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Nathan Pearce | From Track Talent to World Trail Championships
4 Plays6 minutes ago
Nathan Pearce has moved fast in trail running, but the story starts long before the trails.
In this episode, Nathan takes us back to his junior years on the track and in cross country, and the early signs that he could race hard on unpredictable terrain.
We talk about the rough patch too. The pressure, the injuries, stepping away for a while, and what changed when he came back with a healthier mindset and a clearer relationship with racing.
We also zoom out on what separates domestic racing from World Champs racing, and why Australia needs more consistent head to head competition if we want athletes better prepared for the true international level.
And to finish, Nathan shares what is coming up next, with a stacked block that includes Buffalo, Skyrun, the Rootburn in New Zealand, a World Cup race in China, and UTA 22.
If you are into performance, racing craft, and the real conversations behind results, you will get a lot out of this one.
***Don’t forget, use code PEAK at Bix’s website for 20% off Bix products, exclusive to PPP listeners!***
Thanks for tuning in to Peak Pursuits! Connect with us on Instagram @peakpursuits.pod to share your thoughts, questions, and trail stories. Until next time, keep hitting the trails and chasing those peak pursuits!
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License code: K08PMQ3RATCE215R
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Transcript
Introduction to Nathan Pearce's Journey
00:00:15
Speaker
Hello and welcome to the Peak Pursuits podcast. My name is James Sieber and today back on the show with a long time favourite, he's probably one of the most featured guests we've had so far. We welcome back Nathan Pearce.
00:00:27
Speaker
I wanted to get Nathan because he has ah an interesting story that not that many runners in the space on the trails actually share of coming through the ranks, through the track development. A lot of the stories so far, people have come into running later in life or at least not specialised or focused on that from the start.
Injuries and Comeback
00:00:44
Speaker
it's also a lot to Nathan's story with injuries, pressure, that pursuit of going pro, stepping away from the sport for two years and then coming back with a vengeance and eventually making it as a sponsored athlete on the trails.
00:00:57
Speaker
That trail running breakthrough came pretty quickly as well. Along the way, there's pacing, fueling, race craft, growth chats, and And obviously we go deeper into the world champs, the expectations, the pressure, the perspective, and we get a little bit lost into the depth of the Australian trail running scene and have some fun thinking about the structure of the incentives and the future of the sport and where it might be heading. I thoroughly enjoyed this chat with Nathan. I really hope you do too. With that,
Early Influences and Transition to Running
00:01:23
Speaker
let's get to the show. Nathan, welcome back to the People's Suits podcast.
00:01:26
Speaker
Thanks for doing this. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I think, yeah, it's probably the first time I've jumped on, not just being or sort of a co-host or being part of the show, but yeah, being interviewed. So it should be yeah good episode.
00:01:40
Speaker
To get ready for this, I went back and listened to everything. And you're right, like you're on the the Targeting the Ticket, the World Champs with Fraser. think You were on the the show as a guest host once as well, pre that.
00:01:51
Speaker
yeah was Yeah, with UTMB, I was in Chamonix. So yeah, me and Sim were on the other sides of Cham and couldn't see each other because she was pretty unwell and a bit of a shame.
00:02:04
Speaker
It was striking me each time. It's like we heard a lot about your running, but didn't actually get to know much about you. And so especially between Tauera, Golden Trail, and I'm curious see what this season, I feel like this was a good time to dig in a bit more.
00:02:19
Speaker
Yeah, awesome. Yeah, now sure. Like, yeah, keen to sort of get in and and share what I've got planned ahead and what the future goals are, but also, yeah, how I got to where I am.
00:02:29
Speaker
Yeah. So when you were on, you referred yourself as a track and road runner and going back through your wild athletics, it's like back to 2012, 2013, going through your ah your Facebook and found some very young versions of you running.
00:02:44
Speaker
Was running always like your sport growing up? Yeah, it was funny. Like ah we had family friends that always did a little laughs. um They sort of got us down and funnily enough, I was a pretty shy kid.
00:02:59
Speaker
um Didn't really say anything until sort of i was four four years old. So I never really engaged in in too many curricular activities as a a young person. um It's almost like I'm making up with how much I talk now. but um Yeah, we we went down to the last one day and and my sisters, so I've got two older sisters, and they jumped in and they sort of took it on and I never really wanted to.
00:03:23
Speaker
um But then there was one day they had a community run. So anyone that wasn't a part of it could jump in and jumped into the race and
Youth Fit and Early Success
00:03:30
Speaker
it was I think it was about a 70-metre sprint or something.
00:03:34
Speaker
And I just... blew the um gasket off everyone and i was like, oh, I kind of enjoy this. Like, ah I like this winning feeling. um And then, yeah, sure enough, sort of got into little lats a bit more and but always um did Auskick on the other side as well. So,
00:03:52
Speaker
Football being, yeah, from Melbourne, it's is pretty much in the in your blood to sort of play, yeah, Auskick and then get into the junior ranks. And then, yeah, but I was always probably known as the the kid that could run.
00:04:07
Speaker
My ball skills and stuff weren't, um as good. But when you're a young'un, if you can run and run the ball far, it takes you takes you distances. So, yeah, I was always sort of bouncing between the two and then picked up soccer as well when I was sort of under 12s, under 13s. Yeah, soccer sort of was so probably my main thing for three years, even though i was still doing a little last on the back end and competing at state levels and stuff like that. But under 15s, I sort of came to the point where,
00:04:38
Speaker
I'm like, I think I've had enough of the team element. I want to sort of really take onus and and go all on like just sort of myself and and really sort of um pursue something that I'm also, yeah, showing good signs that I'm good at. But I kind of was like, nah, like, I think this is, yeah, ah I kind of had had enough of the whole political side of things of um selections and all these sort of things and then getting changed positions. So, yeah, sort of picked up running properly and fully sort of, yeah, when I was about.
00:05:17
Speaker
14, 15 and I actually yeah picked up a squad um called Youth Fit. So Michael and Cam who sort of originally ran that, like it's funny thinking about it, they were only sort of 20 when they were running this um sort of junior run squad and now we're looking at 16 years down the track and me and Michael actually do have, we coach together through Run Rabbit. So sort of how, how um all the things sort of turn around and and work together and how the universe works. But um yeah, sort of jumped in with them and, Did a bit more specific training. Like hadn't really done training. i My dad was always a pretty good runner, so we'd run down to the footy oval and back and and that was all.
00:06:02
Speaker
So, yeah, to actually do sessions, um yeah, it was... was cool and it it progressed my running pretty quickly, as you could imagine. Like if if I was already at a state level without any sort of work um and all of a sudden I sort of within a year, I sort of grew out of that group um and their old group.
00:06:25
Speaker
with Keith Fernley who's based out of the West, Fernley Runners. They had a ah pretty solid group with the likes of Luke Matthews, Jack Rayner, which I'm sure most of the listeners now would know after his half marathon the other week. But yeah, it was ah it was a fitting group to go join and and being able to train with Jack who at the time was we were in the same sort of division and he he would always wipe the floor of me. um ah So, yeah, to jump in there and then within probably a year with being with Keith, ah I won a state
Cross-Country and International Opportunities
00:06:59
Speaker
championship. and i was like, oh, how good is this? Like I'd always made it to states, but I was always like 12th, 13th, 14th. Like I was just making up the numbers. And then within, yeah, within a span of 18 months, I was –
00:07:12
Speaker
the one to beat within Victoria and then from there Nationals came about and started trying to make Nationals my first Nationals with Staplechase and got the qualifier and went over to yeah went up to Sydney but the state champs was two or three weeks before and I ran the 800 meter qualifier as well so um yeah made it in 2012 was my first Nationals and came fourth in the steeple was like what what's going on here? um So I was like, okay, you like, so I showed, I was always pretty quick. So eight and 15s was what I was suited. But yeah, doing that steeple and showing some promise in that more strength sort of running. um Yeah, it,
00:07:59
Speaker
looking down um the future path, it probably showed some signs that, hey, yeah pure speed and and track running probably wasn't um exactly what I was built for. So, yeah, from there I sort of cross-country, track, um like some some more highlights here, like a couple of 5,000-meter national champs and we're, yeah, versing the likes of Morgan McDonald, Jack Rayner as well. And, like, i it was it was a good time. Like, it was always fun um to be able to get to nationals, compete against the same guys and um and just sort of build that camaraderie against each other and and and especially in cross-country as well. Like, down in Victoria, we've got a pretty good team
00:08:44
Speaker
club base and it was always fun competing for yeah western athletics and and chasing medals and those sort of things so like it was a good sort of upbringing and um yeah and to be now like looking back a couple of my memories has popped up the other day as well on facebook and like there's photos of me running in front of yes Stuart McSwain and Jack and and all these other guys and and I was actually competing against them um at that time and in 2014 in at National Cross Country once again another fourth place i was a bit shattered um in that race funnily enough um Geordie Beamish or George Beamish was in it so he came over from New Zealand and about 500 metres to go, he tapped me on the arse, he goes, come on, come on. um So, yeah, future future world champion um as well in that.
00:09:34
Speaker
So, yeah, cross-country sort of started to show that I was probably more tailored to that, sort of just the element of not chasing a time, just getting out there and having fun and and racing.
Reevaluating Motivation and Joy in Running
00:09:48
Speaker
um And then, sure enough, 2015 rolled around and, yeah,
00:09:53
Speaker
I'd come straight off an injury as well. So I'd been off for about six weeks with a a stress reaction, I think. And was back probably running for about four to five weeks and went to World Cross Trails and started 2015. And,
00:10:07
Speaker
um I was like, hey, I've got nothing to lose here. Let's see how we go. And ended up coming fifth and qualified for world champs in cross country. So i was like, just finished high school. i was like, okay, this is this is the start of ah a professional running yeah career. So, be yeah, like going there and and just seeing that side of the sport was just eye-opening. Yeah.
00:10:35
Speaker
being there as a young 18 year old. And ah do I have not probably regrets, but I think at that time athletics and and sort of how it was governed was probably not as, um fruitful as what it is now, like with how much, um, backing they put in it and and and how much time they'd sort of nurtured the juniors. So we kind of got rushed over, over to China and we were there for about five or six days. And, um,
00:11:04
Speaker
I didn't have the best race. I probably have had the worst result ever, but um so did all of us junior boys. like Morgan McDonald was the only one that really had a ah shiner that day. I think he was 32nd or something like that. so But yeah, like the likes in that race, like Jimmy Grecia, Connor Mance, yeah, but know um Joshua Chepter guy. Like how could I forget? but The fact that I've been able to say, hey, I've raced these guys back before they were um household names sort of thing in the sport. So, yeah, it's pretty cool to reflect back on. and And then, yeah, like after that, I probably would say I had the roughest year of my life probably. Like coming back from that, you you go to such a high peak of,
00:11:54
Speaker
this like I'm going worldwide with this sort of thing, like thinking, um yeah, like sponsors and and all these sort of things and come back and,
00:12:06
Speaker
I wasn't working. ive I never was good at school. So uni wasn't really my thing either. So I came back and I just was, I was training well, wasn't racing well.
00:12:17
Speaker
Mentally, I was just out of it. I was just tapped out. And and then sure enough, end of 2015, got another injury. And it was probably a turning point where I was kind of like, okay, like what am I doing this for the wrong reason? um Yeah, like really like what,
00:12:34
Speaker
why why did I get into running? Why is this a passion? And what do I want to get out of it as well? um And at the time you start to see, yeah, like your mates as well starting to get these contracts and, and,
00:12:51
Speaker
when you're younger, you think time, it has to happen now or it will never happen. Like you you never think, oh, yeah, i've got I've got many years up my sleeve. you You kind of want it now. So sort of, yeah, got back from this injury, got back running, probably – was training a little bit more relaxed, not overdoing it, didn't really care too much if I had a bad day as you always do and and got back into some, yeah, track stuff, 15s, 3Ks. We did a a trip over to New Zealand, so there was select few of us Aussies that went over there and did their circuit over there. And that was another like another good experience. Yeah.
