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Season Six: Holiday Episode 15 (2025)
26 Plays33 minutes ago
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Transcript
Introduction and Content Warning
00:00:00
Speaker
The content you're about to hear may be graphic in nature. Listener discretion is advised.
True Crime XS Show Introduction
00:00:50
Speaker
This is True Crime XS.
Hostage Situations and Learning
00:00:59
Speaker
We are now really deep into hostage-taking episodes. And had planned one thing for this episode, because it's like, you know, once you get like 15 episodes into a thing, like you're doing a theme, it's you you learn quite a few things about it as as you go along and you see patterns and whatnot.
00:01:22
Speaker
I don't think that you can talk about hostage taking without talking
Famous Hostage Situation Overview
00:01:27
Speaker
about this. And I'm going to go ahead and say that like what we're about to talk about has been covered in other media. i I want to say the Criminal Podcast covered it, and I think there's like multiple things that you can like go online and watch in terms of...
00:01:43
Speaker
ah ah movies and maybe a miniseries or two, but this is like one of the penultimate, uh, sort of hostage taking incidents that we're getting
Clark Olofsson's Role in Hostage Incident
00:01:56
Speaker
into today. But what I wanted to do was to kind of talk about it from the perspective, um, of someone who passed away this year.
00:02:07
Speaker
Because they were involved in this.
Clark Olofsson's Troubled Youth
00:02:09
Speaker
And um I guess in later years, he's known as ah Daniel de Munch. But how we would know him, like when he's born and like from his life, is as Clark Odorth Olofsson.
00:02:26
Speaker
you know, so that takes us to Sweden. I think people know with just the names there. ah Clark is born back in February of 1947 in a place called Trollhutten.
00:02:38
Speaker
And he is born into a home that has a lot going on. He's gonna end up with two younger sisters. His dad does ah road work. um i I think that's how it all translates. I've seen it listed as just being an asphalt worker, and at first I thought it might be like roofing type stuff.
00:02:58
Speaker
ah That does not seem to be the case. His mom is a cashier. So by the time Clark Olofsson is 11 years old, his dad has gone out for a pack of cigarettes.
00:03:13
Speaker
And never came back.
Clark's Early Criminal Activities
00:03:14
Speaker
Right. So pretty soon after that, you know, his mom is dealing with two problems.
00:03:23
Speaker
One is she's lost half her income. And the other problem is she has now got to deal with Clark and two kids. So pretty quickly after he disappears,
00:03:39
Speaker
ah Mom gets really sick, and she is taken to a place called Heisenbach. It's a suburb of Gothenburg. um Ultimately, she is admitted to Lillehagen's Psychiatric Hospital.
00:03:58
Speaker
So all of the kids are taken away by the state. And what we know is like foster care is where Clark and his sisters end up. Clark Olufsen does not like foster family world.
00:04:12
Speaker
So he starts committing crimes pretty early.
Sailing Adventures and Return to Crime
00:04:18
Speaker
By the time he's about 13 years old, he has figured out his mom's signature and her patterns, and he forges his way into sailor school. So he's going to learn how to sail boats.
00:04:36
Speaker
And ah according to his bio, by the time he's 14 years old, this kid, Clark Olofsson, has sailed all around the world.
00:04:48
Speaker
So by the time he's 15, has been... let go from this job, not in a negative way.
Reform School and Escape
00:04:55
Speaker
He just disembarks and he goes back home to where his mom is. Now his mom has taken this time and she's gotten her shit together. She's working again. They end up with,
00:05:11
Speaker
all of them living in mom's house. They're in an apartment um in Heisigen, which is in Gothenburg, which is close to where the psychiatric hospital was.
00:05:22
Speaker
And they're going to move a couple of times. um And eventually they're going to end up in a district called Bickupsgarten. it's just It's in Western Sweden.
00:05:37
Speaker
By the time he's 16 years old, Clark is a juvenile delinquent. And for the equivalent of some petty crimes, by 1963, remember he was born in 1947, by 1963, he is essentially institutionalized in a behavioral institution where they are in my opinion, it's like the equivalent of like reform school.
00:06:07
Speaker
They are trying to get Clark ready to be a civilized member of society and a civilized adult. But by 1965, when he's 18 and a half years old, he is not on board with being a civilized adult.
00:06:25
Speaker
And Clark Olofsson and two other boys end up escaping from this reform school. And they are found on the country estate of the Swedish prime minister.
00:06:39
Speaker
So at the time, this is Taga Erlander, and this estate is a huge manor house that's known as Harpsom.
Serious Crimes and Prison Time
00:06:48
Speaker
And they do it relatively young adults or relatively deep into teenage homes.
00:06:57
Speaker
years young boys do and they steal a bunch of stuff but what they're stealing here is grapes and cucumbers and tomatoes they're really raiding the greenhouse and the gardener of harps and catches them and they i was gonna say um I don't think it's like just normal for young adults or um I'm being a little tongue-in-cheek with that maybe yeah just I I was kind of pointing out that like In my opinion, these are not violent crimes.
00:07:30
Speaker
Well, no. And stealing grapes, cucumbers, and tomatoes from the Swedish Prime Minister's country how country estate greenhouse, yeah it's something, right? I mean, they're stealing food to eat I assume they're eating it. I guess they could possibly be selling it, but my guess is they're eating it.
00:07:46
Speaker
Oh, yeah. I think it's largely about kind of living in luxury and and and eating things. I think that you're right. I don't know that that would necessarily be luxurious, but maybe because they're just out on the property, right? Right. Like they didn't break into the house. I don't see any records of them having done that. I wouldn't put it past them. Sure. But ultimately, they're not they're not committing any kind of violent crime, I would say. Sure.
00:08:12
Speaker
Not based on what I've seen. But i I will say this. It doesn't stay that way for long. They're here. in late summer 1965 and it's alleged that before the end of the year clark assaults two police officers and iskul tuna and this is a huge deal um for two reasons one is it's a violent crime to assault police officers the second part of that is like he's now an adult and no matter where you are in the world
00:08:45
Speaker
a lot of times it's that that sort of mystical 18, meaning you're 18 or older and committing a crime, like punishments get more serious even in Sweden.
00:08:56
Speaker
In early 1966, February 4th, 1966, Clark gets a three-year prison sentence for this assault. So while this is his first...
00:09:08
Speaker
real prison sentence, keep in mind he's been institutionalized or, you know, juvenile version of incarcerated three times. So by the end of 1966, he makes his first prison escape.
