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E32 - Sana Kapadia, Chief Catalyst at Heading for Change
51 Plays14 days ago
Women are among those most affected by climate change. But what if we've been telling the wrong story? In this episode, Sana Kapadia, Chief Catalyst at Heading for Change, shares what she’s seeing in many countries: women are already creating many of the most innovative solutions to climate change. The real challenge is that climate finance hasn't caught up. Together, we explore what it really means to invest at the intersection of climate and gender, and why this is about making better investment decisions. Sana shares how her team is using catalytic capital to demonstrate what's possible, building a global portfolio of climate funds that back women-led climate solutions, from clean energy and sustainable supply chains to nature-based innovations. In our conversation, we discuss why a gender lens helps investors uncover innovation and opportunities that are often overlooked, and how grants, investments, and ecosystem building can work together to unlock greater impact. This episode shows why and how finance can move beyond seeing women as beneficiaries and start recognising them as leaders, innovators, and agents of change.
Please review the episode, share your feedback, and subscribe to the podcast!
You can also
- Visit our website: womenchangingfinance.org
- Follow Sana on LinkedIn
To go further, here are some of the references mentioned during the episode:
- Heading for Change — https://www.headingforchange.org/
- GenderSmart — https://www.gendersmartinvesting.org/
- Wharton Social Impact Initiative — https://socialimpact.wharton.upenn.edu/
- Artha Networks — https://www.arthanetworks.com/
- Invest for Better — https://investforbetter.org/
- Climate Policy Initiative (CPI) — https://www.climatepolicyinitiative.org/
- IDRC (International Development Research Centre) — https://idrc-crdi.ca/
- Earthshot Prize — https://earthshotprize.org/
- Zen and the Art of Saving the Planet (book/course by Thích Nhất Hạnh) — https://plumvillage.org/books/zen-and-the-art-of-saving-the-planet
- Empireworld (book by Sathnam Sanghera) — https://www.sathnam.com/empireworld/
- The History of the World in 21 Women (book by Jenni Murray) — https://oneworld-publications.com/work/a-history-of-the-world-in-21-women/
Women Changing Finance is part of the Impact Alpha Podcast Network.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Women Changing Finance'
00:00:05
Speaker
Hi, welcome to the podcast Women Changing Finance, where you will discover amazing women from all around the world who are making finance become a force for good.
00:00:21
Speaker
Welcome to the podcast Women Changing Finance.
Introducing Sana Kapadia and Heading for Change
00:00:24
Speaker
I'm Christina Torra and I'm welcoming today Sana Kapadia, Chief Catalyst at Heading for Change, which is a donor-advised fund that makes catalytic investments and grants that accelerate solutions to the climate crisis and advance gender equity.
00:00:39
Speaker
Sana is a passionate gender smart investing specialist and a global changemaker. It's really wonderful to have her on the show today. Welcome, Sana.
Exploring Heading for Change's Role and Structure
00:00:48
Speaker
My first question is very simple.
00:00:50
Speaker
Can you tell us more about heading for change? What is a donor-advised fund? And what is the organization's mission? How do you play your role in this space?
00:01:01
Speaker
Well, wonderful. Thank you so much for having me, Christina. Where to start? Okay, so... so Heading for Change is, yes, a donor advice fund. And we were seeded by the amazing and indomitable Suzanne Beagle, who's a dear friend and partner in this work of building the field of gender lens investing. And Suzanne created GenderSmart about six or seven years ago that was really focused on bringing together all the actors in the gender lens investing space.
00:01:30
Speaker
And before, so Suzanne had a terminal illness that she was diagnosed with in 2022. And before she passed, Suzanne had this idea to c seed an endowment that would advance the climate and gender finance nexus.
00:01:47
Speaker
And that's how Heading for Change was born. Suzanne came up with the idea in Jan 2023. And by April, we were established and ready to go in complete Suzanne fashion.
00:01:59
Speaker
And what was in Suzanne's mind and vision was to be able to demonstrate that not only is it possible to invest at the climate and gender nexus, but that there is an abundance of opportunity and we can co-create the tools to help move others along.
