom Holland and Zendaya are just adorable together. Well, they are. and but it's like it's But I applaud the movie having the boldness to be like, to address the... No, no, this isn't something we can just retcon back. you this this was This was the big climax of the previous movie. We can't just say, okay, and now she's better.

Speaker: and That would like literally remove all the emotional... some of work that the previous movie we did.

Speaker: And it was, it was a great scene. it It was an incredibly human scene. And that, that is the second time. Another incredibly well acted. And it's like, but it's also like, yeah, you, I can applaud it for what it did, but I can also be like,

Speaker: ah That still hurts. You're sitting there in your seat going, no, no, no the two of you should be together.

Speaker: and but, you know, they're they're absolutely both right. And she's like, you know i I, I respect you and how you feel because you had those experiences, but I didn't anymore.

Speaker: there there And again, it's also the fact that this is, four years roughly around four years after the events of that. She is a different person now.

Speaker: and Yeah, she she has had four years of experiences, of new genuine experiences, truly without him. Without ever knowing him, because again, it's the spell isn't just, oh, I don't know who Spider-Man is. No, he's gone.

Speaker: from her mind. yep and and Lauren, I don't know if you noticed this. I didn't. I want to see the movie again yeah do it. But the same new Rockstars video that Nick and I have both mentioned in the Marvel Studios logo, I noticed that all of the clips and everything were from the previous Spider-Man movies. But when it was a scene of MJ and Peter or Ned and Peter or the three of them together, as the clip played, Peter faded out of existence.

Speaker: I did not notice that. no So even in the Marvel Studios logo, they were reinforcing that, yeah, the spell wiped out you his existence in their memories and in their lives.

Speaker: I like that again, they reinforce the fact that this isn't just like, oh, people don't know who Spider-Man is, but Peter's still around. No, no, no. Peter's gone.

Speaker: and And you day theres don like there's no like, oh, oh, I recognize Peter Parker as someone who went to my school. No, no. If there was any including of Peter Parker in Michelle Jones's mind, that's gone. And the bleeding part of that.

Speaker: And Gene has a line to that. Peter himself has apparently also worked to scrub any remaining references to himself.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: So anything that did remain, any record that did remain, he's wiped out.

Speaker: As part of the isolation, which unfortunately further... there gives credence to the fact that even if there was a way to jog her memory, like he's likely removed that little piece that she might have remembered, if any.

Speaker: And part of those four years of experience is, too, she has a new boyfriend. Yeah. Yes. We don't see much of him. we we just call boyfriend he's He's only in one scene and he's played by Imanis Fondi. And in the credits, he is just listed as the boyfriend. And come on, call him Paul. You cowards.

Speaker: Cowards, call him Paul. Because Paul's only reason to exist in the comics is to come between Peter and MJ. That's literally, he's literally the functional wall that is like, we could have Peter and MJ back together.

Speaker: Nope. But we won't. but The reason Paul. I think we can all say with you pretty pretty solid certainty that the boyfriend will return in Avengers Doomsday.

Speaker: Oh, yeah, certainly.

Speaker: But no, I mean, one thing too that you know i did I noticed it at the end of No Way Home, I noticed it in this. even though she doesn't remember Peter, some time... It's one of those things that gives you hope, even though you know from their conversation that there isn't really any.

Speaker: But she still wears the broken back black Dahlia necklace and again like that Peter gave her in Far From Home. so that again like I do love how that... The symbolism the symbolism behind it, it's still a broken necklace. So, but it's also something she naturally would have liked to have, but also she likely doesn't remember getting it.

Speaker: She just sort of has it. and So I, I think that it, and since it is like the most physical piece of Peter that she has, that is one piece of hope that I think.

Speaker: Well, and you also, you, she, she takes it After leaving the boat, she takes him back to the apartment. and you know he He's quote-unquote met Ned. and you Ned is a huge Spider-Man fan. and He's created a tracking app ah and to track Spider-Man sightings and all of this. and He's you trying to figure out who Spider-Man is to thank him because Spider-Man still saved their lives a few times in high school.

Speaker: Yeah, it was only Peter that was erased. They still know about Spider-Man. Like Spider-Man and Night Monkey still. Night Monkey will return in Avengers Doomsday, hopefully. Yes.

Speaker: And so ah she takes him back. It's like, you know, he at least say hi to Ned. He's a huge fan. At least say hi to him. Come on up. Yeah. It's guy like, it's like, it's a great throwing the dog a bone because, like, the fact that he was like, I'm leaving now. It's like, I can't get home from here.

