Transcript
Speaker: Hi, welcome to the podcast Women Changing Finance, where you will discover amazing women from all around the world who are making finance become a force for good.
Speaker: Welcome to the podcast, Women Changing Finance. I'm Cristina Torra, and I'm welcoming today Fernanda de Arruda Camargo, founding partner of Right Capital Wealth Management.
Speaker: Fernanda has over 30 years of experience in the va financial markets and a deep commitment to contributing to social and environmental solutions. Fernanda, welcome. It's wonderful to have you on the show today.
Speaker: Thank you so much, Cristina. My first question is about your perspective on the sustainable ah finance and impact finance ecosystem in Brazil. Amongst other things, you have been part of the Brazilian Financial and Capital Market Association, of the government's initiative to launch a national strategy of impact, many different activities for the past years in Brazil. You have a very unique vantage point on the Brazilian market, therefore.
Speaker: What are the most promising changes that you are seeing? Are there any shifts that you believe could unlock really more sustainable and impact investing in the country?
Speaker: Basically, tell us more about the progress that you are seeing. Thank you so much. I need first to go back in time and talk a little bit about how I found out about impact and why it's so important that people just do it.
Speaker: no matter the size, but because of the example. So I think like in 2010, the first time I've heard about Impact was about the social bonds of Sir Ronald Cohen.
Speaker: And that was like, at that time, it seemed impossible. Like, how does this exist? Are you talking about philanthropy and people? No, no, no. This is financial markets.
Speaker: So it was very inspiring to see that happening and learned a lot by then. And the movement in Brazil started around this time, 2010, when we saw the first impact funds in Brazil,
Speaker: which was ah Vox first and then MoV Investments, but are very, very inspired in some movements happening around the world. So we have the movement in England.
Speaker: You have that paper that the Rockefeller Foundation sponsored about private capital for public good, which was very inspiring me as well.
Speaker: So I'm just going back in time to say that sometimes... We that are working in financial institutions, we think, oh, this is going to be really small. Why am I going to do this? You should do this.
Speaker: However, you know, if it's small or not, it indicates a way. If it indicates a way, it will be useful, you know. it So it's very important.
Speaker: And when I look back since 2010, we had a lot of good things happening. I think all over the world, of course. And in the case of Brazil, Brazil is one of the few countries that have find a very structured financial markets in the country.
Speaker: which helps a lot, different from other countries in Latin America. So one of the first things that I keep saying is Brazilian families, they can leave part of the wealth in the country, which doesn't happen in other countries, not in Latin America, not in the global South.
Speaker: You see a lot of the families making money in the country and allocating it all abroad. So if we want to make change, we need to invest here. It is very important to have a financial market.
Speaker: And then we had a lot of improvements since then. First, I think the concept of impact, it was not clear. In 2010, 2011, we had the regulator, the CVM, which is our regulator, start a lab in 2016, which was really important because we were studying models that you guys did in the UK or models in the US or other places. And we wanted to replicate it in Brazil. So we needed to change regulation for that.
Speaker: And we did it. We had a lot of improvement an ESG in 2016, there was almost no fund you could not find.
Speaker: And to today, if you go to the Ambima, which is the Capital Markets Association, and you search for sustainable funds, you're going to find a lot of them.
Speaker: And so this is already, you know, I think we we walked a lot. Impact funds, there were two. Today we have many. and in all kinds of sectors. And or actually today, mainly climate, green, nature-based, all that.
Speaker: The National Development Bank in Brazil was one of the first development banks to do a blended fund. That was also beautiful because I think it inspired not only other banks,
Speaker: but a lot of big corporates and other the banks to do this structure. So it was right after that that we started seeing blended structure for climate. And finally, we got the EcoInvest, which is this deal with the World Bank and the National Treasury, where we in Brazil get this money at 1% per year with the hedge, which is very important.
Speaker: This money gets gets into the banks. And the banks will allocate into the deals. So they're doing the auctions now. And each auction, one, it's for climate. The other, it's for pasture. The other, it's for climate funds. And now bioeconomy.
Speaker: So I think this is a lot of evolution already. We have been... seen a lot of capital costs from the National Development Bank into climate as well.
Speaker: And we see some state development banks doing blended finance to decarbonize the state. So I think there's a lot of improvement.
Speaker: And we as a wealth management firm that all of our clients allocate a little bit in impact or climate or ESG, we have more options today to allocate. So this is, it's been a long walk, but I think we should be happy to see despite the changes, the movement, now ESG is good, now it's not anymore. and But despite all that, it's going on.