Understanding the Donor-Advised Fund Model
00:02:17
Speaker
And I'm sure we can get into some of those specifics. But in terms of what it means to be a donor advised fund, this is a structure that is quite US centric, but I have seen versions come up in different markets.
00:02:31
Speaker
And it basically enables the pooling of philanthropic capital. but which can then be put to use to both impact investing and grant making and other broader impact initiatives. And so that's how we're set up. And through that mechanism, we've been able to build out an investment portfolio of 18 climate funds globally with Agenda Lens, as well as do a set of catalytic grants and engage in various field building activities. So it's a really cool vehicle to know get things off the ground and to demonstrate that you can have a full portfolio approach of investing, grant making, ecosystem initiatives all through an umbrella. can dive into some more details.
00:03:16
Speaker
That's wonderful. I want to know more definitely about those three dimensions.
Examples of Impact and Interconnection in Investments
00:03:21
Speaker
But perhaps before we go into that, can you give some examples to illustrate your work?
00:03:26
Speaker
And then we'll, yeah, I would love to learn more about this and also how they work together, the investments, the grants, and also the field building work. Yeah, happy to. So on the investment side, you know when we started to scan the market, there are lots of incredible private market opportunities. And actually, one of the pieces of work that Suzanne used to do with her catalyst at Large Hat was Project Sage, which was in partnership with Wharton Social Impact. And it was a scan of the private market funds with general lens.
00:04:01
Speaker
And when they first started doing the research, there were maybe 60 funds in 2018. And then the most recent research as of 2023 has an estimation of, I think, over 170 funds and more than half actually have a climate and gender lens. Also speaking to the fact that climate is becoming more of an area of focus.
00:04:23
Speaker
And so that was our broader pipeline that we were working with.
Global Climate Funds and Gender Integration
00:04:27
Speaker
And then in terms of our specific strategy, we wanted to demonstrate that there is both breadth and depth.
00:04:35
Speaker
And so the 18 funds that we have invested in They're across regions. So in Africa, we have three funds. And even within that continent, there's variants. So those three in Africa, for example, are the Catalyst Fund, Kawasaki Ventures, and Sahara Impact Ventures.
00:04:54
Speaker
Now, each of those has a beautiful climate and gender integration story in itself. Kawasaki is more of an established manager. Sahara Impact Ventures, these are two amazing West African companies fund managers really trying to support the just transition in their context, but it's a next generation fund that's just getting out of the gate.
00:05:15
Speaker
So that it was also important for us to have variants within a region. And again, like just being able to invest in three funds, there's probably like a hundred, right? On the African continent alone.
00:05:27
Speaker
to that just to give you a bit of a flavor. And then we similarly have, we've invested in Latin America, in Europe, North America, South Asia, Southeast Asia.
00:05:37
Speaker
so the whole gambit really, and it's ah it's a beautiful visual when you look at the portfolio. And it's also across a range of climate themes of mitigation, adaptation, and resilience. And underneath that, climate tech, water and oceans, forestry, nature-based solutions. So the whole gambit.
00:05:56
Speaker
And that really helps to demonstrate that there is a broad and budding pipeline of opportunities at this nexus.
Regional Finance Differences and Gender Criteria
00:06:04
Speaker
I'm happy to share more on the example side, but what we were looking for as we were building out this portfolio is climate funds, first and foremost, that are then integrating gender to varying degrees.
00:06:18
Speaker
But it always has to go beyond, is there a woman fund manager or is it run by women employees? The depth of the gender lens is also what we were looking for through the entire process. And that's how we've put together this beautiful mosaic of 18 funds and yeah happy to share more as well.
00:06:38
Speaker
That's so interesting. So you invest in a lot of the geographies and it's more a thematic investment. Do you see differences or similarities between the funds in those those geographies?
00:06:51
Speaker
Perhaps actually even differences like what what are the unique kind of characteristics? Yeah, it's it's interesting to be able to reflect on this. I think that so there are some commonalities between emerging market funds.