Speaker: i didn't think yeah and just like a great visual storytelling of they're so quiet she has to hold on to him and he has to hold him and it's like you could just hear their minds just racing as they're swinging through the city is like Well, and because we we know from the the end of Far From Home, the beginning of No Way Home, yo he he took her swinging as Spider-Man after she found out.

Speaker: And he was terrified of it. Oh, yeah yes. But it's that's also when we sort of realized that Sadie Sink was, that Jean was in her mind because she did not at all mind being swung around, even though this would be her yeah first time swinging with Spider-Man.

Speaker: that um and the the way that you know even though he stays completely costumed and masked he and ned build legos again like they did when they were little and when they were younger and yeah they they completely fall into a best friend vibe and you're sitting there and it it's so bittersweet because you know that Ned doesn't know who this is, but they're still... the same guys. And MJ's sitting there sketching them.

Speaker: I'm glad they brought back her sketch her sketch work. that We haven't seen that in a while. Yeah, it was pretty cool. And you know she's like, you you guys feel like best friends.

Speaker: a And as he turns it around, and just it's it's him and Peter instead of him Spider-Man. Yeah. yeah

Speaker: I didn't but break my heart, but it like made my heart like, oh. they Yeah. Yeah, the same. Same. And yeah we we also have You both realize, right?

Speaker: This is the first time we've seen the Hulk Hulk since age of Ultron. Yes, yes. So, yeah, the the the Hulk died. Well, actually, it's been it's the first time since we've seen the real Hulk and since Thor Ragnarok.

Speaker: No, but heat he he was... He was talky... I mean, I guess. and i think that the like that's i feel like it's still the same character, though.

Speaker: In way, it's just... It's the first time we've seen the Savage Hulk since Age of Ultron, is what I'm saying. Sure. like Like, pure Hulk smash puny banner Hulk.

Speaker: cause Yeah, that was ah that was one of the reasons why people were kind of disappointed with the direction of the character... in I think at some point, whenever he just became dr Banner, because the Hulk functionally stopped being a character at that point.

Speaker: but But see, that's from one of the best runs of the comic. True. yeah And i I'm saying this with 100% bias because Peter David's 12-year run of the Hulk is...

Speaker: like Kind of the best. think he's the gold standard of the character. he's one of favorite writers. and as like it We didn't get to see the progression. we didn't we didn't to We didn't get to see how that happened. It happened during the time skip. I mean, in the comics, it happened in one issue.

Speaker: I see. In the comics it happened because ah you know Bruce decided that, you and this was also Peter David, the writer, deciding that, okay,

Speaker: we've established over the years, and I'm not the first writer to establish this, but I've been the one kind of running with it, that oh ah Bruce ah suffers from, at the time it was called multiple personality disorder, now it's dissociative identity disorder.

Speaker: Yes. And Banner, the green savage Hulk, and the gray, you know, like, thug-like Hulk are three distinct personalities and that were created out of the abuse that he suffered at his father's hands. And ah the Gamma Bomb basically gave Bruce shapeshifting powers that allow the personalities to express

Speaker: Yes. yes to manifest physically and so in reading up on at the time m pd peter david's like okay well in mpd the goal is not to eliminate the various identities like banner has constantly tried to do. He's always tried to cure himself of the Hulk. The goal is integration of the personalities.

Speaker: And so there was one issue where he went under super hypnosis by doc Samson and, um, the three personalities merged, so he got Banner's intelligence, the Green Hulk's strength, because it was the strongest one, and kind of the Grey Hulk's attitude.

Speaker: But it happened in one issue. So I had zero problem with them saying, yeah, during the five-year gap, I figured it out. Yeah. It just, ah yeah, that kind of removed the Hulk from kind of a lot of the...

Speaker: traditional accent that we and a lot of people want to see Hulk do. i think I think the biggest thing is that You know, the the dynamic between Hulk and Banner had been something that they had been building up over time, figuring out how they can work together.

Speaker: And to have that plot thread that's central to that character just happen entirely off screen and never really get resolved properly.