00:09:25
Speaker
He's in prison that's over in Tidaholm, And he escapes. On the 29th of July, 1966, two police officers named Ragnar Sandhal and Leonard Matthias, they respond to a burglary at a bicycle shop in Nicopi. Ragnar Sandhal is shot and killed by a man named Gunnar Nogren.
00:09:49
Speaker
The other person with Gunnar was Clark Olufsen. So this happening in 1966 and in the latter half of the year, it makes Clark all of sudden kind of infamous.
00:10:07
Speaker
Now by August 16th in 1966, Gunnar Norgren is arrested and he's going to confess to having killed Ragnar Sandhol.
00:10:19
Speaker
ah So this is very serious. This is the murder of a police officer.
00:10:26
Speaker
The apartment that they're arrested in is in Kaltorp Gothenburg. It belongs to Clark's sister's boyfriend.
00:10:39
Speaker
And there's about to be a standoff here. But Gunnar Norgren is gonna give up because police end up making a pretty hostile entry to the apartment and they fire several shots through the door.
00:10:54
Speaker
Now Clark, for his part, he gets out before police get And he stays on the run at this point for two weeks. He is caught August 25th, 1966.
00:11:07
Speaker
And the way that he's caught is interesting. Police get a wiretap warrant, or the equivalent of that in Sweden. And they find out that Clark Olufsen, who's 19, and his 20-year-old girlfriend had set up a meeting.
00:11:27
Speaker
So two policemen kind of be blend in at this meeting. It's up a mountain hill, and they go dressed as essentially people who are going to be navigating the countryside.
00:11:41
Speaker
Now, they try to arrest him, but Clark Olufsen has a pistol. He pulls the gun and he fires two shots.
00:11:52
Speaker
One of those officers, Ulf Hogenberg, is hit in the shoulder. And Bertil Brostovic, he's the other officer, he is not injured during this. But this gets really serious.
00:12:04
Speaker
um I'm sorry, where did were they going to meet up at? They were meeting up in Grimardstenkogen, which is a special mountain hill up there where people would go and navigate it, like with compasses and maps, kind of like a hiking expedition.
00:12:20
Speaker
Right. Okay. I just want to make sure you could say that word. oh artistisan yeah. yeah There's a lot of interesting words on this one. um Because of this is assault on an officer, Clark Olufsen, he gets 10 years in prison.
00:12:36
Speaker
Now, the Swedish Court of Appeal at the time, they're going to downgrade his sentence by a couple of years, but he still is looking at eight years. Gunnar Norgren, for his part, ah he only gets 12 years in prison, even though he killed Ragnar Sandhal.
00:12:52
Speaker
But that, at the time, was the most severe punishment you could get in a Swedish court, even though one of these boys has shot an officer and the other boy has shot and killed an officer.
00:13:04
Speaker
That's pretty wild to think of. It was, well, it's another place for certain, right? But it was also another time. It was definitely another time. So on February 4th, 1969, Clark, all of a sudden, he's going to escape Kumla prison, which is where he's being held for this eight year sentence. And he is going to flee to the Canary Islands.
00:13:28
Speaker
And that to me was so fascinating. Like fleeing and going to the Canary Islands is like something like people do in a Robert Louis Stevenson book, you know? Right. Right.
00:13:43
Speaker
So he's met a girl. He just meets up with a girl. it was the same girl. is it the same 20-year-old? That's my understanding of it. He met up with a girl that he had been living in when he was arrested ah before, like when he was sentenced to the eight years. He'd been living in with her at the time? That's my understanding. Okay.
00:14:03
Speaker
So he then flies on to Frankfurt from the Canary Islands to meet this girl. And he's arrested by the German police after he enters West Germany, because this is a time when Germany is still West and East.
00:14:21
Speaker
ah And he's charged with having a fake passport. But instead, they escort him to the ferry on Travamunde. And two Swedish police officers are there to take him back.
00:14:35
Speaker
So he is taken across Sweden back to Pumla Prison. But two months before he is set to be released, guess what he does?
00:14:48
Speaker
He's escaped again. He does. He does. He's in a prison that is described as being an open institution. ah This is over in Bahuslan. It's a Lingatan prison. open-air institutions...
00:15:05
Speaker
are not as difficult to escape from if you're escape-minded. ah So he bails. Now, on February 2nd, 1973, he is arrested in a Swedish hotel. He's in the dining room.
00:15:21
Speaker
And police have received a tip from ah cleaning lady. Now, the tip that comes in is not that it's Clark Olofsson. It's that a gun has been found in his hotel room.
00:15:34
Speaker
But by the time he's arrested in February of 1973, he has been on the run for seven months. And at this point, it's discovered that he is robbed of bank.
00:15:49
Speaker
That's sort of like a penultimate point in this story because he's not back into the violent crimes of assaulting officers, but he is on to bank robberies.
00:16:03
Speaker
In May of 1973, he gets six years in prison. He is transported over to what's known Kalmar Prison, or the prison Kalmar.
00:16:14
Speaker
So this is a ah little city, probably, i i think it said it had 45,000 people in it, but it's situated along the Baltic Sea.
Dramatic Bank Robbery and Hostage Situation
00:16:25
Speaker
And that is where we are going to pick up the main part of our story and get to the the interesting reason we have to talk about this while we have the theme of hostage taking.
00:16:40
Speaker
So Clark Olufsen is just one part of this story.
00:16:48
Speaker
We have to tell you a little bit about a guy named John or Jan Eric Olsen. He is on leave from prison in August of 1973.
00:17:02
Speaker
But along the way, he has made friends with Clark Olufsen. And... While Olsen is incarcerated in what's known as Norka Pien, Jan-Erik Olsen does something fascinating.
00:17:17
Speaker
He goes into a bank in Normalsdorg, Stockholm, in Sweden, and he decides he's going to rob it. The Swedish police are notified. This is August 23, 1973. It's Kredytbanken, which is...
00:17:32
Speaker
it's in credit bank which is think they're out of business from the perspective of having merged. I don't think you would find anything in Sweden in credit banken today. But there's an officer at the scene, Ingmar Warpfeldt, and he ends up with injuries to his hand after Jan-Erik Olsen opens fire.
00:17:54
Speaker
He also, for some reason, orders another officer to sit in the chair and sing him a song. And now that he's caught, because this is ah this is a bank robbery that is not going well, Jan-Erik Olsen takes four bank employees hostage.
00:18:11
Speaker
So we're back to hostage taking.