00:13:31
Speaker
racing like nick willis um in his prime like almost his prime like um being in a race where yeah sub four like there three sub four um runners in a mile race ran my 3k pb over there at the time which was 821 um And like, yeah, I came back from that trip going, okay, yeah, I think I think i know what I need to do now to sort of progress. And and then sure enough, my first senior um track state champs came second in the 1500. And some of the names in that, like a couple of Olympians, Andy Buchanan was in there and and got their scalp. So I'll hold that to them forever and ever. but If you should. Yeah.
00:14:15
Speaker
Yeah. After that race, i was kind of like, okay, yeah, I think I'm on track. And then all of a sudden injury. And then once again, starting to have those thoughts, got into, started working, got a girlfriend at the time, started like just living a young life, started to go to festivals, go to go out, socialize and those sort of things. And never came back from that injury for two years. So two years, I just completely from probably,
00:14:46
Speaker
mid-2016 to about ah first quarter of 2018. I just pretty much, I never left that social circle, but I had stop running.
00:14:57
Speaker
Never really looked to at a pair of shoes to go put it on. Didn't, yeah, nothing. And then um oh yeah i'm gonna interrupt you because so i want to touch you a few things from the past before i feel like that's ah a very like pivotal moment that we can anchor it around um going back to when you moved into the training group you say you were in a training group with the likes of jack right now at that point yeah how much do you value like the growth that you had and the rate that you had by being surrounded by those guys and specifically people that are better than you Oh, 100%. Like it always will push you to get probably like 11 out of 10 of what you could probably do. The only other downside to that is
00:15:41
Speaker
um probably trying to achieve someone else's goals yeah as well. um so But ultimately, looking back at it, is I wouldn't change a thing because purely because them pushing me to where I got to is how I got to that.
00:16:03
Speaker
um I wouldn't have been able to do that by myself or any other training group for that matter, realistically, like thinking about it. So... um Yeah, being able to train and at the time.
00:16:15
Speaker
ah Like me, Jack and Luke never knew that, yeah, Luke would go on and win a bronze medal at the Comm Games or Jack to be a record holder and and whatnot. And he also won a gold medal at a Comm Games half as well. So we never knew that. And at the time, like, yeah, they were breaking school records, state records and and always biding for like the world junior champs and those hard qualifiers. But yeah, I don't know. Like my mind...
00:16:43
Speaker
Confidence level was I'm at that level, but I ultimately think I just never was. um Could I have got there if I had it kept running through? Possibly.
00:16:54
Speaker
We'll never know. But um I just don't think I just had that extra little bit. So from numerous of injuries through that junior path,
00:17:05
Speaker
was that purely because I was just trying to chase them that little bit too much, and probably. But no, like I'll never look back, like, yeah, regret um those years. and And Keith, like my coach at that time, like ah there's so many things that I still, just little pointers, like yeah around technique, um around training. Like there's still sessions that I do that we did back then. Yeah.
00:17:33
Speaker
And so, and I so i actually had um back before we had Strava and all these things, I actually just used to journal a lot of my training sessions, how I went and all those sort of things as well. So I've actually had ah like had a look over those over the past couple of years and and go, oh, okay. Yep. I'm like, yeah. why did I peak in this race? And I look back and and just pick up those little pointers as well. Like, I think in future, now that we've got tech that saves all this data, I think that will forever be easier that you can kind of go, why was I good on this day? And why was I bad on this day? And you can kind of...
00:18:12
Speaker
break it down to either sleep or something like that so um but yeah no like i i cherish those those moments and it is funny it's like um being how like good they got i still i still just look at them as my training partner sort of thing right like it's it's yeah there's no
Renewed Mindset and Enjoyment
00:18:31
Speaker
um stardom to it or anything like that but no definitely yeah it was it was awesome and yeah like I ran 156, it still is my PB at at the age of 16 through those times. So like I yeah showed that yeah like I still had pretty um pretty quick legs back then. but um yeah So that's that sort of was yeah my junior sort of block of how I got into running and and where I went to with that sort of career.
00:19:02
Speaker
I've got to imagine being surrounded by those guys. There's a lot of conversations about wanting to go pro and and making it. And like said, whenever, if you're in that sort of training environment and you you are just like one step below, I had to imagine that you were always trying to train yourself up to them or as hard as them.
00:19:19
Speaker
And yeah, creating an image in your head like I can be or I am equivalent to those guys. But letting go like i a did you have those ambitions? Did you think you were on that professional path? feel like ya you you you said that you you did. Letting go of those ambitions, at least back in 2016, 2018, obviously in-house with with On, like do you remember going through that process and how that felt?
00:19:42
Speaker
Yeah, like... somewhat like I don't think like I there was no at no point was there like withdrawal of being like oh that could be me or any jealousy or anything like that like and Through like 2013 and 2014, I was actually fortunate enough to be on a program with Nike at the time where I did get seated a lot of product and and stuff like that. So I kind already had seen um some light of that sort of thing. But I think ultimately i'd lost the enjoyment of running. And that was probably the bigger picture was how did someone that –
00:20:22
Speaker
And the fact that I probably stayed in those social circles and still rocked up to watch races and certain things while I wasn't running, like, just shows that how much how how much passion I had for it.
00:20:34
Speaker
um But, yeah, I think there was that enjoyment of, I think, and it's probably a big life lesson for myself, but also for most other people is just really...
00:20:48
Speaker
look back at what, like how you got into it and why you did. And then when did you enjoy that thing the most, right? Like it's like, when was it at the point where you're like, was it the actual racing?
00:21:04
Speaker
For me, sometimes it wasn't. Like ah I would always, like there were certain races, like i remember 2013 Perth Nationals 800, perth nationals eight hundred I was one of the favorites. Like I could have meddled in that race, but mentally i was just nervous. i didn't want to speak to anyone that whole day. I got real clammed up and then the race doesn't pan out. And i when I was young, had a temper.
00:21:29
Speaker
And like i'd just I'd go off and not talk to anyone for that whole night. And it's like, well, how's that enjoyable? Like looking back at that, I'm like any like, why was that something that I was trying to chase for? So I think, yeah, now looking back at it is like,
00:21:46
Speaker
I probably had the wrong intentions for myself to what I wanted to get out of it um as well. So, yeah, and that's sort of you touched on where I'm at at the moment and we'll get to it. And like, yeah, I think that's where a lot of my learning um to get back into running in 2018 sort of came from was, hey, let's just enjoy this thing.
00:22:08
Speaker
Like, why am I? um worrying about chasing 0.5 of a second in in this race or um really putting so much pressure on myself to compete when, if I looked back at it, what was my best probably junior race result was that... um ah the qualifier for world cross country champ.
00:22:34
Speaker
And why did I go well there? Cause I was five weeks five weeks back from um an injury and I didn't really have any intention or goals to run well. I just kind of went out there and went, hell, let's see how we go.
00:22:48
Speaker
um And I think, yeah, that that's sort of that training where it's kind of like you always probably perform best when you're not even thinking about performing. Yeah. It's a fascinating one. Like each person having their optimal state of like, this is the mindset I need to come in with. This is the approach need to have with it. And finding out like, okay, this is, this is how I got my best days. Like reflecting back on it. Do you feel like you've brought that forward now? Do do you still, ah do you try to approach races that way?
00:23:17
Speaker
hundred percent. um Like, well, yeah, as I said, we'll touch on sort of more specifics in, later on but like yeah 100% like i I look at even my training nowadays like I would always sweat having to try and be like okay I've got 8xK tonight like I need to be last week I was running don't know 3 minute pace I have to do that again Whereas now I just kind of like, who cares? Like three, 305, 255. It's all the same thing, really. Like, OK, would it be different if I was trying to chase a 5000 meter time?
00:23:55
Speaker
Probably because you're just you're looking at those incremental differences. But ultimately, no, it's also it's not because if you've run 255 in your block,
00:24:07
Speaker
Well, that's that's your optimal anyway. So if one day you go out and that effort is 305, it's not telling you that oh now that's 305 what I'm doing.
00:24:19
Speaker
It's just saying on that day, depending on your work that day, if you spent more time on your legs, your nutrition as well, like did you get have lunch at that particular time? Did you get enough hydration in so many elements?
00:24:34
Speaker
conditions the weather like it could be could have been five degrees hotter um but knowing okay that's my benchmark but ultimately on the day as long as i'm relaxed and comfortable and enjoying it and have a smile on my face i'm probably going to perform well like it's not always going to land properly but you always sort of if you're out there enjoying it you're going to have nine times out of 10 a good day, right? Like, um and you're also just going to be like, you're going to have the right intentions on on being on that start line as well.
00:25:09
Speaker
So yeah, 100% I've taken that on and and that's how I've progressed to where I am at the moment as well. um I think not taking myself serious.
00:25:21
Speaker
That was one thing like being like, okay, I've i've had this result before when I was a young, like in juniors. I now need like that. Everyone's looking at me like and this is another thing like the perce perspective of someone else on you as a junior is like everything you like.
00:25:40
Speaker
Everyone's watching me. Everyone's going off. Nate had a bad race today or what's happening with Nate or when you grow up, you realize no one cares.
00:25:51
Speaker
No one cares if you had a bad day. They only really care if you do have a good day, but they also don't not care when you do have a bad day. It's like, the essentially, it's the same feeling across the board. They're like, look at Nate.
00:26:06
Speaker
He's out there just doing what he wants to do. Like he's having fun. He's out there exploring. And I think when you change that mindset of, you you getting getting to that start line or even just getting out the door to go for a run you're doing better than not doing it so you've you've already broken that barrier of um yeah just achieving what you want to be doing um and hey like you can only perform how you perform but um yeah like if you can just if you don't enjoy what you're doing then um it's just a bad reflection yeah exactly what's the point yeah
00:26:43
Speaker
Like what you've said that I hope people listening can actually appreciate that because you can't control the outcome on the day. Like what result you get, there's so many factors that can throw that out. Like you said, if youre even in in training, long down your feet, the conditions, who you're with, you just feel off for whatever reason.
00:27:00
Speaker
If you can actually enjoy what you doing, like it's that's the whole point of it. like even yeah I'm guessing even if you are a full-time professional, and I haven't been in that position you're you're not in that position it's still if you didn't enjoy what you're doing you're not going to be able to get up and get out every single day and you're just never going to get the results like said you're going to be going in with the wrong mindset and like I've seen it I've seen it with some of my mates right like and like I had a conversation late last year with Stewie um and he's now with the OAC group and like
00:27:33
Speaker
He'd been with MTC since his he was a junior. So he's been there for 12-plus years or longer, right? um And so that's a big change. But I spoke to him, like, there's things that – you lose sight on because if your perspective is what you think people expect of you, then your actual idea of your expectation of yourself changes and and goes out the window. So you kind of become lost.
00:28:04
Speaker
And if you get lost as a professional in anything, it's the same in your workplace. It's the same as um I'm sure it's the same in parenting and all these other things. If you get lost and and lose that flair to creativity or thinking outside of the box or um digging yourself out of that hole, well, yeah, it's just it's going to be an endless cycle. So, yeah, thinking to tarawara.
00:28:28
Speaker
everyone was getting ready for that race to be quick fast and non non-technical all of a sudden the skies open up the day before humidity goes through the roof um terrain now becomes almost an ice rink so you can't control those variables so as like in that race like i there's a point where you kind of like i don't feel like I should, and you get frustrated in a moment, there's a moment where you kind of go, these guys are getting away from me. What what can I do?
00:29:03
Speaker
What can I do to to change this outcome? And ultimately for me is like, well, okay, we're going through a bad patch. Let's just don't ah like don't go crazy. Let's think about this moment now and let's just get through it. And then hopefully ah the other side will will be able to get there.
00:29:23
Speaker
But then also I'm just kind of like, look where you're running. Look at these conditions. Like how funny is this? Like that a week, three days ago, you thought, oh, I'm going to be ripping through here. And now all of a sudden you're having to like make sure you're not going to slip every step. and You've got to find the fun um in anything, and especially in trail running. It's like that's all it is.