Speaker: You know, it there's there's never any deeper explanation of it at all. I can understand why people would be kind of agitated about that because I've only taken that issue, but it was an issue that existed. yeah It's also the fact that we can't have Hulk movies. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: Yeah, we we can't have solo Hulk movies, so they the movies have basically been doing Hulk's greatest hits. Yeah, when they're allowed to use him. And it's like, well, we can't give him his own movie. They're allowed to you they're allowed to use him whenever they want. that He just can't headline a movie without them having to split the money with Universal.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: yeah Yeah, the actual fight scene against the Hulk is great, though. Oh, that guy was. Again, it's good so good back to the choreography. That choreography is so good, especially the Hulk chasing him through the hallway.

Speaker: felt so Spider-Man. Well, and when he's first when they're first fighting one another and Hulk... Hulk's got a ah favorite move. He starts smashing him around like he did Loki at the end of Avengers.

Speaker: Yep. But then then he goes to swing down again and Spider-Man's missing because he's jumped onto Hulk's back. Yep. That's so Spider-Man. It's so Spider-Man.

Speaker: And...

Speaker: they They never went all the way through with saying that this happened. But in the comics, when the version of the spell was cast that um erased the knowledge of Spider-Man's dual identity, it didn't erase Peter Parker. It just erased the revelation of his identity. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: um there was a, a plot point in one issue somewhere that Banner forgot, but Hulk remembered because when the spell took place, he was Banner.

Speaker: I see. Hulk wasn't there for the spell to affect. a And so they, they, a lot of people were speculating when they said, ah, the Hulk's going to be in this movie that they were going to go there.

Speaker: And they didn't explicitly, but they did kind of ah imply it. Cause in that one moment where, you through the webbing, all of the pieces of the building, the Hulk is demolished or hanging off of him and he's hanging onto the building.

Speaker: Yeah. And he, he's got Peter, he's got Spider-Man down and he's like, you know it's me, Peter, I'm your friend. And that's when the Hulk just kind of stops, stops and lets himself fall.

Speaker: Wait, Better go to prison for this. He went to the hospital. He went to the hospital and there was a newscast that they were trying to figure out what what was up.

Speaker: and

Speaker: It's entirely possible he might. because but oh god we need a she hulk one shot on disney plus yeah we we need her defending her cousin for this because he was mind controlled for a lot of it yes and so i i presume that nick has not shown you the she hulk tv series yet no i don't think gonna watch it So in the She-Hulk TV series, they've established that some of the wacky out there bullshit of the MCU is legal precedent

Speaker: In the legal system. Like, there is a guy who is, he he was suing Asgardian who had swindled money from him by shapeshifting to look like Megan Thee Stallion.

Speaker: And was you know was talking to him on some dating app or social app and swindled money out of him. And the fact that it was a shapeshifter was part of the the case.

Speaker: And you know and this they're therere in the courtroom shapeshifting. Yeah. And we established that there's a there's multiple types of mind control, be it the Scarlet Witch's magic to Red Room mind control to Bucky's mind control.

Speaker: It is entirely possible that Banner could be exonerated by proving in a court of law that he was mind controlled.

Speaker: I want to see that one shot now. i do you do that? Because it's like...

Speaker: ah that That seems very plausible. And it'd be it would be likely be fun. it would be a lot of fun. that That series was fun. It was. I don't care what anybody says.

Speaker: But you don't care what anybody says, Daryl. Nope. But I definitely don't care what the incels say. And they're the ones who hated that show the most. true True. This is true.

Speaker: Because, Lauren, do you know who the who the ultimate villain of that series was? The MCU writers? No, the ultimate villain was a group of incels.

Speaker: Oh, okay.

Speaker: they They were running a smear campaign against She-Hulk. And then she decided that the big final fight was stupid. And that's when she ah busted through the Disney Plus menu screen and went into a a Marvel documentary and had words with the writing room.

Speaker: And Kevin, not Kevin Feige, but a robot. Mm-hmm. We'll still wear Kevin Feige's hat. Of course. Yes. But anyway, back to this movie.

Speaker: Yes. yes But yeah, I i really, this i this may also maybe, just like with The Punisher and Spider-Man, maybe be some of the best use of Banner and the Hulk.

Speaker: Yes, very true. Like, we got equal, I think they both got good screen time to each other. Banner felt like he like he was in control and gave some sage advice to Peter Parker without knowing who he was. Part so about the data i do part of the nature of it is, like, the inhibitor thing. I do like how it looks like the inhibitor he used to fix Doc Ock in the previous movie.

Speaker: Yeah. do like that. Yeah. I like that subtleness of that. But it's also like, it's like, how do you know which parts are the good and the bad? it's like. And he had no answer. He did not.