00:07:05
Speaker
For instance, they tend to apply and have more blended finance structures where they're able to have more of a catalytic tier of capital, maybe even technical assistance, and then some more senior tranches that are more commercial in nature. I think that's a relatively common theme. And I think that's also driven by the fact that in these markets.
00:07:28
Speaker
A lot of the DFIs, the multilateral development banks tend to be more present and active as investors. And so there's the ability then to nurture that gender work also through technical assistance.
00:07:40
Speaker
I think there's other commonalities, for example, even in context, which you wouldn't necessarily expect just on the surface. So for instance, in Latin America, labor force participation in terms of women,
00:07:55
Speaker
might be 20%, but actually the criteria baseline that you have is 30%. Now, are you going to exclude a fund or a portfolio company because it doesn't meet that criteria?
00:08:10
Speaker
Well, no, we have to take things into context. They may be at 20% today, but what are the things that can be done over time? And we found a similar trend, let's say, in South Asia.
00:08:20
Speaker
Both of our, we made one investment into a fund in India and one into a fund in Pakistan. And know they're dealing with really sticky social norms, deep structural barriers that hold women back from going into leadership positions and having that sustained over time.
00:08:38
Speaker
So very different geographies, but similar dynamics. In terms of differences, though, I think that the way that climate and gender integration gets applied in context can look different even in a region. so for example, if we go back to the Africa, the three funds that I mentioned in Africa,
00:08:58
Speaker
The way that climate and gender is showing up in the West African context is quite different. You have countries like Nigeria, like Ghana, that are quite advanced in some ways.
00:09:10
Speaker
And there are lots especially in Nigeria, so many of the businesses are woman-owned. But if you look in other parts of Africa, there's more of that ecosystem pipeline development and build that needs to happen.
00:09:22
Speaker
So what was important in our analysis was to also really be aware of context. Let's see other other differences. i think maybe there's also something to be said about the state of awareness of how gender can be applied as like a a factor and a lever of analysis. I think sometimes in the South Asia, Southeast Asian context, there's more of a broader sustainability theme that captures impact and other sort of social dimensions.
00:09:55
Speaker
And if you don't necessarily see things in materials, it doesn't mean that the funds or portfolio companies are not deeply thinking about it. So I think as investors, we also have to see, you have to adopt ah a diligence process that really enables us to to understand what's going on from within and ask different questions to really maybe bring some of that more implicit work out.
00:10:20
Speaker
But again, that's... I think it shows up more in certain regions than in others. And of course, right now, anything in the North American context, especially in the US, there are challenges with how we're even legally allowed to talk about some of these topics. I think, yeah, that's definitely more of a pressing and timely issue these days.
00:10:44
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I wanted to ask also is how do the investments interact with the grants? Like, do you have kind of a, also a synergetic approach to brand making?
00:10:58
Speaker
Yes. So one of the things that was very important and as part of heading for changes DNA is the sort of convening aspect, right? It's always bringing people together and connecting dots.
00:11:11
Speaker
So on the portfolio side, first of all, we bring our entire portfolio together for these learning circles so that we can share. And you know, your question about what are the similarities? What are the differences across regions?
00:11:24
Speaker
And then some of that, of course, filters into the broader ecosystem in our universe so that we can share what we're learning. When it comes to the interplay between the investments and the grants, so there's a few examples.
00:11:36
Speaker
One of our grants was with... Arthur Networks, and they built out a pipeline platform to feature this, not just our portfolio, but the broader list of opportunities.
00:11:49
Speaker
And so then that becomes a place that we can point other investors and allocators to, as well as the funds have a place to showcase what they're doing. So there was always that intentionality to say, let's make sure that this grant capital enables us to spotlight and feature what these opportunities look like.
00:12:11
Speaker
The other one is we have partnered with Invest for Better, which is a US-based organization that focuses on enhancing women's financial and broader investment literacy.