00:18:15
Speaker
We have Birgitta Lundblatt, Elizabeth Oldgren, Kristen Inmark, and Sven Sofstrom. And of course, as hostage takings goes, there is a list of demands.
00:18:28
Speaker
Jan-Erik Altsen tells the Swedish police that he has a few things he wants. He wants a Ford Mustang. He wants bulletproof vests and helmets. He wants two guns and three million Swedish kronor.
00:18:44
Speaker
And he has one special request. And that special request is he wants Clark Olofsson. to be brought from where he is at in prison to him.
The Birth of Stockholm Syndrome
00:18:59
Speaker
So he wants him broken out of Norcombe prison by the police and brought to him. It's so weird, right? It is such a strange request that that is how we get here. This has a lot of things that people are going to find familiar in how this all goes down. And there is a very famous thing that comes out of this situation. We're going to talk about that kind of separately here in a second.
00:19:23
Speaker
So initially, Jan-Erik Olsen had been misidentified as a guy named Taj Hansen. He is a another escaped prisoner who was known for being someone who is really good at bank robberies.
00:19:39
Speaker
Now, as far as Jan-Erik Olsen, he's committed multiple armed robberies and some assaults and other acts of violence along the way. He starts doing this when he's 16 years old.
00:19:54
Speaker
where we end up picking up on his light is much, much later. So he's born in 1941. And according to the stories that we've been told, he has met Clark Olufsen at Kalmar, which is the, one of the other prisons.
00:20:12
Speaker
They became friends here. And Jan-Erik Olufsen was fascinated by Clark Olufsen's Sorted bank robbery past which I don't think i think it was something he made it a lot bigger than it was from what I can tell This becomes a thing that he's a little obsessed with now We're in August of 1973, but we have to talk a little bit about What he's done in 1973 in order for everybody to understand how weird this is so
00:20:50
Speaker
When Jan-Erik Olsen disappeared during a furlough, so a furlough is an opportunity to leave somewhere and go do a thing. The key being, you have to come back.
00:21:02
Speaker
Jan has disappeared. But January 7th of 1973, he tries to blow up the wall of the prison dynamite. From what we can tell, this is a rescue attempt for Clark Olson. So he is trying to get his friend out. He's trying to do a prison break.
00:21:25
Speaker
And as this bank robbery didn't work, that also didn't work. Jan-Erik Olson was sitting outside in a car during this time, But whatever they had done to get this dynamite to the wall, and like the accounts vary on who did what, but ultimately, i believe Jan Erich has coordinated with Clark. Clark has gotten this dynamite into the prison with Jan's help or vice versa.
00:21:50
Speaker
And while Jan-Erik is waiting outside for Clark to blow up the wangum with him, Clark decides he can't detonate the dynamite. I don't know if it's out of a safety concern or what.
00:22:01
Speaker
ah Like I said, there's a lot of media that you can go check out related to this. ah There's some different versions of why he might not have done that. But it's fascinating to me that he had tried to break his friend out of prison and it didn't go well.
00:22:15
Speaker
Same year, he tries to rob a bank and also doesn't go well. But the government, they give permission for Clark Olofsson to be brought into this bank.
00:22:29
Speaker
Can we just say how insane that is? They're bringing a prisoner to add to the ranks. of a bank robbery that has turned into a four-person hostage situation.
00:22:43
Speaker
Kristen Enmark, talking about this later, she is going to say that with Jan and Clark, or Jan, Eric, and Clark, she like felt safe with them in there.
00:22:54
Speaker
She felt like they were not going to hurt her, but she started to worry that the police were going to get desperate in trying to end this hostage situation.
00:23:05
Speaker
And she thought they might escalate it to the point that they use some kind of violent method that potentially could kill the hostages. So Clark and Jan-Erik have barricaded the inner main vault, and they have put the hostages in there, probably the safest place for them to be if there's any kind of a violent rescue attempt.
00:23:25
Speaker
So negotiators tell them that they're going to give them a car, but they can't take the hostages with them. Now we have a new Swedish Prime Minister at this time, not the same person that Clark had broken into the manor.
00:23:42
Speaker
We have Olof Palm. And Jan Erik ends up on the phone with the Swedish Prime Minister. And he says that he's going to kill these hostages.
00:23:53
Speaker
if they're not let go. He backs up this threat by having one of them in a stranglehold. So he's choking her and hangs up the phone as she begins to scream. The following day, Kristen Inmark, who we just talked about, she felt safe.
00:24:10
Speaker
She calls the prime minister back and says she is very displeased with how he's handling the situation and his attitude. And she wants him to tell the police that the robbers, meaning John, Eric, and Clark, and the hostages are getting out of here.
00:24:30
Speaker
By all accounts, ah Clark walks around singing during this time. It is noted that he was singing Roberta Flack's version of the song, Killing Me Softly.
00:24:44
Speaker
That is one of the weirdest details I have ever seen in any kind of bank robbery, let alone a hostage taking bank robbery. This is like a circus, right? It is a circus. It is a circus, like among circuses. Now, by the time we're seeing all this unfold, keep in mind, this started on August twenty third We're seeing this activity unfold August 24th, August 25th, and by August 26th, police have gone above the bank, and they and there's a picture of this bank that you can see online. um there's There's actually a picture of this moment.
00:25:27
Speaker
They took a photograph where Olison is sitting with the hostages. Have you seen this before? Yes. um This started showing up like almost immediately in the press, and you can find it today. what is...
00:25:46
Speaker
Described here is Jan-Erik realizes this is going on, and he manages to fire one of the guns up into this hole, not once, but twice.
00:26:00
Speaker
And at some point in here, he wounds one of the officers that is observing what is happening. And it gets to the point that Jan Erik is going to fire his weapon and he lets everyone know that if there's any kind of tear gas dumped in here or any other type of attempt to either rescue the hostages or assault himself and Clark, he is going to kill them.
00:26:33
Speaker
So the police pay no attention to this. And on August 28th, the police use tear gas And within an hour, Clark and Yon Eric surrender.
00:26:47
Speaker
According to all accounts, none of the hostages here sustain permanent injuries. But we get some really, really fascinating stuff out of this. Now, just to wrap up the hostage side of this before we get into all of that.
Hostages' Perspectives and Media Influence
00:27:05
Speaker
They're convicted. So even though they bring all of all of them to the scene, so Clark is brought to the scene, right? Right. They end up convicting him and extending his term for the, quote, robbery.
00:27:20
Speaker
Jan-Erik Olsen is convicted. Now, Clark claims that he didn't help Jan-Erik at all, that he was there to save the hostages and to keep the situation calm.