Speaker: And I, speaking of the mind control and the guest stars, It just popped into my head. i i think Bernthal was having a lot of fun playing Sadie Sink while she was possessing the Punisher.

Speaker: oh oh Oh, yeah. He had the sassiest walk in oh in that scene. Like, but I don't know how much of that was Sadie Sink or him, but either way, that was hilarious. I'm like, okay, you can handle that.

Speaker: And so Peter, as a result of all... You know what said in the bombs is really cool. It's like, just... Either what... I don't know if, like, Sadie Sink gave him those ideas, or those were just his ideas. Whoever came up with that whole sequence, Top Knotts, great job.

Speaker: It is kind of funny how ah she brought the Hulk in in the first place in order to get through the vault, and then it turns out that the way that she gets through the vault is by using the Punisher instead. yeah

Speaker: and hey oh but she yes Best joke with with fred the punter was when he's out of the mind control and he looks at his gun and then looks at Spider-Man because he webbed the he webbed a gun to the wall. He's like, is that my gun? Yeah. yeah they With use of the inhibitor and Spider-Man not knowing any better,

Speaker: ah Which he should have because they they used a deep cut for the director of damage control by using an X-Men villain who appeared in one story. Amazing.

Speaker: It's like, it's an X-Men, it's it's a deep cut X-Men villain. So you'd know this guy's bad news. But they... They take her into custody and they start testing on her.

Speaker: And she's been out to find her sister, Sarah, that Damage Control had taken into custody. And the more Metzger starts talking.

Speaker: All has to go on is like a single message she inherently got from her her sister through their telepathic link. Mm-hmm. And that has been our MacGuffin through the whole movie.

Speaker: Yes. Finding out what VMAX is. Mm-hmm. And they start testing on her. The more Metzger talks, the clearer it becomes that through these experiments, Sarah died. Mm-hmm.

Speaker: And as they you know start cranking up the juice on Jean, experimenting on her, her head falls back. She sees the air vent above her with a label flapping on it that it says Vent Max, but the way the label is broken and flapping, it says Max.

Speaker: And that's when she realizes the last thing that the last message she got from her sister was her dying message, the last thing she saw.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. And all throughout the movie, youre you know that Metzger is sus. Mm-hmm. But every time somebody mentions V-Max to him, and he's like, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Speaker: You're like, oh, he's lying. He's so lying. He had no idea. Yeah, no, he really didn't know. It was a red herring in on on like the plot as a MacGuffin.

Speaker: But it's a hell of a... I assume this is the third time that the movie ripped out your heart. Yes, this is the third time that my heart broke. Of course. it this one like I was like, all alright, Gene, kill them all!

Speaker: And so then when, when her powers spike and everything, and she's now holding Metzger, like we said, at, at glass shard, but multiple glass shard point, that's the one time that I can say like, okay, you know this is, know, a, a lashing out in, in anger and surprise and grief.

Speaker: Like this is. She's been betrayed. She's lost everything. The one thing that she was looking for, her sister, the only person she had in her life is gone.

Speaker: Yeah. And so this this is the time that I can, that I can excuse is a strong word. Comprehend. But it's.

Speaker: Understand. yeah Understand. it's the one that i can understand it's it's a moment of raw emotion and sees lasting out at someone who yes deserves to be last out at and yeah and but he's also causing meds damage to the rest of the city as well yeah And chief Punisher's ready to take her out with a long-range gun.

Speaker: Yeah, he's outside of her psychic range. He's got the sniper rifle. Yeah. And, you know, Peter gets through the hand that somehow damage control is using them as, know, enforcers now, which...

Speaker: there's a There's our misdirect from the trailer. Yeah. Yep. It turns out none of the seeds scenes that focusing the hand had a secret character in them. Nope. Yes.

Speaker: Daredevil was not involved at all. Shock. What a shock. the Even the big c sequence with them all jumping at so i out of a building is like, nope, it was just Spider-Man there.

Speaker: Yep. So like... You got us this time. you know he With Gene taunting him to just you decide, you know are are you the man? Are you the spider?

Speaker: And he decides to be both and integrates the two halves. Yeah, he does it.

Speaker: And that that's when you know he lets Gene in to see the vision of May. Yeah. that we were talking about and if she lets Metzger go. He was brutal up to that point. He was getting trounced. Oh yeah. He was getting bodied.