00:12:25
Speaker
And we've done two cohorts. with Invest for Better. And those have been fantastic because it's been a way to bring together a group primarily of women investors or those who are more curious, as well as some intermediaries and advisors into a safe space where we can really talk about what does this look like? What are the tools? How do I do this?
00:12:48
Speaker
And we just wrapped up a second cohort and it was really phenomenal to hear that at the end of the cohort, you I think it was about 10 people in the group.
00:12:58
Speaker
More than half have already are in diligence on some of the funds, not some including in our portfolio, or they've gone on to make gender lens investments.
00:13:10
Speaker
one of the individuals also set up her own donor advice fund over the course of the program. So really like seeing the possibility of how you can move others was very much built into the types of grants and making sure again, that we can feature the investment opportunities,
00:13:28
Speaker
With accredited investors within those groups, we've also been sharing our investment memos because a huge part for us is providing our learnings and making sure it's not just our capital, but the other capital that we can mobilize at the same time. So yes, a very synergistic sort of capital plus approach is how I like to describe our work.
00:13:50
Speaker
Yeah, that's wonderful. And also very catalytic. So by doing a small kind of grant to an organization, then you enable lots more to happen.
00:14:00
Speaker
I want to come back to, you know, your core mission, which is around both climate and gender. For the audience, it might remain conceptual. So can you dive more into how these two topics kind of intersect, how one helps the other and and how you think about this in your work?
Gender Lens Investing and Climate Solutions
00:14:21
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So the field of gender lens investing has now been around for two decades, let's say. And gender lens investing is the practice of using gender analysis alongside financial analysis for better outcomes.
00:14:37
Speaker
Bringing climate and gender together is actually something that we, from an investment standpoint, we had been working from gender smart days to really convene, again, investors around why we need to sort of think about the opportunities that exist in climate with a gender perspective and then gender with a climate perspective.
00:14:58
Speaker
Why is this material? so on the one side, there's a lot of data and stats out there around how gender unaware climate finance is. So just some stats.
00:15:09
Speaker
Last year's Climate Policy Initiative report puts climate finance flows at $1.9 trillion. 99% of that is gender unaware.
00:15:21
Speaker
Similarly, you look at overseas development systems, how much has been mobilized with a gender lensed.
00:15:28
Speaker
0.01%. You can see a trend in blended finance deals. Only about 20% of them have a gender lens. So this also tallies with the famous 98% of venture capital goes to white men rather than women. So there is definitely a theme in terms of the funding gap.
00:15:46
Speaker
And that you know you can see that very visibly in climate change. entrepreneurship as well. The other side is that women, yes, are disproportionately impacted by the climate crisis, whether it's climate refugees in terms of health, all of these negative outcomes.
00:16:02
Speaker
But what's been really important for us is bump up the narrative that we see on the ground, which is that women are showing up as agents of change. They're coming up with the solutions. They may be at the the front lines, but they're also at the forefront of innovation.
00:16:20
Speaker
And we see that physically through our portfolio and thepo you know the companies that they support where, for example, the capitalist fund in Africa, they've done so much work on the pipeline building side and are really then able to build up the ecosystem. I think at least one, if not two of their investees Definitely one I think was shortlisted or became an Earthshot prize winners. They're onto some ideas that are in supporting initiatives that are local, that are proximate.
00:16:52
Speaker
And that's what bringing a Agenda Lens to climate investing is about, is being able to not just mitigate your risk from a systemic perspective, but be able to really see where opportunity lies, where innovation is happening, who's driving it, who's at the table, who's not being funded, what that opportunity, that alpha opportunity could look like,
00:17:16
Speaker
and how ultimately, as an investor, you can better future-proof your portfolio. You can be investing in tomorrow's leaders today and be able to really create an opportunity for yourself and drive sort of longer-term value and sustained growth over time.
00:17:37
Speaker
So that's why we have brought this work And you know what's amazing is that we're not alone in this. There are lots of other development finance institutions, other family offices, foundations, intermediaries.