00:29:45
Speaker
All it is is fun. Like no professional trail run. No... no professional runner, I reckon, could tell you that their favorite run was ever a race.
00:29:57
Speaker
hu I reckon. like That's right, yeah. I reckon you're right. I reckon deep down, most people's favorite run is either ah a Sunday long run with a big group of people or the most scenic run they've ever gone on and there was no worry about I need to run up this hill at this pace or there's no thought of that. Most people's favorite thing is just like being out there and having fun and no thought. So I think, yeah, like that's that's the big picture. And for most people that are listening to this podcast aren't necessarily competing at this higher level. So if if you do put a lot of pressure on yourself to get through these races, well, you've done all the work on the day.
00:30:43
Speaker
just Just let your body do that and let your mind free and just go have fun. And I think that's, yeah, it as as we said, like that's something that I've just sort of taken on um in my future, like, yeah, recent years. I was thinking once you said about your favorite.
00:31:00
Speaker
running memory and everything that popped up was long run adventures there wasn't a single race that I'd done like there's races in cool places races where you've gone well but none of them quite stack up to and for me normally socially with a few people doing a cool thing in a cool place and that's what you remember yeah 100% because it embeds a core memory.
00:31:23
Speaker
results Results stay with you forever, but it's results there on paper. Whereas a long run with friends or a solo run in a place that you've dreamt about running forever and ever,
00:31:37
Speaker
stays in your mind and you kind of like it's something that you always just hold on to um in a way so and mind you like i've had some pretty cool races to think and to have those memories and like worlds last year was one of those core memories like ah it it was yeah an epic epic race but yeah still there's there's other runs in that trip that i still go that was cool yeah yeah i think just tying off as well as somebody said just said a while ago that like we think people are looking at us and going through our strava and paying deep attention to our instagram but the reality is is all of our lives are really busy and that no one cares once they've seen it liked it or whatever gone past it's all forgotten it's all in our head Exactly. It's all superficial. So in a way, and now with social media and stuff like that, like I and understand, like I, I, I'm pretty, like, I do put a lot of content out there, but I understand no one really cares about it.
00:32:38
Speaker
I do. I care about it. And my mom does as well. Right. And then, but I like putting cool shit. It's like cool. Sorry. That's fine. Cool stuff out there. But, um,
00:32:50
Speaker
And like, I like sharing those experiences so then other people can then also probably go, that's cool. I want to go do that as well.
Training and Competitive Spirit
00:32:59
Speaker
Because that's the other other side of things. I've done all these cool runs, a lot of them solo. I'm like, oh, I'd love to be able to share certain experiences with people. And if someone else gone on that run, i can then go, oh, cool. Yeah, like how cool is how cool is that element and all these sort of things as well. So yeah. yeah um but yeah like that's that's sort of like my mindset with with trail running at the moment it's just kind of like yeah just get out there enjoy it and and and luckily yeah like i'm putting in the work but in the
00:33:32
Speaker
behind the scenes to to get me on podiums and and finish well. So, but yeah. Yeah, seems to be working working pretty well. So you have that time off the sport.
00:33:43
Speaker
Coming back, like you said, you you never left from a social circle perspective, but coming back into training, especially after to two years off, what was the catalyst at that point? Well, so yeah, like Michael, who I now coach with, my original coach, I'm pretty sure They got me out for a run. They got me out for a 10-kilometer run. and i was like, fine, I'll do it, whatever.
00:34:04
Speaker
And he goes, Asvic 10K, the road 10K event for XCR was coming up in August, whatever month it was. And he goes, I bet you you won't be able to beat me.
00:34:17
Speaker
And something in my mind just flicked and I went, challenge? Yeah, I like a challenge. So then sure enough, got back into it. Like the the road back wasn't just like I just picked up the the flats and off I went. i I had to do like a lot of like jog walk program.
00:34:37
Speaker
Yeah. Like, because in my brain, i still was 1435k guy. Yeah. Like, because I had not picked up the shoes in that time. I kind of was like, oh, well, I can go do this. Like, I know I can.
00:34:52
Speaker
But to go run five-minute pace for 5k was a struggle. Yeah. um luckily for me i'm a small framed guy so i didn't there was no worry about that but it also just um conditioning muscles back into taking on the load and and everything like that so it took me a little while but um sure enough got to that start line on that 10k and and knocked him off i think i ran I think I ran 32.30. So it didn't take me too long to sharpen back up into some sort of form. um
00:35:26
Speaker
But, yeah, got got to that start line and it just kick-started um a little bit of a fire in my my stomach. and and And I think... I enjoyed it. I was just having fun. Like there was no there was no worry about um chasing anything. And then that year went back up to Falls Creek, went and jumped in the the training camp up there and and just missed those elements of the banter. But then also just being able to go out there and and explore and um and see, have these experiences as well. um
00:36:02
Speaker
And then, yeah, came back 2019.
00:36:06
Speaker
we're we're going back in the, I don't know exactly, but yeah, like I think I just got back into steady, um consistent running and everything like that. and And then COVID obviously came about and that was sort of a two years of just kind of like, yeah, just jumping in races when they were on and and so forth. And and then 22,
00:36:26
Speaker
um Cross-country. Had a ripping cross-country season. Came seventh year in the um state champs and then qualified for the Vic team for nationals and and went there. And a good friend and still my mentor, Steve Brennan,
00:36:44
Speaker
just reached out and went, mate, have a look at World Mountain Champs. It's in Thailand this year. it was supposed to be last year, but it's on this year in in November.
Trail Running Breakthrough
00:36:53
Speaker
And, um hey, like looking at cross country, like because World Athletics had taken it on by then, so AA Athletics Australia or Australian Athletics were part of the selection board. He goes, ah like your cross country season could probably qualify. And i was like, hey,
00:37:12
Speaker
It seems fun. see like i know wear And this is probably where we go mountain running and trail running to me for for a long period of time. was That was where the sort of the dorkier people were. And and it was it was never something that I would even had considered.
00:37:32
Speaker
out I had friends that did it, Will Atkinson and and Leo, and I knew these people. were also doing a little bit of both. Like I knew Will and and Leo and stuff from the track background, but I also knew they did mountain stuff. and And so it was always something. And as soon as he was like, yeah, it's world athletics now, i was like, okay, it's got some – in my mind, I'm like, it's got some – reputable yeah it's got some car behind it yeah exactly so i was like hey i'll throw my hat in the ring and and sure enough um after yeah the selections were announced ah ah i was on the team i was like cool i probably should uh pick up a pair of trail shoes and and actually go have a race um and yeah roller coaster was the the option in in 22 and um in october and rocked up naive as anything right like it's like rent rolling up to a park run in a random country town you like i know i'm a pretty good runner i don't think anyone here would probably be as good a runner um and like sure enough you could you could have anyone rock up to that that park run at any given time so i i didn't know any names in trail running at all um
00:38:53
Speaker
rocked up and just, yeah, just I ran it like a long run, like a hard long run. There was no mindset of me being like, this is a race. I just went, I'm just going to run this hard and see what happens. And sure enough, came across the line and had won.
00:39:10
Speaker
Set course record. Set a course record. and And yeah, like Joe Dorff and um Blake Hose was in that race as well. and And Charlie Hamilton, funnily enough, was commentating and emceeing. And, He interviewed me and just his reaction was kind of like,
00:39:27
Speaker
kind of who are you in a way like it was almost like who's this guy that's just rolled up and and and ran this like i think it was a six minute or seven minute course record and and i was just like oh yeah like i i've ah been selected for worlds and thought i'd give list ah this this race a go to chew me up and and get me into it and and mind you like it it wasn't like i just rolled up to that race and hadn't been doing work in the background like steve had steve had got me on on certain programs like um boat and spur which is out of king lake doing some like a lot of um classic sort of sessions like a turn and burn so tempo up and then just turn and and run down as fast as you can and that's still where i've got my 3k pb which is 748 or something like that um but
00:40:19
Speaker
ah Yeah, it was just funny. And it was the first time I'd stood on a podium for, oh, since probably 2014, right? So we're looking eight years down the track and I'm kind of like, I kind of like this. Like I kind of like the limelight of being on top and and being um being where I thought I should be in a way. um And if I felt...
00:40:46
Speaker
welcomed as well which was probably a big a main thing to sort of say as well like i think when you roll up to something new even though we all know trail running running it's all the same thing but when i rocked up and and i was welcomed and it was almost like oh, like this guy's pretty good. let's Let's try and keep him the sport as well, almost. Like that's that's what I, the reception I got. And um and I knew Nigel, um press the yeah, Nigel who runs um and from yeah XCR and stuff like that. So yeah, it was always, it was nice to sort of be at that event. and um And then yeah, went on to to Worlds and didn't have the best day.
00:41:29
Speaker
Talk about humidity. That race Chiang Mai in Chiang Mai, in pretty much almost their summer um yeah it wasn't wasn't my wasn't my day but as a lot of people said it's like this is your second trail race what a second trail race to be in yeah um talk about no expectations oh exactly um but the problem was i still had that naivety of oh, I'm a 30-minute 10K guy.
00:41:58
Speaker
These guys are trail runners. I'm like, oh, I should be in the top 10 here. Well, that was going to be a question. is that You've come in, you've beaten these guys. You probably have absolutely no idea who they are, but you took Joe by five minutes.
00:42:11
Speaker
Blake was the second behind him. Declan McKenzie, James Barnett. like Regardless of shape, you've scouted some pretty big names in the sport, especially in the Victorian side of the sport. Was there any part of you that came in and just thought this is a bit of a piss take?
00:42:23
Speaker
It's quite easy. I just it's like hard long run it and I won the race and set the course record by five minutes plus. I'd be lying if I said no. Yeah. Which I think it's expected. Like if you, yeah.
00:42:34
Speaker
Yeah. And I think I'll also touch on it in, in the next coming months as well in, the in the new year as well. Like it, it was and yeah like it sort of got to i was like domestically i was kind of like oh like i'm just rolling up and sculpting and and getting bursts and podiums and and so forth and i was like oh like this is this kind of like a almost a walk in the park kind of thing like i i and like
00:43:05
Speaker
not Not in a way, but I think the the way I say that is isn't I was cocky or I was too confident, or was but I not appreciated the effort that I actually was putting in in those races. Right.
00:43:24
Speaker
right So i think when you don't know how to run a climb like Dodds or um ah Clear Spot at Buffalo, when you don't appreciate actually how hard those climbs are and when you go out and just do it and just do it well, it's kind of like...
00:43:47
Speaker
um you kind of dismiss it. You're kind of like, oh, well, that, like, how did no one come with me on that climb? So now that I look back at it it's like, I think I thought it was easier than what it actually, what I was putting in.
00:44:02
Speaker
Yep. If that makes sense. oftening I think I actually was, hey, in prime
Integration of Trail Running
00:44:10
Speaker
time. like i And I was new to it, so it was it was something new and energetic. And i was running off a lot of adrenaline and I was enjoying winning. And I had this drive. And I think it was just a perfect concoction for me in that sort of stint of six months where it was like,
00:44:26
Speaker
i'm i'm I'm confident. Like, and when you get a role of that, you pretty much become almost unstoppable in a way um because confidence and and and that willingness to just be like, I'm having fun.
00:44:42
Speaker
I'm enjoying being winning. I'm getting all this praise and and a lot of people are talking and this buzz. You just kind of, you ride with it in a way. um So, but yeah, like,
00:44:54
Speaker
Looking back as well, trail running had always been a part of my training in a way. like Growing up in the western suburbs in Williamstown, like the closest spot where we'd go for long runs is the Yu Yangs.
00:45:10
Speaker
Right. So we would be running on those single trails, climbing, running up those mountains, like the mountains there. Like, obviously, it's not Dandenong's, but also would go over to Fernie Creek and do long runs in there and and and certain things like that. And whenever there was a single track or something like a trail, I would go and run it, not thinking...