Speaker: And

Speaker: he, like he's good, but like ninjas on a hive mind, you can't be ninjas on a hive mind. And so the Punisher takes a shot.

Speaker: Yeah. And the Spidey sense kicks in. It's a direct homage to the Ultimate Comics, the death of Spider-Man story arc. Even the same location.

Speaker: And I love how they represented the the use of Spider-Sense in this instance, where Gene and Spidey are still in the psychic vision room when all of a sudden the the shot rings out and they look into the distance and And they see it the darkness. They're both able to detect that the bullet is coming because she's currently in Spider-Man's mind.

Speaker: Right. just like And then then he protects her. He saves her from the bullet. He protects her. He saves her from the bullet. And as he's laying there bleeding out. Yeah, he's bleeding out. He's about to die.

Speaker: yeah like She enters his mind and she breathes for him. and She keeps him breathing until the Punisher can get him to a hospital and he can breathe on his own again.

Speaker: And... um you we We get some fun... That is her first time using her powers to save someone. it It truly was a...

Speaker: again

Speaker: I'm still going to be iffy about the guy that the rooftop scene, but I will say that that was a good first step for her. and i I'm not going to lie.

Speaker: Once they confirmed that it was Jean, first when damage control was testing her and the parts of her brain are starting to light up, and then you know when she's going to help Peter, both times I expected Phoenix imagery because i was like, yeah, they're doing this speed run.

Speaker: No, no Phoenix imagery. it And I'm glad that there wasn't. i I'm glad they didn't. I it i just know someone in that room, some executive, is like, oh, we could put some Phoenix imagery in here he's because he's bringing Peter to life. And it's like, nope.

Speaker: Get out of here. and yeah but But we're going to do a Phoenix eventually in like three movies. a Get out of here. Go. had Peter gets to see the the public pulling for him.

Speaker: That you know even though he's you can he's been isolated and alone, he's not alone. Because he's done the work to earn, like again, like end of Spider-Man No Way Home. He was kind of reviled still. Yes.

Speaker: But he put it in the work for four years. For four years, he put in the work and basically saved the city. Oh, yeah.

Speaker: And you we we close with him you in the bodega again, buying his daily flowers for May. ah And Ned is sitting there.

Speaker: Oh, yeah. He goes over and he introduces himself as Peter, which worth noting, ah when Spider-Man left Ned and MJ's apartment after building the Legos with with Ned when you shit started to happen again um and she called and i slipped up and called him Peter yeah and then Ned was like oh his name is Peter i was oh one note before that is like the reveal of the fact that the Metzler was was which lying was a great just one line like put the whole puzzle together

Speaker: moment. I don't remember anything. like But he said he did, so wait a second. yeah and so he that great That's great one word, boom, mystery. You put in your head like, wait, that doesn't make any sense.

Speaker: And so he he goes to shake Ned's hand and then starts to go through their shared secret handshake.

Speaker: And Ned starts reacting with it. Now, meanwhile, also intercut with some of this, you know while Spider-Man was in the hospital, MJ was on their old school roof, you know, like playing with the Black Dahlia necklace.

Speaker: And so that it does leave us with some ambiguity about... yeahp There are some people out there already online who are saying that you know because they got hit with genes, they were inside Gene's wave of mental energy, and MJ was crying during that point, that somewhere in their minds...

Speaker: they got some of some of Peter's memories. Or some people are just saying, some people are saying that, know, no, Ned just had muscle memory. Yeah, that's exactly possible.

Speaker: Like, it's implied that that Ned and Peter knew each other way longer than than Peter and MJ knew each other. So that would feel a lot more, like, plausible.

Speaker: that there's that that much memory can ah even in our physical level be there also i think the reason like honestly i can't also i can't imagine what's going through on any of those people's minds i'd be crying too if i was stuck in a weird psychic it frozen zone

Speaker: but yeah i'm pretty sure that's scary And and that's where we that's where we leave it. i It was an awesome movie. a couple of ah A couple of other just small things, small potatoes that I want to mention is, first of all, I didn't put this in the notes. This is me remembering this.

Speaker: I loved Florence Pugh as Yelena. all this floridar I love in every every time she shows up as Yelena in a project, it is gold. never it's It has not let me down at all. See, it if we're doing a big reboot, she's coming with.

Speaker: She's the best ever seen. I mean, she she clearly has a lot of fun with the role. The writers have a lot of fun coming up with stuff for her.