00:17:50
Speaker
In the last five or six years, there's been so much more attention around this topic. And what excites me is that we're seeing more of these examples and case studies and whether it's from acumen whether it's, you know, there's some ongoing research right now with the IDRC around climate and gender fund managers.
00:18:11
Speaker
There's GSEARCH 2.0 is about to spool up next year. And this was a partnership between ACUMEN Alpha Mundi Foundation, AHL Venture Partners. So we're in this really interesting phase where a lot of the field building efforts that we were working on the last number of years are now being matched with investment capital so that our bank of case studies and examples is getting more. And I think over time, we should be able to really demonstrate that an integrated climate and gender investing lens
00:18:47
Speaker
is producing stronger climate, financial and social outcomes. That's amazing. Thank you. And do you have any examples of those innovations that women are driving for climate change?
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So if you think about some of the portfolio companies within our funds, for instance, you have supply chain capital in the US, for instance, where one of their portfolio companies is working on non-coffee-based coffee with working with supply chains in Costa Rica.
00:19:21
Speaker
Again, women-owned business. native to that country. Why are they working on that type of product? Well, the coffee supply chain has its own issues and dynamics and again, to create a more sustained pathway for change. So that's like a very specific example of a bear.
00:19:42
Speaker
We see it also in other ways, right? So for us, when we think about women as agents of change, that could be the innovators themselves, but it could also be within at the fund level? Like what are the things that the fund is doing? Do they have impact link carry? How are they really sort of supporting growth of, you know, younger investment professionals over time so that there there's also income and wealth creation over time? So it takes...
00:20:12
Speaker
form in that way too. But in terms of other businesses, like we've seen, for example, some intersection between women's health and climate. And I think that's an exciting one too, because there's more research coming out with regards to the health impacts of climate. So Unconventional Ventures, which is Europe-based investee, one of their investments has gone into this woman's health business.
00:20:38
Speaker
that is in some ways indirectly looking at climate, but is equally sort of important. And actually they just had a se a first close on their fund too. So clearly their thesis is onto something.
00:20:50
Speaker
In other geographies, let's see, we have... ah One of our big investees is Just Climate, which is an institutional level fund. And one of their investments is in a sort of green steel business in Sweden. And so that's like much higher scale infrastructure,
00:21:11
Speaker
The way that they're thinking about gender inclusion and social equity in that way is talking and designing with the local community to really figure out, okay, well, if we're going to be shifting this part of the supply chain on this part of the production process, what impact is that going to have on the ground?
00:21:30
Speaker
So there's different ways that innovation is showing up. And one of the things that we should definitely share with listeners is our insights report where we capture a lot of these case studies live. And you can see the different examples from a refrigeration business to Kawasaki using a gender lens to create more gender smart solar products, right? So there's lots of different examples that show the richness of how this can take shape.
00:21:58
Speaker
That's wonderful. Definitely, I will add that in the show notes. Let's think about what the future looks like for gender-smart, climate-aligned investing.
Capital Movement and Civil Society in Investing
00:22:11
Speaker
What needs to happen in the next, say, three to five years for gender-smart investment to be the norm rather than the exception?
00:22:23
Speaker
I mean, I think that this is always an interesting debate for me in some ways, because I feel like we spend a lot of time as a field, not just within gender, but even impact to say that everything needs to be mainstream.
00:22:38
Speaker
And that's true. And at the same time, i think we need, you need integrated approaches, and then you need deeply intentional approaches. If everything becomes integrated,
00:22:49
Speaker
like every aspect of social equality into impact and it just becomes one thing, we might lose some of that depth that I know is important to many of us. So I think we have to be okay with the field continuing to evolve where you have these sort of broader approaches where gender is used as one factor and then those that are more deeply transformative And in that future, i think that, especially at the climate and gender nexus, what we need to, and there's a few things, I think. One is that we need to keep moving the money first and foremost. Like we need to keep moving the capital.
00:23:28
Speaker
We can't let perfection be the enemy of good because we won't always know all the answers. We just have to keep going and hence things like what we've done to build out this demonstration portfolio.