00:45:30
Speaker
that I was trail running, it was just like, oh, this is different to running on a footpath or this is nicer than running on a footpath and so forth. So it wasn't like I completely was new to the sport per se. Like, I think, yeah, running at the Yu Yangs, running at Fernie, I always probably did show signs that, hey, I could run up a climb pretty efficiently and pretty well.
00:45:55
Speaker
um So yeah, like don't don't take it as like I just kind of like walked straight out in my spikes onto the trails and just went, as they say, you can't take a Ferrari off off the road. But no, it was definitely still like, and cross country, right? Like I'd shown pedigree in running off-road on terrain that was unpredictable undulating um and not based on time right so purely just racing and i think yeah so it was it was a perfect storm that steve reached out said hey yeah give this give this a crack and hey i kind of never really looked back in a way um mind you yeah like in in 23 i still did a a lot of track races and and
00:46:45
Speaker
got my 3k and 5k PB still to this day um in that season as well. So yeah, like 8.15 and 14.19, it's not too bad for someone that was training and and so and running on the trails at that time. so Yeah, it's interesting loopop going back through your results and looking at how quickly you were performing, but not just performing on more runnable trails like Rollercoaster, but performing on trails like Kunanyi and 23, you came second, but I'm pretty sure you took a wrong turn and Piotr went past you. Is that right?
00:47:17
Speaker
Yeah, so ah yeah I did the VK the day before um and Jeremy had an entry into the mountain run and said, um my back's too sore.
00:47:28
Speaker
I can't do it. Do you want take my entry? And I was like, yeah, why not? I need to do a long run. I'll go do it. And yeah, just kind of like sat at the back. I think I was like 15th or something. and then we started getting on the climb and I just kind of like got to the front and i was like, oh, okay.
00:47:45
Speaker
i'm I'm leading this now. I probably should start. And like, once again, it was, there's that element of just naivety of like kind of ah nutrition wasn't even a thing that I, i don't even, I don't, I didn't have a gel. I didn't have anything. And like, this is a 25 K race with what, 1600 meters of climbing. I didn't have any liquid on me.
00:48:06
Speaker
It was just like, I just went out and ran it. Yeah. and down And, yeah, like, had led to the top and then Piotr, he caught me down, down the climb. And him being a local, I just kind of, like, was following him because I wasn't too sure um where I was going. i it was, it like, it was well marked, but it also, like,
00:48:28
Speaker
It's a different world when you just come from something that's so easily um marked out. And then sure enough, um yeah, i i took two or three Ks ago, I just took off and I was ah took a wrong turn and sure enough finished second. And yeah, i was like...
00:48:45
Speaker
that' that's it's one one that still pains me. Yeah, I can tell. more it At what point do you feel like that? I'm to think of a good word to put this. It's like energetic ignorance, essentially, of everything's fun, new, curious, but you also don't really know the way you said you don't fully understand the effort you're putting out, the pain you're going in, the level of people that you're beating as well, and just having fun with it. When did, or if it has, when did that kind of stop?
00:49:13
Speaker
or change I would probably say almost that world champs that year, so 2023. i did I did both the uphill and the classic at that champ, so whereas in Thailand i only did the classic. And I think Thailand was a write-off in the way that it was like, well, this is this happened purely because heat changed It was my second trail race, so forth.
Balancing Ambition and Realistic Goals
00:49:42
Speaker
Whereas is this happening in June 2023, I've been trail running now for sort of six to nine months, um putting in the effort, really training and and really dialing in my training for it.
00:49:54
Speaker
Got to that World Champs and I was kind of like, okay, like Thailand, put that in the past. This is where I'm going to be top 25. Like I had this goal that I was like,
00:50:06
Speaker
this is this is what i think i should i'm at and then got there the the vertical race ruined me like i i i was the first to aussie but i it was it was a brutal race like it it it broke souls that race like it was it was stunning but the last climb like it was about 800 meters of 40 percent just up a ski thing and no one was moving quick up that that climb but and then i was like okay classic this is this is where i'm this is what i'm this is cross country like let's do it and in that race i think in the first k i was probably fifth or sixth
00:50:46
Speaker
Like there's videos of me starting first climb in in fifth place and looking fine. And then we hit this climb and i just dropped. I dropped from fifth to seventh.
00:51:00
Speaker
And it kind of it kind of put that thing of back to when I was a junior where it was like I've put pressure on myself. I've put ive i've put a goal that is unattainable or a goal that – Isn't productive in the sense of... Isn't productive because the whole reason why I've done well is because I'm naive. I don't know what I should come. I don't know what i like where I should finish or how I'd compare against some of the other Aussies and and so forth. So it was sort of like, why do i expect that I should be...
00:51:31
Speaker
further up than what I could be. Like it it was, yeah. So I think when I came back from that, it was like, um I kind of was like, okay, I really need to like,
00:51:44
Speaker
take this on and take this seriously and and really build the blocks to what I need to, like, to get to that next level, to really be like, what, Nath's here. he's He's, like, he's going to put his best foot forward when it comes to at a world champs or internationally as well in the sport. So, yeah, that was probably the turning point of, like, okay, no, like, I need a i need a really – switch on and and but still enjoy like and and not chase an inevitable dream that i had as a kid like hey everyone dreams of winning a world champs and and being the home glory and coming back to the country and being like yeah i like that's what i did it's never like
00:52:32
Speaker
You've got to remove that and be like, that's an unproductive goal because it could once be attainable, but until it happens, it's it's not, right? Like any any world champion out there, unless it's like, unless you're Clabo at the Winter Olympics, it was almost like they just needed to hand him the sixth goal. But like no world champion or Olympic champion, they have the confidence that they could possibly win, but it's not really like, they at no point do they go,
00:53:03
Speaker
this is mine to win. Yeah. like you know Or even this is mine to lose. Like once you... Yeah, probably that's a better way to put it. Yeah. And i I find in this, once you envision that you're the person who's already attained the thing, your likelihood of actually doing it massively falls away. Like once you once you think it's it's my thing to lose or I'm going to win this or I'm worthy of becoming a top 20,
00:53:30
Speaker
It's this like yeah this pressure that often makes shoot. you're on your shoulders. Yeah, and you make the wrong decisions, you're in the wrong headspace, and it's all gone. 100%. Yeah, so it that as I said, that's that's probably that turning point. And then, yeah, 23, actually don't what races i did um that I'll tell you I've got it here. Like 23, you did a pretty impressive year. You might have ah gone further up in my ah my rankings for 23. You were like third at Donner, second at KMR, first at Buffalo, first at UTA 11, fourth at UTA 22. Then you had Worlds, 80th and 71st, second at BTU 30, first at Rollercoaster in the old, what whats whats stood until Seth took it, course record.
00:54:19
Speaker
Um, yeah, that was as um everything I've got on ITRA and UTMB for 23, I think. Yeah. I think I did a couple of small races in there, like surf post classic and as a relay and, and, um, one of the trails plus events at at Macedon, but yeah, it,
00:54:37
Speaker
Like I kind of just – that year is like, fuck. I look back and and go, how do i try and replicate that? like um Like that little string of like – yeah, what was it? It was like I'd done – I ran a three k PB on Thursday, then went and did Donna, came third, which I probably could have – If I hadn't have done that 3K, it was probably, it could have been a bit fresher. um Yeah, then went on to, yeah, KMR, like almost like a week or two weeks later um where I did um the VK came second, KMR mountain run came second. And then the week later, i think I came, I won Buffalo.
00:55:19
Speaker
And in between, and looking at my training in between those things, it was like ah was I went out and did Mount St. Leonard after Donna. and went and got the the CR up Mount St. Leonard. And then um the week after Buffalo, went back out to Donna because I ah i just hated how badly I performed on the climb.
00:55:43
Speaker
So I went out there to get redemption and, like, took some of the the CRs on that climb just in a training run. But they they were all back-to-back weeks. And I'm going, how did I – like, I couldn't even think of doing that much work. Yeah.
00:55:57
Speaker
without breaking down at this point. Like, it's like, I don't know what I was doing. And like, I was not, new like as I said, no nutrition.
International Experiences and Challenges
00:56:07
Speaker
It was just, it was off just,
00:56:10
Speaker
maybe a drink mix and that was it it was yeah it was wild time but um and then yeah like end of end of 23 planned a trip to head over to new zealand um which was two week trip um teeing up with uh toby bachelor who's um yeah new zealand's probably best performing mountain runner the last couple of years and then um yeah we're based in wanaka and where I, yeah, oh, it's an epic trip. Like, if anyone, if you, like, anyone in Australia, if you, and you're a trail running, you've not been to the South Island, like, get on a plane, head over there.
00:56:48
Speaker
um Wanaka is just, yeah, it's a special place. And, like, the fact that it's, yeah, it's a three-hour flight and an hour drive, like, it's it's europe it's it's wales it's it's every like all all the big spots that you can think of like in one place um and yeah just some epic runs and and the cool thing is the culture's the same um yeah it was it it was an awesome trip where i think yeah over the two weeks i probably averaged or got about 11 and a half
00:57:20
Speaker
thousand meters of climbing which was well above my average um and then came back from that trip and was doing hill reps down at yarrow bend and on second last rep i was i was just jogging down looked at my watch kicked a rock fell over pretty heavily and it's always it's always the ones where you run when you're running slower you land heavier um and sure enough yeah i just sort of um had yeah fell over was like oh something's a bit off and and sort of just was like no i think i'm fine went and saw a physio she was like oh you're probably just tender from from the fall because i like fell on my right hip and and so forth so i was like okay fine a week later i was that whole week i was i was pretty good um and then um
00:58:12
Speaker
It was just on and off. I was just in and out of of feeling pain and and not being able to run. and But I had um the VK it ah shot over moonlight over it back in Queenstown up Ben Loman. And I was like, I need to get ready for this. I need to get ready because I've paid for it and I'm there and everything. and Went over, didn't compete that well because the hip was just too naggy.
00:58:35
Speaker
And then that afternoon, me and Declan McKenzie were out on a rooftop having some beers. And I just went, you know what, we're going to the half marathon tomorrow. So we went and did the half marathon and was leading. And then Toby passed me because my yeah hip started playing, but it still got second. And couple of weeks later, went out to Donna because we're preparing for the – this would have been the first Golden Trail tournament.
00:58:59
Speaker
race that we national series that we had so it was 24 donna we went out there for a training where i could not go up this climb i'm like okay something's off and then went and saw a sports doc and sure enough yeah had partially dislocated my hip in that fall so That, yeah, pretty crazy to think that that has that was what had happened and I was still running on it for probably two months after the fact.
00:59:26
Speaker
um Fortunately enough, because it was like it had popped out and back in in the same movement pretty cleanly, All the issues that I really had was more around sort of the labrum and a little bit of the chipped cartilage. But other than that, structurally, it was actually fine.
00:59:46
Speaker
now So that was sort of a bit of a setback for 2024. Well, that was going to be one of my questions is there's not a lot until you did roller coaster again in 24.
00:59:57
Speaker
Was there anything else? I did Coastal Ascent. and as part of the the national series. And I think I came to seventh there. But that was that was early doors of of getting back into it. so And like a 30K coastal race was it was pretty – 27K or whatever it was. But, yeah, it' was probably a big ask. And then, yeah, I think I did – I probably did do a couple of those smaller small races in there. But, yeah, roller coaster, which was at the Seth year. 24 would be sethia yeah yeah so um which is not exactly like you you still performed really well at that one like you especially because tough conditions and you were only a few minutes off your pb on it from memory so i think it's my third quickest time now at roller coaster but yeah it was pissing down rain the whole day um so most of the climbs were a waterfall of um slippery and and everything like that i think yeah 139 was my time or something like that so Yeah, or one yeah whatever it is. But yeah, so that was a bit of a setback of a year, 24.
01:01:05
Speaker
um twenty four But I kind of, with no world champs that year, it wasn't like the worst thing ever. um Because ultimately, yeah my goal set is probably predominantly based around these, like the world champs, um just coming from where I've, my background, like,
01:01:26
Speaker
as much as i understand the whole scope of these utmbs and and so forth and um world cups and stuff like that is it's the world champs to me is still that pinnacle in my mindset um and that's yeah sorry to drop that like So something that I really respect about you is that the world champs seem to be the focus. And I think it's to a degree, it's different because you're not in the ultra category where UTMB is big, but there is the world mountain running cup.