00:27:33
Speaker
And it didn't take very long for the Court of Appeals in Sweden to agree with him. So they actually vacate his conviction in his sentence, and he only ends up serving the remainder of his prior sentence. because and And the justification, which i kind of agree with, the justification is he's not involved here unless the police get him out of prison and bring him to the scene. one hundred percent. I mean, I don't even see how they were thinking anything else.
00:28:02
Speaker
Right. So Olsen is going to get 10 years in prison for this. And he is going to be the target of much hubristophilia. You know what hubristophilia is?
00:28:18
Speaker
Not right off the top of my head. It's women who like criminals. Oh, yeah. And a lot of women are going to send letters to Jan-Erik, and probably all of some too, but i I only have the Jan-Erik stuff documented. He is, at one point...
00:28:37
Speaker
ah going to get engaged to one of the women that write him. But one of the urban legends in this case is that it's actually a former hostage. He does end up with a 10-year prison sentence.
00:28:49
Speaker
And both of these guys, once they get out, they're alleged to committed further crimes, which we're going to talk about in just a second. But According to lore, the way that the Jan-Erik rumor urban legend gets started isn't actually based on anything Jan-Erik Olsen did. It's actually based on the fact that Clark Olsen, after he gets out, he meets Kristen Inmark out in the world multiple times, and their families become friends.
00:29:26
Speaker
At one point in time, Jan Erik is again on the run from the Swedish authorities. But by the... The point we pick up there, it's the 90s. He's alleged to have committed financial crimes.
00:29:41
Speaker
And in 2006, he actually turns himself into police. and They say, the statute of limitations has run out. There's nothing we can do. That's interesting, right? It is. It's fascinating. So another guy comes into play here, and he's important to all of our story.
00:29:58
Speaker
There's a Swedish psychiatrist who was born in September 1921 named Niles beha He's a criminologist. He was originally best known for his work on drug abuse. He is one of the top drug abuse researchers in Sweden, if not the world. But his view was that the drug abuse itself was a criminal matter and that if Sweden would just focus on giving high penalties,
00:30:23
Speaker
for drug abuse, he believed that they would see like a turn in the tide. He specifically believed that the only cure for drug addiction was to make drugs unavailable and completely socially unacceptable.
00:30:37
Speaker
What we know him for today, in spite of all of the things that he's done, is for coining the phrase Stockholm Syndrome. You ever heard the phrase Stockholm Syndrome before? Of course. So Stockholm Syndrome is a little bit of pseudoscience.
00:30:54
Speaker
It is a proposed idea, a theory, that maybe there's a disorder and... It's used to explain the concept that sometimes hostages develop a psychological bond with whoever is holding them captive.
00:31:15
Speaker
By all accounts, this comes about because of the focus on this 1973 bank robbery. Now, according to his theory, Niles believes that hanging out with Clark and Jan Ehrich essentially brainwashes the hostages.
00:31:37
Speaker
I have a different idea on this, but ultimately these people are held for six days. It's three women and a man. And when they're released, none of them would testify against Jan, Eric, or Clark in court.
00:31:51
Speaker
Instead, guess what the hostages in this situation did? They testified on their behalf. Not only that, they raised money for their defense attorneys in analyzing what had just happened. Because we're entering a time where television's a big deal. We've seen some major things happen over the last 15 years by 1973.
00:32:14
Speaker
And Niles goes on television during newscasts talking about the captives released, and he describes their reaction as a result of being brainwashed by their captors. Now, originally, he called it Normal Storg Syndrome, which is essentially the Normalm Square Syndrome. That's the location where the credit bank was located, where this attempted bank robbery took place.
00:32:43
Speaker
Outside of Sweden, it's become known as Stockholm Syndrome. Now, Frank Ochberg, who's a completely different psychiatrist who really was focused on trauma science, he has been the one to sort of take Niles's theory and try to use it to aid the management of hostage situation.
00:33:03
Speaker
But according to Kristen Inmark, who is one of the hostages in the room, her opinion was the police didn't know what they were doing. She says that the police put the hostages in a situation where they were basically having to negotiate for their lives and for the safety in release of the robbers.
00:33:25
Speaker
So in the process of all of that, The hostages looked at it, and they saw the police not only not knowing what they're doing, but acting at times out of desperation and doing some kind of irrational things.
00:33:39
Speaker
So the robber sitting with them, being calm, being cool, being collected, and trying to negotiate their way out of this situation that Jan-Erik Olsen had created, it made the hostages think the police are crazy, and these guys are just trying to wrap all of this up in a way that they don't get killed.
00:33:59
Speaker
Now, does that account for like the demands and wanting to get free?
Analyzing Stockholm Syndrome
00:34:04
Speaker
No, but like ultimately, they're doing what they set out to do and sort of being almost competent criminals or almost rational criminals. How would you characterize that?
00:34:18
Speaker
Very misunderstood. Yeah.
00:34:22
Speaker
I'm not really sure. i feel like from the victim's point of view, they were in a situation where they had empathy for the robber's position and their experience with them based on like how they were acting versus the the opposite of that that was coming from the police. I think that they just, in the spur of this, um I guess, shocking moment, they just misunderstood. it.
00:34:52
Speaker
not purposefully, but subconsciously they're going. It's sort of like the epic battle of of good and bad. The robbers were being nice to them, even though they were holding them, right? Yeah.
00:35:07
Speaker
The police were not being nice. They wanted the situation resolved, right? And so it's just that epic, never-ending, good, bad battle, and the brains just processed it wrong. I would be interested to hear what the guy had to say.
00:35:20
Speaker
From what we've seen earlier in this story, it does seem like the robbers have some charisma about them, right? That girls seem to like swoon over Yeah.
00:35:31
Speaker
And see, that would play into it as well, as far as how they're interpreting the situation. yeah Niles is brought in as part of the negotiation team. And one of the things that Kristen in Mark said, which we don't have the guy's perspective, but I really wish that we did.
00:35:48
Speaker
But one of the things that she said was she felt like what Niles was telling the police to do at the time, and Niles was sort of teetotaler. He's like, we have to shut this down. We don't negotiate with terrorists. We have to like take them out and rescue these people.
00:36:03
Speaker
But from Inmark's perspective, it felt more like they were... listening to Niles, meaning the police at the scene, and sort of endangering the hostages' lives by behaving aggressively and being sneaky and ultimately agitating the captors to the point that weapons were being used.