00:23:39
Speaker
Put some marker out there and then we're going to learn and share and iterate and you know others will do their own version of that. We also need to keep sort of thinking through our tools. So we have co-created and put out a set of investment tools that are out there for everyone to use from a due diligence questionnaire to an investment scorecard, a portfolio construction tool,
00:24:01
Speaker
And these are, again, meant to be iterated and to keep being built on as well. So I think, and there's lots of other tools that are coming up now. So collectively keep refining, I think, the tools so we can use this in different contexts.
00:24:15
Speaker
But the other thing I would add is that capital is not just about private sector, public sector. There's other, you know, we need to figure out how we're going to be listening to more civil society voices, as even as we design new investment vehicles, think about really participatory methods to do that, even in terms of how we collect data. And then the policy piece, right? So I think right now what's top of mind for me is Like we're all waiting to see how the Baku to Belém roadmap in terms of the jumping up from 300 to 1.3 trillion. There's big work happening on the gender action plan.
00:24:52
Speaker
So I think that stuff is also really important in the policy space because then it helps to align private sector action. And so we need the whole concept of stakeholders, whether it's private sector, public sector, government,
00:25:08
Speaker
civil society, academics, researchers to really, you just have to keep doing the work and have to keep talking to each other and connecting dots, learning from each other too. And I think we in five years to to get back to your question, I'm positive that the database of examples will be deeper and wider We'll have to keep doing the work to keep moving the capital, that's for sure.
00:25:34
Speaker
But what I do see, which is encouraging, is I am seeing more private sector capital in particular, family offices, foundations, start to take a keener interest in more systems-based approaches too, of which climate and gender are a piece.
00:25:51
Speaker
So I think that will also start to filter through in terms of how capital moves at this nexus. And yeah, it's we've we've got to do it all to make it happen. Yes, absolutely. Lots of work, but I like your hopeful overall perspective.
00:26:06
Speaker
I'd like now to move to perhaps more personal questions about you.
Sana's Journey and Commitment to Finance as a Force for Good
00:26:11
Speaker
You're one of the pioneering voices on gender lens investing. Tell us about your journey. How did you get here?
00:26:18
Speaker
what led you to here? yeah Thank you, Christina. That's a lovely question to reflect on. i was thinking about this the other day. i don't know why, but I'll share.
00:26:29
Speaker
I think right from when I was a young girl, I remember being two or three going to... My parents are originally from India. i remember really being struck by the fact that sometimes poverty was really in your face.
00:26:43
Speaker
and finding that really challenging. So I think from a very early age, I was not okay with injustice and inequity around us. I think I was also really lucky to grow up in a household.
00:26:56
Speaker
My parents really believed in the power of education education. hardworking ethic and building integrity and really living your life by some core purposes of empathy.
00:27:08
Speaker
And I think you naturally just hold that with you and sort of it it stays in your core as you meander through work. I think I'm a creative person. And at the same time, when I was 17, deciding to go to university, I had no idea what wanted to do On my parents' advice, I did a degree in international business with a focus on finance.
00:27:31
Speaker
I've kept up my love of creative things like I was sharing with you. I have my own podcast. I write. I do write poetry as well. So I think that you can be an investor and also a poet. Why not?
00:27:44
Speaker
We all have many shades. Yeah. And then I did a master's in development economics. And I think that really helped sort of reframe some of the more traditional corporate finance traditional concepts of finance and paved my pathway into impact investing.
00:28:01
Speaker
But like I tell any young person when we're talking about journeys is that it is almost never a straight line. It's all squiggly. We all just need to figure out, find our feet. You also have to be open to opportunities. So I think that Some things in life call you and sometimes you know you manifest certain things as well. So have to follow that energy. And what I have come to realize now, like more than... It's hard to think about what 17, 18 years of working that...
00:28:34
Speaker
is that I really do believe that finance is tool for social change. And I am committed to figuring out how to keep doing it in the most transformative way that also addresses structural barriers, power dynamics, social norms, and we really work towards a more just and equitable financial system.