Speaker: It's continuing. That's amazing. That's a super positive picture and gives a lot of examples. I just want to double click on your example, Equinvest with the World Bank and the National Treasury.
Speaker: Can you go deeper into that example? Because it really seems so something super interesting that can be perhaps inspiring for for other countries, other people who are working in this ecosystem.
Speaker: Yes, this was a a line that Brazil had with the World Bank and it was not using. It was a derivatives line. And so the deal was, OK, let's use this line to provide capital for the green and climate transition economy.
Speaker: And basically, when you have foreign investors coming into the country, you keep listening to the currency risk kills it. And it's true, right? It's very volatile.
Speaker: So the currency risk might kill it. Also, if you want to develop any transitional climate product, the cost is super high because, of course, it's all new. You're going to have to test the models.
Speaker: So I think this money comes... This line comes to, it's got a kind of catalytic, right? It's cheaper, catalytic, and the treasury requires the company that gets the money to report if they are using it the right way. So if they say they're going to do transition or they do buy economy, they need to prove it.
Speaker: Right. So and what happened was that the banks, a lot of them, they were looking into the transitional climate, maybe not as deep.
Speaker: But when this line comes, It makes them move. They call all their clients and they say, look, we have this new type of line for you, this new credit. And if you have green projects, it's good for you.
Speaker: So I think this is good because it moves the systems. The EcoInvest will probably reach around 75 billion reais, which is 15 billion dollars alone around that.
Speaker: And it moves a lot, right? So I think it's a good example. And it got a lot of attention here. And you see companies that were not looking into green or transition. And now they said, okay, if I get this line, I'll do it.
Speaker: So I think this is great. Amazing. Thank you for explaining it. It's a really interesting example. I mean, obviously, we can talk a lot about the Brazilian ecosystem, which is so rich with different innovations and activities.
Speaker: But I also want to hear about your work. So you founded, co-founded Ride Capital 11 years ago, if that's correct. Tell us about the journey, like what led you to that? What happened? And also, how has the organization evolved?
Speaker: I mean, 11 years. Congratulations. It's a lot. So how did you start? But also where are you at today? True. Yesterday we had the end of the year party for the company and we were talking about the story and we started Right Capital in 2014 with the idea of only getting families or endowments or institutions that care about social transformation or environmental transformation.
Speaker: And if they care part of the wealth should be invested impact ESG or something like that. But when we decided that there was no ESG in the country and there were two impact funds.
Speaker: So I think for the people who are in the financial markets, it's very important to just go back a little bit because I started in the market in 92%.
Speaker: Long time. And the idea was, you know, you need to make money, whatever. Just go and don't breathe. Just make money. And when time goes on, I worked for big investment banks in Brazil, in the States.
Speaker: I spent a long, long time in the treasury desk. structuring the products. And if you are in a country like we are with this huge inequality, if you go around in the streets, for me, it's very hard not to feel anything, you know? And if you're sitting in a bank,
Speaker: so watching the movement of the capital markets and I started questioning what the hell am I doing? I think part of the questioning comes from a spiritual journey. You know, I've been going to Asia to study Buddhism and for a long time.
Speaker: And I think this helps. But in 2009, I used to work for another wealth management company and i my partner died in a plane crash with the whole family.
Speaker: And that was one of the hardest moments ever because he was such an amazing person, full of mission, one of the biggest philanthropists in the country ever.
Speaker: And when that happened, we had to do the merge of the company with another company. But in the meantime, I decided to follow his work, you know, and create a foundation.
Speaker: And during that period, we put together in the foundation a lot of the business people in the country. And I found out that those people, they not only wanted to do, to take care of their companies, they wanted to do something for the country.
Speaker: but They needed a way how to. And the foundation was mainly focused in sports. So we did a lot of sports in community and Olympic sports.
Speaker: But through that, one of the board members of this foundation came to me in 2010 and said, look, we want to get part of our whole wealth and invest in impact. And for me, that was like, what? What?
Speaker: No, no, you want to invest in impact. I said, so you want to do more philanthropy? He said, no, no, no, no. It's for profit. For profit. How does that work? So it goes into the Sir Ronald Cohen story.
Speaker: And when I came back from studying that, I was like, okay, so it's possible to work in the financial markets and put together people and planet in the account.
Speaker: This brings you purpose, mission. And I think one of the things, you know, I've been working in big banks and you get into the trading floor and you see a lot of the people there with their Bloombergs and spreadsheets.