Speaker: love that her office is just a shot-out. It's a Russian banya. and yeah they's like hurt her Her logic is logical.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker: And by doing it there and not in Avengers Tower... there's absolutely no way that Val can eavesdrop on anything that she's doing or saying.

Speaker: and it's it's but It's all logical. It all makes sense. But it's like, it's so it's also just so fun. And just her constant constant reference telling him that you you deal with the tiny, tiny potatoes.

Speaker: We are big potatoes. Huge. Big potatoes. That's already becoming a meme online in referring to this movie. Yeah, it's the new Avengers level threat. It's now potatoes. Big potatoes. but potatoes yep And if there is not a line about big potatoes in Avengers Endgame, I'm going to riot.

Speaker: Or in Doomsday. i'm gonna riot like I'm going to riot. Doom is at least one big potato. he is He is perhaps one of the biggest potatoes of all.

Speaker: Honestly, that's the biggest thing that got through me for a loop. We went there and we were at the start. No Doomsday trailer. I was very surprised. But again, it's a Sony movie. onlyny It is a Sony flick and they did prioritize a lot of other films in that. But it's like, it's just odd. They've got a lot of marketing for it. is like Just case I was under a rock.

Speaker: Here is what I expected on that front. I expected a repeat of what happened with um Far From Home. I expected, I didn't expect the trailer beforehand. I expected the post-credits scene to be the newer trailer that they dropped at San Diego last week.

Speaker: Oh, yeah. The Hall Eats trailer, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. i guess Just like yeah you with with Far From Home, the second post-credits scene was just the trailer for Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness.

Speaker: Yeah. So that's what I expected out ah out of this. But we didn't get it. I was surprised. and we Yeah, not really. In fact, I think the the last two MCU movies I've seen didn't really have substantial post-credits scenes.

Speaker: Yeah, this one was... It had the Spidey Tracker, which is cool. and I just found out it was actually part of the marketing. hu the The last... Was the last big one Thunderbolts?

Speaker: No, Fantastic Four. It was Fantastic Four, yeah. I don't think that one had any post-reads scene. No, it did. it The second one was their cartoon, but the first one was Doom visiting Franklin. Oh, right. Yeah, that's right. now remember And Thunderbolts was the Wheaties one and then the the Fantastic Four ship that's going to be seen in Doomsday.

Speaker: Yes. Right. This one was sort Spidey Tracker and Spider-Man in space? Apparently. Yep. Didn't they really troll us?

Speaker: Didn't they really troll us? With like, Spider-Man will return.

Speaker: And we're all waiting for Avengers Doomsday to show up, but Tom Holland has not been confirmed for Doomsday. maybe ah Maybe Spider-Man will return in Secret Wars, and that's the location in space that they're showing up.

Speaker: It could be Battleworld. It's been confirmed for for Secret Wars. But not for Doomsday. But not for Doomsday. And it's like, it just feels weird to not have him there. But then he's small potatoes. That's big potatoes.

Speaker: Yeah. And the the other small thing, small potato, that I wanted to bring up is I want to talk about the movie's other Gene, Detective Gene DeWolf.

Speaker: Oh, yeah. Great supporting character. the Glad to see you there. The character didn't really have much in common with comics Gene DeWolf besides the name.

Speaker: Well, it's it maybe the next one will still be the death of Gene DeWolf. Yeah. but Well, I was about to say, i was worried she wasn't going to make it out of this movie alive since her most prominent comic story is the death of Gene DeWolf.

Speaker: you know i So I was glad she was around till the end because I liked this Gene DeWolf. Oh yeah, she's great. A lot of fun. Yeah, I mean, she's Spider-Man's police contact, but she's like, you're doing this 24-7. That can't be healthy.

Speaker: and even And when he went a bit off with it, like I do hope, like we touched on a lot of storylines with this one. I feel that's very unique in that it's not really portraying any one iconic run of a Spider-Man arc.

Speaker: Yeah, not really. It's in pieces from a bunch of them.

Speaker: So I do hope we do revisit his... this sort of pseudo-the-other-six-arm-saga, because I do want Bandspider at some point.

Speaker: at At this point... i won't I wasn't upset that we didn't get in this in this one. I was kind of thinking we were just from hints in the trailer. I thought that's what, if anything, was altered in the shot of him leaning at the hand. I thought it was going to be him with six arms.

Speaker: because But if they don't do it, I'm not going to mind. Oh yeah, they're not going to mind, but it's like I kind of want it. It's like, because they have the setup now.