00:28:57
Speaker
That's a beautiful personal o mission. And I do relate to that one. Thank you. This is also the opportunity for you to reflect on achievements. So I would like to ask you, what are the things that, or what are, what is one thing that you are most proud of in this journey of, or achievements? Yeah.
00:29:16
Speaker
Well, i feel very grateful and privileged to have had a chance to do lots of amazing things. I definitely feel very proud of the work we've done at Heading for Change. It's truly, it's also deeply personal because as I mentioned, Suzanne Beagle is a friend and mentor and partner. So to be able to bring her vision a mission to life, you know, in the past two years, we've invested $2 million dollars towards building out this portfolio, 18 climate funds that collectively managed 2.8 billion. Like it feels amazing to be able to have done that. And within a fantastic team, as well as an incredible advisory circle around us, that feels wonderful. I feel very proud of our seminal work at Gender Smart that really helped propel the field of gender lens investing forward.
00:30:04
Speaker
Yeah, some of the work I've done when it relates to blended finance at this intersection, impacting finance for the gender lens, Yeah, lots of wonderful things and moments to be proud of. It's a lovely question to reflect on. Thank you for asking.
00:30:18
Speaker
Thank you for doing the exercise. I also have a question that I'm asking all my guests.
Challenges and Opportunities for Women in Finance
00:30:25
Speaker
How do you feel to be a woman doing this job? I think you if you'd asked me that question when I was in my 20s, I have to say, when you're younger, in some ways, you don't even recognize some of the biases that you're up against. It's only later in life that you can kind of see because I started my career in finance here in the Middle East.
00:30:46
Speaker
And yeah, boy, thats lots of things that were less than kosher, so to speak, at that time, but I just didn't have the awareness necessarily in the moment.
00:30:57
Speaker
I think that what has shifted even in the last decade of really going deep on this work is I feel our in the gender space, there's more attention towards intersectionality. So it does, you know, we are thinking about not just different identities, but other aspects of power dynamics, et cetera.
00:31:17
Speaker
I guess, is it still a male dominated industry? I think what's fascinating is that for some reason, gender equality remains pigeonholed as a woman's issue.
00:31:28
Speaker
So when we tend to convene gender lens investing or even climate and gender investing, it's mostly women who show up. So that's a fascinating dynamic, I think. And I feel we need to keep double clicking on the fact that gender equality is about everybody. It is not a woman's issue. So actually some of those pure finance dynamics that you have, which is more male dominated, you don't see it as much in our space.
00:31:55
Speaker
And a little bit, I would you know extend that to impact investing. i think for me, what the seeds and why this work is important is Well, if you're not taking into account 50% of the world's population, then clearly that's a missed opportunity for ideas and innovation.
00:32:12
Speaker
um But ultimately, we're trying to... Don't we all want to live in a world that just works well for everybody? you know i have a a son and a daughter. i don't want my son to have more opportunities just because of his gender vice versa. So the work, I think, is also deeply...
00:32:32
Speaker
personal. And as a parent, what I feel called to and keep sharing with my kids, all I can do is sort of give them this knowledge. And I'll have these real moments of pride where, for example, my son came to me the other day and said, mom, we played football and PE today, but none of the girls got to play football. What's up with that? Because girls were taken to play netball. And he was like, but how and why?
00:32:58
Speaker
So when you concede that this is something that all of us need to think about, I feel, and hence even in finance, I think that's part of it is illuminating that there's something that maybe we're not aware of in the way that questions are asked to women versus as men. And I also don't want to play down the challenges. I think, for example, if you are a first-time woman African, local African fund manager, the types of issues that you face is very different than if you show up as a white woman...
00:33:31
Speaker
American fund manager, like even within groups of women, there are different challenges. so I think we just need to yeah keep being aware of these things.
00:33:41
Speaker
And the other fact is that it's not unique to finance. We see the same challenges. across all sectors. And I kind of like what they've done in the women's sports space to really bring up how amazing women athletes are.