01:01:59
Speaker
You could be chasing that across the world and performing there, but it still seems to be that, yeah, going for that, the domestic golden trail and then getting the the world mountain is your focus. Is that coming from the cross country, having already had that experience representing worlds as a junior and that feeding through? hundred percent. Like I think, yeah,
01:02:21
Speaker
To me, it's for me to show that like my performance and and who I am as a trail athlete, it's it's probably the purest way to do it is at these championships. It's like you've got to be there. You've got to perform on that day.
01:02:38
Speaker
You're representing your country and there's 80 other countries also represented. um So it's like if you can put your best foot forward on those days, that's the result that will forever go down sort of more in history rather than hey I could win 15 roller coasters before I retire or finish up running. And it's like, who cares?
01:03:03
Speaker
you know what like it It doesn't mean anything in a broader sense. Yeah, so like I think for me, and a probably on a larger scale as well, like I could probably go, i don't know, one year and chase the Golden National Series or, as you said, the World Mountain World Cup and and follow however many races I need to do and and come twenty first in that series or if I can ultimately get myself to a ah top 25 position at a world champ I think that to people would be longer lasting or and but also to myself as well like I think I go because it's just one day that you have to perform
01:03:47
Speaker
Whereas like these series and stuff like that, as much as they are fun, it's like, well, it takes a lot of time and effort and all those sort of things as well. But it's not as remarkable or like as special to me. Yeah.
01:04:00
Speaker
in in that space so yeah like that's yeah so 24 was a little bit of a right off of year and then 25 kicked in and um i think it was like first of gen was running down the down the coast didn't talk in was like cut right cut things yeah left calf i'm like oh that's that's not great and then um Yeah, sure enough, had a bit of a calf issue that sort of put me back until sort of February, almost mid-Feb.
01:04:28
Speaker
And so i was sort of picking up the scraps, trying to get ready for um for the National Series, like the Golden Trail National Series, and which i've that was probably as a goal, was that. And then obviously World Champs later in the year as well. Yeah.
01:04:47
Speaker
And yeah, when i had that setback, it was like it kind of made that timeframe, which is what January to March pretty fine. But then when it's mid Feb, you kind of like, well, I've got four weeks to get ready or not even like three weeks to get ready.
01:05:05
Speaker
um And sure enough, I stupidly just went, I'm going to do Donna. I went into Donna. um and yeah koerner's obviously rocked up and he he'd done a lot of work on his descending so he he climbed just as good as he always does and then um yeah descended um far better than he did the year before but i got to the top of that climb and i was was pretty tapped as you could imagine um and the following week was national champs in adelaide and
01:05:38
Speaker
With work, like I work full-time um for the listeners. I work for Garmin, so go buy garments. But i I plan to, because I look over SA, so I went over there for a work trip for that week and before the national champs in Cleland.
01:05:55
Speaker
And coming off Donagh, that whole week, I was like, all right, just keep it lay low, train well, whatever. Got to that national champs and I was just like, i'm um something's off.
01:06:06
Speaker
like it was a hot week in Adelaide sleeping in a different bed the whole week working as well it was just like yeah something's not quite right and then got to that start line of the race and within a k I was like yeah this this is not happening um especially when you're yeah phrase who's just rolling 340s up a climb and you're like yeah probably even on my good day I don't think I could could go with that.
01:06:33
Speaker
And, yeah, so that that that race was a point where I was like, okay, Worlds is probably not happening now in my eyes was have I done enough to warrant, um yeah, like getting on a World Champs team? One thing that I do have completely skipped over, I did spend six weeks in America 2024. I was going to ask where the Broken Arrow and Headlands, like what year that was in That's 24? Yeah, that was 24. So 24 wasn't too much of a write-off, actually, now that think about it So i went over and did two of the Cirque Series races, which is one of the like the best, I think, community mountain series in the world. like that is I think there's about seven or eight races where they travel around America and choose some of the most...
01:07:23
Speaker
scenic ideal um national parks or ski ski resort areas and like did one in alta in salt lake city and and um one in targi which is behind the grand tetons in wyoming so stunning off off the track um off the beaten track locations and yeah that that was awesome came fifth in the alta race and i think i had ah a bit of a bad day on in targeting came twelve or eleven and um yeah, once again, like racing overseas, it kind of like it awakens you a little, being like, okay, i I'm used to being on a podium in Australia. i come over here and it's like you look and you're kind of like, that guy doesn't look like he could be that quick, but obviously they live in these these surroundings and and that's their backyard. So, it yeah, it's amazing.
01:08:18
Speaker
it's always good and it's a lot of experience and and when you're traveling to races where yeah yellowstone was just around the corner so did a day trip there and and once again as my remark was most the my most memorable runs uh runs where you just go out and you don't care and like running up to the um grand tetons to the to lake there ah yeah, some of the most stunning stuff. And fortunately have a friend that, um, has a house in Colorado Springs. So I spent most of my time down in Colorado just near, um, yeah, Pikes Peak, which is, um, the big mountain there. And, Did a lot of my training at above 2,500 meters. um Put a lot of work in at that sort of altitude and then went popped across to Headlands, which was the Golden Trail National Series. No, Golden Trail Series, of the World Series at Headlands. and
01:09:17
Speaker
got Got my legs blown off me. You know what the rest of the world is like. yeah with Yeah, with the likes of Hussein and Remy. I still remember the yeah watching the sprint finish for that between Elezin and Philemon, I think it was. yes yes like The speed those guys can go downhill and and obviously uphill as well. But it was just i I was looking at how are they still on this trail? like It's not possible.
01:09:41
Speaker
crazy and like that that video still gets played right like once again it's it's a cool thing that like i might not have had my best day but how cool that ah i can go i was actually on that start line like i was i was out there doing that and it was actually a pretty fun course that like in the headlands running through the redwoods of um the north part of san fran and yeah like Coastal trails as well. Like it it had a bit of everything on that course. um And then the week after, yeah, did Pikes Peak, which not for the faint-hearted face at all. um
01:10:16
Speaker
Pikes Peak Ascent, it wasn't the marathon, which is up and down. But yeah, 21K, Joe Gray was on the start line. So for many people that know him, nine-time world champion, I believe, in mountain running. And it's He lives in Colorado Springs, so it's his backyard. and You start at 2,000 metres, you finish at 4.3 and it's 21k with, what, 2,300 metres of climb, a little bit more. And you get to about 3.3 and the body doesn't know what it's doing.
01:10:49
Speaker
So yeah it's a staying at 2,500 and getting used to training there, did it feel like you had enough time for your body to actually, no, he's shaking his head. why And I actually had a quick chat with Joe ah at the top and it was he was like, the problem that you've had is you probably feel like you can put effort in now that you've been here for four weeks or like four weeks at sort of 1,500 plus.
01:11:18
Speaker
But the problem is once you – that's in zone three or zone four. If your body goes in into zone five, stay later. like And I think that happened at Headlands where as much as I came down to sea level – my body had been working overtime in terms of recovery like trying to sleep at that altitude as well it you're never going to sleep properly ah so yeah but once again awesome trip six weeks over there and like got to meet a lot of people and and i still do um keep connected to a lot of people and that's the cool thing with this sport is is networking with people and And for future events, if they come over here or I go over there, you've got a point of contact. And it's always nice. And we all know that trail running can get a little bit sort of daunting when you're going to a new location you kind of go, i don't know what trails are suitable and what aren't suitable. because There's many a times where I've rocked up and I've drawn this map on Garmin and and gone, yep, put it on my watch, roll up to the start point. And it's like it's the most technical thing in the world.
01:12:27
Speaker
And I thought I was going to go for an easy 8K. it's It's very hard. So having those little points of contact is always nice to be able to go, hey, is this trail fine or do you recommend something else?
01:12:38
Speaker
oh One of the questions I've kind of got back in my head with is that i say at your level domestically you turn up to a race and you know that you're pretty much always racing for a podium if not the win like even at UTA yeah you turn up to the 22k and you're in that that conversation but obviously internationally you're just not like that very few people in Australia are in a podium conversation at what point do you think to get the best out of yourself as an Australian trail runner
01:13:10
Speaker
you do need to go over there and just be experience train, get destroyed by those other people. hundred percent. Like if, if I could spend six or seven months over there, I, I would, but Hey, like I,
01:13:25
Speaker
I've accepted that that's not my career path. um And I actually don't mind that because there's not much money and that's in in the sport as we know. So working full-time and and having a job that I have the flexibility to still be able to go do six weeks overseas. Like there's not many...
01:13:46
Speaker
job jobs out there that would allow you to do those sort sort of things. So, yeah, I'm very fortunate and very thankful for Garmin to allow me to to do these and chase my dreams still. so um But, yeah, like it it definitely, the racing side of it,
01:14:05
Speaker
Probably less so. It's just more the elements. if if Like living in Melbourne, I have to travel to get to ah to the Dandenongs, which is 45
Trail Running Challenges in Australia
01:14:17
Speaker
to an hour. and And like, hey, they then they're no match to the Alps or the Pyrenees or the Rocky Mountains. Like there's no conversation. Like we're talking about you're running these mountains, but you're already starting at 1,000 as well, right? And and you're you're climbing 1,000-plus metres. It's unheard of that we like we just don't have it here. And either even in New Zealand, as much as I love New Zealand, it doesn't have altitude. That's the one thing it doesn't have. Yeah.
01:14:52
Speaker
But, yeah, it definitely is paramount. i I don't think I've raced enough overseas to sort of see the benefit from it. Like, I'm sure there is. I'm sure if you're just going in and out, if you could follow the the World Cup or the Golden Trail Series, you're going to get better, right? Because you set yourself benchmarks. You go, okay, well, this time I've finished in this position around these certain peoples. And it's the same as...
01:15:18
Speaker
um even local leagues like XCR, it's not until the first round that you kind of go okay, these are the guys that I'm finishing around. That's my next target is to get to that next group and so forth. So I think, and then you can kind of really understand who you're racing against, where their strengths are and where your strengths lie as well. Because as we all know, especially in mountain running is you've got really good climbers,
01:15:45
Speaker
you've got really good descenders or you've got some people that just kind of fit in between. And if you're racing someone that you're kind of like, oh, I'm going past this person on a climb. So you kind of get this confidence, okay, let's let's really push it.
01:16:02
Speaker
But then that person knows I'm not the best climber, but I can descend really well. And then you get to that next descent and all of a sudden they're a kilometre ahead of you and you go, well, okay.
01:16:12
Speaker
Okay, now I know where I am. So, yeah, 100%. There definitely would be more benefit in in racing, but, yeah, I'm i'm not yeah ah able to do it. But, um be yeah, this this year, like with some of my future plans for this this year, I'll hopefully um be able to experience some more overseas stuff. We'll tease that for a sec. it's um it's It's one of those thoughts where you i think, okay, like at what point are you tapped out domestically and and you are being held back? And I think when we were doing the the recaps of people's years and choosing performances, et cetera, and I was thinking to people like Charlie or even Anna McKenna outside of injury is that like they're choosing to go. like Anna was always going across the Black Canyon to race to get the golden ticket as opposed to Tarawera, where she could probably...
01:17:00
Speaker
like the travel is less, the culture is more similar, probably could run herself into it that way. And Charlie's choosing to go to Cape Town or he's going across a Broken Arrow like and getting exposed to these different people, different training ideas, different like training environments. And like is that what's going to pay off for them more long term? Obviously, they have the opportunity to do that. But just how much of an impact that could make? Or can you get the most out of yourself while staying in Australia? Yeah.
01:17:27
Speaker
Yeah, like, and ah as as we said, it really depends on, like, what's what's the goal? what What is the race as well? Like, and and how? But for me, the challenge is yeah, how do I maximise my stay in Australia before going to these overseas races as well, right? So...