00:36:21
Speaker
And she also criticized the police for... The way she put it, and the way that it's translated, is that she felt like they were in the crossfire, right?
00:36:32
Speaker
If the police had gone to shoot at either of the hostage takers, which I think is sort of misnomer because we only have one real hostage taker. The other person is ultimately a hostage dropped off there by the police. And I would say he's also a hostage based on the situation, right?
00:36:52
Speaker
Did he have the opportunity to say no? don't think he had the opportunity to say no. I think he just... That's like one of the most bizarre parts of it. The thing that the hostages are failing to recognize is that the fact that they could be put in danger by any police action to begin with stems from the fact that they're being held hostage.
00:37:14
Speaker
Right, right. Well, so it gets to the point where one of these phone calls that she's having with the prime minister, where she's like trying to... negotiate like a peaceful resolution that seems like it's at an impasse because essentially johnn eric wants to go free and he doesn't want Clark to be taken either back into custody and the prime minister tells her that she needs to like steel herself for the idea that it is a very strong possibility they are all going to die
00:37:48
Speaker
and that she needs to get used to the concept. And in her mind, she's probably thinking, they're not going to kill Well, she she just couldn't believe he said that. like She's like an innocent person stuck in this situation, and like she was just like, I cannot believe that he did this to Oz. Based on the conversation she has at the time and the conversation she has later, she was ultimately more afraid of the police because she felt like they had bigger weapons, they had like a much...
00:38:15
Speaker
Weirder chip on their shoulder and that they seem to be a much larger, more direct threat to her life than either one of the two people that they were calling hostage takers when only one of them is really ah hostage taker.
00:38:30
Speaker
And even Jan-Erik, later on in interviews, he's going to say that like early on, he could have killed the hostages. He could have assaulted them. He could have like done things to them. But the longer he spent time with them...
00:38:45
Speaker
the more difficult it was for them to to see them as not human. He was having an emotional bond them. The quote that I've heard is, it was the hostages' fault. They did everything I told them to. If they hadn't, I might not be here now. Why didn't any of them attack me? They made it hard to kill them. They made us go on living together day after day like goats and all that filth.
00:39:07
Speaker
there was nothing to do but to maybe get to know each other. And we've heard this before from various killers who could not let the person that they were about to kill talk and humanize themselves, it would interrupt what they were doing. And that's an interesting facet any study of any killer. Right. There are killers who it doesn't bother. Those are worse, right? Yes. They have, i would say, different characteristics, more like sort of psychopathic type characteristics. Yeah. Because...
00:39:42
Speaker
It's human nature to but well, if you're normal, it's human nature to develop, especially like trauma bonds, right? Yeah. Because no matter how skewed it is, was all traumatic, right? Yes. And even the police were traumatized. I feel like you have to be traumatized to look at a situation and feel like the police and trying to save us were making things worse.
00:40:08
Speaker
Were you there because you wanted to be? Yeah, i so look, this this is what I think has happened with Stockholm Syndrome. It has four key components. The first thing is a hostage developing positive feelings towards a captor. The second thing is that there has to not have been a previous relationship between the hostage and the captor. They have to be strangers of upon meeting.
00:40:34
Speaker
The third thing is there has to be a refusal by hostages to cooperate with police and other government authorities. And the fourth thing is that a hostage's belief in the humanity of the captor ceasing to perceive them as a threat.
00:40:48
Speaker
And that's usually brought about by ah hostage holding some of the same values as the hostage taker. Those are the four components of Stockholm Syndrome. I think that the the neutralization of the threat, I think that that oftentimes is a coping mechanism for the hostage.
00:41:10
Speaker
I think so too, but I think we're looking at it all wrong. i don't think we can... i think Stockholm Syndrome is a pseudoscience, like I said at the beginning.
00:41:21
Speaker
um It's a pseudoscientific conclusion about something that ultimately makes no sense. Do you know why it makes no sense? Why? We're analyzing people who had no plan. They had no idea this was going to happen to them that day. We're literally taking a random thing that happens to them and we are trying to make sense of it rather than focusing on the fact that Stockholm syndrome is probably a real thing. It's just not those four key components.
00:41:50
Speaker
It is whether or not, in reverse, a hostage can humanize themselves in the eyes of the captor. So everything that's happening has to happen from the perspective of the hostage taker.
00:42:07
Speaker
He has to be the one. like We've heard about like women over the years who were caught by a serial predator. Sometimes the serial predators are getting older. But ultimately, they talk to that person.
00:42:20
Speaker
And when they talk to that person and treat them as a fellow person... a large number of them get away. Right. And that's going to be, well, depending on the situation, a lot of times that is, especially in an extended period of time, right? Right. That's going to be the pattern of behavior you see from a hostage because initially you're scared, but then as it progresses, it it's it's a survival mechanism. Yeah, it doesn't actually appear in the DSM.
00:42:50
Speaker
And that's where it gets pseudoscience-y. It is a survival mechanism. It's also a response to trauma. But it falls into the ideas of like trauma bonding or battered women's syndrome or internalized oppression, self-identification with ah like a person that's essentially an aggressor. But ultimately, Stockholm Syndrome, even though we know it today, is sort of bullshit. Yeah.
00:43:16
Speaker
it it Well, it ah I mean, there are aspects of it that are accurate. However, i i must say that it's weird we're covering this today. ah Obviously, we prerecord the holiday episodes. And I watched something last night that there was a witness or a person being interviewed about a case, a very popular case, i'm a very well-known true crime case. And they looked right in the camera.
00:43:44
Speaker
And they said, the question was, in the event that this person were to still be alive, this missing person, and they were doing this specific activity you're talking about here, why would they have not reached out? And ah kid you not, look straight in the camera and Stockholm syndrome.
00:44:01
Speaker
And I was like, yeah, so that's not a great, ah that wasn' it wasn't a valid answer. and it was almost filled with false hope. Yeah.
00:44:13
Speaker
Because it's it's not that, right? yeah It's not what was being stated there. And you know I laughed out loud at the answer, but like it's not really funny. There there is no explanation for like that particular situation that would involve you know Stockholm Syndrome.