Speaker: And I kept asking myself, where are their souls? And one of the things that happened is when this platform, movement started for me, it was like, oh, I can bring purpose into my work. I don't need to leave work and do something a apart.
Speaker: But by the time I was getting to that conclusion, I was working for a firm that did not understand that. And I kept asking, let's do this. Let's get the private equity area and transform part of it into impact. And they were like, are you nuts? Do you want to transform us into an NGO?
Speaker: I was like, go you you don't get it, right? And very few people got it when I was talking about this. So I left the firm and spoke to many, many, many, many other family offices and banks and everybody. And every time I spoke about this, they thought it was philanthropy.
Speaker: And I said, no, no, no, we need to change the core. We need to change the core. And people would look at me like if i was crazy. So we decided, you know, I met my husband working at that firm and we decided to start Right Capital together.
Speaker: And one of the things is that when you are in the financial markets, you receive a report full of numbers and returns, right?
Speaker: But behind those numbers, there are people. But our system taught us not to think about this. Let's not think about the people, care about the numbers.
Speaker: And impact makes us think about the people. Who's behind that, right? And... This, for me, changed a lot. And once you see it, you cannot stop seeing it.
Speaker: So we decided to do this and to be able to invest in impact, we had to help create the ecosystem. That's why we're starting started a huge advocacy work with the regulators and with the system.
Speaker: We decided to help the impact funds. We decided to bring big funds from all over the world to teach us how to do this. So that was a ah journey and it still is. And the good part of it is that in this journey, you meet very, very nice people.
Speaker: So I think this is the best part because why you go meeting these people all over the world, it gets better because you find people who are in the same mission, very different parts. So this is,
Speaker: It's very good. And the hard part is that at the same time that we're doing all that, we need to deliver returns, same as the rest of the industry. Otherwise, we would not have business.
Speaker: So it's it's a lot of work. But at the same time, it's great because we've been proving that it's possible to deliver returns and bring this impact into the portfolios.
Speaker: That's pretty amazing. I, well, I really love this story and I'm sorry I had to start with such a catastrophe and really terrible moment, but it seems that it was in the end for the greater good.
Speaker: i want to ask you about how you work with your clients, how you help them align with their values, but how you help them to invest for impact?
Speaker: What are the challenges that you see there? Maybe any myths that you need to bust when you're working with those clients? And also, are they getting more and more interested potentially in climate or nature or other social impact work?
Speaker: Yes. I think one of the first things that we are different is that all the family offices, they keep waiting until the client asks.
Speaker: We never did this. When a new client comes, we say, look, if you are here, it's mandatory that at least 1% of your wealth, we're going to start investing in impact.
Speaker: And till today, nobody said, no, I don't want it. Everybody said, well, 1%, well, okay. If everything goes wrong, nothing changes, right? And we say, look, once we do this, we have 10 years to teach you.
Speaker: And what happened was that in the beginning, all the families agreed. And every meeting we would explain one of the impact businesses and say, look, this is what you're doing.
Speaker: This is how your money is changing, either financial inclusion or health or climate. And all of them said, OK, and is this also giving returns? Yes.
Speaker: And So with time, we had families saying, okay, we can go more. Let's increase it. And today, the average is from 2% to 4% in almost all the clients.
Speaker: But of course, we have clients who want a lot more. So we have one client who wants to go 100%. And at the moment, it's not possible. we We need to change the world first, but it will be.
Speaker: We have other clients want They said, fine, you know, but let's do you know more ESG. And I accept less returns if that's the case.
Speaker: And lately, we have a lot of clients asking for nature-based solution climate. And we do a lot of... learning sessions with the clients and experiences, bringing them to see things and make them feel it.
Speaker: And the things that happen is one of these clients has asked us, okay, I want almost 100% in this type of asset and i would accept impact first, which means more impact than returns.
Speaker: That is beautiful, but for a wealth management firm, it costs a lot. right Because the due diligence process for each of these funds is huge.
Speaker: You usually don't get big institutions looking into this because they say, look, um I will not lose my time in a small product. My check is too big for this small fund.
Speaker: So we don't have big checks, but the time you spend looking into this type of deals, it's much harder. So especially when you get to nature-based or bioeconomy, you need to go in local. You need to do research on a lot of things that are new on different types of carbon, different types of how this bioeconomy works in different parts of the country.
Speaker: so At some point, I came back to them and I said, guys, I love you, but this is going to cost a lot. You know, we're going to have to have ah more people doing this work for these funds. And this is going to kill us, you know. And then they said, OK, see how much this will cost and we will help.