01:17:47
Speaker
100% it can be achieved. um But I think how it will be achieved is if everyone... And here in Australia... And this is this is me now starting to think of the the big scope of where trail running is in Australia, is there's too many races, for one.
01:18:04
Speaker
There's too many races. There's too many things going on. There's too many directions. There's people being dragged here, being dragged there. When I was in America with that Cirque Series... Is it was funny how every race I rocked up to familiar faces.
01:18:21
Speaker
Races like Mason Copey, who were now will start to know that name a little bit more being an American runner. And like he was at four all four of the races that was at.
01:18:33
Speaker
I chose four different. I didn't know what I was choosing. I just chose four. Yeah, okay. I chose two in the same series and and one was a Golden Trail. So that's going to attract more people. But then he was also at Pikes. Yeah.
01:18:45
Speaker
And it's like these are the things where it's like if if you have people just continuously rocking up to the same races, the depth just going to grow and grow and grow. And if you can get so we're in a position where – and like – Do I love being on ah knowing that probably I will finish on a podium most times? Yeah, okay. But, hey, if I end up coming 10th purely because that's how deep the field is, how good that? yeah And if you continue that and then all of a sudden you have five races of that a year and then half of that field go overseas, of course they're going to go overseas being more tuned and being more ready
01:19:26
Speaker
Because some races here in Australia, you go out and you're in your own thoughts. You're not racing against people. You're not having to run at someone else's tempo. You're not having to do all these things. And I think when you had Ian on um as well and and talking to him personally, like he's the guy that loves, he thrives on time trials.
01:19:49
Speaker
and i'm running in that element. Whereas for me in terms of um with world champs, you can't have that. So being able to be so with someone and and getting into their mind as well within the race and kind of going, okay, well, how are they feeling? This is how I'm feeling.
01:20:10
Speaker
and And trying to break those barriers of like – being discomfort like uncomfortable in certain scenarios and breaking through that to then turning it into a a positive as well.
01:20:22
Speaker
um Being like, no, no, no, you're running at their tempo, but they're doing all the work and and certain things like that. Whereas, yeah, like if if you can kind of create a little bit more of a um consistency in the competition here in Australia, like we definitely do have the depth to get to that point. But yeah, like I think...
01:20:42
Speaker
opportunity is one um and reason and like incentive is probably the other. Like why, yeah, why, why would people rock up to a race where they could potentially come 10? Because you want to get the best out of yourself.
01:20:57
Speaker
Like you're not, you're never going to, if you can just, if you know you can rock up and win a race again or you get on a podium, like, yeah, it feels good, but you're never going to find your best self that way. No, but the problem, the other issue is, yeah like is the incentive of,
01:21:13
Speaker
If there was an incentive to be like to continuously rock up and and slowly make your way up those ranks, that'd be cool. Like, and I'm a massive one around, like like ITRA, UTMB Index and and these sort of things, but it needs refinement. And I think within Australia, like if you can kind of create a system where it's like, okay, we've chosen these eight races. Yeah.
01:21:39
Speaker
You only need to make four of those races year what year long to get points. Well, you kind of understand there's there's a whole conflict of what races do you choose and all these sort of things. But it's like all of a sudden you then create incentive to rock up to certain races and you create this whole meaning to like like sort of prepare for certain scenarios and those sort of things. Like, hey, yeah. My my question to you then would be, we saw the Golden Trail National Series in 24 and 5 essentially did what you're talking about. There were four races. You had to do three of them.
01:22:19
Speaker
the there There were plenty of arguments about where they were and what they were, et cetera, et cetera. But 24, it was really competitive. I remember seeing the start list and going like, this is sick. Like this is actually deep fields.
01:22:32
Speaker
25, it wasn't really there. And now in 26, I know this isn't necessarily this due to the same thing, but we're only seeing a single event at Donut. So what you're describing to at a sense has existed, but it hasn't worked. So what do you think was missing from that?
01:22:46
Speaker
Incentive. Like you you don't think getting like a free ride to the Golden Trail National aid to the finals was enough incentive or is it just because it's just the first place that gets it? Well, yeah, exactly. So after 24, you go, okay, cool.
01:23:03
Speaker
Leo pretty much wiped the floor. Good on you, Leo. Awesome. 25 comes along. Leo's almost fitter than what he ever was. He rocks up, rocks up to the first race at KMR.
01:23:16
Speaker
And it's like I understand people have beaten him and and gotten on top of him, but it's like once he has one good result, it ah almost puts it out of proportion that it's kind of like, well, you've now only got two or three people that could potentially knock him off.
01:23:34
Speaker
And there's no incentive if you're that fourth person to try and knock off second and third because it's like even if you come second, Who cares? Yeah. Like you get you get an entry, but you've got to pay all your own way, et cetera. So the, yeah.
01:23:50
Speaker
The novelty of it. and And the problem is, is if you're rocking up to any of those races and finishing on a podium, you get nothing ultimately as well, right? Like, so why would I rock up to a golden trail race that's going to be really competitive and unfortunately kind of detrimental if you have a bad race to ITRA points, to UTMB points if they're included or whatever?
01:24:16
Speaker
which we can get into around um how selections and stuff are ah chosen. And hopefully, yeah, like we'll we'll get a clearer picture moving forward. But these are the things is like, well, in my mind, it's like, well, what if I did have a bad day and all of a sudden I get ah bad interest score against some of the people that I also will be wanting to be selected over?
01:24:42
Speaker
at the next world champs and if if there's no money incentive or there's no like drive to then rock up to that next one because if you i don't know if you create this eight race series and it's kind of like well if you're in the top two by the time the next world champs comes around guess what you're on the team Good on you.
01:25:06
Speaker
Like all of some people kind of like, okay, there's opportunities here that I can, if I rock up to these four. And, that hey, there might be a bit of strategy. Chuck a race over in Perth. who Who can get over to Perth? Not many people.
01:25:19
Speaker
Well, you've got opportunity. Like if you if you're willingly wanting to chase that thing and you might be that fifth guy that pops over to Perth, gets a cheeky win, all of a sudden you you're in the conversation and it it creates creates flair and and and those sort of things. So I think, yeah, incentives is the the biggest thing is why am I rocking up to your race? Why am I rocking up to these races?
01:25:42
Speaker
um Because – and I don't think throwing money at it is – always the best thing either because it creates a different conversation it's like oh we'll come to this race because we've got all of this and it's just kind of like yeah but no i i want to do it because i want to compete really well and i understand that should bring more people in moving we'll we'll see if it does well have have you looked into the start list for donna Well, i kind of I've kind of heard word. I don't know. I haven't seen anything. um I don't know if you've got anything or anything like that. but <unk> And and then we we'll both say well we will talk about your future stuff. We've since said it so many times. But like it is interesting for the listeners. I think, is it $5,000 for the winner? Is that correct? Yes, $5,000. And then I don't know what where how it tears off, but ah like two maybe $2,500 and then $1,000. Yeah. So I was talking to Ian today about it.
01:26:37
Speaker
And um he was asking me like who's who's in it And there isn't, we're trying to get a start list, but you can on the website and they're like they've got all the names. You've got to search the individual names. So I have searched every name I could think of. And there's three of you at the moment that I would classify without knowing, like obviously anybody could come in that we don't know about, but there's yourself, there's Toby Lang and there's Brady. And so right now,
01:27:00
Speaker
You guys all know you're walking away with a grand at least, um unless there's somebody that comes in. But clearly the incentive of a lot of cash hasn't done it for people, at least not as of now, which also makes me think that, yes, money is nice. It's nice to get a check the end the day, but a grand isn't consequential.
01:27:20
Speaker
like granted five grand, if you went and won 10 races and you get five grand each time, 50 grand a year from your running is pretty significant. but we're not talking And I think ah as well, like it's like, it's this whole golden ticket thing. It's like, well, what I win, I get five grand and I pretty much get a free trip to, I think it's South Korea this year. Right. So it's like, how good's that?
01:27:41
Speaker
But then and I understand two and a half and a thousand, it's nothing to scoff at, but like for a lot of people, By the time they get to that start line, they've probably spent $1,000. Yeah, definitely. Flights, accommodation, travel, um leave from work, whatever it may be. It's it's a big thing.
01:28:01
Speaker
and And then same for second. like ah as much as yeah like I don't know exactly how it's teared down, but... um The opportunity loss is massive on it. Unfortunately, I do know there there's a couple of names that probably are missing via injury and and certain other things as well. But, yeah, like yeah I ain't going to complain.
01:28:22
Speaker
no Yeah, but i think I think for the growth of the sport, because it's such a short-term fix, because it's we know that it probably won't last forever. um And so if it doesn't last forever,
01:28:38
Speaker
It's kind of like it's ah it's a short-term fix to try and create this hype and create a certain thing, but ultimately something else will win out.
01:28:48
Speaker
and like And what that could be is obviously something like UTA and and the UTMB side of things. But... um If you create a more club-based oriented organizational series where it's like my points matter, like this matters, like I need to do this. And hey, I'm sure there's people out there that would probably cry wolf if it doesn't go their way. and not not saying Not knocking them if if that was the case. Like if if there's certain races that they had planned to do and for some circumstances they couldn't get there and and so forth. Like I understand. But that's why you leave two extra spots. Yeah.
01:29:31
Speaker
for discretion. Like exactly what happens if some person shows signs or has previously shown signs of really good performance and consistency in aspects, but just couldn't put it together for a certain time period. Well, Hey, that's why you've still got two spots.
01:29:50
Speaker
oh And like, Hey, it's cool. Yeah. That we had the 50 K champs on, on the weekend and it was, yeah, like that. But how do you have,
01:30:01
Speaker
something if we're trying to make this it i like the idea but it's so inclusive not yeah exclusive in the way that it's like it's so hard to get to it's so far out of the way and like i understand how they wanted to to do it and but it's just like for some people they just wouldn't have been able to get there and so That's all of a sudden that's just one opportunity that they had to come first a second to get on the team and they can't do it.
01:30:30
Speaker
Well, now now you're biting for two spots. i say So having a little bit of a series and and like for trial like ul the trail stuff, it's like, yeah, you can probably shrink that and be like um have three or four races or whatever it may be. But, yeah, like that these are things and understand that.
01:30:51
Speaker
It can't just happen overnight, right? like But I would like to see, like, um and I've spoken to Jeff Russell about this numerous times, is, like, if AA is somewhat in control, why are we not also working with state governing bodies as well, right? Like, why? And I love to see, like, how...
01:31:12
Speaker
Adelaide's got their summer series. Perth have got their summer series. Queensland have got their thing. We've got nothing down here in Victoria. I don't know why like why that is. like I understand we've got massive races and that's probably that the competition is probably pulled away and single tracks our sort of own thing here. But like... um Yeah, hey, food for thought. If anyone wants to have the conversation about I'm more than happy to chew someone's ear off for three hours about it. But um yeah, sort of back to like back to where I am and and a little bit of my story. was like I think with World Champs last year –
01:31:54
Speaker
I think for myself, I showed that there's potential that Aussies can compete. And I think our like our whole Classic team and uphill team showed that if we, yeah, if everyone really strings this together, like we can be a force to be reckoned with in terms of a team aspect as well, um having all four pretty consistently in that, class ah the three of us in that Classic race. um But yeah, so...
01:32:22
Speaker
So what you're describing, do you think that's what Australia needs to bridge the gap from 50% as our goals to top 25%, for example? Yeah, like think... twenty five percent for example yeah like i think Consistency makes perfect, right? Like if if you can consistently grow the sport and incentivize people to buy into it and follow along, like it's only going to grow it.
01:32:47
Speaker
Like whereas if no one knows where to start, like I still don't know where like what I should be racing and what I shouldn't be racing. Because for a world champs, especially next year, there's no light on exactly what will get you on that team just yet. And based on previous years, it's kind of like I don't know what I did, but I did something right. yeah um And like for me, I think being on the team now for three years in row, like three in a row and and and showing progress, I think that like for me, ah hopefully that that shows that, okay, like I'm someone that
01:33:28
Speaker
there there's a opportunity as well to to so sort of still see growth. But yeah, like if you don't have any measure of, like as I said, like ah I was the best performer in that classic race, but I don't know what I need to do to be on that team next time. Yeah.