Clark Olofsson's Life Post-Incident
00:44:33
Speaker
it's seen more so like in this case where it's not that the person doesn't want to get out of the situation they're in it's just like you know sometimes like oh i don't want to testify that against them right right and that would be like a very subtle version of stockholm syndrome where while you know you wanted to get out of the situation you didn't want to be harmed you also didn't want your captor to be harmed and you don't want to go further in continuing to punish them through the justice system or whatever. That's very mild Stockholm syndrome. When a lot of people who have had their will restrained by some random other person who decided to take them hostage, they would say, you know, fry him, right? right And so I do see elements of it to the extent that it's an actual thing. I mean, yes, of course it's
00:45:27
Speaker
There are elements of it that are actual things, but it's just to the extent people react differently to things, right? Right. Because you could go through that, and that if you realize that while this person is is holding you hostage, they're not an actual threat, right? Right. That doesn't mean you have Stockholm Syndrome. Right. It just means that you're going, yeah, this guy, he doesn't know what he's doing and he's holding everybody hostage. And it's unlikely unless he accidentally pulls the trigger, he's going to kill anybody. Right. yeah That's just a big inconvenience. So I think there's a lot of nuances sort of woven into there. but And I can't believe the timing on this. Because the case I was watching was, I mean, it was ah from 1998. Right. that would be like 27 years ago. 27 years. And I just happened to be watching this case and he the person looked right into the camera and said Stockholm Syndrome. And I'm like, yeah, I don't think so.
00:46:24
Speaker
But it's not like a it's not an excuse. I'd say it's the extent you're talking about where it's actually relevant is very, very rare. right and i think that you would have to kind of sift through and say, well, was this just like normal human empathy?
00:46:45
Speaker
Or was this really like the Stockholm Syndrome situation? And it would be a case-by-case basis that we were able to kind of differentiate. I think it's perfectly normal, especially people who've been victimized. It's perfectly normal for them to have the type of reaction that people who haven't been victimized the same way don't expect or don't understand, right? yeah I don't think that necessarily means they have this, you know...
00:47:15
Speaker
crazy lunacy condition of Stockholm syndrome. I also don't think it's a crazy lunacy syndrome, right? It's just, it's a it's a gauge on a victim's reaction to an, like you said, an unplanned, unexpected event.
00:47:32
Speaker
Yes. And I think personality type and upbringing, there's all sorts of things that play into how you're going to respond. None of those are ultimately Stockholm syndrome or any of the other things that you could throw in here. Like different people respond different ways because they're different.
00:47:48
Speaker
and And that's just how it is. it's It's really, it's a fascinating situation. Now, part of that, that the part of the reason we get to like see this in this case is like, you know, they were all let go. right Yeah.
00:48:02
Speaker
And in cases where like somebody's killed or it's more serious or like the criminals are more serious or whatever, like you don't see it as often or you don't get to hear about it because everybody died. Right. Yeah.
00:48:15
Speaker
Speaking of, it it wouldn't be right if we didn't at least like sum up the stories here. So in my opinion, we should talk about these guys one more time. ah Clark Olfson. So when he gets out,
00:48:28
Speaker
goes to the court of appeals. He basically says, look, I acted to protect these hostages because the police took me there.
00:48:40
Speaker
It was like I was thrown into the situation. And the way that he said it in court was that he felt like he had the silent consent of the police. But I think that he was actually saying, look, the cops told me, go in there.
00:48:56
Speaker
And if anything happens to these hostages, it's on you. So I think there was a threat, and I don't think it was necessarily, quote, the silent consent of the police. I think he was warned that like he had to do what he could to protect the people in there.
00:49:14
Speaker
So that debunks all the Stockholm Syndrome for me. Well, yeah, exactly. And to me, just, I feel like the fact that, you know, they would then turn around, like, here you go, you're going in, you got to protect everybody, which is, mean, that wouldn't happen here in the United States, right? They would not put another person in there to be a hostage. don't think no. And they would never, ever, ever trade prisoner for any reason, right? Yeah, yeah. And think about the havoc that could wreak, right? In terms of this bank robbery situation, yeah.
00:49:49
Speaker
In terms of like people thinking if they did something extreme enough that they could get somebody out of jail, right? Right. like That's not going to happen ever. I mean, i I can't even imagine anybody ever even thinking that, right? Right, right. It's a form, hostage taking is a form of terrorism. And, you know, ah most governments don't negotiate with terrorists. And I guess it just depends on like, you know, how far down the line your particular situation would get, but you're not going to be able to get anybody out of jail. Not here. I don't think so. Not here in the United States. i I feel like there's probably some cases where people have tried. yeah But it's just not going to happen. But it's amazing to me. Like, we don't know if he had a choice. And they actually brought him to the scene. Correct. Well, his situation, in my opinion, i would file that under, and this is how they get away with negotiating with terrorists when they do it, an act of diplomacy.
00:50:51
Speaker
So essentially, we trade hostages in the world all the time. But we do it from the perspective of getting something for giving something. And ultimately, he did feel like he should get something. And his attorneys, along with Clark Oleson, they sought a pardon from the Swedish government.
00:51:09
Speaker
But that application was rejected. So he also sought to have an opportunity while behind bars finishing a sentence to study the law. And they rejected that that application as well.
00:51:22
Speaker
And I felt like that was really sad because in Clark's case, this a kid who didn't have a chance. Oh, I agree. I mean, ultimately, he only has about two years left on his sentence.
00:51:34
Speaker
Clark Olufsen, for all the things that he does at this particular robbery hostage taking, he ends up escaping prison March 20th of 1975.
00:51:47
Speaker
ah In April that year, he goes into a Copenhagen bank. He has a gun in each hand. He fires a warning shot and he robs the bank. About a month later, ah he was in Marseille.
00:51:58
Speaker
He was on the French Riviera. He bought a sailboat. And for three months, they sailed around the Mediterranean. In August, they went through the Strait of gi but Gibraltar. They went out into the Atlantic and they sailed past the Azores. Because remember, that's what he was doing when he was a teenager.
00:52:15
Speaker
ah With the help of a couple of people, he goes down into the Caribbean and he makes the right course because he's just kind of out wandering around on this boat. And he he finally gets back to Ireland.
00:52:29
Speaker
And from there, he takes a couple of people with him and they go into Denmark and the Danish police figure out it's him. So he gets away, and he's away until January of 1976. The police catch up to him at an intersection in Brussels.
00:52:46
Speaker
He manages to have a shootout and get away. He gets on a train in Germany, and he ends up meeting 19-year-old there.
00:52:57
Speaker
Now, March 24th of 1976, he is back to his old tricks, and he robs the Handelsbank, which is another bank.
00:53:08
Speaker
ah He gets quite a bit of money. It was considered at the time the largest robbery in Swedish history. So he takes two people hostage during this time, and he ends up being arrested about nine hours after this robbery at a local hotel.