Speaker: We need to start this. And they said, we understand that if you do it, others will come. And this is what's happening right now, which is amazing. But it's always like that, right? We we made the choice to say, okay, we'll do it. But we were very, very honest with them to say it is super, super complicated and please help us. And they did.
Speaker: Wow. This is so fantastic to hear and also shows, I would say two things. One, that you have built an incredible relationship with your clients and also is also a testament to your trade-blazing, pioneering mindset, right? Like to explain things, to kind of go where others are not.
Speaker: I actually want to ask you something interesting that you said that their your clients are more and more interested into nature-based and climate solutions. I understand that Brazil is like flourishing with some of those solutions.
Speaker: I would love to know more about that ecosystem and also maybe if you can give examples because I think that that's really specific about bras Brazil is the ability to provide really interesting, great projects in that that area.
Speaker: Yes. oh One thing that it's it's funny, because when you say to other people and all over the world that Brazil has 83, 84% of the energy coming from clean sources, mainly water, people are like, what?
Speaker: This is true. Our energy is clean. So if there is a huge company, if they produce in Brazil, They're doing cleaner than producing anywhere else, right?
Speaker: So when you think about this, the agenda of climate transition is not our main worry. We should not be worried that too much because we do not have coal here.
Speaker: We do not depend on gas. We have clean energy. At the same time, it's very hard because all the big funds, when they get here, They want to invest in climate transition because that's the agenda that it's in their minds. That's what they know.
Speaker: And we say, why? Why do this in Brazil? We don't need it. 86% of our energy is clean, man. Why are you doing this? Fine. On the other side, we have a huge problem, which is deforestation, right? Our carbon emissions come from deforestation, half of it's deforestation. So if we are huge in in agro, we should be Saying, okay, this will be easier for us. Let's care about restoration, the land.
Speaker: And of course, it's not easy because it's a huge country and every place in this country is different, right? So I'll give one example.
Speaker: we There are now products and funds and structures to invest in agroforestry systems. Agroforestry system is like, okay, you're going to produce cocoa, but together with banana and something else, but not only one thing, right?
Speaker: So one of the the main companies doing this in Brazil It's called Belterra. The reason they exist and they started is because our mining company, Vale do Rio Doce, Vale, had the accident many years ago.
Speaker: And after all the accident, one of the agreements was, OK, you need to restore this amount of land. that It's insanely big. So they called this guy and said, okay, we need to do this.
Speaker: We're going to help you start this company. And the idea was, okay, I will do cocoa with agroforestation system all over the country with small producers.
Speaker: You say, oh my God, this is beautiful because you're going to generate more resources to the small producers. You're going to regenerate territory. You're going to export cocoa and absorb carbon. So this is all beautiful.
Speaker: It's beautiful, but it's so complicated and it takes a long time to work. So the way this they structured this ah was a fund where...
Speaker: The company, the mining company has this institute, this NGO that donates to the subordinated cult, right? And this makes easier to other investments to take that risk because they are giving you the catalytic part, right?
Speaker: So they did this. The company is in its fifth year now, and it's been learning a lot. It requires a lot of people in the ground. So you need to train these people. It takes a long time, but then it needs to happen, right? So now you have more funds from the National Development Bank, Catalytic as well, to help this company.
Speaker: And for the investors here that cannot take all this risk, We can invest in the senior part of the fund that has a return above the the basic interest rate, which is fine, right?
Speaker: That is also only possible because, you know, you have the catalytic quote from Vale. And then you have more examples like that happening now because this guy started and it was super hot. But now other funds are starting, some to do regenerative agriculture, which is we are a huge producer of soil.
Speaker: But soil, as you know, it's monoculture. It's tough. So now you have big producers saying, I will regenerate this.
Speaker: So one of the structures is this type of funds with subordinated code. And another way is, I cannot say the name yet, but there is a huge European company that because of their ESG compromises, they will invest in Brazil at lower rate to be able to finance regenerative agriculture.
Speaker: So this is great, right? Because they do two things. They're helping finance the change for these agriculture producers. And also they are the offtakers.
Speaker: So in all these cases, you have big offtakers. So this is a huge innovation for the agro industry in Brazil. It's great because it regenerates the territory, which is our main problem. It gives more jobs. It brings more science.
Speaker: It changed the mind of the the agriculture sector. It's very difficult. they They don't change their minds very easy, right? They need to see the neighbor and they need to see the neighbor for three or four years. And then they believe that that's happening. Otherwise, they will not change.