01:33:46
Speaker
or what races I should be rocking up to. Like, hey, we've got national champs coming up, but there's not been any word of does it actually matter? Yeah. That's a pretty good point. And it's it's too late to do that. Yeah.
01:33:58
Speaker
Because, well, I've made plans to go somewhere else, right? like its So it's kind of like, well, if two months ago you said if you're at that race and you, don't know, come top two or first or whatever it may be, you're not auto-selected because we're too far away. Like we're talking looking at October 27, but it puts you in good stead.
01:34:21
Speaker
Like you'd almost have to completely drop off the face of the earth to probably not be selected for 27 if you are still running competitively yeah at and and are able to do it. um and so And then next year, people incentivize people rocking up to worldcha the the national champs because if you're top, like, as with World Cross Country as a junior, it was if you're top six,
01:34:50
Speaker
you're going pretty much. It was like signed, sealed and delivered. you you There you go. um And I understand how I said around having a series, but having a national champs is also quite important because it allows that person that might just be able to perform on those singular days and make it all happen on that day.
01:35:13
Speaker
And then you're kind of like, well, I actually trust in that person to perform way better at world champs than someone that can consistently come in the top three positions in all of our series races. So there's different ways that you can really market it. And like some people might be like, yeah, I can't do the series, but I'm going to go give the national champs a red hot crack. Yeah. Because realistically, when you're the cost of domestic flights in Australia is massive and we've got to go such a long way. Plus, as we said, like just the sheer opportunity cost of each one of these events, like what you have to give up to make it happen, even if that's just your leave or your weekend away from your family, you don't want to be doing that in some cases four times a year.
01:35:56
Speaker
And if you can... I'd argue it's a very different type of person and it can be the same person, but it can be very different people that can show up four times and come top three, like you said, but then can actually do it when all the pressure is on and it really matters. Like that's a different talent skill, whatever you want to say about it. Like that is what we want to be looking at. And then I think also...
01:36:16
Speaker
seeing that transfer across to international racing people with international experience who have also been able to put in a good day doesn't be the best day but that i would personally what what wait as well i'm very conscious of i could very easily make this conversation go for three hours right now so yeah i was looking all the time just then i'm like i'm like is there going to be a part two and everyone will like oh mate's got a part two oh god no i um are you okay for a little bit longer 100% yeah yeah sure I think I think my girlfriend's waiting outside but um who oh yeah she's fine out there um okay so i will tell you I think that's a really interesting discussion and I want to ask lot more questions but in the interest of I think that we're probably talking to a few a much smaller percentage of the the listenership right now i'm I'm going to move it on
01:37:07
Speaker
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01:37:10
Speaker
You were sponsored by Lasport TV for a free year. I think this is your... Is this your third year or your fourth year with ON? Yeah, coming in the third year. mean to say yeah So, yeah. So, I was with Lasport TV for a brief period in 23. And then, yeah, twenty started end of I joined and yeah they've they've been nothing but awesome. um Yeah, awesome team. And I've got yeah good relationships with with the internal staff and then also some of the other athletes as well. When we were talking earlier, when you're back training with Jack and those guys and thinking about becoming a professional, even just having more than a Nike like basic kind of team sponsorship,
01:37:53
Speaker
When you were putting pen to paper, signing the contract with On, I i don't know the behind behind the scenes of it, but what did that feel like? And did you feel any change of pressure turning up at that next race now you were wearing the kit?
01:38:07
Speaker
There will always be a little bit of a, hey, I'm rocking up. I'm sponsored. I probably should perform. every time I step on this start line. So, yeah, there's always that added element. And I think, yeah, there's definitely periods where some races that I have rocked up and I'm kind of like, okay, I'm sweating it here because what if this one guy that's somewhat um like almost not a known name, but like new to the sport or new a new name to the sport, what if he does...
01:38:40
Speaker
beat me kind of thing. there's ah There's those thoughts. But hey, like, as I said, like the team at all and like they're really supportive and I think it it goes beyond just the racing as well. Like I think um I'm very vocal on its awesome product um and their the new trail line. Like it's really good and I think being able to talking a bit on that sponsorship side is if any anyone, any young people out there or anyone for that matter, that's really would like to have support of a brand is you've got to really think about
01:39:17
Speaker
not just numbers, not just results, but really what why why would they want to support you and look after you and and what do you offer them as well?
01:39:27
Speaker
Because ultimately, realistically, they're doing more for you than you could ever probably do for On, right? like it's like Or for for any brand that is. like On don't need me in a way. I think...
01:39:43
Speaker
i mean and like'd i Sorry, I interrupting. I'd argue in the sense that your individual perspective is more likely to say, thank you for giving me this opportunity. That's what you always see in in the post, not like, not not they've recognised my value and we're creating a strong partnership from this. And you're right, I'm objectively the new cloud ultra pro people that i coach to go into it 90 of people love that shoe which is not what you would historically have said about on trail lineup you don't have to comment there but um the so the product is good but we need a visual of somebody good using it like it's just it is just how we work and if we didn't see anybody if we didn't see you wearing on in those shoes running well yes the take-up would probably be there but i'd argue it would have taken longer to have got some attention
01:40:33
Speaker
domestically. Yeah. And like, I think my point that i just sort of put down there was more around like my results, right? I think when you put the whole scope of it in, I'm adding value. Like it's, it's not like I'm just receiving the product and going out there and running a quick time you winning races and all those sort of things. Like I think deep down in the roots, it's like, well, within my line of work, I do come across, like I do walk into a lot of running stores and all those sort of things. And I give feedback around the product as well. So all of a sudden it's just kind of like, well,
01:41:12
Speaker
on probably don't need to have as many people out there talking about the product because Nath's out there doing it from ah almost a real perspective real time perspective and and at races and all these sort of things I will always um sort of talk around the product and and and really drive it and and And just their sort of ecosystem and and how they operate and what their vision is as well. And I think if you can marry with a brand's vision and and show value in that way as well, like I think that's to them, they kind of go, well, we'd much rather be supporting someone that's on the same wavelength as us and and and so forth and and really easy to work with as well.
01:41:54
Speaker
um And like, yeah, I've i've done. And ah the cool thing is, being sponsored by a brand is you kind of like doing the activations and rocking up to events and and being a face for a brand. They're the cool things.
01:42:12
Speaker
It's nice getting a whole um shipment of shoes and stuff like that. But I kind of like being a face of something and and being able to represent and feel proud of, hey, this is – what my training and effort has gotten me.
01:42:29
Speaker
But then also it's like, what can we build on? Like, what can we create this into as well? Like, what's the story that we can um really drive it? So yeah, like on, yeah, couldn't knock them at the moment. Like the ultra pro best descending shoe in the world.
01:42:46
Speaker
um And like probably one of the most comfortable just gravel running shoes as well. um Like I know a lot of the on-team in the office, they just casually, that's their road shoe is the old pro. So it just goes to show like,
01:43:05
Speaker
how far trail running shoes have come in the last couple of years, right? Like you you couldn't have, and coming from road as well to trail at that period of like super shoes and this new lightweight foam, and it was eye-opening kind of like I'm going for a race in heavier shoes than when I do my daily runs in.
01:43:28
Speaker
on On the road. my Easy runs. like Whereas now, it's obviously, we've we've completely gone back the other way and a lot of brands are putting a lot of money into into the trail space, and which I think it's deserved. like I think trail running in the next five years will...
01:43:47
Speaker
almost be matching certain certain elements of road running as well. um Like now that majors and and major marathons are selling out pretty quickly, well, where are those paying customers going to go when they can't get a Melbourne marathon entry? Well, hopefully something like roller coaster. Yeah.
01:44:06
Speaker
And once you do one and you experience the event, you get the community, it's pretty addictive. Yes. Yeah. understand. But yeah. what ah What's your, this is a shoe-nody question here, but what's your standpoint on lightness over amount of foam and propulsion? So would you would you prefer shoe that is 50 grams, 100 grams lighter, but doesn't have as much in it, or the the heavier but plated and bit more foam? ah Like for me personally, like, and this this isn't ah just a, like, the like the ultimate, like, it is my shoe in know in a weird way that it's like it's lightweight.
01:44:48
Speaker
It's not too lightweight that it's like, you pick it up and you go oh my God. But it's got that robustness to it, which I think for me, I just want to be in a shoe that I don't even think about.
01:45:00
Speaker
Like as soon as I put it on, there's no part of the sole, there's no part of the grip, there's no part of the upper that is... You're aware of. a wet yeah exactly right like so i want to be as comfortable as possible in any scenario hey like if i'm running a more flat course to ah a straight uphill could i probably adjust the shoe yes like do i need as much foam on an uphill race just a vertical probably not like do i want lightweight there
01:45:31
Speaker
Yeah, because by the end, your you're fatigued, your your legs get that little bit heavier. So if you've got something on your foot that's just a little bit more nimble and a little bit more flexible, yeah, perfect. But um whereas when it comes to a a lot of Australian trail running, it's...
01:45:48
Speaker
You want a shoe that's going to be substantial by the end of the run. So good cushion, good stability. But then you also want something that's got a lot of response because there's a lot of fire roads and and steady descent, steady climb. So... um Yeah, having something that's got the ability to be as stable as it is in technical, but also quite responsive when it comes to road running.
01:46:15
Speaker
It's very hard. And I think that's why it's taken a lot of brands to get to the point where they're kind of starting to master that a little bit. ah So, yeah, so anything that's really like...
01:46:29
Speaker
Sturdy, as I said, descending in the ultra pro. I don't have to think about where my ankles are landing in a way. like It's so sturdy in that space.
01:46:40
Speaker
um and Anyone out there that says, Nate's rolled his ankle. It hasn't been in that. Other shoes. Well, most likely, yeah, more the time road shoes when I've gone, ah um I'll jump on my trail. There's no more regret than that. But yeah, so yeah, like I've come from a shoe nerdy background anyway. Like I've i've been ah a sneaker collector for for many years back in my junior days. and And like I've been on the forums and and and all those sort of things as well. So like I always keep up with the tech and keep up with what's going on. And and um yeah, like I love innovation as well when it comes to shoes. So hey, like, yeah. Are we going to see the light spray on trail?
01:47:27
Speaker
I hope not. Okay. I haven't put it on my foot. I don't know what it feels like. So yeah. it's It's epic. So like I've got it. I've got it actually behind me here. For anyone doesn't know, this is like a sprayed woven, incredibly thin, incredibly light, but very flexible, should we say? It wouldn't. Yeah.
01:47:45
Speaker
super lightweight. The first one was on the strike sole. So Helen O'Beary debuted it. It's yeah yeah. They essentially spray the upper on, um, I don't know the exact fibers and stuff like that, but it's a robot that sprays it on. There's three of these robots in the world and it makes it in three minutes, the upper, and it ah it pretty much glues it straight to the sole. So when you slip it on, it's it's a sock. Like it's essentially you put it on and you just, there's no thought of like anything else. The only thing that you really feel is the responsiveness of Yeah. And today they actually yeah just released their first daily shoe with Light Spray. So the Hyper Monster. I don't know if they've changed the name on that, but yeah, Hyper.
01:48:32
Speaker
um And yeah, like it's an epic, epic innovation. I don't know how they would... manage to get it as stable as what you need for the trails but hey like there's there's a lot of hundred milers out there that um like western states and stuff like that that a lot of people just opt for the the road the road shoes so um there could be element to there with obviously if you get a hot temperature day like having an upper that is so breathable and and flexible it's uh
01:49:05
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Could come in. Yeah. We've gone very nerdy here, but I, yeah, I saw that the difference between the the hyper with the traditional upper and the hyper with the light spray upper was like two ounces, which I think is about 50 ish grams or so, which is like a very significant weight change. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, like anyone out there that's with that that new hyper, um with the normal upper, it's very similar to to what the Cloud Ultra Pro upper is. So anyone that is out there that loves the Cloud Ultra Pro upper, get your hands on the new hyper. Good little there was sales pitch in there. with like Your life is basically running now.