Speaker: I mean, i just, you I think that they they reached a resolution of that at the end of this. So I think that going back to that well again, it would be kind of like if this movie had reversed the whole you know thing of the spell.

Speaker: So he's got his resolution. He's made his place because they they were saying that, well, this came on because of the stress of him trying to do everything on his own.

Speaker: Well, then I know what I want from Secret Wars, then. Do it in Secret Wars. Well, here's the thing. and put six arms Thinking about what's going to happen next in future Spider-Man movies, we know that the Venom symbiote exists in the MCU.

Speaker: And it's fairly reasonable to say that Spider-Man's next appearance may very well be in Secret Wars. And of course... That's where traditionally gets the suit. Yep.

Speaker: But at the same time, doing, you know... it doing a the next Spider-Man movie post-Secret Wars, if that is the Venom symbiote narrative, that would be covering a substantial amount of ground that we covered in this movie.

Speaker: Because yeah a lot of people described you know the the the situation with Spider-Man becoming more spidery as being very similar to his situation with the symbiote.

Speaker: So that is. there's way There's ways they can get around it. It's different interpretations of the symbiote. This is true. This is true. I like.

Speaker: I just. i was like I think they reached a a good resolution. And you there's a lot of that. I feel that like we're bound onto to it some. Yeah. We're bound to, at some point, get a Spider-Man Venom story in the MCU. yeah I mean, it's just, it's it's inevitable.

Speaker: Yes. Just like Thanos. Of course.

Speaker: it's going to happen. I almost kind of just want them to go ahead and get it over with. Mm-hmm. I don't want them to draw it out. I think you've got maybe a movie's worth, just like you did with Spider-Man 3.

Speaker: um i like agree if if they if they do If they do it as as we're thinking, they introduce it it it and in Secret Wars, they got a solid movie after that to work with. Yeah, just you don't...

Speaker: you know If you know that it's it's the Venom symbiote, you know, but have it just function as the original black costume. Yeah. In Secret Wars. would be some good stuff.

Speaker: And in fact, have him show up in you know another movie in there somewhere in that black costume with it acting normal.

Speaker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. and don't do Then do the Venom story in the next Spider-Man movie. Get it at your system. like kind Give some time. give it No, no, no. Give some time.

Speaker: So you have him show up in Fantastic Four 2. He's in the black costume. It acts normal. But you let them establish a friendship between him and Johnny so that in the next Spider-Man movie, and it's the Venom story, just like in the comics, he can go to the FF.

Speaker: Yeah. And try to have Reed help him remove it. Reed discovers that it's a symbiote. They try to remove it. All of that stuff.

Speaker: Play with the Marvel Universe. If you're going to keep throwing guest stars into the Spider-Man movies. Play with the toys. We have the toys now. yeah We have the action figures set now. we have We have the expansion. We have the action figures, so let's bang them together.

Speaker: Yeah. and Nick, I think you were saying yesterday that you had some some thoughts about how Gene's portrayal in this movie could affect the X family of movies going forward.

Speaker: Yes. Basically, this one of the usual things that I feel that is difficult to establish, in especially in the MCU, is like for how do we get to go from...

Speaker: mutants exist to a world that hates and fears them.

Speaker: Well, this is a pretty big moment that I don't think people are going to feel very comfortable about. Is this true? Yep. Like, that whole, like, I guess why even was like, that's why I think that's more the reason why, like, and MJ was crying and Ned felt of weird afterwards. Like, I think people are going to be like,

Speaker: that was disturbing i did not like that and there's just people that can do that

Speaker: i think that will help start the so sort of again this is a world of superheroes and enhanced peoples this is like new stuff and they're like this is dangerous i can see people using that to to rile up the populace and get Get sort of the the mutant and mean entertainment stuff going on.

Speaker: The Semino program, stuff like that. As a response to this event. Mick, is this why you wanted me to pull that that clip for you? Yes.

Speaker: God, you know why people hate you? It's not because you're mutants. It's because you're all a bunch of motherfuckers. Motherfuckers, that's why. You...

Speaker: That one.

Speaker: I hate Bendis. ah know you do.

Speaker: But it also comes to a storyline where Jean used her powers and things scott got very uncomfortable. Well, I mean, you know what?

Speaker: This is, I mean, there's there's a lot of reasons why, but that's probably yet another reason why Bendis got a special thanks in the credits because Bendis every time Bendis writes Jean, she's an awful person.