Speaker: And if they see all that, then they change. So this this type of products are coming up and we we've been seeing a lot of innovation.
Speaker: And then we get in we help however we can putting these products up and we can invest in the senior part of of these structures. Wow, fantastic.
Speaker: Maybe to, as kind of a mini wrap up on this part, what would you like to see? What can unlock more change in the right direction in in Brazil? yeah Wow, I keep saying that this is a about mindset shift.
Speaker: right? We already seen a lot of it because of this huge lines. So you only move the financial system if you have advantages, right? And this is happening.
Speaker: and But I see a lot of mindset shift with the new generation. So these guys are questioning much more, right? They are the ones who come and say, okay, I want to know What's the impact behind my portfolio?
Speaker: So I think this is the the hardest part. But during this journey, I saw so many heroes inside the government, inside the regulator, inside the National Development Bank. And I call them heroes because...
Speaker: They will work a lot and they have no extra bonus for that, but they are doing the biggest transformation ever. So this is heroes.
Speaker: So one of them works in the regulator and the other day he wrote to me saying, thank you so much because now I am a bureaucratic end of mission.
Speaker: but but but Which is great, right? Because the mission brought him life. And so I keep thinking it's about people. It's about people.
Speaker: When I talk to institutions or government or whoever, I try to, you know, I ignore the institution and I talk to the person. And if the person gets it, you can do change.
Speaker: Yes, absolutely. It's always about Yes. This episode is also an opportunity for you to celebrate. So I want to ask you, what are you most proud of? Or maybe a few things that you are really proud of in this amazing journey of Rose.
Speaker: Well, I think it in the beginning, you know, when I, my husband and I, we decided to do this, I looked at him and I was like, oh my God, we're not going to have any clients. We are going to starve to death.
Speaker: And he's like, no way. You know, I'm sure one day the clients will come to us because of line of ah the alignment and He was right.
Speaker: if This is happening. Of course, it's not easy because you have others, like lots of people claiming they do this, and but it's not for real.
Speaker: And it takes a while until the clients discover that it's not for real. But it's it's really very nice to see that we were able to do this. Of course, we want to do more.
Speaker: We want more people in the system to join. but already It's been amazing. And one of the things I think this is, I get a lot of people from the investment world that I probably, they haven't have the opportunity to go into a community or you know, really meet the community and,
Speaker: Lately, I've been doing a lot of that. And there are great things happening because of that. Good things. And sometimes we just need to try another way.
Speaker: doesn't I think if we get too intellectual and keep discussing intellectually, it we won't change. We need to get the people and take them there. And maybe, you know, this would touch their hearts.
Speaker: And then they say, oh my God, I understood you. So... I think this is one of the the nice things to see this. Yes, so important to go into the communities. And yeah, that's a great kind of act of practice that you are doing there.
Speaker: I want to ask you a question that I'm asking all of my guests. How does it feel to be a woman doing this job? Well, in the beginning, I was talking about this.
Speaker: When I started, I was still in school and I had to work. So I started at was 16 and I started in the brokerage house. It was only me and another woman and 60 men.
Speaker: And by then i understood I had to adapt, just dress like them, adapt, adapt, And for many, many years, I adapted very much.
Speaker: And ah one day i was so adapted that it was shocking because I looked into my friends and they were so like, oh, dressing feminine, you know, and I became really tough.
Speaker: And I called this friend of mine one day, seven in the morning, and I called her. was like, okay, what does the feminine do when they wake up? And she's like, are you kidding me? No.
Speaker: Are you serious? I'm serious. Yeah, you do. Brush your hair. And okay, what else? This is funny, but it's not funny because I had to relearn because it was so hard to survive, right?
Speaker: And after many years... At some point, you get used. And then one day, some women started coming saying, well, we need to increase the movement, right?
Speaker: And I was like, oh, is this really necessary? Yeah, it's necessary. Oh, okay. Because I was more ah worried about people starving from hunger, but okay, let's do that. And one of them said, hey let's do an event together with the CFA,
Speaker: in this theater in Brazil. And was like, the theater, this is not so big. who How many people do you think will come? And she's like, I don't know. else And in my mind, I thought, okay, maybe 40 women will come.
Speaker: So we organized the event, invited women from the markets to come. And in the day of the event, there were 600 women in the theater and and another 300 online.
Speaker: And I cried so much, I stopped breathing because I had no idea how important that was. This friend of mine started a company about this, but I couldn't believe.