01:49:45
Speaker
with like Obviously, your your your job with Garmin is not solely running. I know you'll be talking to other sports as well, but it's sports and running. The brand are you working with on running?
01:49:57
Speaker
you As far as I know, your partner, she works at a running store, correct? Yeah. And you have previously also, you were at Soul Motive? yes yeah yeah so like everything is around running and it's something i find curious like myself for example last year i couldn't run for an entire year and my life is running do you ever find that too much for you or do you feel like this is where you thrive it's funny because i actually don't even think that my whole life is running right like it's like it's almost like it's it's happened that way but it's not like
01:50:29
Speaker
ah every day that I'm not waking up being like running, running that.
Balancing Professional and Running Career
01:50:34
Speaker
Like obviously, as you said, with Garmin, and it's like we're we're in different in the category ranges like cycling, golf and – In my role, it's not just solely talking about the certain products. it's ah There's numbers and everything like that. So in my day-to-day life, it's I'm not surrounded by running influence, if that makes sense. like a lot of my colleague None of my colleagues really run. So having that conversation, like I'm sure many runners out there, having a conversation with someone that doesn't run or...
01:51:06
Speaker
hasn't experienced someone that runs it's a it's a funny conversation to have because they the concept to them is why do you need to go do 20k in the mountains like it doesn't make sense so yeah like i i think yeah like i'm surrounded by a lot of that that it kind of blurs that out a little bit but hey like am i living a dream life to what probably my 15, 16 year old self would have if my 15, 16 year old self didn't know what he wanted to do the next day. But if realistically and in a roundabout way, if he knew kind of where he wanted to be, i think i'm I'm close to that.
01:51:49
Speaker
Like, to have the support of a brand, to be representing my country, like I've now done it four times, um and then work for a global brand, something that I'm actually passionate about as well. Like i've I've used Garmin for many years before I worked with them, so I'm passionate about it as well. so And I think...
01:52:11
Speaker
when you're passionate about something and you can really turn it into something like a living and ah a career, like it's a perfect storm. And then, yeah, trail running at the end of it is just like I love travel. I love i love nature and I love getting out there. And anyone that follows me on Instagram probably loves it. I love a scenic photo shot and all that. So, yeah, it's – Yeah, I can't complain. No, no as when you can turn your passion into a genuine career, it's it's and yeah i'm I'm in the same boat and it's an incredible feeling. You never quite know exactly how you've managed it, but it feels very good when you're there. like You look back and you know the decisions that you made to get to the point that you are, but you still kind of go, huh, this is what I'm doing.
01:52:59
Speaker
And as you just said, though, it's almost like the same thing as what I said with running. Like if you put expectation or a goal out there that, hey, this is what I kind of want to do,
01:53:12
Speaker
you probably might not always end up doing that thing and you might end up disappointed. Whereas like, as you just said, it, you just kind of like, you don't know how you ended up here, but you just kind of like did what you enjoyed and stuck to what you were passionate about and look where we are.
01:53:28
Speaker
Like it's like, it's, yeah, you, you, you kind of got to figure out the lighter things in life and just focus on, what brings you joy and if you yeah you're having fun then you're going to do well at it yeah there's a lot of correlations between this conversation and what i had with ben burgess as well and they're like a lot of his decisions were centered around where does the joy come from what's fun what excites me and then that's where he had his great results last year um and yeah curiously how he manages that going forward because you've already had that process from when you were
01:54:02
Speaker
younger and had to go through those moments. If On turned around to you right now and said, Nath, we're going to match your salary from Garmin for you to go full-time, three-year contract, do you want to do it?
01:54:13
Speaker
Do you think you would perform better like that? It's a hard it's a hard one because like mentally I don't think I would. like Mentally I think ah ah stability is good like in my life. like It's kind of like i I like not having to force running whereas if you went pro, obviously have all the resources. You've got the ability to go train with the best people, to train in the best locations, to live a life of like – um
01:54:44
Speaker
somewhat luxury in a way but mentally it's like well what is that like what what's the end of that right like okay cool i go out there and and i win world champs in 2029 or whatever it may be but what do i get out of that i understand that there could be careers that come from that stemmed from that like there could be products like developments so so certain things or commentary you know there's so many other things that can come from it and it it really depends but I think having a career outside of what running is, it keeps running special because if it becomes your job, there's the element of yeah stress.
01:55:27
Speaker
And the problem is your stress outlet when I'm working in my normal life is, well, I'll just go for a run. I'll clear my mind. If you're a pro and that's your job and you need to perform,
01:55:41
Speaker
and you're not enjoying running, where where's your outlet? in it And I think at this point in my career, in in my life, is we've gone past it. If you said that at 25, hey.
01:55:53
Speaker
hey You take it to what happens. Yeah. No, it's ah for someone like yourself, like you obviously you you travel a lot. You're on your feet a lot. So there's there's all these arguments for...
01:56:04
Speaker
an environment that would be more suited to training? the answer is like, yes, ah at a surface level, it would be. But it's I've noticed it with a lot of pros in US that go pro full time and you don't see the progression in their results. And you probably see a regression, especially in in their mental health or their their mindset towards it all.
01:56:24
Speaker
Okay, we've made everyone wait for two hours to know what's coming up for you. You obviously, you've raced at Tower Era 21 in crazy conditions as you've already gone through, got third place there.
01:56:38
Speaker
You're in for Donner, unless you're going to tell me that you've decided that you don't want the cash. um And then now we're looking to the rest of the year. So what's what's on on the cards? Yeah. so um Yeah, so I'm not going to tease anyone here. of for for Pretty much for the next half of the year, I'll ah i'll go Buffalo Skyrun, so the 20.
Future Aspirations and Exploration in Running
01:57:00
Speaker
And then off to the Rootburn. So the Rootburn over in New Zealand is a pretty – it's more of it like an a adventure sort of run, um only 400 entrants. And I met Jack Harris at World Champs last year and I was chatting to him about and I'd love to do it. And he goes, oh, well, bring this conversation up late at a later date and I'll see what I can do. And he's managed to get me an entry. So, yeah, we'll go head over there. But –
01:57:27
Speaker
The timing is probably not the best because um World Mountain Running Association announced their World Cup and all those sort of things. And I saw, oh, China. China's in April.
01:57:40
Speaker
China being the same time zone roughly to us isn't the worst thing either. um And it's not the longest flight. Like, yeah, okay, it is. It's 12 hours or whatever it may be. But...
01:57:53
Speaker
so it's it's It's pretty direct is what I'm probably saying. So you're not going trying to get to like Canary Islands or something like that. So I was like, oh, that's a pretty good set. And I've been on the email threads with with that sort of the organization of the all those those things. So I put in my interest and fortunately enough have been sort of yeah selected and selected.
01:58:15
Speaker
are heading yeah heading over to there. So it's going to be a pretty epic two weeks. Like the Rootburn, which is a trail that goes through two national parks in the South Island and New Zealand, pretty much from the Fiordland to Glenorchy.
01:58:30
Speaker
So, yeah, untouched, like mountainous, pristine terrain. And then the next week being in China, running on the Great Wall. and um i i can't think of it too like yeah there's no complaints um around that so um that will be yeah my month of april and then uta um 22 and then from there i'll decide depending on um the scope of how donna goes how china goes as well um
01:59:06
Speaker
and And so forth as well. So as we said, like there's no world champs this year. I was chatting to Ian about and no sky runnings on um this year and in the Canaries. And I've been to the Canaries once. And yeah, it's a stunning place. so But it's just hard to get to. Really hard to get to.
01:59:26
Speaker
And with um the World Cup, like the World Mountain stuff, the finals in Montreal or Quebec, one or the other, um once again, real hard to get to.
01:59:37
Speaker
ah And then there's always, yeah, like if if South Korea comes through or there's always the conversation, possibly head to Cape Town. um For Cape Town, I think it's called Trail Ultra.
01:59:48
Speaker
Yeah, the Ultra Trail, Cape Town, get some experience. yeah and get experience ahead of next year. So, yeah, there's a few options, but no like long stints like how I went in America for six weeks and then Europe last year for six weeks. And, hey, like that will probably be on the cards for for next year depending on how everything goes. But as as we said with um little bit like on my Europe stint and World Champs was how you said being in that environment and being able to put –
02:00:20
Speaker
everything, all the eggs in a certain basket and really dialing it in. It's something that I'm kind of proud of myself about was I coach myself. So I've got Steve there mentoring me, but I i still do all my programming and everything like that. And I think with that, it keeps me level-headed. It keeps me like there's no pressure. there's no I'm not chasing someone else's expectation as as we've gone through. So when I got to Europe, I was like,
02:00:48
Speaker
all right I know Ian's report on the vertical, so I know what that the terrain is there. and ah And I really broke down in the GPX files of exactly the elevation, what percentage each climb was and all these sort of things. So I really detailed all my sessions and all my training And, hey, in between i was doing adventure runs and and just having fun and exploring, but I really knuckled in and that's probably where we saw, yeah, how I had a pretty good result in that world. Great result. Yeah, like that, obviously, yeah, for next year I'll probably look to to do another stint like that, but...
02:01:27
Speaker
I keep getting um things on Instagram about Patagonia. are really yeah and I like that. The world's endless with all all the possibilities. But, yeah, I'll get to a point where trail running to me will just be a sense of – exploration um rather than competition um in a way but hey i'm still doing the the short stuff a lot of people start to venture that long stuff when they're older so there's always that yeah there's
02:01:59
Speaker
A lot of questions I still have, Nathan, I think we will need to have a follow-up because yeah I want to go into the fact that you are sticking with the short trail, your training and how that's evolved, like how you are threading that needle of keeping it fun, but training specifically for what you want to do with such an analytical mindset. But in the interest of ah Making sure people, because I want everyone to listen and to retain that. And I think there's a point at which podcast people start to to switch off and I'm sure there is a retention percentage. So I think we should finish that one there.
02:02:28
Speaker
ah really appreciate it. If you're heading up to yeah Buffalo Stampede, it's ah it's a good road trip list in this one. Yes, yes, definitely. um As it gets people two hours through a long run, that might be the whole thing. might be a few of them or it might be half of it. But yeah, i hope I hope everyone listening has enjoyed that. I've definitely enjoyed getting a chance to speak to you. There's a lot of a lot of wisdom that in the sense of A lot of trail runners I've spoken to so far have not come from a running background, at least not in the intensity that you have. And so you've gone through the trials and tribulations that a lot of the top end of the sport are having to go through right now. where you've Obviously, you're still learning and you're never going to get it right every time, but you've you've got this idea of where your best performances will lie behind. And I think my experience is that the majority of people
02:03:15
Speaker
when they come from that same perspective of joy, fun, removing pressure and just like the outcome is the outcome, but just turn up with curiosity and it go for it. That's when our best days lie. So if anyone's listening takes that away, I think you're going to be in a pretty good stead. Yeah, awesome. No, it's been fun.
02:03:29
Speaker
Perfect. thank you All right, thanks so much. We'll catch soon. Catch you. Have a good one. Thanks much for listening to that episode with Nathan Pearce. I said in the intro how much I think that everyone was going to get out of this one, how much was action and packed into it, and it definitely did not disappoint. There was so much to Nathan's story that I had no idea of and that I'm really glad we got him on and had that time to talk. He made two hours absolutely fly by and as I said at the end, I could so easily have kept that conversation going for many hours more. If, like me, you got something from this and you think that there is somebody else on top of your mind that would also get a lot from Nathan's perspective, his story, or just find the topics we covered really interesting, please do pass it on to them. It matters a lot to us and also it shows Nathan how much you support his story and him coming on. And if you have the time, please go give us a rating wherever you listen your podcast players. It really helps the show grow and for more people like Nathan to get their story shared.
02:04:24
Speaker
All right. I will catch you guys all on the next one.