Speaker: She's the one, Bendis Jean is the one who outed Iceman against his will. Yeah. In the comic I just had to see switch the minds of Logan and Peter. Yeah.

Speaker: For reasons. Wolverine in Peter's body tried to get it on with 15-year-old Mary Jane.

Speaker: and

Speaker: hate Bendis. I hate Bendis. Oh, yeah. But again, because of that horrible writing, I feel that this is the response that Peter would have to all of that shenanigans. Yeah.

Speaker: But i' i'm I am curious now where what direction they're going to take when they do get to X-Men in 2028, 2029.

Speaker: But they definitely have some things set up here that are definitely going to help make that. Because again, like people are like, well we have like ah the Spider-Man and stuff like that. People are hating and fearing him. It's like, well, this is a major incident that could cause that.

Speaker: oh It's It helps smooth that over.

Speaker: I mean, given how they have the MCU set up, that that can narratively kind of work because, oh, sure, sure, sure. We got over Sokovia Accords and repealed that after the whole Thanos thing. We wee repealed the the Accords because enhanced are fine.

Speaker: But these mutants, that's another matter entirely. Yeah. So I feel that that's, again, depending on how they're going to do this post-Secret Wars MCU, because it's not going to be a hard reboot. This is a good thing that they could add and use as like, okay, this is why this is this way.

Speaker: And I am still, you know, just final words, kind of disappointed that Sadie Sink was Jean. I mean, she's going to do an awesome job as Jean. She did an awesome job as Jean. But, you know if you're going to bring in a redheaded mutant in a Spider-Man movie, make her Firestar, you cowards.

Speaker: Yeah. Go Spider-Man and his amazing friends. Introduce Firestar and introduce Iceman. Oh yes. This will be the moral dilemma that Spider-Man has to deal with in Spider-Man 8. Will he be rooming with his mutant friends or his human friends? Because you know, yeah, just you do Firestar.

Speaker: Do Firestar. Do it. But I enjoyed it. I want to see it again. i want to see it again soon. But i I kind of want to see the Odyssey again first. And then I want to see this again first. Because I saw the Odyssey on Tuesday. Saw this on Saturday. So within five days, I saw two different movies with Tom Holland, Zendaya, and Jon Bernthal.

Speaker: So I kind of want to repeat that experience. Well, okay. and if And if you had a nickel for that, you'd have two nickels. But if I do it again, then I'll have four. Which still won't pay for a single movie ticket.

Speaker: No, it won't.

Speaker: Any other closing thoughts from either of the two of you? i think I've gotten all I have to say out. yeah Yeah, I think so. It was a very lovely movie. It was. definitely It's definitely in this pseudo phase of the MCU, definitely a high point going into To the yeah you know the but the big ones.

Speaker: One other thing that's interesting to think about and try to figure out, you know, originally, with the original schedule, Doomsday was supposed to come out in May of this year, and this was still supposed to be end of July.

Speaker: um So this was going to be coming out after Doomsday. Interesting. And that's why a lot of people were saying, know, well, that's why, know, Spider-Man's not in Doomsday because his own movie is coming out after Doomsday and then that'll go into Secret Wars. But, you know, i don't think this would have worked in between the two. Yeah, it would have been an awkward what point to put there.

Speaker: Well, we haven't seen Doomsday yet, so we can't fully say. That's true. but junior But we do know that incursions are occurring in Doomsday so that you know there are three Earths kind of you know starting to merge with one another that can be seen from each other's atmospheres.

Speaker: Yes. And Yelena wouldn't be here for... would be do Because she's dealing with the big potatoes. so Yeah. So... That's another reason why it wouldn't necessarily work...

Speaker: as like the original schedule. So again, there's probably some, some behind the scenes canary that we don't know yet. Yeah. oh It's supposedly all, you know, doomsday production and post-production timing versus Spider-Man production and post-production timing that there was no way doomsday was going to be ready in May.

Speaker: Yeah. I mean, they supposedly haven't even started filming Secret Wars, and it comes out a year after Doomsday, but I'm betting that the Russos are doing a Lord of the Rings here. Oh, yeah. It wouldn't surprise me if it's like this.

Speaker: I'm betting both are being filmed at the same time.

Speaker: But anyway, that, that is our thoughts on Spider-Man brand new day. If you saw it, we hope you enjoyed it. ah You know, let us know on socials. We'll,

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