Speaker: i was like, this is insane. But I think... it got a lot better for us today. Right Capital is one of the few, probably, you know, wealth management firms at more than 50, we have what, 56% here are women.
Speaker: And even in the shareholder, the partnership, it's more women. And because of that, a lot of things here are different, more diversity, different way of thinking, more flexibility. It's,
Speaker: different and the performance keeps very well didn't change but no it's important right but this is it right and we have a partner she just had uh babies and she needs more time And she's doing it and her performance didn't change. She just works different hours. That's fine.
Speaker: But she delivers and we get this. So I think this is, it is changing. Of course, we need a lot more, but it makes me happy to see that we walked a lot.
Speaker: Yes. Thank you for sharing this journey. Thank you so much. As we're getting close to the end of this episode, i have three quick questions for you. First one, what is keeping you optimistic?
Speaker: This new generation, I think, which is really different. they They question a lot. My son is one of them. He's nine and he drives me nuts.
Speaker: I think another thing, because of the AI, we are going through a very weird time with regards to mind health issues.
Speaker: right? Depression. On the other side, I see a lot of of questioning and new ways coming. So I think we we need to find this life balancing quick.
Speaker: So I see a lot of new consulting and firms coming on this way, I think this is important because we're going to work in a different way. And I keep saying, look, AI will take over. That's fine. But there's one thing that will not prevail. It's love.
Speaker: Human beings need human beings. We need to be together. need hugs. So this won't change, right? So on this side, I'm i'm optimistic.
Speaker: And going to the communities, I see a lot of power, a lot of capacity. And so it makes me optimistic that this impact work is able to make more bridges and get we bring hope.
Speaker: to people. So I think this is, and in Brazil, you know, we are very, how do you say, we are, we like samba, we dance, and we we are not a country of war.
Speaker: So we don't have this here, but we have a lot of violence, right? At the same time. But the violence is a consequence of inequality. So I think, again, if we are able to tackle that using impact, climate,
Speaker: And all the E of the ESG to solve the S. That is very smart, right? I think all the countries, in especially the global south, should do this. Use the E to solve the S. This is a good way.
Speaker: That's beautiful. Thank you. Who or what is inspiring you? yeah. Well, they there are different ones, right? i have my Buddhist monks that I really admire. And of course, it's very hard to get to that stage. And I'm so agitated that i'm I have a hard time stopping and meditating.
Speaker: But for example, people like Yvon Chonhard from Patagonia, it's an inspiration, right? Patagonia, it's an amazing company. They were able to change the core, right? They they think about people and environmental 100% of the time.
Speaker: And now he donated the company to Planet Earth, which is, wow, amazing. So yes, he is an inspiration. I'm also very inspired with Nandan Nilekani from India because Nandan started the digital ID.
Speaker: And one thing that he said in 2009 that never leaves my mind is that in 2009, India had 1.3 billion people with no ID, no documents, anything. And, you you know, you it was like a big favela.
Speaker: And he said, look, the people are a liability to the country at the moment. And the only way to transform the liability into asset, it's to empower people, empower the people. And this is what they've been doing since. They digitalized 1.4 billion people today, gave them access to credit, gave them access to to house.
Speaker: They're doing different things on education. But the biggest inspiration is because the data stays there. They don't allow the big techs to use their data.
Speaker: It's their data, right? So people on the data and this changes everything. That's for me very inspiring as well. And people like Cyrano Cohen as well. And I think this is, there are many in different areas.
Speaker: Yes, absolutely. Thank you for sharing. Are you reading anything that you would like to share with the audience? At the moment, I was reading a lot of spiritual things, but just make let me get David, just to get the final, the name one second.
Speaker: There is a book called Let Go from David Hawkins. It has a lot to do with the ego. Not simple to get there, but it helps a lot. But because I think, you know, what makes us an unhappy is our ego.
Speaker: If we can manage that, we'll be fine. Brilliant. It's interesting because you are not the first one to tell me about this book. So I definitely need to get it Thank you so much.
Speaker: This has been such a wonderful conversation. Do you have any final thoughts, final recommendation or any call to action for the listeners? Yeah, I just think whatever you you should...
Speaker: Try. Sometimes it feels small or it's a lot of work, but we should do it either way. I think there is a saying in the anthroposophic thinking that they say that the seed is the only thing that can keep the potential through eternity.
Speaker: So if we think about that, we should plant seeds. That's it. Yes. Fernanda, thank you. Thank you so much for your time today. it was really great to have you on the show.
Speaker: Thank you. It's wonderful. Thank you, Christina. Thank you.
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