00:53:26
Speaker
They recover a piece of what he's stolen, but not all of It's only about a third of what he took. The rest was never found. So he gets eight years in prison.
00:53:38
Speaker
But three weeks after the verdict, in July of 1976, guess what he does? Of course he escaped. He escapes! He takes a truck, which is like a vendor truck, and he drives it through three prison gates at Norcoping Prison. And so with a number of fellow prisoners, they find a car outside, and this has obviously been well planned, and he gets away.
00:54:02
Speaker
On the 31st July 1976, he ends up being arrested in And August 12th, 1976, he gets married to a Belgian national named Merjik Jemmink in Cum La prison. And in 1979, while he's still in prison, he starts studying ah in a correspondence course, journalism.
Clark and Jan-Erik's Later Lives
00:54:25
Speaker
He does an internship at a newspaper. And during a leave in 1980, he gets into a fight with a fisherman. So he gets another sentence for two and a half years for assault, which interrupts his journalism degree. But he does eventually graduate 1983. Later in leaves prison.
00:54:45
Speaker
he leaves prison He meets up with his wife and they go to Belgium. It's not great for him for a while. In November of 1984, he ends up arrested in Belgium. He is alleged to have been smuggling 25 kilos of amphetamine into Sweden.
00:55:04
Speaker
And there's gang activity involved here. So he gets an aggravated felony drug offense. He sentenced to 10 years in prison. And he's going to do a lot of that sentence. But by 1991, he's released and he changes his name. He moves back to Belgium.
00:55:21
Speaker
He is arrested again in 96 for robbing a bank in Oslo up in Norway. but He's arrested outside of the bank because police thought that he was preparing to rob it.
00:55:32
Speaker
After 24 hours, they release him. And a few months later, he is rescued by a sea ah rescue helicopter, like a Coast Guard helicopter, after the little wooden boat he had taken out and smashed against the rocks.
00:55:49
Speaker
A few weeks after this, that was in November, so we're getting to kind of the end of 96 now, he's arrested for drunk driving in Stockholm. April 1998, he is arrested in Tenerife because that's over the Canary Islands for people wondering. He's got a...
00:56:08
Speaker
an Interpol notice out on them. He ends up being extradited over to Denmark and he has like this huge trial, this Danish trial. He gets 14 years in prison for smuggling more amphetamine into Denmark and they hand out like a pretty severe punishment.
00:56:26
Speaker
The 14 years is, I think it's the most you could get for smuggling at the time or it was the most they'd ever handed out for that. He gets out on parole May of 2005.
00:56:38
Speaker
Ultimately, he gets arrested again in 2008. The police had been having this big task force thing, and they were cracking down on what he was doing. A total of six people are arrested during that, and it turns out it's more amphetamine and a large amount of cannabis.
00:56:55
Speaker
He... Gets like a series of appeals that kind of go in his favor, but ultimately he's deported ah in 2009. He gets a lifetime deportation order.
00:57:06
Speaker
i think he got nine years for that, and he had to serve five years for something that he was kind of on probation or parole for. he
00:57:18
Speaker
essentially ah gets through the appeals process, but it's it's ruled that like everything is kind of kosher for him. He's incarcerated in Saltvik prison until 2012, and then he's moved over to Kamla prison. He puts an application in with the help of a lawyer for a new trial, and he starts kind of like trying to to get his life together. That application for the new trial is rejected in 2013.
00:57:49
Speaker
he had been applying for a transfer to Belgium, hoping that like his sentence would be shortened, and it gets delayed for multiple years because of the appeals and and other things that are going on But at the end of 2016,
00:58:05
Speaker
Swedish and Belgian representatives do one of those like weird accords, and they agree that he's going to be in prison for a pretty long time over in forced prison in Belgium. So he gets his wish to move to Belgium, but it's not...
00:58:22
Speaker
a great one. In February 2017, he turned 70 years old. he is granted new Swedish citizenship, meaning his deportation order that he had is no longer valid.
00:58:35
Speaker
But Belgian court, um he had been trying to figure out how to get out and be paroled. ah October 2017, they reject that. i He had agreed he would wear an ankle monitor,
00:58:49
Speaker
But they said no. Ultimately, he applies for relocation back into a Swedish prison. And Belgium grants it in November of 2017, just in time for Sweden to say, we don't want him.
00:59:01
Speaker
So they reject the move this time. And they negotiate what they're going to do with him because his sentence is coming to an end. He's getting very old. And ultimately, he is released in May of 2018.
00:59:16
Speaker
So he lands July 2018 in Gothenburg, Sweden again, but this time he's a free man. He's married, I think he has six kids total.
00:59:29
Speaker
But in 2025, after a period of pretty bad health from probably being in all these prisons for so long, at the age of 78, dies on June 24th in Arvika, Sweden.
00:59:44
Speaker
So I thought that was an interesting end to his story. I mean, he lived a long time. He lives to be 78 years old. Yeah, it is interesting. And so he's the police-made additional hostage in the case that developed the theory of Stockholm Syndrome.
01:00:02
Speaker
It is, yeah. And his cohort, Jan-Erik Olsen, who is the actual hostage taker, um He gets sentenced to 10 years in prison. He's released early in the 1980s, he has never been convicted of another crime.
01:00:21
Speaker
He actually lived in Thailand for 15 years with his wife and son. They ran a supermarket. Since then, he came back to Helsingborg, and he has been operating an automobile repair shop.
01:00:33
Speaker
He is currently retired. He is 84 years old. Yep. Do you think that Clark would have done all that stuff if they had granted the pardon and let him study the law?
01:00:46
Speaker
No. No, I don't. I don't think he would have at all. Yeah, I don't either. I think he would have had a completely different life. And I think that's like that sort of goes along with what we're saying about Stockholm Syndrome.
01:00:59
Speaker
You know, outside forces having... these massive implications on your life changes things for people. And I'm not saying what he did was right. Like, you know, he chose a life of crime.
01:01:12
Speaker
And for the most part, he stuck to that life of crime. Right. But I feel like he did, he he did make choices. However, you know, he was sent to reform school very young. Right. Yes.
01:01:25
Speaker
And i think that, that when I said earlier that he never had a chance, that's what I mean. yeah Like he was going to be stuck in a particular situation. And like, we see it all the time and people like me and you, we can say, well, like, so you know, stuff can be overcome, which is true.