00:33:58
Speaker
So if we do something similar, I think in finance, maybe that bring that analogy of sport together. I don't know, maybe there's something there to create more attention, but it's it's a good question on that. I'd like to mull over it a bit more.
00:34:12
Speaker
Brilliant. Yes. Well, I hope that this podcast can contribute to that, showing all the amazing women in finance and what they're doing to change the world. I have three quick questions for you.
Optimism and Inspiration from People and Children
00:34:24
Speaker
What's keeping you optimistic?
00:34:26
Speaker
I think it's people who keep showing up to do the work. Like yourself, you're here to create a forum so that we can really shine a light on women's leadership.
00:34:38
Speaker
I think it's each of the fund managers in our portfolio who are putting up with some of those challenges some of the development and funding cuts. The portfolio companies and the but women and consumers on the ground, it's really those frontline, people who are at the frontline of climate change who are doing their best.
00:34:58
Speaker
Again, thinking about some of those images from COP30, where you have the entrenched fossil fuel lobby showing up in the Amazon and images of indigenous people's not being allowed into the space, but they're still showing up and holding the line.
00:35:14
Speaker
So that really gives me optimism. And also we we just have to keep at it. Yes, absolutely. Who or what is inspiring you? It's going to be very cheesy, but I really do think my kids inspire me a lot.
00:35:29
Speaker
They're both very different. I love, like I gave you that example of my son, but I love the fact that he's so bold and he'll try anything. And my daughter has, she just loses kindness and is super intelligent. She's a coder and a scuba diver at age 10. So if she can do that at age 10, like...
00:35:49
Speaker
She's sorted. The world is good. So cheesy, yes, but I do find my own kids super inspiring. Super. And I'm sure that there is so much that we can learn from them.
00:36:00
Speaker
Are you reading anything you would like to recommend
Mindfulness, Reading, and a Call to Action
00:36:04
Speaker
to the audience? audience This is the wrong question to ask me because I'm reading a lot all the time.
00:36:11
Speaker
as you might see, I have multiple books. That's just one shelf. I have five on the other side. Right now, actually, I'm reading a book which is called Zen and the Art of Saving the Planet.
00:36:23
Speaker
And it's tied to a course that I'm doing, which is also... and Over the last years, I have been really going deeper on Buddhist teachings and Zen and really developing more of my own mindfulness practice.
00:36:36
Speaker
So that course in the book is is beautiful and is a real gift to myself. I also have another book I was just looking called Empire World, which is how British imperialism has shaped the globe.
00:36:49
Speaker
So I should say that I mostly read a lot of nonfiction because I just find it, whether it's finance, economics, history, politics, feminism. They got another book, which is called The History of the World in 21 Objects Made by Women. So yeah, lots of I'm happy to share some of these, but the one on Zen is really beautiful. And I think that that is helping me also maintain my center in this calm and this storm that we live in right now. So yes, lots of book recommendations.
00:37:21
Speaker
Yes. And inspiration also for the work. Thank you so much. We are at the end of this episode. Do you have any recommendations, any tips, or maybe an ask or request from the audience?
00:37:36
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much for for the time together and the beautiful journey. And ask, that's always a good one. I think our fundamental belief at Heading for Change is that all finance can be climate smart and gender smart.
00:37:52
Speaker
So go figure out one thing that you can do, whether it's to read, to learn, to invest. Each of us has some influence and power. go do the one thing that you can do next.
00:38:03
Speaker
to take a next step. And, you know, and I know you said in your show notes, you can share some of the tools and resources that we have. So there's places where a lot of, you know, knowledge and insights resides.
00:38:15
Speaker
let's keep unlocking gender and climate finance at scale. A great call to action. Thank you so much, Sana, for your time today. It was really great to spend this conversation together.
00:38:26
Speaker
and yeah, let's keep connected. thank you so much it's been a pleasure
00:38:35
Speaker
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00:38:47
Speaker
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00:38:58
Speaker
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00:39:13
Speaker
Women Changing Finance is part of the Impact Alpha podcast network. Smart conversations by and for impact investing professionals.