01:01:47
Speaker
But in some cases, it's almost unreachable, right? And in this case, I don't know that he necessarily chose to be a criminal. i think that he was just... I think other choices were very sparse. yeah And I think that a lot of the decisions he made, he felt like there were no alternatives. um This was, you know, obviously a long time ago.
01:02:14
Speaker
But... I'm pretty sure even today, there's situations where people think like the only way they can get money is to go rob a bank, right? Or go commit a robbery, which is absolutely ridiculous. But for some people, that's their state of mind, right? yeah And I think that from a very early age, he was obviously a pretty smart guy.
01:02:35
Speaker
um he just didn't have the same opportunities or he couldn't imagine the opportunities. Yeah. to live a different life. And i would say that when he applied for the pardon and wanted to study the law, that could have been a pivotal moment for him. and you know, he was smart enough to want to do that. He probably would have done really well, but it's always interesting to look at all the outside factors that contribute to that. Right. but And we started from when he was very young, his father left for a pack of cigarettes, never came back. And then it was,
01:03:10
Speaker
A crumbling foundation from the beginning.
Final Thoughts on Stockholm Syndrome
01:03:14
Speaker
Oh, I 100% agree with that. and You know, it's interesting because i you know, I could devil's advocate, like him being a lawyer could have also been a terrible idea. It could have given him new ways to be a better criminal. Like he could have then been...
01:03:28
Speaker
Someone who took advantage of that position of trust and stole in different ways and, you know, used it to get members of the different drug cartels off of their sentences and keep the crime flowing or become a politician. and You know, there's like lots of things they could have done that, like, it would have been different, but you never know exactly what's going to happen with somebody in that scenario. Right.
01:03:54
Speaker
That's true. I just, I really feel like because he was, you know, trying to get a pardon along with wanting, like, permission to study the law or whatever. yeah I don't think his intentions were sinister. I mean, it is possible he could have gone through that and ended up, you know, even, like, better off as a criminal but worse off for society. Yeah. Oh yeah. I'm i'm sort of being tongue in cheek when I say that. I mean, ultimately i think it's so fascinating that he wanted to do it at all. And i I personally believe that we should like give people like that some level of like a chance in the world. um
01:04:32
Speaker
But I don't know. At the end of the day, i hope that like we learn from all of this and we learn that like Things like Sockham syndrome are not real. I just, I find it weird that somehow we decided to focus on the hostages in that situation and like, for some reason, give them this label.
01:04:55
Speaker
And it was so unbelievable. I think. Yeah. i like I like, I, I don't know. I think I could, I think the defense side of me gets a little too deep into this. I frequently see things where,
01:05:12
Speaker
people in positions of authority, including police make mistakes, but I also see things that I can't tell if it's a mistake or if they just are either incompetent or sort of corrupt in a different way.
01:05:25
Speaker
And like, I feel like giving them the explanation of Stockholm syndrome is an extension of putting them in a position where they aren't held accountable because people seeing police do horrible things or things that they don't understand, like on a rational level, not that they're looking at it going, I would do that differently. Like on a rational level, they're like, why are they doing that?
01:05:55
Speaker
Like, why are they, you know, putting us in the, the crossfire is what I picture. Um, like knowing that we could die and the whole reason they're here is to save us.
01:06:07
Speaker
Like I mean, i sort of see that, but, you know, anytime there's a void, right? So there was like a void of information as to why these hostages wouldn't want to testify against their captor, right? Right.
01:06:23
Speaker
It's got to be explained, right? Correct. And so once it's got to be explained, somebody's going to come up with an explanation. i mean, this is an explanation, right? Yes. ah It's not a great one, i don't think. Right.
01:06:36
Speaker
um I also don't feel like it's any sort of excuse. Like it's, it's just one of those things where like, it's almost like the experts just decided to write their theories as a form of fiction. Right. Yeah.
01:06:52
Speaker
And i don't know. i do think that there are bounds that it's odd for hostages to be critical of law enforcement. Right. That's it's weird. Yeah. Yeah, it definitely feels like it's one of those things that is sort of a contradiction.
01:07:13
Speaker
Well, right. And you would think, but at the end of the day, it all comes back to the person who's doing the wrong thing, right? That's what I think. I mean, I think, i think ultimately in that situation, you either have to focus on the police or focus on the hostage takers or potentially focus on both of them, not the hostages.
01:07:33
Speaker
The hostages are not the variable element in that situation that like, it's going to give you some kind of future behavioral solution. Sure. No, I agree with that 100%. It's just a really weird situation when you've got the hostages saying what they were saying. It's a very ah good illustration of the reason we have Stockholm Syndrome, right? The reason we have this is because when it came down to the end of it...
01:08:03
Speaker
everybody needed an explanation, yeah right And you're right. It does help the police avoid accountability if they were wrong in their actions. We we don't know, right? We don't know.
01:08:16
Speaker
we don't know who was right or who was wrong, except to the extent crimes are being committed and police officers were trying to save the hostages, right? yeah, ah there's a lot of variations of like how that could be interpreted.
01:08:33
Speaker
But the bottom line was the outcome was so unexpected that they were like, why is this happening? And that's what
Credits and Audience Call to Action
01:08:41
Speaker
we get from it. And that's what it's worth, right? Yeah.
01:08:45
Speaker
Yeah, i I just had to put this one in here because i guess I've thought of Stockholm Syndrome and really didn't know that. much about it. So in my opinion, like this was a really fascinating way to take a look at it. And we finally had this opportunity doing this hostage taking theme for the holidays where I could put this story in there. And at first I didn't include at first. I included it because one of the other stories that we were going to tell in researching that other story, I had sort of come to the conclusion that it it was an older story
01:09:23
Speaker
And I felt like it had sort of been whitewashed to make it look like one thing when it was actually another thing. And I was like, you know what, that's an opportunity. That's an opportunity for me to put this story out. And so I kind of brought it to you at the last minute, but I'm glad that you were able to relate to it because I feel like it's an important part of the hostage taking thing.
01:09:45
Speaker
i I don't know how many times I've heard ah somebody on anything I'm watching like say the word Stockholm Syndrome. I would say that it's probably happened previously. Right. However, i cannot ignore the fact that it specifically happened on what I was watching last night. Right. Oh, yeah, and then suddenly here we are today. Well, i didn't even know we were going to cover this today. And so, to me, that's crazy. But it was also, in context, what I saw and being said, like, it was sort of like, uh, yeah, they don't understand what that means.
01:10:25
Speaker
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01:10:36
Speaker
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01:12:41
Speaker
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01:12:59
Speaker
Thank you for joining us.